Stereo typeing

[wendy360]

I have read some posting in the last couple of weeks about how people like to stereo type cross dressers. Seems the first one on the list is we must be gay.

This hit home last Friday as I was getting my nails filled and getting a pedicure. I go to a regular salon and always see the same girl so we have become friendly and as we were talking I asked if she could put a nail color on my finger nails after she put the clear gel on. I told her I was going out, which I was, and I wanted my finger nails to look special. She suggested I go with colored gel, that it would last longer. I told her that I wanted to be able to take the color off after I was done and that the guys I work with would give me a lot of grief if I showed up with pink or red nails.

She told me they must know I'm gay by now and that she was OK with it as she has a relative who now lives in London who is gay. She told me she has noticed some of the cloths I wear sometimes are quite feminine and its OK if it makes me happy, and continues to make her money.

Anyway I told her I am not gay that I am very much straight but that I like some things that are feminine. I like having my nails done. I of course also fell back on the fact that she is sitting there in a pair of jeans and a T shirt but if a man wants his nails done forget it.

Not sure if she understood the hole I like feminine things but I'm really straight thing but in the end I have purple toe nails with white high lights and metallic pink finger nails that I wore for 2 days before removing so I can go back to work as a grease monkey.

[Farrah]

I totally agree. I'm not gay, I just like to look pretty. People tend to think that outward appearance tells the story of our sexuality. I wish I would have had this frame of mind when I was younger. I would be much further along in my dressing endevours. I wish we could express ourselves without people assuming we're gay and we would jump on the first man we see. THat couldn't be further from the truth. As a child, society made me think I was gay and I was scared. However, as I got older and the internet became a part of life, i realized that I was not the only man that wanted to look "pretty". I was relieved, because I didnt want to be gay. If I had listened to society, I would be some guys boy toy by now. wow!! I'm glad I didn't listen!!

[busker]

I totally agree. I'm not gay, I just like to look pretty. People tend to think that outward appearance tells the story of our sexuality. I wish I would have had this frame of mind when I was younger. I would be much further along in my dressing endevours. I wish we could express ourselves without people assuming we're gay and we would jump on the first man we see. THat couldn't be further from the truth. As a child, society made me think I was gay and I was scared. However, as I got older and the internet became a part of life, i realized that I was not the only man that wanted to look "pretty". I was relieved, because I didnt want to be gay. If I had listened to society, I would be some guys boy toy by now. wow!! I'm glad I didn't listen!!

It has been indelibly connected in their minds that guys who wear frilly stuff are gay. Liberace helped some, but there is a whole history of members of the gay community in times past who signaled they were gay by wearing "girly " things and swishing and limping their wrists and all that. Those visuals are still with us, some members here are gay and so there is a tendency to lump us all in together. The question in their minds is why would a straight guy wear women's clothing if he wasn't trying to attract a guy. There are lots of threads here about cds wanting sex with guys, there is one currently going and it is a topic of unending interest. we will always be looked at as gay, and while I would like to say get over it, that is not going to be a good answer. we can't get over it. it would mean changing the minds of much of the world's population, and like acceptance, it ain't gonna' happen. Somewhere I saw that the estimate is that 40% of cds are gay, 40 are straight and the rest are bi or ?????????

[NathalieX66]

I participated in a study conducted by Pamona College regarding sexuality of transgender people.
I can't remember the exact numbers , but MTF (male to female) crossdressers, transgender, transsexual that were/are attracted to women only was in the 40-something percent.
MTF (male to female) crossdressers, transgender, transsexual that were/are bisexual is also in the 40-something percent.
Those who identified specifically gay, or attracted to men was around 10%.
This is a very inconclusive study, and still ongoing.

I will say that having been in the company of many transgender folks in various social settings, I have found the number that were exclusively attracted to men, and not women very few and far between....not unlike the study. Gay men just seem to be attracted to.....men.

I think it's safe to say that the sexuality of transgender people is very fluid.

Anyone care to challenge me on this one? :doll:

[Noemi]

You can not care what they think. You already know what they think. Time to dress up and feel pretty. Only we have any understanding of transgender or what ever you would like to call it.
I do not care, at all, what the public thinks.

[whowhatwhen]

I was relieved, because I didnt want to be gay. If I had listened to society, I would be some guys boy toy by now. wow!! I'm glad I didn't listen!!

I don't want to nitpick but chances are you'd try a guy and end up not being into it if you're really straight.
So no, you wouldn't be some guy's boytoy.

:D

[Mythic]

This reminds me of somthing interesting. One of my sisters coworkers is gay, and for a gay pride parade(or similar event) he bought a dress. I asked my sister "Oh is he a crossdresser aswell?" her response was "He only wears things like that an makeup sometimes cause he thinks it's fashonable if you're gay." This just puzzles me...

[Beverley Sims]

I am always gay and happy.
Take a positive spin on life and as long as a gay man does not pat me on the bum I will socialise with them.
Women are the best thing since sliced bread was invented.

[kimdl93]

People cling to these stereotypes until someone like you helps them see beyond the narrow assumptions. Next time, renew the conversation and over time, she'll perhaps understand a bit more clearly.

[DonnaT]

This reminds me of somthing interesting. One of my sisters coworkers is gay, and for a gay pride parade(or similar event) he bought a dress. I asked my sister "Oh is he a crossdresser aswell?" her response was "He only wears things like that an makeup sometimes cause he thinks it's fashonable if you're gay." This just puzzles me...
It's like an act. Sort of like gay drag queens, who say they aren't trans, and probably aren't. But it does make him a crossdresser, just not a trans crossdresser.

[Barbara Ella]

Society as a whole (although I do believe it is changing) does/can not understand being gay, and that is something they are confronted with far more often than crossdressing. Given the only real LGBT thing they encounter are gay and lesbian they know gays like guys, women like guys, therefore if you want to be a woman (the real stereotype) you must like men. Therefore you must be gay. that is the extent of logic the typical normal uneducated societal mind can take. It is just way too easy for them to stop there, and never care about what crossdressing really is, much less the deeper issues of types of crossdressing, transgender, etc. Like I say, it is changing. Stay the course.

Barbara

[Danille]

Well I'm gay and a crossdresser. Sex with a well hung man is always on my plate.

[Mythic]

It's like an act. Sort of like gay drag queens, who say they aren't trans, and probably aren't. But it does make him a crossdresser, just not a trans crossdresser.

I just didn't understand what it had to do with the event. He bought it specifically for the parade. Well whatever suits him.

[NicoleScott]

It has been indelibly connected in their minds that guys who wear frilly stuff are gay. Liberace helped some, but there is a whole history of members of the gay community in times past who signaled they were gay by wearing "girly " things and swishing and limping their wrists and all that.

I work with several gay co-workers. My observation is that most of them can and do turn on and off this swishiness, depending on several different factors, like who they're talking to, on or off duty, etc. Much like some black co-worlers who speak very proper English when in work mode but revert to ghetto lingo at other times (sorry, not very PC, not trying to be judgmental, just trying to illustrate a point). I'm sure I'm guilty, too, as I tend to talk more redneck when with my redneck friends (but we don't talk about crossdressing - hahaha).

[Stephanie47]

As a senior I can tell you back in the 1950's and 1960's if you were a dress, you were automatically categorized as 'gay, although the term back then was "faggot." There was no information available on the subject. The Kinsey Report was kept behind the desk at the library. Growing up with this confusion was really destructive. How could a guy in a dress who easily got an erection over a hot girl be a 'faggot?" The desire to belong or hide led gay men and lesbian women to marry and hide their true sexuality, and, engage in 'unfaithful' sexual activity.

Fast forward, and, many people accept the right of gays and lesbians to live their lifestyle. Heck, schools are fighting over whether kids should be taught about families with two mommies or two daddies. I haven't seen any effort to address the issue of "My Daddy Wears a Dress."

Based on my observation, unless you are married to a cross dresser, the general opinion is the guy is gay and is in a stage of denial of his gayness. Where does society get information on cross dressers? Jerry Springer and stupid sitcoms.

[whowhatwhen]

Fast forward, and, many people accept the right of gays and lesbians to live their lifestyle. Heck, schools are fighting over whether kids should be taught about families with two mommies or two daddies. I haven't seen any effort to address the issue of "My Daddy Wears a Dress."


It's being fought against tooth and nail by various conservative groups.
Hell, even here in Canada one ran an ad featuring a little girl saying "Don't confuse me".

[PaulaAnn]

Interesting thread. Aren't appearences so deceiving? To some of my close friends ,I'm gay but I THINK and consider myself a woman who likes guys, making ME hetro.But I live as a woman 24/7 and prefer the company of other T/G girls so perhaps that makes me Lesbian.I think GG's are lovely but I have no wish to be intimate with one.
Labels ,who needs 'em.
I think I've confused myself ....:confused:
Paula.

[Lorileah]

We are what the media portrays us as. And as long as the the public only get to see what the media wants them to see we will remain gay, perverts (and probably pedophiles), antisocial psycho murderers who all want to be women, who wear flamboyant clothes and gaudy makeup. It sells papers better than family oriented, community minded, neighborly, heroic (because many of us are veterans, or firefighters or police officers or teachers or politicians) everyday people.

What bothers me about the OP is the
I of course also fell back on the fact that she is sitting there in a pair of jeans and a T shirt but if a man wants his nails done forget it. This too is very much a stereotype. One we perpetuate because we believe somehow women have gained something we have not. Anything they gained they did FOR themselves by refusing to buy into the stereotypes. This is at best a poor argument for getting equal rights. No one is telling you you cannot wear a dress (or nail polish) except the little voice in your head. We all have that voice planted there years ago. By lashing out at the person who does not understand with a defensive
"What about you? Look what you are doing" it is better to just explain why you like what you like. A simple "Most crossdressers are straight men who have a wife (or GF) and children. Yes some are gay but about the same number are gay as in any part of society. I am a man who likes the finer and softer things in life."

[sometimes_miss]

I have read some posting in the last couple of weeks about how people like to stereo type cross dressers. Seems the first one on the list is we must be gay.
Lots of crossdressers deal with the same problem. But consider this: Women dress the way they do, act the way they do, smell, behave, etc., because it attracts men. Both nature and upbringing has designed it that way. It's certainly not because it's easier; being a woman is simply higher maintainence than being a guy, so no one understands why anyone would prefer that life if given a choice. They don't understand the concept of gender identity vs physical sex identity, or for those who get a sexual kick out of it, well, sex education in schools sure isn't going to delve into all the kinky variations out there! It's not taught in any schools, even post grad (ever see 'Positions 100, Bondage 101, S&M 102, Role playing 201, Role reversal 202, playing with medical devices 301, Domination and Submission 302, Femdom 401, Escorts and their place socially & sexually 401, etc., NOPE! and you aren't going to!). So, it's a natural assumption that we're doing it for the same reason (to attract men), even if it's on a subconscious level. Huge numbers of people simply assume we're in denial and really are homosexuals. It's not going to change their opinions any time soon, no matter how hard we protest.
On another note, it's kind of odd that since relationships and sex plays so much of a role in everything we are in day to day lives (pretty much EVERYTHING we do is for sex, food or shelter by one psychologist's perspective) it's kind of hard to understand why there is no formal education in these matters!

[ReineD]

Not sure if she understood the hole I like feminine things but I'm really straight thing

I agree, there is a dire lack of education out there about the wide spectrum of gender and sexuality. I've had to explain a few things to some people as well, and I always begin with, "People in our culture believe there is a correlation between gender identity and sexual attraction, but in reality there is not."


I participated in a study conducted by Pamona College regarding sexuality of transgender people.
I can't remember the exact numbers , but MTF (male to female) crossdressers, transgender, transsexual that were/are attracted to women only was in the 40-something percent.
MTF (male to female) crossdressers, transgender, transsexual that were/are bisexual is also in the 40-something percent.
Those who identified specifically gay, or attracted to men was around 10%.
This is a very inconclusive study, and still ongoing.



Anyone care to challenge me on this one? :doll:

The hetero numbers seem very low compared to the general populace. I'd expect a higher percentage of sexual fluidity in the TG community, but not that much higher.

Can you please provide a link to the published study, or give me the name of the researchers. I'm very much interested in determining how random are their samples, and also how large they are. Also, how do they define male-attraction? Do they include occasional autogynephilic fantasies or were study participants having sex with men on a regular basis? Also, are there percentages based on the degree of GID, for example if most of the TSs said they were male attracted, and most of the CDers said they were not, this might account for a low hetero number overall.

So yes, I'd love to read the full study including the questions asked.

Thanks! :hugs:

[Shananigans]

I think many people are beginning to realize that you can appreciate feminine beauty without it affecting your sexuality. I realize this sounds kind of weird...

Basically, I was hanging out with some of my guy friends a few nights ago and we were talking about beautiful women. One of my male friends was saying that everyone notices a beautiful woman...both women and men. I said that the guys noticed because they wanted to do her and the girls noticed because they wanted to be her. But, he disagreed. He honestly felt that a beautiful woman was like a work of art. I kept hammering on the fact that he found women beautiful because he is straight. I mean, duh!!! So, we called every gay man in our phone books. (You can imagine these awkward phone calls made by drunk people to unsuspecting gay people, asking for their valued opinion as gay experts lol). Anyway, all of the gay men that we called said that they noticed beautiful women and found them beautiful. I was kind of confused. But, they were kind of said the same things that my straight male friends were saying. Basically, femininity is beautiful...a woman's body (if she takes care of it) is very beautiful.

So, then, we got into talking about plastic surgery and makeup...everything we can do to alter our looks. They admitted that they will notice and maybe be attracted to her if she has huge boobs and gobs of makeup. But, apparently, the unanimous "look" is the "just got out of the shower look." I literally joke around that on beautiful when I get out of the shower...I think I'm much better with a push-up bra and foundation. So, I kind of said this. And, my friend was saying that he thinks I look good with the push-up bra and makeup...but, he's seen me without any of it and somehow I still look naturallly pretty and knowing that a girl is pretty naturally is a huge deal.

We ended up going into genetics and sexual selection of "good mates."

But, then, we hit on something that reminded me of CDs and how someone can want to look female without really wanting to bang dudes. A beautiful female is one of the most heralded things in our society. Everyone notices a beautiful girl, no matter their sexual orientation. If you're a guy, the media caters to the fact that if you buy a product, you can have the beautiful woman. And, they tell women that if they use the product, then they can be that beautiful woman. The beautiful woman is a powerful image.

So, perhaps, a CD recognizes the power of a beautiful woman, appreciates her, and wants to feel that sexiness/get that kind of attention.

It's nice and it's sad at the same time. I didn't realize how important is was to be beautiful until I was talking to my best girlfriend. We were talking about how I cut my lip as a toddler and my mom hired a plastic surgeon to sew it up. She didn't want me to have any scars. I was saying how crazy my mom is, but was saying what good work this doctor dis because I didn't even know (until I was told) that I had to have my lip sewn up. I really can't tell. My friend was saying how awful it would have been if it had left a scar. I was shrugging and saying it wouldn't have been too bad. But, then we got into how we would have gotten the plastic surgeon top if it were our kids. We recognize that attractiveness is extremely important for a girl...and, we aren't sure how different our opportunities in life could have been of we weren't attractive. The important thing is not whether society treats an ugly woman different than a pretty woman. It's that both of us (my friend and me) felt that our attractiveness helped us. We perceive it as such, whether it's actually true or not that society favors beauty more. We are so plugged into the system that we see it as essential that we are attractive.

Pretty f*cked up.

But, you do get lots of attention...you are noticed. Women notice and men notice (of all sexualities). And, I really do think it's because the female image is heralded as the epitome of beauty in our society. And, I would guess that straight CDs appreciate that beauty and want the advantages of it that society says beauty will bring to you. I buy into it, and I didn't even know it.

[Lorileah]

So, we called every gay man in our phone books. (You can imagine these awkward phone calls made by drunk people to unsuspecting gay people, asking for their valued opinion as gay experts lol).

that is funny no matter who you are. I wonder how the question was put "What about women do you find sexy?" :) I bet your friends are thinking "I have to change my number now" :)

[Shananigans]

that is funny no matter who you are. I wonder how the question was put "What about women do you find sexy?" :) I bet your friends are thinking "I have to change my number now" :)

Lol I feel the friends in my phonebook are used to my kookiness. But, lol...we kept putting everyone we called on speakerphone...and, the guys that some of my friends were calling (from their own phonebooks) were like, "Who is that girl, and why are y'all's drunk asses arguing about this?"

Good times...I think I'd argue with people about the color of the sky...so, my friends are used to my ridiculousness.

[lingerieLiz]

I know the feeling. When my parents found out that I was wearing my sisters clothes, they were ready to send me to the hospital for shock treatment. I convinced myself I must be gay. Finally figured out that the doctors didn't know what they were talking about.

[Julogden]

I participated in a study conducted by Pamona College regarding sexuality of transgender people.
I can't remember the exact numbers , but MTF (male to female) crossdressers, transgender, transsexual that were/are attracted to women only was in the 40-something percent.
MTF (male to female) crossdressers, transgender, transsexual that were/are bisexual is also in the 40-something percent.
Those who identified specifically gay, or attracted to men was around 10%.
This is a very inconclusive study, and still ongoing.

I will say that having been in the company of many transgender folks in various social settings, I have found the number that were exclusively attracted to men, and not women very few and far between....not unlike the study. Gay men just seem to be attracted to.....men.

I think it's safe to say that the sexuality of transgender people is very fluid.

Anyone care to challenge me on this one? :doll:

Based on personal experiences from about 1985 through 1999 associating with trans people of many different varieties here in the Chicago area, those numbers sound about right to me. I've always maintained that MTF CD's have a much, much higher incidence of bisexuality than non-CD males.

Carol