How many of us are JUST crossdressers?

[Frédérique]

According to the masthead of this site, this is the “#1 community for crossdressers, their family and friends.” I used to be on a site in the UK called Rose’s Forum, and, just for the heck of it, I checked in on that site to see if it still exists in some capacity. It does, although there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot going on these days, if the amount of threads is any indication. I was struck by the masthead of THAT site, which states “This is a forum for transgendered persons, their friends and families.” This got me thinking – I can’t (or shouldn’t) really be on that other site. Why? Well, I’m not transgendered, am I? I’m just a crossdresser...

I’m a male that likes to wear women’s (or girl’s) clothing – that makes me a crossdresser, specifically a MtF crossdresser. I have no desire to be a woman, and I have no desire to live my life AS a woman, 24/7, in lieu of SRS. Calling me transgendered is like calling Pablo Picasso a surrealist – to other surrealists he is (or was) one, at one time, depending on how you look at it, but he didn’t think of himself in those terms. Confused? Let me tell you, I get confused when transgendered individuals say I’m transgendered just because I crossdress...

Back in 2005 I went looking for crossdressing websites, and I stumbled upon this one. I tried to join, thrilled that I would soon be amongst my purported peers, but something went wrong with my registration and I couldn’t get “in.” What to do? I eventually looked around for another site, found Rose’s, and I wrote about my crossdressing adventures and opinions on that site for a year. I met many friends all around the world, some of them CD, some of them TG, and some of them TS. It was never clear who was who, but there were times when it became obvious that “plain old” MtF crossdressers were far down on the pecking order...

I would write about crossdressing, and TG’s would “dress me down” in no uncertain terms. Was I blind? I now realize I was amongst a preponderance of TG’s, so this is why I felt isolated within my own sub-genre of gender exploration. I left that site and never looked back, except for a few brief glances like the one I have already mentioned. When I moved to my current location in 2006 I tried crossdressers.com again, and this time I was successful! At last I would be able to “meet” other MtF crossdressers like myself, at least that was the original idea...

So, here I am, a few years later, and there are several transgendered individuals on my ignore list who either don’t like ME, don’t like what I represent, or don’t like what I write. Relax, there are plenty of crossdressers who dislike me, too, but I’m trying to make a point. If this is supposed to be a discussion forum for crossdressers (see above), shouldn’t we (somehow) be allowed to discuss our crossdressing without incursions from the transgendered “community?” I’ve written a lot about this, mainly because I can’t help but notice it – there is a BIG difference between a male who dresses as a woman for tactile or sexual reasons, and a transgendered person who may be way more serious about what they do. Some of the latter “dump” on the former to a certain degree...

I’ve seen it, time and time again, in this very MtF crossdressing section. If you crossdress, you MUST be transgendered, or on the road to being transgendered, or transgendered without knowing it. To others, the act of crossdressing makes you transgendered. Apparently I, the MtF crossdresser, have certain obligations to fulfill – I cannot let down the "community," even though the community looks down on me. I can’t just dress to please myself, stay within my zone of safety, and live in a fantasy world of my own making; I MUST get out there and put myself in harm’s way like a true TG, come what may. If I don't, I’m not to be taken seriously, no matter how well I can plead my case for fairness...

Like I said, there are many TG people on my ignore list, specifically the ones who scoff at “hobbyists” or part-timers like us. I don’t need this kind of abuse, especially on a site CALLED crossdressers.com. Many times I’ve written something for US, namely the glorified panty fetishists, and it will generate a condescending post like this: “Frédérique is entitled to her opinion...” Yes, I am, but isn’t it queer that I, a crossdresser through and through, has to be defended on a CD site? I get the feeling I don’t belong here, but what else is new? Since I put on women’s clothing (and underwear) on occasion, paint my nails, paint my lips, don my hosiery of choice, don my wig, slip into my cute shoes and cavort in my chosen space (in or out), I feel like, just maybe, I am entitled and justified to be on a site like this. As it is, I still have to fit my CD opinions in edge-wise and hope I’m connecting SOMEWHERE. Alas, many of my threads are peppered with comments I cannot see, let alone read, because someone who looks down on me is taking the time to do just that...

I have many TG friends, of course, but, to put it mildly, there is little to talk about. Based on past experiences, I feel inferior. MY very BEST friend is transgendered, or she is convinced she is, or others tell her she is. Subsequently, she is confused. Sigh. If anyone out there is JUST a crossdresser, happy to be so, and you’re either as confused or frustrated as I am, PM me – I’d like to meet you...

Are you JUST a crossdresser? :idontknow:

PS – I’m NOT trying to stir the pot, I’m just telling it like it is. Something is wrong when a MtF crossdresser (me) feels like an outsider on a site with “crossdresser” in the title...:straightface:

[Desiree2bababe]

I suppose you would call me just a crossdresser although the activity did lead me into homosexual avenues at times, I remain married and straight with bi-tendencys. I would never transition, I like my male self too much for that. When I was active about town, I found it perculair that transvestites were looked down upon in the gay community, or maybe ignored is a better word but I understand why as most gay males are after the he-man type. Only places I felt at home were at show bars.

I would love to be your friend, feel free to pm to discuss anything. I see you as a very thought provoking person.

[Debglam]

Like I said, there are many TG people on my ignore list, specifically the ones who scoff at “hobbyists” or part-timers like us. I don’t need this kind of abuse, especially on a site CALLED crossdressers.com. Many times I’ve written something for US, namely the glorified panty fetishists, and it will generate a condescending post like this: “Frédérique is entitled to her opinion...” Yes, I am, but isn’t it queer that I, a crossdresser through and through, has to be defended on a CD site? I get the feeling I don’t belong here, but what else is new? Since I put on women’s clothing (and underwear) on occasion, paint my nails, paint my lips, don my hosiery of choice, don my wig, slip into my cute shoes and cavort in my chosen space (in or out), I feel like, just maybe, I am entitled and justified to be on a site like this. As it is, I still have to fit my CD opinions in edge-wise and hope I’m connecting SOMEWHERE. Alas, many of my threads are peppered with comments I cannot see, let alone read, because someone who looks down on me is taking the time to do just that...

I have many TG friends, of course, but, to put it mildly, there is little to talk about. Based on past experiences, I feel inferior. MY very BEST friend is transgendered, or she is convinced she is, or others tell her she is. Subsequently, she is confused. Sigh. If anyone out there is JUST a crossdresser, happy to be so, and you’re either as confused or frustrated as I am, PM me – I’d like to meet you...

Are you JUST a crossdresser? :idontknow:

PS – I’m NOT trying to stir the pot, I’m just telling it like it is. Something is wrong when a MtF crossdresser (me) feels like an outsider on a site with “crossdresser” in the title...:straightface: [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Freddy, I know friends who have left this forum because of the very small minority of "mean girls" you refer to. Bottom line is keep ignoring them, I do, they aren't worth your mental energy and clearly have their own problems. When they are not claiming superiority to the crossdressers, and anyone else below their level of transsuperiority, they fight amongst themselves. Spend your time and energy on the vast majority of beautiful, nice people all across the trans spectrum on this forum instead.

Cavort away! :heehee:

Debby

[nvlady]

I will offically throw my wig in the ring.
I am a crosdresser. Period. I don't want to transition, I don't want to dress full time, I don't underdress, I don't even want to go outside in anything but my drab clothes.

[DonnaT]

Crossdresser falls under the transgender umbrella.

I wouldn't crossdress, if I wasn't trans on some level.

IMHO, it is the trans characteristic/need/urging, that can only be satisfied/calmed/sated/appeased by crossdressing.

[Huntress]

Hiyo Freddy,
Just a crossdresser, although I mostly dress when I'm in a good mood, not just when I'm cross.

If an over arching clinical or social umbrella needs to be put over crossdresser...let them make themselves tired. Pfffft.

Your posts always merit a mandatory click because they are thoughtful, funny, educational and oftentimes poetic.

I'm not into the naming of names. I'm into action, because I'm an action guy/grrl. You CAN raise my ire by calling me late for dinner.

All this naming/category stuff is a disservice to us all. What color is your gender/sex parachute is a divisive tool generated from within and without to keep us fractionated. Divided we fall.

I ignore the edicts of inter-web bureaucrats/experts, Psychi wonder kids, trolls, and nattering nabob-bery that often crops up. Life is too short. If they get too obstreperous, I surf on or log out and go fire up one of my pricey diversions.

De Oppresso Liber,
Huntress

[dragdoll]

I consider myself "bi-gendered", or just androgynous. I don't even consider what I do crossdressing anymore. I look at most of my casual wear as unisex clothing, regardless of which gender it was designed for.

[Eryn]

Frédérique, in any group of people you will have some that are obnoxious, opinionated, blunt, and/or overly competitive. You are under no obligation to pay attention to them. The vast majority of people here are friendly and supportive of all. Concentrate on the good, ignore the bad.

[Mythic]

I'm just a crossdresser. I can't say I feel like the opposite gender. I just believe I can wear any piece of fabric I damn well please. Weather it's a skirt or jeans.

[busker]

Frédérique,

I'm logging in to add my very femme name---Busker--to the list of just plain old vanilla crossdressers. I'm not any different in my attitudes dressed in drab or drag, I don't have another personality, if my body was awash with any chemicals when I was a child , it would have been flouride as my 6th grade class acted as guinea pigs for the flouride tooth fairy ( and probably Dow chemical), I was born exactly at the moment expected, not a minute to soon or too late, my crossdressing started at the same time as puberty and is likely more related to a psychological issue than a genetic malfunction, it disappeared for a large stretch during my adult life, came back with a whimper, I lost a lung to cancer but I got 38B boobs as the booby prize (from gynecomastia) and wear a bra for real but never feel that I want to be a woman, I'm just enjoying my tights, which at the grand age of 69, are partially responsible for keeping me upright. I guess in this day of specialization, just being a plain old crossdresser no longer cuts the mustard ( or is that must turd?). Umbrella groups have been formed and though they include us, it does seem begrudingly so.

[Cynthia Anne]

Wow Frederique! This hits home! I am very TG and I DON'T pick my friends based on tg or cd! I do tend to stay away from hatred! There is a lot of love showin' on this site! But I will never know why one group thinks their better then another! I was NOT put on this earth to judge! As always HUGS!

[Lucy_Bella]

I am only a Cder every other Sunday ,Tuesday and Fridays,, ..I am a TG every four years on Feb 29 th.. Any other day I really don't count ..

[Anne2345]

Freddy,

When I intially joined the forum, I believed I was wholeheartedly a happy go lucky crossdresser. Nothing more, nothing less. But a funny thing happened thereafter - I was attacked in various posts of mine for being too fearful, weak, and naive. I did, however, fight back, and I did so on several occassions as the circumstances warranted.

In particular, there were certain, consistent "attackers" that challenged my beliefs, that challendged my being, and that were quite rude, harsh, and uncompassionate in doing so. My intital inclination, along with those that supported and believed in my position, was to ignore these members. I even took it a step further - I attempted, and in certain instances successfully so, to discredit such members. Despite the hostile and irresponsible attacks I was subjected to, I to this day regret using my words against those that should be with me, but were not.

The funny thing is that I have since learned that I am transgendered. Not only do I consider myself transgendered, but I take it a step further - I consider myself to be transsexual.

As does Freddy, I have many friends that occupy both sides of the aisle. The aisle, ideally, should be at peace with each other, and look out for each other's interests. Although true both groups interests are divergent, and not technically the same, as far as I can tell, society lumps us in all together regardless. And despite this, I believe there is enough commonality between the two groups that we should encourage each other, not fight against each other.

At the end of the day, I simply see no benefit whatsoever to dividing the issues and enganging in in-fighting.

Back to the original question though - I do believe there are differences between the TG, the TS within the TG, and the CDs. I also believe that these are issues that and differences that should be easily rectified among the groups between educated minds. There is too much at stake not to view it otherwise.

But even beyond the politics of it all, one must consider the humanity of the moment. For example, taking Freddy, my dear, fantastic friend Freddy as an example. She is a self-professed cross-dresser. Nothing more, nothing less. She is beautiful, magnificent, and wonderful unto herself. She engages in the magic of crossdressing, and experiences it for what it is - pure blessed enjoyment, satisfaction, and personal growth. I, on the other hand, identify as a TS. I am no better nor no worse than a CD. The reverse holds true, as well. The only distinguishing attribute between the two is the intent, the mission, the goal, and the end result.

If the CD is about fun, satisfaction, the pursuit of beauty, and the satiation of a specific need, then the more power to them. I have my own issues. They are no less important, but some of my goals certainly overlap with the world of the CDs. Personally, I love it all. Be yourself, to the extent you can. Offer yourself to the world. Or in the alternative, enjoy yourself in the comfort of your magnificent, imaginative, brilliant closet. I am not one to judge. I have run the gammut. But even if I had not, it would be no matter.

We are all beautiful people, blessed with certain attirubutes and gifts. Granted, there are many, many days that I struggled not to see me gifts as a curse, and the pain can be merciless, but at the end of the day, when all of the smoke clears, I still seek out that beauty, that magic, that makes life worth it. But for that, I would have given up long, long ago. Do not give up. The world is out there for us all. I have learned much over the past year. I have gone from a "can't" attitude to a "can" attitude.

But to address Freddy's issue, neither she, nor any one like her are inferior to the TGs. In fact, as one of these so-called TGs myself, Freddy can write circles around the concepts, meanings, and ideas I write about. She leaves me in the dust with her imagination, intuitiveness, and creativity. Even though I believe I am different from her, and those such as her, I have learned much. And even beyond that, and more importantly, I have gained more through friendship, compassion, and love, than I could have ever imagined possible before.

There is definitely a benefit to maintaining a diverse group of friends. There is an even larger benefit, no matter their backgrounds, to maintaining a better, closer group of friends that are able to be there through thick and thin on any given issue.

And Freddy, thank you for being just such a person! A magnificent, brilliant, amazing friend and person whom I respect and love tremendoulsy . . . .

Anne :)

[Barbara Ella]

OK, now my paranoia is kicking in, but I guess there are likely a log of ignores out there. I really do not know what I am as i am so very new to this experience of donning women's clothing. I am a crossdresser and that is why I am here. Why I do it is the topic of discussion for which i want opinions from everyone, and weigh them all equally as I try to sort out where I am. I have some girls whom I would consider friends, and yet i do not know, where many of them would classify themselves, others I know because we have discussed our positions. i guess they are friends because they have never made me feel inferior. Those that might do that have probably not tried to become friends with me.

Am I transgendered? I suspect I am, but I really dont know enough yet to know what that means to me, or how to recognize it in me yet.

So, what I am is a confused crossdresser. This lets me answer your last question in the positive, at least partially. I truly wish you did not feel like an outsider, because that definitely does not correspond to my impression of you as one of the more inside (my head) people here. Just don't stop being.

Barbara

[KellyJameson]

Frédérique

For myself I was relieved to learn that most who crossdress are not driven to surgically alter their bodies.

In my opinion anyone who suffers from gender dysphoria and would want someone else to have GID is a sociopath that needs others to suffer so they somehow benefit.

Many of the same forces that go into creating genius also go into creating madness and I think there are similar forces at work with crossdressing versus being transsexual

In my opinion CD's and TS's are born from the same soil but each arrived at a fork in the road and a few went left (TS's) while most (CD's) went right and we end up calling the soil transgendered and forgetting about the individual but the soil (conditions) placed everyone on the path without choice because we were born into it.

I see CD's as transgendered (umbrella) as distant consins where we share the same blood but yet are very different and this can be measured in pain. Most who crossdress do not suffer torments imposed internally but externally by others where with GID it is the pain of the internal made external so the pain comes from the opposite direction and so is different but with similarities.

I suspect I enjoy crossdressing for many of the same reasons crossdressers do, I like color on my nails, enjoy the touch of silk and appreciate feminine fashion and have experienced a touch of autogynephilia if admiring my form as a sexual object is what qualifies me for this disgusting label.

Often in the words of someone who identifies as being a crossdresser I see hints of what appears to be "gender longing" that feels eerily similar to what I experience as GID but the motives are different just as fantasy and reality are different.

I personally have never met a transsexual who did not start out crossdressing and I have met a number who at first identified as someone who crossdressed without any of the gender identity problems but the crossdressing in time pealed back deeper truths that had been buried usually from social conditioning intersecting with the survival instincts and desire for love.

The clothes can be used as tools for powerful self exploration or they can be nothing but clothes and I have a bearded friend who does nothing to feminize his appearance but likes to wear a dress now and than because it is pretty and he likes pretty things.

I see the word transgendered to include anyone who bends gender and hope someday that every single person will fall under this umbrella because gender binaries divide and polarize society creating violence.

Those who have attacked you are coming from a place of pain and fear, this does not justify their behavior but may lessen the sting of their actions.

You bring a great sensitivity to the forum but the forum is in many ways a place of pain for those who have been unfairly injured by circumstances of fate and as such can be a volatile place as all war zones are.

I suspect your words heal more than they harm and hope you continue offering up your wisdom, imagination and insights. Those in pain are usually more vocal but it does not make them necessarily more important just more likely to be selfish.

[paulinescotlandcd]

Yes, i am just a crossdresser, nothing more. I have no gender issues.

[Jolene Robertson]

I cross dress only, I am married and have a supporting wife. I enjoy being a genetic male but I have a fem, side too. I love the way a woman looks and sometimes I like to look and feel like I am one of them. It make me feel complete, the clothes are liberating and feel sexy (to me). When I was younger it did cause me to have to question myself though, but I came to accept myself the way I am. Just a lady inside sometimes.

[Marie-Elise]

I will offically throw my wig in the ring.
I am a crosdresser. Period. I don't want to transition, I don't want to dress full time, I don't underdress, I don't even want to go outside in anything but my drab clothes.

Ditto...except for the going outside in anything but drab clothes. I would love to just once got out en femme. Doubt it will ever happen but who knows?

[SusanQ]

I like to wear women's clothes, but I have no desire to be a woman, nor to have a sexual relationship with any men. So I guess I'm plain old vanilla too.

[Lisa Gerrie]

I'm a straight crossdresser. Both meanings of the word straight.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Fredierique, I to am just a happly married crossdresser who is glad to be your friend.

[LeaP]

Freddy,

While everyone is different, some people seem to inhabit their uniqueness. You are no outsider, but you do stand out in many ways - all good, I haste to add. Still, you are pulled to community, but in this case to what is evidently the simple crossdressing margin. Your descriptions of that place are peaceful and happy, however, and you create a sense of place and time in your posts that tugs the fringe into a center of your own making, one that I'm happy to visit from time-to-time.

Who could be less of an outsider than one who makes such a contributution to community?

[mcvste]

I met many friends all around the world, some of them CD, some of them TG, and some of them TS. It was never clear who was who, but there were times when it became obvious that “plain old” MtF crossdressers were far down on the pecking order...

That's sad.
I'm TG rather than CD but most of us are nice, so don't worry.

[Marlana]

So this thread has really struck a cord with me. I too am a crossdresser. When my wife is away, i like to dress in womens clothes and go about my day in the comfort of my home. Would I like to go to the store, wash my car, do whatever in public? Sure. Just to see how it feels, to see if I'm comfortable. Truth is, I don't have what I need to do this so I don't foresee it happening. But I still long to try it. What does that make me?

What I'm reading sounds familiar. Like asburgers is to the autism umbrella so crossdressing is to the transgender umbrella. But because one likes to sporadically wear womens clothes, that means we're transgendered? I'm not so sure of that. I personally feel that since I've been doing this since I was 13, I may be TG, deep down and just in denial. I underdress nightly before bed. My wife knows I have an issue with this, but doesn't want to see/talk about it. My son is autistic and needs a male role model. I love them both more than myself so where am I going? I'll tell you, right back in the closet when she gets home.

I really enjoy reading the posts here and sharing my feelings with you all. Thanks for staying with me.

[Teri Ray]

Hey folks lets all get with the potilcally correct terms for 2012.........................I am not a crossdresser ......................I am apparal dysfunctional................but that would make a crummy website name wouldn't it...........ok I pick door #1 ................I am just a crossdresser............final answer?

[Sandra1746]

This has the potential to become a flame war, a very similar set of threads on the TS side did just that.

The terms CD and TG are loaded with so much baggage that may be instructive to check out the WIKIPEDIA entries for "Benjamin Scale" and "Transgender". Harry Benjamin never used the term TG, it was developed somewhat later. He was more interested in TS-people.

I think if you read the entry for TG you will notice that it focuses on "...presenting in a manner different from your genetic or 'birth assigned' sex...". The descriptions go on for quite a bit, TG paints with a very broad brush.

At the root of it all is the question of what you (personally) wish to call yourself. While a non-professional might disagree with your self-diagnosis, you can refer to yourself in any way you please. If being referred to as TG is offensive to you don't use the term yourself but it is going to be really hard to dissuade others from using it.

Just my $0.02,
Sandra1746

[Melanie Sykes]

Hi Freddy. I really love the people and discussions we have in this forum, and have always enjoyed your posts in particular. I agree with you wholeheartedly on this, and have been thinking the same things myself. I stopped short of starting a thread about it for two reasons: firstly, I'm a lazy poster and secondly, from some of the comments I've read here in the past I felt I must be in a bit of a minority, which did strike me as odd at a site with a title such as this one has.

Yes, I'm just a crossdresser. I don't think I'm transgender, but maybe I am. I don't really care what the label is. I'm a straight guy who loves wearing women's clothes, and I intend to progress to a wig, makeup and forms one day, but that'll be as far as I go. I want to be with a woman but I have no wish to become a woman. I do feel it's hardly possible to feel closer to a woman than by stepping into her very clothes, and whilst I feel I have somewhere an inner femininity which the dressing helps me embrace, I have no doubt that the larger part of my personality is male. I'm fine with this balance. I like to dress whenever I can and I often under dress when I can't, but I'm still happy to be just a man who appreciates femininity.

I've mentioned in previous posts that because my wife loves my facial hair and doesn't want me to shave it off, I tend to go out in public (far away from home) looking like a guy in women's clothes. This does seem to be heavily frowned upon in this forum, even though I dress perfectly sensibly and am well-groomed. I've never had any problems from the general public whilst being out and about dressed. I often read makeup tips and look at wigs and forms and am really excited to try it all one day. I can't wait to primp and preen in front of a mirror in a taffeta dress, but in the meantime I still feel the need to go out and be a plain old crossdresser in everyday womenswear: not because I want to shock or offend, but because it's simply a huge part of who I am. It's intrinsic to me, and just because I don't want to become a woman, it doesn't mean that I don't want or need support, or that I belong here any less.

I believe that in going out as a guy in non-outrageous women's clothes and being well-mannered, polite and well-behaved, I am doing our community some good; if we all went out en-femme looking gorgeous and "passing", no-one outside of sites like this would be any the wiser, and society would remain ignorant of our numbers, or maybe of even our existence. I think it does society good to see a man who's not afraid to wear something smart but unexpected - keeps society on its toes, so to speak. And the more it happens, the more people encounter a crossdresser who is obviously as sane as they are, the more accepting people will become.

I certainly don't want to alienate or distance myself from anyone here who identifies as transgender, transsexual, transistor radio or any other label. We are who we are. As someone once said, "No-one on earth could do a better job of being YOU". All of you who contribute to this site are unique and wonderful and I truly appreciate you and your contributions, and I know the rest of us do too. This post has been an opportunity for me to consider who I am and what I think about myself and about how I fit in with you all. And indeed about how you all fit in with me (which is, I'm pleased to say, very well).

Thank you ever so much Freddy for bringing this up. Yes, I'd love to be your friend. Hoorah for crossdressers!

[Wildaboutheels]

Obviously.

The very fact that the vast majority of CDers are males simply confirms the MAIN "reason" for all CDers. For almost every "label" here the VISUAL aspect is at least a big P A R T of the equation if not a huge part of it.

Men are simply BORN way more visually oriented than women because of tens of thousands of years of EVOLUTION. A man's most basic programming is to impregnate as many females as posssible, which gives him the best chance to pass on his DNA. [Doesn't mean all males are going to act on that drive.] We need to be able to "get ready" at a moments notice. Being extremely visually oriented is an elegantly simple solution. Hence all the porn and "skin" magazines for men as compared to women. Women simply do not provide a very large market because of their limited visual proclivities.

Women CAN'T be as visual men. [And most aren't.] If they could be as easily motivated for sex [per their vision] as men, there would be far greater risk of them becoming pregnant by a "wrong" guy which goes against THEIR most basic programming.

Looking at many of the threads here that always get the biggest reviews it becomes even clearer. Pantyhose, heels and undies are the biggest "items" discussed. All relatively simple, cheap and quick items to put on or take off. I am sure if stores were required to keep tack of all women's clothing sold to men, those 3 items would crush all others sales wise. Of course many women's items simply feel good, MIGHT fit better and might be practical for some things. [Pantyhose in the winter or for people that spend many hours on their feet on concrete]

Crossdressing [a very large "aspect" of it] is really not all that complicated IMO.

As far as what seems to be the majority here at these Forums? Sexual and/or gender identification clearly comes in dozens of flavors and variations. Makes perfect sense. Why should IT be any different than all the other aspects that make all of us truly unique.

[drushin703]

thanks for the post Frederique: I consider myself JUST a crossdresser. Not homosexual or transexual. Transgendered sounds too much like transexual so that is
not an umbrela I wish to get under. I fully understand it does cause fustigation when you choose sides , especially on this forum, and we have seen it happen so
many times before. Most here will agree (including you) that becoming a crossdresser = long arduous effort of severe disappointment. The end result, although
extremely gratifying, does not equal the the road traveled to get here.

OK, I dress as a woman. When I go out I dress as an erotic woman, tall heels, sheer pantyhose, the shortest skirts, makeup, perfume, the longest wigs.
I have futively tried to defend these acts and gestures on posts here long past and came across as only being too rigid. That was certainly not my intent.

My mother found seemen stains in her favorite girdle, told my dad and they both confronted me about it. What she didnt understand was that her favorite
girdle was also my favorite girdle. They told me how disappointed they were in me and asked me for some explanation. At age 13 was the first time I had
to explain to someone how I wasn't a homosexual but just enjoyed the feel of womens clothes. I wonder, is the answer to "are you just a crossdresser" again an exlanation of what someone is not.

[TGMarla]

Nice posting, Freddy.

Over the course of the years and years I have engaged in crossdressing, the majority of them included the inner war with myself over my gender identity. I reached the conclusion that I'm a crossdresser with some pronounced transexual tendencies. I say this because I know that had I been given the choice, I'd have opted to be female rather than male. Most of my life I've wished I could have lived my life as a woman. However, the transition/surgery route is one that I've never really wanted. And thankfully, that war is over. I struck a peace with myself and the life I have made.

I think it sucks that this community has this strange pecking order that causes some to look down on others as somehow inferior. It's nuts, if you ask me. Unlike our friend Wildaboutheels, who simply enjoys wearing feminine attire from time to time, when I crossdress I engage in female emulation, where I'm dressed head to toes in women's clothing, don prosthetics to enhance the image, wear a wig, and apply makeup to "complete" the look. In essence, I try to look like a natal female as much as I am able, and part of the reason is that there is a part of me that desperately wishes I was a woman to begin with. There is this unspoken opinion that floats about in our community that suggests that unless you follow through on such feelings, and go ahead with transition and SRS, that you are somehow a lesser being. If you'd like a taste of this condescending attitude, you can visit our Transexual forum from time to time. It's not always like that, but it's definitely there. Unless you engage in this final act of desperation, you aren't worthy of opinions that matter in the least to the community at large.

I'm calling hogwash on that one.

I'm relieved that my inner war is over, that I've called a truce with myself that doesn't include transition.

I'm grateful to be "just a crossdresser".



Of the entire CD/TG community, only a very small percentage

[Ms Mira]

1) The more I learn about myself, the more it seems like the lines between being CD / TG / TV / TS become blurrier. Though I could say the same about any label. The lesson to me is that people are so multi-dimensional that labels never really suffice in describing them. *shrug* People get too caught up in labels.

2) It's funny: you would think that whatever kind of trans-person you are, that your experiences would make you very welcoming and open-minded of others. Instead, and this seems to be a common behavior amongst ALL people, it seems like even trans-people would often rather focus on being owners of their own little spaces, and being like "MINE. If you want to play here, you have to play by my rules!" It's a cycle: the world at large hasn't made it's own space welcoming to them so they claim their own space and do the same thing. I guess it's hard to be surprised: ownership is one of the pillars of our society. But, it is disappointing.

[Rondawants]

I too just crossdress. It has lead me to a much closer relationship with my SO! We are man and wife and two girls who are best friends! It's a very nice place to be! Loves Ronda!

[Kate Simmons]

Well Freddy, I'm JUST a person who happens to like to crossdress sometimes. The clothing is optional really. I like others for who they are as people and accept them as being who they say they are. There are no hierarchies in my world Hon, JUST people who are my friends.:battingeyelashes::)

[kimdl93]

Isn't it nice when a post generates so much interest!

Really, the conflict over lables isnt so much a disagreement over who is in or who is out based on some objective criteria, but rather conflicting self-definitions. Its a habit to use terms like CD, TG, and TS as though they have some concrete meaning that is agreed upon by all. They don't. An apple to me, may be a pomme to someone else. We may be referring to the same object or experience but the words that enable communication inevitably also carry different meanings to others.

So when I think of or use the term Cross dressing, I mean a behavior. Specifically, putting on women's garments because they are women's garments. When I used the term Transgender,I'm referring to a broad spectrum of behaviors and also a spectrum of self perceptions about ones gender. In my set of definitions, CDing falls under that TG umbrella if it reflects something of the individual's perceptions of his/her gender identity.

My chosen definitions may fit well with some other people. When they do, we speak a common language and can easily communicate about our lives, interests or problems. When the definitions are different, misunderstandings and sometimes conflicts can and often do occur. It's particularly difficult when individuals tend towards absolutes in their thinking. CDing (or TGor TS)for some, must mean exactly one thing, with no allowance for others definitions.

But the key thing For me is that I am willing to acknowledge that my definitions may not be shared by others. So I'm perfectly willing to accept the notion that CDing can be a behavior outside the TG tent...related only by the garments for which we share a common attraction. Certainly, there's no judgement, no hierarchy or rank that places CD, TS or TG above one or the other.

I'm perfectly happy accept Freddy's definition of CDing. It allows for a big tent and the opportunity to meet and share with a fascinating assortment of people.

[Georgia_Maine]

Human beings have a seeming need to put everything in a special box. Am I CD or TG? I honestly don't know and I really don't care! I could easily spend the rest of my life in male mode and I could just as easily spend the rest of my life in female mode. It really doesn't matter because either way I'm still me. If I were forced to choose one or the other, then I'd certainly miss the mode I didn't choose. I enjoy both of my personas.

Gigi

[Frédérique]

Crossdresser falls under the transgender umbrella.

Here’s a novel concept – transgender falls under the CROSSDRESSER umbrella, at least in regards to this site, where all variations of crossdressing are present and accounted for, from the guy who wears panties now and then to the post-SRS transsexual. There are many shades of grey in between, naturally, and no variation should be excluded due to intent…


The funny thing is that I have since learned that I am transgendered. Not only do I consider myself transgendered, but I take it a step further - I consider myself to be transsexual. I do believe there are differences between the TG, the TS within the TG, and the CDs. I also believe that these are issues that and differences that should be easily rectified among the groups between educated minds. There is too much at stake not to view it otherwise.

I call myself transgendered on occasion, if only to put my peers at ease, but darned if I don’t keep going back to my birth gender by way of outward appearance. Think of it as dressing up to go on a journey – for the crossdresser, it’s a round trip ticket, and for the TG, it’s supposed to be a one-way ticket. I think it’s a bit unfair to expect every male who dresses as a female to go ONE WAY and nothing else, as if the motto should be “Woman or bust!” Pardon my pun. Some of us are not equipped to tackle such a dramatic change of scenery, preferring to use emulation and a willful suspension of disbelief as a tactile tranquilizer. I must go back, for I am a male – it’s a pity, but that’s how it is…
:sad:


I see CD's as transgendered (umbrella) as distant cousins where we share the same blood but yet are very different and this can be measured in pain. Most who crossdress do not suffer torments imposed internally but externally by others where with GID it is the pain of the internal made external so the pain comes from the opposite direction and so is different but with similarities.

I was going to say that transgendered individuals may have no “say” in their crossdressing – they MUST crossdress, since they become the other gender. I sometimes get the feeling that the TG, who is still technically a crossdresser, may not share the same euphoria about dressing that the newbie might feel. Deflation is a terrible thing, especially when support and understanding are needed in this increasingly intolerant world. Tell me, if a person is transgendered, are they crossdressing, or are they merely wearing the clothes their newly transformed gender WOULD wear, under the inevitable circumstances? I think this has been discussed already, but it may explain why a relatively new crossdresser would draw this response from a TG: “What are you going to DO with it?” Do you have to do anything with it? Let’s just dress and be happy…


I personally have never met a transsexual who did not start out crossdressing and I have met a number who at first identified as someone who crossdressed without any of the gender identity problems but the crossdressing in time pealed back deeper truths that had been buried usually from social conditioning intersecting with the survival instincts and desire for love.

And there are many homosexual males who start out crossdressing in an attempt to express themselves – if there is this purported “person inside,” the easiest way to free him/her is by wearing your inside out. But, gay connotations aside, I must say that MtF crossdressing has altered my personality in profound ways, indeed it is part and parcel of my psychological makeup (pun intended). In my case, something had to be expressed, but I have no desire to stay on the other side of the fence, or the yawning gender chasm, just because some may feel that all crossdressers are transgendered, and it (CD’ing) must go in ONE direction only…


This has the potential to become a flame war, a very similar set of threads on the TS side did just that.

It’s too hot for a flame war, and, in any event, that was not my intention. It’s nice to be thought of (or seen) as transgendered, but I’m just a typical MtF crossdresser who ferries back and forth across the River Queer. Where's my paddle? I merely wish to support those who crossdress for pleasure, no questions asked, and no gender proclivities attached. Judging by the large number of MtF participants (and lurkers) here, I would say that many of us are one thing and not the other, same as it always was, before this TG terminology came along to neatly (and unfairly) gather us under one roof…

I have many TG friends around here, and all of them openly support ALL crossdressers – this is how it should be, and it’s a beautiful thing to behold! Others are not quite so forthcoming. Crossdressing may mean something, or it may not, and it may be leading somewhere, or it may not, but I think there is room for us all under this imaginary “umbrella” everyone keeps talking about…
:straightface:

[StacyPump]

Thank you for your thoughtful, and thought-provoking post, Frederique. I, too, am a crossdresser. I do not desire to transition, or present myself as female all of the time. I simply like to dress up as a woman, suspend my disbelief for a while, and enjoy myself.

I am really glad that you raised the point about sometimes feeling looked down upon, within this forum, for being "just a crossdresser". There have been a few times when I have read a particularly harsh post, and wanted to reply with something like, "Wow! I have been struggling with feelings of guilt and shame my entire life because I like to crossdress. I never imagined that I would feel MORE shame over crossedressing after reading posts on a website called 'CROSSDRESSERS.COM'! Can't we all just get along?"

I decided not to post that, because I didn't want to start a flame war. And I hope this thread does not degenerate into one.

I am also glad to see the kind reponses of so many thoughtful others on this subject. It confirms the answer for the question: Yes, we can!

Anyway, I just wanted you to know that you are not alone, and that I have felt the same way.

Kind regards,
StacyP

[suchacutie]

Hi Frederique! I love your posts! I also love the last paragraph of your last post:

I have many TG friends around here, and all of them openly support ALL crossdressers – this is how it should be, and it’s a beautiful thing to behold! Others are not quite so forthcoming. Crossdressing may mean something, or it may not, and it may be leading somewhere, or it may not, but I think there is room for us all under this imaginary “umbrella” everyone keeps talking about…

There are agressive individuals in all areas of life. My wife and I belong to a very large forum of knitters and crochetters, and on that forum the crochetters (me among them) are looked upon as second-class citizens in many ways, bizarre as that may sound! But, I still find the site useful and interesting and enjoy the crochet forums and don't worry about the rest.

The same is true here, I think. Some get hung up on the labels and the "pink fog" excitement of wanting everyone "out there" in some public way. Some are sure that everyone would be living 24/7 if they only had the backbone to do so.

The reality is that we aren't all cookie-cutter models of each other. In fact, if there was a group that displays a tremendously wide spectrum of possibilities it's us!!! So, when someone tells you that you are somehow JUST something, please find it humerous and get a good laugh from it. You are a human being, and what you do and how you do it is important to you, and is JUST RIGHT for you!

All my best,
tina

[Sallee]

I have to agree I am "just a crossdresser". Have no desire to get srs or be full time. Just looking to have fun in the gender world.
Wish I knew why it was fun but it is Then again I don't know why a lot of things are fun but they are so I accept them

[Chickhe]

To me crossdressing is an activity anyone can do (like speaking, brushing your teeth, cutting wood)... its more inclusive. Being transgendered is more like you associate with a group...like, I'm a politician, or I'm a dentist, or I'm a carpenter. You have to convince yourself and live by it. Either is okay, but its easier to belong to a photo club when anyone can join, even if you are not a photographer.

[cindybabe]

Just another crossdressers here with know desire to go fulltime

[kelliT]

Love you, Frédérique
Started to write, but way too much and not enough time.
Thank You
Thank You

I carry around 10 things you don't know about CDs
on my phone if that tells you anything. My personal mantra.
thank you

[VanessaJCD]

Wonderful post Frederique! I'm just a person who likes to dress once in a while and enjoy the makeup, hair and clothes. But I haven't been subject to some of the nastiness you have. I've seen some of these posts (because you are appointment reading for me..:)) and can't understand the the motivation behind some of these posts..

Keep writing - some of us truly enjoy your prose!! You are where you belong...

[Marleena]

We need to support each other no matter what label is placed on us.

In the end we all go to the same big gig in the sky.

[RADER]

I like to wear women's clothes, but I have no desire to be a woman, nor to have a sexual relationship with any men. So I guess I'm plain old vanilla too.

I can say "DITTO" Now what do want to call me, Call me anything you want to.
Rader

[Polly R]

Hi Fredierique,

Yep, yet another plain old vanilla. Like most who've replied so far, I too am just a CDer who has no interest in transitioning. I too am married with a supportive wife and definitely have no sexual interest in men. I have a manly side that loves to do manly things - I work in and enjoy heavy engineering - playing with steam locos and old steam boats is a hobby but I just have this feminine side that loves to get dressed up periodically and look and feel as pretty as I can at my age.

I agree that sometimes the TS's try to knock us down - the two TG groups I've visited in the UK seem to end up being taken over by the TS's who then give us a hard time insisting that we're just playing at it. The usual thing they say to us is, 'give it time, the only difference between a CD and a TS is time...' I DON'T agree!! A lot of us are just CDers, plain and simple..!

xx Polly

[Foxglove]

Sad to say, Freddy, I think establishing hierarchies is inevitable, given the way people are made. Especially in our case: when you're absolutely at the bottom of the social heap, there's bound to be a mad scramble to see who's going to be at the top of the bottom.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Gillian Gigs]

Bravo, Freddy, I agree there is nothing wrong with being a crossdresser with no desires to go into SRS. I too am a happily married "man" who happens to have a taste for wearing womens clothes. Like I saw on another post some like to wear cowboy boots and hats, well I like to wear lingerie and skirts. Maybe some people see something that I don't see, but my body parts are my own and I will keep them and wrap them in the clothing of my choice.

[EllieOPKS]

Great thread! Frederique, you are a mind reader. I have often had the same thoughts as to why is it called Crossdressers.com yet caters to the transgendered community as well. - DO NOT FIRE SALVO'S EXPLAINING WHY! Don't have anything against either and I really don't care. I belong to a fishing forum as well and there is no discussions about hunting on that forum. I am solely a cross dresser.

[Veronica27]

In the past I have been attacked by some, and defended by others for expressing my viewpoints on the origin, meaning and relevance of the term transgender. I stayed away from this forum for several years because of the viciousness of some of the attacks. Since returning, I have detected a tendency for the current posters to be far more accepting of diverse opinions on this subject.

I consider myself to be a crossdresser, because it describes what I enjoy doing, and is unambiguous. I am a man who sometimes wears women's clothing. I do not consider myself to be transgendered because I have no confusion about which sex I am, and feel no desire to actually be a woman, despite the enjoyment I derive from portraying one on occasion. My non-use of the term trangender to describe myself also involves what I perceive to be some grammatical inaccuracies in the term. As you pointed out, "trans" refers to a one way trip, such as when used in the word transport. We transport goods from point a to point b. Cross refers more to a two way trip, or both directions, or back and forth as used in the term crosswalk. Gender, is primarily a grammatical term which means the "class" or type of a word. Its most common use is in the linking of words as being appropriate to one or the other of the sexes. In recent decades, a degree of linguistic laziness has led to the substituting of the word gender for the more accurate word sex in many contexts.

Regardless of the meaning and origin of the term gender, it is somewhat nebulous, being whatever a particular individual, group or society deems it to be at any point in time. What is considered masculine or feminine is largely at the whim of society, influenced by some natural forces. As individuals, we all possess qualities that could be considered to be at either end of the gender spectrum, and when I crossdress, I am probably tapping into some of those qualities that might be viewed as feminine. However, I am just being me, and not suppressing a part of me to satisfy the demands of society.

All of this is my opinion, and others are entitled to their own viewpoint as to whether or not they are transgendered. What I don't agree with is the insistence by some that because I crossdress I fall under an umbrella of TG. As Freddie says, why not an umbrella of CD? CD describes what I do, while TG attempts to describe what I am, but that is a very inexact term to use in such a manner to label me for life.

Veronica

[FeliciaCDSNJ]

Well I tend to identify more with transgender but with my current situation crossdresser is fine ^_^

[Gaby2]

Nice one, Freddy! Thanks!
Absorbing comments, just like your responses...
I'm a CDer.... I'm male and want to remain so... but maybe I'm transsexual and havn't ealised it yet...
I'm just glad I've lived half my life, am enjoying it...
and I am looking forward to an uncertain future
:hugs:Gaby

[sissystephanie]

I have been a crossdresser longer than many of you have been alive, since I have been a crossdresser since age 6 and am now 80! I have never wanted to actually be a woman, or even to perform sexually as one. I am a man and proud of it! But I do like to wear feminine things, from the skin out. I wear panties and a bra almost every day, and usually a skirt and top or a dress some part of the day. My late wife knew that I did this and had no problem with it. So my answer is; YES, I AM A CROSSDRESSER and nothing further!

[carhill2mn]

I am not a fan of the words "just a crossdresser" as I interpret them to imply that we who identify as crossdressers are not quite at the same level as others. Even the term "crossdresser" covers a wide range of activities. Some of us totally present as women while others are happy with partially dressing to some degree. Some "underdress" only; some are fetishists.

I have wondered a bit lately about this and other sites with "crossdesser" in their name. I do not know of any that restrict membership to "just crossdressers". I think that the important issue is that we all are respectful of others, regardless of how they see themselves or we see ourselves.

[Tess]

Loved your post Freddy and agree 100%. Another crossdresser here and have often wondered if crossdressers.com was originally crossdressing focused rather than on gender identity issues. As a crossdresser I'm interested in the former and bored by the later so I often have to take a break from this forum because it seems dominated by TG and TS members. Keep posting your interesting, amusing, and thoughtful essays.

[Jacqueline Winona]

I'm one as well, Freddy. I'm really not into separating ourselves, so i got very little problem with the TS, TG< GG, DQ, Fetishists, etc. who want to post here, they are mostly all good people. Occasionally some threads get hijacked, or we see overbearing activity from a few, and I do get bored sometimes when the topics are repetitive or about issues I have no interest in, but it's still all good.

[PretzelGirl]

Now I thought you were a Transvestite Freddy. :-)

I am with Carole in that saying "just" implies lesser than something else. So I don't like to think of myself as ever being "just". But what am I? Maybe by the time I kick the bucket I will know. This is still a journey for me. My thoughts go back and forth. All I can say for now is that I am "just" being me. :-)

[DW]

Hi All. Another"crossdresser" here. I have no desire to have surgery or pass as female fulltime. That said, I do LOVE being out and about in femme attire. I feel that we all have our similarities, and differences, same as EVERYBODY else!
We are ALL part of the human race , so why give a F*** about the little differences or the labels ?

[NathalieX66]

Well I tend to identify more with transgender but with my current situation crossdresser is fine ^_^

Ditto for the first part, but the second part is eroding away.....for me anyway. I've already done a year and a half worth of beard removal (electrolysis & laser) so i can be more passable when out in public, and now my hair is shoulder legnth.

It's one thing to put on a wig and a dress & heels, and dress up as a woman, but once your daily grooming habits completely encompass every and all female esthetics, i.e. long hair, pierced ears, no facial hair, pedicures, shaved legs, the whole nine yards 24/7/365, and utilizing a wardrobe that sees daylight/ightlife beyond your front door, it becomes a part of you, or in some cases all of you.

[Ria]

Put me down for "Crossdresser"... I love being a guy, father and husband. I just have a feminine side that needs some expression. I love women's fashion and their choices for clothing... I'm envious of them!

[Jason+]

Having been both defended and vilified for my particular niche on the spectrum I am not convinced that I don't fall a notch or two shy of "just a crossdresser." I suspect the Jonestown Passing Brigade is still less than pleased with me. Thankfully a number of the responses to the thread have reminded me why I continue to come here. The vocal minority will always be here and be loud but increasingly more often there are people I read about who think closer to how I do.


I'm just a crossdresser. I can't say I feel like the opposite gender. I just believe I can wear any piece of fabric I damn well please. Weather it's a skirt or jeans.

And I will thank them not to expect that simply because that piece of fabric has only one hole for legs that I must also necessarily think look and act like their concept of what a wearer of single-holed fabric pieces must be!




The clothes can be used as tools for powerful self exploration or they can be nothing but clothes and I have a bearded friend who does nothing to feminize his appearance but likes to wear a dress now and than because it is pretty and he likes pretty things.



That is a man who I would happily have a cup of coffee with!




I've mentioned in previous posts that because my wife loves my facial hair and doesn't want me to shave it off, I tend to go out in public (far away from home) looking like a guy in women's clothes. This does seem to be heavily frowned upon in this forum, even though I dress perfectly sensibly and am well-groomed. I've never had any problems from the general public whilst being out and about dressed. I often read makeup tips and look at wigs and forms and am really excited to try it all one day. I can't wait to primp and preen in front of a mirror in a taffeta dress, but in the meantime I still feel the need to go out and be a plain old crossdresser in everyday womenswear: not because I want to shock or offend, but because it's simply a huge part of who I am. It's intrinsic to me, and just because I don't want to become a woman, it doesn't mean that I don't want or need support, or that I belong here any less.

I believe that in going out as a guy in non-outrageous women's clothes and being well-mannered, polite and well-behaved, I am doing our community some good; if we all went out en-femme looking gorgeous and "passing", no-one outside of sites like this would be any the wiser, and society would remain ignorant of our numbers, or maybe of even our existence. I think it does society good to see a man who's not afraid to wear something smart but unexpected - keeps society on its toes, so to speak. And the more it happens, the more people encounter a crossdresser who is obviously as sane as they are, the more accepting people will become.



I prefer my face to be shaved personally but have no interest in wigs or forms. I have encountered far more resistance and some downright nastiness here in the digital world than I ever have out and about in the actual world.

I will concede an outfit or two that needed improvement and I work on those. Like you I prefer to be well mannered, polite and at least modestly covered (even if we disagree on style.) Can someone please explain with substance how that harms "our community" more than only allowing the truly small minority out who pass?




I am really glad that you raised the point about sometimes feeling looked down upon, within this forum, for being "just a crossdresser". There have been a few times when I have read a particularly harsh post, and wanted to reply with something like, "Wow! I have been struggling with feelings of guilt and shame my entire life because I like to crossdress. I never imagined that I would feel MORE shame over crossedressing after reading posts on a website called 'CROSSDRESSERS.COM'! Can't we all just get along?"

I decided not to post that, because I didn't want to start a flame war. And I hope this thread does not degenerate into one.



It's amazing how a group of people you actually think should be your peers can affect how you feel about yourself as opposed the general public reactions.


In the past I have been attacked by some, and defended by others for expressing my viewpoints on the origin, meaning and relevance of the term transgender. I stayed away from this forum for several years because of the viciousness of some of the attacks. Since returning, I have detected a tendency for the current posters to be far more accepting of diverse opinions on this subject.



If I stay long enough there just might be others like me or at least close enough that being true to me won't pull them down and I can simply be what I am; a man, almost just a cross dresser.

[busker]

Ditto for the first part, but the second part is eroding away.....for me anyway. I've already done a year and a half worth of beard removal (electrolysis & laser) so i can be more passable when out in public, and now my hair is shoulder legnth.

It's one thing to put on a wig and a dress & heels, and dress up as a woman, but once your daily grooming habits completely encompass every and all female esthetics, i.e. long hair, pierced ears, no facial hair, pedicures, shaved legs, the whole nine yards 24/7/365, and utilizing a wardrobe that sees daylight/ightlife beyond your front door, it becomes a part of you, or in some cases all of you.

I wouldn't suggest that you ever come to California because a lot of women don't fit this description and would break your heart.
I think the forum readers/posters might enjoy reading this philosophical article published in 1974 titled "What's it like to be a bat"?
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=what%20is%20it%20like%20to%20be%20a%20bat%20nage l%20pdf&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Forganizations.utep.edu%2Fportals% 2F1475%2Fnagel_bat.pdf&ei=qDLlT6CcOafE2gXSlO2oDA&usg=AFQjCNEZDF0O3imthBISKFKJEssRh0Elyg&cad=rja

The link opens a pdf of the article which is about 6 pages sans footnotes
You can substitute CD or TS or TG for the word bat, and I think the article will work. Being passable (in your subjective eyes) is not the same a being a woman (seen THROUGH her eyes). Women don't ever think about being "passable" and probably never think about being women. I'm not trying to be rude here, I just think that exterior things have a very definite limit.

[Tasha McIntyre]

I, like so many, define myself as crossdresser.

When I joined here a few years ago I didn't really have a clue where I fell in the CD spectrum. I just liked to wear skirts or dresses and thought I couldn't possibly be the only one in the world like this. The more I read, posted and asked questions the more I discovered about myself and "our world". I pushed beyond anything I thought I could or would do. I met and shared stories with other CDers. I bought shapewear, wigs and make up, and then hit the busy shopping malls and experienced the smiles and stares of a thousand spectators.

All the while, I remained simply a "crossdresser".

I know this now because no matter how many dresses wear, or however convincing my overall presentation is, I have never felt trapped in the wrong body, or have any desire whatsoever to have surgery. In fact I sometimes feel like a bit of a fraud when I log on to crossdressers.com.....probably unwarranted!

Sorry if I overdid the response, I just got onto a train of thought and kept on typing :)

[prene]

I hate labels.
But yes I am a cross dresser.
When I crossdress I fantasize that I am a woman and try to transform my body with attached forms, corset and control top panties to hide all signs of my male hood.
I do have a therapist and have been trying to figure myself out. LOL

If I could take a pill an be female ... would I.
Most likely yes.
I have been thinking about starting hrt.
I do love women and would love a gf who is accepting.

Who knows .... I guess I am a cross dresser PLUS. LOL

[Raychel]

Just a crossdresser here as well, I am 100% male, except for the fact that I like to wear womens clothes occasionally. And even when I do wear womens clothes, I don't do makeup or a wig. I do owna wig, but never wear it.

[Kathy Smith]

Yet another wonderful piece from you, Freddy!

I have the same feelings as you. I'm a part-time crossdresser and proud of it! Like you, I don't have any urges to become feminine. It's something that's so foreign to my character that I can't imagine it. I can look at myself in a mirror and see a blank canvas ready for painting with a feminine image, not a male image that I dislike. That "painting" process is, in itself, immensely pleasurable. I can spend ages getting that image to look believable, with clothes, makeup & wigs - but it will never be a female character looking back at me; I know that and it doesn't trouble me in the least. That character will look and act as feminine as I can possibly manage though.

Now, if that lot makes some people want to label me as TG then that's fine with me if it makes them happy, although it isn't a label that I would use myself. I hate the use of labels where there can be any doubt whatsoever. I label myself as MtoF part-time crossdresser because that is exactly what I see myself as.

Strangely enough, I've made the opposite journey to you - from here to Rose's Forum! I still love this board but, as I'm in the UK, Rose's is far more relevant to me in a lot of ways. I make my position clear on there and, so far at least, I've not had any problems with other members "looking down" on me as a "mere" crossdresser. (I love the Chat Room on there in an evening!)

If you feel as if you would like to PM me about these points then please do so.

[Dana_cd]

I am a crossdresser as well, like being who I am both as male and female,, I do have bi tendencies as well only when dressed,,,but I JUST HAVE TO BE WHO I AM,,,(just me)

[Frédérique]

In the end we all go to the same big gig in the sky.

In the immortal words of a certain TG individual, “What are you going to do when you get there?” More importantly, what do I wear for the final judgment? :idontknow:


I am not a fan of the words "just a crossdresser" as I interpret them to imply that we who identify as crossdressers are not quite at the same level as others. Even the term "crossdresser" covers a wide range of activities. Some of us totally present as women while others are happy with partially dressing to some degree. Some "underdress" only; some are fetishists.

All things being equal, as they should be, if we are on a discussion forum for crossdressers we should tolerate all crossdressers. Some love doing it, some are ambivalent about doing it, some are worried about doing it, and some would rather not be doing it, “it” being crossdressing. I take issue when certain individuals knock down those who LOVE to crossdress – I think there is room for some enthusiasm around here, especially for those who are looking to verify their fragile CD existence in some way. The pressures of the real world are certainly debilitating, but does happiness need to be crushed just because someone’s “take” on crossdressing differs markedly from others? I should explain…

Back in the day, I was crossdressing in a vacuum. I was happy. I’m STILL happy. Naturally, I was wondering if there were others like me – wouldn’t it be fun to meet other crossdressers and share some of this abundant joy one can feel through such simple means? Accordingly, I searched for other crossdressers – since they are largely hidden within society (those who emulate, I mean, and not those who imitate), it was a happy day when I discovered CD discussion forums like this one. I could finally “meet” other crossdressers! Once I joined, I started gushing like a newbie, hoping to FINALLY make a connection with my invisible peers…

I did, of course, but it took time. My initial forays into the CD community were awkward and unfulfilling. I began to wonder if anyone felt the same joy, the same magic, which I did each and every time I dress. The CD majority on these boards would either scoff at me or ignore me out of hand – who does she think SHE is, anyway? I got depressed. I felt lonely again. But, one day, a crossdresser did reach out to me, responding to a description of a pretty dress I saw. Apparently I was trolling and didn’t know it! My faith in beauty (and magic) thus restored, I kept posting, gradually finding the type of crossdressers I was looking for. Unfortunately, they come and go, while the ambivalent types hang on, either hurting or confusing newbies who deserve better. I know there are crossdressers out there who dress up because they LIKE to – it makes them happy, and they wish to share this blessed happiness that enriches their lives. Crossdressing can be very serious business, to be sure, but I’m just pleading for some room, or TOLERANCE, for those who crossdress to be happy. Can I get an AMEN, dear sisters?

I met a REALLY beautiful CD girl here nearly a year ago, but she has disappeared. We had a great time “talking” about the sheer joy of crossdressing. That was worth waiting for, but she is just a memory…
:sad:


Now I thought you were a Transvestite Freddy. :-)

Well spotted! For purposes of this discussion, as outlined in the OP, I decided to call myself a crossdresser rather than a transvestite – we’ve had enough discussion about the latter term, haven’t we? I have a waist-defining black belt in MtF crossdressing, which makes me a tranny…
:battingeyelashes:

[Rebecca Star]

I cross dress only, I am married and have a supporting wife. I enjoy being a genetic male but I have a fem, side too. I love the way a woman looks and sometimes I like to look and feel like I am one of them. It make me feel complete, the clothes are liberating and feel sexy (to me). When I was younger it did cause me to have to question myself though, but I came to accept myself the way I am. Just a lady inside sometimes.

Couldn't say it any better myself Jolene.
So, if it's ok with you, I'm going to use your words and put my hand up too

:)

[Karinsamatha]

Hi Freddy I am so sorry that you feel the way you do. I am Trans gendered. But would never ever say I am better or worse then any one else here. I as a human being have no rite to pass judgment on anyone else, and I don't .
I have been evolving since I joined a number of years ago. I look forward to reading your insights, and indeed feel privileged to read them.

[toni_62]

I'm new here and was a little confused myself when I saw TG's were on here when the masthead says Crossdressers. I'm strictly a CD. I like playing the role of a woman when it suits me. I enjoy pretending to be a woman. I envy a certain type of woman and when I'm in the mood I can be kind of what I envy. I like being able to shift between genders in my head and with my outward appearence.

I sure don't claim to be of the mindset of TG's although I do have minor gender identity issues. Deep down I think all crossdressers do to a certain degree. I have taken many gender identity test. Some very scientific others not so much. I tend to fall in between or slightly more female than male. My physical features are not very masculine. I'm tall skinny and my facial features are not at all masculine.

[Kathy Smith]

... this abundant joy one can feel through such simple means.

You couldn't describe crossdressing any better. :)


Crossdressing can be very serious business, to be sure, but I’m just pleading for some room, or TOLERANCE, for those who crossdress to be happy. Can I get an AMEN, dear sisters?

:yt: Too right you can, Freddy - AMEN!

[LisaMallon]

I don't think anyone is 'just' anything. Some of the nicest people I have met identify themselves as CD, I certainly don't think they are 'just' something.

I just think they are people who have found a balance in their life that works for them. And good on them.

As a nascent TS I think of you as my sisters and cousins. I will always have more in common with all of you than any others.

[Dawna Ellen Bays]

I'm a crossdresser. End of story. I don't find the term "transvestite" to be a "dirty word." I don't get the opportunity to dress often, and I'm fine with that. I'm not that great at it, either. I still love doing it, because it's a part of who I am, and as such, I wouldn't change a thing. I love being male, but there are times where I just want to be done up in head-to-toe in in as much feminine finery as possible (which is funny because my male side HATES to get dressed in anything but casual men's wear).

If who I am is a problem for some people on the board, well, they're free to put me on their "blocked" list. I have a bunch of friends here who check in on a regular basis, so I don't CARE if I'm "looked down upon" because I don't have to suffer the same feelings as those who are imprisoned by being born in the wrong gender (and I believe it truly is imprisonment). I look at us CDs as a separate area from those who are "truly" transgendered, and there's room for all of us! :)


I'm new here and was a little confused myself when I saw TG's were on here when the masthead says Crossdressers. I'm strictly a CD. I like playing the role of a woman when it suits me. I enjoy pretending to be a woman. I envy a certain type of woman and when I'm in the mood I can be kind of what I envy. I like being able to shift between genders in my head and with my outward appearence.

Well said...simply agreeing with this comment almost negates my need to chime in on this thread! :heehee:

[christiecd]

I will offically throw my wig in the ring.
I am a crosdresser. Period. I don't want to transition, I don't want to dress full time, I don't underdress, I don't even want to go outside in anything but my drab clothes.

I do like the idea of going out while dressed (though I've never done it yet) and I would say the above quote describes me fairly accurately.

[flatlander_48]

I am a bisexual male who crossdresses. I would have to say that I am not just a crossdresser. I underdress below the waist about 90% of the time and about 20% of the time above the waist. In 10 years, I have gone out completely dressed once. Not saying that I am opposed to it, but it is difficult to get all of the circumstances to happen coincidently. However, I have never felt that I am in the wrong body. I consider myself to be male with some extra facets to my personality and psychological makeup. Although opinions are always subject to change, at this point I don't consider myself to be transgendered and I'm not looking to transitioning.

[Ressie]

I wish I had time to read all of the responses. I'm pretty much a crossdresser that has progressed somewhat in the last couple of years. I've just bought a lot more clothes in that time period, because I've lived alone.

I don't have a posting style that challenges others to argue with me, so I haven't had any altercations with anyone so far. I think I have a small percentage of more than crossdressing within myself, but I don't have the urge to dress in public or anything.

[MelanieB]

Frédérique, in any group of people you will have some that are obnoxious, opinionated, blunt, and/or overly competitive. You are under no obligation to pay attention to them. The vast majority of people here are friendly and supportive of all. Concentrate on the good, ignore the bad.

Im still fairly new to this forum and so far have only found the good and not yet stumbled into the sh*te side of peoples nastiness

Think Eryn's view here sums my feelings up in a nutshell

[Curelle05]

I am not JUST a crossdresser. Oh, I am a crossdresser, but I am not JUST a crossdresser. Would you say that you are SIMPLY a crossdresser or ONLY a crossdresser? That is how the word JUST is being used on this thread. It is not easy being a crossdresser. Let us not diminish ourselves.

[MelanieB]

Damn!!!

I had a whole bunch of labels on my lap just now

One of my kittens jumped on me and knocked them all on the floor

I've picked them up and it looks like I'm now a 2lb bag of carrots

Oh well, best get on with it

[EllieOPKS]

I wish I had time to read all of the responses. I'm pretty much a crossdresser that has progressed somewhat in the last couple of years. I've just bought a lot more clothes in that time period, because I've lived alone.

I don't have a posting style that challenges others to argue with me, so I haven't had any altercations with anyone so far. I think I have a small percentage of more than crossdressing within myself, but I don't have the urge to dress in public or anything.

Dee - I don't think I like your tone lady :/

[Sarasometimes]

I think by your definition I'm just a crossdresser. But why do we need labels? We each are somewhere along the gender continuum? I love to do really macho activities but I also like to wear dresses and get facials, even in guy mode.
Frederique, I usually don't agree with you, but this post has some true merit. Thanks for posting.

P.S. Who is this guy Pablo? Is he just a crossdresser? Just kidding. But did he only produce a certain type of art? Did he ever stray? This is why labels cuase issues but most of us want to use labels for clarity in many things we do.

[Thera Home]

Frédérique, in any group of people you will have some that are obnoxious, opinionated, blunt, and/or overly competitive.

Is this not what happens when beauty becomes an overly additive pink fog? I seem to see all around not just here. Competition abounds everywhere. There are one's that really struggle though, and any support we provide or receive is always appreciated in the realm of crossdressing.

Thera

[whowhatwhen]

Time will tell, but for now I'm rooting for being just a bi/gay crossdresser.

Let's all just be friends and hug cute spiders.
:)

[Ressie]

Dee - I don't think I like your tone lady :/

I meant to say I haven't had any alterations with anyone. If I could try on one of your skirts, an alteration may be in order :)

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I can’t (or shouldn’t) really be on that other site. Why? Well, I’m not transgendered, am I? I’m just a crossdresser...

Like some others, I dislike that "just a crossdresser" terminology. I am surprised you're using it, because we as people are much to complext to be defined by a single word.


I’m a male that likes to wear women’s (or girl’s) clothing – that makes me a crossdresser, specifically a MtF crossdresser.

Yes, you crossdress. But crossdressing is what you DO. It's more akin to a symptom of something else.


I have no desire to be a woman, and I have no desire to live my life AS a woman, 24/7, in lieu of SRS. Calling me transgendered is like calling Pablo Picasso a surrealistLet me tell you, I get confused when transgendered individuals say I’m transgendered just because I crossdress...

Now hold on here, you seem to be confusing the term transgendered with transsexual. While there are some TS's out there who use transgendered when they mean TS for various reasons (we call that frame drag on a another board). transsexual is a subset of transgendered. In many, but not all cases, so is crossdressing. Just because you don't have the desire to transition, doesn't mean you aren't transgendered for have transgendered thoughts.


It was never clear who was who,

Oh that's pretty much par for the course since people DO change how they identify. It's like the classic joke: "What's the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual...about 3 years"


but there were times when it became obvious that “plain old” MtF crossdressers were far down on the pecking order...

Oh that's also pretty much standard, though some boards do crack down on pecking order stuff. It's also evident in actual support groups, to a certain extent, which is one reason why it's on the Internet as well. Now I'm not for certain if you were ever a member of a support group, but from your writing, odds are you hadn't encountered it or read about it before.


I would write about crossdressing, and TG’s would “dress me down” in no uncertain terms.

Probably for the same reasons I have done so. You can be quite naive about trans-issues, and some of us can tell that in some ways you have some self-hatred about it...your overuse of the word "perversion" for example, but that's probably regional/cultural. Can't be helped really.


Was I blind?

No, but one might say you don't really get the realities of the transgender community, either online or off.


I now realize I was amongst a preponderance of TG’s, so this is why I felt isolated within my own sub-genre of gender exploration.

Why would that be a bad thing? Or are you saying TG's when you really mean TS's?


So, here I am, a few years later, and there are several transgendered individuals on my ignore list who either don’t like ME, don’t like what I represent, or don’t like what I write.

if they don't like you, why are YOU ignoring THEM. Do you not like what they write? Isn't that closer to the truth? You write something, they disagree, you only want to see things that agree with your own trans-mindset so you block them? Is that really all that productive or a good thing overall?


If this is supposed to be a discussion forum for crossdressers (see above), shouldn’t we (somehow) be allowed to discuss our crossdressing without incursions from the transgendered “community?”

In other words you're saying "I want to write without anyone challenging my viewpoint! I only want to see what I agree with!" Isn't that it? Because Crossdressers ARE a part of the transgender community, where you think so or not, because most crossdressers DO identify as being transgendered in some way or another. Now sure, most don't want to transition, but as I said, that doesn't mean they're not transgendered. There are "degrees" to it.



I’ve written a lot about this, mainly because I can’t help but notice it – there is a BIG difference between a male who dresses as a woman for tactile or sexual reasons, and a transgendered person who may be way more serious about what they do.

While the former are "technically" crossdresers, they are more akin to what used to be called "transvestic fetishists" Yes, they are different...for one they don't join support groups, and tend to not do so online either. We have a few here who are obviously focused on specific garments like pantyhose or leotards (in fact their usernames often focus on their specific kind of crossdressing), they are easily outnumbered by crossdressers that do acknowledge a transgender basis for their crossdressing. Putting it bluntly the former have less angst...they put on the leotards or pantyhose, get their jollies, take them off and they're fine. It's why so few of them join support groups, they don't need them, they do their thing and enjoy it. They have no need to express their thing outside their bedrooms.

As we both know, crossdressers who do identify as being part of the transgender umbrella, they have different needs. We both know that the vast majority of crossdressers on this board who go out in public are transgender identified. As I said, that doesn't mean they want to transition, but their mindset is different. they go out, join support groups and whatnot. Even their fashion concerns are different., they're the ones that talk about blending.


Some of the latter “dump” on the former to a certain degree...

It happens. Ive seen it happen the other way too, like what you're doing yourself in this thread now, but that's rarer.


I’ve seen it, time and time again, in this very MtF crossdressing section. If you crossdress, you MUST be transgendered, or on the road to being transgendered, or transgendered without knowing it.

I think you're mixing up the meanings of transgendered and transsexual again. Transgendered is an umbrella term that applys to lots of people...including crossdressers


To others, the act of crossdressing makes you transgendered.

That depends on motivation...that's the important thing.


Apparently I, the MtF crossdresser, have certain obligations to fulfill – I cannot let down the "community," even though the community looks down on me.

Define "let down the community" for me. While I think that crossdressers could do a touch more to support the community, I also know why they don't. Though it's a vicsous circle


I can’t just dress to please myself, stay within my zone of safety, and live in a fantasy world of my own making;

Sure you can, people do it all the time.


I MUST get out there and put myself in harm’s way like a true TG, come what may.

Now hold on there, I don't recall many people saying "must" I do know some, including myself, who say that it's a "good idea" and that transgendered folks tend to feel better when they do so and stop feeling so "cooped up in the closet", but the ultimate decision is up to you.


Like I said, there are many TG people on my ignore list, specifically the ones who scoff at “hobbyists” or part-timers like us.

I think non-fetishists who use the term "hobby" for their crossdressing are being disingenuous and are trying to minimize saying how much it means to them. Putting model ships in glass bottles is a hobby, "This thing of ours" is tied too closely to identity for most of us to be a mere "hobby". For the fetishists, it's more akin to a "sexual hobby" which isn't a bad thing.


Many times I’ve written something for US, namely the glorified panty fetishists,

Are you a panty fetishist? Do you identify as such? If you do, don't you think you should change your name to something like "sexaypnatywearer" and change your avatar to a lower torso of a woman wearing a thong panty or something? What do you wear, really? You seem to have implied that it's not just panties and is more akin to the "young girl in tights and maryjanes" sort of thing.


and it will generate a condescending post like this: “Frédérique is entitled to her opinion...”

Lots of people have opinions, that doesn't mean that they're "smart" opinoins, or well informed opinions or based on factually accurate information.


but isn’t it queer that I, a crossdresser through and through, has to be defended on a CD site?

where did you get the opinion that this is "just" a CD site? Didn't you notice the transition-centric sections? or even the FTM sections? Or the section just for SO's? You should know that taking things literally can be a bad thing on the internet.


I get the feeling I don’t belong here, but what else is new?

But why do you get the feeling? I don't understand, you crossdress (even if you don't identify as transgendered), you have friends here, why wouldn't you belong?


I feel like, just maybe, I am entitled and justified to be on a site like this.

Of course you do...but that doesn't mean that you won't have your ideas and philosophies challenged at times, or that people will agree with you 100% of the time.


As it is, I still have to fit my CD opinions in edge-wise and hope I’m connecting SOMEWHERE.

Well of course you're connecting with some people. From what I see, a certain kind of girly CDs who are apprehensive about going out and thinks they never will because of where they live/their wife/family/job/etc are your biggest fans.


Alas, many of my threads are peppered with comments I cannot see, let alone read, because someone who looks down on me is taking the time to do just that...

But if you can't see those comments, how do you know that's what they're doing. You're "assuming", and that's a bad thing. They could be actually agreeing with you on some of your points and you wouldn't know it.


Based on past experiences, I feel inferior.

There's an Eleanor Roosevelt quote: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." In other words, you are making yourself feel inferior.


MY very BEST friend is transgendered, or she is convinced she is, or others tell her she is.

If you mean Anne, say so, don't beat around the bush.


Subsequently, she is confused.

Less than she was, I think.


PS – I’m NOT trying to stir the pot,

I think you are, but perhaps not intentionally and more on a subconscious level.

Veronica

[Rebeccarabbit]

If only it was that simple No not just crossdressing may have started that way, the journey is long and constantly evolving. The spectrum of our community is huge and diverse. We are all together in this journey and at different stages.
This post is always going to be controversial. We are all sisters on lifes journey so please don't rock the boat

[Kaz]

Freddie, you continue to post the most amazing, thought provoking things! I love it. I am a bit like Anne in that I started here as a plain and simple crossdresser (although I had started shaving bits of my body), but then as all the conversations unfolded and I reflected and soul-searched, I realised that I am ME. I am not category defined by other people to suit some form of labelling. I have days/weeks when I wish to God I was a woman, and I have the same when I am glad I am not. This is why I wish i could pass... I'd like to be both please!

I often think... if I lived my life again and had been born a girl, would this have been better? Then I think of all the stuff I've done and the friends I've made and my three wonderful daughters, etc.. and I can't trade that in just because I would like to experience being a woman. So what the hell am I?

I guess I am sort of transgendered, but not prepared to transition (well not just yet) for lots of reasons, not least of which I do not want to go through all that pain, suffering and financial deficit to discover I'd got it wrong! So I am well down the pecking order on the spectrum and in the box labelled CDs as far as our self-styled 'superior' sisters are concerned (I guess they must DivaDs :))... I don't care what they think, I am ME... and that is OK by me!

[busker]

Freddie, you continue to post the most amazing, thought provoking things! I love it. I am a bit like Anne in that I started here as a plain and simple crossdresser (although I had started shaving bits of my body), but then as all the conversations unfolded and I reflected and soul-searched, I realised that I am ME. I am not category defined by other people to suit some form of labelling. I have days/weeks when I wish to God I was a woman, and I have the same when I am glad I am not. This is why I wish i could pass... I'd like to be both please!

I often think... if I lived my life again and had been born a girl, would this have been better? Then I think of all the stuff I've done and the friends I've made and my three wonderful daughters, etc.. and I can't trade that in just because I would like to experience being a woman. So what the hell am I?

I guess I am sort of transgendered, but not prepared to transition (well not just yet) for lots of reasons, not least of which I do not want to go through all that pain, suffering and financial deficit to discover I'd got it wrong! So I am well down the pecking order on the spectrum and in the box labelled CDs as far as our self-styled 'superior' sisters are concerned (I guess they must DivaDs :))... I don't care what they think, I am ME... and that is OK by me!

we hope that's not the NAUGHTY bits. LOL


in a word---COMPLEX

[Rebeccarabbit]

Its a good post........very flambe' LOL......its interesting !!!
But why do we want division in such a diverse spectrum, that includes EVERYONE our journeys are personal and unique, and the spectrum is vast with thousands of different flavours, sure be proud of who you are be unique !!!........there are many colours to the rainbow. Whether you wear just panties, or dress everyday, whether your going through full transformation, whether your hetro, bi-sexual, or gay.......We all dress up, and want to look feel female to differing degrees.

I started Cross Dressing many years ago......I have evolved, and changed, I am more advanced now. I dont actually need to dress up to feel female........its a very diverse community. We all need a network we all need support

[MelanieB]

Its a good post........very flambe' LOL......its interesting !!!
But why do we want division in such a diverse spectrum, that includes EVERYONE our journeys are personal and unique, and the spectrum is vast with thousands of different flavours, sure be proud of who you are be unique !!!........there are many colours to the rainbow.


I think the problem with the Spectrum analogy is that wherever an individual is perceived to be along it the darn thing shoots off at so many different tangents on a 360degree orbit that no two individuals are ever going to be in the same place

We are all unique and should just enjoy being ourselves and accept the whole colour pallette for what it is...beautiful.

[Frédérique]

Hi Freddy I am so sorry that you feel the way you do. I am Trans gendered. But would never ever say I am better or worse then any one else here. I as a human being have no rite to pass judgment on anyone else, and I don't .

I was NOT generalizing about all TG individuals – the OP was in regards to those who are, shall we say, unimpressed by fetishistic crossdressing, or crossdressing for tactile sensation, or crossdressing for relaxation, or crossdressing for sexual release. I suppose that if you’ve definitely gone over to the other side (in terms of gender), it stands to reason that you may feel like lobbing some debilitating wordy epithets back in the direction from whence you came. Some people – I repeat SOME people – seem to have this “I’m miserable – how DARE you have fun crossdressing!” attitude. They actually take the time to pop the little children’s joyful balloons, steal their candy, and act all important as some sort of established standard for how MtF crossdressing OUGHT to be. The message appears to be, “How can you expect to be taken seriously...” if you are not on the road to a transgendered existence. All I’m saying is that there is plenty of room for ALL approaches to crossdressing, MtF variety, and I find that this perpetual rubric from the wet blankets among us is very unhelpful, to say the least...

I can only report on what I see, i.e. what I read around here. It’s a fact that SOME TG individuals (and CD'ers as well) seem to delight in deflating hopes and dreams, or ruining the party that COULD be happening. BTW, “just a crossdresser” refers to someone who crossdresses (MtF, in this instance), and isn’t going anywhere with it, i.e. isn’t interested in burning bridges, because that eventuality simply isn’t in the cards, for one reason or another. You CAN dress for pleasure, and it IS a valid form of crossdressing. “Now I’m here, now I’m there...,” as Freddy Mercury once sang. Remember singing?


I guess I am sort of transgendered, but not prepared to transition (well not just yet) for lots of reasons, not least of which I do not want to go through all that pain, suffering and financial deficit to discover I'd got it wrong! So I am well down the pecking order on the spectrum and in the box labelled CDs as far as our self-styled 'superior' sisters are concerned (I guess they must DivaDs)... I don't care what they think, I am ME... and that is OK by me!

I do plenty of transitioning, but it’s back and forth, as the word “crossing” may indicate. As such I am at the bottom of the pecking order for MtF crossdressers. I never knew I was until I came here. Thanks, discussion forums! However, there are many kind, considerate, and compassionate “superior” sisters around here, and they have gently put their unseen arms around me, lifting me up as I endure the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune – since few people come right out and state “I’m THIS or THAT...” I am left to believe that our own community of people (who wear the “wrong” clothes) is, by necessity, a curious reality, an impossible probability, an ephemeral gathering of the faithful, a moveable feast, and an inexplicable human drama. When I DON’T walk out the front door as a proud TG individual, and declare my deviant nature to the world at large, I anger some in our community even as I align myself with others who believe in the power (and magic) of crossdressing. I DO care what others think, but if I don’t preserve ME at all costs I will lose the world – crossdressing is a selfish enterprise, to be sure, so I get a little miffed when someone tries to shake someone else’s foundation. You need to do what you can, under the circumstances, find your own comfort level, and live life accordingly...

PS -- I'm AMAZED at all the responses so far... :eek:

[Sara Jessica]

Like I said, there are many TG people on my ignore list, specifically the ones who scoff at “hobbyists” or part-timers like us. I don’t need this kind of abuse, especially on a site CALLED crossdressers.com.

It troubles me that anyone in an open discussion forum would make significant use of such an "ignore" feature, especially in your case where you take such care in crafting thoughtful threads that provoke responses, mostly positive but sometimes critical. It doesn't seem to make much sense by covering your eyes and ears, singing "la la la" as if other points of view neither exist nor are valid in your eyes. What kind of discussion is that???


But if you can't see those comments, how do you know that's what they're doing. You're "assuming", and that's a bad thing. They could be actually agreeing with you on some of your points and you wouldn't know it.

Don't worry Veronica, your posts won't be seen and thus the points you agreed with are moot.


The ignore list is a useful tool, allowing me to sidestep these line-by-line critical “reviews” from the usual suspects. I think the author of this unsolicited polemic neatly verifies what I said in my response to Karinsamantha’s post. Unfortunately, when others quote the offending text, I can still see it, thus negating my purposeful ignorance – this is a glitch, but I can’t do anything about it. I’ve learned to turn the other cheek, and I will continue to do so...

Again, disappointing.


PS -- I'm AMAZED at all the responses so far... :eek: [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

You clearly haven't seen all of them. :sad:

As for the original premise, you have put out there a "just crossdressers" angle with overt exclusion of other POV's which does nothing more than drive a wedge between those who are "just crossdressers" (your words, not mine) and others in the TG community. As such, the entire premise is nothing more than divisive and provocative, hiding behind a cloak claiming otherwise. By being exclusionary of other points of view, a thread which started out being rather legitimate ends up becoming quite the opposite.

If I'm not currently on your ignore list, I expect to be moving back in shortly. Whatever, but I will not return that favor. I actually enjoy reading other POV's.

[Foxglove]

It troubles me that anyone in an open discussion forum would make significant use of such an "ignore" feature, especially in your case where you take such care in crafting thoughtful threads that provoke responses, mostly positive but sometimes critical. It doesn't seem to make much sense by covering your eyes and ears, singing "la la la" as if other points of view neither exist nor are valid in your eyes. What kind of discussion is that???


One reason for using the "Ignore" function would be, not to exclude other points of view, but to exclude personal attacks, which, sadly, are a feature of most forums. I don't use "Ignore" myself, but I can understand why some people might.

Annabelle

[Chardonnay Merlot]

A nice morning discussion as I'm having breakfast and watching Le Tour de France :)

Frederique is someone I maybe disagree with more than I agree with. I enjoy getting her opinion because there is thought put into it. I can enjoy and like a reasoned argument, even if I don't agree. Freddie, you are an intellectual gunslinger...same as me ;) And the one thing about gunslingers is -- they get shot at and sometimes get shot.


Like you I am a male than loves presenting at time as a woman. I love how I look in a pant suit or a shirt...or a feminine running outfit. I like feeling pretty in a way I can in male form.

Like you, I have no desire to transition at all. I like me as I am, and my feminine persona is a part of that too long denied to be open.


Calling me transgendered is like calling Pablo Picasso a surrealist – to other surrealists he is (or was) one, at one time, depending on how you look at it, but he didn’t think of himself in those terms. Confused? Let me tell you, I get confused when transgendered individuals say I’m transgendered just because I crossdress...

Here is where I disagree. I don't have the problem with being seen as "transgendered". Everybody's thought and personal definition of that term is different. Among my friends who are transitioning, their reasoning is that, "You by the act of crossdressing are actively probing, challenging and redefining the gender lines in our society and perhaps even question them-- thus you are 'transgendered'."

Its a line of reasoning that I agree with. Thus, I'll take that "label" and run with it.


Apparently I, the MtF crossdresser, have certain obligations to fulfill – I cannot let down the "community," even though the community looks down on me. I can’t just dress to please myself, stay within my zone of safety, and live in a fantasy world of my own making; I MUST get out there and put myself in harm’s way like a true TG, come what may. If I don't, I’m not to be taken seriously, no matter how well I can plead my case for fairness...

Now here is where I strongly disagree. Yes, there are plenty of transgendered people who may "look down" on me for example because I am not taking the road they are, thus I am seen as at best a "fake" and at worse "an enemy". It is a rash set of judgments. They are wrong in my case. But it is their right to be wrong.
However Frederique, you also counter with a rash set of judgements. And two sets of rash judgments never yield reasoned clarity.

Most people in the "community" I've found don't look down on you. Maybe it is my naiveté, but I've been blessed to have found a very positive community of people across the spectrum who have been supportive and ready to educate me about the many things I don't know. I have built a network of people who are in my life beyond a level of just acquaintance. It is only right that I learn what their deal is. They'd respect if I stayed in the safe haven, but the question I ask is "would I respect me if I did?"


Like I said, there are many TG people on my ignore list, specifically the ones who scoff at “hobbyists” or part-timers like us. I don’t need this kind of abuse,
.

I read this and I am I reminded of a phrase that is a key philosophy in my life -- You have to approach people where they are, not where you'd like them to be.

That's both sides of the ledger. Most likely you've run into people who categorize themselves has TG or TS, and/or have significantly transitioned, or gone fully toward a gender change or achieved it. Their negative response was born of attitudes they've come across and experiences they've had. Largely they've dealt with a majority that has been non-supportive. Thus, that particular person or people may spit "hobbyist" at you. There are others who will try to place themselves "above" because of their status.

Because I've had more positive experiences and are surrounded by a positive teaching group of folks, I have the mechanism to effective deal with that sort of situation. I usually just ignore that person. Because they don't know me, and they aren't giving me to opportunity to their know them. I'd rather concentrate more on the people are being embracing, positive and inclusive.


I feel inferior.
It is never about what you are called. It's about what you answer to. Somebody with the intellectual firepower and the ability to express it should never feel "inferior".
In fact, you are part and parcel of what our society needs when it comes to this issue and so many others.

Never apologize for stirring the pot. It's necessary to make the meal.

[ReineD]

Flaming: Also known as bashing. A hostile and insulting interaction between Internet users. Flaming statements often include the pronoun, "You". They also include criticism of a person's method of communication.

I've just deleted and edited a dozen or so posts in the last page of this thread. If you have a personal comment to address to someone that does not directly relate to the topic at hand (the definition of crossdresser vs. transgender), please do so via PM. If I need to edit more flaming comments, this thread will be closed.

[Sophie_C]

Honestly, I think there's sometimes a reactionary elitist thing that can go on for the CD vs TG thing.

And, it's neither's fault, as it's not gotten to the point where people in general society 'get' the difference between a fetishistic CD versus a transgendered person; something that people get a kick from versus someone's gender identity. So, for the transgendered person, a CD sort of brings down their legitimacy, and so, of course, there's going to be distance and defense. And, for the semi-innocent CD, that ends up being elitism to them.

I do think that if CD's associated more with the fetish crowd (PVC, leather, etc), exclusively used "crossdresser"; instead of "transvestite" or the umbrella "tranny" ;and transgendered people associated with their associated gender and made it clear that they were a transgendered woman or a transgendered man, it would make things far more well understood to the world at large, getting rid of the problem you're posting about. But, that's all theory versus reality. Can't we all just get along? ;)

But, anyway, I am closeted transgendered, as I've posted many times before. I don't get my rocks off on female clothes. In fact, I almost never dress. And, I'm not a crossdresser, at all. But, I do think you deserve to be able to live your life as you please.

[Lori B]

Giving Frédérique a BIG :bh::wave2::)

[Rebeccarabbit]

I agree with Sophie can feel it inside and mentally there is no longer a need to dress up

[Eryn]

Flaming statements often include the pronoun, "You".

Words to live by! If you see the word "you" occuring in a post you're composing you should think carefully before clicking your Post button!

"You" is like dynamite. It's powerful and can be used either for good or evil.

Discussion of ideas is good, criticism of each other is bad.

[ReineD]

Freddy, now that I've put in my two cents as a mod, I'd like to give my opinion. I'm afraid it will be rather lengthy.

There is so much misinformation in this thread I hardly know where to begin.


Many people in this thread have said, "I'm not TG because I'm not attracted to men". We conflate gender identity and sexuality in our culture and we need to stop doing this. They are not related, save for the fact that the majority of male identified persons are attracted to women and vice versa. Still, there are TSs and CDs who are attracted to women, TSs and CDs who are attracted to men, TSs and CDs who are attracted to both, and TSs and CDs who are attracted to neither.


The terms "crossdresser" and "transvestite" are interchangeable. "Crossdresser" is more commonly used in North America, and both words are used in the UK. Academic papers also use the term "transvestite" when referring to crossdressers. No matter how negatively some people may see the term "transvestite", it is not a dirty word.


"Transgender" according to the WPATH describes a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. And gendered presentation (not just the clothes) is one of the categories that defines gender. The gender identity of transgenders differs to widely varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth. Men who are not transgender have no wish to present as females unless they are genuinely doing it on a lark or for mockery. But, there are men who wear skirts and who present fully as men and I agree that these men are not transgender … unless they present this way because they do not want people pointing at them and saying, "Look, that man is trying to look like a woman". As to the men who underdress, we need to also ask if they only do so because they fear ridicule should they go further. There is a real fear among male-bodied and male-socialized individuals of appearing ridiculous and inciting scorn. Does this mean they lack the desires of crossdressers who were blessed with both a physiognomy and more favorable life circumstances that enable them to transform and pass?


The terms "transgender" and even "crossdresser" are widely misused:

a) Now that we understand more about the components of gender than we did when the term "crossdresser" (or "transvestite) first appeared, we know that crossdressing is what a transgendered individual does.

b) Some crossdressers incorrectly believe that "transgender" means "transsexual", a desire to be a woman.

c) Other crossdressers believe the term "crossdresser" means dressing for sexual fetish only and they refuse to use the term for themselves.

d) Some crossdressers do identify as transgender since they realize there is a difference between them and their male friends who would never even consider presenting as women.

e) Level 6 transsexuals (who've had SRS) refuse to place themselves under the transgender umbrella since they see themselves physically and emotionally as women. And some post-op transwomen even refuse to call themselves TS.

f) The media refers to children and adults who seek or have had Gender Reassignment as "transgender" (possibly to avoid any misunderstanding of their use of the proper term "transsexual" when it comes to children), which further complicates matters.

g) Some of the transsexuals (levels 4 or 5) who do solidly identify as women but who do not see their way to having SRS (for a variety of reasons) also define themselves as "transgender", not as an umbrella term, but because they erroneously believe this is a stepping stone between "crossdresser" and "transsexual" and they feel uncomfortable using the term "transsexual" if they do not seek SRS.

h) The truth is, there is a spectrum among transsexuals just as there is among crossdressers, and everyone is transgendered (save the pure sexual fetishists and perhaps the post-op, stealth transwomen but this is another discussion).

h) "Transgender" is not a one way ticket (your post #36). "Transsexual" is the one way fare.


So Freddy, I have questions. You've written many times that you live in a conservative area. If you lived in San Francisco for example, and you knew that you could dress, put on a wig, forms, and not be read as a man in a dress, would you enjoy going out to lunch and being treated like a woman? Something drives you to dress, what is it and why does it offer you such joy and magic (your post #68)? And how would you feel if I went to your house, took all your clothes and makeup away, and told you that you could never express Frédérique again, not even a single earring? Do you feel as if expressing Frédérique is as much a part of you as the other crossdressers in this thread who also adamantly refuse to use the term "transgender" for themselves? Also, how do you know that your gender identity is as purely male as the men who have absolutely no desire to crossdress?

And last, to address your other points regarding a perceived hierarchy within the TG community, I also agree that the pecking order in this community only lives in small-minded people's minds. No one is better or worse than anyone else, just different. And there are countless differences.

[Sandra1746]

You have clarified many points that others were ignoring, for whatever reasons.

Labels are unfortunately divisive by nature but there is no need whatsoever for that tendency to become pervasive in OUR community. We are a small minority and we need to hang together; or we shall surely hang separately.

Just my opinion,
Sandra1746

[ReineD]

I still say, we don't have enough labels (I prefer to use "definitions"), since everyone is using their own version of what they think two or three different words mean, and no one can agree.

Can you imagine the mess our world would be in if we only had "apple", "orange", and "banana" to describe all the fruits? Goodness, there'd be wars between people who call a papaya an orange, and people who call pineapples the same. lol

[Frédérique]

It troubles me that anyone in an open discussion forum would make significant use of such an "ignore" feature, especially in your case where you take such care in crafting thoughtful threads that provoke responses, mostly positive but sometimes critical. It doesn't seem to make much sense by covering your eyes and ears, singing "la la la" as if other points of view neither exist nor are valid in your eyes. What kind of discussion is that???

So you support attacks on me? :sad:

The people on my ignore list are there because they insist on taking my writing apart, sentence by sentence, inserting critical comments, and not offering one word in the way of original thought (for discussion). I don’t WANT to ignore them, but...well...are you familiar with the word “bully?” It troubles ME that the ones causing me to act so drastically are the last ones to be aware of THEIR injurious words, or to display a conscience by way of apology or regret…


You clearly haven't seen all of them.

Yes I have, by way of quotes within other posts, as I have already explained. One way or another, despite my best efforts, a few “missles” still get through…


So Freddy, I have questions.
1.You've written many times that you live in a conservative area. If you lived in San Francisco for example, and you knew that you could dress, put on a wig, forms, and not be read as a man in a dress, would you enjoy going out to lunch and being treated like a woman?
2.Something drives you to dress, what is it and why does it offer you such joy and magic (your post #68)?
3.And how would you feel if I went to your house, took all your clothes and makeup away, and told you that you could never express Frédérique again, not even a single earring? Do you feel as if expressing Frédérique is as much a part of you as the other crossdressers in this thread who also adamantly refuse to use the term "transgender" for themselves?
4.Also, how do you know that your gender identity is as purely male as the men who do not crossdress?

1. Please define “treated like a woman,” and grade your comments geographically…
2. Tactile pleasure. I believe that is begrudgingly referred to in some treatises on transvestism. There is a big difference between being a transvestite and being transgendered, but I know you disagree with my definitions. As for joy and magic, they are in the hearts and minds of individual dressers – I certainly don’t expect everyone to appreciate such simple (and personal) concepts…
3. I wouldn’t feel good about it, but the expression would still come out, one way or the other (as in my artwork, for example). I cannot answer for the other crossdressers in this thread – expression is a very private thing that is, in many ways, beyond discussion…
4. Who says it was? I just know I’m not transgendered, that’s all…


And last, to address your other points regarding a perceived hierarchy within the TG community, I also agree that the pecking order in this community only lives in small-minded people's minds. No one is better or worse than anyone else, just different. And there are countless differences.

This thread came about because a good friend of mine recently came back from the void, and was almost immediately buffeted by unsolicited opinions and advice, making a cloudy mindset only cloudier. I see this time and time again. I would prefer to say nothing and launch another “Tea Party,” but I feel for this friend of mine. I keep wondering that there are others who might come to a site like this, hoping for some reinforcement, or support, or maybe someone will say “It’s OK,” but they get a wheelbarrow-load of confusion instead. With that in mind, all I’m trying to say is this – there are some of us who are JUST crossdressers, with no pretensions to anything else, so please treat us accordingly. I agree - there are countless differences, and they should ALL have a voice…
:straightface:

[ReineD]

*sigh*, then we'll just leave it at that, Freddy. :hugs:

[Marleena]

Okay I feel the need to defend my good friend Freddy here. In case some of you haven't noticed she is one of the most friendly, compassionate, caring and creative people here. Her posts are always meant to invoke thought and discussion. This post is the same but somehow ended up going bad.

Fact is there is a hierarchy or perceived one here created by some members that does exist and will exist as long as the board is here. It's coming from all groups/labels or whatever you want to call them. Everybody has seen it, it even exists amongst the CDers themselves. This is what the thread is about, the feeling of being inferior created by others. I know I've had to defend the CDers on numerous occasions myself.

Freddy chooses to ignore those that harass or otherwise give her a hard time. The ignore option is there for a reason and I have been told by moderators to use it. It is a personal choice and she admitted to using it. Not a big deal based on moderator's advice.

Freddy does not discriminate among the groups, or at least I haven't seen it. She is seeing things from a CDer's POV based on the common definitions of what a CDer is. I see her as trying to help correct or help things by posting this thread.

[brenne]

I just call myself "transgender" - it may or may not become anything other than CD, don't know, but I try to keep an open mind either way. - BrendaB.

[ReineD]

Fact is there is a hierarchy or perceived one here created by some members that does exist and will exist as long as the board is here. It's coming from all groups/labels or whatever you want to call them. Everybody has seen it, it even exists amongst the CDers themselves. This is what the thread is about, the feeling of being inferior created by others. I know I've had to defend the CDers on numerous occasions myself.

Actually, Freddy spoke about two separate issues:




I’ve seen it, time and time again, in this very MtF crossdressing section. If you crossdress, you MUST be transgendered, or on the road to being transgendered, or transgendered without knowing it. To others, the act of crossdressing makes you transgendered. Apparently I, the MtF crossdresser, have certain obligations to fulfill – I cannot let down the "community," even though the community looks down on me. I can’t just dress to please myself, stay within my zone of safety, and live in a fantasy world of my own making; I MUST get out there and put myself in harm’s way like a true TG, come what may. If I don't, I’m not to be taken seriously, no matter how well I can plead my case for fairness..

This is about the idea that Freddy is a CDer and not TG. She apparently feels judged or dismissed because she chooses to keep the CDing private. Also she feels she would be putting herself in harms way by going out dressed and she is understandably reluctant to do this. So it appears as if Freddy's definition of a TG is someone who goes out presenting as a woman in public and since Freddy dresses at home, she is a crossdresser. We've already established that after having read arguments that expand on the prior definitions of the terms "crossdresser" and "transgender", if Freddy still wants to call herself a CDer she is in her full right to do so. No one wants a circular argument.

Freddy's other point is a perception that the community at large here condemns people who are not out to everyone.

I just want to reiterate, it is Freddy's full right to call herself what she wants, and also her right to dress privately. No one here is in a position to criticize this, ever. But, I disagree with the perception that the majority of the people in this forum think badly of Freddy and feel as if she is letting "the community" down by her choices. Anyone need only count the responses in this thread in support of Freddy, to determine otherwise. Yes there have been a few contentious threads about this in the past and it is always the same small handful of people who make a rather strong point, but it is a mistake to say that the majority of people in this forum put others down for their choices.

So no, I do not wish to see this thread turn into a debate about being private vs. going out, or whether it is better to have a full femme identity vs. a partial, vs. none, since the choice about this is individual.

Also, from past experience I know there are a small handful of people who will become inflammatory over this facet of the debate and if we direct the conversation that way and there are more flaming posts, I will close this thread.

[Marleena]

Thanks Reine, it was too much to read and I came in late on this one. I went by Freddy's original post and looks like I missed some points.

"I just want to reiterate, it is Freddy's full right to call herself what she wants, and also her right to dress privately. No one here is in a position to criticize this, ever. But, I disagree with the perception that the majority of the people in this forum think badly of Freddy and feel as if she is letting "the community" down by her choices. Anyone need only count the responses in this thread in support of Freddy, to determine otherwise. Yes there have been a few contentious threads about this in the past and it is always the same small handful of people who make a rather strong point, but it is a mistake to say that the majority of people in this forum put others down for their choices."

I agree fully with the above statement.

[Kathy Smith]

I still say, we don't have enough labels (I prefer to use "definitions"), since everyone is using their own version of what they think two or three different words mean, and no one can agree.

Can you imagine the mess our world would be in if we only had "apple", "orange", and "banana" to describe all the fruits? Goodness, there'd be wars between people who call a papaya an orange, and people who call pineapples the same. lol

That hits the nail on the head, Reine. The major problem is the Latin language, which is very imprecise when parts are taken out of context, and the prefix "trans-":

a prefix occurring in loanwords from Latin (transcend; transfix); on this model, used with the meanings “across,” “beyond,” “through,” “changing thoroughly,” “transverse,” in combination with elements of any origin: transisthmian; trans-Siberian; transempirical; transvalue.

It doesn't define what we want. It gets used for single direction ("transsexual") and omnidirectional ("transvestite"). Obviously the latter can change clothes in both directions at will. :)

The term "transgender", as it has been defined, is so wide that you can drive a fleet of buses through it. You may as well just change it to "human" and be done with it. Freddy's definition of it, as I read it, is more accurately derived and far more precise:

a person who changes their gender (not their sex or sexual preferences) to that of the opposite gender.

I read that as being a single-directional term, similar to "transsexual". Using this definition Freddy is not "Transgender" and neither am I. :) (Sorry if I got it wrong, Freddy. :) )

Of course, we can never correct all this. The media demands an umbrella term that can be applied to everyone who doesn't fit into the commonly accepted norm. They've applied "Transgender" to that and we're stuck with it. So, "Transsexuals" (pre-op, post-op or whatever), you are "Transgender" whether you like it or not (and you always will be). So are you, "Crossdressers" and/or "Transvestites". The media says so. The actual definition has become so diluted now that it's completely useless.

If this post doesn't get me flamed I've done something wrong. :D

[Sara Jessica]

So you support attacks on me? :sad:

Of course not, you know that's not true.


[The people on my ignore list are there because they insist on taking my writing apart, sentence by sentence, inserting critical comments, and not offering one word in the way of original thought (for discussion). I don’t WANT to ignore them, but...well...are you familiar with the word “bully?” It troubles ME that the ones causing me to act so drastically are the last ones to be aware of THEIR injurious words, or to display a conscience by way of apology or regret…

Well I read said post completely and found it to be rather gentle, especially given the history there. I also found it to be full of the original thoughts you claim to be lacking. Just because opinions are not marching lock-step with your premise doesn't render them invalid. Remember, "just a crossdresser" is a rather provocative statement whether one wants to be associated as such or not. It seems that statements made to a contrary are dismissed way too easily.

Contrary opinions are not necessarily personal attacks but regardless, whether a person can be aware that their words are injurious in some way, shape or form, how can they know how you feel if you refuse to read those words, let alone acknowledge them whether in the open forum or via PM? It's like that driver who cuts us off in traffic and then flips the bird when we honk, they go about their business completely oblivious to the fact that they were the party in the wrong. I'm sure we have all wished we could tell that driver the error of their ways. So if you feel that someone's post is "injuring" you, then isn't it a better tactic to respond rather than ignore?

I don't know, it feels like I'm beating my head against a wall for no reason.

[Thera Home]

Hello Ladies
This thread is just too intense. So much reading my simple mind cant handle it.:bonk:. I think all of you are beautiful and unique. I am so glad to part of this family.

Thera

[Veronica27]

That hits the nail on the head, Reine. The major problem is the Latin language, which is very imprecise when parts are taken out of context, and the prefix "trans-":

a prefix occurring in loanwords from Latin (transcend; transfix); on this model, used with the meanings “across,” “beyond,” “through,” “changing thoroughly,” “transverse,” in combination with elements of any origin: transisthmian; trans-Siberian; transempirical; transvalue.

It doesn't define what we want. It gets used for single direction ("transsexual") and omnidirectional ("transvestite"). Obviously the latter can change clothes in both directions at will. :)

The term "transgender", as it has been defined, is so wide that you can drive a fleet of buses through it. You may as well just change it to "human" and be done with it. Freddy's definition of it, as I read it, is more accurately derived and far more precise:

a person who changes their gender (not their sex or sexual preferences) to that of the opposite gender.

I read that as being a single-directional term, similar to "transsexual". Using this definition Freddy is not "Transgender" and neither am I. :) (Sorry if I got it wrong, Freddy. :) )

Of course, we can never correct all this. The media demands an umbrella term that can be applied to everyone who doesn't fit into the commonly accepted norm. They've applied "Transgender" to that and we're stuck with it. So, "Transsexuals" (pre-op, post-op or whatever), you are "Transgender" whether you like it or not (and you always will be). So are you, "Crossdressers" and/or "Transvestites". The media says so. The actual definition has become so diluted now that it's completely useless.

If this post doesn't get me flamed I've done something wrong. :D

Hi Kathy

Very well stated. But why should we be stuck with it? The media does more misinforming than it does informing. We see this every day with the coverage of politics. Everything is slanted the way the particular outlet wants it to be seen. But to get back on topic, your definition of transgender is correct, both historicaly,and grammaticaly. One of the first people to use the phrase (it was actually transgenderist) was Virginia Prince, co-founder of Tri-ess, who applied it to herself, because she was no longer an example of the core group of individuals that tri-ess was established to support. She found herself living virtually full time as a woman because of her position and responsibilities as the head of tri-ess. She went on hormones, but did not believe in SRS, so she concluded that she had "crossed over" (trans) to the other gender more or less permanently, but had not crossed over to the other sex. Transgender seemed to be the ideal label. That is the historical side. You have stated the grammatical side. People like to say that language evolves, which in a sense it does, but that does not excuse the laziness that allows terms to be used inaccurately. We seem to be seeing this more and more, aided in part by technology that encourages the useage of codes and catchphrases to save time and effort. I crossdress. That is a verb. As one who does so, I am a crossdresser. But that is but one of a great many things that I also "am". It does not define me in any way other than to mention something I sometimes do. But there is no verbal form of transgender. It is not something people do, but is something they are, i.e. a human condition. It defines an individual in a much deeper and more profound manner than something that a person does occasionally or even frequently. They are TG, even if they seldom express it.

Transgenderism does exist, but its pure definition is nowhere near as all-inclusive as many would have us believe. By some definitions, almost everybody is TG, because some aspect of their daily life happens to transcend some imaginary boundary between masculinity and femininity. On the other hand, a more concise definition makes the term extremely misleading as an umbrella for a very diverse community of individuals.

Veronica

[Frédérique]

Another day, another lengthy post...:doh:


Freddy does not discriminate among the groups, or at least I haven't seen it. She is seeing things from a CDer's POV based on the common definitions of what a CDer is. I see her as trying to help correct or help things by posting this thread.

That is correct, and I appreciate your kind words and support, Marleena! :)

There are very few individuals on my ignore list, but we have encountered a few during the course of this thread. I KNOW they are going to show up, and I know I will be “inspired” to derail my own thread by way of heated responses, so, under the influence of crossdressing and its attendant ladylike behavior, isn’t it better to sidestep the anger that could develop? I think so. I’m glad there are ways to keep a level head around here. There was a time when I was afraid to post ANYTHING, especially thread OP’s, because the same people would descend on me like a babe in the woods. Referencing Sara Jessica’s previous comment about my willful ignorance (of certain members) being anathema to discussion, I wish to point out that pointed attacks on my written words do the same thing, from another direction, if you can see things from my point of view. I know I’m being looked down upon by some because I’m a “mere” crossdresser (who writes about it), and, if I didn’t, I certainly wouldn’t bother trying to discuss this controversial subject...


I just want to reiterate, it is Freddy's full right to call herself what she wants, and also her right to dress privately. No one here is in a position to criticize this, ever. But, I disagree with the perception that the majority of the people in this forum think badly of Freddy and feel as if she is letting "the community" down by her choices. Anyone need only count the responses in this thread in support of Freddy, to determine otherwise. Yes there have been a few contentious threads about this in the past and it is always the same small handful of people who make a rather strong point, but it is a mistake to say that the majority of people in this forum put others down for their choices.

Yes, and it is NOT my intention to create a rift between the various “factions” of crossdressers. I recently read an excellent assessment of the community we are a part of, or the umbrella we all come under, according to the auspices of society, for lack of any true understanding, and that is this – we cannot agree on anything! Rather than hinder any attempt at understanding, this fact only emboldens me (and others) to try wrapping words around seemingly difficult concepts in an attempt to forge increased acceptance. When the threads get contentious I know I’m getting closer to the heart of the problem, if there is one, and some are getting a glimpse of their own community from my perspective, which happens to be at the very edge of the “umbrella.” Help!?


Also, from past experience I know there are a small handful of people who will become inflammatory over this facet of the debate and if we direct the conversation that way and there are more flaming posts, I will close this thread.

Thanks for NOT closing the thread (so far), Reine! I appreciate your support, and thanks for making an effort to see things from the perspective of us “ordinary” crossdressers...:)

I have a question. Are you posting within this discussion as a member, or as a moderator? If it is the former, how can you (technically) close the thread? I assume your answer might be, “Just WATCH me!” but I’m curious – do you shift between member and mod as the situation presents itself, or are you always a moderator, and thus here primarily to keep the peace? Your words betray a certain compassion in this regard...


The term "transgender", as it has been defined, is so wide that you can drive a fleet of buses through it. You may as well just change it to "human" and be done with it. Freddy's definition of it, as I read it, is more accurately derived and far more precise: a person who changes their gender (not their sex or sexual preferences) to that of the opposite gender. I read that as being a single-directional term, similar to "transsexual". Using this definition Freddy is not "Transgender" and neither am I. (Sorry if I got it wrong, Freddy.)

No, you got it right! I harp upon this dictionary definition of "trans-"quite often, because it provides an insight into word origins as well as the labels that society places on us. By definition, if you are transgendered a definite change has taken place, from one gender to the other, and any crossdressing becomes simply “dressing” in regards to this transformation. If a male wears women’s clothing occasionally, and then reverts back to his male appearance (even after a lengthy visit to the “other side”), and it stays at that level (i.e. goes no further), I don’t think you can accurately call that person transgendered. However, wearing women’s clothing aligns us with the transgendered community – this comes about because certain assumptions are created in people’s minds, either due to ignorance or laziness, and we are trundled together with actual TG’s by association...

So, we come here, attracted by the title, to “meet” other crossdressers, and we bump into the TG community in all its glory. But, what if we are “just” crossdressers? This seems to cause friction with some who aren’t JUST crossdressers. Darned if I don’t feel like an outsider at times, but it comes with the territory. I go back and forth, from one side to the other, crossing from one gender to another in my effort to “play as a girl.” I don’t think it can hurt to dissect words for their actual meanings, or their original meanings, in an effort to find out why a MtF crossdresser and a trangendered person would have differing opinions. I agree that the word “transgendered” has been broadened politically to now encompass ALL forms of crossdressing, but, it that’s the case, shouldn’t this place be called transgender.com? I think the actual title of this site reflects an acceptance of all crossdressers, even though the latter term is becoming increasingly obsolete. Most “accurate” terms go that route, replaced by confusing language that clouds the issue, whatever it may be...

BTW, I would join a site called transvestite.com immediately, but, if it originated in this country, I’m sure it would be aligned (and filled) with pornography...:sad:

[NicoleScott]

I never bought the argument that we shouldn't use labels. We need them, sometimes more, sometimes less, but we need to use them in a way so that when you use a word, I understand what you mean. "Transgender", in all its different uses, doesn't communicate well. We need a word to describe (more narrowly than "transgender") the people such as Reine describes below:


g) Some of the transsexuals (levels 4 or 5) who do solidly identify as women but who do not see their way to having SRS (for a variety of reasons) also define themselves as "transgender", not as an umbrella term, but because they erroneously believe this is a stepping stone between "crossdresser" and "transsexual" and they feel uncomfortable using the term "transsexual" if they do not seek SRS.

"Transgender", the catch-all umbrella term, has been taken. We need a new one.

Reine, did you really have to use "fruits" as your analogy? haha

[Thera Home]

"Transgender", the catch-all umbrella term, has been taken. We need a new one.


Yes, I agree. What about Fashionalistbeautyadmirealistguy

Thera

[ReineD]

Hi Kathy

She [Virginia Prince] went on hormones, but did not believe in SRS, so she concluded that she had "crossed over" (trans) to the other gender more or less permanently, but had not crossed over to the other sex. Transgender seemed to be the ideal label. That is the historical side. You have stated the grammatical side. People like to say that language evolves, which in a sense it does, but that does not excuse the laziness that allows terms to be used inaccurately.

But knowledge also evolves, particularly our understanding of gender, which we now believe is not binary. Something drives a genetic male to wish to transcend the culturally defined norms of masculinity in order to express femininity, so what is it? Why is there a need to feel feminine, if it isn't a degree of feminine gender identification, even if this ebbs and flows and even if the primary gender ID is male?

To say that the act of crossdressing is simply something that one does and is not unlike engaging in a hobby or playing a sport does not acknowledge the deeper psychological motives for choosing to temporarily change or transcend something that is fundamental to our core sense of who we are, namely our gender.



I have a question. Are you posting within this discussion as a member, or as a moderator? If it is the former, how can you (technically) close the thread? I assume your answer might be, “Just WATCH me!” but I’m curious – do you shift between member and mod as the situation presents itself, or are you always a moderator, and thus here primarily to keep the peace? Your words betray a certain compassion in this regard...

I'm a transmoderator! I switch back and forth. :D

Seriously, sometimes I'm purely a mod trying to keep the peace (post #96), sometimes I post my opinion purely as a member (#101), and sometimes it's hard to separate since as an individual I dislike strife and I post as both (#108).

So maybe I'm a bimod, or a dualmod. lol

I do care about all the members here no matter their gender identity and I also consider the people lurking who haven't joined yet (the CDs, TSs, and their wives/husbands). As both a mod and as a member, I believe in putting our best face forward to the public at large and I dislike it when threads disintegrate because members have forgotten that everyone has a right to their opinion, as long as it is expressed respectfully. This is why I have no qualms about closing a thread that I've participated in as a member, when it becomes a free for all.

[Leila Be]

Dear Frédérique: I dress for tactile, sensual and sexual reasons, but in the end I just dress because it makes me feel very relaxed. My heart beats faster, my skin tingles, and a part of me is able to simply let go and slip into something more comfortable. I have no desire to become a TG. I adore my "breast forms", wigs, silk nighties and hose, but would never consider any thing further. As a man, I feel comfortable. As a CD, I feel.....well, hidden...and that's a shame. Always love your thoughts and posts. Leila


[QUOTE=Frédérique;2885646][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="2"][COLOR="black"] ...."there is a BIG difference between a male who dresses as a woman for tactile or sexual reasons, and a transgendered person who may be way more serious about what they do.

[Abbyru1]

Personally, I consider myself a crossdresser. I'm not "trans"" anything. I'd be a transformer if i could go between female and male when I wanted to. But all of the other titles don't make it with me. Transvestvite sounds creepy as hell. "Tranny" to me is the part of automobile that allows
the horsepower produced from an engine to be sent to the rearend-not THAT rearend-and trans axles are a real differnt story. I'm happy to be considered a CD. Although that too is not what society calls what I am. To most of them , I'm a guy in a dress.

[Emilie_la_Nuit]

I also consider myself as a crossdresser. And I am especially using "he" and "male" terms talking about me. I hope it will help the society to be less binary as far as clothes are concerned.

[Xrys]

First, to answer your question, no, I am not just a crossdresser. I am, as I have come to understand myself over these last few months, TS. Over the last few months, I have enbarked on a inward journey to understand myself and I have made some discoveries that I hope will be helpfull.

First of all, I have discovered an internal conflict within myself. It is not the conflict with my male and female selves, but a conflict between two parts of my femminine whole. It is a conflict between my inner lady and my inner bitch. Logic, reason, compassion, forgiveness, and love are the qualities i find in my inner lady. Her alter ego can best be described with the words from Captain Jack Sparrow. "She is the embodiement of a woman's scorn, the likes of which Hell's furry hath no." She rages inside my head, seething with anger and hatred. What makes many of us different is how we deal with these feelings of anger, frusteration, and often times jealousy. It affects the theings we say, the way we act, and it forms part of the lens through which we see the world.

I often wish that I was Just a crossdresser. I wish that a change of clothes was all it took to make me happy. But that just ain't the way it is, not for me anyway. And my inner bitch rages in my head. She screams about how much she hates that crossdressers have it so much easier than us. She yells out how much easier it would be if I didnt need therapy and hormones, and surgury, and all this dam waiting. She slams her fists down on the table shouting that they have the luxury of staying in the closet and not having to worry as much about societies rules and the rejection that comes when you don't conform to them. Then the yelling stops, and she falls to her knees. she begins to cry. She sobs abohow expensive her happyness is. She laments about how she is going to tell her parents that they will never have grandchildren. She is a part of me, and it has taken me a long time to learn to deal with these feelings, and sometimes I still don't know what to do with them. Sometimes we don't always choose the best way of dealing with our emotions, and we vent our anger and frustration on people who don't deserve it. It is not right, and it is not fair, but sometimes that's just the way it is. All I can do is try my best not to hurt someone else, and understand that those who are hurting others are them selves huting, and hope that they will find their own peace soon. That is just part of the world we live in.

[ReineD]

She screams about how much she hates that crossdressers have it so much easier than us. She yells out how much easier it would be if I didnt need therapy and hormones, and surgury, and all this dam waiting.

Ah. But there's an end in sight for you. One day you will be transitioned, you'll have gotten past all this, and you will fit nicely as a binary woman in a binary world. However, crossdressers (depending on the degree of their need to express themselves, and depending on the acceptance of their families), face different yet just as difficult challenges. For life. We do not live in a world that accepts men who need to express femininity nor does the world accept people who experience a non-binary mixture of gender identity. Crossdressers experience the frustration of not feeling free to express themselves, and they also lose jobs and families.

I respect your challenges and I know it is not easy to face the losses you will experience from the people in your life who will not be able to accept your transition. And I feel compassion for what you are going through. But it is a mistake to feel as if your pain is greater than someone else who has a completely different set of challenges than you do.

:hugs:

[Veronica27]

But knowledge also evolves, particularly our understanding of gender, which we now believe is not binary. Something drives a genetic male to wish to transcend the culturally defined norms of masculinity in order to express femininity, so what is it? Why is there a need to feel feminine, if it isn't a degree of feminine gender identification, even if this ebbs and flows and even if the primary gender ID is male?

To say that the act of crossdressing is simply something that one does and is not unlike engaging in a hobby or playing a sport does not acknowledge the deeper psychological motives for choosing to temporarily change or transcend something that is fundamental to our core sense of who we are, namely our gender.

A desire to crossdress may or may not include a desire to express one's own sense of femininity, but that does not have to translate into "gender identification". Nobody ever claims that a woman is identifying with the "masculine gender" if she takes auto mechanics, goes fishing, wears jeans and a t-shirt, does house repairs or any of the countless other "masculine" things that they do. Why does everyone assume a man is identifying with the "feminine gender" simply because he enjoys participating in some of the cultural practices normally assigned to the female sex.

What you describe as knowledge and understanding of gender is primarily psychological theory and opinions, and not provable fact. They are the result of attempting to answer the many questions that have resulted from all the cultural and social changes that have occurred over the past half century or so. Gender, unlike sex, is an intangible and therefore incapable of possessing a finite definition. As some state, gender is a social construct, meaning it is whatever a given society deems it to be at any point in time.

The following explanation of gender was found at http://www.yourdictionary.com/gender?

"Traditionally, gender has been used primarily to refer to the grammatical categories of “masculine,” “feminine,” and “neuter,” but in recent years the word has become well established in its use to refer to sex-based categories, as in phrases such as gender gap and the politics of gender. This usage is supported by the practice of many anthropologists, who reserve sex for reference to biological categories, while using gender to refer to social or cultural categories. According to this rule, one would say The effectiveness of the medication appears to depend on the sex (not gender) of the patient, but In peasant societies, gender (not sex) roles are likely to be more clearly defined. This distinction is useful in principle, but it is by no means widely observed, and considerable variation in usage occurs at all levels."

Thus, the use of gender in this sense of our "identity" is fairly recent, is not universally observed, and varies considerably. In fact, it is not something that we "are" in the same way as the categorizing of our sex, but it is a social and cultural categorizing of all the roles and various other qualities and characteristics that combine to form human nature. As individuals we possess our own characteristics, which a given culture may look upon as being masculine, feminine or neutral according to its precepts, but it is a major jump to say this defines our "gender" or our "gender identity"

The core sense of who I am includes my sex, which is male and finite and does not change regardless of what I am doing or how I am dressed. As far as I am concerned, gender is a non-issue. I neither feel it or sense it, at least as I understand the meaning of the word. Do I express my own femininity from time to time? Of course I do, as do probably at least 95% of the male population if they could only get beyond cultural indoctrination and be honest. They may not express it by their clothing choices, but appearance is but a small part of the total person.

Crossdressing as a word is a verb. Crossdresser simply means that I crossdress, which as I said is but one of many things that I am, and does not define me as a person. However transgender, by its meaning, describes the person, not one of his activities. You cannot be transgendered one day, and not transgendered the next. It becomes a condition of your being, and not an activity in which you sometimes indulge. As I am not of the opinion that I possess a gender in the modern sense of that word, how can I be transgendered.

I can accept that many people hold the modern opinions concerning gender, and thus transgender. I also recognize that many people do possess a condition that is commonly referred to as transgendered. I may debate the issues with them, but I do not attempt to say they are not what they feel themselves to be. By the same token, I do not like having people ridicule me for my views, and insist that because I crossdress I am transgendered. That approach used to be rampant on this forum when I first joined, and I did not visit here for several years after a very nasty exchange with some of the militants. When I checked back in, they had largely disappeared, and the current posters appeared to have a much more tolerant approach to everybody's views. I hope things are not reverting to those bad days.

Veronica

[Jacqueline Winona]

If you lived in San Francisco for example, and you knew that you could dress, put on a wig, forms, and not be read as a man in a dress, would you enjoy going out to lunch and being treated like a woman?
People in San Francisco are as smart as anyone else and read CD/TG/TS as well as those in Omaha or anywhere else. They just don't care as much. :) (Yes, trying to inject a little humor into this thread before it devolves any further).

[annecwesley]

I define cross-dressing as wearing apparel that is traditionally associated with or worn by the opposite gender. It has become entirely socially acceptable for women in this culture to cross-dress even though at one time it was not and in some sub-cultures a woman in pants or a tee shirt (a man’s undershirt) it still is considered unacceptable. People cross-dress for a number of reasons and I don’t believe there is a single “syndrome” where all of us are on the same “path” to some sort of womanhood. We are not a community; we are individuals with some common interests. At most we are communities, and we really cannot, or should not impose our expectations or values on the rest of the members of this forum. I oppose homosexual marriage and would oppose a man trying to pass as a woman in certain circumstances. Some forum members are horrified with this, but I have no obligation or inclination to buy into a particular agenda simply because I like to wear women’s clothing. I understand Freddy's point of view and have experienced the conflict between simple cross-dressing and other practices or lifestyles that incorporate men wearing woman’s clothing.


I cross-dress. Sometimes I even go out in public cross-dressed - a guy in a skirt. I don't do makeup, nor do I shave off my beard. The only reason I would try to "pass" is so that I might be able to go out in public and not feel so stared at! I enjoy, as sort of a hobby, taking photographs of myself looking as female as I possibly can look; I do not want to be female or live a female life. But if I had my way I would simply be able to wear whatever feminine or masculine attire suits my mood or task for the day.

[Sara Jessica]

...She screams about how much she hates that crossdressers have it so much easier than us.

Yes, my life is infinitely easier if I were "just a crossdresser". Most importantly, my wife wouldn't have to worry every day if the bell is going to go off inside my head which could lead me headlong into transition.


Ah. But there's an end in sight for you. One day you will be transitioned, you'll have gotten past all this, and you will fit nicely as a binary woman in a binary world.

But for those of us on a middle path, there is no end in sight. Only a lifetime of balance, seeking fulfillment, and depending on one's degree of "out-ness", subterfuge (which in my case is the stealth involved to keep my children shielded from having to know about this side of me and what it takes to explain away outings, not to mention the pain-in-the-ass to simply get out the door in the first place).


However, crossdressers (depending on the degree of their need to express themselves, and depending on the acceptance of their families), face different yet just as difficult challenges. For life. We do not live in a world that accepts men who need to express femininity nor does the world accept people who experience a non-binary mixture of gender identity. Crossdressers experience the frustration of not feeling free to express themselves, and they also lose jobs and families.

I know this isn't lost upon you given this is more of a "CD" discussion but those who identify as TS also lose much when it comes to family/friends/careers. Your comment made me think which side has it worse in that department. I would suggest that the transitioning individual has more to lose based solely on the fact that they are pretty much out to everyone in the process of transition. However, I don't want to discount or trivialize the loss on the CD side. These pages are littered with such loss, mostly in spousal or dating relationships where the SO has understandable issues in accepting a gender anomaly in her gender binary world. I would not necessarily suggest that loss is more profound on either side, whether TS or CD or somewhere in-between, but from a practical standpoint, the loss should be more avoidable (or at least easier managed) on the CD side. Regardless, it's sad that loss even has to be part of the equation.

[Sweet Caroline]

The term "cross dresser" is fine with me. Transvestite was a medical term used by Shrinks in the 1950's before they knew anything about us.
The biggest confusion of all from everyone is because we want to dress and appear as a woman that we secretly desire to be a woman, which is not always true. The last thing I want to be is an "Old Lady". I prefer to grow older as a man, and keep my sweet Caroline to myself. The other confusion is dressed as a woman we want sex from a man, that might hold true for Gay Cross dressers, I don't really know. Cross dressing is not about sex, however it has a self erotic side we can't honestly deny.

[Tess]

I normally avoid these esoteric debates on the words crossdresser and transgender. Just this once I let myself be sucked in and decided to look at how these words were defined by several on line dictionaries. Its no wonder that we are confused or have different views of their meaning when the dictionaries can't even agree. Quote the dictionary that has the definition that fits your personal view. What I did learn was that most defined transgender more narrowly and not inclusive of those who do not want to be a different gender in whole or in part. That certainly fits my view that I'm just a crossdresser and not transgender. It also seems to fit, in my opinion, the world view of what these terms mean. Its understandable that any relatively small group in a large population, like the transgendered, would want to feel they are less different by widening the definition of their situation. My take away from all this is that transgendered is wanting to BE a different gender in whole or in part while crossdressers want to occasionally dress like a different gender and have a jolly good time.

[ReineD]

A desire to crossdress may or may not include a desire to express one's own sense of femininity, but that does not have to translate into "gender identification".

Veronica, I don't mean to ignore your post. Thank you for stating it so well, I will take some time to digest everything you've said.

:hugs:

[busker]

But knowledge also evolves, particularly our understanding of gender, which we now believe is not binary. Something drives a genetic male to wish to transcend the culturally defined norms of masculinity in order to express femininity, so what is it? Why is there a need to feel feminine, if it isn't a degree of feminine gender identification, even if this ebbs and flows and even if the primary gender ID is male?

To say that the act of crossdressing is simply something that one does and is not unlike engaging in a hobby or playing a sport does not acknowledge the deeper psychological motives for choosing to temporarily change or transcend something that is fundamental to our core sense of who we are, namely our gender.



I'm a transmoderator! I switch back and forth. :D

Seriously, sometimes I'm purely a mod trying to keep the peace (post #96), sometimes I post my opinion purely as a member (#101), and sometimes it's hard to separate since as an individual I dislike strife and I post as both (#108).

So maybe I'm a bimod, or a dualmod. lol

I do care about all the members here no matter their gender identity and I also consider the people lurking who haven't joined yet (the CDs, TSs, and their wives/husbands). As both a mod and as a member, I believe in putting our best face forward to the public at large and I dislike it when threads disintegrate because members have forgotten that everyone has a right to their opinion, as long as it is expressed respectfully. This is why I have no qualms about closing a thread that I've participated in as a member, when it becomes a free for all.

This may be a TAD off topic but I think that you are suggesting that hobbies are valueless/mindless and I think that that could be not seeing them in their context--perhaps like some see just plain crossdressing. remember that most "scientists of the earlier centuries were "hobbyists", not formally/university trained as many of disciplines that we now have were added towards the end of the 19th century as education itself changed . Darwin, for example studied medicine (didn't complete course, ) and theology but basically learned the natural sciences doing museum work, reading, etc. He was, strictly speaking an "amateur-hobbyist" scientist. Most hobbies require skills, knowledge and other things that do transcend daily life activities. While some people have have turned their hobbies into a profession, they still began as hobbies.
Additionally, I have read in this thread I believe at least one person who said she no longer needs to dress to "transcend" her gender, so that dressing as an act itself is unimportant. What of the phrase that gender is in the mind, sex between the legs. This could the case for "just crossdressers" where there is no transcendence (though personally I do think that in some way we do change even if we are not on the road to thailand.) It could be like the "icing on the cake", the cake itself being the defining state of being. How does one transcend oneself, a subjective viewpoint that is unique in the world?

[Davena Doll]

Well if you do the math. _________ 2 Ya Im only a crossdresser too.
TS / TV MEN
V ____ . ( _____ ) =
CD CD

[AngelaKelly<3]

I see myself as being "transgendered" more than JUST a crossdresser. I know it all comes under the transgendered unberella and all that, but prefer using "transgendered" to "crossdresser".

[diannecourtney]

Sorry to hear of the negatives, but this world is full of the. Oh I love my stuff and if it lead somewhere, I'd appreciate it and do the necessary changes, but I'd be damned if anyone of us bedeviled our Fraddie, queer and all. Keep up the good work!!!!

[danielletorresani]

I'm "just a crossdresser", too! I have no desire to transition (though I would love to do it for a month or two if I could change back again) and actually love being a man! I just happen to have times that I like to dress up in lingerie and sexy dresses.

[Stephanie47]

I'm "Just A Cross Dresser" and have absolutely no desire to transition to a woman. Cross dressing brings me relief from stress. I truly believe everyone has some degree of femininity in their personalities. With me, Stephanie comes out to give her twin brother time away from the stresses of the world and prior bad experiences which haunt him on occasion. That's one reason for confining my cross dressing to my home. As a cross dresser who cannot 'pass,' I would not get the feeling of peace if I were out in public. For me cross dressing is my own private world. When Stephanie has given her twin brother enough down time, he will reappear. There are times when I have had days of opportunity to be en femme, Stephanie has not appeared. It is not a compulsive disorder.

[Jessica S]

Just thinking. I consider myself a crossdresser and not transgender. I am a man who likes to wear women's clothes. I don't feel like I have changed gender(sex). I might pretend to be female, but the key word is pretend. I know I am not nor do I want to be a women.

Looking at the some of post about how the words "crossdress and transgender" and any of their forms are used. I think of the news reports of men that dress a women trying to either misdirect or hide. The news never says the individual was being transgeder to diguise himself it is alway he was crossdressed. There is no inference that the man wanted to change geneder.

I know it is not the best example of a person who crossdressed but it is one that kind of discribes what we have be discussing between "crossdress and transgender".

[NicoleScott]

Are you JUST a crossdresser?

No. Many of us are men who like to occasionally wear women's clothes, shoes, wigs, makeup, etc. We are THE crossdressers. The rest are JUST gender-confused, JUST gender-variant, JUST Transsexual, or JUST whatever.

[Sara Jessica]

Looking at the some of post about how the words "crossdress and transgender" and any of their forms are used. I think of the news reports of men that dress a women trying to either misdirect or hide. The news never says the individual was being transgeder to diguise himself it is alway he was crossdressed. There is no inference that the man wanted to change geneder.

This is because based on outward appearances, Muggles really have no idea how one personally identifies unless they are told. Appearance offers few clues, if any at all, so they default to their most familiar terminology, crossdresser or transvestite, as their chosen word of description.

[Nancie64]

I have to add Nancie to just the crossdresser list. Have been dressing since my mid teens and now in my mid 60's and can't say I every had thought of any changes. I love just dressing when I can, weather permitting,(100 degrees today). I too have had some not very nice remarks posted by others on here. Maybe those of us that CD are more sure of where we stand.

[bobbimo]

Yup, You can count me in the CD column.
AND I love this site because for the first time I feel there are more just plain old CD's around and there is more CD discussions about real life stuff.
Many of the other sites I have seen quickly lead to a sexual encounter of some sort. No real help on finding tips to be a the best looking and feeling woman you can be.
Bobbi

[vivianann]

I know exactly what you mean frederique, I too have experience the disdain, or the I am better than thou type of attitude in the tg community, I have always identified myself as a crossdresser, because that is what I do, however when I search deep down in my being it is much more complicated than I like it to be, because of the labeling in the tg community it is difficult at best for some of us to identify as we truly are. As I have stated earlier and in the past, I consider myself to be a crossdresser, because I do not want to have a sex change, however I identify more as a woman than I do a man, I want to live 24/7 as a woman and am working on achieving that goal. Sometimes I see myself wanting to identify as a *******, but I dont like the negative conotation, or stigma that goes with that label, because I am not into the pornagraphy aspect of that lifestyle. I just want to look like a woman with breasts, and bodyshape, and a feminine looking face, and to live as a woman, but keep my genitaila as they are. Another thing I am attracted to GGs, so where does that put me in the labeling spectrum.
I am tired of being looked down on, because I am not ts, or because I dont drink alcoholic beverages at tg events, my dresses are too conservative, and I am JUST A CROSSDRESSER!, like it means I am a lesser person. The list goes on and on.
I accept everybody as they are, we are all equal no matter what label we choose or not choose for ourselves inside the wide spectrum of the tg community.

[julia marie]

Can I suggest that when it comes to labels we go back to the grading system we had in school with B+ B B- etc. for lack of great definitions on the various labels? Am I just a crossdresser if I always feel and think like a guy no matter what I'm wearing? Am I still just a crossdresser if I act/walk/talk more like a woman? Still just a crossdresser if I wonder what it's really like to be a woman? To think like a woman? To think I might like to be en femme with a guy? At what point does someone become TG? I believe that a lot of us have some degree of a feminine element. I'm starting find that I enjoy rather than dread that.
I'll call myself a CDer but I honestly believe there are some shades of gray. Hence maybe I'm CD+

[ReineD]

I know exactly what you mean frederique, I too have experience the disdain, or the I am better than thou type of attitude in the tg community

I'd like to comment here, and this is not directed just at you Vivianann. I'm suggesting that your perception there is disdain or a better-than-thou attitude is one sided. Admittedly there have been a few TS members who've come off as if they are better than others, but this is only a small handful, not the entire TS community. We've had obnoxious CDers too over the years, who've had their own attitude issues. :p

What I do read consistently, is an attempt by the TSs to describe the difference between being a woman in a man's body vs. needing to use the clothing in order to feel feminine, and feeling feminine only part of the time. This is not saying that one is better than the other, in my opinion, just different.

A big part of the trouble, I think, is that no one puts labels like "TS", "CD", or "TS Questioning" behind their names, and if you encounter a supportive post you might assume it comes from a CD when in fact it was posted by a TS. :)

[Dana7]

Frederique,

I totally identify with everything you have written here. Like you, I have been victim of condescending attitudes directed at me from a small circle of TG snobs on this site. For some reason, they seem to believe that they are above everyone else for the simple reason of the way they have chosen to walk their path in life. But you know Freddy, my friend, there are snobs like this in all walks of life. I've encountered them on the jobsite, in hobby circles I frequent, in social groups I have belonged to, and even in my relatives. These are insecure people who cannot feel satisfied until they have elevated themselves above someone else by putting the others down.

You, Freddy, are truly a gift in yourself. You are among the most expressive, fluent, and imaginative writers I have had the privilege to read. And I can agree with you that there is a simple joy in doing those little things that give us satisfaction and happiness, even if they are infrequent, noncommittal, or non-TG. Like you, I just have a little fun now and then and it makes me happy.

And you, Freddy, you make me happy too.

[samantha11]

Yes I just like to dress like a woman. The whole en femme thing now since wife did makeup and wig. Just don't want to be a woman or with a man.

[Krististeph]

[QUOTE=Frédérique;2889089]So you support attacks on me? :sad:

The people on my ignore list are there because they insist on taking my writing apart, sentence by sentence, inserting critical comments, and not offering one word in the way of original thought (for discussion). I don’t WANT to ignore them, but...well...are you familiar with the word “bully?” It troubles ME that the ones causing me to act so drastically are the last ones to be aware of THEIR injurious words, or to display a conscience by way of apology or regret…



I like your use of the word 'bully'. It does seem to fit some of the replies i've seen, to many people here, not just yours.

It seems to happen however when a good or a well thought out point is made, rather than when a simple flippant comment is made.

I cannot help but think that in some cases (perhaps only a small minority) the tone comes out unintentionally, but when it is consistent and rude, well, it does seem rather bull-ish, and i mean that in a gender specific way- it seems more head on attacking rather than a catty - female - way of negative response.

The great thing about your posts are that the ARE well written out- VERY well organized (i'd love to know if you just spit this out like this or if you write and revise prior to posting), and the simple fact that you do elucidate so many points of your subject, it makes it easy to reply to each of those points in kind.

Now I grant you sometimes it goes much farther than simple intellectual debate, not to mention friendly, but I guess that just shows that CD in general pretty much do represent a fairly representative cross section of the public in general.

I know i want to reply to each point you make, not try and tell you you are wrong, but that i might be looking at things in a different way. I guess it can be a little irritating at times, and I am so sorry for that- you are a wonderful source of ideas to ponder, kind of like a 'lao tzu' of our CD 'community' (See, i did remember your comment on 'community'!:):)

We all grow up differently though, and what I might say for instance makes good sense given my framework of experience, but I might fail to realize that it might not makes sense to someone with a different background.

I'm NOT directing this at you- i know you are aware of this- but to the people that reply critically to what you wrote: they fail to realize the possibility of the idea they oppose might actually be true for someone other than their own context.

In that case, especially if they fail to try to understand a further clarification from you, then 'ignoring' is a totally valid action.

You can never please all of the folks. When i repaired medical equipment- clients LOVED to see me when i arrived to fix stuff. And I did so very well, regularly quicker and more attentive than their past service rep- or their regular one if i was covering another area. But I'd still get complaints, often from the clients I would have least expected. Same goes with students- on my introductory class- i work hard to create a fun environment to learn in- take the stress off worrying about grades... individual attention and such, I've got one of the highest average student approval ratings, but still get some rather antagonistic remarks in the student feedback forms.

Anyway- do please continue to post your very well considered essays!

-Kristi
:hugs:

[Frédérique]

I feel like dashing off a PM or two to explain my “position,” even though there isn’t one. This thread was merely meant to be a plea for non-TG MtF crossdressers to somehow have a “voice” on a site dedicated to crossdressers. The plea itself seems patently absurd, given the circumstances. May I suggest we all look in the hypothetical mirror and ponder who is in the “room” with us? Is that too much to ask for? I mean, I can embrace TG issues as well as the next girl – that’s a given, and I wouldn’t be HERE if I was not compassionate towards ALL types of crossdressers. It ain’t easy, no matter what your “approach” might be, or what your intentions are, according to the situation you have inherited, cultivated, or fabricated. I can dig it, OK?

I’m sure someone will now break off a piece of the above verbiage, match it up to a previous statement of mine, and attempt to discredit me in front of the gathered throng. Go ahead, you’re within the rules to do so, but you’re completely missing the point, my dear…
:straightface:


A big part of the trouble, I think, is that no one puts labels like "TS", "CD", or "TS Questioning" behind their names, and if you encounter a supportive post you might assume it comes from a CD when in fact it was posted by a TS.

I keep thinking about a person I met over on Rose’s Forum (in the UK) back in 2005. Her name was Lisa, and she was definitely TG, a strong “candidate” for TS, but I only saw her in the MtF section. She was alternately poised or highly emotional, happy or miserable, capable of reaching out to nearly every member on the site in some way, including me. One day, a new member lamented that she would always be a “mere” crossdresser, and never scale the “heights” towards actually becoming a woman. Lisa posted a reply along the lines of “Same here! We’re all just plain-old crossdressers, so make yourself at home…” This was an amazing statement coming from such a person, and it struck a chord with me which echoes within this thread. You know, a lot of people never declare what they ARE, which is kinda cool, in a way…

I just wish to add that I have many supportive TG, TS, and FtM friends on this site. I’m NOT insular… :battingeyelashes:


…I can agree with you that there is a simple joy in doing those little things that give us satisfaction and happiness, even if they are infrequent, noncommittal, or non-TG. Like you, I just have a little fun now and then and it makes me happy.

I think there is plenty of room here for these “non-committal” types, and, since they are amongst us anyway, their personal relationship to crossdressing needs to be respected. As I alluded to earlier, I respect transgendered individuals without hesitation – not to do so would be akin to fouling my own “nest,” however intangible it may be. However, a lot of crossdressers JUST crossdress…


In that case, especially if they fail to try to understand a further clarification from you, then 'ignoring' is a totally valid action.

Sara Jessica made an excellent point earlier about “ignoring” certain members being detrimental to the discussion at hand, or any discussion, for that matter. I can’t speak for everyone, but if I have nothing supportive to “say,” via carefully-chosen words, in someone else’s thread, I don’t try to post in it. I figure the discussion won’t benefit from what I have to say, so I stay out of it. Oh, I can read a challenging sentence, get angered enough to respond, and then zip off a quick post that irks everyone, but, most of the time, I don’t get involved…

I don’t want to soil my effeminacy by getting mad (a masculine characteristic, IMHO) at a troller. Enter the ignore list. Also, I don’t have the time to dissect someone’s post, or thread OP, and go over it line-by-line like I’m the self-appointed Dean of the College of Transgendered Behavior correcting a thesis. I can distinctly recall typing a similar sentence to that last one on at least three other occasions, but, check it out – I just HAD to do it again! I really think I’m being tested, and I wonder why. It doesn’t matter how well I try to write these things, or how well I try to pull together all of the necessary bits vital to the topic at hand, some people will inevitably judge me as soon as I don my panties and step into the room! Tell me – is this prejudice useful, within the context of discussion, or does everything have to inevitably derail via personal attacks just to please everyone (except me, that is)?
:idontknow:

You’d be surprised at how many messages of support I get during these unintentional “skirmishes,” from “just” crossdressers and TG individuals alike. It’s an issue that exists, like it or not. Perhaps I’m opening eyes and minds to a hidden reality here, but that was not my intention at all – I just wished to voice concerns along the lines I have already transcribed, and give further voice to those who crossdress for pleasure, usually in the shadows, somewhere in the far corner of the community. We deserve to be heard and respected, just like everyone else...

[antonia_bee]

I think you have raised an interesting point, but I personally identify as a crossdresser. If that means that I am transgenderd, then so be it. I happen to love being a man, and I have no desire to change that. I just happen to be a man that feels comfortable painting my nails, or shaving my legs etc. In fact, when it comes to shaving, I feel that I almost 'must' do it. That my legs or chest appear weird with hair!
I also take care of myself, I moisturise and shape my eyebrows. I invest in high quality grooming products, and I enjoy getting ready to go out. Male or female!

I have worked out that although I enjoy these 'girly' things, I am still a guy. I enjoy the role I play in society and I am not interested in living as a girl. But putting on the occasional dress, or pair of tights, oh yes, now we are talking!

[Rebeccarabbit]

Hi personally for my input would say like Angela I would be happy being called "Transgendered".........I may have originally started Cross Dressing many years ago, but that was because it felt right at that time, and at that stage I had not fully explored all the Avenues, or got to experience everything that goes with it and the feeling that is within. We all evolve and change, so why do we have this constant need to put ourselves into a label or bracket ? Sure, accept and enjoy it, but one should never restrict something that does change over years..........

becky xx

[VeronicaMoonlit]

but I guess that just shows that CD in general pretty much do represent a fairly representative cross section of the public in general.

Yes, that applies to the transgendered community as a whole as well. Remember not everyone here I identifies as a CD, the partners/SO's surely don't. :-)


but that i might be looking at things in a different way.

That's what I do, in context of what I've seen over the years. I'm trying to bring the perspective of transgender community online history here.


I'm NOT directing this at you- i know you are aware of this- but to the people that reply critically to what you wrote: they fail to realize the possibility of the idea they oppose might actually be true for someone other than their own context.

While I'd agree to a certain extent, there are also "patterns" and "archetypes" that are there to see. Which is one reason why there's so much repetition here. History repeats because there are people who's "transness" is very similar to certain archetypes in the past.


Anyway- do please continue to post your essays!

I agree, but she shouldn't expect to not receive "some" criticism, sometimes. Especially from oldbies. (I know another message board that's almost entirely oldbies, quite different in tone from here.

Let me respond to a few other points made, this will be haphazard, since I didn't take the time to multi-quote, so things won't be in what I think of as the "proper threaded timeline way".


They actually take the time to pop the little children’s joyful balloons, steal their candy, and act all important as some sort of established standard for how MtF crossdressing OUGHT to be.

This is not the first time you've referred to the community here using terms used for children or little girls. We are not children to be infantilized in words or otherwise. And most of the people here don't identify as "little girls".


You CAN dress for pleasure, and it IS a valid form of crossdressing.

I most certainly agree wholeheartedly!! I have online friends who are longtime "pleasure crossdressers" who don't have the "gender angst" and I'm glad they don't.


since few people come right out and state “I’m THIS or THAT...”

That's a very good point, ReineD mentioned it as well. Personally I don't think that we don't need to makeup new words as some would suggest or go back to using the older meanings as some others suggest. I think that we simply need to use MORE words to describe ourselves and be "direct" with our words. And we must also realize that words and people change all the time, and that trying to stop change, as the old King Canute myth of trying to stop the waves elucidated...is futile.

Perhaps we should be inspired by scientific nomenclature. For example a domestic cat is not just "Felis Catus" in Latin, it's really:

Kingdom: Animalia (meaning an animal, not a plant thingy that uses chlorophyll)
Phylum: Chordata (with a nerve column sometimes within a spine, subphylum is vertebrata)
Class: Mammalia (warm blooded, nurses young with boobs)
Order: Carnivora (meat eater)
Family: Felidae (Feline cat type creatures overall from big to small)
Genus: Felis (small cats)
Species: Felis catus (Kitty! Hello Kitty! You're a Kitty, yes you are!) (can you tell I have a cat?)

So one might be: Transgendered, Permanently Non-transitioning, Crossdresser, Fetishist, Single-garment, pnaties

or: Transgendered, Temporarily non-transitioning, Transsexual, Lesbian oriented, Late transitioner

or for partners/SO's: Non-transgendered, Significant other, married, wife.

It's one of the reasons why I say we need to "use our words" more.


I DO care what others think, but if I don’t preserve ME at all costs I will lose the world – crossdressing is a selfish enterprise, to be sure, so I get a little miffed when someone tries to shake someone else’s foundation.

People change and grow, and sometimes they need their foundations shook to do so. We aren't static beings.



Freddie, you are an intellectual gunslinger...same as me And the one thing about gunslingers is -- they get shot at and sometimes get shot.

That's an apt metaphor indeed.


Most people in the "community" I've found don't look down on you. Maybe it is my naiveté, but I've been blessed to have found a very positive community of people across the spectrum who have been supportive and ready to educate me about the many things I don't know.

Exactly!

I also like this post by ReineD: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?176843-How-many-of-us-are-JUST-crossdressers&p=2888981&viewfull=1#post2888981

Very insightful and good questions.




[The people on my ignore list are there because they insist on taking my writing apart, sentence by sentence, inserting critical comments, and not offering one word in the way of original thought (for discussion). I don’t WANT to ignore them, but...well...are you familiar with the word “bully?” It troubles ME that the ones causing me to act so drastically are the last ones to be aware of THEIR injurious words, or to display a conscience by way of apology or regret…

Since you refer directly to my posting method, which is actually common to USENET and how I organize my thoughts. And since I am the one who heavily used it in response. I believe you are referring to ME. So isn't that an attack on me?



It is a personal choice and she admitted to using it. Not a big deal based on moderator's advice.

While I agree that it's a choice to use it, There's a difference between using it quietly and never mentioning it, and using it and constantly bringing it up that she's used it and using it more in many of the threads she starts. The latter is weaponizing it.


I know I’m being looked down upon by some because I’m a “mere” crossdresser (who writes about it), and, if I didn’t, I certainly wouldn’t bother trying to discuss this controversial subject...

You don't actually "know", you "assume". If you think I look down on you because you're "just a crossdreser" you are quite wrong. I don't. I don't disagree with you because you're a crossdresser, it's for other reasons that have nothing to do with how you identify. If you want to know why, just ask. That goes for anyone, if you really want to know why I disagree with Frederique so strongly on some, but not all things, just ask.

And I really like yet another ReineD post: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?176843-How-many-of-us-are-JUST-crossdressers&p=2889732&viewfull=1#post2889732


I can accept that many people hold the modern opinions concerning gender, and thus transgender.

You're 73 right? Words change, language changes...no one says "yowza yowza" or 23-skidoo anymore. Ideas change, and perhaps we change with them. Putting it bluntly, you're outnumbered by the moderns who see gender differently and no one is going to go back to the old way, because it wasn't working very well. Again putting it bluntly. Are things better now for transfolk of various stripes, or were they better in 1949 when you were young? I think we can all agree that things are MUCH better now and one of the reasons is that change in ideas and words I just mentioned. Fighting the changes is like being King Canute commanding the waves to stop.



I'm suggesting that your perception there is disdain or a better-than-thou attitude is one sided. ........ We've had obnoxious CDers too over the years, who've had their own attitude issues.

I agree!


What I do read consistently, is an attempt by the TSs to describe the difference between being a woman in a man's body vs. needing to use the clothing in order to feel feminine, and feeling feminine only part of the time. This is not saying that one is better than the other, in my opinion, just different.

Exactly.


A big part of the trouble, I think, is that no one puts labels like "TS", "CD", or "TS Questioning" behind their names, and if you encounter a supportive post you might assume it comes from a CD when in fact it was posted by a TS.

Right, which is why I think we need to use our words more and use more descriptive words to describe ourselves so there is less confusion about how someone identifies.



This thread was merely meant to be a plea for non-TG MtF crossdressers to somehow have a “voice” on a site dedicated to crossdressers.

But they DO! Crossdressers easily outnumber the TS identified, and post a LOT more. I don't understand how much more of a voice you want? But then again, by "crossdressers" you seem to mean the kind that doesn't go out or have some kind of transgender identity in any way. And those who do go out do post quite a bit.


However, a lot of crossdressers JUST crossdress…

Indeed, I've never said otherwise. In regards to real world groups, which are a self-selected subset of the community and not representative of the people here, I tend to see it this way: About 1/3 the members are never going to transition, they're confortable with the maleness. about another third have no real opinion either way though some may have some issues, the last 1/3rd are what I call Proto-TS's they have the gender angst, but most probabgly aren't going to transition because of things like family and such.


I can’t speak for everyone, but if I have nothing supportive to “say,” via carefully-chosen words, in someone else’s thread, I don’t try to post in it. I figure the discussion won’t benefit from what I have to say, so I stay out of it.

Interesting, thank you for posting that. Personally I believe that disagreement can add additional insight to a discussion.. What's the point if every response is a "Ditto", we learn from those who think differently from us.


I don’t want to soil my effeminacy by getting mad (a masculine characteristic, IMHO) at a troller.

I consider that response EXTREMELY chauvinistic and misogynistic, and I am VERY offended as a feminist. Do you think women don't get mad? My mother would get mad, my sister would get mad. I bet the SO's on these boards get mad, in fact some of them have stated that they're mad about something. That's almost a 50's mindset you got there: "women get angry, the are creatures of feminine goodness and purity, and they all want to be nurses and schoolteachers so we don't have to let them become firefighters or street cops, we shouldn't let them run for political office either, it will sully their purity" You get what I'm saying?


Veronica

[ReineD]

Oh boy. Veronica, I've just taken a lot of stuff out from your post that would have been best said via PM (as you requested) and I will send you same.

To others, I did my best to remove the personal remarks addressed to various individuals. I may not have removed every little thing (comments on your various motives or character), but I did my best. It took me 20 minutes so far.

I've also removed every instance that I could find of bringing in old business from other threads, or mentioning members who haven't even posted in this thread, since this is severely off topic.

I know that Veronica's post is rather long, but I gather she has a lot to say so please as always, no criticism of the style that people use to communicate. Focus instead on the message.

And last, Veronica you quoted me several times. I want to say that I've read compelling posts in this thread that are causing me to change my views *once again* that everyone "must" be TG. There are indeed people who do see themselves fully male and no one has the right to say that they don't. The idea that we all assign different definitions to the same term is a separate issue and it does not impact someone's gender identity.

[ReineD]

I've just received a request from the OP to close this thread, and I agree. Everyone who had anything to say has likely already posted it.