Is Gender Transiition a Gamble?

[Beth-Lock]

Those who say that they had to transition, and not transitoning was both unthinkable and to painful to endure, I think, can only base this sort of thinking on a mistaken concept of human nature. We are rational animals. We are devoted to opur survival, pursuit of life more abundantlky, and so on. While many may embark on gender transtion blindly, not counting the costs or dealing with possible devastatinglynegative consequences, that does not mean that these latter, do not play a role in one's decisions, as a human being. In the case of these 'deniers' these factors do not cease to operateor are short-circuitred, they merely operate on an unconscious, or emotial basis, but an emotional basis governed by rationalistic factors, that is not a totally dumb process.
So there are those who take that hard lkine to denying that rationalistic basis of their decision, and those who take a softer line, saying that yes, they thought things over ratiionally at various times when steps in theri gendr transtion made them think, and concluded that they had to do it anyway, regardless of the consequences. This is another point at shich i disagree. If asked by a bad person, a transphibe, if they wanted to transtion, and if they did, he would shoot and kill them on the spot, they would make anoptehr choice Say this bad person was an inescapabke presence in their life, and could permanently block their transition. The rational choice or the emotional, intuitve choice, is the same, nothing is more imprtant than lkife and surviving, and so on, over certain death.
The people of the previous two categories of denier, however get particulary angry should ypu say that many of us, do not make our decision to transition under such drastic constraints, butconsider the psoosible consequnces, like dying under anesthetic during GRS surgery, and take a calculated risk, or in other words a gamble. 1) To deny that this can be a legitimate description of our deciison makinhg process, conscious and rational, or deeply burried in our uncosnssions roil of emotionss near the instinctual lavel, is in my opinion only possible if you make some mistakes in your thinking due to a muddling of some basic philiosdophical issues.
2) So why is it so imporrtnt for so many TS to deny that both gender transiton is risky, and in deicding to do it, we are taking a gamble? When so much heat isexpended on an issue, one suspects that something dark isbeing concealed. Does the official partu line on gnder transtion have a dark side, which just be concealed at all cost?

[Kathryn Martin]

I think the advocates for transition or die trying do not really mean that there is no choice whatsoever.

Surely, picking up the phone to get therapy leading to surgical clearance letter, getting a surgery date and paying for it are all decisions that are taken and which could potentially have an outcome that does not lead to transition or surgery. What is meant is, that the choices are stark and often no real choices when it comes to the decision on whether to transition or not.

I also think that those who undertake the surgery especially when older, very well consider, research and are aware of the risks and dangers undergoing major surgery at an older age. For instance my greatest risks were high blood pressure and beginning COPD and associated surgical risks. In my case I prepared for the surgery meticulously from that perspective and arrived for surgery at good weight, fit from walking and yoga and physically well. I worked for this towards the surgery date to give myself the best possible jump off point. The considerations however that led to the decision to risk the surgery were apart from the usual, carefully considered preparation. The result was that I was up six hours after surgery walking, I healed in record time and am now six weeks post surgery back to work full time with no deleterious after effects. This was no gamble for me.

The dark secret you refer to is when people buy their clearance letter on-line (yes this is not uncommon) without going through the process; Fail to get proper medical preparation for the surgery and show up obese or with health conditions that would have been clearly flagged if proper pre care had been done. The official party line on transition requires to follow the WPath or other Standards of Care and a good amount of common sense.

[Rianna Humble]

Those who say that they had to transition, and not transitoning was both unthinkable and to painful to endure, I think, can only base this sort of thinking on a mistaken concept of human nature.

I'm so glad that you are able to see inside my life and call me a "denier" because not transitioning had driven me to within inches of suicide. Your dismissal of what I experienced has just made my transition so much more of the gamble that you want it to be - NOT!

[Stephenie S]

A gamble? A gamble, Beth? I think not. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but every transwoman I know was more than 100% certain. I can not imagine ANY one actually undertaking changing their gender and not being absolutely positive that it is the right thing to do. And to be honest, many I speak with knew from a VERY early age.

Can there be doubt? Can there be indecision? Of course there can. Just read this forum. The vast majority here are continually questioning their gender identity. But to take the irrevocable step of surgery without certainty seems to me foolhardy in the extreme. Isn't the goal of the much maligned year of "real life experience" designed to cope with just such indecision?

No, I cannot agree that such a step could be considered a "gamble".

Perhaps life itself could be considered a gamble in some sense. Certainly I have heard that said. But I cannot see how that would apply here.

Are you perhaps feeling that YOU took a gamble? Surely you have won, though, haven't you?

Stephie

[Bree-asaurus]

Those who say that they had to transition, and not transitoning was both unthinkable and to painful to endure, I think, can only base this sort of thinking on a mistaken concept of human nature. We are rational animals.

I'm just going to reply to this because even after reading over your post several times, I'm still not sure what you're asking.

I'm one of the people who "HAD" to transition, and it WAS a rational decision. My life wasn't worth living pretending to be a guy. Without addressing and and improving my GID, I would have either made a rational decision to kill myself, or would have spiraled into a depression and done so. I knew what the outcome of my life would be if I did not transition and it would have most certainly been death.

I made the choice, that I had to pursue transition because that was the only way to stay alive. My survival instinct told me I didn't want to die, and the way to not die was to fix this problem.

So, your first assumption here makes absolutely no sense to me... much like the rest of your post.

[Beth-Lock]

I'm so glad that you are able to see inside my life and call me a "denier" because not transitioning had driven me to within inches of suicide. Your dismissal of what I experienced has just made my transition so much more of the gamble that you want it to be - NOT!

Stick with what you know about your own reality of transition. That is okay.

But some others would like to understand the process at a deeper level. We need our own space to ponder our questions.

In short, this is not a thread for you to deal with or even pay attention to, and that is okay.


A gamble? A gamble, Beth? I think not. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but every transwoman I know was more than 100% certain. I can not imagine ANY one actually undertaking changing their gender and not being absolutely positive that it is the right thing to do.
Stephie

That is what makes me suspicious that we are seeing something like a religious myth in action.

Kathyrn did point out that perhaps the reason I see it and many others do not, is that older people are more calculating and less impulsive, and have often become skeptical of the standard myths, whether political or religious, or in a group's sub-culture, including the transworld. Perhaps if you are under fifty, you should print out a copy of this and file it, and then look at it again, when you have some decades of aging behind you. Then, many who do not understand now, will by then underestand perfectly.

[LeaP]

"Gamble" is a pretty loaded word. SRS is a well-understood set of procedures that have been performed in sizable numbers for decades around the world. The risks (not gambles) are also well-understood. Among other things, they include fistulas, tissue necrosis, tissue granulation, nerve damage and sensory loss, incontinence, misdirected urinary flow, bad cosmetic results, issues with hair growth, and more. And then there is post-surgical regret. That's in addition to the normal risks of surgery and anesthesia you already mentioned. All occur at very low rates, according to everything I've read to-date.

Every one of these topics has been discussed endlessly here, so where are your deniers?

Your comment about survival above all is demonstrably false - or at best only applicable to the survivor TS population. The suicide rate among transsexuals is 25 to 30 TIMES higher than for the general population, depending on whose numbers you use. Your transphobia-motivated murder threat scenario has no bearing on the suicide reality, which is based in social difficulties, depression and despair, fear, isolation, poverty, loss, and other factors.

Most people pursuing SRS follow a reasonable care standard, because the reputable surgeons insist on it. As Kathryn indicated, it's possible to cheat the system, but the regret statistics suggest that those who do so are few in number (the most likely scenario) or, alternatively, that the cheating is irrelevant to the results. The standards call for competent therapeutic evaluation, a properly-derived diagnosis, confirmation by a 2nd evaluator, and a real life test. To suggest that rationality is left out of the picture is a gross misrepresentation.

[kimdl93]

Lots of erroneous assumptions that oths will address. I'll stick to the major premise ...that since there are risks it's irrational to transitional and that TS deny these risks. Both are false statements. All of the TS people I know are aware of the real risks, physical, economic and emotional. These risks weigh heavily on the decision to move forward. And they weigh these risks against the benefits.

It is arrogant to assume that because you weigh the risks and benefits differently that those who disagree with your appraisal are irrational.

[Beth-Lock]

Lots of erroneous assumptions ... I'll stick to the major premise ...that since there are risks it's irrational to transition.. and that TS deny these risks..

That sort of twisting of my argument and misrepresentation of what I actually do say is uncalled for. I do say enough controversial things, that you could argue them and likely find flaws in my arguments. But don't pretend you are making progress, arguing against things I did not say. The tangent is yours to fly off on of course, but I will not follow you.

[Stephenie S]

That is what makes me suspicious that we are seeing something like a religious myth in action.
Kathyrn did point out that perhaps the reason I see it and many others do not, is that old people are more calculating. Perhaps if you are under fifty, you should print out a copy of this and file it, and then look at it again, when you have some decades of aging behind you.

Uhh, really? OK :straightface:

S

[Bree-asaurus]

That is what makes me suspicious that we are seeing something like a religious myth in action.

Kathyrn did point out that perhaps the reason I see it and many others do not, is that older people are more calculating and less impulsive, and have often become skeptical of the standard myths, whether political or religious, or in a group's sub-culture, including the transworld. Perhaps if you are under fifty, you should print out a copy of this and file it, and then look at it again, when you have some decades of aging behind you. Then, many who do not understand now, will by then underestand perfectly.

Yeah... because age, by default, makes you a higher authority and of supreme intellect :brolleyes:

Kathryn stated that at older ages, there are more risks to surgery to consider. How does that AT ALL corroborate what you are saying? What does surgery have to do with deciding to transition? I've had one surgery and I weighed the risks. When I have the money for SRS, I will weigh the risks at that point in my life. You think because I'm young I'm going to go take out a bank loan with an insane interest rate and jump into SRS willy nilly and not weigh the risks and how they directly apply to my life and those around me? You're nuts!

I have been far from impulsive every step of the way. What exactly was your argument again?

Or did you just feel like posting your opinion of 'THE WAY THINGS ARE' and feed your aged ego?


Uhh, really? OK :straightface:

S

Haha... made me laugh :)

[kimdl93]

?....
2) So why is it so imporrtnt for so many TS to deny that both gender transiton is risky, and in deicding to do it, we are taking a gamble? When so much heat isexpended on an issue, one suspects that something dark isbeing concealed. Does the official partu line on gnder transtion have a dark side, which just be concealed at all cost?

OMG you are right....you never said that.

[Beth-Lock]

When I have the money for SRS, I will weigh the risks at that point in my life. You think because I'm young I'm going to go take out a bank loan with an insane interest rate and jump into SRS willy nilly and not weigh the risks and how they directly apply to my life and those around me? ....I have been far from impulsive every step of the way.

And? So, you are apparently not the target of my logical analysis, because youi are not simply a denier. No gap in my logic there. But I think you need to read what I did say, over carefully. I know it is a difficult read and a bit subtle for this sort of forum, but I think it is worthy of expression here. I could of course have started a thred about what our favourite colour of bargain shop panties are, but I am confident that tackling serious issues is useful too, even if not everyone is prepared to be serious.
BTW, thsnks for calliing me nuts gratuitously. I had been meaning to renew acquaintances with our family lawyer, anyway.


OMG you are right....you never said that.

Lack of match ofquantifier. I said "so many' you said "TS' which generally means "All TS".
Again no contradition there. Could I suggest a good book on logic for supplementary reading?


Yeah... because age, by default, makes you a higher authority and of supreme intellect :brolleyes:

No, it just means you have been around the block enough times, and fallen for enough shallow arguments you have had time to think about further, that you fall into fewer of that sort of trap anymore.

I admit, I am not really that smart. Boy if some of my smarter friends got on this forum, they could whip the asses of some of these arguers, so badly, they would never want to post again. The fact that even I can point out the simple flaws in some of the arguments presented here, is nothing for you to brag about!

[kimdl93]

Beth, you began this thread by making a number of erroneous assertions about TS individuals and then refer to anyone who responds as "arguers" That seems to be your whole interest here - to provoke and sustain an arguement. You started with a flawed argument...and defend it by questions other's flawed logic. One might question the logic behind that too. Call out your smarter friends and have them explain that to you.

[Bree-asaurus]

And? So, you are apparently not the target of my logical analysis, because youi are not simply a denier. No gap in my logic there. But I think you need to read what I did say, over carefully. I know it is a difficult read and a bit subtle for this sort of forum, but I think it is worthy of expression here. I could of course have started a thred about what our favourite colour of bargain shop panties are, but I am confident that tackling serious issues is useful too, even if not everyone is prepared to be serious.

So... who exactly is the target of your 'logical' analysis? Because your description of your supposed target is all over the map here. So far, YOU are the only one that understands what you posted. And that's not because it's 'too subtle.' It's because you make false assumptions and glaring contradictions trying to describe a group of people. Have you gone back to reread your original post? Because it's horrendously written... I honestly was wondering if you were drunk with all those typos.

Maybe you should take a little time to think this out and rewrite your post so we know what you're talking about. You can just say that we're all too dumb to understand.


BTW, thsnks for calliing me nuts gratuitously. I had been meaning to renew acquaintances with our family lawyer, anyway.

Haha! What does your lawyer have to do with this? Are you hurt that someone doesn't share the same glorified opinion of you that you do, so you will threaten legal action? LOL!!! It wasn't gratuitous at all, but graciously given based on the evidence I've seen. And you're not proving me wrong with that statement! But I'll take it back... I shouldn't be calling you names. I was merely trying to say you SOUND nuts.

Tell you what, you have your people call my people. We can discuss this over some nice roasted unicorn so we don't have to escalate this to the supreme court of rainbows and sugarplums.


Beth, you began this thread by making a number of erroneous assertions about TS individuals and then refer to anyone who responds as "arguers" That seems to be your whole interest here - to provoke and sustain an arguement. You started with a flawed argument...and defend it by questions other's flawed logic. One might question the logic behind that too. Call out your smarter friends and have them explain that to you.

She also said she wanted to have a discussion and we're discussing what she posted. Maybe she should help us really understand what she is trying to say and tell us what, exactly, we are allowed to discuss without being told that "this thread is not for you."

[LeaP]

And? So, you are apparently not the target of my logical analysis, because youi are not simply a denier. No gap in my logic there. But I think you need to read what I did say, over carefully. I know it is a difficult read and a bit subtle for this sort of forum, but I think it is worthy of expression here. ...

Based on the first paragraph of the OP, I would say that you had people like Bree firmly in mind.

Your posts in this thread are virtually incomprehensible. Assuming (with an ever-diminishing level of confidence) that YOU are serious and the thread isn't a troll, maybe you'd like to rewrite your OP so your "logical analysis" actually has a logical structure. I don't understand the contrast between this thread and your prior posts. The latter were clearly-written, whatever the value of the content.

Until then, I see no point in continuing to follow this nonsense.

[Beth-Lock]

then refer to anyone who responds as "arguers" That seems to be your whole interest here - to provoke and sustain an arguement.

The term 'arguers' was meant as a simple description. No negative judgement intended. In thinking of a question like this, arguing is the best way to make progress. It just goes with the territory whether you enjoy argument or not.

[Bree-asaurus]

The term 'arguers' was meant as a simple description. No negative judgement intended. In thinking of a question like this, arguing is the best way to make progress. It just goes with the territory whether you enjoy argument or not.

Well, aside from you not giving us a very clear starting point on what exactly we're supposed to be arguing, I don't really think there is much to argue about. Here... I'll attempt to join your... argument... with the only real questions you have put forth:


Is Gender Transiition a Gamble?

Life is a gamble. Nothing is for sure. So in that sense, yes transition is a gamble. But what exactly do you mean by a gamble? Do you mean gambling life and death? Well in that case, no, it's not really a gamble for those who transitioned to stay alive because every day they are alive is a day they would not have been alive if they didn't. Still VERY unclear on what you are really asking here... so I'm doing my best with what you've given.


Does the official partu line on gnder transtion have a dark side, which just be concealed at all cost?

To have an "official party line" you need to have an official party. Last I checked, transsexuals don't register for the T Party, attend sessions and vote on what we all agree on. And what exactly is this dark side? Again... kind of lost with what you've given. So.... I guess the answer is "NO."

[Jackiefl]

sounds like star wars! (darth vader} lmao

[Stephanie-L]

I have only one thing to reply to this thread with.

PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLL


Stephanie

[Stephenie S]

Whoa.

Let's not get too carried away here with the Beth-bashing. Beth is trying to say something and it may be important, at least to her.

Are you hurting, Beth? Are you upset about your surgery? There may be some advice we could offer if you are more clear about why you wrote that first post in this thread. I am sure you didn't start off to have debate on logic here. There is some reason why you initiated this topic.

What is it? What's wrong?

Stephenie

[Bree-asaurus]

Whoa.

Let's not get too carried away here with the Beth-bashing. Beth is trying to say something and it may be important, at least to her.

Are you hurting, Beth? Are you upset about your surgery? There may be some advice we could offer if you are more clear about why you wrote that first post in this thread. I am sure you didn't start off to have debate on logic here. There is some reason why you initiated this topic.

What is it? What's wrong?

Stephenie

Sounds like maybe you know something we don't.

So Beth, you had surgery. SRS? Do you feel like it was a gamble for you?

[Stephenie S]

That's what I asked Beth in my first post.

"Did you take this step that you are calling a gamble?"

And then I said, "But surely you won the gamble, didn't you?"

Stephie

[Babeba]

There is a place in York called Clifford's Tower where a group of Jewish Refugees, surrounded, took their own lives rather than deny who they were as a people. This has happened before in their history, at (I believe) Masada. I think this could be analogous to someone threatening to kill a transitioning TS in your hypothetical situation. I also use this to point out that for many TS people, there really seems not to be a choice.

Also looking at it from reverse, isn't NOT transitioning a gamble just as much as transitioning if we are speaking in those terms?

[Bree-asaurus]

That's what I asked Beth in my first post.

"Did you take this step that you are calling a gamble?"

And then I said, "But surely you won the gamble, didn't you?"

Stephie

But she chose to ignore your question :/ She isn't giving any personal insight into why she's asking these questions.


There is a place in York called Clifford's Tower where a group of Jewish Refugees, surrounded, took their own lives rather than deny who they were as a people. This has happened before in their history, at (I believe) Masada. I think this could be analogous to someone threatening to kill a transitioning TS in your hypothetical situation. I also use this to point out that for many TS people, there really seems not to be a choice.

Also looking at it from reverse, isn't NOT transitioning a gamble just as much as transitioning if we are speaking in those terms?

I'm wondering if Beth isn't talking about a life and death gamble at all, but gambling that transitioning and undergoing SRS would improve quality of life. Continuing along the lines of 'maybe Beth is trying to say something about herself...' maybe she transitioned hoping that her life would improve and it did not. Maybe she gambled and lost and is trying to see if anyone else feels the same way she does.

Can we get some insight on this Beth?

[MC-lite]

I would have to say that Gender transition is a gamble...yes. You don't know how things are going to turn out. People that say they are behind you desert you. Some of us have our lives thrown into turmoil. Families fall apart. etc. On top of that, you don't know how you are goig to fare on HRT or if your body is going to be damged from the feminizing drugs. Despite what anybody says, I think it's safe to assume that we -all- would like to look beautiful. In reality, that just doesn't happen.

And then there's SRS...

I'm going to avoid responding to the rest of the post. To many things do not make sense, and some of it looks like an invitation to verbal fist-fighting.

:Miki.

[Kathryn Martin]

I also have a notion that this post was precipitated by an experience. I think, given previous posts by Beth, that she recently had surgery. I wonder

[Bree-asaurus]

I would have to say that Gender transition is a gamble...yes. You don't know how things are going to turn out. People that say they are behind you desert you. Some of us have our lives thrown into turmoil. Families fall apart. etc. On top of that, you don't know how you are goig to fare on HRT or if your body is going to be damged from the feminizing drugs. Despite what anybody says, I think it's safe to assume that we -all- would like to look beautiful. In reality, that just doesn't happen.

And then there's SRS...

I'm going to avoid responding to the rest of the post. To many things do not make sense, and some of it looks like an invitation to verbal fist-fighting.

:Miki.

But isn't it only really a gamble if you have unrealistic expectations? If you transition, you need to be prepared to potentially lose your family, your job, etc. But the point of transitioning isn't to somehow give you the perfect life where all your problems are solved. Transition is done so you can be at peace with yourself.

When I decided to transition, it was so I could figure out how to be at peace with myself. I had no other expectations. I was aware that other parts of my life would be more difficult and I was prepared for that. So for me, it wasn't a gamble at all. The only way it could have been a gamble is if I wasn't really transsexual and somehow deluded myself into thinking I was... or if I somehow thought that transitioning would solve other problems in my life that were unrelated to my GID.

I had taken the time to learn who I was and I was prepared to transition. I knew what transitioning could and could not do for me. That's not a gamble in my mind because there is no way I could lose.

[Beth-Lock]

Whoa....why you wrote that first post in this thread. I am sure you didn't start off to have debate on logic here. There is some reason why you initiated this topic.

I tried to make a post on why I chose to start this thread on this specific topic, but then there was a glitch and it disappeared in a cloud of evaporting bits and bytes. I will try and reconstruct as much of that post as I can and perhaps add to it.

This thread was a deliberate attempt to deal with the rather theoretical question that it states, perhaps painfully, as I cannot sit as near the computer screen as I like to. The last thing I wanted to do, and indeed have resolved to avoid, is to talk about my personal matters. If this thread made people mad, talking of my personal affairs would make people rug-chewing, foam at the mouth, temper tantrum angry. Best not to go there.

One thing that put me on to this topic, was when Frances visited me at l'asclepiade, and remarked that she thought that a lot more of the transition story should be told than was normally told, and every time she started to get onto that topic, she got a lot of blow-back. Then, when I was back home, the term 'gamble' came up, and proved a controversy provoking one that was hard to understand.

After thinking it over, the obvious analysis came to me, that the human animal acts in its own interests and so on, but is prepared to take a chance, to gamble, to achieve something. This is normal. Some of the people entering this fray have commented on how obvious this is.

The problem in my mind, is that some in the transworld would deny that seeking gender transition is such a normal process of human action, and instead, has some special status, like a destiny that any attmeptt o blcok or dam up, would be futile and the nromal processes of human decision including by rational thinking, and too the alternartive embarking on actions for emotional or even basic reasons close to instinctual, do not apply.

It seemed to me that the claiming that there was an excepetion to what in prior times would have been conceived as the laws determining human choice and bahviour, was rather too grandiose a claim. Of course tbere are philoosophical ways of conceiving of it that would get around my arguments, quite neatly, but I won't get into that. Sufficient to say, I do not regsrd that way out as really viable, and indeed it presents similar problems to the excpetionalism theory, just mentioned above.

The upshoot and personal connection, was tht I wasted a whole afternoon, when I had more urgent things to do, though it did take my mind off things.

My personal situation has nothing to do with these theoretical issues, except to draw aspects of them to my attention. If you want to know of my personal life, I am currently compiling an account of recent events, but am unsure whether or not to publish them. I certainly will not talk of them on this forum.

No further comment or speculation on my personal situation will be responded to or tolerated.

[Bree-asaurus]

the problem in my mind, is that some in the transworld would deny that seeking gnder transition is such a normal process ofd human action, and instead, has some special status, like a destiny thst any attmeptto blcok or dam up, would be futile and the nromal processes of human decision and embarking on actions for emotional or even basic reasons close to instinctual, do not apply.

Well, thanks for the clarification... but that sounds like something you just made up, as it's the first time I've EVER heard of transsexuals and transition as some kind of supernatural journey. Can you provide any examples of people who have claimed this? Because now this sounds like an argument against a claim that was never made...


No further commentor speculation on my personal situation will be responded to or tolerated.

Alrighty... but me thinks you are hiding something...

*imagines Beth in a Darth Vader helmet choking forum members via telekinesis for asking questions*

You know what I don't tolerate? Scorpions. I kill every one I see!

[Beth-Lock]

I have only one thing to reply to this thread with.

PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLL


Stephanie

Certainly if enough people think I am a troll, I shall be gone from this site instantly. Don't thow around such explosive accusations. if not, people will wonder who the troll is.


Well, thanks for the clarification... it's the first time I've EVER heard of transsexuals and transition as some kind of supernatural journey....
An exception to an otherwise general rule, does not mean it is supernatural. If that were the case, half of French grammar would be superantural!


. but that sounds like something you just made up, as it's the first time I've EVER heard ... Can you provide any examples of people who have claimed this? Because now this sounds like an argument against a claim that was never made...!

Yes Virginia, theories are made up, and unmade, for that matter. No, they do not need the sort of personal support of others to be worth thinking.

I am disapointed that this thread has not resulted in much progress or useful response from others. I feel like a college professor trying to correct simple spelling mistakes on essays, rtaher than actually find signifcant evidence of intelligent life.

Perhaps I will check this thread again a few times, but doing so would appear to be a triumph of optimism over experience. Good-bye.

[Badtranny]

Boy if some of my smarter friends got on this forum, they could whip the asses of some of these arguers, so badly, they would never want to post again.

Well, all I have to say to that is the same thing I said to my boss the other day when he asked if I minded doing the dirty work in a current negotiation we're involved in; I gestured to my clothes and makeup and said "Do I LOOK like I'm afraid of an ass whoopin'?"

Please invite your "smarter friends" in to whoop some ass, I would love to see it, ...and I might even participate in a skirmish or two myself. I do tend to be a shrinking violet, though so I'm not making any promises.

[Babeba]

I am disapointed that this thread has not resulted in much progress or useful response from others. I feel like a college professor trying to correct simple spelling mistakes on essays, rtaher than actually find signifcant evidence of intelligent life.

Perhaps I will check this thread again a few times, but doing so would appear to be a triumph of optimism over experience. Good-bye.

Beth, I am disappointed that you have ignored my post. In fact, I am also disappointed that you seem to think any dissent is not useful dialogue. Why did you ignore my post? I believe it to be a good analogy.

[Bree-asaurus]

An exception to an otherwise general rule, does not mean it is supernatural. If that were the case, half of French grammar would be superantural!

Yes Virginia, theories are made up, and unmade, for that matter. No, they do not need the sort of personal support of others to be worth thinking.

What are you even talking about? You took a couple random excerpts and responded to some tangents that aren't even marginally related to what I was saying.


I am disapointed that this thread has not resulted in much progress or useful response from others. I feel like a college professor trying to correct simple spelling mistakes on essays, rtaher than actually find signifcant evidence of intelligent life.

Perhaps I will check this thread again a few times, but doing so would appear to be a triumph of optimism over experience. Good-bye.

Because your initial post and your further 'clarifications' don't make any sense!!!


Well, all I have to say to that is the same thing I said to my boss the other day when he asked if I minded doing the dirty work in a current negotiation we're involved in; I gestured to my clothes and makeup and said "Do I LOOK like I'm afraid of an ass whoopin'?"

Please invite your "smarter friends" in to whoop some ass, I would love to see it, ...and I might even participate in a skirmish or two myself. I do tend to be a shrinking violet, though so I'm not making any promises.

LOL... boasting that her friends could whoop us all up just reminds me of a young kid saying "My daddy can beat up your daddy."

---

I think I have nothing else to add to this thread because it just seems like some horrible episode of the Twilight Zone where nothing you say is really what it seems! How can we have a discussion when the one attempting to spark the debate is speaking in tongues?

Have fun everyone! I'm audi!

[Kathryn Martin]

I am a little concerned that the responses to this thread addressing the issues raised by you really have not been answered to. How do you get a conversation going on matter surely important, when any dissent is met with what you said below. I think it is a mistake to talk about spelling mistakes and a college professors search for intelligent life.

I think that there quite a number of persons here that have experience in transitioning under similar conditions to yours. You have a tendency to talk down to people when you fail to find assent to your notions. My problem is that this is far from a philosophical discussion point. The issues you are raising are simply practical matters that do not affect the conceptualization of transition, SRS or the difference between older and younger transitioners regarding surgical risks, optimism and experience. I once wrote an article on the subject of "How do you know if your decision was correct (http://facevaluereprt.blogspot.ca/2011/05/how-do-you-know-your-decision-to.html)". You might take a look at it to understand where I am coming from.


I am disapointed [sic] that this thread has not resulted in much progress or useful response from others. I feel like a college professor trying to correct simple spelling mistakes on essays, rtaher[sic] than actually find signifcant evidence of intelligent life.

Perhaps I will check this thread again a few times, but doing so would appear to be a triumph of optimism over experience. Good-bye.

[Beth-Lock]

What are you even talking about? ....I think I have nothing else to add to this thread because it just seems like some horrible episode of the Twilight Zone where nothing you say is really what it seems! How can we have a discussion when the one attempting to spark the debate is speaking in tongues? I'm audi!

Good riddance. You contributed nothing but vituperation!


I am a little concerned that the responses to this thread addressing the issues raised by you really have not been answered ....

I think that there quite a number of persons here that have experience in transitioning under similar conditions to yours..... The issues you are raising are simply practical matters that do not affect the conceptualization of transition, SRS or the difference between older and younger transitioners regarding surgical risks, optimism and experience.

I think I was clear when I stated I did not want to discuss practical matters though I would agree that people did want to debate these issues with me, so badly, to the point of twisting what I said into questions on practical matters, not to mention personal issues. Whether people here have similar experiences in transitioning to me, is completely irrelevant to this THREAD.

i MAY TAKE THE ODD LOOK IN TO THIS THREAD AND FORUM TO SEE IF ANYONE ACTUALLY DOES RESPOND TO THE ISSUES I TALK ABOUT IN THIS THREAD, rather than other things which pop into their mind. but I doubt I will be back, and certainly not for a long time.

But I did get to meet Frances though this forum, and I am grateful for her practical help when I was at lasclepiade, (I neglected to come with phone cards), as well as her moral support when I was there. I still remember our sitting on the veranda, looking out to the river, and quietly talking.

Well, that is all. My personal care worker has just arrived to spend the night with me. Ta-ta.

[ValRom]

what risk? there's risk everywhere: crossing the street, investing money, chopping onions, getting on a plane ...

no one i know says there is no risk in transition - why do you think just about everyone in the TS forum counsels people to investigate thoroughly before undertaking transition

there's risk in surgery of every type ... that's why doctors have you sign form after form... and why they ask about who to notify in case of emergency

BUT I have to cross the street, have to make decisions regarding investing or not ... and i went ahead with transition despite the risks

i had to because the GREATER risk was not to transition and to not have SRS

[Beth-Lock]

what risk? there's risk everywhere: crossing the street, investing money, chopping onions, getting on a plane ...

no one i know says there is no risk in transition - why do you think just about everyone in the TS forum counsels people to investigate thoroughly before undertaking transition

there's risk in surgery of every type ... that's why doctors have you sign form after form... and why they ask about who to notify in case of emergency

BUT I have to cross the street, have to make decisions regarding investing or not ... and i went ahead with transition despite the risks

My point exactly, it is so true and so obvious. My issue is, Why do some not all TS appear to want to deny that they are making this choice in some odd, way, even beyond a compulsive way, different than for any other decision they make in life? Seems to me, there is something fishy in Denmark, as the great Bard would have said.

[MC-lite]

But isn't it only really a gamble if you have unrealistic expectations? If you transition, you need to be prepared to potentially lose your family, your job, etc. But the point of transitioning isn't to somehow give you the perfect life where all your problems are solved. Transition is done so you can be at peace with yourself.

When I decided to transition, it was so I could figure out how to be at peace with myself. I had no other expectations. I was aware that other parts of my life would be more difficult and I was prepared for that. So for me, it wasn't a gamble at all. The only way it could have been a gamble is if I wasn't really transsexual and somehow deluded myself into thinking I was... or if I somehow thought that transitioning would solve other problems in my life that were unrelated to my GID.

I had taken the time to learn who I was and I was prepared to transition. I knew what transitioning could and could not do for me. That's not a gamble in my mind because there is no way I could lose.

@Bree: Some of Transitioning is a gamble; You don't know what's going to happen to your body. I was meticulous and -extremely- careful about trans meds, I never missed doctor's visits, I did everything by the book and I still ended up with a pituitary tumor. As far as the emotional aspects go, Yeah. I agree. It's all about finding inner peace and learning to love yourself.

I transitioned for different reasons than most; I suffered from auditory hallucinations for almost 12 years before I decided to look at the road to transition. I had exhausted -all- possiblities, including speaking with dr Ralph Hoffman about joining his first trials for TMS (Transcrainial Magnetic Stimulation: See this article. This is the study that I was going to take part in http://news.yale.edu/2006/03/09/yale-expands-research-using-magnetic-stimulation-schizophrenia ). I didn't do it because I was afraid of losing my perfect pitch. About 3 years ago, as a last resort, I visited a psychiatrist who specialized in GID and psychotic comorbidities.

To make a long story short, I took a gamble, plain and simple. I was fast-tracked into transition (in 3 months I was on HRT) Well, the gamble paid off. To date, I am voice free. And that's about all I'd hoped for. Any other positive effects are icing on the cake. I really can't afford SRS, so, I don't even think about it.

For me, Transitioning was the bigest gamble of my life. Yes, my life -was- thrown into chaos; about 70 percent of my family deserted me (The ones with a half-a-brain (Brooklynese) stayed) I got to keep about 98 percent of my friends though. Most of them were waiting for me to figure it out and transition. Who knew...:doh:

The important thing is that I understand why I felt the way I did about myself. I blamed myself for something that was not my fault. And every morning, I say that to myself in the mirror.

It's not my fault.

:Miki

[ValRom]

"i had to because the GREATER risk was not to transition and to not have SRS"

you omitted the line above when you quoted me ... and this is crucial in the discussion ... the greater risk included offing myself ... i think that's what we mean we we say we have no choice ... for me, if i wanted to continue living there was no choice but to transition

[Miranda-E]

I know the OP doesn't want to hear it, but transition was the least risky option (option isn't the right word).

[Beth-Lock]

Michaela, in looking back into my past life, I could see that I had gender problems that were also related, perhaps inextricably, to psychological problems and simple weaknesses like shyness. I was glad you related your experience of it. Since I have had a variety of botherson complications, I hope all minor, with SRS, at times I wondered if my friends who tried to persuade me not to have SRS had a point. One thing I found out, was that you not only need enough money to pay for SRS, but extra to cope with perhaps complicated aftercare. I have spent already about $3,000 on personal care workers to help me get though the post op period. Then I had already spent close to $1,000 to go out of town and stay at a hotel, for the initial interview with the surgeon. Then there are the sick-room supplies, and so on, that cost hundreds of dollars.

But I am happy your transition made your life much more bearable.


I know the OP doesn't want to hear it, but transition was the least risky option (option isn't the right word).

On the contrary. I am happy if you are happy.

[MC-lite]

@Beth-Lock: Thank you for your kind words. :)

Michaela, in looking back into my past life, I could see that I had gender problems that were also related, perhaps inextricably, to psychological problems and simple weaknesses like shyness. I was glad you related your experience of it.

It took me a -long- time to be able to even talk about it without breaking down and crying. The truth is, I blamed myself for things that were -not- my fault.


at times I wondered if my friends who tried to persuade me not to have SRS had a point.
But you're glad that you didn't listen to them...right? When the dust settles, you'll be a brand new woman. You'll have acheived what so many of us dream about. Myself included.

There was a plaque on the wall of an engineering shop where I worked. It said
"When you're up to your A$$ in Aligators, It's difficult to remind yourself that the initial objective was to drain the swamp."

I hope that your medical problems are indeed minor ones.:hugs:

:Miki.

[ReineD]

Flaming: Also known as bashing. A hostile and insulting interaction between Internet users. Flaming statements often include the pronoun, "You".

Here's an example:

Good riddance. You contributed nothing but vituperation!

In order to save this thread, I'd have to delete all such personal remarks. There are too many, and not just from Beth.

Thread closed.