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Foxglove
06-21-2012, 03:29 AM
ONE

A fact commonly remarked upon on this forum (and almost as often lamented) is that GG’s have to a great extent abandoned wearing skirts and dresses. The reason for this is obvious: they wanted to express their masculine side. This desire about a century ago was called “Penis Envy”, but that’s a very ugly name for a very laudable ambition on the part of women. After all, as we all know, the notion that there is a clear divide between the sexes in their psychologies, outlooks, behaviour and urges is false. Instead, any individual is a blend of traits that are arbitrarily and wrongly assigned to the male or female.

So why shouldn’t women want to become more manly? After all, it was a man’s world, wasn’t it? By wearing male clothing, by taking jobs formerly held by men, women were allowed to express their deep-seated manly urges that for so many centuries they had been required by a patriarchal society to repress. Furthermore, women were now allowed to develop manly virtues that had for so long been absent in them—virtues such as logical thinking, courage, fortitude, honesty and loyalty. It’s one thing I’ve noticed over the course of my lifetime: women are noticeably less emotional, fickle and petty than they were in my youth.

This transformation of society has obviously been beneficial for all of us. What man wouldn’t want a wife, who by exploring her masculine side, has become a more rational, mature and responsible human being? And who can express the blessed relief it has clearly been for women themselves? When a woman goes out to work as a doctor, lawyer, high-powered executive or construction foreperson, she finds the contentment that comes with the development of her masculinity at the expense of her often deplorable feminine characteristics. So let’s hear it for trousers! The sooner women abandon skirts and dresses altogether, the better!

TWO

A wish frequently expressed on this forum is that somehow GM’s could be persuaded to wear more feminine clothing, as that would make our situation as CD/TG people easier, since society would become more accepting of us. The benefit of cisgender men adopting feminine clothing is obvious: by making them feel more feminine, it would encourage them to explore their feminine side. The merits of this procedure are undoubted, given that, as we all know, the notion that there is a clear divide between the sexes in their psychologies, outlooks, behaviour and urges is false. Instead, any individual is a blend of traits that are arbitrarily and wrongly assigned to the male or female.

So why shouldn’t a man want to become more womanly? We all know that many men do, that they long to express the softer, gentler side of their personality that a macho society has long forced them to repress. Furthermore, it would allow them to develop feminine virtues that have so long been absent in them—virtues such as kindness, compassion, caring and nurturing. It’s one thing that I’ve noticed over the course of my lifetime: those men who have been in a position to explore their feminine side have become noticeably less immature, insensitive, brutish, aggressive and violent than they were in my youth.

Such a transformation of society would obviously be beneficial for all of us. What woman wouldn’t want a husband who by exploring his feminine side, has become a more sensitive, feeling, caring human being? When a man goes out to work as a nurse, child minder, receptionist or social worker, he can find the contentment that comes with the development of his femininity at the expense of his often deplorable masculine characteristics. So let’s hear it for dresses! The sooner we get men wearing them, the better!


So there you have it, Folks, the Old One-Two. Would anybody these days agree with One? I’m a bit doubtful about that. It’s not even sexist, not even insulting, not even patronizing, not even Neanderthal. It’s way beyond any of that. Maybe we should call it “Primeval” with the accent on “eval”.

Why then does Two make so much sense to us? Why has all of that stuff become commonly-accepted wisdom? Why is it that a woman’s “penis envy” is rightly regarded as antiquated, sexist rubbish, whereas a man’s “feminine side” is regarded as so obviously true as not even to warrant discussion?

I sometimes get the impression that there’s a bit of confusion as to what exactly transgenderism and cisgenderism are. It’s like this: cis-guys are different from us. We have a feminine side. They don’t. That’s what makes us Transgender and them Cisgender.

A cisgender guy doesn’t have a feminine side, doesn’t need a feminine side, doesn’t want a feminine side. Not that there’s anything wrong with being feminine. He just happens to be masculine. He doesn’t want to be feminine any more than a cisgender woman wants to be masculine. He might need to be a better human being, but that doesn’t mean he needs to be more feminine. There are many women who could be better human beings, but that doesn’t mean they need to be more masculine.

So when somebody moots the idea that some day men’s clothing might become more feminine, I remain sceptical. Why would a cis-guy want to look feminine? He doesn’t have a feminine side he needs to explore, nor feminine feelings that he needs to express. That’s our department. That’s what makes us “girls”. And that’s what makes us so baffling to cis-people. How, with our physical configuration, can we have the feelings we do? Cis-people find it virtually impossible to understand our feelings because they don’t have them themselves.

(And maybe the reverse is also true. I wonder what it’s like to be able to look at a gorgeous dress without feeling a deep longing to put it on. Cis-guys are weird, aren’t they?)

Yes, it would be nice if cis-guys were more like us, because then we wouldn’t be so all alone, we wouldn’t have to feel so afraid. But they’re not like us, and wishful thinking won’t make them so. We’re a tiny minority, a mysterious minority in the midst of an uncomprehending cis-world. So our strategy shouldn’t be to try to convince them that they’re more like us than they think, because they’re never going to believe that. It should be to convince them that we’re not nearly as bad as they think and that it really is OK for people to wear what they like, what expresses their inner nature. They might some day believe that. What we need is for cis-guys to become more open-minded, not more feminine.

Best wishes, Annabelle

JamieQ
06-30-2012, 05:45 PM
Years ago in one of my first college Sociology classes we had to rewrite a "penis-envy" paper into a "vaginal-envy " paper. We handed them in but I do not recall reading each others. Could you explain "cisgenderism" please? Amanda

RADER
06-30-2012, 06:03 PM
Annabelle;
You bring up many interesting points. But to be brief, I will say this.
Society has embedded the fact that men do not wear a dress. Now like
is seen on this forum, many women see that dress thing a very bad sign.
A man wearing a dress is not the "MAN" I wanted, married, or need to bring up a family.
Until that goes away, by all women, there will still be that wearing a dress is just not
being a MAN by society's definition
I wish it was not true, but we must live with it for now.
Rader

Annaliese2010
06-30-2012, 10:27 PM
A cis-gendered person is one whose gender identification alligns with those behaviors traditionally associated with their physical sex. What you might call the average, normal male who has no feminine feelings or tendencies whatsoever. The opposite of cis is trans. Where one's gender association is opposite to one's physical sexual attributes. Thus the term 'Transgendered' for males who have a significant in-born identification with traditionally feminine ways of thinking and feeling.

Depending on the degree to which one is trangendered the outward expression of feminine behavioral traits will differ from mild to pronounced depending on the individual. A M2F trans-gendered male exhibits those behaviors normally associated with cis-gendered females to an extent that is natural for that person. Dressing in a manner tradionally considered feminine, wearing makeup, doing those things necessary to make oneself pretty and even how one moves and speaks is the natural manifestation of a preexisting inner feminine personality. So in truly transgendered individuals these behaviors are not 'studied' or contrived as say for instance, how a professional actor studies and reherses behavior for the role he has been assigned in order to get in character.

The feminine behaviors expressed by a M2F trans-gendered individual flow naturally without anymore effort than what is normal for a cis-gendered female. A M2F transgendered person simply does what seems natural and appropriate. She wears clothing and makeup according to her own individual taste and preference as any girl does. But it's not the clothes that make the woman. Therefore the term 'cross dressing' is IMHO, a misnomer.

On the other hand it's the opposite situation for an individual with an essentially predominant male identification but who for other reasons dresses as a female. For the latter individual there is generally an inordinate emphasis and attention given to clothing and other feminine accoutrements in an attempt to outwardly pose feminine even though there is no inward self identification as being female. This is in no way a criticism of one condition vs another but the distinction is worth noting.

DianeDeBris
07-01-2012, 01:55 AM
[QUOTE This is in no way a criticism of one condition vs another but the distinction is worth noting.[/QUOTE]

Hi Annaliese -- thank you for this, you did (IMHO) a fine job of explaining, clearly and fairly, and without commentary. As a subordinate point, could you tell me, please, if it's pronounced "SISS-gendered" of "KIss-gendered"? Thanks and hugs!
Diane

Foxglove
07-01-2012, 05:32 AM
Annabelle;
You bring up many interesting points. But to be brief, I will say this.
Society has embedded the fact that men do not wear a dress. Now like
is seen on this forum, many women see that dress thing a very bad sign.
A man wearing a dress is not the "MAN" I wanted, married, or need to bring up a family.
Until that goes away, by all women, there will still be that wearing a dress is just not
being a MAN by society's definition
I wish it was not true, but we must live with it for now.
Rader

You're right about that, Rader. But I think we need to remember that "society" is us. There's no such thing as "society" as distinct from the people that make it up. So rather than saying that society imposes definitions on us, we might rather think of the situation as a majority or a more powerful segment of society imposing decisions on others. The reason that cis-guys don't wear dresses is not that society has forbidden them to do so, but because they don't want to. And since they're the heavy majority, it makes things more difficult on us.

The notion that a man can't wear a dress is in a way no problem for me personally, given that I don't view myself as a man. As far as I'm concerned, I'm TG so I dress to express my TGism. The problem that I do run into is that the cis-world doesn't view me the way I view myself. Of course, we have to remember that many people in the "TG community" don't regard themselves the way I regard myself. They do see themselves as men, and so in a different way they fall afoul of this stricture that a man can't wear a dress.


As a subordinate point, could you tell me, please, if it's pronounced "SISS-gendered" of "KIss-gendered"? Thanks and hugs!
Diane

Hi, Diane! It depends on whether you're a modern-day English-speaker or an ancient Roman. If the former, pronounce it "siss". If the latter, pronounce it "kiss". (Which means that there's still a big difference between "cissies" and "sissies", even if you pronounce them the same.)

Best wishes, Annabelle

suzy1
07-01-2012, 06:41 AM
I find myself at odds with you a bit here Annabelle. [In the nicest possible way]
I don’t won’t women to become more manly.

“What man wouldn’t want a wife, who by exploring her masculine side has become a more rational, mature and responsible human being?” You say.
Well women are just as responsible as men in my opinion. And as for the other traits you mention, that is partly what makes them sooooo fascinating and lovely.
And by saying a woman is not as mature as a man is a bit dangerous around here isn’t it.

The next statement that caught my eye was “ we all know, the notion that there is a clear divide between the sexes in their psychologies, outlooks, behavior and urges is false. Instead, any individual is a blend of traits that are arbitrarily and wrongly assigned to the male or female.”
Yes they do blend to a degree but only in a small way in the vast majority of people.
Woman and men, generally speaking are from Mars and Venus. Its just part of what makes life so interesting and exciting.

A bit of wishful thinking on your part Annabelle?

But this is just my view on the subject. And I have been known to miss the point sometimes.

Your friend, SUZY

Rebeccarabbit
07-01-2012, 07:27 AM
I have read the post, I think Annaliese's statement is very accurate, and Raders too.
Clothes are just clothes thats it !!!! Its how Society percieves people that wear the clothes that creates the problem.
Its still acceptable for a woman to wear mens jeans and shop for there husbands underwear. But if I start touching Lingerie in the womans department store both men and woman shoot you looks that are enough alone........again society !!!!
I was in shopping with Ruth in Anne Summers in full male dress, Ruth asked me if i needed any knickers/ panties. I just replied quite loudly "No I have enough thank you", without stopping to think.......the shop went quiet LOL.....I didnt even realise what I had said until I came out of the shop !!! The reason is because I am who I am inside, Im proud of it..........and I have had enough of Societies pigeon holing, and trying to label people. Live life, be who you are.......do what you want but enjoy it xxxx

Foxglove
07-01-2012, 07:31 AM
And I have been known to miss the point sometimes.

Your friend, SUZY

Sorry, Suzy, dear, but I'm afraid you did miss the point here. The two sections that I started my post with are simply two scenarios--views that some people hold, held, might hold, might have held at one time. They're not my views. I'm simply saying: here are two views, one which virtually everyone would regard as absurd, another that many people regard (in my view illogically) as true. Now what do we conclude from that? And then I've gone on to outline what my conclusions are. But there's nothing in those two opening sections that I personally regard as true.

Bisous, Annabelle

suzy1
07-01-2012, 07:45 AM
A thousand apologues Annabelle. Pure laziness on my part for not reading you thread properly.

But I know you will forgive me.

Bisous, [with a capital B] Suzy

Foxglove
07-01-2012, 10:27 AM
It's quite alright, Suzy. Maybe sometimes I make things a bit difficult.

Bises, Annabelle