The elephant in MY room is starting to make some noise

[Sara Jessica]

I'll make this as quick as I can, we shall see how successful am.

Those who know me in these pages understand that I have pushed many limits when it comes to minor body modifications (©VM ;)) and this has fed into my elephant in the room theory about how others perceive these things. For example...

Shave the legs, hmmm, he does ride a road bike you know. Does everyone notice? Sure. Anyone really say anything, not so much.

Wax the eyebrows, things kind of begin and end with a hmmm. Have been called out on this once. People would have to be blind not to notice that I've done something here.

Facial hair removal via electrolysis. We're doing a gradual clearing and at this point, the trees are non-existent on the entire cheeks and noticeably less-dense about the goatee area. Anyone else notice? Not so sure but then again, I do tweeze the rest when I go out so there is zero growth or shadow for about a week thereafter. That has to look a bit odd.

Put all these together and people could conceivably come to some sort of TG conclusion but i'd be paranoid to suggest that this would be likely. The elephant is in the room but she's still being good.

Now add the long hair. I'm here to say all bets are off at this time. I've said before, the elephant in my room has started to sing some show tunes. I'm thinking others are starting to hear her melody.

Case in point, meeting up with some friends a few weeks ago. I was the last to arrive when one of them greets me with "hey birthday girl". This is one of my best friends and I've shrugged off several similar comments in the recent past. This was simply another one.

The latest, was at a nearby restaurant bar watching game 6 of Kings vs. Devils (painful for moi given that I'm a Ducks fan). Was with another one of my best friends who I have written about in the past (ie - calling me out on my eyebrows, saying "your daddy smells like a girl", etc.). He is bugging me to get onto Facebook (guy mode, of course) of which I have no interest (I do have a "Sara" account set up that I've done little to nothing with). He says the other day "don't worry, no one will find out you're a crossdresser by going on Facebook".

My reply, "you promise?".

Lame but it was the best I could do.

I've promised myself of late that if any of my close friends were to call me out on this TG thing, that I would be honest in coming clean. Thing is, he missed the mark ever-so-slightly by using the term crossdresser so I'm keeping to my promise by not educating him on the nuances of the TG spectrum. Still, I'm quite sure he is seeing and hearing my elephant loud and clear at this point, probably waiting until I bite on one of his jabs. Someday I may do so but out of respect for my wife who desires zero disclosure to others, I will not go there until he hits the bullseye, so to speak.

I've had in mind to share this tale but there is a very important reason why I'm doing so now. Tis the season for some in these pages to let that body fur grow back and the advice is oft given that no one will notice, just stay smooth. This is not true. People do notice these things. The average dude does not sport smooth legs. But these days, people process it and with enough sporting reasons out there for smooth legs along with the modest metrosexual trend. They are conditioned to think little or nothing of it. But my tale is a lesson for those who choose to keep their TG nature bottled up away from those closest to them, keep piling the mods on as I have done and your elephant may be hard to keep quiet as well. It all depends on what your own personal situation is, how much you want out there.

[PretzelGirl]

I would say that the elephant is sitting on your friend at this point. I do like your rule about telling. I have a similar one that if I am busted in sight or word, then I will admit it. The tap dancing route has its own pitfalls and I don't want to go there. I did do it once and have felt guilty since. And someone else has mentioned my elephant in the room to me recently......

But people do realize something is up with the changes. The part is whether they know enough to do the math. Some people just aren't going to suspect this because it isn't in the forefront of their mind. And you have that extra barrier of the agreement with your wife. That does bring up a conflict. What if your best friend hit the mark closer and asked if you were TG? Now if you admit it, you go against your wife's wishes. That can be a tough thing to work through. When we choose to push things forward, we do cause ourselves these dilemmas that we need to think about in advance.

[Sara Jessica]

Great points Sue. Seems our elephants know one another!!! ;)


I would say that the elephant is sitting on your friend at this point.

D'ya think???

She's not being a very nice elephant.


But people do realize something is up with the changes. The part is whether they know enough to do the math.

Those who end up doing the math end sometimes end up solving the equation without knowing how they got there.


What if your best friend hit the mark closer and asked if you were TG? Now if you admit it, you go against your wife's wishes. That can be a tough thing to work through. When we choose to push things forward, we do cause ourselves these dilemmas that we need to think about in advance.

Good question. He's never going to hit the mark but if he were to simply ask a question instead of blurting out these smart-ass comments, I would be in a position to answer...truthfully.

I brought up the eyebrow comment to my wife after it happened. She brushed it off but I told her at that time that if anyone calls me out on it, I would be honest with them.

[Soriya]

But people do realize something is up with the changes. The part is whether they know enough to do the math.

This is true with any change people notice. The fact is though, people tend to go with their own math whether they are right or wrong. That is society today. If your not comfortable telling your friends, then don't. There is nothing wrong with shaving your legs or even plucking your eyebrows even if your not a TG of any kind. What about people who do these things simply because they like it? I started shaving all my body hair after a fitness contest years ago to show more muscle definition and when I did, I liked more that way thus I kept it and now it's a plus since I started dressing again. The only thing I don't shave regularly is my legs but simply because it's a pain. Electrolysis on your facial hair? So what. I have thought about it a few times myself and not for TG reasons but simply because it's a pain in the neck sometimes, not to mention I am blessed with good genes and when clean shaven, I look 10 years younger. I have no desire to ever grow any facial hair. Tried it a few times but ehh, not for me.

This is all up to you of course. If you are planning on going full time at some point then sure, you won't be able to avoid the disclosure at some point but if your not and really don't want to disclose your TG side, then don't. The elephant in the room in any case is always on somebody else, not you, for any changes you make to your image whether it's TG related or not. People are just naturally curious, especially if it relates to something they wouldn't do for themselves thus they don't understand. :)

[gonegirl]

Dear Sara,

I agree with you that people do notice things eventually. I am heading toward a similar situation, a day of reckoning if you will, as I shape my brows, shave my legs, and grow my hair long. The latter brings back good memories of my skateboarder punk days many years ago :)

I just wanted to say that I hope everything works out well for you and thanks for sharing this with the forum. Please let us know how things progress. Remember, a problem shared is a problem halved. :)

McKenzie

[docrobbysherry]

Some folks r just more observant than others, Sara. My ex is VERY observant! When she's coming by, I'm careful not to leave ANYTHING to do with Sherry out!

My daughter who lives with me part ISN'T! She completely clueless and self absorbed. Normally, those r great sources of friction between us. But, it works for Sherry! My daughter has bumped into our elephant a couple of times.

She said, "Where'd this dam thing come from? Well, it's NOT mine and I'm NOT cleaning up after it!" WHEW!

[Joann Smith]

the Elephant in my room is so damm big i do not know how anyone can not notice it ....yet nothing has been said ...not sure what to make of that ...But I do know that if any ones has the balls to confront me my response will be

"Damm what took you so long to ask!"

Joann

[Dana921]

I had to think of your friend saying it was basically ok to be a crossdresser (even if not the right terminology) means he is one himself, know someone who is (other than yourself) or an admirer! Obviously I have no way of knowing but it did make me wonder because of his statement. I do think we often give off signals, without us being aware we do so, that those being observant or more aware of certain traits for whatever reason, will pick up. In any case I hope it works out to your favor!

Dana

[Ally 2112]

I know i have an elephant how big it is im not sure ?.I have changed quite a bit, lost a lot of weight form my eyebrows shaved off my goatee i had for about 15 yrs and now i shave my chest all year long (legs winter only bummer ) .The hair has not changed much it's been long for a long time ,but i do have it cut in a bob style girls cut now

[Cherry Lynn]

I have been growing my hair out for about 4 years, shave my whole body but legs are only part others see, get my eyebrows waxed when I go to the hairdresser. I got my ears pierced 2 years ago and several months ago asked my hairdresser to color my hair. I usually wear diamond studs in my ears but have some small hoops with diamonds that I wear unless working. I get mani's and pedi's with color on the toes and clear on the fingers. I have had several comments about the fingernails, hair color, earrings and long hair but I do not think they have completely figured it out yet, I may be wrong. I think my elephant may be getting a little overweight too but it has not slowed me down yet.

[Kathi Lake]

Honestly? People don't like to see elephants. Most people don't like to see things that conflict with their viewpoint or would take extra effort for them to understand. They would much rather invent some other reason why these things are going on, rather than confront you on it. Result? They essentially toss a mental throw rug over it and decide to pretend it doesn't exist. So, for most of the people that come into contact with you, they deny your elephant's existence, and invent other reasons for these modifications - midlife crisis, changes in grooming habits, etc., as the truth is just too much effort for them to conceive. That's my thought, anyway.

Sorry this was so uncharacteristically quick (for me, anyway). I have to go feed my elephant.

:)

Kathi

[Beverley Sims]

I have admitted it on a couple of occasions and it was passed over as a joke and too unbelievable to be true.:)

[Sarah Doepner]

There are two parts to this issue; 1- other peoples perceptions of us as we change and, 2- our own awareness of how much the cumulative change we make in ourselves actually is. Kathi is right about a lot of the people we may encounter, the either don't notice, don't care or come up with a more convenient explanation that fits their world view. We can't control how anyone else sees or perceives us but we do need to have a plan on how to respond if they ask questions. This can be anything from flat out denial to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Everyone will have their own path and constraints there, spouse, kids, job, church, self-image and so on, so there is no single answer for that one. The second issue is one we control. We just have to recognize how much each little modification contributes to the overall image we send. It's so easy to feel like you are moving so very slowly because you only change one thing a week. But your friend or family member who only sees you monthly or once a year will see them all at once. As long as you are making changes and you are not fooling yourself, saying no one will notice, go ahead.

Sara, I guess there is a third problem as well. Like so many around here, you have such a pretty elephant, she needs to be fed, watered, exercised and seen to be happy. And if our elephant isn't happy, we ain't happy, so it increases the chances for this problem to surface. Good luck.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

:hugs:

tick tock tick tock....

[Sara Jessica]

This is true with any change people notice. The fact is though, people tend to go with their own math whether they are right or wrong. That is society today. If your not comfortable telling your friends, then don't. There is nothing wrong with shaving your legs or even plucking your eyebrows even if your not a TG of any kind. What about people who do these things simply because they like it? I started shaving all my body hair after a fitness contest years ago to show more muscle definition and when I did, I liked more that way thus I kept it and now it's a plus since I started dressing again. The only thing I don't shave regularly is my legs but simply because it's a pain. Electrolysis on your facial hair? So what. I have thought about it a few times myself and not for TG reasons but simply because it's a pain in the neck sometimes, not to mention I am blessed with good genes and when clean shaven, I look 10 years younger. I have no desire to ever grow any facial hair. Tried it a few times but ehh, not for me.

This is all up to you of course. If you are planning on going full time at some point then sure, you won't be able to avoid the disclosure at some point but if your not and really don't want to disclose your TG side, then don't. The elephant in the room in any case is always on somebody else, not you, for any changes you make to your image whether it's TG related or not. People are just naturally curious, especially if it relates to something they wouldn't do for themselves thus they don't understand. :)

Outstanding advice Soriya. It serves to remind me of the obvious, that I'm under NO OBLIGATION to disclose ANYTHING if I don't want to. My appearance is my business and what others perceive and think is theirs.

Still, it will be an interesting day when I do get specifically called out. If this is pulled in a "Jeopardy" fashion (phrased in the form of a question), then I do think I'll stick to my plan and let honesty prevail.


I had to think of your friend saying it was basically ok to be a crossdresser (even if not the right terminology) means he is one himself, know someone who is (other than yourself) or an admirer! Obviously I have no way of knowing but it did make me wonder because of his statement. I do think we often give off signals, without us being aware we do so, that those being observant or more aware of certain traits for whatever reason, will pick up. In any case I hope it works out to your favor!

Dana

I know that it's hard to peg a person for what they might do when no one else is looking. For example, if it were to come out to one of my friends that I am TG, there'd be no real shock in that. After all, just look at my appearance. Yet with this particular friend, I would be absolutely floored if he were any sort of TG himself, let alone an admirer. He is a guy's guy who can be so very happy laying on a raft in my pool with a beer in hand patting his moderately rotund (and extraordinarily hairy) belly, just as proud as he can be. And I can pretty much guarantee that the only TG he knows is me, even if he is not quite certain yet.


Honestly? People don't like to see elephants. Most people don't like to see things that conflict with their viewpoint or would take extra effort for them to understand. They would much rather invent some other reason why these things are going on, rather than confront you on it. Result? They essentially toss a mental throw rug over it and decide to pretend it doesn't exist. So, for most of the people that come into contact with you, they deny your elephant's existence, and invent other reasons for these modifications - midlife crisis, changes in grooming habits, etc., as the truth is just too much effort for them to conceive. That's my thought, anyway.

Sorry this was so uncharacteristically quick (for me, anyway). I have to go feed my elephant.

:)

Kathi

I generally agree with you about elephants. People will automatically default to that which is familiar in order to provide some sort of explanation and then they move on. The question is whether there is a tipping point where more thought is required of them and the TG thing comes into play. I guess my point is that I think I've gotten to that point with at least some people.

BTW, I hope your elephant is happy and well-fed!!! ;)

And both of these comments made me smile....



Sara, I guess there is a third problem as well. Like so many around here, you have such a pretty elephant, she needs to be fed, watered, exercised and seen to be happy. And if our elephant isn't happy, we ain't happy, so it increases the chances for this problem to surface. Good luck.


:hugs:

tick tock tick tock....

[tara t]

i've changed a lot recently as well. my elephant is starting to sing a bit too . i'm undecided if its a good or bad thing .

[Sophie_C]

I say joke but don't deny. Sure, you're girly. Of course, right. ;) The humor gets people's guards down while simultaneously getting them used to it, without the fear of having it so head-on.

[KellyJameson]

Hi Sara

I really enjoyed these words of yours.

Friendship can be difficult sometimes because the friendship is invested in maintaining the status quo. We are judged by the company we keep and those who wish to be seen in a certain way will associate with others that support this.

They value you and try to keep you the same so that they do not have to change.

It seems like we are always confronted with a choice between two forms of pain.
Living truly and possibly alone or living false but surrounded by others.

I also think this is an illusion and that it is possible to live truly and be surrounded by those that love us but we must first find the strength to become comfortable with
loss. Loss of friends, security and a bought measure of inner peace that is dependant on being what others want of us.

Our lives become like a piece of fabric that is torn in half when we move from being
what others know to what they do not know and to the degree they value the friendship they will resist your changes.

Only those who have gone walked threw the fire of becoming who they were destined to be will understand the importance of allowing you to be who you were meant to be.


"If a person does not keep pace with their companions, perhaps it is because they hear a different drummer. Let them step to the music which they hear, however measured or far away". Henry David Thoreau

[Marleena]

Sara the problem with elephants is they take up a lot of space and are hard to contain. They will get noticed eventually and they're hard to explain away. Some will understand having her and some won't. I don't think you can hide her forever.:)

[Joann Smith]

Honestly? People don't like to see elephants. Most people don't like to see things that conflict with their viewpoint or would take extra effort for them to understand. They would much rather invent some other reason why these things are going on, rather than confront you on it. Result? They essentially toss a mental throw rug over it and decide to pretend it doesn't exist. So, for most of the people that come into contact with you, they deny your elephant's existence, and invent other reasons for these modifications - midlife crisis, changes in grooming habits, etc., as the truth is just too much effort for them to conceive. That's my thought, anyway

Sorry this was so uncharacteristically quick (for me, anyway). I have to go feed my elephant.

:)

Kathi


I would agree with this whole heartly ...I know for a fact that all of my sisters have felt my bra clasp when they give me a hugg ...they even rub it ...but yet no question ...no comments nothing .....My big brother once called me on it ....then backed off and refused to listen to my response ....he said ..."you know what ....I do not even want to know...you and your wife are the freakiest couple i know ....nevermind'.. and he has not brought it up again since ...


Joann

[Inna]

great story and an awesome tail of coming of age so to speak, slowly approaching the "aha" moment.

At this point however, my elephant is more of a.......sugar ant, no longer threatening extinction but rather, always there because of the sweet things in my life. And what is most exciting, no one knows its there in the first place :)

[Kate Simmons]

Yeah, elephants tend to do that sometimes Honey. Especially when they are hungry. ;):)

[Sally24]

I understand getting to the point, especially with close friends, of not wanting to lie. If I was confronted directly I might just answer honestly, depending on who the person is. And I don't agree that you have to sustain the inevitable losses. Be prepared to lose people but I don't think it is impossible to keep all of them. So far in my situation everyone has been really great and understanding. We've told the important people in our lives and the others don't matter that much.

I think we all have to make choices on what kind of risks we want to take longterm. I do enough to keep myself sane. I now have pierced ears and fairly narrow eyebrows. I've had electrolysis and keep my body shaved. I occasionally grow my nails long with high gloss clear polish. All together they are enough to make people wonder but so far, no questions.

Good topic Sara!

[Leah Lynn]

Hello! I'm new to the board. I've read this thread with great interest, because it's a common problem. However, I've seen no mention here about "Metrosexuals", or "Manscaping". I live in desolation here in Iowa, but even here these are familiar terms. I don't work in an office, and dirt and grease are occupational hazards. I told a couple of the guys I work with that I was thinking about manscaping because of dirt and perspiration gatting matted in my body hair. Result is, it would be a nonissue for most. Sorry if this sounds disgusting, but I lost a great job a couple years ago, and I have a disabled wife to take care of. I gotta do whatever it takes to pay the bills.

[ReineD]

Still, it will be an interesting day when I do get specifically called out. If this is pulled in a "Jeopardy" fashion (phrased in the form of a question), then I do think I'll stick to my plan and let honesty prevail.

I have a question. :D

What would happen if you told your friend and he was perfectly fine with it even to the point of not being bothered if the two of you continued to hang out while you are dressed. Anytime. And what would happen if all your other friends felt the same way and your wife had a change of heart about others not knowing, after the realization there was no unpleasant social consequences to the knowing.

Do you think you'd move towards living full time?

[Sara Jessica]

And I don't agree that you have to sustain the inevitable losses. Be prepared to lose people but I don't think it is impossible to keep all of them.

While I don't believe loss is inevitable, your follow up sentence is pure gold!!!


...I've seen no mention here about "Metrosexuals", or "Manscaping".

I had to look back because I recently mentioned "metro" but it must have been in another thread. As for "manscaping", I avoid that term like the plague, mostly because of the root word...man.

Back to metro, it's a term that many are familiar with but it seems to have fallen out of favor in the media vernacular compared to several years ago. But the thing is, one can be coined as having metro tendencies (unsure what the "sexual" has to do with "metrosexual") and still be decidedly male in every way, shape & form (perhaps with the exception of the shape of his eyebrows). My problem (if this is really a problem) is that when I present in guy mode with my hair down, it tends to look way too feminine. The picture thread I posted yesterday shows my hair pretty much as I left the house. In guy mode, it tends to get me a lot of stink-eye from others for whom the hair just doesn't compute. So for this reason, and others as well, I think I project something deeper than mere "metro" that tends to really confuse others, including friends.


I have a question. :D

What would happen if you told your friend and he was perfectly fine with it even to the point of not being bothered if the two of you continued to hang out while you are dressed. Anytime. And what would happen if all your other friends felt the same way and your wife had a change of heart about others not knowing, after the realization there was no unpleasant social consequences to the knowing.

Do you think you'd move towards living full time?

I think it's a chicken and the egg thing.

IF I were to ever go full time, I would hope & pray that my friends would stand by me. I don't picture it the other way around. Part of the reason is that my thoughts of disclosure are not centered around being able to present as female around those who know me only as a guy. And just as I'm not so keen to have my wife accompany me when out and about, I have an almost equally difficult time envisioning going there with any of my friends either as long as I am part-time in presentation.

It has been questioned that if one is a part-timer in presentation, why disclose anything to anyone who has no need to know? In my case, I'm not seeking out disclosure for disclosure's sake. Instead, I'm looking to be honest in the face of a direct inquiry. So far that hasn't happened but the gist of this thread is how it seems I'm dancing on that knife's edge right now.

But Reine, the premise in your question is a most interesting one with a reasonable conclusion to be had on my wife's part. The problem is that living full time would be the equivalent of transition, something my wife has made it crystal-clear that would mean the end of our marriage. Thus the middle path that I find myself on.

[Kathi Lake]

Reine, in forsaking the middle path, Sara knows she would also forsake her wife, her family and the life she knows for the unknown. Many on this path are not willing to risk the 'bird in the hand' for a bush - so to speak.

Sara, keep on keeping on, sis! Live your life. Love your life.

Kathi

[kimdl93]

Yeah, I have to guess that your friend has picked up on the multiple signals by this point and he's close enough to the target. He may not be familiar with the technical nomenclature, but he probably has noticed everything else. And maybe there are other things, like mannerisms that also give some clues.

For example, ever since childhood, I've been told I throw like a girl, sit like a girl and even had a few comments on the way I walk. I have such light body hair that I don't think anyone notices the abscence of hair on my arms and legs...but if they have, no one has commented.

[ReineD]

But Reine, the premise in your question is a most interesting one with a reasonable conclusion to be had on my wife's part. The problem is that living full time would be the equivalent of transition, something my wife has made it crystal-clear that would mean the end of our marriage. Thus the middle path that I find myself on.

I guess this is what I was getting at. If your wife were on board with all of this, do you think you'd like to transition? Would you be prepared to live life fully as a woman, body parts and all?

I ask this not to put you on the spot, but because I believe that gender identity does run the full spectrum between the gender binaries. There are transwomen who know without a doubt they are women born in the wrong bodies (they want to get rid of their male anatomies), there are men who know without a doubt they are fully men and nothing else (they would never dream of presenting as a woman), but there are also people who feel they are some combination of both along a widely varied spectrum ranging from more male to more female, and their cross-gender expression is not propelled by sexual fetish motives. Unfortunately we don't live in a society that accepts this easily (this is even a difficult concept to understand in the TG community, hence the perceived hierarchy between post-op TSs and others, or the idea that one must be either a CD who does this for "fetish" reasons or a true TS. Even the term "true" TS implies that anyone who does not want SRS is somehow not "true".

So, you're my guinea pig, so to speak, and I'm picking on you with my questions. :p I'd love to know how you feel.

:hugs:

[Sara Jessica]

...So, you're my guinea pig, so to speak, and I'm picking on you with my questions. :p I'd love to know how you feel.

:hugs:

Alright, I'll play!!! :)

All things being equal, yes, I would transition. I would have done so long ago if I knew then what I know now. But I never look back with any regret because doing so would be the same as wishing my family away, something I would never do.

I therefore find myself on the "middle path", a term that I heard elsewhere for the first time and whether or not my adoption of it fits the intended meaning, this is what it's all about for me.

My earliest memories as a child were all about questioning my gender. Putting it as simple as possible, the prayers to wake up in the morning as a little girl went unanswered. Imagine that.

So life went on and of course I was utterly alone in this whole thing, certainly the only person in this world who felt the way I do. Well that is aside from the freaky portrayals on television. As I got older, I did many of the things society would expect me to do including getting married, building a career and having a family. Around the same time though I began to explore this wonderful world of ours through a feminine perspective but it wasn't until I was in my mid-to-late 30's that I entered what I call my renaissance period which continues to this day.

The middle path has to do with my commitment to all that I have built, perhaps at the expense of what may end up being an insatiable desire to transition. This means that I am not willing to take the chance that all that I have built would somehow survive transition. Maybe I am lucky that I can find fulfillment on both ends of the gender spectrum but at least the pain that I feel in my heart on a daily basis is inflicted only on myself where transition would certainly inflict pain on all who are involved.

Might some on the TS end of things think I'm less authentic by choosing to stay on this particular path? You bet. But I dare to say that IRL, I have no shortage of true friends, both in transition along with fully transitioned, who support my path 100%. So in a nutshell, I do identify as a TS insofar as how I would be defined on a TG spectrum. At the same time, even though many would deny me this privilege, I also identify as female by virtue of what has been in my heart from day one. Yes, that and a few bucks would get me a latte at Starbucks but I think you can see my point.

So here I am on this middle path, surrounded by so many like-minded friends who give me strength to carry on whether that be on those rare semi-easy days or more difficult ones such as today has been. At the same exact time but in a different place on the path (so they cannot see one another), I have my family for whom my personal sacrifice is made. I place my sanity at risk every day of my life, not to mention the vice that squeezes my heart more often than not, all to be surrounded by a love that I am simply unwilling to risk.

Having said all that, I think I'll go and give my little girl a kiss. She's the only one home right now :).

[ReineD]

Thanks for your response, Sara. :hugs: It can't be easy.

And you can give your little girl a secret big hug from me. :)

[Cherry Lynn]

Sara, I can relate to what you are going through 100%. You care about your loved ones and I imagine you care about people in general which seems to be a dying trend nowadays. Best wishes.

[Debglam]

You are not alone in this Sara. Believe me, I ain't asking for whom the bell is tolling. . .

You (I) can be pretty damn happy on that middle path! Hang in there!

Debby

[ReineD]

So for you middlepathers (MP - oh goody, a new acronym :D), how difficult is it to be in guy mode a bulk of the time? It must be unbearable if you are TSs who choose to remain with the status quo for the benefit of your families.

[Cherry Lynn]

So for you middlepathers (MP - oh goody, a new acronym :D), how difficult is it to be in guy mode a bulk of the time? It must be unbearable if you are TSs who choose to remain with the status quo for the benefit of your families.
Yes it is unbearable and I think that is the reason some talk about contemplating suicide. Some can handle the stress of MP'ing and some can't. Like the saying though, "life is a bit** and then you die".

[Sara Jessica]

Sara, I can relate to what you are going through 100%...

Seems there are quite a few of us out there who can relate. The shared experience makes coping so much easier.


You are not alone in this Sara. Believe me, I ain't asking for whom the bell is tolling. . .

You (I) can be pretty damn happy on that middle path! Hang in there!

Debby

I hear that bell daily. Sometimes it seems kind of far off in the distance and others it rings rather loudly between my ears. All we can do is remind ourselves that the middle path is a valid place to be and that true happiness can be found there.


About a week ago I posted about the "middle pathers". There are a bunch of us sitting on the fence for now. Quite a few people didn't want anymore labels though. Anyways, I added the new title to my profile.

The label debate always bothers me. Human beings use labels for pretty much everything whether we realize it or not, whether we profess to reject labels or not. I am often on the receiving end of labeling at two extremes of the TG spectrum. I'm often accused of transitioning by some, of being CD by others. Technically, neither is correct and without a label to describe where I am on the spectrum, it's nearly impossible to convey both what is in my heart and how I live my life.


So for you middlepathers (MP - oh goody, a new acronym :D), how difficult is it to be in guy mode a bulk of the time? It must be unbearable if you are TSs who choose to remain with the status quo for the benefit of your families.

The analogy that was shared with me several years ago by my friend Christine Daniels was that it's like the white noise on a television set that isn't tuned to a channel. Some days that noise is quite loud and others it kind of fades into the background. Regardless, the noise is ever-present.

TG is a concept that is sometimes really hard for some people to get their heads around. You have to figure that 99.whatever% of people don't give a second thought to their gender on a day-to-day basis, yet it's something that I'm reminded of constantly whether I like it or not.

Is it unbearable? There are moments when it seems that way but remember, part of the commitment of being on a middle path has to do with both balance and fulfillment. If living on the guy side of the fence is constantly unbearable, then perhaps transition is the better path. But conversely, whether I consider myself to be TS or female, finding a degree of fulfillment as a male doesn't take anything away from the truth that resides in my heart.

So to bring this full circle (welcoming my elephant back into the picture), while the changes I have made to my appearance might serve me well on the female side of the path, of equal importance (or perhaps even greater importance) is that these changes help me cope. The changes bring my outward appearance that much closer to what is in my heart which often provides some solace on even the darkest of days.


Yes it is unbearable and I think that is the reason some talk about contemplating suicide. Some can handle the stress of MP'ing and some can't. Like the saying though, "life is a bit** and then you die".

The stress that leads some to take their own life often has to do with coping with the entire concept of being trans and how we choose to deal with it. My friend Christine once wrote "transition or die" when what ended up happening to her was the opposite, transition and die. Whenever I think of her, I get very upset because she is a person who, based on things she said to me along with a healthy dose of Monday-morning-quarterbacking, would have been much better off finding her place on the middle path.

This entire TG thing offers a richness of experience that I couldn't imagine trading away for anything because it's all I have ever known. Yet at the same time, it can be a royal pain in the ass that can cause so much heartache.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Those who know me in these pages understand that I have pushed many limits when it comes to minor body modifications (©VM ;))

Heh, not so minor when they add up. :-)
\..

I do tweeze the rest when I go out

Ouch!


so there is zero growth or shadow for about a week thereafter. That has to look a bit odd.

Most won't notice, probably just think you shave often/keep a razor handy in the car/at work.


Now add the long hair. I'm here to say all bets are off at this time.

Me Da didn't figure it out even with the long hair. In fact when I told him about teh trans (back when ID'd as a CD), his reply was "so that's why you've been growing your hair."


Case in point, meeting up with some friends a few weeks ago. I was the last to arrive when one of them greets me with "hey birthday girl". This is one of my best friends and I've shrugged off several similar comments in the recent past. This was simply another one.

Don't shrug them off. Call her up and mention the comments and ask her why she's been doing them. If she mentions teh trans, you might want to be forthright and apologize for not opening up to her sooner (I'm assuming it's a her)


I've promised myself of late that if any of my close friends were to call me out on this TG thing, that I would be honest in coming clean.

Me too.


the advice is oft given that no one will notice, just stay smooth. This is not true. People do notice these things.

That's the advice I'd give...because "most" don't notice, although there are always those who DO pick up on such things.


:hugs:
tick tock tick tock....

Stop that! It's MY job to do that.


All things being equal, yes, I would transition. I would have done so long ago if I knew then what I know now.

You make the VM very happy saying that.


I therefore find myself on the "middle path", a term that I heard elsewhere for the first time and whether or not my adoption of it fits the intended meaning, this is what it's all about for me.

It's not an exact match, most self-identified middle pathers over taht the place that originated the term identify as CD's not TS's, though they do tend to have significant femme lives. Non-transitioning transsexual is what you are.


Might some on the TS end of things think I'm less authentic by choosing to stay on this particular path? You bet.

That's true, and it's still true applied to me too.


At the same time, even though many would deny me this privilege, I also identify as female by virtue of what has been in my heart from day one. Yes, that and a few bucks would get me a latte at Starbucks but I think you can see my point.

I'm a little more careful with the term woman.... I personally feel I haven't earned my womanhood yet.


So for you middlepathers (MP - oh goody, a new acronym :D), how difficult is it to be in guy mode a bulk of the time? It must be unbearable if you are TSs who choose to remain with the status quo for the benefit of your families.

The term originated on mHB by the way. :-)


The analogy that was shared with me several years ago by my friend Christine Daniels was that it's like the white noise on a television set that isn't tuned to a channel. Some days that noise is quite loud and others it kind of fades into the background. Regardless, the noise is ever-present.

The analogy I've used is that it's like a background daemon process on a Unix/Linux system. Sometimes it's higher priority, using more of my mental resources, sometimes it's lower priority and mostly sleeping...but it's always running.


yet it's something that I'm reminded of constantly whether I like it or not.

I think about gender...a lot.


So to bring this full circle (welcoming my elephant back into the picture), while the changes I have made to my appearance might serve me well on the female side of the path, of equal importance (or perhaps even greater importance) is that these changes help me cope. The changes bring my outward appearance that much closer to what is in my heart which often provides some solace on even the darkest of days.

They did that for me too....I...stopped doing some of them though....I may talk about that sometime, but probably not.

Veronica

[ReineD]

But conversely, whether I consider myself to be TS or female, finding a degree of fulfillment as a male doesn't take anything away from the truth that resides in my heart.

I'm relieved to read this, for several reasons. First, you and others who feel like you aren't spending half your lives hating it (however you want to define "it"). Second, if it was unbearable being in guy mode, I can't help but think this would shine through, resentments would build even if they were subconscious, and your families would feel the disconnect or the stress.



So to bring this full circle (welcoming my elephant back into the picture), while the changes I have made to my appearance might serve me well on the female side of the path, of equal importance (or perhaps even greater importance) is that these changes help me cope. The changes bring my outward appearance that much closer to what is in my heart which often provides some solace on even the darkest of days.

I didn't mention this earlier but my SO also has long hair (mid-back), long finger nails, pierced ears, shaved legs, clipped arm hair, etc. At first I took it that she had decided to maintain this in guy mode in order to make it easier and faster to just go out when she wanted to. It doesn't take her any longer to shower and apply her makeup as it does me. But now I know that she feels better about herself looking as feminine as she can all the time. I'm guessing there are aspects of her male appearance that she just hates. I also think that some people notice "he" is different from other men, maybe they connect the dots, maybe they judge, but then maybe they don't. We'll never know. My SO is out to all the people we know, whom we also know are open to the notion of gender variance.

My SO identifies as dualgender which I suppose is another word for middlepather. Who knows? Some people may feel just as she does and identify as TS.

[kimdl93]

TS, TG, MP, dual gender, elephant trainer...I guess we can call ourselves anything we like. The definitions are abstractions, but I like to think that we each represent a unique, multi-dimensional place in our universe that might more accurately be described by a series of coordinates.

[Debglam]

I guess this is what I was getting at. If your wife were on board with all of this, do you think you'd like to transition? Would you be prepared to live life fully as a woman, body parts and all?

I ask this not to put you on the spot, but because I believe that gender identity does run the full spectrum between the gender binaries. There are transwomen who know without a doubt they are women born in the wrong bodies (they want to get rid of their male anatomies), there are men who know without a doubt they are fully men and nothing else (they would never dream of presenting as a woman), but there are also people who feel they are some combination of both along a widely varied spectrum ranging from more male to more female, and their cross-gender expression is not propelled by sexual fetish motives.

Reine,

As much as some folks want to be exclusionary, I am absolutely certain that you are correct - that there is a scale of "discomfort" or "intensity" for those of us whose internal gender identity does not match their birth gender. Fetishists aside, I believe that this discomfort is alleviated by some degree of presenting in your internal gender, going all the way to needing to permanently transition to your internal gender. MTF 10-90%, 50-50%, 80-20%, whatever works, up to 100% full transition. Again, it is whatever works to alleviate the individuals gender "discomfort."

Now to answer you question: Complicated for me. I have done a lot of soul searching, looking back at my life (as accurately as one can do that), and think that given how I think I felt as a kid and a teenager, IF I had supportive parents and IF society was more like now and less like it was then, I would probably be a woman now. But. . .

I am in my mid 40's with a male body that has suffered the ravages of a male life all these years. I am madly in love with my wife, and yes, your question is "if she were onboard," but I am extremely satisfied, to be the man in her life and the father to my children. Finally, and I will admit that maybe it is a lifetime of being "conditioned" as a man, there are aspects of my life that I want to experience as a man and not as a woman. Maybe conditioning, maybe 40+ years of male privilege, whatever the case I AM happy and comfortable being a man at times. I still haven't figured out what percentage in what gender I need to be perfectly happy - I'm starting to think that it is a constantly moving target, but a life in two genders seems to be working.


So for you middlepathers (MP - oh goody, a new acronym :D), how difficult is it to be in guy mode a bulk of the time? It must be unbearable if you are TSs who choose to remain with the status quo for the benefit of your families.

Going back to a matter of degree, sometimes miserable and sometimes fine.

Bringing things back to the OP:


Seems there are quite a few of us out there who can relate. The shared experience makes coping so much easier.
:)


The analogy that was shared with me several years ago by my friend Christine Daniels was that it's like the white noise on a television set that isn't tuned to a channel. Some days that noise is quite loud and others it kind of fades into the background. Regardless, the noise is ever-present.

TG is a concept that is sometimes really hard for some people to get their heads around. You have to figure that 99.whatever% of people don't give a second thought to their gender on a day-to-day basis, yet it's something that I'm reminded of constantly whether I like it or not.

Thats it!!!! I read something that really resonated with me - Julia Serrano I think.

She was asked after she transitioned if she sometimes went into the wrong restroom by mistake. Her reply was that she never in her life went up to those restroom doors without consciously considering her gender and which was the "correct" door for her to enter. That hit real close to home!


This entire TG thing offers a richness of experience that I couldn't imagine trading away for anything because it's all I have ever known. Yet at the same time, it can be a royal pain in the ass that can cause so much heartache.

I think this is true. I think that if more people in this world were true to themselves, whatever that may be, it would be a better world.

[Launa]

The elephant in my room is also getting pretty loud, wrestless, cranky and is starting to hit the walls. Somedays its driving me nuts more than others. I know how you feel, somedays I want to scream!!!
I will probably be taking the middle path too over the next few years. I hope if my wife can handle it and I don't drive her insane or take any more years off her life in the process.

[Sara Jessica]

Don't shrug them off. Call her up and mention the comments and ask her why she's been doing them. If she mentions teh trans, you might want to be forthright and apologize for not opening up to her sooner (I'm assuming it's a her)

Wrong, my sage friend!!! This was from a guy, one of my best friends. He is one of the most witty people I know and no one is immune from his barbs. My hair just gives him fodder.


It's not an exact match, most self-identified middle pathers over taht the place that originated the term identify as CD's not TS's, though they do tend to have significant femme lives. Non-transitioning transsexual is what you are.

Right on, and I don't want anyone to think that I'm making some sort of attempt to co-op the term for exclusive use of the non-transitioning transsexuals of the world. I can think of one person in particular (and I think you know who she is) who is so very much like me with the exception that all things being equal, she would NOT transition. Yet she is on a middle path nonetheless in that her feminine presence in the world is in fact significant, as you put it. I think that is where the distinction is. One who is a closet-dweller cannot be on a middle path because they have not taken the important steps into this wonderful world of ours to explore what it is to be a social feminine creature. I would think the other caveat would be that there has to be some semblance of a balance to strike between two modes of existence, both female and male, which might intersect slightly but not completely by any stretch of the imagination.


I'm a little more careful with the term woman.... I personally feel I haven't earned my womanhood yet.

I'm right there with you Veronica. Don't get me wrong, I don't run around in my travels professing to be a woman. I'm read as being TG and if a conversation ensues and it comes up, I would define myself further within the TG spectrum. Where "woman" comes into play in my world is when I describe what is in my heart. There's not a TS hanging out in there, she is 100% female.


I'm relieved to read this, for several reasons. First, you and others who feel like you aren't spending half your lives hating it (however you want to define "it"). Second, if it was unbearable being in guy mode, I can't help but think this would shine through, resentments would build even if they were subconscious, and your families would feel the disconnect or the stress.

There are times when things feel unbearable, or when the stress of being trans does in fact boil over to a point where I do disconnect or the family senses the stress. That is just something which comes with the territory of being married to someone which issues such as these. My job is to do the absolute best I can in managing these issues to minimize that effect.


I didn't mention this earlier but my SO also has long hair (mid-back), long finger nails, pierced ears, shaved legs, clipped arm hair, etc. At first I took it that she had decided to maintain this in guy mode in order to make it easier and faster to just go out when she wanted to. It doesn't take her any longer to shower and apply her makeup as it does me. But now I know that she feels better about herself looking as feminine as she can all the time. I'm guessing there are aspects of her male appearance that she just hates. I also think that some people notice "he" is different from other men, maybe they connect the dots, maybe they judge, but then maybe they don't. We'll never know. My SO is out to all the people we know, whom we also know are open to the notion of gender variance.

My SO identifies as dualgender which I suppose is another word for middlepather. Who knows? Some people may feel just as she does and identify as TS.

You are in a unique place in that you are out and open to the others in your life. I have said before that despite my having such a rich circle of friends and amazing experiences in my female existence, I would still be considered "in the closet" when it comes to others in my everyday life knowing, thus the existence of my very own elephant!!!


Reine,

As much as some folks want to be exclusionary, I am absolutely certain that you are correct - that there is a scale of "discomfort" or "intensity" for those of us whose internal gender identity does not match their birth gender. Fetishists aside, I believe that this discomfort is alleviated by some degree of presenting in your internal gender, going all the way to needing to permanently transition to your internal gender. MTF 10-90%, 50-50%, 80-20%, whatever works, up to 100% full transition. Again, it is whatever works to alleviate the individuals gender "discomfort."

Very well said Debby.


I am in my mid 40's with a male body that has suffered the ravages of a male life all these years. I am madly in love with my wife, and yes, your question is "if she were onboard," but I am extremely satisfied, to be the man in her life and the father to my children. Finally, and I will admit that maybe it is a lifetime of being "conditioned" as a man, there are aspects of my life that I want to experience as a man and not as a woman. Maybe conditioning, maybe 40+ years of male privilege, whatever the case I AM happy and comfortable being a man at times. I still haven't figured out what percentage in what gender I need to be perfectly happy - I'm starting to think that it is a constantly moving target, but a life in two genders seems to be working.

I get a sense that your place on the middle path is a little less perilous than mine. I am happy with what I have built but all things being equal, there is nothing in my future that I would prefer to experience as a guy over doing so as a woman. Heck, I even have a really hard time referring to myself as a....well, you know. I'm hypersensitive to songs that refer to reveling in masculinity or even lyrical references to being male as this reminds me of a normal that I am not privy to. I have written before that I witness that "normal" male in my circle of friends and have moments of profound envy for these guys in that (I assume) they are part of the 99.whatever% of people who give their gender no second thought. I am uncomfortable being male, yet I have gotten this far doing it so I must have done something right. Still, there are moments when I wish I could be something that is impossible for me to be, even if only for those who love me the most.

[Kathi Lake]

I can think of one person in particular (and I think you know who she is) who is so very much like me with the exception that all things being equal, she would NOT transition. Yet she is on a middle path nonetheless in that her feminine presence in the world is in fact significant, as you put it. I think that is where the distinction is.My gosh, you know people like that?!

:)

Kathi

[LisaMallon]

All good points everyone has made. In my case the elephant has ran me over.:eek:

Everyone has different decisions and compromises to make, in my case it more more about energy.

I was spending more mental and emotional energy avoiding (though not denying) it, until it got to the point where it will actually be easier to transition.
The path of least resistance.

Would I have done it if my wife hadn't left me?
Well I probably would have tried to keep to the 'middle path' as long as possible, but I would not have been able to stop it (as she wanted in the end, though she initially supported me).
No ideas how long I might have managed it though. Or what it might have cost me. To take one thing, I suspect I was well on my way to alcoholism during that time.

You will do a lot for those you love and will do nearly anything you can to avoid hurting them.

This is so difficult and my heart goes out to all those who are in this situation.

[ReineD]

You are in a unique place in that you are out and open to the others in your life. I have said before that despite my having such a rich circle of friends and amazing experiences in my female existence, I would still be considered "in the closet" when it comes to others in my everyday life knowing, thus the existence of my very own elephant!!!

Sorry, I didn't word that right. I said, "My SO is out to all the people we know, whom we also know are open to the notion of gender variance", meaning that our friends who are open to my SO's CDing, know about it (mostly people in the LGBT community). We haven't told people whom we believe would be intolerant, such as coworkers, family members, and some friends, and my SO doesn't go out dressed in our small town. Luckily the next town over is only 15-20 minutes away.

[Sara Jessica]

I've enjoyed re-reading most of this thread this morning over coffee. What a wonderful conversation and exchange of feelings and ideas.

But now for a new wrinkle.

This "elephant" theory has a lot to do with pushing the envelope and that intersection of the female & male parts of our lives. Well a few weeks ago I went out on a weekday. It was a long and wonderful day and I did not return home until well after midnight, having to go to work the next morning. I took off my makeup and went to sleep. The next morning I did my usual routine including washing my face and skincare. I looked in the mirror and noticed that my eyes looked different, they looked better, really cool actually. But at that moment I couldn't really place why this was. I knew I didn't wear eyeliner the day before so it wasn't like I had that raccoon-eye thing going on. I just left well enough alone and went to work.

At the end of the day, this woman comes into my office and takes a seat. We were talking for all of 30 seconds when she says...

You're wearing mascara, aren't you???

To which I calmly replied, "no, I'm not".

The exchange over the next minute (which felt like an hour) was along the lines of "yes you are" / "no I'm not, I'm tired but I'm NOT wearing mascara" / "don't you be turning gay on me" / "please" etc etc etc.

Whether the conversation ended to her satisfaction that her perception was somehow incorrect, I cannot say to this day. Looking back, I wonder if others noticed something and put her up to this "inspection". Her and I go back about 8 years or so. I hired her and we're actually friends outside of work, her family and mine. She has no filter either so she may have simply done this on her own. Time will tell but I was not remotely tempted to use this as a means to out myself at work. Best to let my elephant continue her existence.

And by the way, as I was leaving work I looked into my rearview mirror and said to myself "holy s#*t, you ARE wearing mascara" as I pulled on my lashes and had black all over my fingers.

Moral of the story, be very careful with that makeup remover, lest your elephant might become that much more noticeable.

[Sarah Doepner]

Sara, it's just another example of how comfortable we get as we tip toe down this trail. Those itty bitty steps we take don't seem like much at the time, but they all add up and over enough time they look like giant elephant steps to someone who hasn't been with us the whole trip. Be careful, have a good explanation or at least be ready to take ownership.

[Janelle_C]

Sara you are where I'm headed. I've started to let my hair grow ten month ago, I'm wearing more jewelry, the hair on my hand have been gone for two years. I've been epilating my arms slowly over time now most of the hair is gone. I'm plucking my eyebrows more and more. I'm thinning my leg hair and going to go fully hairless soon. I'm trying to push the gender line as much as possible. I keep wondering how far I can go before people add two plus two, and what I would do if someone asked me about it. My goal is to come out in the future, how far in the future I don't know. Janelle

[SabrinaDubh]

Hi Sara.
I am in much the same situation as you, wanting to transition but not wantign to lose my wife. I have gone through some questioning and experimenting (took hormones for a little while) and envelope pushing. I realized I was pushing too far and had to step back when I was in the restroom at work fixing my hair (male mode) when a fellow walks in the restroom, sees me and walks out thinking it's the ladies room. He looked at the sign on the door, looked at me and walked away shaking his head. I realized than that I had to make some decisions. That was when I chose my wife over transition and backed off on my girl time a bit.

My wife and I have an agreement. I can dress pretty much whenever I want but no hormones, surgery, or coming out to people without consulting her first. Also, no dressing in the SCA, our hobby. (We had an unintentional outing that went poorly) These days I find myself dealing with the ever increasing feelings of wanting to transition, but not wanting to lose my wife. (Transition is a deal breaker, she will leave) I have to balance feminising my body as much as I can while still being male enough for her. Some days it's really really depressing. Others it's not so bad. My hair is long, legs are shaved, eyebrows tweezed. I am a bit fortunate though in that among my friends I am the weirdo even without the trans issues. To be honest, my friends are all a bit weird to begin with.

I hope you can find a comfortable middle path, Sara. (I'm still looking for mine) Thanks for sharing your experiences, they help other people, including me, a lot.

[Noemi]

Hi Sara,

Thanks for sharing this. You are right on the mark, people notice everything. It is really a question of how accepting they are.

I am a performer and work around theater enough to pick up on the details. Every thing adds up to the big picture, actors make subtle changes to convey the character.

I am really impressed with how far some of you girls have taken things.

BTW the Elephant singing show tunes is darling, thanks for that.

I can still pull off male because I have not gotten into the MBM's as of yet. I think about them..and would like to be very fem, actually be a woman. But I was born male. There is still a use for me being male and presenting as male I remain, there is a reason I am like this/trans gendered.

As the Artist, I tell people what to think. Me, I color their perceptions. My point is you can create what you like. The masses, you can not go by them.....

But I know you are also describing your relationships with friends and co workers. Those who know you over a span of time.

This, I go through with family, and some co workers, they figure I am gay...I do like men, but I am more of a woman, how they like men, usually I am alone.

But it is left at gay, but only to some, with others they do not see a thing, I am just another dude.
The dignity I carry myself with is what people that know me for a length of time respond to. I am a kind and respectful person. It does not hurt that I am a professional artist, they just write me right off there...say OK he's one of those artists....
So the years of starvation and those horrid part time jobs pay off LOL!!
♥♥♥
Noemi

[PretzelGirl]

Sometimes I think we are waiting for the elephant to be big enough to where we are pressed against the wall and can't find the door. I would say mascara has to be the #1 oversight. Gotta watch those midnight evenings on work nights maybe????

[Noemi]

I am rereading this excellent post. MP'ers. I am one. Things are becoming more difficult for me, always presenting as male. I see myself slowly changing my appearance to make myself more at ease. I always thought that I could control this and turn it on and shut it off, but as I age(early 40's)I am realizing that I continue to move in a feminine direction. I see I am at that age, tick toc tick toc of transition, it is scaring me, but I like how feminine I am feeling too.

People do notice. I had a confrontation tonight with a co worker(we are all really freelance people or sub contractors) that was fired off a job I am still doing, I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I had nothing to do with him getting canned..... but he called me names and swore at me and made cutting remarks about my gender etc. he was drunk..it was uncomfortable, he was soon asked to leave by people that came to my aid..I was just getting ready to kick his old ass(not really)

My point, besides wanting to share, is that he sees me as feminine, not a real man. I saw on his angry face the truth of what I am.

I am always smooth, except arm hair and always under dress, sometimes light make up, and am sashaying around and smiling at times, because that is me.

Not over the top flaming stuff, so I think.....

I am grateful to read the words of others here. It helps to center myself.
I am not looking to transition. I would like to stop right here, and just continue to dress up and feel feminine.

♥♥♥
Nomei

[StarrOfDelite]

I think the elephant increases or decreases in size depending on a lot of factors other than how the semi-closeted CD is presenting herself physically. Just these factors jump to my mind: Married or Single? Parents/Siblings/Children residing in the same immediate area? Blue Collar or White Collar job? Geographic Location inside or outside a metropolitan area? The CD's personal orientation towards being athletic and/or outdoorsy? Does the CD hang out with a lot of friends when in guy mode.

I think that the speed at which the CD is transitioning also makes a huge difference. Over the past 10 years or so I personally lost forty-five pounds of mostly upper body muscle mass, began shaving all over including my arms, eliminated a mustache I'd worn for 20 years, had both ears pierced, let my hair grow out to ponytail length, and began plucking my eyebrows moderately. It was all gradual but not by design, it was just what made me feel comfortable.

I work in an office/professional environment where I wear suits and neckties and dress shoes all the time, and don't hang around with a regular bunch of pals, and the only one who notices any of this is my ex-wife, who has never seen me dressed, but has a pretty good idea. She's the only one who's said anything whether sarcastic or complimentary. I can see, however, if I had, e.g., a regular nine o' clock Saturday morning tee time with golfing buddies, or a Tuesday night poker club, that someone might have noticed something by now. I do some serious bicycling, 25-50 mile runs, with a group, but they're all skinny and semi-hairless, too. The Ex- accuses me of using that as a cover for the shaved legs, btw. :-)

[Eryn]

So for you middlepathers (MP - oh goody, a new acronym :D), how difficult is it to be in guy mode a bulk of the time?

Being in guy mode most of the time is a necessity for me. It is functionally far easier than being in girl mode but not satisfying.

Guy mode brings home bacon and provides the utilitarian services that males are expected to provide for their family. Girl mode is how I can express myself creatively. It find it distressing to have to be out and about in guy mode while watching GGs enjoy their normal lives.

I don't think that this is completely rational, but that is the way it feels to me.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Sara, At some point the Elephant is going to push you out of the room and you will be out.

[Sara Jessica]

It's been a while since my elephant has had a need to update her tale. I guess that's the way it should be, or at least the way I'd prefer it to be. But I can't seem to buy a break from this friend of mine.

A little back-story. It's been darned hot here in SoCal. Summer started very slowly in that it was very mild for quite some time. Then it seems like about 6 weeks ago the heat returned with a vengeance and heatwaves of 100+ temps seemed to be upon us more often than not.

Usually during this kind of weather I would only keep a pedi when I go out & about, only to remove the polish soon after returning home. It is pool season and my elephant isn't about to start explaining colored toesies to anyone. Last Tuesday morning on kind of a whim I reapplied some color (A-Rose at Dawn...Broke by Noon by OPI) and I was able to keep this around until Sunday morning. Knowing my friend and his daughter would be coming over later to swim, I removed it. Then to ensure my removal would stand the test of keeping my elephant quiet, I got my reading glasses and went over it again, making sure to get every speck around the base of the nails and off of the cuticles.

Perfectly confident that I had sufficiently taped my elephant's mouth shut, I was surprised to hear from my friend while sitting on the patio...

Are you wearing nail polish???

Holy s#*^, I thought. There's no way he can perceive anything, is there???

When I asked why he would say that, he replied that my nails have a pumpkin-y color to them.

I replied that I wasn't and pretty much left it at that.

So what was it that he saw? How did I get busted for a non-existent pedi? Well I do have some discoloration due to longtime use of darker polish colors. This is usually evident as I come off of the fall-winter-spring seasons while pretty much having a pedi 24/7. Summer things get to "air out" and the discoloration tends to grow out so by this time of year it should be completely unnoticeable. Yet this year I've been trying to keep a pedi more often than not and this is the result despite the fact I use a good quality base coat every time I have my nails done or do them myself.

Sigh. That's all I can do these days. I would come clean to him in a heartbeat if I had my wife's blessing to do so. At this point though, he just keeps missing that bullseye by smaller increments at every shot. It's only a matter of time before he nails it.

[kimdl93]

I'd agree that your friend has definitely seen the elephant. . And I am sure you're right - as you've added the modifications, like the eye brows and longer hair, and now some discoloration from nail polish, you've provided much more distinctive tells. So...whats next? It seems that cat is very nearly out of the bag.

[Angela Campbell]

I can't be sure. I never have had much body hair anyway and no one even notices if I keep my arm hair very short and use peroxide on the hairs. My eyebrows have always been a little thin for a man so plucking them a little is not noticable especially if I have glasses on. I do not shave my legs but there is very little hair on them any way and from a few feet away you could not see any. I will soon shave them as soon as weather tell me no more shorts. What I am afraid of is the way I have caught myself acting more and more feminine in how I walk, stand sit and so on. I have to be careful around some people with that.

Since the 70's when gender got a little smeared, I have always worn necklaces and sometimes bracelets and such so no one notices that much. I have always wore clothes that were less masculine such as short pants...I never liked the long styles and usually went for shorter legstyles. I have also been losing a lot of weight lately...30 lbs so far...and the changes there are much more noticable than any feminine things. Truth is I have always been a little feminine and did a lot to hide that so I am pretty good at hiding that even though I am changing a little too. I do not think I will ever be able to go all the way to being a girl like I always wanted but my goal is to be able to pass as a man when around the family and workmates and to be a woman when I want to be.

[Pexetta]

he replied that my nails have a pumpkin-y color to them.

Your friend has suspiciously fine discrimination in colour words for a man... :heehee:

[Alice B]

Sara,

As you know my elephant is now free roaming our house and yard, since the entire extended family knows. Yet, it seems as if no one outside the family has a clue. Strange because I fully shave my body, have painted toe nails and wear ear rings all the time. But, no one at my golf club or other groups has ever said a thing. I just got back from 3 weeks in Scotland and the first thing I did was totally shave my body again and had a mani and pedi. Then I went to a reunion of lifeguards, wearing shorts and no a word or inkling from any one. Including my wonderful wife. Do I worry about the elephant breaking free? Sure. I think one of these day the elephant will jump in my pool and make a wave so big it will knock down the walls and run wild. In the mean time I'll try to keep the elephant happy and well fed. And hold my breath.

I have some free time from the end of October to the middle of November. Maybe you can come on down and leave your elephant at home as mine will cover us both.

[kristinacd55]

I think he thought you were celebrating halloween early this year!

[kimdl93]

Your friend has suspiciously fine discrimination in colour words for a man... :heehee:

I has the same thought....I mean, how often do you look at another mans feet anyway?

[Kathi Lake]

I mean, how often do you look at another mans feet anyway?Well, it's not that. Even the most imperceptive guy will notice something that is odd immediately and key on it. "Discolored toenails? Hmmmm, are those yellowish? Why. That's not right."

Kathi

[kimdl93]

I probably would notice yellowish toenails...but lingering hint of color...meh, not unless he was looking for it.

[jacky83]

In the movie "Just Like a Women" the main character blames his painted toenails on a cure for athletes foot.

[Abbygirl]

What a great post, I hate I am just now finding it. Sara, I just loved how you used the "elephant in the room" to make your point. Entertaining, and thought-provoking.

I think your post made me realize something about my "mods" as you put it. Usually when I get it in my head to make a girly mod, my first concern is "normal" appearance in everyday guy mode. But, I usually make the mod anyway and rationalize whatever it was on a very individual, isolated basis. By that I mean, I feel like I can get away with that ONE thing. Either it's not uncommon or it's easily explainable. Hair down to my waist. No problem. Both ears pierced, no problem. Does he smell like perfume? Naw, must be me, no problem. etc etc etc

None of those things by themselves are going to create an elephant. However, when I begin to look at the combined effect of long hair, pierced ears, necklace, polka dot cell phone cover, pink cigarette lighter, faint hint of girly shampoo/deodorant etc , I think for the first time it dawns on me that when the "mods" start adding up, the story begins to tell itself.

My elephant has answered her party invitation and found the room, but she is not sitting on anyone's lap or dancing with a lampshade on her giant gray head. She is sitting by herself, legs crossed at the ankle, politely sipping her tea. I think.

[PretzelGirl]

It's a fungus....No my little daughter painted them..... No I'm a MMA fighter......

I think the elephant has a nest . :-) Yep, know the feeling. Makes for some interesting moments. The big one will be when he centers that target and your mind has to make that quick decision on whether to say it or think about what your wife would say. That is a tough one to do in one or two seconds.

[Sara Jessica]

I'd agree that your friend has definitely seen the elephant. . And I am sure you're right - as you've added the modifications, like the eye brows and longer hair, and now some discoloration from nail polish, you've provided much more distinctive tells. So...whats next? It seems that cat is very nearly out of the bag.

That's the million dollar question. I guess stay tuned.


I has the same thought....I mean, how often do you look at another mans feet anyway?


Well, it's not that. Even the most imperceptive guy will notice something that is odd immediately and key on it. "Discolored toenails? Hmmmm, are those yellowish? Why. That's not right."

Kathi


I probably would notice yellowish toenails...but lingering hint of color...meh, not unless he was looking for it.

Just for the record, there was no hint of lingering nail polish color. And I know it sounds totally gross (eeeew, yellowish toenails!!!) but it's very subtle. It's not like I have some kind of rampant fungus going on. But at the same time, as subtle as it is, it's still noticeable.

Kind of.

Yes, I think his perceptive abilities have been heightened by my other modifications.


It's a fungus....No my little daughter painted them..... No I'm a MMA fighter......

I think the elephant has a nest . :-) Yep, know the feeling. Makes for some interesting moments. The big one will be when he centers that target and your mind has to make that quick decision on whether to say it or think about what your wife would say. That is a tough one to do in one or two seconds.

Time will tell. He has come darned close to that target, that's for sure!

I've been kicking around whether to tell my wife what he's been saying over the last few months. I know I should. Who knows, she may say to simply tell him and get it over with.

OK, I doubt that one!


What a great post, I hate I am just now finding it. Sara, I just loved how you used the "elephant in the room" to make your point. Entertaining, and thought-provoking.

I'm glad you enjoyed this thread Abby. And the rest of your comment really captures the essence of Elephant Theory in our TG world.


Sara,

As you know my elephant is now free roaming our house and yard, since the entire extended family knows. Yet, it seems as if no one outside the family has a clue. Strange because I fully shave my body, have painted toe nails and wear ear rings all the time. But, no one at my golf club or other groups has ever said a thing. I just got back from 3 weeks in Scotland and the first thing I did was totally shave my body again and had a mani and pedi. Then I went to a reunion of lifeguards, wearing shorts and no a word or inkling from any one. Including my wonderful wife. Do I worry about the elephant breaking free? Sure. I think one of these day the elephant will jump in my pool and make a wave so big it will knock down the walls and run wild. In the mean time I'll try to keep the elephant happy and well fed. And hold my breath.

I have some free time from the end of October to the middle of November. Maybe you can come on down and leave your elephant at home as mine will cover us both.

We both have zoo elephants except for your zoo is open to visitors. My elephant gets out but she usually has a tarp over her to get her outside of that circle of comfort before we let her roam free.

That said, I'm pencilling in a visit but my elephant is coming along. I hope it's still warm, she likes water!!! ;)

[Alice B]

If there is sun the water will be warm as the whole top of the house is solar panels for the pool. Look forward to seeing you again and meeting your elephant. Mine will be here, but difficult to see as he/she is invisable.

[Jamie001]

Why not just admit that you like wearing nail polish like a lot of athletes, MMA Fighters, Race Car Drivers and other men have done lately? It is no different than when men first started wearing earrings. Google "men wearing nail polish" and you will see how many celebs and athletes are doing it.

[Alice B]

Interesting. I'll check it out.

[Sara Jessica]

Why not just admit that you like wearing nail polish like a lot of athletes, MMA Fighters, Race Car Drivers and other men have done lately? It is no different than when men first started wearing earrings. Google "men wearing nail polish" and you will see how many celebs and athletes are doing it.

<begin/rant>

Jamie, I cannot believe you aren't sick of me refuting this post of yours that you probably have posted about 1,145 times (since that's all you seem to care about, colored nails). You have utterly failed to read, let alone understand the essence of anything that I have talked about in this little thread. All you have captured is "It is pool season and my elephant isn't about to start explaining colored toesies to anyone".

Think it through, just for a minute outside of your wonderfully colorful pedi world. I have illustrated a number of changes in my appearance that when taken alone might be dismissed. Put a couple together, alright, my "secret" might still be safe. What I'm talking about is the piling on of these changes and how others perceive them. You know, "walks like a duck...", or in this case, an elephant.

Read Abby's post if nothing else. She captures the essence very succinctly. In the meantime, I'm not inclined to add colored toes to my everyday "out & about" repertoire any time soon no matter how many Nascar drivers or MMA fighters might do so. I don't race cars for a living, nor do I have any desire to fight. You go ahead and blaze your trail, whatever that might mean to you. Gosh knows no one here has a clue as to what you are all about aside from proudly displaying your red toes in women's sandals for all to see 27/7/365.

<end/rant>

[Jamie001]

<begin/rant>

Jamie, I cannot believe you aren't sick of me refuting this post of yours that you probably have posted about 1,145 times (since that's all you seem to care about, colored nails). You have utterly failed to read, let alone understand the essence of anything that I have talked about in this little thread. All you have captured is "It is pool season and my elephant isn't about to start explaining colored toesies to anyone".

Think it through, just for a minute outside of your wonderfully colorful pedi world. I have illustrated a number of changes in my appearance that when taken alone might be dismissed. Put a couple together, alright, my "secret" might still be safe. What I'm talking about is the piling on of these changes and how others perceive them. You know, "walks like a duck...", or in this case, an elephant.

Read Abby's post if nothing else. She captures the essence very succinctly. In the meantime, I'm not inclined to add colored toes to my everyday "out & about" repertoire any time soon no matter how many Nascar drivers or MMA fighters might do so. I don't race cars for a living, nor do I have any desire to fight. You go ahead and blaze your trail, whatever that might mean to you. Gosh knows no one here has a clue as to what you are all about aside from proudly displaying your red toes in women's sandals for all to see 27/7/365.

<end/rant>

I am beginning to understand that there is a very significant difference between folks like myself including Butterfly Bill, and Sissy Stephanie that are just feminine guys that present as a guy but wear women's clothing and makeup and the Crossdresser that attempts to present as a woman. I am usually wearing women's Capri Pants, a fem hairstyle, women's sandals, nail polish and a women's purse. I am still not sure if I'm really a crossdresser because I just incorporate feminine items into my male presentation just as some women incorporate men's clothing into their normal female presentation. I am just a feminine male just like some women are Tomboys.

I feel that there there may be a lot less stigma associated with male that incorporates feminine items into a male presentation than a Crossdresser that attempts to appear and pass as woman. I believe that the Crossdresser that attempts to appear as a woman is much more concerned about being outed than a male that presents as a male but incorporates items of feminine clothing. In fact, straight males that wear nail polish, skirts, and other feminine attire have been in the new quite a lot lately. In my opinion, that is why men that wear skirts, nail polish, feminine shoes, etc are much more out there and open about their presentation than men that attempt to pass as a woman. Does this make sense? I believe that there is a very significant difference between a Crossdresser than tries to pass as a woman and the male that incorporates feminine items into his otherwise feminine presentation. As I spend more time on this site, this concept is being reinforced.

As for "blazing my trail" I believe that my trail can be summed-up as "Fashion Freedom for Men" and I blaze the trail by wearing feminine items as a man. I believe it is the road to acceptance of men wearing feminine clothing, just as women obtained their fashion freedom by incorporating masculine items into their overall presentation without attempting to appear as a man. I truly believe that if men wore some feminine clothing or makeup as men that crossdressing would be more accepted. The road is paved by men that are willing to incorporate feminine items into their otherwise male appearance and to wear those items openly. I believe that is the only way the crossdressing with ever be accepted by the general public.

[ReineD]

I feel that there there may be a lot less stigma associated with male that incorporates feminine items into a male presentation than a Crossdresser that attempts to appear and pass as woman.

It also has very much to do with two things: the circles that you move in, and your ability to accurately sense the reactions to your appearance.

For example, a young guy who is gay, has lots of gay friends, works in an environment that is open to gay men, and who lives in a place like San Francisco, will have a wonderful life walking around in capris, painted nails, and pink scarves ... but so much if he works in a business district in a more conservative city, or if he lives in a small town.

Also, some people are completely unaware of people's reactions to them. This is difficult to explain, but a person can be rather a loner, thinking that everyone accepts his unconventional appearance. He doesn't look to make friendships, and so he is satisfied with presenting an appearance that he finds beautiful but that many people in his particular milieu might find weird. If, however, he's in this same milieu trying to make friends and finds this difficult, he might decide to drop the scarf, the capris, and the painted toe nails.

I'm not making a value judgment on anyone's appearance choices, just saying that people who dress unconventionally had best be in milieus where this is tolerated, if they want to form bonds with other people.

[Sara Jessica]

Jamie, thank you for the thoughtful reply. And I apologize if mine seemed a bit terse but seriously, this is far from a black & white issue for many of us.

The easiest way for me to describe my POV is that I'm all good with the gender binary society we live in, I was simply drafted to the wrong team. My out & about life is tempered by the fact that the closer I get to home, the more closeted it becomes. This is not so much about me, it's all about my family. Hence my elephant as a metaphor for all of the things I have done to my appearance, not only to enhance my presentation when in the real world but more importantly, to help manage my own GID. These things when taken together put me out there at risk for being perceived as TG.

I have admitted elsewhere that it has taken a bit of effort to get my head around the mixed presentation individuals such as yourself and others you describe. Yes, we are all quite different when it comes to POV and practice IRL. Your angle is different from that of a CD'er who's might be different from a "middle-pather" (whether that MP self-identifies as CD or TS) which of course is much different from that of the transitioning TS, and so on. While I think I can "get" where your POV is coming from, I don't think it does much for the cause of other TG individuals who are out & about because really, it's apples & oranges. I'm not looking for a blurring of the gender lines. I don't look at other men and think they have too few fashion choices or that they need to wear makeup or nail polish. They are just fine the way they are, both aesthetically and the fact they are perfectly content being...men. The gender binary makes sense for most. We will always be outliers to some extent.

One final point. I'm guessing your being incredulous about someone like me who chooses not to present a colored pedi while presenting as a male might be similar to my feelings about anyone who chooses not to shave their legs. Having gone there without the world exploding (on both of our fronts), it's hard to imagine why anyone else wouldn't make the exact same choice. The difference is that everyone's personal situation is different and what works for you or I might not work so well for them. I could paint my toes today for the world to see and it might end up being "meh" to everyone else.

Or it might just be the straw that broke the elephant's back.

[Jamie001]

Hi Sara Jessica,

Thank you for your reply. As I spend more time on this site, I learn more about the CDers and the different mindsets that exist regarding gender. One mindset that I have the most difficulty understanding is the CDer that when in male mode is "all male" presenting a masculine persona, and when dressed they convert to fem mode. It is like flipping a light switch. In my case, I'm a male that is always in fem mode and cannot really switch to another mode. For the majority of my life, I have tried to force myself into playing the Masculine role and the result was always the same - depression and more depression that didn't respond to anti-depressant medication. It was a path for me that would not have a good ending. I am clearly in the minority on crossdressers.com because I really don't want to pass or don't care about presenting as a woman. My ultimate goal is for society to accept feminine males in the same manner that it accepts Tomboys. Hopefully, one day this will happen, but it will not happen if the vast majority of us are closeted. I apologize to you and other members here because many times I attempt to push folks here to wear fem items in male mode in order to push the envelope so that society can see that we are normal people and not freaks. I thank you for enlightening me to the fact that you and the majority of the CDers on this site are quite different from me and my mindset. I cannot expect you and other folks here to push the envelope in male-mode because that is not what you are about. There are other folks here like Butterfly Bill and Sissy Stephanie that are very much like me and they are already out there pushing the envelope in male mode. The problem is that the "fem male" (like me) is in the minority of a minority. In other words, crossdressers are a minority in society, and the fem male is a very small minority of the crossdresser subset.

:hugs: Jamie

[ReineD]

Jamie, I'm afraid I was rather harsh in my prior post. I apologize.

[Jamie001]

Jamie, I'm afraid I was rather harsh in my prior post. I apologize.

Hi Reine,

Thank you, however there really is no need to apologize. I understand that folks on these forums will not always my desires and goals because they are very different from the goals and desires of the majority of Crossdressers. There are not a lot of folks on this site that have the same goals, however I'm very encouraged that I have found several members that share my ambitions and goals. I'm always very pleased when a straight-male celebrity is photographed wearing nail polish, a skirt, or carrying a purse, however, what is discouraging is that you don't see the average everyday male emulating the celebrities. Just think about how long it took earrings for men to become mainstream after celebrities and athletes started wearing them. The average male has an ego that is to frail and therefore they won't emulate the celebrity for fear of being ostracized from the herd. It is the herd mindset that dominates the male mind because as a society, we create this mindset in little boys immediately after they start walking and talking. Anyway, enough of my rambling.

I'm really glad to have you here on these forums because I respect your perspective and always look forward to your insightful posts and responses.

:hugs: Jamie

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Are you wearing nail polish???

Holy s#*^, I thought. There's no way he can perceive anything, is there???

When I asked why he would say that, he replied that my nails have a pumpkin-y color to them.

I think he has some sense of the elephant I think.


Sigh. That's all I can do these days. I would come clean to him in a heartbeat if I had my wife's blessing to do so. At this point though, he just keeps missing that bullseye by smaller increments at every shot. It's only a matter of time before he nails it.

He's "YOUR" friend, right? Shouldn't it be your choice to tell. I'm not saying that you shouldn't talk with your wife first, but I think the final decision on telling him should be yours.


Your friend has suspiciously fine discrimination in colour words for a man... :heehee:


I has the same thought....I mean, how often do you look at another mans feet anyway?

Heh heh. You're thinking what I'm thinking.




I think your post made me realize something about my "mods" as you put it.

None of those things by themselves are going to create an elephant. However, when I begin to look at the combined effect of long hair, pierced ears, necklace, polka dot cell phone cover, pink cigarette lighter, faint hint of girly shampoo/deodorant etc , I think for the first time it dawns on me that when the "mods" start adding up, the story begins to tell itself.

That sounds familiar. I said something similar myself over at mHB a few years back, in fact I called the things like this "lite body mods"


Why not just admit that you like wearing nail polish like a lot of athletes, MMA Fighters, Race Car Drivers and other men have done lately? It is no different than when men first started wearing earrings. Google "men wearing nail polish" and you will see how many celebs and athletes are doing it.

But we are not Fighters or Drivers, and a few celebrities does not a change in cultural behavior make.




Jamie, I cannot believe you aren't sick of me refuting this post of yours that you probably have posted about 1,145 times

You're not the first, in fact I know Jamie and his "Fashion Freedom for Men" perspective from USENET


What I'm talking about is the piling on of these changes and how others perceive them. You know, "walks like a duck...", or in this case, an elephant.

Yep.



I am beginning to understand that there is a very significant difference between folks like myself including Butterfly Bill, and Sissy Stephanie that are just feminine guys that present as a guy but wear women's clothing and makeup and the Crossdresser that attempts to present as a woman.

Yep, and in fact you're one of the few people here I don't consider "traditionally transgendered". Haven't seen BB post here in a while either.


I am still not sure if I'm really a crossdresser because I just incorporate feminine items into my male presentation just as some women incorporate men's clothing into their normal female presentation.

Technically you're a crossdresser, but your basic motivation isn't the same.


I feel that there there may be a lot less stigma associated with male that incorporates feminine items into a male presentation than a Crossdresser that attempts to appear and pass as woman.

I totally disagree with you there, and in fact I've seen the opposite to be true. That the "gender bender crowd" bothers people more than traditional crossdresers do. They understand crossdressers as wanting to be like women at least part of the time, so dressing like women makes sense for someone who wants to be like them some of the time.


In fact, straight males that wear nail polish, skirts, and other feminine attire have been in the new quite a lot lately.

Still doesn't mean it's common, or that "ordinary" men are doing it.


As for "blazing my trail" I believe that my trail can be summed-up as "Fashion Freedom for Men"

Been a while since I saw that phrase. :-)


The road is paved by men that are willing to incorporate feminine items into their otherwise male appearance and to wear those items openly.

But most men have no interest in doing so.


I believe that is the only way the crossdressing with ever be accepted by the general public.

I disagree with that sentiment.


The easiest way for me to describe my POV is that I'm all good with the gender binary society we live in, I was simply drafted to the wrong team.

That phrasing describes me as well.

And You admit that you got drafted in the wrong team! No more middle path terminology for you, Missy, you're a non-transitioning transsexual...at the moment. And I'm only partly kidding on that you know.


Your angle is different from that of a CD'er who's might be different from a "middle-pather" (whether that MP self-identifies as CD or TS) which of course is much different from that of the transitioning TS, and so on.

Indeed.


I'm not looking for a blurring of the gender lines. I don't look at other men and think they have too few fashion choices or that they need to wear makeup or nail polish. They are just fine the way they are, both aesthetically and the fact they are perfectly content being...men. The gender binary makes sense for most. We will always be outliers to some extent.

Exactly.



I am clearly in the minority on crossdressers.com because I really don't want to pass or don't care about presenting as a woman. My ultimate goal is for society to accept feminine males in the same manner that it accepts Tomboys. Hopefully, one day this will happen, but it will not happen if the vast majority of us are closeted.

Let me put it this way. Quite a few people here, deep down...don't identify as male, they identify as women. And I'm not just referring to the acknowledged TS's. I'm referring to those I call the "proto-TS" that just haven't figure it out yet, and to some that KNOW They're TS's but call themselves CD's and believe they will never transition because of their sense of family responsibility. These people aren't feminine males, they're women or identify as such in their hearts.



I cannot expect you and other folks here to push the envelope in male-mode because that is not what you are about.

Right.


The problem is that the "fem male" (like me) is in the minority of a minority. In other words, crossdressers are a minority in society, and the fem male is a very small minority of the crossdresser subset.

:hugs: Jamie

Indeed. Though it's good to see your perspective here, Jamie.

Veronica

[Sara Jessica]

Hi Veronica, nice to see your comment. Somehow I missed it the other day but I'm glad to come across it now.


And You admit that you got drafted in the wrong team! No more middle path terminology for you, Missy, you're a non-transitioning transsexual...at the moment. And I'm only partly kidding on that you know.

I'll wear that label but keep in mind that my personal expansion of the "middle path" has more to do with how I live my life rather than "what" I am. I have a foot on both sides of the gender fence and keeping things separated is made more difficult by my ever-present elephant.

Now on to rats....

Every so often I'm blessed with some quiet time at home where the family is gone for long enough to dabble in makeup and/or hair styling to my heart's content. Yesterday evening was one of those times and I took advantage.

I took care in removing my makeup, or so I thought. My wife commented earlier that my eyes looked a bit dark. Then my youngest daughter chimes in...

"Yeah, it looks like he's wearing rock star makeup."

Awww heck. Now my daughter is seeing the elephant.

For the record, I grabbed some eye makeup remover and a cotton pad and went over both eyes. The right side left a smidgen of black on the pad while the left pretty much left nothing. It had to be mascara but either way, one of these days I might learn and use a gallon of the stuff to ensure all traces are gone.

In hindsight, I know what might have held me back a bit last night. I got my eyebrows waxed on the way home from work so there was a little residual tenderness that made me less inclined to really scrub with the cotton pad.

[Jamie001]

I think he has some sense of the elephant I think.

But we are not Fighters or Drivers, and a few celebrities does not a change in cultural behavior make.

Yep, and in fact you're one of the few people here I don't consider "traditionally transgendered". Haven't seen BB post here in a while either.

Technically you're a crossdresser, but your basic motivation isn't the same.

I totally disagree with you there, and in fact I've seen the opposite to be true. That the "gender bender crowd" bothers people more than traditional crossdresers do. They understand crossdressers as wanting to be like women at least part of the time, so dressing like women makes sense for someone who wants to be like them some of the time.


Still doesn't mean it's common, or that "ordinary" men are doing it.


But most men have no interest in doing so.


Indeed. Though it's good to see your perspective here, Jamie.

Veronica

Hi Veronica,

Thank you for you perspective which IMHO was about 90 percent correct. You seems to understand what I'm all about and how I'm different.

In the case of fighters, drivers, and athletes wearing feminine items, I disagree with you. For example, many years ago men did not wear earrings and if they did it was only one earring. They certainly didn't wear 2 caret diamond stud earrings in both ears! Now it is commonplace - just look at how many NFL Players are doing this. More and more men - especially the younger generation are wearing earrings. Men operate from a "herd mentality" and are terrified of doing anything that differentiates them from the herd. Sports stars, drivers, fighters, musicians, and other famous men make it seem ok for the everyday man to deviate from the herd.

My Therapist that specializes in gender issues considers me transgendered and a crossdresser. Previously I disagreed with this assessment, but psychology has no other way to classify me even though I only desire the equivalent of a Tomboy (Jane-girl) to be accepted for Men. The only way to make this happen is to get out there and do it like myself, Butterfly Bill, and Sissy Stephanie do every day.

I still disagree regarding full crossdressing being more accepted than gender bending by incorporating some feminine items into an otherwise male presentation for the following reason:

A gender bender is not attempting to deceive folks into thinking that he is a woman. I am a mix of genders that is both male and female but folks can see that I'm clearly of the male sex. All that I'm doing is adding nail polish, capri pants, women's shoes and a purse. Just like when a woman (Tomboy) wears no makeup, a man's shirt, possibly a necktie, and men's shoes (or at least men's style shoes that are made in women's sizes and are called "boyfriend's shoes")

On the other hand, a crossdresser attempts to appear as a woman and to disguise that they are really of the male sex by tucking, wearing thick makeup to eliminate any signs of beard stubble, and wearing entirely feminine clothing. When a the average person clocks a crossdresser, they feel deceived, whereas in my case as a gender bending male, what you see is what you get - just like a Tomboy Woman that incorporates male clothing into her normal presentation while not disguising the fact that she is a woman by wearing a fake mustache or fake beard.

Ordinary men are not like me and are not doing it because they don't have the strong feminine personality within them. It is wonderful when famous straight men gender-bend because it makes it more ok for the male has feminine traits but is entrenched in the male herd mentality. To me, these famous people are heroes because the deviate from the herd mindset and show men that it is ok to do so. Some of these men even write blogs about it. :cheer::jumping: These men will eventually affect change in society for normal men.

I appreciate the folks here taking the time to hear my perspective. In the past my perspective of most crossdressers here has been incorrect. For a long time I was under the impression that most of the crossdressers attempt to pass simply so that they can wear women's clothing and makeup without suffering the ridicule that they would suffer if they wore these items when presenting as a man. I now realize that I was wrong and that the full female presentation is very important to them because it makes them a "complete women" as that is their real desire.

In my case, I have a very strong feminine side that is much stronger than my male side. I would say that I'm 70 percent female and 30 percent male and therefore I really prefer to be referred to as "maam" "rather than "sir" but I get referred to as both.

I hope that one day society will evolve to understand that gender is a continuum and that male and female identify sex, not gender. Society has a long way to go to get to this point because of generations of male conditioning that condemn expression of even the smallest feminine trait. If we stay in the closet and don't get out there and push the envelope, transgendered folks will not make progress. On the other hand, progress for some transgendered folks is to continue dressing and staying deeply closeted. Personally, I can't relate to this but at least I'm learning to respect their perspective.

[ReineD]

I still disagree regarding full crossdressing being more accepted than gender bending by incorporating some feminine items into an otherwise male presentation for the following reason:

A gender bender is not attempting to deceive folks into thinking that he is a woman. I am a mix of genders that is both male and female but folks can see that I'm clearly of the male sex. All that I'm doing is adding nail polish, capri pants, women's shoes and a purse. Just like when a woman (Tomboy) wears no makeup, a man's shirt, possibly a necktie, and men's shoes (or at least men's style shoes that are made in women's sizes and are called "boyfriend's shoes")

Just to clarify, I'm sure you're referring to people who experience both feminine and masculine affinities, and not TSs who do know that they reside in the wrong bodies. It's a good idea to specify such things around here since we do have a wide variety of people who read all the threads. I'm sure you are not intending on starting a debate about whether TSs are deceiving people when they live according to the gender they feel internally.

That said, I have run into the mindset you describe, but more so among genetic women than genetic men. I do know several FtMs who initially believed they were transmen but who eventually settled into an acceptance of "all" of who they are, for the precise reason you describe. They were tired of feeling as if a part of themselves was "wrong" somehow, so they instead chose to live life as masculine women. (And for the CDers reading this, I'm not referring to the garden-variety women who wear jeans, but to the genetic females who feel dualgender or masculine in every sense of the word, and who have questioned their genders at length). One particular FtM told me that she now prefers the pronoun "she" (for a while she did refer to herself as a "he"). She has no wish for bottom surgery, she no longer wants a mastectomy. She does get a man's haircut at a barber shop though, she purchases all her clothes in men's stores, and she has a male name. She is ensconced in her lesbian community and she does not want to leave it, hence the re-adoption of the pronoun "she". Her genetic female partner, on the other hand, has a gender neutral name and prefers the gender neutral pronouns. I'm not saying that all transmen feel this way, obviously there are F2Ms who feel just as uncomfortable being in a female body as there are M2Fs who feel uncomfortable being in male bodies and both will make changes to their bodies through hormones and surgery, but there is a growing number of people who are not pure TS and who are finding ways to honor their gender duality overtly, in all aspects of their lives.

However, I do not think that feminine males are accepted as readily as the masculine females I describe above. Honestly, I think that most people in our society still look at a feminine male and label him "gay". And straight men will despise him, depending on the milieu in which he lives of course. Still, I do believe that gay men are more accepted than are CDers (since the misinformation in our society is such that many people still believe CDers to be perverts) , so in this sense you may have a point. Some people may look more kindly upon a man whom they perceive to be gay, than a man who presents in a gender opposite than birth ... IF he is read. But, other people may not approve of either of them. And still others will approve of (or tolerate) both of them.

One last point ... if a GenderBender/Dualgender/CD/TG (or however you want to describe someone who is not cisgender nor transsexual) should find him/herself in a milieu where there are many traditional, conservative, homophobic people, the male who presents believably as a female has a greater chance of passing under the radar than a male presenting as a male but wearing items of women's clothing. And this is why so many people prefer to present as female. It's less noticeable that way, at least at first glance. Also, some TGs really do enjoy their appearance more as women than as feminine males and we cannot discount personal aesthetics.

[Sara Jessica]

My elephant, that is.

Dateline, Sunday afternoon, barely a half-hour ago. I am innocently going about my business at the grocery store. We're pushing 100 degrees here so I'm wearing a concert T-shirt, sweat shorts, no-show socks and non-descript Skechers shoes.

I'm pushing my cart towards a woman and her son who can't be older than 4. His eyes are fixated on me. I don't compute in his world. If he were an adult, I'd be getting the stink-eye but it's easy to excuse such behavior out of a child. As I walk by, I hear him ask his mom...

"Why is his hair so long?"

Too funny, I thought. It's not even down, I have it back in a pony. But as I got about 15 feet beyond them, I heard him say...

"So he's a girl???"

Really makes me wonder what mom said to him in response to the first question.

Sigh.

Really makes me think that taming this beast might be best.

[KellyJameson]

I hope you don't Sara, I think you will trade one form of pain for another that is much worse.

[Pexetta]

Contrariwise, I think you started 'taming this beast' when you first had electrolysis. Only a really committed CDer would go so far and I suspect you knew that perfectly well when you made post #1. The elephant in your room has long since demolished the walls and rampaged off into the jungle.

I may of course be projecting from my own situation but the point is, the mahout hasn't been born that can keep this particular elephant under control.

[PretzelGirl]

Young kids don't compute the hair so well. I think we all hear it. The one I remember was walking to my car in a parking lot and as I passed a car where a young boy was in the cart and Mom was putting things in the car I heard "Mommy, why does he have girl hair?". Maybe mine and yours learned something those days.

[Sara Jessica]

Contrariwise, I think you started 'taming this beast' when you first had electrolysis. Only a really committed CDer would go so far and I suspect you knew that perfectly well when you made post #1. The elephant in your room has long since demolished the walls and rampaged off into the jungle.

I may of course be projecting from my own situation but the point is, the mahout hasn't been born that can keep this particular elephant under control.

Actually, something I think I've learned from this long-ish running thread is that my elephant is actually quite well-behaved but it seems she gets into a bit of trouble when I'm careless and leave the keys to her paddock within reach. When she rampages, she tends to come back but by that time, even more people have already seen her.


Young kids don't compute the hair so well. I think we all hear it. The one I remember was walking to my car in a parking lot and as I passed a car where a young boy was in the cart and Mom was putting things in the car I heard "Mommy, why does he have girl hair?". Maybe mine and yours learned something those days.

It's really hard to say if mine learned anything. I will never know what mom said to him to bring on that second comment. I'm thinking she saw my elephant as well.


I hope you don't Sara, I think you will trade one form of pain for another that is much worse.

Good point Kelly but when it comes to hair, it's actually about trading a source of absolute joy for something very painful.

And I think I've mentioned elsewhere, I often feel that the attachment I've developed to my hair borderlines on irrational. But it's real, my feelings are real, 100% real to me. There is a magic to having hair attached to one's head cascading on your shoulders. There is magic in having my self-image absolutely redefined, where femininity...even beauty, takes on an entirely new meaning no matter how I might be presenting.

I was out last week with my friend Diana. We hung out at Starbucks for a few hours, chatting and catching up. One of the first things we talked about is how things are going at home and I brought up that my wife has gone from vinegar "when are you going to cut your hair?" to sweet "when are you going to cut your hair?" I then told Diana that although I wasn't looking to spend $$$ on a hairstyle, I did so that morning because who knows how long I'll be able to keep this up. I remember sitting in the chair as my stylist performed her craft, how she piled and clipped my hair on top of my head so she could get at the layers underneath. How absolutely beautiful I felt in that chair when she was done.

As I finished the tale, Diana said to me something along the lines of "your eyes are twinkling, I can tell how much this means to you." She then went on to say how even though she might take her hair for granted, there are things about a woman that make her feel special, even feel sensual (by this time she brought breasts into the mix), all of this went far to lessen my impression that my feelings were somehow irrational.

But at the end of the day I just feel worse about it. Something this innocent shouldn't cause pain to those I love. But it does. Step outside of the gender binary and all bets are off. As individuals we are free to do what we choose with our bodies. Gosh knows I have tested that statement over and over again. But as individuals in relationships, we have to consider how our decisions are impacting those we love. Yes, I have considered. No, I have not acquiesced. It often makes me feel selfish but as I do all I can to keep that proverbial bell from ringing (not the dinner bell, the "time to transition" bell), I can somewhat justify carrying on as I have.

But what's next? Only time will tell.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

We'll leave the lights on for you in safe haven :heehee:

[Jennifer in CO]

as a person who has been "on the other side" when I came back to the dark side I re-grew my hair. While I was living as a girl I kept it at to just below the shoulders since so much more styling could be done with it at that length. About 10 years ago my hair was long enough that in a braid it touched my belt and I "had" to wear the biggest scrunchies I could find to tie it off. Age has it now crawling up my back and is a wimpy thing just touching my bra. My hair is my last visage to my "former" life and no Sara you are not strange for loving it

Jenn

[Sara Jessica]

This is going to be a difficult post. I'm not entirely sure where it'll go so please bear with me.

I have talked repeatedly about my efforts to find peace and love on a middle path. My middle path is defined as finding fulfillment on both sides of the gender fence in an attempt to stave off transition. Everyone who knows me understands that I do so out of love and respect for the life that I have built, namely family and career.

Many others have chimed in, talking about how they are in almost identical situations. There are a fair number of us out there for whom all things being equal would transition. We choose to remain true to our families. We attempt balance. I do believe we are capable of finding the fulfillment we are looking for. Many have described finding just that. Many are truly happy in this dual pursuit.

Still, there are others, mostly within the TS part of the gender spectrum, who legitimately question whether those of us on such a path are just kidding ourselves. Whether it's a "failure to launch" or that true happiness will certainly evade anyone who attempts to deny their true calling, they question the sustainability of this whole thing. I totally get where they are coming from as I am questioning that at this very time.

My elephant is a metaphor for the changes I have made in my appearance. When you think about it, each of these changes is in favor of my female presentation and at the expense of my "male" side. Yes, expense. Like it or not, more guys out there may be doing some or all of the things I have done but it doesn't mean any of it is perceived as normal. "Normal" males are furry. Normal males, especially my age, don't have over a foot of hair cascading off of the back of their head. I can rationalize it all I want but this whole effort flies in the face of what society thinks of as normal. I have transformed from utterly normal to an outlier. But I truly don't give a hoot what anyone else thinks.

Except for one person, my wife.

And despite the absolute joy that I have cultivated on both sides of the gender fence, it feels as if things are coming to a crossroads. You see, aside from the comments about my hair over the last couple of years, the rest of my elephant has remained just that when it comes to my wife, an elephant. That which is not brought up but we both know she's there. So in talking yesterday about some important logistical issues which have to do with my being able to manage this whole thing in a stealthy way within my own home (as in keeping my growing children in the dark), it finally came out...her utter disdain for each and every change that my elephant represents. The removal of my body hair, she hates it. My long hair of course she despises. Even my facial electrolysis that I have been slowly chipping away at (which I began with her tacit approval). All of these things represent the erasure of the man she married and are a constant reminder of who & what I am.

There are so many fallacies in these things many of us do, here are just a couple of them...


I'm still the same person as I always have been. (Yes, perhaps you are the same person but now you have different packaging that really, we cannot expect our SO's to be able to accept no matter how much we might plead otherwise).
It's my body, no one has the right to tell me what I can do with it. (Guess what? Many of our SO's exercise such a right as part of the marriage partnership.)


I mentioned tacit approval. Most, if not all of the changes I have made...heck, this probably holds true with my outing schedule, all seems to be based on some sort of tacit approval when in reality, it appears that it's simple exasperation on her part. Why say no when I will probably do what I want anyway. Has her giving that inch lead to my taking of the mile? Perhaps. Would she be happier if she had kept me in check early on? Definitely. Would I have been happier? Hard to say. I probably wouldn't know any better if my modus operandi in staving off a lifetime of TS feelings was to be closeted away.

So here we are at those crossroads. I have some choices to make but in all fairness, I need to share the nature of the seed of this discontent. Long story short, the place where I keep all of my stuff in our home must revert to it's original purpose. In other words, time to finish a remodel and this area which I have co-opted as my own cannot be this way any longer. I have a solution to build a small walk-in closet as a place to keep my stuff secure (as in away from the prying eyes of children...she is adamant that we won't be telling the kids). We're talking small, 15 square feet that can be tastefully done within the existing architecture of our home. 15 square feet that allows me to actually have a little place for my stuff without having to rely upon totes, file cabinet drawers, garment bags, etc. 15 square feet that I am able to accept NOT growing beyond. While one can do a lot with 15 square feet, by definition it would be pretty much impossible to turn into a hoarding situation.

So what does she think of this idea? It ain't gonna happen. We have gone around and around on this many times over the last year and yesterday I pinned her down on the root of her disapproval. It all comes down to what it represents, a closet for MY women's stuff. When all is said and done, it seems to be yet another reminder that she isn't going to have.

The solution for her is easy. Put all my stuff in totes. Or even spend the $$$ to rent a storage locker (I can just see Storage Wars right now if they were to ever get ahold of my stuff!!!). But to build this closet? Nope. To rebuild a sliding-door closet with my stuff in there unsecured? Nope.

This is the point where I dig my heels in. I refuse to live my life out of totes. I am already disorganized to the point where I have a tote full of amazing outfits that have been worn once, only to be tossed into this tote for eventual laundry or dry cleaning. I'd probably be able to go a couple years without shopping with all of these outfits that are kind of forgotten to the point where they still seem brand new to me. Getting away for an outing is hard enough the way it is now, I cannot imagine having to fish through a multitude of totes and garment bags to fish out the stuff I need to get ready on the fly as I often do.

At this point my options are few. I could give in and live out of totes, not that I have a really good place to keep any and besides, the security issue would remain with the kids. I can also play the martyr (which I acknowledge is quite the game but honestly, I feel as if I'm backed into a corner). I can eschew all things feminine and put it all away. I can go so far as to wipe away my elephant, either some or all of what has cultivated her existence. And not to create some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy or something like that but I know exactly what this will do to me emotionally.

The thing is, in this mode we're in that is essentially a step above DADT, all she is seeing is the very low percentage of my time that is devoted to my life on the feminine side of things. A couple outings a month? I'm going out all the time. Happiness on that side of my life? Why can't I derive the same happiness from my family? This is her perception, her reality. That if I derive any happiness away from the family that perhaps I need to go and live that life. I am getting zero credit for managing the torment in my soul in an effort to keep everything together.

It might seem as if this is all about "stuff". About the material things that go into helping my outside match what is in my heart. It could be such the social experiment to redefine what it means to me to be a woman by burying the "stuff". My elephant has already helped me to redefine femininity in my heart when it comes to expression. Part of me says with resolve, "not on my watch". My outings are essential to preserve my sanity. My friendships are very important as well. There is much risk if I play the martyr card. Am I prepared for the fallout? Is she? Or is fallout inevitable no matter what choice is made? This situation might be untenable. What makes me feel otherwise is that underneath all of this BS, love is absolutely present. After 20 years, I love her more than I did the day we got married.

[Marleena]

Sara your situation sounds like a game of chess. Who makes the next move? I dare not attempt to give you any advice on it but I really do feel your pain. What I do know is that elephants cannot be confined to a small space for long. I hope you find compromise with your wife somehow.

Checkmate.

[PretzelGirl]

Sara, I feel a lot of pain here. The situation seems to be unmanageable at many levels. I can't recall, but have your wife and you gone to couples counseling before? I am believer in that there are resolutions to everything, it is just finding the correct middle ground.

I do agree that trying to play the martyr card wouldn't work. She probably feels that you are being selfish in all that you do and while it is true that we probably are all selfish at some level, it has been obvious that you are trying to find ways to balance things out.

Ultimately, probably all I can do is wish you the best, lend an ear, and give you a hug. When a relationship problem gets this deep, you really need to know the two people involved. All we know on your wife is that she is saying no and is uncomfortable with what sounds like everything. That is why I lean towards the counseling if it hasn't failed in the past.

I hope that you are able to find a resolution even if it means calming things down in the short term so that you two can work together for the long term. When there is love in the heart, there is always a way.

[steftoday]

I wish I had an answer for you. I can only echo Marleena and wish you a peaceful compromise. Please keep us posted on how things go.

[Alice B]

Wow! We need to talk. I may not have answers, but I'm a good listener and of course always a friend.

[ThiHi]

Ow. Ow ow ow ow ow.

I'm so sorry. I'm not on this site as much, and hadn't read any of this till this morning. I can feel the pain. I'm so sorry for both of you.

Therapy for you. Couples counseling (If she'll go) for both of you. She might need her own therapist as well, but that's up to her.

Again, I'm sorry you have to go through this, but go through it you must. At least, that's my opinion.

*hugs*

[KellyJameson]

For many months I have read the words and felt the pain of men in marriages who are struggling between two loves and trying to protect them both, those they love and the love they are trying to find, restore or keep of self.

It is only in hindsight why I have always had a pathological fear of intimacy with a woman but this is not a fear of sex except in the symbolic, dysphoric sense
as it was in being someone elses other half and that binding together with a woman to become one while remaining separate.

I see now from deep inside me in a place I could not articulate was the utter conviction and "knowing" that this would mean death for me not in the physical sense but for soul, my will to live, my spirit. That force we need inside us to push on everyday and make life worth living.

People find love in marriage to help give meaning to life but I avoided it to prevent meaning from being taken from it.

Binding myself to a woman meant the cessation of my own existence and for me this is one expression of intense gender dysphoria that was made worse by being in a relationship because it increases the chasm between me and the physical reality that I needed to have.

This is a never ending form of fluctuating anxiety that never goes to sleep but only changes in intensity.

This is not a self esteem issue, it does not come from past abuse or from any type of experience that could account for it in environment. It is one and only one thing and that is the fight to keep the identity alive that you know to be true.

It is the experience of being pulled under water by others and constantly fighting to swim back to the surface where there is life giving oxygen.

If my words feel in anyway similar to your own truth Sara than it will come down to sacrificing one love for another and if it is you it will mean that you stop searching for yourself and suspend your life for others which is extremely dangerous because you risk losing your will to live and the capacity to experience pleasure.

Because this is really a question about pain the pain will decide so any choice will be made between the pain, between two forms of suffering that happen inside you.

If you are a woman can you live separated from yourself without destroying yourself? Can you give up the journey back to self? Can you answer the question of who you are without experiencing being that person?

Most men that crossdress are men and they soften that part of themselves that is still a man but were taught to reject so in some ways crossdressing takes a man back to his heart (love) and this can be really healthy but there is no danger to them because their identity and body are one and the same thing.

Other men use it for sexual release, still no danger beyond the typical complications that come with sex which are universal regardless of expression. And often there is a mixture of both the search for heart and experience of ones sexuality.

But when body and identity are not aligned this is endless chaos and like torture everyone has a limit to what they can take and something will eventually break.

The question to answer is how wide is the chasm between self and body and your whole life will have been an expression of this by what you searched for and what you tried to protect inside of you.

[ReineD]

I can really see both sides of this. My understanding of gender is different than your wife's (I believe there exists non-binary gender), but I can understand a wife who believes there are men, women, and nothing in between. To such a wife any cross-gender expression is incomprehensible and further, it is distasteful. Or, if you are in the binary (if you are TS and will never truly be happy unless you eradicate your male self), then I can see the push-pull between the two of you and I can certainly understand your wife's denial as she attempts to preserve the status quo with a husband that she loves.

She has seen Sara emerge bit by bit, first with a few items of clothing, then outings combined with body shaving, eyebrow plucking, nail growing and polishing, long hair, (and also from your past posts increasing hip and butt size), plus an ever increasing accumulation of clothing and accessories. She might have reluctantly been OK with all of this as long as your things were "impermanently" scattered around the house in tote bags, as if this was a phase that might eventually subside. But, a clothes closet that is dedicated to Sara lends an air of permanence and it is as serious to your wife, I'm guessing, as if you were deciding to begin taking hormones.

Still. She should allow for adequate storage of clothing. It really is just clothing storage in a house that you both share, and it will not change anything. But, you need to be crystal clear with her right now about your ultimate goals. This business of bit-by-bit growth, and your wife also noticing your ever increasing need (and sheer joy) in expressing Sara, is torture to her, as I'm sure it is for you as long as there is an elephant in the room. Hiding an elephant is stressful both for the person hiding it, and the person who tries hard not to see it.

In other words, it is not about the new closet for your stuff, it is about where this is all heading.

If you can honestly say that you also have a male identity that YOU do not wish to eradicate (as opposed to saying you are attempting to maintain a balance out of your love for her), then TELL HER this in order to ease her fears. She's not interested in hearing that you are holding yourself back for her. She wants to know that you are not moving forward for YOU. If you cannot do this, then it might be best for the two of you to part company sooner than later. It's damn hard starting a life over, the closer one gets to retirement.

[Raquel June]

I'm intrigued. Sorry for showing up late.


... I would be absolutely floored if he were any sort of TG himself, let alone an admirer. He is a guy's guy who can be so very happy laying on a raft in my pool with a beer in hand patting his moderately rotund (and extraordinarily hairy) belly, just as proud as he can be. And I can pretty much guarantee that the only TG he knows is me, even if he is not quite certain yet.

This is your best friend? The guy who keeps noticing more and more things and making little comments?

You've gotta watch out. You've gotta really think about what your boundaries are. I know it sounds silly, but this could turn into a situation that totally blindsides you.

Guys get a little weird when their friends turn out to be gay or trans. If you're not in the let's-drink-a-beer-and-whistle-at-chicks zone, you're in a place that has some sexual tension. Some guys can deal with that and even make jokes about it. Some guys can't.

If you're not their 100% hetero dude buddy, you become a sex object to some degree. It doesn't mean they're going to be offensive or try to rape you. But one day they might have too many drinks and tell you you're un-f*ckable. Or maybe they'll tell you that you are. Either way, it's a weird situation.

Maybe you've thought of this and you're prepared to stand up for yourself. But is being out new to you? Are you prepared for your own feelings?

And in a way, it can be flattering just to be seen in any kind of feminine terms. A part of you will say, "This person sees the woman in me, and that's all I want," and no matter how gross a guy is, it's good to feel beautiful and desired. You've gotta plan ahead and make up your mind that if you hear that voice in your head you're going to tell the b*tch to shut up.

Sorry for the tangent, but I just thought if you hadn't really experienced what it's like to come out to your guy friends that it might be helpful.




Might some on the TS end of things think I'm less authentic by choosing to stay on this particular path? You bet.

Less authentic? You're not posting about frilly panties. You're posting about changes you're making to your everyday life to make you more feminine. You say you identify as female. Sounds pretty authentically TS to me.




I have my family for whom my personal sacrifice is made. I place my sanity at risk every day of my life, not to mention the vice that squeezes my heart more often than not, all to be surrounded by a love that I am simply unwilling to risk.

Not that I'm necessarily right, I really think most people who try to stay in the middle are torturing themselves and they would be better off (as far as their sanity) to go a little further to the one side of the path that they know they want to be on. Let's be honest, you're pushing pretty hard towards one side, aren't ya?

But, if you love the woman, if you love the relationship as it is, your sacrifice may be improving your sanity, not just appeasing her.

OK, here's another tangent of mine. Because I never hear anybody else talk seriously about the sexual-orientation-transition you force on yourself as a married M2F.

You kinda blame things on your wife not being comfortable with your inner female. But look at the big picture. Even if your wife is totally supportive and accepting, it's pretty weird to transition from living as a straight guy to living as a lesbian.

Seriously. I transitioned, and within a couple months I was totally comfortable being full-time and felt that I passed just fine. Not that I'm particularly attractive, but nobody looked at me funny. But when you throw a wife/girlfriend into the mix, that's when things get hard. Because gay people making public displays of affection attract attention.

And I'm not talking about inappropriate displays. I'm talking about subtle things. It attracts attention. It makes you self-conscious. You act more awkward. People look at you. In the end it adds up to you outing yourself as trans as soon as you out yourself as a lesbian. And you don't want to attract attention. So you show less affection towards your wife. And that puts a big strain on your relationship.

For me, it came out of nowhere. I realized, "Wow. I guess I really don't know the appropriate way for a lesbian couple to act in public."

And it made me realize that I had put all my energy into coming to terms with being trans but neglected to really think about what it was to be a lesbian. You're married to a straight woman. Unless she's capable of being publicly gay, and privately getting what she wants from a relationship with another woman, it's just not gonna work out.

And even if you take her out of the equation, you need to take a long look on whether or not you can handle being a lesbian with a lesbian. Because if you don't really cope with what it is to be a woman who loves women, you're going to end up being with unstable women. I went through that for awhile. Women were intrigued by me! I'm the weird guy who's going to get a sex change! But the women I dated weren't lesbians. They were unstable women who saw me as a novelty.

I'm just saying, being a lesbian is a huge part of the "big picture" that people tend to ignore completely when they wish they could transition. It might be a good reason to stop pushing towards the female side of the "middle path" and be happy with the relationship you have.




I'm a little more careful with the term woman.... I personally feel I haven't earned my womanhood yet.

Ugh! That's how I felt for so long! I didn't accept myself. I basically idealized womanhood and thought I wasn't good enough to see myself as a "real woman." It really screwed up my perspective more than I realized. It was a depressing place to be at.




At the end of the day, this woman comes into my office and takes a seat. We were talking for all of 30 seconds when she says...

You're wearing mascara, aren't you???

To which I calmly replied, "no, I'm not".

Some people are more observant than others. But the people-watchers are usually the quiet ones. So by the time someone actually says something, you can bet they weren't the first to notice.

Not that I'm a huge Monty Python fan, but this immediately made me think of the Black Knight.

"You're wearing mascara!"

"No I'm not!"

"Well what's that, then?"

"I'm tired."

"No you're not! That's makeup on your face!"

"It's just guyliner."




it finally came out...her utter disdain for each and every change that my elephant represents. The removal of my body hair, she hates it. My long hair of course she despises. Even my facial electrolysis that I have been slowly chipping away at (which I began with her tacit approval). All of these things represent the erasure of the man she married and are a constant reminder of who & what I am.

Ouch.

She might not actually hate every one of those things. She just hates that you're trying to kill off the man she married, and she hates that you're trying to invade her space in the role as the woman.

My ex was awesome at first. She accepted me as a woman more than I accepted myself. She'd even dated a few girls. She knew how to treat a woman. She loved to go shopping with me. She gave me my estrogen injections.

But in the end she wanted a more normal life for her and her daughters, and it was just too much for her feeling like she was losing her place as the woman.

The bottom line is that if you're a lesbian you have to be with a woman who's OK with being a lesbian. Otherwise it's going to all hit the fan sooner or later.

[Sara Jessica]

Thanks to everyone for the kind words, I really appreciate the thoughts.


...She probably feels that you are being selfish in all that you do and while it is true that we probably are all selfish at some level, it has been obvious that you are trying to find ways to balance things out.

I'd be lying if I didn't think OFTEN about how selfish this whole thing seems. Whether being perfectly content if the entire family took off for several hours which gives me some quiet time at home to the changes made to my appearance, a lot of this seems selfish on the surface. But then shouldn't we look at the alternative? What becomes of our psyche if we bury this aspect of our being? What happens if we have no mode of expression? Will that affect our relations with others? In my case, unfortunately it can do just that. I get cranky if I cannot get out & about at least every two weeks or so. One thing that has changed though is my home crankiness has been diminished by my appearance changes. It's like the clothes, and certainly the makeup, becomes less necessary because I feel closer to my true self in my daily expression, if that makes any sense.

Counseling is such an obvious option, one that I didn't even remotely consider in the heat of the moment. We haven't gone there before, thank you for bringing it up. Sometimes stating the obvious can be such a good thing when one is blinded to most of what is around them.


I can really see both sides of this. My understanding of gender is different than your wife's (I believe there exists non-binary gender), but I can understand a wife who believes there are men, women, and nothing in between. To such a wife any cross-gender expression is incomprehensible and further, it is distasteful. Or, if you are in the binary (if you are TS and will never truly be happy unless you eradicate your male self), then I can see the push-pull between the two of you and I can certainly understand your wife's denial as she attempts to preserve the status quo with a husband that she loves.

I believe in gender fluidity, that the proof lies in something as simple as the membership of these pages.

It's society that has constructed the binary, for better or for worse. And I think that most people can get their heads around some variation of black & white (as in, some men are more manly than others, some women come across as being more feminine than others) but to travel too far from the binary leads to the outlier territory which is apparently where I reside. Regardless, I too accept the general premise of a gender binary and have often said that I was simply drafted to the wrong team. And don't get me wrong, I harbor absolutely no resentment towards my wife because she struggles with this. It stinks for her, it stinks for many SO's out there. I cannot blame her in the least bit for trying to preserve the status quo.


She has seen Sara emerge bit by bit, first with a few items of clothing, then outings combined with body shaving, eyebrow plucking, nail growing and polishing, long hair, (and also from your past posts increasing hip and butt size), plus an ever increasing accumulation of clothing and accessories. She might have reluctantly been OK with all of this as long as your things were "impermanently" scattered around the house in tote bags, as if this was a phase that might eventually subside. But, a clothes closet that is dedicated to Sara lends an air of permanence and it is as serious to your wife, I'm guessing, as if you were deciding to begin taking hormones.

Very insightful, and yes, I think you are right.


Still. She should allow for adequate storage of clothing. It really is just clothing storage in a house that you both share, and it will not change anything. But, you need to be crystal clear with her right now about your ultimate goals. This business of bit-by-bit growth, and your wife also noticing your ever increasing need (and sheer joy) in expressing Sara, is torture to her, as I'm sure it is for you as long as there is an elephant in the room. Hiding an elephant is stressful both for the person hiding it, and the person who tries hard not to see it.

In other words, it is not about the new closet for your stuff, it is about where this is all heading.

This is exactly where I'm going the next time we talk.

I have shared with many others, both IRL and in these pages, my commitment to stay on this middle path. Sometimes it's those conversations with friends, many of whom are like-minded people (others of the TG persuasion who are also balancing family & career in the face of whatever TG issues that are present) go far to give me strength.

Yes, from her POV I am on that proverbial slippery slope. She has no idea what next week, next month, or next year might bring. Heck, neither do I. But the fact remains that I am committed to staying on this path. The reason this is lost upon her? It's really quite simple, a lack of communication when it comes to this huge elephant in our relationship.

I need to express to her where I see this whole thing going. I need to reassure her.


If you can honestly say that you also have a male identity that YOU do not wish to eradicate (as opposed to saying you are attempting to maintain a balance out of your love for her), then TELL HER this in order to ease her fears. She's not interested in hearing that you are holding yourself back for her. She wants to know that you are not moving forward for YOU. If you cannot do this, then it might be best for the two of you to part company sooner than later. It's damn hard starting a life over, the closer one gets to retirement.

Wow, that's a tough one to answer.

I think she knows too well that I would eradicate the male in a heartbeat. I don't think she's too concerned about my reasons not to do so, whether it be for her, my children, whatever it might be. Just like when she says "please cut your hair, even if only for me". She'd be all good with me NOT doing these things, regardless of the motivation.

At the end of the day, I cannot say anything but the fact that I am trying to maintain balance for her, for my family. What I can say is that I have known joy in doing so despite where things are right now. But it's not like there is a right or wrong answer here. Choosing to transition could lead to fulfillment beyond my wildest dreams, but it very well could be the equivalent of trading one set of issues for another. My choice at this moment is predicated upon not risking my family.


By the way...Raquel, your post is wonderful and unique in it's perspective. I will try to address it within the next day or two.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I've been thinking of responding for a while, and figured I had better do it before the thread gets closed. There are things I will say that I believe need to be said, but I really do hate saying them.



But, a clothes closet that is dedicated to Sara lends an air of permanence and it is as serious to your wife, I'm guessing, as if you were deciding to begin taking hormones.

Yes, as do the mini-body-mods, especially the electrolysis.


Still. She should allow for adequate storage of clothing.


But, you need to be crystal clear with her right now about your ultimate goals. This business of bit-by-bit growth, and your wife also noticing your ever increasing need (and sheer joy) in expressing Sara, is torture to her, as I'm sure it is for you as long as there is an elephant in the room. Hiding an elephant is stressful both for the person hiding it, and the person who tries hard not to see it.

Yes. I think it's time for Sara and her wife to have the Big talk, the Long open and honest talk about The Elephant. It's not good to leave things unsaid, or to beat around the bush, it's time to "use the words"


If you can honestly say that you also have a male identity that YOU do not wish to eradicate (as opposed to saying you are attempting to maintain a balance out of your love for her), then TELL HER this in order to ease her fears.

We both know that Sara can't tell her that, which to be honest, isn't really fair to Sara's wife.


She's not interested in hearing that you are holding yourself back for her. She wants to know that you are not moving forward for YOU. If you cannot do this, then it might be best for the two of you to part company sooner than later. It's damn hard starting a life over, the closer one gets to retirement.

I agree.


Counseling is such an obvious option, one that I didn't even remotely consider in the heat of the moment. We haven't gone there before, thank you for bringing it up. Sometimes stating the obvious can be such a good thing when one is blinded to most of what is around them.

And not just couples counseling...counseling for you to, you know why.


Yes, from her POV I am on that proverbial slippery slope. She has no idea what next week, next month, or next year might bring. Heck, neither do I. But the fact remains that I am committed to staying on this path. The reason this is lost upon her? It's really quite simple, a lack of communication when it comes to this huge elephant in our relationship.

You told a little fib there....you know where it's heading, you just can't bring yourself to say it yet. What you're doing is honorable yes, it's self-sacrifice, yes. But is it a "good" thing for you both. it denies the nonesty and reality of the thing. Because, as we both know:


I think she knows too well that I would eradicate the male in a heartbeat.

There, you said it. And you DO need to say it directly to her as well. Yes, I know what that will mean, but honesty is the most important thing.


At the end of the day, I cannot say anything but the fact that I am trying to maintain balance for her,

But from her perspective, she might not see balance, just ever increasing Sara. To her, Balance might be in what a TS acquaintance of mine once called the "pona time" aka "the before time" Before the Electro, before the brows, before the hair, before all the stuff that needs proper storage.


But it's not like there is a right or wrong answer here.

The right answer is putting all the cards on the table. Has your wife seen your writings here? Is she a member here? Has she been on one of your outings where you interact with people like your favorite counter-girls and Diana?



By the way...Raquel, your post is wonderful and unique in it's perspective. I will try to address it within the next day or two.

Nods... that you'll have to address too. Would your wife accept being part of a Lesbian relationship.

I also think it's time the kids were told, that would help with the logistics of it wouldn't it, changing at home would reduce some of the time requirements wouldn't it? Reduce some friction at least.

But as was said, there's a light on the Safe Haven for you. And I'm not being prescriptive or cheerleadery on this. You "know", deep in your heart what you truly want. It's why you did the electro, you might have said to her "it's for logistics so I can use less makeup and take less time with makeup and look nicer", but you really wanted a part of your maleness gone besides those reasons.

Veronica

[Sara Jessica]

Wow! We need to talk. I may not have answers, but I'm a good listener and of course always a friend.

Yes, we will soon. Let's connect on some options in early November.


By the way...Raquel, your post is wonderful and unique in it's perspective. I will try to address it within the next day or two.

OK, maybe I should have said within the next week or two.


Nods... that you'll have to address too. Would your wife accept being part of a Lesbian relationship.

Thanks for the reminder Veronica. And once this is done I'll have to get back to the rest of your comments within the next day...I mean week or two!!! ;)


This is your best friend? The guy who keeps noticing more and more things and making little comments?

You've gotta watch out. You've gotta really think about what your boundaries are. I know it sounds silly, but this could turn into a situation that totally blindsides you.

Guys get a little weird when their friends turn out to be gay or trans. If you're not in the let's-drink-a-beer-and-whistle-at-chicks zone, you're in a place that has some sexual tension. Some guys can deal with that and even make jokes about it. Some guys can't.

If you're not their 100% hetero dude buddy, you become a sex object to some degree. It doesn't mean they're going to be offensive or try to rape you. But one day they might have too many drinks and tell you you're un-f*ckable. Or maybe they'll tell you that you are. Either way, it's a weird situation.

Maybe you've thought of this and you're prepared to stand up for yourself. But is being out new to you? Are you prepared for your own feelings?

And in a way, it can be flattering just to be seen in any kind of feminine terms. A part of you will say, "This person sees the woman in me, and that's all I want," and no matter how gross a guy is, it's good to feel beautiful and desired. You've gotta plan ahead and make up your mind that if you hear that voice in your head you're going to tell the b*tch to shut up.

Sorry for the tangent, but I just thought if you hadn't really experienced what it's like to come out to your guy friends that it might be helpful.

This is a very interesting tangent Raquel. Yes, he is one of my best friends. I have known him for at least 25 years. The motivation for disclosure is important for discussion no matter how the individual identifies. There are way too many tales in these pages about those who become obsessive about their TG nature and the next thing you know, they're blabbing it to others, seemingly without forethought about the fact you cannot put the genie back in the bottle once she is out. In these cases I often wonder about the motivation. Is it an effort to get that elephant off their chest, to be able to share with someone, with anyone, this part of them which they deem so important to continue harboring such a crushing secret? My motivation to (potentially) share comes from an entirely different place. Let's keep it in context with this particular friend. I've kept mine hidden for this entire time. I have no real desire to get this off my chest for the sake of hanging out with him while presenting as a female. Fact of the matter is that he is getting closer to that proverbial bullseye and I have expressed a desire to be honest should he actually hit it. Might I say he doesn't have the balls to come right out and ask the question? He may be saying the exact same thing about me, that I am being evasive in the face of his little jabs. But at the end of the day, I think your perspective is certainly one to keep in mind for anyone disclosing to their guy friends but part of it comes across as a little bit Freudian in that it implies some sort of sexual tension being inherent, being perhaps inevitable. Interesting point but I'm not so sure I agree with it's applicability to my situation but again, I do think it was an important tangent to bring up.


Less authentic? You're not posting about frilly panties. You're posting about changes you're making to your everyday life to make you more feminine. You say you identify as female. Sounds pretty authentically TS to me.

Thank you Raquel. You see it just as my transitioning/transitioned friends IRL see it. And that I do appreciate.


Not that I'm necessarily right, I really think most people who try to stay in the middle are torturing themselves and they would be better off (as far as their sanity) to go a little further to the one side of the path that they know they want to be on. Let's be honest, you're pushing pretty hard towards one side, aren't ya?

But, if you love the woman, if you love the relationship as it is, your sacrifice may be improving your sanity, not just appeasing her.

Yep, I'm pushing pretty hard. I've said before that my goal is to get as close to that "line" as possible without going over. The problem is that I have in fact crossed it, hence the existence of my elephant.

Interesting point about sanity and I think you really hit the essence of where I'm coming from. There was a comment made elsewhere that said something along the lines that sacrificing one's true being by trying to stay on a middle path is a profoundly masculine thing to do. Of course I took great exception to this notion that striving to stay on a middle path is somehow akin to laying one's body on a live land mine to save the other troops from destruction. This is where an important facet of a middle path comes into play, that at the root of it there is love.

Why is it less authentic to choose love over transition? These things do not have to be mutually exclusive but in my case they most certainly are (more below on that).

Sometime in the next several weeks I am going to write of a friend who should have stayed on a middle path. She gambled that love would somehow find the way and apparently didn't fully understand that the odds were against this notion on so many levels. While being witness to what she went through gave me a mysterious resolve to go further down the transition path, eschewing the middle path I had already committed to. Yet at the same exact time she helps me to understand how the love in my own life is in fact good for my sanity which supports staying put on a middle path, the precise point you are making.


OK, here's another tangent of mine. Because I never hear anybody else talk seriously about the sexual-orientation-transition you force on yourself as a married M2F.

You kinda blame things on your wife not being comfortable with your inner female. But look at the big picture. Even if your wife is totally supportive and accepting, it's pretty weird to transition from living as a straight guy to living as a lesbian.

Seriously. I transitioned, and within a couple months I was totally comfortable being full-time and felt that I passed just fine. Not that I'm particularly attractive, but nobody looked at me funny. But when you throw a wife/girlfriend into the mix, that's when things get hard. Because gay people making public displays of affection attract attention.

And I'm not talking about inappropriate displays. I'm talking about subtle things. It attracts attention. It makes you self-conscious. You act more awkward. People look at you. In the end it adds up to you outing yourself as trans as soon as you out yourself as a lesbian. And you don't want to attract attention. So you show less affection towards your wife. And that puts a big strain on your relationship.

For me, it came out of nowhere. I realized, "Wow. I guess I really don't know the appropriate way for a lesbian couple to act in public."

And it made me realize that I had put all my energy into coming to terms with being trans but neglected to really think about what it was to be a lesbian. You're married to a straight woman. Unless she's capable of being publicly gay, and privately getting what she wants from a relationship with another woman, it's just not gonna work out.

This one is easy. And not to lessen the validity of what you are talking about (after all, it's a major theme in the mhB books) but this doesn't apply to my situation in any way. My wife has made it crystal clear, transition = divorce.


And even if you take her out of the equation, you need to take a long look on whether or not you can handle being a lesbian with a lesbian. Because if you don't really cope with what it is to be a woman who loves women, you're going to end up being with unstable women. I went through that for awhile. Women were intrigued by me! I'm the weird guy who's going to get a sex change! But the women I dated weren't lesbians. They were unstable women who saw me as a novelty.

I'm just saying, being a lesbian is a huge part of the "big picture" that people tend to ignore completely when they wish they could transition. It might be a good reason to stop pushing towards the female side of the "middle path" and be happy with the relationship you have.

This is certainly something to consider as part of a transition plan, digging deep to know exactly where one is coming from in terms of their own sexuality. At this point, it's not something that I'm overly concerned with other than remembering what my friend mentioned above said to me, that she felt she needed to keep an open mind when it came to her own sexuality because she didn't want to be alone.


Ugh! That's how I felt for so long! I didn't accept myself. I basically idealized womanhood and thought I wasn't good enough to see myself as a "real woman." It really screwed up my perspective more than I realized. It was a depressing place to be at.

Veronica does a good job keeping me in check when it comes to the woman thing. Fact of the matter is that I accept myself to a great degree and what resides in my heart and soul is not trans, she is a woman. For better or worse, I am still seen by most, if not all people as being trans which in all likelihood would remain the case even should I ever transition (short of pure stealth). When it comes to this thing of ours, it is what it is. I guess my goal is for those who know me to think of me as their friend, perhaps their woman friend and less so their trans friend.


Ouch.

She might not actually hate every one of those things. She just hates that you're trying to kill off the man she married, and she hates that you're trying to invade her space in the role as the woman.

My ex was awesome at first. She accepted me as a woman more than I accepted myself. She'd even dated a few girls. She knew how to treat a woman. She loved to go shopping with me. She gave me my estrogen injections.

But in the end she wanted a more normal life for her and her daughters, and it was just too much for her feeling like she was losing her place as the woman.

The bottom line is that if you're a lesbian you have to be with a woman who's OK with being a lesbian. Otherwise it's going to all hit the fan sooner or later.

Mine hates the things these changes represent which is in fact the killing off of the guy she married.

Of all the heartfelt advice I have received, the one thing which I intend to do is to share with her emphatically what the endgame is, that I desire to remain on this middle path with her, that transition is not an inevitable conclusion to this whole thing. Despite our efforts though, we just haven't been able to make the time to actually talk at length about this. The good news is that we're getting along which is not only a testament to her ability to compartmentalize things but also that my elephant is safely back in her cage right now.

[Joanne Curl]

Sara,
I don't know why your posts touch me so. I don't if its because you voice the things that I too am feeling but don't have the courage to address or its because of the pain I sense when I read what you've written. I have followed your journey with interest on this site and have watched as you have evolved and become more comfortable as Sara and less comfortable as your male self while trying to maintain your relationship with your wife. You've made it clear that your wife isn't supportive of your feminine side yet it continues to expand and come more to the forefront. I pray that you and your wife come to some kind of understanding that allows you to continue to be husband and wife as Sara evolves.
Joanne

[Sara Jessica]

A couple updates, not just for the sake of keeping this thread alive (as in unlocked) but I'm actually happy to help keep it going...

On the home front, I have expressed exactly what I said I would, the kind of no-brainer advice that I have absorbed from the replies here. I made it crystal clear to her as to what the "endgame" is with this whole thing. Has it helped? Somewhat. I hope it has helped her as I'm sure she contemplates a future with someone who has such TG issues intertwined with every fiber of their being. She knows my goal is to stay with her.

And a concurrent development is that I have just come up with what should prove to be an acceptable closet solution. I will be using the existing architecture by reconstructing a closet that I removed about 5 years ago. Instead of sliding doors though, I will go with six-panel bi-fold doors that I plan on locking with a keyed pocket door lockset. This will be an eight foot closet and my plan is to devote just over half of it as Sara's little slice of heavenly organization. I will install a tower of shelving and/or drawers in the center which will serve as a barrier between the two halves and the "Sara" side will remain invisible as long as her bi-fold door remains shut. I also plan on putting in one of those sliding locks at the top on the Sara side to keep the door from accidentally being opened should one of the kids go into that area while I have my regular side opened up. The tricky part will be the whole organization thing to maximize the closet bar space by doubling up but still creating room for dresses to hang properly.


Sara,
I don't know why your posts touch me so. I don't if its because you voice the things that I too am feeling but don't have the courage to address or its because of the pain I sense when I read what you've written. I have followed your journey with interest on this site and have watched as you have evolved and become more comfortable as Sara and less comfortable as your male self while trying to maintain your relationship with your wife. You've made it clear that your wife isn't supportive of your feminine side yet it continues to expand and come more to the forefront. I pray that you and your wife come to some kind of understanding that allows you to continue to be husband and wife as Sara evolves.
Joanne

I'm so glad you have found something in my words. Of course they are cathartic for me to write but if these passages help someone else in some way, then all the better. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts and for your prayers.

[kimdl93]

Sara, take some pictures of your closet organization. it will be interesting to see how it comes together!

To the main point, has your wife responded or given any non-verbal cues to her reaction to the "end game" as you explained it to her? I'm hoping her concerns have been eased if not entirely put to rest.

[Allsteamedup]

I am sorry you have not had more responses from GGs.

Whilst all these modifications may have been small beer to you, you may like to reflect on your wife and childrens' situations.

I am currently in one of these modification periods. It isn't funny. If I try to discuss it, I am cut short, or he even denies, although I am standing there looking at the most recent modification....

When he prefers not to discuss it, he seems to think it doesn't matter. To me it is a kind of dishonesty, not just that another modification has come my way but I am supposed to ignore it....
To me this is a trust issue. You make light of your wife's responses and seem only to look at the relationship from your point of view.
Of course, you would like to remain with her. But she has plans too. They involve the man she married, not the woman he wants to become.

My husband says 'you can't see the changes most of the time...!' Or am I not entitled to a view? I currently have about 15% of the man I started with. That's not enough for me. Of couse I want him to be happy, but why doesn't he want the same for me?

I am shocked at how different his body looks without hair. The shape is completely different. The aged, uncared-for skin is scaly and lined. His hands and nails look ridiculous. I don't want a 'lesbian' partner.

I feel stupid now that I supported the clothing, makeup etc. I thought that was all there was. Not what I have now.

Women can sense that there is something going on. Often you try to be distant, to cover your cding tracks, but that just makes things worse.

Counselling might be a revelation. It would give your wife the opportunity to tell you how she really feels. You would have to confront that disdain etc

Older children are also very good at picking up on things. Their social lives get more varied and you may find you do not have so much time to dress at home.

Ask yourself seriously why you have pushed things so much. Your wife seems to have been sympathetic to your dressing, so why have you taken advantage so much? This is not a loving way to behave.

She will draw her own conclusions no matter how reassuring you want to be. If you really loved her, you would tell her the truth.

[ReineD]

Sorry that I missed your response to my response earlier (lost sight of the thread), but better late than never:



It's society that has constructed the binary, for better or for worse.

I disagree with this. I do not believe that gender is a construction, and the reality is that more than 95% of individuals in our society feel aligned to their birth genders. At the same time, there is a small percentage of people whose gender ID is not quite so clear cut and there is an even smaller percentage of people who feel they were born in entirely the wrong body.




I have shared with many others, both IRL and in these pages, my commitment to stay on this middle path.


Yes, from her POV I am on that proverbial slippery slope. She has no idea what next week, next month, or next year might bring. Heck, neither do I. But the fact remains that I am committed to staying on this path. The reason this is lost upon her? It's really quite simple, a lack of communication when it comes to this huge elephant in our relationship.

People are either fully congruent with their birth genders, or they are transsexual and feel they were born in the wrong bodies, or they know that they are gender non-conforming and in their psyches there resides characteristics and affinities of both genders. I understand a period of time when people are exploring and do not know who they are, but you've been freely expressing Sara for a while now, and so you must know how you feel in the deepest part of yourself?

If you are TS, you should NOT pretend that you aren't nor should you give the impression that you are staying on a middle path "for her". I don't think she wants to be married to a transsexual who is a reluctant male since as you describe, this condemns her to living a life with a male who is not fully present in his male life and also waiting for the other shoe to drop, not knowing when your proverbial bell will ring and you will feel compelled to pursue transition ... as happens with other TSs.

If you are not a reluctant male and you feel that you embrace both male and female aspects within yourself and you cannot fathom the idea of full transition at any time in the future, then you should tell her this and also believe it within yourself, which would mean putting things back into perspective for yourself.

You said earlier (post #30) that you would transition in a flash and by this I take it that you mean, had you known about yourself before a commitment to your marriage, kids, and your male life, you would have taken a different course. You also said that you are attached to the things you have built in your male life. To me, this means having built an appreciation for aspects of your male self and the things in life that revolve around your male self, in addition to wanting to express femininity. But to live a life having an insatiable desire to transition (which you also said) all the while living as a male a significant portion of the time seems like an unsatisfactory way to live a life while sitting on the fence. This translates, as mentioned, to not fully being present to your family members who know you as male and to also not know what might happen in the future and this is unsettling and stressful for any spouse to live with if she knows within the deepest part of herself that she is not lesbian and she cannot be married to a woman.

Does this make sense? You need to make up your mind which way you will genuinely live your life in the future. If it involves an insatiable desire to live as a woman you need to be honest with your wife about this and accept the outcome. If it involves appreciating the things that revolve around your male life and living in both genders alternatively because of this, you need to accept and honor this and not pine away for something else.

In my opinion.

[kimmy p]

Are your friends treating you poorly? Are they avoiding you? If not then don;t worry about it, and if so then they are not much of a friend anyways. I have not admitted anything to my friends.... they know, they would have to be stupid not to have guessed, but not a one has treated me differently. Be yourself and do what makes you happiest.

[Sally24]

You need to make up your mind which way you will genuinely live your life in the future. If it involves an insatiable desire to live as a woman you need to be honest with your wife about this and accept the outcome. If it involves appreciating the things that revolve around your male life and living in both genders alternatively because of this, you need to accept and honor this and not pine away for something else.

In my opinion.

Ideally this would be the outcome for all of us. Unfortunately that is far from easy. I myself am mostly happy with the middle path but there is no way to discount or eliminate that pining for something more. By the time you reach midlife you are aware that it is almost impossible to "have it all" regardless of what you are talking about. Everything is about compromise. You may be able to temper your desires with the logic of your choices but.........those alternatives will still linger in the back of your mind. The courage to choose one path even though it is less than ideal, and then stick with that choice is what shows our character. I think it takes as much courage to choose the path to transition as it does to stay in a "part-time" life. Both require determination and sacrifice, although different types. Here's to both types of courage!:drink:

[ReineD]

Thanks, Sally. I was not suggesting that one choice is more or less courageous than the other. My point was, if a TG/middlepather chooses to live as a man who expresses femininity occasionally, the bottom line is that this is the TG's choice and so why pine away? Why place all the responsibility on Loved Ones for choosing to not transition, when the TG also gains benefit from not transitioning, in other words, it is the TG's choice?

One of my fundamental beliefs is, we can choose how we will look at things. It's a glass full or half empty situation. We can choose to worry or not worry, to be jealous or not be jealous, to trust or not to trust, to let go of anger, disappointment, or not let go, etc. And our moods and behaviors will follow your thoughts. It's not the other way around. So if a TG makes a conscious decision that s/he will maintain a male life which also means that s/he reaps some of the benefits, then why decide to pine away for something that s/he herself decided to not pursue? Why not instead celebrate every moment of life, whether the moment is spent in guy or girl mode?

Of course, if she is TS then it will not be possible. But then if she is miserable living as a man, how miserable must her family members be while living with her?

I only intimately know how my SO feels and how she has chosen to live her life and the question I raise above is based on my direct observation of my SO, who also looked into HRT, FFS, transition, and having relationships with men in the past. It just seems that my SO is a lot happier having decided on a course of action and taking pleasure in all aspects of his and her life following this decision, than someone who decides on the same course of action and dooms themselves to forever having insatiable desires for a state of being that s/he herself has decided to not pursue.

[Sally24]

Oh I mostly agree with you Reine. I was just saying that there is only so much control you have over your own thoughts. Having made choices, I still wonder on what the alternatives might have been. I find it nearly impossible not to think of them.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

This is going to be one of the hardest posts to write.



I made it crystal clear to her as to what the "endgame" is with this whole thing.

What is the endgame? What did you say to her...exactly. Did you "use the words", and by words I mean THE word...transsexual?


what should prove to be an acceptable closet solution.

Well that's good news.


I also plan on putting in one of those sliding locks at the top on the Sara side to keep the door from accidentally being opened should one of the kids go into that area while I have my regular side opened up.

I really hate saying this: It's time for them to know. They deserve to know...and it will make logistics easier and it is better for them to be "told" by both of you than to accidentally find something or figure out the elephant themselves.



To the main point, has your wife responded or given any non-verbal cues to her reaction to the "end game" as you explained it to her?

Yes, this...what was her response.


I am sorry you have not had more responses from GGs.

Me too.


Whilst all these modifications may have been small beer to you

They're small...individually, but they add up into a pretty darn big elephant.


When he prefers not to discuss it, he seems to think it doesn't matter. To me it is a kind of dishonesty, not just that another modification has come my way but I am supposed to ignore it....
To me this is a trust issue.

It's DADT (don't ask don't tell)....it's the path of least resistance. Talking about it means talking about scary things and admitting what the things mean. The transperson is scared....they want the thing...but are afraid that if they said outright what they wanted, everything would come crashing down. So they do the thing...and expect to not be noticed or for the partner to not discuss it because they know the partner doesn't really want to talk about it either. The DADT goes both ways.


My husband says 'you can't see the changes most of the time...!' Or am I not entitled to a view? I currently have about 15% of the man I started with. That's not enough for me. Of couse I want him to be happy, but why doesn't he want the same for me?

He does want you to be happy. But he's thinking 15 percent man, is better than 0 percent man if you got divorced. He's thinking that 85 percent woman that still lets him have 100 percent of you and the kids is better than 100 percent woman that might lead to 0 percent you and kids. Most of us have seen the horror stories where transistioners lose all acess to their children.


I don't want a 'lesbian' partner.

I'm going to ask you a question. Do you say that? Do you say: "I don't want a lesbian partner, and that's what you are. I would be happier with a male and you would be happier with another lesbian"

The problem is, she fell in love with you because in some ways, she was always the lesbian...you just didn't know about it. It sucks, I know.


I feel stupid now that I supported the clothing, makeup etc. I thought that was all there was. Not what I have now.

You're not stupid....you didn't know. In fact, your transperson probably didn't know either, perhaps being too scared to fully examine their own feelings.


Counselling might be a revelation. It would give your wife the opportunity to tell you how she really feels. You would have to confront that disdain etc

I agree.


Older children are also very good at picking up on things. Their social lives get more varied and you may find you do not have so much time to dress at home.

Which is why I think Sara should tell the children.


Ask yourself seriously why you have pushed things so much. Your wife seems to have been sympathetic to your dressing, so why have you taken advantage so much?

Sara knows... I know. It's just hard for her to "say it"


She will draw her own conclusions no matter how reassuring you want to be. If you really loved her, you would tell her the truth.

What truth is that? Rhetorical question I know...since we're stepping around the truth....even me.


I understand a period of time when people are exploring and do not know who they are, but you've been freely expressing Sara for a while now, and so you must know how you feel in the deepest part of yourself?

I'm laughing and crying at the same time, Reine. Not laughing AT you but at the situation.

It's easy to both "know" and "not know" at the same time. Hell, I knew I was TS, in what was it? late 80's I think. But.... I was in a depressive state of mind, what I call now the "Dark Times", so I pushed it out of my "decision tree" so I wouldn't feel even more depressed. Hell, I'm STILL trying to keep it out of my mind to a certain extent so I don't cry all the time. It's a sort of "It's unlikely to actually happen so try not to think about that too much." Which is rather sad, since I have my hormone letter....but haven't used it, though it makes me feel better just having it.


If you are TS, you should NOT pretend that you aren't nor should you give the impression that you are staying on a middle path "for her". I don't think she wants to be married to a transsexual who is a reluctant male since as you describe, this condemns her to living a life with a male who is not fully present in his male life and also waiting for the other shoe to drop, not knowing when your proverbial bell will ring and you will feel compelled to pursue transition ... as happens with other TSs.

This...very much this. Sara....please, don't do this. It isn't fair or honest to you, or her. I know that you don't want to lose her and the kids, and you're afraid that if you transition, you'll lose acess, but....you're essentially trying to have most of your cake (Sara) and eating it too (wife). This whole situation is the reason I'm all about telling before marriage, to try to prevent the heartbreak of "this"


You said earlier (post #30) that you would transition in a flash and by this I take it that you mean, had you known about yourself before a commitment to your marriage, kids, and your male life, you would have taken a different course.

Yes.


You also said that you are attached to the things you have built in your male life. To me, this means having built an appreciation for aspects of your male self and the things in life that revolve around your male self, in addition to wanting to express femininity.


I see it differently. I see it as young Sara the TS, (who perhaps didn't even have the words for how she felt) wanting a female partner and family but thinking the "other" thing would forever put that out of the picture. So how to get a female partner and family? Try to hide away, to try to fake being male...to have the love she wanted.

I'm lucky in that sense...my self esteem was/is low enough that I never saw myself worthy of being dated, let alone loved...so I haven't. So I never fell into the trap like others have....i just have a different trap.



Does this make sense?

Yes, it does.


If it involves appreciating the things that revolve around your male life and living in both genders alternatively because of this, you need to accept and honor this and not pine away for something else.


Sara knows... and she thinks she can do that...without pining away. Maybe she can, but my gut tells me she will not. But the sad fact is...this happens quite a bit...and we usually do see pining. I don't want Sara in 20 years, after the kids have grown up...regretting her decision. Now right at this sentence, Sara is thinking: "How can I regret being with the kids as they grow...if I do you know what, I will lose the kids and lose that."


but there is no way to discount or eliminate that pining for something more. You may be able to temper your desires with the logic of your choices but.........those alternatives will still linger in the back of your mind.

This.


My point was, if a TG/middlepather chooses to live as a man who expresses femininity occasionally, the bottom line is that this is the TG's choice and so why pine away?

They pine because they're not true middle-pathers...they're TS's who are "settling"


Why place all the responsibility on Loved Ones for choosing to not transition, when the TG also gains benefit from not transitioning, in other words, it is the TG's choice?

It's easier that way. No big public divorce, no messy custody battles, it's the path of least resistance. The "other thing" is scary and leads to the unknown. At least the pining away is knowable.


It just seems that my SO is a lot happier having decided on a course of action and taking pleasure in all aspects of his and her life following this decision, than someone who decides on the same course of action and dooms themselves to forever having insatiable desires for a state of being that s/he herself has decided to not pursue.

Indeed, which is why I am specifically saying, right now, as Sara's #1 frame-dragging, slippery-slope encouraging cheerleader:

Sara, don't do this to yourself.

Though one of the reasons Sara IS doing this is because she personally knew and was friends with Christine Daniels....who's transition.. "did not go well". Probably scared her

Sara, that was her, you are you. The mistake Christine made wasn't the transitioning in and of itself...it was what she did after.

Veronica

[Raquel June]

If you are TS, you should NOT pretend that you aren't nor should you give the impression that you are staying on a middle path "for her". I don't think she wants to be married to a transsexual who is a reluctant male since as you describe, this condemns her to living a life with a male who is not fully present in his male life and also waiting for the other shoe to drop, not knowing when your proverbial bell will ring and you will feel compelled to pursue transition ... as happens with other TSs.

Like V said, this is true/important/etc.

I guess it just depends which one is more needy/dependant in the relationship, but so many people here seem to be either torturing themselves by trying to appease a spouse who doesn't approve of who they really are, or they're torturing their spouse by just constantly pushing their pseudo-transition further and further.

"I would transition in a second if..." and then there is the excuse for being afraid.

I've lived this all too much to be aggressively critical of it, though. I can sit here all day and assure people that all the happy ones out there are saying, "Why didn't I get over my fears sooner?" But, in the end, this is a pretty intense struggle we go through in our own minds, feeling crazy, feeling narcissistic, feeling like we're throwing so much away no matter what we do, and honestly not being able to put our finger on how important our trans-ness is in the grand scheme of things. We don't want to rock the boat, but we need to rock the boat. And it feels more like instability and sabotaging your own life.

In the end, we all need to realize that denying your trans-ness will not make you any happier than a gay guy denying his gay-ness and staying married. Sure, you've got this wonderful friend that you love, but you're both missing out on so much of life by not being honest. But there's not much you can say to someone who looks in the mirror now and then and says, "Hey, dumbass, do you really want to ruin what you have so you can pursue this dream of being a weirdo?"

Because people are afraid of change. And often confused about the value of what they have vs. the potential of what they could have.

You can get over loss. But having to live everyday with not taking a chance that you know you should is rough.

It's hard to see the reality of your own life and relationships. If people can be in abusive relationships and convince themselves they need that relationship, what hope does someone have who is in a kinda-OK relationship where the only real issue is that your wife wants to be with a guy and you hate living as a guy?

If these kinds of relationships could find a happy compromise, that would be awesome, but it always seems more like a middle-ground where everybody is unhappy. And the years go on.

[kimdl93]

After reading the last few comments, the thought came to me that people 'settle' all the time. We learn to live with, in some cases to endure all manner of disappointment and limitations. Sometimes we live as virtual prisoners of our unique realities. I know it takes enormous courage to confront the reality of being TS in the face of all that one potentially puts at risk. So I can't fault anyone who tries to accommodate themselves to their situation by half measures and incremental changes.

Will it work? Maybe, maybe not. Life is a continuous game of chance.

[Sara Jessica]

I am sorry you have not had more responses from GGs.

I am too but Reine has been here for me, posing some challenging thoughts (including her most recent ones, quite the zingers that I will need to respond to as well). I'm glad you have shared yours.


Whilst all these modifications may have been small beer to you, you may like to reflect on your wife and childrens' situations.

Trust me, I am not running around thinking these things are small. Fact of the matter is that we are talking about the entire essence of my little "elephant" theory. I have piled on. I have crossed a line. I get that.


I am currently in one of these modification periods. It isn't funny. If I try to discuss it, I am cut short, or he even denies, although I am standing there looking at the most recent modification....

I will talk about it any time she wishes to do so. The problem is that it sometimes degenerates and lately there have been two discussions that have turned quite nasty.


When he prefers not to discuss it, he seems to think it doesn't matter. To me it is a kind of dishonesty, not just that another modification has come my way but I am supposed to ignore it....To me this is a trust issue. You make light of your wife's responses and seem only to look at the relationship from your point of view.

I have never made light of anything regarding my wife's POV. I have absolute empathy for her situation. It can suck more often than not to be married to someone who is TG, whether a CD'er or otherwise. And it sucks beyond belief that my dear wife, the love of my life, the mother of my children, has to put up with this. I often wonder why she does so and it comes down to love.

But guess what? Although I cherish the POV that comes with being TG (because it is all I have ever known), it sucks to be this way as well.


Of course, you would like to remain with her. But she has plans too. They involve the man she married, not the woman he wants to become.

I think our mutual plan is "til death do us part".


My husband says 'you can't see the changes most of the time...!' Or am I not entitled to a view? I currently have about 15% of the man I started with. That's not enough for me. Of couse I want him to be happy, but why doesn't he want the same for me?

This is where things get tricky and where many TG's get quite defensive, saying stuff like "it's my body, I can do what I wish" (technically true) or "I'm still the same guy underneath" (utter BS).

My elephant has evolved over time and has settled into this place we find ourselves in now. My changes are not in an effort to enhance some sort of dressing experience as you imply (although what they do for my feminine presentation is an undeniable by-product). Rather, my changes have been made in an effort to bring my outward appearance more in line with what is in my heart. You see, you and I are very similar in that what we feel at the core of our being is essentially the same. The difference is that your outward appearance doesn't betray you while mine does. And at the same time, the dissonance that I feel is ever-present and can be crushing. Such is the life of one with GID. Reine speaks of this when she talks about 95+% of people giving no second thought to their gender. What I would give to experience that feeling. The closest I come is when I am out as a female and the outside world meshes with my inner self to create these joyous moments of being when all seems right, when all is at absolute peace.

When presenting as a guy, as I do 95+% of the time, I am capable of coming very close to those moments but bubbling underneath the surface is the ever-present gender issue just waiting for any trigger to become louder. Anything can set it off. It's not about "boo-hoo I cannot dress up". Instead, it's "I cannot be". This is the most difficult thing for anyone who is not TG to get their head around, being uncomfortable in your own skin from a gender perspective. It's something I dare to say you give no second thought to, yet it's something that I probably have to deal with thousands of times per day, both on a conscious and subconscious level. Yes, the white noise is always there, it's just a matter of how loud it is.


I am shocked at how different his body looks without hair. The shape is completely different. The aged, uncared-for skin is scaly and lined. His hands and nails look ridiculous. I don't want a 'lesbian' partner.

This is hard to respond to because you are describing a visceral reaction to your SO's presentation which is quite valid. And only recently have I seen the same kind of reaction out of my wife.

What am I doing about it? Nothing right now other than to make sure I keep the nails short (why pile on even more?) and I try to keep my hair in a pony whenever we're together.

People change as they get older. Their appearance changes. They might gain weight. There comes a point in time where one might bear little resemblance to the person they were when they got married. The thing is, those changes usually don't include efforts to feminize the typical male appearance. I can give no advice on how to cope with your SO's changes because your reaction is what it is. I will not say he is the same guy underneath it all. I cannot say you'll get used to it. But at the same time I cannot suggest that he revert back. There has to be some middle ground there but I'm the last person to see it, seems how I've pretty much ignored where the middle ground is on this subject in my own relationship.


I feel stupid now that I supported the clothing, makeup etc. I thought that was all there was. Not what I have now.

What is different now? Is your SO a CD? From what you describe it sounds as if he is still a CD.

My situation was in fact different. I've said before that I disclosed prior to getting married. Heck, it was before we even got engaged. But I allowed her to believe it was a "dressing" thing and it was much later into our marriage when I confessed it was a TS thing. I may be wrong about this but I'd think it would be easier to manage the CDing in a relationship context than having a partner who is TS, body modifications notwithstanding.


Women can sense that there is something going on. Often you try to be distant, to cover your cding tracks, but that just makes things worse. Counseling might be a revelation. It would give your wife the opportunity to tell you how she really feels. You would have to confront that disdain etc

If she felt a need for counseling, I'd be all for it.

Our level of DADT is based on her non-participation in all of this. That is, we don't have a communication issue beyond the gist of this whole thing. Instead, she doesn't wish to see it and it's not like I come home from an outing and saying "hey honey, guess what I did" or "look at what I bought".

But what has become undeniable is that she has been holding back on some of her feelings. That is something which could benefit from counseling.


Older children are also very good at picking up on things. Their social lives get more varied and you may find you do not have so much time to dress at home.

This is true but it's not like I get a lot of alone time at home right now. This is one of the reasons my quiet time in the mornings are so important.


Ask yourself seriously why you have pushed things so much. Your wife seems to have been sympathetic to your dressing, so why have you taken advantage so much? This is not a loving way to behave.

If I have taken advantage, then so be it. It wouldn't be unreasonable for her to see it that way.

Why have I done so? If one is feminine in their heart, why does it matter what the outside looks like?

Because it does. Simple as that.

My biggest revelation has been the long hair. Even in guy mode it helps me to see the woman within. The problem is that my wife can see that too which is why I try to keep it ponied around her.


She will draw her own conclusions no matter how reassuring you want to be. If you really loved her, you would tell her the truth.

Like I said, she knows the truth.


I disagree with this. I do not believe that gender is a construction, and the reality is that more than 95% of individuals in our society feel aligned to their birth genders. At the same time, there is a small percentage of people whose gender ID is not quite so clear cut and there is an even smaller percentage of people who feel they were born in entirely the wrong body.

I phrased that wrong Reine. I guess a way to blend the sentiments is that 95+% of people out there feel aligned to their birth genders and as a result, society simply tends to reinforce the binary which is all good for those 95+% who have no issues with their gender.


People are either fully congruent with their birth genders, or they are transsexual and feel they were born in the wrong bodies, or they know that they are gender non-conforming and in their psyches there resides characteristics and affinities of both genders. I understand a period of time when people are exploring and do not know who they are, but you've been freely expressing Sara for a while now, and so you must know how you feel in the deepest part of yourself?

Yes, I do.


If you are TS, you should NOT pretend that you aren't nor should you give the impression that you are staying on a middle path "for her". I don't think she wants to be married to a transsexual who is a reluctant male since as you describe, this condemns her to living a life with a male who is not fully present in his male life and also waiting for the other shoe to drop, not knowing when your proverbial bell will ring and you will feel compelled to pursue transition ... as happens with other TSs.

This reminds me of a post in the TS section which suggested that someone who eschews transition for the sake of their family is the most masculine of endeavors. It came across as if such a path was akin to laying down on a land mine in order to save others and it was contrasted by an example of the nurturing sacrifice that is often made by women. While these two examples might be worlds apart, I reject the notion that I am laying on a land mine and am therefore exhibiting a fundamentally male behavior in my decision making process. I am where I am for the sake of everyone involved. I am not martyring myself in this whole thing. I am simply considering the bigger picture.


If you are not a reluctant male and you feel that you embrace both male and female aspects within yourself and you cannot fathom the idea of full transition at any time in the future, then you should tell her this and also believe it within yourself, which would mean putting things back into perspective for yourself.

You said earlier (post #30) that you would transition in a flash and by this I take it that you mean, had you known about yourself before a commitment to your marriage, kids, and your male life, you would have taken a different course. You also said that you are attached to the things you have built in your male life. To me, this means having built an appreciation for aspects of your male self and the things in life that revolve around your male self, in addition to wanting to express femininity. But to live a life having an insatiable desire to transition (which you also said) all the while living as a male a significant portion of the time seems like an unsatisfactory way to live a life while sitting on the fence. This translates, as mentioned, to not fully being present to your family members who know you as male and to also not know what might happen in the future and this is unsettling and stressful for any spouse to live with if she knows within the deepest part of herself that she is not lesbian and she cannot be married to a woman.

Does this make sense? You need to make up your mind which way you will genuinely live your life in the future. If it involves an insatiable desire to live as a woman you need to be honest with your wife about this and accept the outcome. If it involves appreciating the things that revolve around your male life and living in both genders alternatively because of this, you need to accept and honor this and not pine away for something else.

In my opinion.

Let's get back to what a "middle path" means to me, and could mean to a lot who identify as TS. Transition is not the only valid path for us. One can choose not to transition for a myriad of reasons. My choice is rooted in the fact that I have found fulfillment in the male side of my life (my family being the most important aspect of this), just as I have found a different kind of fulfillment as a female. I am not TS in a classic sense that I grew up with absolute hatred of my body. Instead, I grew up with a lack of information and as such, I pretty much went with the flow and lived a life consistent with what I witnessed going on around me.

I could formally transition tomorrow and everything could be hunky dory. I could do so and I could blow up every aspect of my life including the standard of living of my children (as I am a sole provider, something which I don't think I have mentioned before). Transition in my case would be the most selfish of decisions. The only thing which would be more selfish is suicide and if my darkest moments ever became darker to the point where that was a consideration, then that may very well prove to be my own personal bell.

Am I pining to transition? No, I don't think I am. Is the thought on my mind often? You bet. But so is the thought of staying on this path of mine. There is a difference between coping and pining which is part of the reason I enjoy writing about all of this, because it is a coping mechanism.

Is such an existence fair to my wife and family? It seems to beat the alternative from all points of view. The best thing I can do is NOT to let any darkness enter my soul which can be detected by my family. Sometimes easier said than done.

Is this fair to me? Because I am able to find fulfillment in the guy side of my life, then yes, it's fair. Is sacrifice involved? Absolutely.

I was in a store the other day and I saw the cutest older couple, they were both just adorable. What pains me is that I cannot see myself clearly in that picture. While no one is guaranteed anything specific in their future, it is still unsettling that the dream of growing old with the one you love might not be the given that it should be.


Ideally this would be the outcome for all of us. Unfortunately that is far from easy. I myself am mostly happy with the middle path but there is no way to discount or eliminate that pining for something more. By the time you reach midlife you are aware that it is almost impossible to "have it all" regardless of what you are talking about. Everything is about compromise. You may be able to temper your desires with the logic of your choices but.........those alternatives will still linger in the back of your mind. The courage to choose one path even though it is less than ideal, and then stick with that choice is what shows our character. I think it takes as much courage to choose the path to transition as it does to stay in a "part-time" life. Both require determination and sacrifice, although different types. Here's to both types of courage!:drink:

Nicely said Sally, thank you.


Everything she said...


Everything she said as well.

I'm out of time, I'll respond soon.

[ReineD]

I am too but Reine has been here for me, posing some challenging thoughts (including her most recent ones, quite the zingers that I will need to respond to as well).

I'm sorry, Sara. My comments were not meant to zing. I had gotten the impression that you felt uncomfortable living as a man and are choosing a course of action in order to make your wife happy, which although initially may appear as the right thing to do, does not seem as if it would be satisfactory for either you or your wife in the long run. This describes a situation where your exterior actions don't match your inner reality and in my own, personal experience (not related to gender), this is an unbearable way to live. I was trying to understand how it is possible to compromise oneself like this in the long term.




My choice is rooted in the fact that I have found fulfillment in the male side of my life (my family being the most important aspect of this), just as I have found a different kind of fulfillment as a female. I am not TS in a classic sense that I grew up with absolute hatred of my body.



Am I pining to transition? No, I don't think I am. Is the thought on my mind often? You bet. But so is the thought of staying on this path of mine. There is a difference between coping and pining which is part of the reason I enjoy writing about all of this, because it is a coping mechanism.



Is such an existence fair to my wife and family? It seems to beat the alternative from all points of view. The best thing I can do is NOT to let any darkness enter my soul which can be detected by my family. Sometimes easier said than done.

Is this fair to me? Because I am able to find fulfillment in the guy side of my life, then yes, it's fair. Is sacrifice involved? Absolutely.

OK, fair enough. I misunderstood, based on your statement that you have an insatiable desire to be female. If you find peace and joy in both your gender expressions because this is who you feel you are, then I agree that the middle path is absolutely the best available option. It is also the path that my own SO has chosen, which s/he chose long before s/he met me.

Thank you for your patient and considerate responses. :hugs:

[Sara Jessica]

I'm sorry, Sara. My comments were not meant to zing. I had gotten the impression that you felt uncomfortable living as a man and are choosing a course of action in order to make your wife happy, which although initially may appear as the right thing to do, does not seem as if it would be satisfactory for either you or your wife in the long run. This describes a situation where your exterior actions don't match your inner reality and in my own, personal experience (not related to gender), this is an unbearable way to live. I was trying to understand how it is possible to compromise oneself like this in the long term.

No Reine, I'm sorry...I meant that in a good way, that your comments were zingers.

I see this like the advice I received from a friend regarding counselors. You want to find one who will challenge you. I see many of your comments as being very insightful and challenging at the same time and there is so much value in that.


OK, fair enough. I misunderstood, based on your statement that you have an insatiable desire to be female. If you find peace and joy in both your gender expressions because this is who you feel you are, then I agree that the middle path is absolutely the best available option. It is also the path that my own SO has chosen, which s/he chose long before s/he met me.

Thank you for your patient and considerate responses. :hugs:

Yes, the desire to be female is insatiable in that the only way to satisfy the need would be to transition which we know is a place I'm doing my best to avoid. For me, for my situation, transition would be trading one set of issues for an entirely new one and this is really the root of my intent to stay on this path of mine. It has to do with where I compromise because no matter what decision I make, there is tremendous compromise involved. Both paths are tremendously difficult.

So in my present situation, we all know that one day things might become unbearable, where the compromise chosen is untenable to the point where taking the other path becomes not only a viable option but one necessary for my survival. Heck, the odds might be against me on this one but I do feel it's important to give this a shot.

[Sara Jessica]

Things are good. Surprisingly good. It reminds me of what my wife and I are capable of, such happiness on both sides. But as has been the case throughout our marriage, the swings of the pendulum have been more dramatic than they would be if the TG issues weren't present. There is part of me which acknowledges this, that the current state of bliss isn't necessarily a permanent one. But there was a time not all that long ago when I thought that finding that state of perpetual happiness was somehow dependent on my wife finally "getting" me. That being willing to hang out with me while presenting as female and opening the floodgates of communication would be the ticket. These days, I don't believe these things are necessary. I think I "get" her in that I have a better understanding of what she is going through and sometimes it's better not to force an issue which might be part of some fantastical ideal, my elephant notwithstanding of course.

So all that said, here we are in the hustle & bustle of the holiday season. Things have been busy on so many fronts that my head is spinning. What happened this weekend though was kind of interesting when looked at in the context of our version of DADT.

Friday night, we were going to this holiday dinner with colleagues who I work with at an amazing restaurant. My wife was lamenting that she didn't have anything to wear so as I sometimes do, I retreated into my "closet" and pulled out this cute black Calvin Klein dress which I bought around this time last year but had yet to wear. I loved the style but it is a size small. It fit me but honestly, a medium would have been better so it has gone unworn ever since. Of course it fit her much better and she looked beautiful. The dress is hers now.

Fast forward to Saturday night. She had bought a couple dresses for a Christmas party but neither were working out so well. Back to my bag of tricks where I found this purple Max Studio dress which I had purchased on Black Friday. This time I had two of them. I gave her the medium which still had the Nordstrom tags on it. This one fit me well enough but I liked the dress so much that I found it in large which worked a bit better for me (go figure the sizing thing, we've gone from small to large and everywhere in between). This dress was even better than Friday's. She looked amazing, like a jewel among her wonderful friends who have known one another over 20 years.

The moral of the story, sometimes it can be helpful having an elephant in the house :).

ps - VM & Raquel, I still owe you replies.

[weekend woman]

Besides singing show tunes I think your elephant may have started to tap dance a little.

[ReineD]

This dress was even better than Friday's. She looked amazing, like a jewel ...

OK, so do you hire yourself out as an image consultant/personal shopper for friends on this board too? I could use a little "looking amazing, like a jewel" myself. :D :D :D

[Sara Jessica]

OK, so do you hire yourself out as an image consultant/personal shopper for friends on this board too? I could use a little "looking amazing, like a jewel" myself. :D :D :D

Not to toot my own horn or anything but that very thing has been suggested to me in the past, or even to write some sort of column. I've always kind of shrugged it off.

Does it make it any sweeter that the dress came from Nordstrom Rack for only $17.90 (regular $98)??? Now THAT is something I really enjoy, finding deals of the century like this. Yet it is most certainly the reason my closet situation has been such an issue. I can't win for winning, can i???

[Rogina B]

Sharing clothes is the easy part,isn't it? Many of us try to balance in order to keep everyone happy and the financial part of blowing up ourselves to start over is often the factor that keeps us balancing.My experience with kids is that they take their cue from Mom..if Mom is cool,then they are cool.The eyeliner or mascara incident reinforces that..My daughter has known Rogina since age 5 and goes to the grocery store in our area with her "Aunt Rogina"[in case she bumps into school friends].It has been years now since she had any curiosity in my closet. At 11 now,she helps me hang up clothes and often asks if I have anything she can wear. However,the acceptance comes back to her mother's attitude. To my Venezuelan wife who enjoys "being looked at",Rogina represents a third girl in her house.Sometimes this guest is more wanted than others,but she has accepted that Rogina is a big part of me and that isn't going away.I too,at this point,am the sole provider and perhaps that is a big factor..[you think?] My wife is Venezuelan and was raised Catholic.To her thinking,we just get painted with the "wide brush" that covers gay and gender deviants in the Latin countries. It's "your world" is how she refers to us and says that she "has" to accept it,cause it obviously is not going away. However,my daughter sees it as an American liberal minded kid that is accepting of people's diversity and has told me so.I don't want to blow up my world as I would only feel I had been selfish,afterwards.

[GabbiSophia]

That's good stuff!! Hey keep it up at least they haven't disowned you! I know my elephant is beating its way out but i am stepping on it tryin.g my best to hold it in to fam and friends.

[joan47]

Jamie , add me to your list with Butterfly Bill and sissy Stephanie
I am a feminine male

In male mode I

Have pierced ears
thin arched eyebrows
long arylic nails
shave all over
necklace
braclet
Wear leggings with boots, tight boot cut jeans, or skinny jeans or jeggings
girls tops and coats

[Sara Jessica]

Sharing clothes is the easy part,isn't it? Many of us try to balance in order to keep everyone happy and the financial part of blowing up ourselves to start over is often the factor that keeps us balancing.My experience with kids is that they take their cue from Mom..if Mom is cool,then they are cool.The eyeliner or mascara incident reinforces that..My daughter has known Rogina since age 5 and goes to the grocery store in our area with her "Aunt Rogina"[in case she bumps into school friends].It has been years now since she had any curiosity in my closet. At 11 now,she helps me hang up clothes and often asks if I have anything she can wear. However,the acceptance comes back to her mother's attitude. To my Venezuelan wife who enjoys "being looked at",Rogina represents a third girl in her house.Sometimes this guest is more wanted than others,but she has accepted that Rogina is a big part of me and that isn't going away.I too,at this point,am the sole provider and perhaps that is a big factor..[you think?] My wife is Venezuelan and was raised Catholic.To her thinking,we just get painted with the "wide brush" that covers gay and gender deviants in the Latin countries. It's "your world" is how she refers to us and says that she "has" to accept it,cause it obviously is not going away. However,my daughter sees it as an American liberal minded kid that is accepting of people's diversity and has told me so.I don't want to blow up my world as I would only feel I had been selfish,afterwards.

Very interesting comments Rogina, thank you so much for sharing. And you'll see a very minor segue in the words that follow....

Update time, it's been a while. My Elephant has been behaving pretty well of late. And things at home have been overall terrific. Still, there is the occasional comment from my wife, "when are you going to cut your hair?" which comes and goes out of the blue with no real resolution. She voices her displeasure, I either say now's not the time to talk about it or I say something that resigns her to the fact that I'm not gonna cut it.

Or am I?

Let this be the moment I proclaim in writing, HAIR TODAY GONE TOMORROW. Yes, I'm going to cut it. I have thought seriously about this for a while now, it's time. But before anyone thinks I am going to familiarize myself with my wig once again, that is not going to happen as long as the follicles on top of my head continue to do their job. Going on three years without a wig, it'd be really hard to go back there. Instead, I am going to take my style back to somewhere between post #3 & picture 2 in post #8 of this thread...

www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?182011-HAIR-volution&highlight=

With a nod to picture 1 in post #16. You see, every step of the way on my hair journey has made me think "wow, I can really live with this" yet the next steps have always been that much better. Yes, I will miss my hair cascading down my back. And it will grow back if I choose to go back down that road. In the meantime, I'm going to give this a try.

Yesterday I spent about a half hour talking to one of my stylists and I told her my plan. She understands me 1000% and even though she knows the pain that is going into this decision, with her help I will still be able to manage a 100% natural & feminine hairstyle which can better transition to work in guy mode. She has about three months to think about it because this is all going to happen after the Diva Las Vegas trip in April. It will be bittersweet for sure but I think I can do this. And even better, I have enough to donate to Locks of Love.

So yesterday evening my wife and I had a date night for the first time since the holidays (very busy social calendar throughout this month). Over dinner I shared with her my plan which was met with a smile that I haven't seen out of her in quite a while. She has a very open mind as to what my stylist will eventually do for me. She is so very pleased and of course that makes me happy.

Then as we talked a bit further, it came up that the other day I accidentally left my "closet" door wide open (no, haven't built my new closet yet, have been working on other honey-do's around the house). She was pissed when she discovered it, saying that I was "trying to make the kids find out about me". Of course this is not the case, whether consciously or on a subconscious level. I explained to her that to have something like this discovered in that manner rarely has positive outcomes, that if the day comes when our kids know this of me, it has to be in a way controlled by her and I. Usually a comment like this is followed by "that'll NEVER happen" or worse but this time I managed to explain to her that if we are ever to go there, she needs to control this deep seated absolute shame that she harbors of this part of me, that this shame is something which tremendously hurts my feelings. She acknowledged this and essentially said she would try to work on it.

Wow, the first productive conversation in forever. We could be onto something bigger and better when it comes to the continued integration of my Elephant in our daily lives. The thought of someday having my kids understand what I am all about is uplifting. Not that this is likely to happen tomorrow but the hope for someday is real. And it's times like these when I feel as if the balancing act I have a precarious hold upon might actually be sustainable. Time will tell.

In the meantime, three months and counting until the hair goes bye bye. I plan on enjoying it, after which time I hope to embrace what will be a new signature style for me. I am optimistic about the entire prospect right now. May I be just as confident with this decision when the rubber hits the road in late April.

[steftoday]

Congrats on reaching a middle ground with your wife on your hair. I think your new haircut (based on the photos you referenced) is going to be awesome looking.
I am in the process of letting my hair get longer again. Like you, as long as I have a full head of it, I might as well take advantage of it... :)

[PretzelGirl]

Now that is definitely a decision based on love. I know that was a tough decision and it is a fine example for all of us of trying to find a compromise. I hope it comes out even better than you are anticipating Sara. :hugs:

[Rogina B]

I just think that having a whole household accept your female personna is so important toward coping and staying on the middle ground.When you have the freedom to be you and the acceptance from your kids that you are their Dad,no matter how you are dressed,things become easier. Living as genderfluid can then be a reality. My 11 yr old daughter[only child] is open minded toward many things that others aren't from the non conventional style at home.I think you will see that having acceptance at home will take away some of the pining for what"might have been".For some of us,[you included]the guilt would be overwhelming from ditching family to live in a refrigerator box on the side of the road in order to afford to transition and most likely die alone.Best to make the most of that half full glass that you now have!

[Sara Jessica]

Allow me to clarify something. I thought about this after this morning's post and I worried that I might be misinterpreted.

If there is ever to be disclosure to my children, this is not intended for me to EVER present as female in their presence. Short of going full time, that is simply not going to be part of the equation which is my decision that I am all good with. What disclosure would allow is understanding on their part and elimination of the subterfuge that gets more and more difficult the older they become. It might allow for them to see some feminine traits in me or understand those which they currently detect but again, there will be no running around in women's clothing around them. That part of it just isn't important to me.

[ReineD]

Well, I was a teenager during the years when a guy was a dork if he didn't have long hair. The guy that I had a huge crush on in high school had long blond hair tied at the nape. My father thought this was horrible. lol.

And wouldn't you know it ... 30 years later I fell in love with someone who just happened to also have long blonde hair tied at the nape. :D

... it's acceptable in my SO's work environment though. Just about everyone has long hair. It's a creative field.

[Sara Jessica]

Hi Reine, great points but my career is in a very conservative business environment. I am considered a leader as well, both in title and the way others see me. These are things which make it very challenging to carry on with the long hair although my decision has absolutely nothing to do with work. No one has said anything to me, clients haven't shunned me to the best of my knowledge. But I'm sure it has some people saying WTF.

There are two extremes when it comes to body/appearance modifications such as these when in a relationship, "it's my body and I'll do what I please" and allowing the spouse to dictate what one can and cannot do when it comes to appearance. In my case, I have allowed my hair to grow in spite of my wife finding the look to be utterly unattractive to her eyes. She is right, I look better in guy mode with short hair, no question. But the last couple years have found me on the former end of the extremes in doing what I please despite her opinion. Now I'm at a point where I really feel a need to try to pull back a bit. My goal is to find a happy medium, so to speak. I guess part of what I want to do is take my hairstyle back to when I was in high school-into-college when it was short but there was a lot on top (I had kind of long sweeping "new wave" bangs). Hopefully this will work out to put my Elephant more in the background but still present without a wig when out & about.

[AnneB1nderful]

Sara,
You are so considerate. This "gender fluidity" does seem to be confusing. Reading all these different posts of where everyone can find their "balance" in this life does seem to be fluid. It changes based on our SOs acceptance, tolerance, or complete rejection of this lifestyle. But, that is true with any relationship and any lifestyle choice. If you chose to join a motorcycle club and an SO thought that motorcycles are too dangerous and motorcycle clubs are just gangs, you'd be going thru similar struggles - Constantly struggling with the thought "How often can I ride my bike and go out with friends without causing too much anxiety on my SO?"

Balance is the key. I admire your commitment and working out that balance.

[Rogina B]

Allow me to clarify something. I thought about this after this morning's post and I worried that I might be misinterpreted.

If there is ever to be disclosure to my children, this is not intended for me to EVER present as female in their presence. Short of going full time, that is simply not going to be part of the equation which is my decision that I am all good with. What disclosure would allow is understanding on their part and elimination of the subterfuge that gets more and more difficult the older they become. It might allow for them to see some feminine traits in me or understand those which they currently detect but again, there will be no running around in women's clothing around them. That part of it just isn't important to me.
I do not see why you seem afraid to be able to be Sara around your immediate family.How is there a half way on this? Locked closet/open closet? Where is the middle ground that allows you to not hide yourself from your family?

[Sara Jessica]

I do not see why you seem afraid to be able to be Sara around your immediate family.How is there a half way on this? Locked closet/open closet? Where is the middle ground that allows you to not hide yourself from your family?

Because it's not driven by fear by any stretch of the imagination.

Think of all of the tales in these pages of women who have seen their SO presenting as female and cannot get that ingrained image out of their mind's eye. While my wife has "seen" me, I have no need to have my kid's image of their father changed in that way, short of full transition at which time visual disclosure would be necessary. I have no desire to dress up every day and run around the house. I acknowledge that my thoughts on this could change someday but at this time, it's just not where I'm at with this whole thing.

[Kathi Lake]

Perhaps she's remembering a discussion I had with my son when he inadvertently found out. I later said to him that it was probably going to take a lot of mental steel wool to erase the image of his dad in a dress from his mind. He replied that it would indeed take a copious amount, but that he was willing to out of love. :)

Kathi

[Rogina B]

Perhaps she's remembering a discussion I had with my son when he inadvertently found out. I later said to him that it was probably going to take a lot of mental steel wool to erase the image of his dad in a dress from his mind. He replied that it would indeed take a copious amount, but that he was willing to out of love. :)

Kathi

So Kathi,How has it gone with your kids? I am Dad no matter how I am dressed and my 11 yr old daughter fully agrees!

[Kathy4ever]

Wow I am going through the same thing in my marriage. We have been married 20 years as well. I.m also at the point of not knowing what to do too. it seems unfair that if something gives us joy we have to hide or stop. There has to be a level playing field for both of us. Don't knoww what that is but there has a be a way for both to be happy. Yes there is a big elephant in our house.
This is going to be a difficult post. I'm not entirely sure where it'll go so please bear with me.

I have talked repeatedly about my efforts to find peace and love on a middle path. My middle path is defined as finding fulfillment on both sides of the gender fence in an attempt to stave off transition. Everyone who knows me understands that I do so out of love and respect for the life that I have built, namely family and career.

Many others have chimed in, talking about how they are in almost identical situations. There are a fair number of us out there for whom all things being equal would transition. We choose to remain true to our families. We attempt balance. I do believe we are capable of finding the fulfillment we are looking for. Many have described finding just that. Many are truly happy in this dual pursuit.

Still, there are others, mostly within the TS part of the gender spectrum, who legitimately question whether those of us on such a path are just kidding ourselves. Whether it's a "failure to launch" or that true happiness will certainly evade anyone who attempts to deny their true calling, they question the sustainability of this whole thing. I totally get where they are coming from as I am questioning that at this very time.

My elephant is a metaphor for the changes I have made in my appearance. When you think about it, each of these changes is in favor of my female presentation and at the expense of my "male" side. Yes, expense. Like it or not, more guys out there may be doing some or all of the things I have done but it doesn't mean any of it is perceived as normal. "Normal" males are furry. Normal males, especially my age, don't have over a foot of hair cascading off of the back of their head. I can rationalize it all I want but this whole effort flies in the face of what society thinks of as normal. I have transformed from utterly normal to an outlier. But I truly don't give a hoot what anyone else thinks.

Except for one person, my wife.

And despite the absolute joy that I have cultivated on both sides of the gender fence, it feels as if things are coming to a crossroads. You see, aside from the comments about my hair over the last couple of years, the rest of my elephant has remained just that when it comes to my wife, an elephant. That which is not brought up but we both know she's there. So in talking yesterday about some important logistical issues which have to do with my being able to manage this whole thing in a stealthy way within my own home (as in keeping my growing children in the dark), it finally came out...her utter disdain for each and every change that my elephant represents. The removal of my body hair, she hates it. My long hair of course she despises. Even my facial electrolysis that I have been slowly chipping away at (which I began with her tacit approval). All of these things represent the erasure of the man she married and are a constant reminder of who & what I am.

There are so many fallacies in these things many of us do, here are just a couple of them...


I'm still the same person as I always have been. (Yes, perhaps you are the same person but now you have different packaging that really, we cannot expect our SO's to be able to accept no matter how much we might plead otherwise).
It's my body, no one has the right to tell me what I can do with it. (Guess what? Many of our SO's exercise such a right as part of the marriage partnership.)


I mentioned tacit approval. Most, if not all of the changes I have made...heck, this probably holds true with my outing schedule, all seems to be based on some sort of tacit approval when in reality, it appears that it's simple exasperation on her part. Why say no when I will probably do what I want anyway. Has her giving that inch lead to my taking of the mile? Perhaps. Would she be happier if she had kept me in check early on? Definitely. Would I have been happier? Hard to say. I probably wouldn't know any better if my modus operandi in staving off a lifetime of TS feelings was to be closeted away.

So here we are at those crossroads. I have some choices to make but in all fairness, I need to share the nature of the seed of this discontent. Long story short, the place where I keep all of my stuff in our home must revert to it's original purpose. In other words, time to finish a remodel and this area which I have co-opted as my own cannot be this way any longer. I have a solution to build a small walk-in closet as a place to keep my stuff secure (as in away from the prying eyes of children...she is adamant that we won't be telling the kids). We're talking small, 15 square feet that can be tastefully done within the existing architecture of our home. 15 square feet that allows me to actually have a little place for my stuff without having to rely upon totes, file cabinet drawers, garment bags, etc. 15 square feet that I am able to accept NOT growing beyond. While one can do a lot with 15 square feet, by definition it would be pretty much impossible to turn into a hoarding situation.

So what does she think of this idea? It ain't gonna happen. We have gone around and around on this many times over the last year and yesterday I pinned her down on the root of her disapproval. It all comes down to what it represents, a closet for MY women's stuff. When all is said and done, it seems to be yet another reminder that she isn't going to have.

The solution for her is easy. Put all my stuff in totes. Or even spend the $$$ to rent a storage locker (I can just see Storage Wars right now if they were to ever get ahold of my stuff!!!). But to build this closet? Nope. To rebuild a sliding-door closet with my stuff in there unsecured? Nope.

This is the point where I dig my heels in. I refuse to live my life out of totes. I am already disorganized to the point where I have a tote full of amazing outfits that have been worn once, only to be tossed into this tote for eventual laundry or dry cleaning. I'd probably be able to go a couple years without shopping with all of these outfits that are kind of forgotten to the point where they still seem brand new to me. Getting away for an outing is hard enough the way it is now, I cannot imagine having to fish through a multitude of totes and garment bags to fish out the stuff I need to get ready on the fly as I often do.

At this point my options are few. I could give in and live out of totes, not that I have a really good place to keep any and besides, the security issue would remain with the kids. I can also play the martyr (which I acknowledge is quite the game but honestly, I feel as if I'm backed into a corner). I can eschew all things feminine and put it all away. I can go so far as to wipe away my elephant, either some or all of what has cultivated her existence. And not to create some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy or something like that but I know exactly what this will do to me emotionally.

The thing is, in this mode we're in that is essentially a step above DADT, all she is seeing is the very low percentage of my time that is devoted to my life on the feminine side of things. A couple outings a month? I'm going out all the time. Happiness on that side of my life? Why can't I derive the same happiness from my family? This is her perception, her reality. That if I derive any happiness away from the family that perhaps I need to go and live that life. I am getting zero credit for managing the torment in my soul in an effort to keep everything together.

It might seem as if this is all about "stuff". About the material things that go into helping my outside match what is in my heart. It could be such the social experiment to redefine what it means to me to be a woman by burying the "stuff". My elephant has already helped me to redefine femininity in my heart when it comes to expression. Part of me says with resolve, "not on my watch". My outings are essential to preserve my sanity. My friendships are very important as well. There is much risk if I play the martyr card. Am I prepared for the fallout? Is she? Or is fallout inevitable no matter what choice is made? This situation might be untenable. What makes me feel otherwise is that underneath all of this BS, love is absolutely present. After 20 years, I love her more than I did the day we got married.

[Jamie001]

Wow I am going through the same thing in my marriage. We have been married 20 years as well. I.m also at the point of not knowing what to do too. it seems unfair that if something gives us joy we have to hide or stop. There has to be a level playing field for both of us. Don't knoww what that is but there has a be a way for both to be happy. Yes there is a big elephant in our house.

It is really an unfortunate situation because we really aren't hurting anyone. It is not like being a drug addict, alcoholic, or a deadbeat. It is too bad that folks can't look at crossdressing and see it for what it really is. After all, women crossdress all of the time.

[Sara Jessica]

Perhaps she's remembering a discussion I had with my son when he inadvertently found out. I later said to him that it was probably going to take a lot of mental steel wool to erase the image of his dad in a dress from his mind. He replied that it would indeed take a copious amount, but that he was willing to out of love. :)

Kathi

Yeah, kind of sort of remembering that part of it. The main thing though is that we all have a different endgame when it comes to our goals. I simply want less subterfuge. I also want my kids to come to terms which who/what I am before they get into adulthood, at which time I have heard way too many tales of outright rejection of a trans parent.

Then again, should I even worry about that? We raise them to be tolerant and even yesterday my son was glued to the news when there was a "big" announcement about the boy scouts. When they said that the ban against gay leaders or members was to be lifted, he was like "is that all???" and went on to do his thing.

The thing about your story Kathi is that I think the mental image that can be concocted by a child of their dad in a dress is a lot different than seeing the real image in that for many of us, our female presentation can be much more advanced than what would be imagined otherwise. Either way though, no amount of mental steel wool will get rid of such an image, no matter what the source is.


So Kathi,How has it gone with your kids? I am Dad no matter how I am dressed and my 11 yr old daughter fully agrees!

Rogina, I admire where you are but any envy I might have starts and ends with the disclosure thing. If you daughter being around you dressed works for you, that is terrific. I presume you are full time, right?


Wow I am going through the same thing in my marriage. We have been married 20 years as well. I.m also at the point of not knowing what to do too. it seems unfair that if something gives us joy we have to hide or stop. There has to be a level playing field for both of us. Don't knoww what that is but there has a be a way for both to be happy. Yes there is a big elephant in our house.

A lot of it depends on whether this whole thing is something you do or something that is engrained in your being. I think the way our spouses react and cope differ depending on the species of trans that we might be, not to mention their own ideals that they grew up with. There are some things that simply cannot be overcome but regardless, as difficult as being trans might be for me, I have such empathy for my wife, and any spouse who has difficulty coping. This simply isn't part of what little girls dream of when they imagine marriage in their future.


It is really an unfortunate situation because we really aren't hurting anyone. It is not like being a drug addict, alcoholic, or a deadbeat. It is too bad that folks can't look at crossdressing and see it for what it really is. After all, women crossdress all of the time.

On a very superficial level you make a point. There are worse things that a woman can cope with than having a TG spouse. However, everything about who we are or what we do is still a societal outlier. But your overly simplistic POV betrays the fact that from what we can tell, you are not in a committed relationship so until you understand the dynamics of the giving & taking that comes with such territory, I believe you need to rethink your attitude.


And BTW, please don't anyone respond to "women crossdress all of the time" because for one thing we know that to be untrue but also, this thread is not the place for such discussion.

[ReineD]

And BTW, please don't anyone respond to "women crossdress all of the time" because for one thing we know that to be untrue but also, this thread is not the place for such discussion.

I wasn't planning to. :)

(since I'm the one who usually takes exception to this) :p

[Jamie001]

On a very superficial level you make a point. There are worse things that a woman can cope with than having a TG spouse. However, everything about who we are or what we do is still a societal outlier. But your overly simplistic POV betrays the fact that from what we can tell, you are not in a committed relationship so until you understand the dynamics of the giving & taking that comes with such territory, I believe you need to rethink your attitude.


Sara,

I have been in a committed relationship for 15 years. My situation is a lot different than your situation. There is a big difference! I am a feminine male that incorporates items from women's fashion into my appearance. Passing as a woman is not a goal. I am not attempting to deceiving anyone into believing that I'm a woman. I don't want SRS and and happy being a feminine male. Basically, I am the opposite of a Tomboy, and even though I am a social outlier, I am not as much of a social outlier as a male that completely dresses and attempts to pass as a woman. I simply stand for fashion freedom for men to be able to wear all clothing and the ability to express ourselves as we wish and feel. My most important goals is for get society to understand the gender is a continuum and the many folks cannot and will not be pigeon-holed into the "M" or "F" category of acceptable gender expression.

If you wanted to present as a feminine male by simply incorporating items from feminine fashion such as Capri Pants and Nail Polish (also known as Freestyling), your situation would be significantly different. I wish you the best in the decisions that you have made for your situation.

[Sally24]

I applaud your hard work in walking that "middle ground" Sara. It's not easy finding some kind of balance that works for all involved. I wish I had your choice with hair but mine is just a little too thin to work.

I wanted to comment on the children situation. I wasn't actively dressing when my kids were younger so it wasn't an issue. After I had been going out for several years we decided it was wise to tell them rather than have them find out accidently. They were both in their 20's and took it pretty well. My son is likely a little unsettled by it even though he.denies that. He's seen pictures but hasn't managed to go OUT with us yet. My daughter has been out with me many times, both shopping and clubbing. I think its healthy for them and I like the fact that they know ALL of the real me. It doesn't always turn out this well.but I think kids deserve the chance to share all of our life. By the way I'm only part time and don't forsee fulltime in my future.

[Rogina B]

I also want my kids to come to terms which who/what I am before they get into adulthood, at which time I have heard way too many tales of outright rejection of a trans parent.

Then again, should I even worry about that? We raise them to be tolerant and even yesterday my son was glued to the news when there was a "big" announcement about the boy scouts. When they said that the ban against gay leaders or members was to be lifted, he was like "is that all???" and went on to do his thing.

The thing about your story Kathi is that I think the mental image that can be concocted by a child of their dad in a dress is a lot different than seeing the real image in that for many of us, our female presentation can be much more advanced than what would be imagined otherwise. Either way though, no amount of mental steel wool will get rid of such an image, no matter what the source is.



Rogina, I admire where you are but any envy I might have starts and ends with the disclosure thing. If you daughter being around you dressed works for you, that is terrific. I presume you are full time, right?



A lot of it depends on whether this whole thing is something you do or something that is engrained in your being. I think the way our spouses react and cope differ depending on the species of trans that we might be, not to mention their own ideals that they grew up with. My wife is a beautiful Venezuelan,much younger than I. In Latin countries,anyone out of the norm is painted with the very wide "gay brush".My transsexuality was important enough to me to want to have a comfortable and accepting homelife.I feel good that I have that and I have an 11 yr old daughter that is understanding gender a good bit more from it all.I don't believe that waiting years for kids to become late teens does anything positive at all.My opinion based on my experience.

[Jessica86]

May not seem very relavent, but I remember thinking about joining the police force. All of my friends supported me, as did my fiancee at the time. After joining and giving up my computer career, I started to see the true sides of people. I do not have one friend that I did back then. Also, my fiancee became my ex wife. Lots of people try to keep the factors out of the conversation because these things happen. Once you open your door for someone, you make it easier for them to close theirs on you. Just seems that way due to what I have been through. I started a whole new life....over a career choice.

[Sara Jessica]

Actually, she's going to the salon immediately preceding Diva Las Vegas in April and we're going over the top. Trim, layer, even bangs and highlights, all for a week of fun.

Only to return home and go straight back to the same stylist to cut it all off.

Yep, the elephant will be a bit tamer come mid-April. The thing is, my stylist has my best interest in mind. She knows exactly what I'm needing to achieve and we're going to try to dial it back to the point where I was about 3 months after I first went out without a wig. I was able to do a really terrific feminine style at that time even though I didn't have a fraction of the length I have now.

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. I will miss the simple joy of having long hair. Taking care of it is far from a chore, it is something I adore. As my friend Diana reinforced, getting attached to one's hair is far from irrational and yes, I may get emotional a time or two in Vegas thinking of the end being near. But it's a new beginning because it really will help my home life. And pretty much every step of the way as it grew out, I would say to myself "right on, I can stop here and be pretty darned happy", only to find myself that much more pleased the next step in it's growth.

I booked my appointments this morning, both the before & after. I have plenty of anticipation for obvious reasons (a week in Vegas) and a bit of trepidation to go along with it.

[Launa]

Actually, she's going to the salon immediately preceding Diva Las Vegas in April and we're going over the top. Trim, layer, even bangs and highlights, all for a week of fun.

Only to return home and go straight back to the same stylist to cut it all off.

Yep, the elephant will be a bit tamer come mid-April. The thing is, my stylist has my best interest in mind. She knows exactly what I'm needing to achieve and we're going to try to dial it back to the point where I was about 3 months after I first went out without a wig. I was able to do a really terrific feminine style at that time even though I didn't have a fraction of the length I have now.

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. I will miss the simple joy of having long hair. Taking care of it is far from a chore, it is something I adore. As my friend Diana reinforced, getting attached to one's hair is far from irrational and yes, I may get emotional a time or two in Vegas thinking of the end being near. But it's a new beginning because it really will help my home life. And pretty much every step of the way as it grew out, I would say to myself "right on, I can stop here and be pretty darned happy", only to find myself that much more pleased the next step in it's growth.

I booked my appointments this morning, both the before & after. I have plenty of anticipation for obvious reasons (a week in Vegas) and a bit of trepidation to go along with it.


You'll look great in any femme hairstyle you go with. Most of us don't have beautiful hair like yours to work with.

For me its wigs and more wigs!

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Actually, she's going to the salon immediately preceding Diva Las Vegas in April and we're going over the top. Trim, layer, even bangs and highlights, all for a week of fun.

Excellent. Make hair pretty!

[uote]Only to return home and go straight back to the same stylist to cut it all off.[/quote]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOO!


She knows exactly what I'm needing to achieve and we're going to try to dial it back to the point where I was about 3 months after I first went out without a wig. I was able to do a really terrific feminine style at that time even though I didn't have a fraction of the length I have now.

Yes, but your hair is even prettier now!


I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. But it's a new beginning because it really will help my home life.

I have mixed feelings too. Feeling #1 is to tell you to Not Cut the Hair. Feeling 2 says that you have to do what you have to do. And I want to support you even if my heart wants to see you keep the long hair and transition.

Veronica

[Sheren Kelly]

Thank you Sarah for demonstrating that our decisions don't just affect us. That you will pull back in consideration of your family is a sign of your love. I hope you have a great time at DLV and please take lots of pictures to share!

[Alice B]

It sounds as if the elephant is becoming a more accepted member of the family and is maturing. We'll have to get together and celebrate your new look once it happens. See you in Vegas at the elephant parade on the strip.

[AnneB1nderful]

I so much admire your maturity and decisiveness. You know who you are and what's important. Relationships are very important and in any relationship there is compromise. Hope to see you soon!!!

[Beverley Sims]

I made a flippant remark to Kathi Lake in Post #12 last June when you elephant was starting to move.
It referenced the fact that if you came out to some friends they would not believe you anyway.
In the time this post has been going I have read with interest your progress and subsequent advice you have had.
I like to think that some of this has rubbed off on to you and I look forward to seeing how your elephant likes Las Vegas.
I have nothing constructive to add but keep working at it as you both have, and good luck in Vegas.

[Sara Jessica]

The last few weeks have been kind of strange. The last time I went out & about was in early-February when a work commitment took me up to the Valley and I was able to meet up with Anne. Since then, I've been less than inspired to go out which is odd, I should have been eager to seize each and every opportunity to go out and enjoy my long hair while I still have it. The chances to go out since have been plenty and I would seize upon any reason not to go. Work event out towards Los Angeles, a friend offers to carpool, I accept and therefore....no outing. Work event in the Valley, finding out there is a dinner afterwards, no biggie, no outing.

So I had been talking to my friend Kim in SD about possibly coming down for the Neutral Corner meeting which was yesterday but those same feelings kicked in and I was really looking for any reason NOT to go. I even emailed her Friday morning and told her exactly how I was feeling rather than make up some lame excuse why I could not go. Kim was gracious as always and said to let her know. I ended up deciding to give it a go on Friday night so yesterday I had an all-day outing. It was a nice day but most importantly, Neutral Corner ended up being a solid source of support, something that I don't demand of this group very often in that I personally see it as a social group rather than support. I explained what was going on during my portion of the roundtable and this ended up being quite the source of ongoing conversation to the point where others were truly touched by the gravity of what I was going through. We're not simply talking about hair, it has to do with navigation of this entire middle-path thing.

When all is said and done, the commitment has been made. It feels right. I'm admittedly very nervous. I run the risk of being very emotional about it. But I think I'll be alright with a little help from my friends, both in these pages and IRL.


...and now for some comments on the comments:


have mixed feelings too. Feeling #1 is to tell you to Not Cut the Hair. Feeling 2 says that you have to do what you have to do. And I want to support you even if my heart wants to see you keep the long hair and transition.

I hear where you're coming from Veronica. And for what it's worth, I don't see the hair and transition potential as being tied together. It's nice knowing that if I ever need to regrow it, I should be able to.


You'll look great in any femme hairstyle you go with. Most of us don't have beautiful hair like yours to work with.

Thank you for the support, I really hope that dialing back to one of my early hairstyles ends up being as fulfilling as I think it can be.


Thank you Sarah for demonstrating that our decisions don't just affect us. That you will pull back in consideration of your family is a sign of your love. I hope you have a great time at DLV and please take lots of pictures to share!

You know there will be plenty of pictures. After all, it's gonna be all about the hair!!!


It sounds as if the elephant is becoming a more accepted member of the family and is maturing. We'll have to get together and celebrate your new look once it happens. See you in Vegas at the elephant parade on the strip.

I am so very much looking forward to seeing you in Vegas!!! :hugs:


I so much admire your maturity and decisiveness. You know who you are and what's important. Relationships are very important and in any relationship there is compromise. Hope to see you soon!!!

You are so right and I think the time has come for this compromise.

[Sara Jessica]

Sitting here at Paris Las Vegas awaiting Sherry to pick me up. Heading home from a near-perfect week of DLV. This means today is the day when well over three years of hair growth goes bye-bye.

There was a moment of fate earlier in the week. I tried some 100% human hair extensions at a kiosk in Fashion Show mall. I would need two boxes once my hair is shorter but I'm encouraged. They snap in easily and are even easier removed and can be styled with a flat or curling iron.

But last night at the dance club at Paris (where at least 25 of gathered after the ending celebration) I looked at my phone at 12:01 a.m. and the tears flowed like an open faucet. This time I would in fact be turning into a pumpkin. I sent a text over to Diana back home as she & Tim were unable to attend this year, soaking my phone. Soon though, my friends picked me up so my heartfelt thanks goes out to Danielle & Dana for doing so.

Some might scoff at the gravity I'm bringing to this but to me, this is a big deal. I know it will be OK but that doesn't make it any easier.

[steftoday]

Sorry about having to give up your hair Sara. I recall the promise you made earlier in this thread. I hope you're going to be ok...

[Sara Jessica]

The deed is done. To my surprise, there was a media presence outside along with protesters on both sides of the issue including a candlelight vigil imploring the courts to intervene in favor of my hair. Well the Governor didn't call and I present the evidence below.

Also to my surprise, it wasn't so much of an emotional thing at that moment, I let out that spontaneous burst of tears at the club the night before although I welled up as I saw the opportunity take shape. So the current style? In all honesty, it might be TOO feminine. Nope, I just took a peek in the mirror...it's DEFINITELY too feminine. That is unless I have it slicked back behind my ears. It is kind of thick in the back and tapers down into a bit of a bob style. I have bangs enough to comb them to the side, again...best to keep them behind the ears. I think it will be OK if the world will accept this as an acceptable style for a guy. Kind of an avant-garde alt-rock look, IMHO. And damn cute if I say so myself. Not so sure my wife is on board. I'll hear more in the days to come. I have a feeling this isn't quite over.

ps - The length she cut off would be about 2 1/2" longer had she not cut off that much last Sunday before I departed to Vegas. I was in desperate need of a healthy trim and layering. The remnants are going to Locks of Love. At least something good is guaranteed to come of this whole thing.

[DonniDarkness]

Sara,

Ive read through these pages of this thread as they have been going on.

I have a few questions.

Why exactly are you cutting your hair? (i must have missed it)

(I'm gathering that this is because its complicating your relationship? or work presentation?
Ive had long hair most of my life, working and living as a man. So i have a hard time with why you would cut it if you truly didnt want to.)

Do you feel that you would have the same "Ideation" of fully transitioning if there were less of a line of conformity within your personal life among friends work and family? As in, if the 15x15 closet was not a secret stash....or you were not condemned to storage bins....or didnt cater to an elephant in the room?

(The reason i ask this question is that when i started seeing my therapist a few years ago One of the first subjects to come up was how i saw myself transitioning.
In our conversation, i told her that when i thought about it (transition) I felt that i would compromising myself and that i felt pressured to choose one or the other so that the people in my life would accept me, but at the end of the day i did not see myself living fully as a woman. Only in those moments when i couldnt be "Me" did i ever wish to be part of the Female binary, but when i saw myself there i was not a transitioned female, i was just accepted as me. This conversation led to "What transition meant for me"....For me it came down to ultimately coming out about who i am, so that way there is no longer a separation between my Two separate identities, so that who i am can move about freely with the gender spectrum without the guilt that i am denying or compromising who i am. Sara, since that day i have slowly came out one step at a time, my friends know, i have a support circle within my family, my kids know about it, and i go out locally....and because of all this my quality of life has skyrocketed. I no longer stress about what other people think about my male appearance being too girly or worry about being clocked when im out. My dialog with people is optimistic and i no longer carry my elephant with me. Shes grazing in the front yard....
I just wanted to share with you what ive gone thru in the past year or two that once i made the steps to come out "balance" found me.)


After 20 years, I love her more than I did the day we got married

And you deserved to be loved back the same way.


-Donni-

[lithiaann]

sara,

i am married to a loving understanding wife that stands behind me 100%. that is also willing to help me in any way to be myself.we also have older kids,along with two younger childern.the older girls where a little standoffish at first, but have since come around. they only want me to be comfortable in myself. and as they say they get another gf.to hangout with..now,as for my 5 year old daughter she spoke her mind at first...but now she is liking the idea of having two mommies along with a dad too... my 2 year old he is very open with me ...he calls me mom too.he comes an cuddles with me alot more than when i am dad...witch i true like... so i say be open with your kids no matter what ...take time to talk with them about how they feel, and then tell them how you honestly feel as both male and female....good luck sara....myprayers are with you ...

[Sara Jessica]

Hi Donni,

I'll try to address your questions/comments.

First of all, the reason I am cutting my hair is predominantly for my wife. Fact of the matter is that when presenting as a guy, I look infinitely better with shorter hair. The slicked back look just isn't for me regardless of the ponytail in the back. And letting it down in guy mode isn't the best either. Frankly, she doesn't find me remotely attractive with long hair. I get that. I know people change their look over the years, some things voluntarily and others just happen with age or neglect. The hair was something which could be reversed so I did it for her. There was no ultimatum presented. I did this because I love her and was also tired of it being a periodic issue in our lives.

The result as I described above? The world failed to explode and I am very encouraged by my new options. That is if this new style isn't too difficult to guy-up which it may very well be. And in Vegas, a bit of fate intervened when I tried on those hair extensions. They look 1000% real and natural. I saw a young woman wearing them in a blow-dry salon I went to on Friday and you'd never have known she didn't have her own natural long hair. I have options to experiment with in this shorter style and the day will hopefully come when I can feel hair cascading across my shoulders and upper back that is actually attached to my head. Wearing a wig NEVER compared to real hair in that regard.

You then make reference to an ideation of transition which I perceive as a somewhat negative term, as if it is some sort of pipe dream which I am injecting myself into. I have said this before, that some who have transitioned may very well see my situation as a cop-out but the bottom line is that I am choosing to stay on this middle path, a term I have kind of co-opted to fit my situation. I CHOOSE to not put my family at risk by transitioning. Indeed, my wife is clear that she is gone if I go there. Let me make something else clear, others who choose to risk destruction of interpersonal relationships and career in favor of a decision to transition are not making a selfish or less noble decision in doing so. I am simply a proponent of this middle path being a valid CHOICE and way to live one's life. I will continue to do so as long as I am able to find fulfillment on both sides of the gender fence.

That said, you make reference to a gender fluidity which is at the crux of your own POV. That is also a valid place to be when dealing with this but it's not remotely close to how I see the world. As I have said many times in the past, I am all good with the gender binary which tends to exist in our world, I was simply drafted to the wrong team. While the changes I have made to my appearance may look to an outsider like I am trying to blur the lines in my day-to-day life, the changes are only there to reflect what is in my heart. I'm not trying to make a social statement in my daily presentation even if it might look that way on the surface.

Anyways, thank you Donni for taking the time to write such a thoughtful reply. I really appreciate it.

[DonniDarkness]

You then make reference to an ideation of transition which I perceive as a somewhat negative term, as if it is some sort of pipe dream which I am injecting myself into.

Not what i meant by the ideation statement. It was to put context on how we think our transition will go, but once we are there we realize that the act of transitioning is much different once it happens. Our thoughts about Transitioning tend to take us to extremes sometimes and i was simply trying to put into words that transition means very different things do different people. Transitioning for me is simply just letting go of the self constructed censorship i had placed upon myself. There are no hormones or living full time or FFS,SRS,Augmentation in my future, by my choice. My choice is not because i fear negative repercussions it is because I LOVE MY LIFE...all of it. For me, making the choice to Transition Fully is societies answer for Transgenderism, not mine. I embrace my male side as much as my female tendencies, and taking away one or the other would destroy the beautiful me that everyone knows as Donnie, Donni, Dad, Son, Brother, Sister and friend.

So really i was just trying to convey that happiness can be found on your own terms.

Also i respect the reasons you cut your hair, although it saddens me a little there is one less guy in our culture rocking the long hair, i applaud you for making such a sacrifice for your relationship. I hope it finds some peace and common ground to really strengthen your relationship with your wife. I also hope that she learns to understand you better even if she never fully accepts that you are Transgender. There must be common ground in your relationship that gives you both freedom and happiness.

From my side of the fence Sara, i would say you are Transitioning and have been for quite some time, it might not be what other people think Transition should be, but its your transition mentally that speaks volumes to me. You've got yourself figured out, now you're at the point where your ready for everyone else to figure it out....And i totally get where you are right now....even if we have different paths on the gender spectrum.

Stay optimistic,
-Donni-

[PretzelGirl]

My heart still goes out to you Sara. Even though you can rock a new look, you still felt you had to give up something you wanted and that hurts even with a positive outcome. But you did it for all of the right reasons and I am sure that is a big part (or all) of what helps you through. Now I look forward to the pics of the new, shorter Sara hair!

[Kathi Lake]

Agree with Sue. What you did, you did by choice. What you did you did in the name of marital harmony. Sara, I salute you for this choice. I hope that both your new hair is cute (pictures, please!) and that your wife understands and appreciates your gesture.

Kathi

[KellyJameson]

This has been a powerful thread for the experience of gender dysphoria.

I'm relieved that you have been able to cut your hair without experiencing depression.

In my opinion transitioning should not be the first option, but the last.

That decision you make when you have one foot in the grave, otherwise it should be strongly resisted and every other possible strategy used to cope with it.

When you transition you are risking death either through the immediate act of transitioning or the long term affects of transitioning.

Hormones and surgery are extremely dangerous plus you risk losing the ability to enjoy your sexuality.

Do not allow others to define whether you are experiencing gender dysphoria or not or whether you are transsexual or not which basically means whether you are female or not.

Being female is the expression of how the brain is organized and this organization leads you down a path where you know you are female because you find yourself in other females.

It is a type of profound knowing that comes from experiencing the self in relation to others and the self in relation to how we dance with our environment.

Gender is an interactive experience and gender dysphoria is when the vessel we live in stops this experience by making it unnatural to live through the vessel we reside in creating pain so we attempt to change to live.

Everyone starts out female in the womb so it is only a question of movement from this original starting point.

Perhaps men feel this inside as the pull back to the beginning as female and that is why so many are insecure about their maleness and hold onto it so tightly.

They resist being what they naturally are as that which they were and always have been.

[ReineD]

Sara ... my deepest condolences for your hair. :sad: :hugs:



The reason i ask this question is that when i started seeing my therapist a few years ago One of the first subjects to come up was how i saw myself transitioning.

In our conversation, i told her that when i thought about it (transition) I felt that i would compromising myself and that i felt pressured to choose one or the other so that the people in my life would accept me, but at the end of the day i did not see myself living fully as a woman. Only in those moments when i couldnt be "Me" did i ever wish to be part of the Female binary, but when i saw myself there i was not a transitioned female, i was just accepted as me. This conversation led to "What transition meant for me"....For me it came down to ultimately coming out about who i am, so that way there is no longer a separation between my Two separate identities, so that who i am can move about freely with the gender spectrum without the guilt that i am denying or compromising who i am.

Donni, honestly this needs to be emblazoned with lights and placed high up on the forum billboard for all to see. :)

Unlike you, my SO does not want his parents, sister, and nieces to know (they live far away) and my SO has no children. But, s/he has as much freedom to be herself as you do and this makes all the difference, in my opinion.


... i was simply trying to put into words that transition means very different things do different people. Transitioning for me is simply just letting go of the self constructed censorship i had placed upon myself. There are no hormones or living full time or FFS, SRS, Augmentation in my future, by my choice. My choice is not because i fear negative repercussions it is because I LOVE MY LIFE...all of it.

... So really i was just trying to convey that happiness can be found on your own terms.

This is another wonderful way to look at it (for non-type V or VI TSs). A transition to the true gender non-conforming self, rather than a transition from male to female. Well said.

[AnneB1nderful]

From my side of the fence Sara, i would say you are Transitioning and have been for quite some time, it might not be what other people think Transition should be, but its your transition mentally that speaks volumes to me. You've got yourself figured out, now you're at the point where your ready for everyone else to figure it out....And i totally get where you are right now....even if we have different paths on the gender spectrum.

Donni,
This is a wonderful comment that I hope everyone reads and ponders. Sara and I are great friends and she is much more experienced living out of the gender dysphoria closet than I. She has guided me thru confusing periods and let me figure things out on my own. Even though we are on different paths, our journey is similar (just as all of us have some commonality in this forum). I love to read and participate in these discussions that exemplify our differences yet bring solidarity to our plight.


This has been a powerful thread for the experience of gender dysphoria.

Do not allow others to define whether you are experiencing gender dysphoria or not or whether you are transsexual or not which basically means whether you are female or not.

Kelly,
Agree completely.

[Sara Jessica]

Our thoughts about Transitioning tend to take us to extremes sometimes and i was simply trying to put into words that transition means very different things do different people. Transitioning for me is simply just letting go of the self constructed censorship i had placed upon myself. There are no hormones or living full time or FFS,SRS,Augmentation in my future, by my choice. My choice is not because i fear negative repercussions it is because I LOVE MY LIFE...all of it. For me, making the choice to Transition Fully is societies answer for Transgenderism, not mine. I embrace my male side as much as my female tendencies, and taking away one or the other would destroy the beautiful me that everyone knows as Donnie, Donni, Dad, Son, Brother, Sister and friend.

So really i was just trying to convey that happiness can be found on your own terms.

I totally get where you are coming from and really appreciate the clarification. I guess my path is similar in that I am choosing to embrace that which makes me "me" on both sides of the gender fence and as I have said before, I can continue to do so as long as I am able to find fulfillment in both places.


Also i respect the reasons you cut your hair, although it saddens me a little there is one less guy in our culture rocking the long hair, i applaud you for making such a sacrifice for your relationship. I hope it finds some peace and common ground to really strengthen your relationship with your wife. I also hope that she learns to understand you better even if she never fully accepts that you are Transgender. There must be common ground in your relationship that gives you both freedom and happiness.

You have really hit on the essence of this whole decision. It's almost like you are close enough to see exactly what's going on. I guess that means I have conveyed my story in such a way that has enabled you to do so.


From my side of the fence Sara, i would say you are Transitioning and have been for quite some time, it might not be what other people think Transition should be, but its your transition mentally that speaks volumes to me. You've got yourself figured out, now you're at the point where your ready for everyone else to figure it out....And i totally get where you are right now....even if we have different paths on the gender spectrum.


Again, bullseye. You are very perceptive Donni and again, I have to thank you for taking the time to put your thoughts into writing.

Yes, this is my form of transition and where my Elephant comes into play in my everyday life is where a similarity if found compared to your situation. I'm not going so far as to say I'm ready for everyone to figure me out but at the same time, I don't have fear about that happening, short of what it could mean for my wife & kids (again, she has that "what would the neighbors say" mentality which I totally understand where's she's coming from).

This is my transition, for better or for worse. I'm really curious to see how it plays out over the next several years. Will people figure me out and say "meh"? Will my GID propel me to places I have not envisioned in my own personal blueprint for the future? There is a significant chance of that happening which I must acknowledge. My own GID is an eternal slow-burn like the sun and erupts from time to time like a solar flare. Each flare seems to be a bit larger & hotter than the previous one. Maintaining my path requires containment of these flares.


I'm relieved that you have been able to cut your hair without experiencing depression.

Many fine points Kelly, thank you for sharing.

The one above stuck out because there was a significant period of depression during the weeks/months leading up to the deed. I acknowledge that. And at this point it's kind of creeping back. Maybe it's because I haven't had a chance to explore what this new look can mean for my female presentation but more significantly, I can see pretty much any woman out there with long hair and my mind is set off into fits. Given the number of women who fit that description, I had better get a grip or things are going to get really rough.


Sara and I are great friends and she is much more experienced living out of the gender dysphoria closet than I. She has guided me thru confusing periods and let me figure things out on my own. Even though we are on different paths, our journey is similar (just as all of us have some commonality in this forum). I love to read and participate in these discussions that exemplify our differences yet bring solidarity to our plight.

That is why the sharing of ideas in a forum such as this is so important. There is no right or wrong way to approach the essence of our being. Everyone has to manage based on the variables in their own life.


My heart still goes out to you Sara. Even though you can rock a new look, you still felt you had to give up something you wanted and that hurts even with a positive outcome. But you did it for all of the right reasons and I am sure that is a big part (or all) of what helps you through. Now I look forward to the pics of the new, shorter Sara hair!


Agree with Sue. What you did, you did by choice. What you did you did in the name of marital harmony. Sara, I salute you for this choice. I hope that both your new hair is cute (pictures, please!) and that your wife understands and appreciates your gesture.

Kathi

Thank you Sue & Kathi for your support. :hugs:

[Sara Jessica]

(...before this thread gets locked due to inactivity)

Feeling like my little theory has run it's course and with my participation in these pages waning of late, I thought I'd write a quick epilogue to the tale.

My hair is cut and to my absolute surprise, the world failed to explode (©Erica). In fact, I think the new look only makes my Elephant that much more visible but at the end of the day, the anticipated result remains, marital harmony with my hair being pretty much a non-issue (which means that between the two of us, the gender thing becomes somewhat of a non-issue as well).

My resolve continues to live my life in an ongoing effort to achieve fulfillment on both sides of the gender fence. As long as I find this, I will manage along my own path without worry of any sort of validation from others. I know who I am, I know what I am. Those who truly know me understand this as well.

Who says love cannot win out over a lifetime of gender dysphoria? There is no shame in letting love win. I choose love as I choose my path. While I would never begrudge anyone else for choosing a different path, at the same time I will not apologize for choosing mine. There is no shame in choosing to remain by the side of the woman I fell for way back when. Love at first sight, yeah, pretty much. Or at least love at first sight when neither of us were encumbered with another. Engaged within six months, married a few years later. She stood by as I fought a battle against cancer which was diagnosed barely two months after we were married. We put off having children for a number of years because of my fear of not being able to be there for them, a fear of being stolen away by an insidious disease. I cannot fathom stealing myself from their daily lives by way of transition.

There is no shame in the joy I experience each morning when I wake up my little girls to face yet another beautiful day. There is no shame being a daily witness to my son growing into an amazing young man. I choose not to give up these things. I choose to be a daily part of all of their lives, something which most certainly would be stripped of me if I were to go down a transition path. Yet I feel zero resentment towards my wife in being put in a position to make such a choice. I sealed my own deal the day I asked her to be my wife and cemented my fate as our family flourished over the years. She understands enough of my essence to give me the space to be myself. Very little is the result of negotiation, she rarely says "no" to anything I might do or bring up (hair notwithstanding but that was an attraction thing which I totally get).

There is no shame in the life I have cultivated on the female side of the fence. The chance to simply be, the countless friends I have made, the experiences...these sustain me despite my moments of doubt as to whether this choice of mine is truly sustainable. My biggest fear is what effect this constant feeling of my insides being crushed by a vice is having on my heart. I choose love and in doing so I am hopeful that peace in my heart will win out as well. If transition could bring peace to my heart, I would rather die young surrounded by love than live to a ripe old age as a woman but largely alone.

Such is my choice.

[Kathi Lake]

Such is our choice, indeed. Peace always wins out. Eventually. UNtil that time, you have the love of your wife, children, and friends to sustain you. I'd say you're doing fine.

:)

Kathi

[Miranda09]

I think you have everything going for you Sara, and it will only get better. As Kathy said, you have family and friends (including those here) who will always be there for you as you have been there for them. Keep smiling!! :)

[Suzanne F]

Thank you Sara! That makes sense to me! I don't want to lose my wife and son and be a woman alone. I treasure my experience as Suzanne but I want to make sure I don't lose sight of what I have in my loving family.
Suzanne

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Sounds like me about 5 years before I transitioned...
I wish you the best and I think you are making the right choice for yourself right now. You are right that you have nothing to be ashamed of.

It's not just about love though.

I love my kids at least as much as you.. I love my Ex-wife just as much
... I couldn't love or cherish anyone more...but the intensity of the problem became a living hell... what I wanted and who I loved disappeared in a soul crushing tidal wave that I never ever anticipated...
and I begged for years of therapy for it to end...it never did..

Your future will be decided by the intensity of your nature, not by your deep love of your family.

I see my kids every day, my ex spends a ton of time with me and our family is as close as ever...my oldest daughter is in college and wrote a successful entrance essay about her dad.
You are framing transition as loss when its not the case every time, you are framing it as an unloving act when it is not.


I realize I am in the CD side, so fire away, but I am just keeping it real..this is serious stuff!!!

[kimdl93]

Sara, it seems you've made a totally rational choice. In spite of that, my own insides hurt when I read the comment about your insides being crushed by a vice each day. I hope your able to express to your wife the magnitude of the inner conflict you feel each day...not to coerce some concession from her...but to let her know the depth of your commitment to your family, and perhaps to help open the path to more full expression of yourself as a human being.

the life you have chosen has its compensations, certainly, as has mine. But don't abandon all hope for more.

[Sara Jessica]

Kaitlyn, thank you for posting your thoughts.

I've made something crystal clear, both in this thread and elsewhere. There is no unsaid implication that just because I choose to do X, Y or Z in the name of love for my family that anyone else who takes a different path loves theirs any less.

There is no way to quantify love. It means different things to different people. You may love your family much more than I love mine. I might love mine more than you love yours. At the end of the day it doesn't matter for a multitude of reasons and if it did, because it cannot be measured renders the entire point moot.

And the same holds true for an individuals degree of being trans. It's not necessarily a scale of inevitability which will run it's course if one is truly a transsexual woman. The intensity of my nature may very well be greater than yours. Yours might be greater than mine. Like love, there's no way to tell. The path one chooses is not a sole arbiter as an attempt to measure the unmeasurable because everyone copes differently. Everyone has variables to contend with that affect the decision making process. Simply put, every trans woman has a different breaking point and reaching that point is not mandatory.

Regardless of the widespread loss that is experienced by many who transition, I frame my own transition as a loss because it is something I know to be true. I WOULD LOSE MY WIFE, simple as that. She has made this crystal clear so for me, transition = guaranteed loss. The kids are a different story as she has also made it clear that she would do all she could to ensure that the kids still love me were I to go down a path of transition. That gives me some comfort but not enough to toss aside what I have with my wife.

One thing that has become clear over the last several days since writing the above post is that my entire focus has changed. I will no longer focus on coping and instead, I will go back to living. Life is not something to survive, it's a gift to embrace. I will no longer dwell on what it means to be on the path that I am on and how I can possibly maintain it in the face of what is in my heart. I choose a life free of those shackles. What I didn't anticipate is that the mundane nature of the last few days have been among my happiest days over the course of the last ten years or so. I have embraced the little joys in my everyday routine through an entirely new perspective. Who knew that a change in attitude could have such a profound positive effect???

[Lexi_83]

I broke up with a GF who I didn't tell I crossdressed and didn't like the idea when I did tell her, just before breaking up. I was never anything but nice to her, and her response was to out me to most of our mutual friends.

Some of them broke off connection. Some of them keep in touch but don't want to hear anything about that part of my life. A few are at least a little supportive and there are only two women and 1 1/2 guys who have actually been what you would call supportive. In the long run it was the best thing that ever happened to me, as at least when I'm with them they know this part of me. And since then I've gotten several requests from wives whose husbands are interested in dressing and want to help.

So it's good and bad, but mostly good.

[ReineD]

One thing that has become clear over the last several days since writing the above post is that my entire focus has changed. I will no longer focus on coping and instead, I will go back to living. Life is not something to survive, it's a gift to embrace. I will no longer dwell on what it means to be on the path that I am on and how I can possibly maintain it in the face of what is in my heart. I choose a life free of those shackles. What I didn't anticipate is that the mundane nature of the last few days have been among my happiest days over the course of the last ten years or so. I have embraced the little joys in my everyday routine through an entirely new perspective. Who knew that a change in attitude could have such a profound positive effect???

:clap::clap::clap:

This is so good to read!!! :)

I can't possibly compare my situation to yours since gender issues don't come into it for me, but I've been stuck during the last 5-6 years wanting something resolved that simply is not resolving. It caused a deep depression, and for several years I did not know how to enjoy the here and now, simply because I was regretting what wasn't.

Your words ring true for everyone, Sara. This is why they are so brilliant! You are making a choice and realizing it is in YOUR power to make the choice, so now you are prepared to put your best foot forward. You're taking control of your life again. This is what I must do too. Thank you for typing this.

:hugs:

[Kathi Lake]

I will no longer focus on coping and instead, I will go back to living.Yayyyyy! She gets it! Good for you, girl. Life is for living, not thinking about how to live.


Who knew that a change in attitude could have such a profound positive effect???*cough* *cough* :)


You are making a choice and realizing it is in YOUR power to make the choice, . . .As it has always been. Maybe one day people will realize that even when you are choosing to let your spouse have what some would call the "upper hand" in your appearance and activities - not necessarily authority, but input - that that is a valid choice for all of us - no matter where on the spectrum we sit.

Sara, you know how much we care for you here. We hurt with you in the bad moments, and rejoice with you in the magical ones as well.

Kathi