Please set met straight

[LynLovely]

no pun intended. Come to think about it though maybe one was implied.
And that is part of my problem with some attitudes I (in case you missed it) that was I, not you, percieve here.
Some of you will have a problem with that. Fine! Whatever! Get Over It!
Here is all I want to say; are many of you and I need to include myself in that group bigoted? Do we look at ourselves as special because we survived and come out the other end? And for those still in the tunnel?
I tell you honestly as I can I don't know where I am at on this late journey into whatever light I see, but it does irritate the hell out of me to read you are not are a real woman if you... have or not have certain parts. What right do you have to get inside my head and determine my life. I've got that "T" Shirt and it don't fit. From early childhood.
Now I admit I'm not being fair here but when the hell was life fair?
That is the same BS I get from my docs.
I guess that is part of my frustration ; I see my lady doc today and she has no concept with hormones except as how it relates to women. I did get a referral to a endocrinolgist though. Some light?
I can get HRT throught a local practioneer who only consults through chat and she will write a recommendation letter to my doc. I do have health problems which some HRT protocols may not be compatible with. I refused, I will not be a "*****" to a percieved etiquitte just because she presented herself as a member of the elite status I referred earlier to. That is she is a lesbian in a 20 year commited relationship with a 10 year old son from artificial insemination. And that makes her competent how to treat me?
I wouldn't be here today if I listened to that narrow thinking but instead took my health in my control and determined that right or wrong the price was my life. I went with my heart and I'm still here.
I guess I just wanted to rant and while I'd like to say it was just venting, I really hope somebody here can help.
Does anybody know how frustrating it is to be on spiro for 3 years and your "test" be still at 500+ and with no "package nor male desire". To be honest I could care less if it ever gets back up (just not a concern) but with my health, SRS is a fantasay and apparently so is HRT.
End of rant.
But I do wish some here would be less militant in their views (like real women don't have penis's) it is very hurtful to me in that is early in the process (even at 61), and I don't have either the financial resources and heath concerns that puts those things on the backburners.
Honestly I'm not sure you know how it hurts me to write what I wrote being as open and vulnerable as I can today and know that some of you will not understand my anger is at least partially directed at myself.
I said end of rant a few paragraphs back but this still feels like a rant. I'm sorry.
It just hurts...sometimes.
-Lyn
Ps I hope whoever I offended will forgive me, being honest I was lashing out and hoping for some kind of feedback. A fight if you will. I'm not anymore. I'd delete this but maybe the frustration I feel and hopefully the responses may help someone else that would like to do something stupid. So I leave this as my testatement to my being human. Again I'm sorry.
-Lyn

[AllieSF]

Lynn,

I pretty much followed what you wrote here and really do respect who you are and what you can or cannot do. This is a support forum in many ways and you have your right to respectfully, which you are, rant and rave. Just be prepared for the diverse replies that you will get. This is a forum where individual opinions are allowed, some of which may not be to our individual liking. More specifically, since everyone has an opinion, you have people here who strongly believe the opposite to that which you believe, and I respect their right to believe that even if I may disagree with them. I personally believe that if someone believes that they are of the opposite gender, or even somewhere in between, than that of their birth body and body parts, that they are who they believe they are. Now, I also believe that good therapy and the real life experience and HRT under doctor's supervision should be part of that final decision as to where a person goes based on that belief in who they are. What they physically do with their own body and what others think of them does not define who they are. Their, our, opinions mostly interfere with where you and others like you want to go. I wish you the best of luck and hope you can get beyond worrying about what us other earthly mortals think, because we are not the important ones in your life. You are the important one.

[Raquel June]

Here is all I want to say; are many of you and I need to include myself in that group bigoted? Do we look at ourselves as special because we survived and come out the other end?

Hmm... Is that really all you wanted to say? :D

Bigotry means you think you (and those you identify with) are better/smarter/above everyone else.

But it also generally means you're intolerant and a hypocrite. So maybe it's a stretch.

But we've been through more than most. Survived more abuse. Our eyes are more open to reality. To what's important and what isn't. What's real and what isn't. What it is to be fake, to be real, to be male, to be female, to be human.

And hopefully we get through it all and have a better appreciation of what it is to be alive, to be happy, to be loved. Some of us get there.

So it's easy to think of other people as less. At least less enlightened. And feel that most people can't possibly truly know you.

Roy said it best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JjJzMBGUwo

[LynLovely]

Biogtry was a poor description, maybe exclusive would have better suited my thoughts and feelings. I, at least tend to look at things through my eyes which at times ( especially during stress) tends to be more tunnel vision and less on the whole field of view.
-Lyn

[Traci Elizabeth]

Wow! Are you angry at the world or just where you are stuck on the gender continuum?

You state to us: "Some of you will have a problem with that. Fine! Whatever! Get Over It!"

Yet on the next breath you whine and state, "I do wish some here would be less militant in their views (like real women don't have penis's) it is very hurtful to me.." So maybe you ought to take your own advice and "Get Over It!"

I'm not bragging by any means but I have had sex with a lot of woman and not once did I see a woman who had a penis. Guess what, they all had V-a-g-i-n-a-s.

I am not trying to bust your bubble but come on, women don't have penises. I know that presents a problem for transsexuals who still have a penis for whatever reason but when you drop your panties, there better be a vagina starring back at you. Otherwise it creates a lot of problems either now or down the road.

[Stephenie S]

I kinda have to agree with Traci here. Like it or not, the world has sort of come to some kind of consensus on this matter already. If you carry around a penis, MOST people are gonna jump to the conclusion that you are a dude, regardless of how much you protest.

We all know that it's what's inside that counts. And we all (well, most of us) support those youngsters who, early on recognize their problems with gender. Hopefully they will have intelligent and empathetic parents.

But as an adult, you have to understand that the vast majority of people in this world KNOW that penis=dude.


And Traci? Thank you SO much for the link to the KD Lang song. What a tremendous performance. Just awe inspiring!!

Sephenie

[whowhatwhen]

I am not trying to bust your bubble but come on, women don't have penises. I know that presents a problem for transsexuals who still have a penis for whatever reason but when you drop your panties, there better be a vagina starring back at you. Otherwise it creates a lot of problems either now or down the road.

Isn't that just a bit pedantic?
If you're a woman mentally then why does it matter what the majority thinks, especially if the majority won't care if you've had SRS or not.

[Aprilrain]

Isn't that just a bit pedantic?
If you're a woman mentally then why does it matter what the majority thinks, especially if the majority won't care if you've had SRS or not.

How true! Now your just a dude with a pussy:lol:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It is pedantic...So now that it's settled, how does that help anybody??

I feel for you Lyn...i read your post as a venting of frustration...if your issue is that as a woman without the ability or means to transition that its unfair how people view you, i hear you...it's unfair...my own feeling is to say "i know dear" and give you a big hug...but perhaps you can start to take steps to make your own quality of life as good as possible..mitigate gender dysphoria by any means neccessary and doable..

People that don't transition, dont get surgery, hrt or even name changes often complain that people shouldn't read their minds to decide if they are male or female...as if that's their problem...
that is exactly the OPPOSITE of the problem...

the problem is that people CANNOT READ YOUR MIND...and therefore your place in the world is based on your appearance, your legal status and your body parts...

[Rianna Humble]

when you drop your panties, there better be a vagina starring back at you.

Where I come from, people who drop their panties in public to display what is beneath get arrested.

Well over 99% of people who have to interact with me will never see what is beneath my panties but the vast majority of them will have an opinion as to whether they think I am a woman or not.

[Kathryn Martin]

definition of pedantic: overly concerned with minute details or formalisms

Some are not overly concerned with the minute detail that a person claiming to be a woman has a penis. Those that are transition.

Lyn, you need a better more experienced physician in trans health matters because quite obviously your treatment regimen is not working. If SRS is not financially obtainable or the surgical risks are too great, there are alternatives which would take you a long way down the road.




Isn't that just a bit pedantic?
If you're a woman mentally then why does it matter what the majority thinks, especially if the majority won't care if you've had SRS or not.

[kimdl93]

actually, I think the whole point of a "rant" is to get something off your chest...in this case the frustrations of facing physical and financial obstacles that prevent you from HRT and SRS. Its understandable and reasonable to feel frustrated in your situation. So, now that you've expressed that frustration, what's next? How might you address the realities of your situation?

As Rianna points out above, 99% will never see inside your panties. So, is it possible that to a large extent, you can choose to live the life you want ...recognizing that there are limits of nature and finance. Might that compromise afford at least some measure of fulfillment?

[ReneeT]

Well! That was quite a stream of conciousness! The unifying themes are frustration an anger, as i read your post. Frustration- i get that. Dont we all to some degree or another? But anger? Who are you angry at? Your lesbian doc? People who think people with dicks are men? How silly of them! We live in a world, as Kaitlyn Michelle pointed out, in which people take their cues on gender from what they see. It is up to you to take control of your life and take whatever steps are needed to get to where you need to be. No one will do it for you and, sorry, excuses are not accepted. You either own your life or you don't. If this sounds harsh, get over it. Or don't. The choice is yours

My gosh - I sound like Katesback!

[MC-lite]

<What Traci said...>
then
Isn't that just a bit pedantic?
If you're a woman mentally then why does it matter what the majority thinks, especially if the majority won't care if you've had SRS or not.

I dunno about pedantic...when someone finds out that I'm TS, the first question they usually ask is "Are you getting the surgery?" When I explain how much it costs, they usually gasp in horror.

So, for the majority of people that are accepting, it seems that they are expecting me to get SRS. In reality, I can't afford it, but I'm doing -everything- that I can. I'm also coping as best I can.

Which is all that anybody can do. :)

@LynLovely: When I first saw your post, I was going to tell you that You're no different than a lot of people around here. You need to read some of their stories and get to know them. When you do, you'll realize that

A) You're preaching to the choir.

and

B) You have many kindred spirits here and you just don't realize it.

I learned that right away when I joined this forum.

I won't go into my story; It would serve no useful purpose. But there are people here whose stories make my transition look like a fairy tale.

My grandfather had a saying that I will never forget:
"And I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man with no feet."

Things are bad, but they can always get worse. :)

Hang in there!

:Miki.

[ReneeT]

My grandfather had a saying that I will never forget:
"And I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man with no feet."

Things are bad, but they can always get worse. :)

Hang in there!

:Miki.

that about sums it up.....

[Traci Elizabeth]

Where I come from, people who drop their panties in public to display what is beneath get arrested.

Well over 99% of people who have to interact with me will never see what is beneath my panties but the vast majority of them will have an opinion as to whether they think I am a woman or not.

If you re-read my post, I said nothing about publicly displaying your vagina. What I did say was that when you drop your panties there better be a vagina staring back at you!

But come on now. We all know there are reasons that gals don't get SRS and I am not questioning that. That point is a given. My point with the Op's original comments was that if you are so thin skinned that you find find that statement (women don't have penises) so hurtful to the point that you have to start a thread about it, then how are you going to make it through transition no matter how far you travel on your journey?

Getting upset at that comment will be the least of your concerns, issues, or worries as you transition. We all know transition is NOT a walk in the park. There are many bumps, detours, obstacles, set-backs, heartaches, disappointments, and unless you have the stamina and perseverance to travel this road, you ought to re-think whether this journey is right and attainable for you.

[sandra-leigh]

I'm not bragging by any means but I have had sex with a lot of woman and not once did I see a woman who had a penis. Guess what, they all had V-a-g-i-n-a-s.


How many of them were transsexuals?

The official Ontario estimates that the number of people in the province that get SRS is between 12 and 15 per year. The official Alberta estimates are (if I recall) 8-12 per year from that province. The unofficial Manitoba estimates were about 5-8 per year.

Those rate estimations are on the order of 1 per 100,000 population, per year (per million in Ontario!) The estimated incidence rates for transsexualism (http://web.hku.hk/~sjwinter/TransgenderASIA/paper-how-many-trans-people-are-there.htm) vary from 1:11000 to 1:333 (!!)

Either the official estimates of SRS rates are off by so much as to be nonsense, or else the majority of transsexuals never get SRS.

[whowhatwhen]

What's the point of that statement though?
What does anyone gain from "women don't have penises"?

[Traci Elizabeth]

What's the point of that statement though?
What does anyone gain from "women don't have penises"?

I have no idea what women who have penises gain other than maybe an erection every now and then, sometimes, well probably never. Women with vaginas gain "wholeness" and "peace."

[AllieSF]

I see a lot that get bragging rights, right or wrong.

[Xrys]

I cant say I can totaly relate to your situation, but I can partialy. I too want to transition, but currently canot. My obstacle is financial, so it is only temporary until I can get employed again. Unfortunately, the world we live in is extremely bipolar. It looks at things that are either black of white, and their views are often devoid of shades of grey, much less actual color. You must be either male or female. They classify you only with the information available to them, and since they cannot see inside your mind, they must rely on how we look, act, talk, and move. If you do not fit into their one of binary classifications, you are forced to fit into one, and are labled negativly with the atributes that do not match. If you look like a duck, and talk like a duck, and swim like a duck, then people tend to think you are a duck, but if just one of these things are out of place, you are just a crazy person swimming in a pond in a duck suit. That is the world we live in, and for those of us that get classified with negative atributes, it sucks. For a long time, I was verry angry. Angry about having to actlike something I wasn't in order to fit in. Angry about how my entire life seemed to revolve around other's expectations how I should look, and dress, and behave, and act, and talk, and live. I hated everything I was, and everything I wasn't. That anger caused me to loose many jobs in the past, and is still making it hard even now to get a job with an employment history like mine. I understand anger and frustration verry well. They have been a constant part of my life for 12 years. I have no solution for your dilema, no salve to soothe your soul, All I can do is hope for the best for you, that you will find peace and contentment in your future, wherever it may take you.

Best wishes for a brighter future,

Xrys

[ReineD]

I'm not bragging by any means but I have had sex with a lot of woman and not once did I see a woman who had a penis. Guess what, they all had V-a-g-i-n-a-s.

You, better than anyone else, should know that the physical body does not define gender.



I am not trying to bust your bubble but come on, women don't have penises.

This: http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/intersex/overview.html

46, XX Intersex . The person has the chromosomes of a woman, the ovaries of a woman, but external (outside) genitals that appear male. This usually is the result of a female fetus having been exposed to excess male hormones before birth. The labia ("lips" or folds of skin of the external female genitals) fuse, and the clitoris enlarges to appear like a penis. Usually this person has a normal uterus and Fallopian tubes. This condition is also called 46, XX with virilization. It used to be called female pseudohermaphroditism.

This is not to say that Lyn is intersex, but to point out that if we can detect variances in primary and secondary sexual characteristics, there surely must be just as many variances in brain gender yet to be discovered. To believe that only the TSs who are fortunate enough to have the life circumstances, health, and financial resources to obtain SRS can call themselves women is elitist in the extreme.

By your logic then, all the TSs in the world since the beginning of time prior to the medical advances which made SRS possible, were not women.

Please. I can understand if cisgenders who've had no exposure to gender nonconformity rely on physical appearance to determine gender identity. I can even understand if predominately male-identified CDers believe the same. But I should think that transsexuals, most of all, would "get it".

[Traci Elizabeth]

1. You, better than anyone else, should know that the physical body does not define gender.

2. To believe that only the TSs who are fortunate enough to have the life circumstances, health, and financial resources to obtain SRS can call themselves women is elitist in the extreme.

3. But I should think that transsexuals, most of all, would "get it".


1. I agree with you, I do know that. Nevertheless, I do not feel "complete or whole" not having SRS yet. But my SRS surgery date is October 11th. I also believe rightfully or wrongly that if a TS does not "want" SRS and wants to keep and/or use their penis for sexual purposes, then they are not TS.

2. It is not me who is elitist or extreme but society as a whole who edicts what a woman is. Having a vagina is absolutely a major defining physical characteristic in our society and most other societies world-wide.

3. It is not a question of "getting it." Everyone understands that some can not have SRS for whatever reason but that is not to say they don't want SRS or long for SRS. And this does not contradict the statement made by many post-op women that "women do not have penises."

It's also a question of one's beliefs whether you agree with them or not. And like you said, I more than most know what is is like to be a woman with a "penis." Therein lies the difference - I don't want mine and I have taken the steps to correct that "defect."

I have scrapped and saved every penny I could muster to pay for it. I would have begged, borrowed, or well need I say, to correct my defect so that I can be "whole" and at "peace" knowing I no longer have to be worried about having to deal with all the negatives of having a penis as a woman.

I also find it interesting that almost, and again I say almost all women who have had SRS feel much differently afterwards. There have been countless threads here and responses to threads where post-SRS women express how different it is for them now in a very positive way. And they have also expressed that their feelings of being a woman pre-op was totally different than they feel post-op.

Setting aside all these comments, what I really like about this site is that we can express ourselves and disagree or agree as the situation warrants. And finally, each of our realities as it relates to our womanhood, is unique to us individually despite what others think.

[ReineD]

1. I agree with you, I do know that. Nevertheless, I do not feel "complete or whole" not having SRS yet. But my SRS surgery date is October 11th. I also believe rightfully or wrongly that if a TS does not "want" SRS and wants to keep and/or use their penis for sexual purposes, then they are not TS.

Traci, I understand where you're coming from, and everything you say is true for YOU. It is when you (and other pre & post-ops) apply it to non-ops that it stops being true and it comes off as being elitist.

Granted, there are males who want vaginas or breasts for augynephilic reasons and who will never follow through, but I certainly don't think this is Lyn's situation, or others who are in Lyn's shoes.



2. It is not me who is elitist or extreme but society as a whole who edicts what a woman is. Having a vagina is absolutely a major defining physical characteristic in our society and most other societies world-wide.

I agree, there's a dire lack of education out there. I'd love nothing more than to see a comprehensive gender and sexuality curriculum taught in our schools.



3. It is not a question of "getting it." Everyone understands that some can not have SRS for whatever reason but that is not to say they don't want SRS or long for SRS. And this does not contradict the statement made by many post-op women that "women do not have penises."

Again, Lyn did say that she does not care for this part of her anatomy.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Traci, I understand where you're coming from, and everything you say is true for YOU. It is when you (and other pre & post-ops) apply it to non-ops that it stops being true and it comes off as being elitist.

Granted, there are males who want vaginas or breasts for augynephilic reasons and who will never follow through, but I certainly don't think this is Lyn's situation, or others who are in Lyn's shoes.



I agree, there's a dire lack of education out there. I'd love nothing more than to see a comprehensive gender and sexuality curriculum taught in our schools.


I understand both your points and both are valid.

[ReineD]

LOL We posted at the same time, while I was editing my post to address your point #3. :hugs:

[Kathryn Martin]

By your logic then, all the TSs in the world since the beginning of time prior to the medical advances which made SRS possible, were not women.

Reine, the issue is whether a person will achieve the "closest approximation possible". Being transsexual on the Benjamin scale of intensity requires the person to need surgery to become the closest approximation physically that they can achieve. While I am not in the camp of those that advocate "becoming physically a woman or die trying" because it is so de-humanizing I do think that the need to go as far as you can in the transformation of your body is a fundamental ingredient in being transsexual. This is why transsexuals feel that gender and sex are separate issues.

The financial issue is a tricky one. If the need is great enough then no matter what people say this is not an insurmountable obstacle to surgery. I would debate anyone on this point.

The health issue can be a real obstacle. The day I had surgery another woman was to have it as well but because of an acute diabetes issue she could not, and, after waiting 24 hours to look for improvement was sent home. If you will, she "proved" to herself and others that she was seeking the closest approximation possible and there is not a doubt in my mind that she is a transsexual and a woman. In that kind of situation an orchiectomy may be as far as you can go.

When it comes to hormones, it is clear that most transsexuals are discouraged at some point or another from hormones. Almost all of us have had this kind of experience, age concerns, health concerns etc are all part of the game played by medical professional often with a view to "test" resolve. It is one of the most insulting things when people feel they have to "test" you in this way. In Lyn's case it is clear that her physician has little or no real experience with TS persons. It means in my opinion, that Lyn needs to move forward and find someone who will work with her to improve health conditions so that she can be on hormones and, well, move forward.

The notion, that up to surgery, which began in 1949, transsexuals were not women is of course ludicrous. Transsexuals always sought the closest approximation and always will. What was available at the time was just so. If I could grow a uterus, ovaries from stemcells, I would do what I could to achieve that.

If you accept the "closest approximation" premise, the idea we are elitist may fade away.

[ReneeT]

One of the things that increasingly bothers me but is rarely discussed is the cost of SRS. I am a surgeon and a health insirance exec and can see absolutely no reason for the astronomical cost of SRS other than surgeon greed. Since the procedure is usually done in a surgicenter, often owned by the doc, and recovery takes place outside the hospital, and their are no implanted medical devices, where does your 17-20k go? In the docs pocket. Now i am all in favor of ample rewards for highly talented people, which these docs are, but $2,000/hr??? No wonder so many girls are stuck in this hopeless place of an insurmountable financial barrier.

In time we will see most health plans cover SRS-mine will next year. This will ultimately drive costs down as we negotiate for reasonable compensation. In the mean time, i think we all need to feel just a bit taken advantage of by these docs. Maybe as we as health insurance companies negotiate with docs, we will only work with overseas docs - properly credentialled of course. That will put some pressure on the domestic guys and girls

Ok - that was my rant. I'll get over it :-)

[MC-lite]

The problem is that the preferred doctors wil not accept any type of health insurance. The Meltzer clinic (AFAIK) does not accept any kind of coverage. AFAIK, Cigna is the only health care insurance provider that covers SRS. Unfortunately, it's not available in New York State.

Something does need to be done about it, but what can be done?

[ReneeT]

The problem is that the preferred doctors wil not accept any type of health insurance. The Meltzer clinic (AFAIK) does not accept any kind of coverage. AFAIK, Cigna is the only health care insurance provider that covers SRS. Unfortunately, it's not available in New York State.

Something does need to be done about it, but what can be done?

Well, let me tell you. Since the cost differential is so high between western and Asian surgeons, we can put in a health insurance benefit that only applies to certain overseas docs but includes all the travel costs. As more plans cover the procedure, people would use the overseas docs and not the domestic surgeons. Over time, and it will be slow, the western docs will see erosion of their business and lower their prices. Good ol' competition

[Stephanie-L]

Actually Renee, I was thinking that the cost of SRS is fairly low compared to some other types of surgery. My daughter recently had to have her gallbladder removed. A very routine surgery, no complications, healthy patient, done as an outpatient, etc. The total bill was nearly $10,000. Of course it was covered by insurance, and since the surgeon was a friend of mine, he didn't charge a copay, nor did the anesthesia team (since I am an employee of theirs), so I paid about $1100 to the hospital. So, an all inclusive charge in the $20,000 range for a fairly complex and specialized surgery doesn't sound terrible to me. Before I started researching prices, I was expecting to pay about twice that for SRS, fortunately that won't be the case. I do agree that the cost of healthcare in this country is out of control, my wife alone has run up about $2 million due to various problems, again covered by insurance, I think that is ridiculous. I saw the anesthesia bill for my daughter, I can tell you that the people actually doing the anesthesia didn't get paid anywhere near the amount charged, so where is the rest going? So, what are the answers?..........................Stephanie

[Inna]

Hi lin, I didn't have a chance to read all the responses, however, I do hear you, and yes, there are woman born with physical deformities of all sorts, those without uterus or complications in female anatomy, yet they remain female never the less. We had been granted a more stark deformity since visibly it seems perfectly fine, just the wrong body and within the wright mind, that no one can see but us.

No one has the right to label and determine who you are, period! and as it comes to your T levels, I believe there is an answer, however it takes a bit of money, but perhaps not as much as you may think. Orchiectomy can be performed outside US for about $1400-$1500 plus cost of flight and recovery, substantially less then us, and it should level off T to mere minimum. Now, non of the transition should be taken under own supervision and therapy with TG fluent therapist is a must before any HRT, SRS, FFS or any medical procedures are prescribed. But since you mentioned being in transition and taking spiro, I assume that you have been through therapy and given a green light to transition.

Good luck, Inna

[ReneeT]

Actually Renee, I was thinking that the cost of SRS is fairly low compared to some other types of surgery. My daughter recently had to have her gallbladder removed. A very routine surgery, no complications, healthy patient, done as an outpatient, etc. The total bill was nearly $10,000. Of course it was covered by insurance, and since the surgeon was a friend of mine, he didn't charge a copay, nor did the anesthesia team (since I am an employee of theirs), so I paid about $1100 to the hospital. So, an all inclusive charge in the $20,000 range for a fairly complex and specialized surgery doesn't sound terrible to me. Before I started researching prices, I was expecting to pay about twice that for SRS, fortunately that won't be the case. I do agree that the cost of healthcare in this country is out of control, my wife alone has run up about $2 million due to various problems, again covered by insurance, I think that is ridiculous. I saw the anesthesia bill for my daughter, I can tell you that the people actually doing the anesthesia didn't get paid anywhere near the amount charged, so where is the rest going? So, what are the answers?..........................Stephanie

The difference is that you are comparing "billed charges", the $10,000, to the agreed upon, contracted amunt, which on average is 30-50% of the billed charges. So, what was paid was more likely to have been around 4k. What the surgeon received was probably in the range of $500-600 with the rest going to the anesthesiologist, surgicenter, pathologist, etc.

Billed charges are typically vastly inflated because on rare occasion an insurer, typically and auto insurer in an accident claim, will pay billed charges. So the doc sets charges wherever he or she wants. There was a recent case in NJ where a cardiologist billed $50,000 (not a typo) for an echocardiogram, a test that usually costs $300. Hows that for greed?

So yes, i still think $20k is usurious

[ColleenA]

Orchiectomy can be performed outside US for about $1400-$1500 plus cost of flight and recovery ...

I'm wondering how that figures compares within the U.S. I recall a friend having her orchiectomy in Portland, OR, about six years ago (she recuperated at my home). As I recall, it cost about $1,000 - but I may be totally wrong in that.

[Traci Elizabeth]

There was a recent case in NJ where a cardiologist billed $50,000 (not a typo) for an echocardiogram, a test that usually costs $300. Hows that for greed?

So yes, i still think $20k is usurious

I just had one of those and it was free!

[Badtranny]

Well Lyn, you need to toughen up.

Those of us who choose, CHOOSE to walk a different path are generally not understood by most and reviled by some. My identity is reflected back at me by my life every day now and nobody gets a vote in how I live or my gender presentation. You will never hear me rant about how unfair or un-accepting the world is, or the community for that matter. I honestly don't care about traditions, conventions, or good intentions. I have decided to follow my heart and do what makes ME feel like a better person. In the time that I've been on this site I have been called many nasty things, (mostly by people who seem a bit challenged by the medium) one GG even told me in a PM that I was delusional because I was wearing a bikini top in one of my pics. Most of the world cannot even begin to understand what it means to be a Transsexual because it simply isn't within their scope of understanding. Even a Transsexual has a difficult time understanding things that fall outside the realm of their own experience. First you have to accept yourself for who you are, and then accept that no one else may accept you. Arguing with someone about how they feel is like arguing with a puppy about being adorably rambunctious. It's to no avail. People feel how they feel and puppies are gonna chew on stuff. The answer is to find your north star and then follow it. Don't be deterred or detoured by those that may not agree or understand. Walk your path, follow your star, live your life.

...and don't let the *******s get you down.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

jeepers you took alot of my lines!! i couldn't agree more that the minimum is not srs, or wanting your body to be female..the minimum is wanting your femaleness reflected back ...that's why some people can mitigate gender dysphoria without transitioning imho... they get just enough of themselves out there to get some of it back...i always wonder if they can keep it up, but its their responsibility..

i agree with melissa that regardless of the medicial literature, which i never read, it is our responsibility to ourselves to get the best quality of life...

I had srs,
so when i read that you don't want srs, i think to myself...you don't understand...its such a big deal...but i can't read minds, and who am i to say what another person is or isn't...or tell someone what to do..but i can share my experience and my views about it..

and when i read that people don't transition because of their children, i think that's just an excuse and its very doable...
i told my kids and have an incredibly wonderful relationship with them, i got to teach them that being yourself is the best way to be...don't let the B's get you down!!.

i know the surgery is expensive...most surgeons that i consider safe do one or two operations a day..they can be grueling ... i don't know enough if the numbers stem all from greed, but i can tell you that dr meltzers is a brilliant surgeon, he's the sweetest guy in the world, and his office seems plated with solid gold..when i sit in his waiting room, i steal 100 diet cokes to get some money back...

and i loved your bikini top..

[ReineD]

If you accept the "closest approximation" premise, the idea we are elitist may fade away.

I do.

And I know I'm not TS so half of my opinions are picked from mid-air ...

... but I can only imagine that for some people the financial aspect is HUGE. Maybe not just SRS, but if their facial features need considerable tweaking, FFS costs are very high. And so is electrolysis. And frankly there's another factor which I think is present in many people but not spoken about too much: depression. This I can speak of from personal experience but when a person is depressed there is not the internal motivation to move ahead as much as a person who isn't depressed. People feel overwhelmed, they feel as if it's all too difficult to accomplish. They develop a "no can do" attitude. I know, I've experienced this myself. And if you add on top of that a fear of losing their families (I know what it's like to feel as if I am nothing without my family and this is debilitating), and so they give up. Their "inner" resources or strength are just not as strong as the transitioners'. This does not mean their gender identities are any less than a person who has the financial resources and also the "inner" resources to move forward with this.

And so if they don't use their penises, if because of their mindsets they've conveniently classified it alongside other useless body parts such as un-extracted wisdom teeth, in other words if they simply don't notice that it's there, they may well feel as if getting rid of it won't make a huge difference?