The issue of tolerance

[Inna]

We constantly read posts about they said this or they said that, how rude, how intolerant, how.......

But I seem to get the point that world will always treat "Man in Skirt" with a radical, critical and puzzled opinion. So passability is a must, and telling one self that such is only in the attitude is really rubbish considering the weight of degrading and criticism coming daily from onlookers and those who like to force their opinion on an individual despite her non threatening stance.
Living in the more tolerant area brings on less stressful weight, but then our own dysphoria does the rest.

Being able to live now a life of a woman, short of few perks, but at least visible to others as I am, a woman nevertheless, makes me realize how precious this realm of passablity is! If I could fight for a single procedure government would pay for, I would hands down fight for FFS for every M2F individual to have their procedure paid for.

There had been slew of discussions re: SRS versus FFS but even though some do feel such grave discomfort in having the appendage still present, their place in society does not change dependent on SRS but on FFS!


This is my personal opinion, and I am sure, some will have a different take on such, so please let me know what's on your mind when it comes to hardships we must face being spotted as the inbeetweeners?????

[Aprilrain]

I think you nailed it. If you need FFS you NEED FFS. No amount of courage, hope, grace, and that all to bandied around word "confidence" is going to make you look like a woman if you are unlucky enough to have a normal male face. Some TSes are luck enough to have been born with an abnormally female looking face but they are the exception rather than the rule. I have met several TSes, in person, who believed they did not need FFS but i beg to differ!

I had to chuckle to myself the other day. I was shopping at Macy's and a man was with his wife who was shopping, he seemed anxious to leave when he spotted someone he knew. She said, jokingly, are you shopping in the woman's section now? to which he replied, jokingly, yeah I have a big secret. HA HAs all around. Meanwhile I was doing my thing no one the wiser to my birth sex. I couldn't help but wonder how that exchange would have gone a year ago when I was a hot mess in a dress with a wig and socks for boobs!:lol:

[Julia_in_Pa]

Inna,

Tolerance is rarely shown by the Transgender community towards the establishment of society and the social norms of such.
Tolerance is also rarely shown by the Transgender community towards the Transsexual and Intersexed communities.

Accept us!!! is the mantra repeated over and over and over again by those that do not subscribe to the gender binary that is the standard.
I'm a woman today!!! Tomorrow who the hell knows is common place by those that demand respect and give none.
The false premise of humans being gender fluid is both dangerous and damaging towards those that have transitioned and have moved on yet are haunted by the inevitable electronic history file of a life once forced to be lived.

I am the biological representation of what a " Inbeetweener " is.
I'm Intersexed and currently retain my male genitalia and my C cup breasts while living for the past five plus years as the woman I am.

I subscribe to the gender binary in presentation.
I look like a woman,smell like a woman, walk and talk like a woman. I do not attempt to wear a suit and tie one day and demand my employer accept me wearing a dress and heels the day after that.

Society and it's views are fluid but move at a snails pace.
Shoving anything down the throats of the average American makes one fool hearty and dangerous not only to themselves but to those that have to share a history with them like myself.

Rome was not built in one day nor will trans acceptance be fully embraced as a societal norm anytime in the near future.

In the interim period transitioned Transsexual and Intersexed people will continue to be labeled deserters by those that hold anger and envy in their hearts and the Transgendered community will continue to make headlines in the strange but true news columns of online and print media across the globe.

[Traci Elizabeth]

You are right that there are two camps. One stating that FFS is more important while the other proclaiming SRS is most important.

As our beloved Kate often proclaims "women do NOT have penises" which is true in my book and I am sure most others. When comparing FFS vs. SRS I am reminded that their are beautiful natal women, there are average looking natal women, and there are butt ass ugly natal women and everything in between. Some have hormones issues which requires them to shave parts of their face. Some have raspy voices or very low pitched voices. Some are really tall and some are really short. Some are muscular and some are flabby. Some are youthful looking and some are prune faced. But the ONE thing they all share is that they do NOT have penises.

Add to this that MOST (not all but most) humans in their golden years all look similar to each other and the differences between a male and female face becomes far less determinable.

Viva la SRS!

[LeaP]

I think you nailed it. If you need FFS you NEED FFS. No amount of courage, hope, grace, and that all to bandied around word "confidence" is going to make you look like a woman if you are unlucky enough to have a normal male face.

Yup. There was a trans woman at the gas station a couple of days ago. Unlikely to be a CDer due to the trach scar. Definitely needed face work. It didn't help that she was built like an NFL lineman, either, but honestly, her presentation was good enough that if her face had some work, it would have been fine.

[JohnH]

I subscribe to the gender binary in presentation.
I look like a woman,smell like a woman, walk and talk like a woman. I do not attempt to wear a suit and tie one day and demand my employer accept me wearing a dress and heels the day after that.
.

Right off the bat - I will NOT wear a suit and tie unless if it is absolutely necessary! I wear something androgynous for business attire with Hawaiian shirt and slip on shoes, along with a femme haircut and sometimes with inconspicuous lipstick. I definitely smell like a woman and have breasts. I am working on my speech pattern, which will NOT include raising my voice pitch (at 80-100 Hz).

For casual wear in warm weather I wear a denim skirt along with sandals and a T shirt.

I am accepted by the vast majority of people with those presentations. Thank goodness this is not the 1950's when the dress and hairstyle between the genders were so radically different.

Yes, I do have a penis, and I have no plans at all to have SRS. Not to criticise others, but that is the reason for myself to retain my male marker and my real masculine name. After all there are genetic women that have masculine names.

John

[MC-lite]

As far as M2F goes, women are held to a higher standard than men as far as looks go. The addage "Life is a fashion show" is demonstrated in society everywhere you turn and look. If you're perceptive, you'll notice women checking each other out.

They're not all lesbians; sexuality doesn't even come into the picture (well...maybe in some isolated cases.) It's about the clothes, and the way they look and fit. Some women will even make statements like "Those shoes are cute", or "That dress is nice".

That's the positive end of the spectrum.

The other side (the dark side) is resentment and petty jealousy, or just feeling embarrassed for the other woman. "She's as big as a house! How could she wear that outfit?!?" or "She's a little old for that outfit"

The most common mistake that I've seen TSes make is not dressing their age. That, coupled with "Man Face" is bound to bring acerbic remarks and ultimately trouble.

I hate to say it, because I can't stand the fashion industry and the way that the foster feminine insecurity for the sake of selling clothes, but if you don't look good in the outfit, then don't wear it.

I have some "Man Face", but I dress like a woman in her mid 50s. Which get's me Ma'amed more than Sir'ed.

:Miki.

P.S.: What Traci said!

[Julia_in_Pa]

To add concerning FFS and SRS.

I do realize and have known those that have had so much angst over having the incorrect genitalia it held no bearing that their faces appeared like old catchers mitts.

My answer is always the same however; In public no one sees your vagina but they sure as hell see your face.


Julia

[Kathryn Martin]

There had been slew of discussions re: SRS versus FFS but even though some do feel such grave discomfort in having the appendage still present, their place in society does not change dependent on SRS but on FFS!


This is my personal opinion, and I am sure, some will have a different take on such, so please let me know what's on your mind when it comes to hardships we must face being spotted as the inbeetweeners?????

I bot agree and disagree with you on the point quoted. Pass ability is an important aspect of being able to lead a full life as a transsexual person. I have always advocated that a transsexual needs to achieve the closest approximation to physically becoming female that they can. As with all women, some of us are graced with features and bone structures that require little if any alterations to look passable. FFS is required for those of us that must overcome physical features that have been ravaged by testosterone to be passable and find social acceptance. This is something that is true for every transsexual but it is related to the aspect of social acceptance. The emotional issues are more collateral, because if social acceptance were obtainable without many of us would not chose surgery.

SRS is not something that we do for social acceptance. Having just gone through this process if no one ever knew of found out about my SRS it would have been just as necessary as it is with many people knowing about it. This surgery is just for me, completing me as a woman physically. In this sense my place in society is dependant on my passability, my peace in me is dependent on SRS.

I believe that both are important but SRS is something that healed me even if it did not make me passable in society.

[Inna]

Thanks for replies ladies, as I wrote the OP my intent was on the question of tolerance in regards to visual stimuli amongst societal critical eye, I only mentioned SRS as to alert everyone to the personal nature, and NOT visual nature of femaleness, as very well put by Kathryn.


As to the Original question at hand, hardships of passing and a weight of FFS procedures so amazingly helpful in altering visual clues.

It almost seems clear to me that sometimes we tend to waver the right to the full womanhood because we our selves, perhaps subconsciously, feel not worthy such status. I was once at that place, and however did everything in my power to proceed as far as my imagination soars, I felt my self a Transsexual. Only recently I have realized that I am a woman, and have the right of feeling as a full on, sensual female being, however I also realize that none of it would had been possible without utmost 100% passability.

[SandraAbsent]

I also agree that if you need FFS, you need it. I know because I have heard feedback through the rumor mill that some of the trans people I know dislike me because for the most part, I pass. I view my self as extremely lucky. A little incision for a trachea shave is about all I really need done to my noggin. This brings to question some other things though. What people often don't know is what I have had to go through to intentionally loose muscle mass, re-learn my posture, re-learn my body movements and body language, re-learn my voice, basically re-learn my whole life. They dont take into consideration when criticizing me for having "passing" privilege, that I have spent countless hours restoring my face and skin, or that I've spent countless hours ensuring that my hair is well taken car of and styled with the "intention" of disguising certain things. On the smallest of levels, they dont know the hours spent making sure my closet matches what gives my "male" body, the best "female" presentation. You see although I have not experience the "privilege" of surgeries or hormones, I have spent more time and energy on myself than most of the people I hear complaining that I pass and they don't. So in simple terms you cant just throw on a skirt and a wig and expect people to take you seriously, if you haven't taken yourself seriously yet. This is where confidence does come in to play. If you take yourself seriously and spend the time to improve yourself, of course you will be more confident. Because even though your face is out of line, and your body still needs some work, you will know that you've put your best foot forward.

As an inbetweener (is that a word? ok we'll role with it) the biggest thing that gives me away is my frame, oder, and sometimes my brain and the way it reacts to things. SRS is at the end of my priority list and so is anything regarding FFS. For me its 100% imperative that I start hormones. The issues I have with myself and my own confidence to pass lies in what is typically resolved for most trans people when the hormones are tipped over to the other way. Agreed, no one see whats between my legs or under my top. What they see is my face, my posture, my movement. The smell a man, if I havent made sure to cover it up. The hear a man if I slip with my voice. Most importantly, they experience a man if I allow my chemistry to determine my behaviors. This is why we are transsexual after all. Our chemistry is different than our thought patterns. Unfortunately if we let chemistry win, we will get read every time. My end goal is to be received as a woman. I already get that alot in my own little world. It will only get better as I progress, I HOPE :) Ok thats it...rant over.

[kellycan27]

I agree that FFS and SRS are both important physically and socially, but i believe that having FFS first has it's advantages. If one can look the part and fly under the radar ( for the most part) it may not quell the GD, but in can go a long way in helping one cope with it in the interim. Although I will agree that having SRS may not be something that we do for social acceptance there are none the less some social aspects. I have a lot of GG friends only one of which knows about my past. Being relatively young and socially active there are a lot of times when say.. shopping at the mall (sharing a changing room). clubbing or restaurants ( going to the ladies room together) going to the beach, going swimming hanging out with other couples and sitting in the jacuzzi, etc... where I find myself in a state of undress in the presence of other women. Being pretty much the same.. (looking anatomically the same) plays a major part in being accepted in society. Maybe not society as a whole, but at the very least the society that exists in my own little slice of heaven. And lets not forget the social aspects of SRS when it comes to dating and relationships. So while having SRS may not be the holy grail, the social ramifications can play a big part.

Kel

SandraAbsent While having a great deal of self confidence may help people go along way in getting out there and running around. What people here are saying is that all the self confidence in the world isn't going to "make that person on the other side of the counter" say.. that's a woman... if they don't look the part. Self confidence and believing in your self in and of themselves won't help you pass muster to the casual observer.

[ColleenA]

My BFF and I met and became friends shortly before she began her surgeries. Given her facial appearance, I encouraged her to do FFS before SRS. This turned out be beneficial in at least two ways. First, as many here have indicated, her new appearance made a distinct change in how she was perceived and treated by others. This in turn improved her self-esteem and thus reduced her anxiety in social interactions markedly.

Second, after she did have her SRS, there was a complication that necessitated a follow-up corrective surgery four or five months later. Had she had SRS first and then this happened, it would have delayed her FFS that much longer.

[Aprilrain]

FFS is required for those of us that must overcome physical features that have been ravaged by testosterone to be passable and find social acceptance. This is something that is true for every transsexual but it is related to the aspect of social acceptance. The emotional issues are more collateral, because if social acceptance were obtainable without many of us would not chose surgery.

I disagree that the emotional benefits of FFS and any other secondary sex characteristic that can be made more feminine are strictly social in nature. I was DESPERATE to have FFS in the same way that some are desperate to have SRS not so much because of what others saw but because of what I saw in the mirror. Every time I looked and saw a male face It made me depressed. I still have issues with my boobs, hips and mid riff that are more devastating for me then seeing a penis between my legs. Probably because with the exception of Boobs which I will get before or during SRS most other male characteristics like height, big hands and feet etc. are difficult or impossible to over come.

As Kelly mentioned I see SRS as having a social benefit too, in terms of relationships and dating. My aversion to my penis really comes into play during those more intimate moments with my BF.

[Bree-asaurus]

As Kelly mentioned I see SRS as having a social benefit too, in terms of relationships and dating. My aversion to my penis really comes into play during those more intimate moments with my BF.

*sigh* ... that was the subject of discussion with my therapist today... *sigh again*

[arbon]

Since starting transition I have become much more sensitive to how much people are judged by how they look.

I don't know how many times people have in conversation compared me to other trans people they know (well, the other transsexual woman that lives in town mostly), but it has been a lot. Usually they were doing this in a positive way for me, implying I looked better, or more natural, or whatever. It is really sad, annoying, irritating when people have done this. But it has really illustrate the truth about how people do judge by looks to me.

My sharing this here does not mean that I think I pass, or am better then this other trans woman. because I don't pass, and I am not better then her (she has such amazing character, integrity, and strength in her self it blows me away) . I can usually pass in a brief interaction, but get into a lengthier / close up conversation and people will start questioning, I have to many masculine features. But I am not unattractive, or seem really off, even if not entirely passing. But she is a bit further away from that magic place that some here have reached in appearance then i am though, and people out there note these thing - lumping us together as something "other" and seeing which one pulls it off better. Assholes! :) For all I know though, she probably gets the same comments about how she looks better then me, she probably does.

FFS and SRS - I want both so badly! But SRS will probably be it, I think want it a little bit more, and I think it is more financially within reach within the next 2 years. So I will press for tolerance and acceptance from them out there if I never get to that place where I can just take it for granted that when people look at me they see a woman and not someone who is trans. Unless I come into a lot of money, then I will do both.

[KellyJameson]

The difference between the relationship I have to and with my face and the relationship I have to and with my genitals has always puzzled me.

And it has given me pause in identifying as TS because I do not have an adversarial
relationship with my genitals. I think this is because I have always been indifferent to sexual relations but not social relations so I value how I'm perceived (social)but not on how I'm known (personal). I do not become close enough to others where it becomes an issue because I'm not sexual.

The rest of my body is what I make war on and if anything would lead to depression it would be not having my face look the way I expect and need it to.

First and foremost I must not see a male looking back at me in the mirror, before I understood gender dysphoria I thought this was simple vanity and it was not until I
understood the difference between my relationship to the words handsome and pretty that I started to understand there were deeper forces at work.

After the mirror that reflects back to me "me" than there is the social mirror where others reflect back to me "me"

Understanding gender dysphoria was like finding a key that fit into a lock. This lock was the mystery behind my strange behavior and when I realized my mind thought of itself as a woman I could than see why everything had been so difficult for me and what was the source of my confusion.

It brought all of the different parts that made no sense into a unified whole.

Sometimes I hear crossdressers talk about Pink Fog, I do not understand this experience on a personal level but I lived in another type of fog where I lived with a
mind/brain that is a woman and I have treated her and expected her to be a man because that is what I was taught to do so I tried to bend myself into a form that my mind could not become.

I wonder sometimes how I have managed to escape this insanity enough to think about it instead of always reacting to it. I will always associate the past as a time of feeling mentally ill, trapped in a mind that I could not escape where now I'm finally beginning to breath because I no longer feel trapped.

Maybe insanity is just a matter of perspective.

I could see how FFS and SRS are intertwined, they support and reinforce each other but for me what I see in the mirror is most important and it always has been because otherwise I would be repulsed by myself. I do not need to be a beautiful woman I just do not want to look like a male.

[Inna]

The difference between the relationship I have to and with my face and the relationship I have to and with my genitals has always puzzled me.



Kelly, you have said it so eloquently, some great words! thanks

[Pamela Kay]

I can see both sides of this choice because I had to make it a couple of months ago. I haven't had surgery yet but am scheduled for FFS the first week in October.

To me it was a choice of the lesser of two evils, which one could I live with the longest. While I'm becoming more self concious about my male parts all the time, my face is still the "man" that I and everyone else has known for 48 years now, and the one I have to look at every day in the mirror.

To me, transitioning with the same face would be just me in a dress and not the Pam I want to be seen as. This is compounded by the fact that I have to speak to groups of people in both small and large settings across the country, many who have already seen me as a man, so I have chosen to do FFS before SRS. I'm already giving up my wife, some family, and my home to pay for FFS and transition. I'm not going to give up my livelyhood and only means of support to leave everything behind and start over.

I liked the plan that Melissa (badtranny) had and am waiting until after FFS to transition, so I'm having surgery and recovering for about 6 weeks and then returning as Pam. This will also begin my RLE and I will begin saving for SRS and have that surgery as soon as I can save the money.

This way I only have to deal with the people that have known me as a man and my own perception, not mine theirs and everyone else in the world that didn't know me before.

The rest is out of sight.

[mcvste]

Many years ago gay couples were not accepted either. The world does not have to treat visible transwomen unfairly because it always had.
Things don't have to stay the way they are, they can be changed.

-Lara