Cowboys and bikers

[Lorileah]

We all wear uniforms daily. You may not think about it but you do. Those uniforms elicit mental responses from everyone you meet. You make a judgement. Do you ever wonder if your judgement is correct? Or do you just assume that what you see is what you believe about the uniform?

Here in Colorado, wearing a cowboy hat and boots is common. And yet the majority who wear them have never done a day's work on a ranch. Never roped a steer. Never even rode a horse that you don't have to put a penny in. Yet no one questions why they wear those clothes. And most know that the person in the hat, jeans and boots probably doesn't sing around a campfire and cook beans.

You see people in leathers. They may have caps and vests. They likely do have some sort of motorcycle. But they are not members of "gangs". OK not gangs but clubs. Half don't even ride Harleys (Honda Gold Wings are very common).
(which brings up another thing, when I said "leathers" you probably immediately thought Marlon Brando Hell's Angels. How about racing leathers? You can have the jacket and not even own a bike because the colors are cool).

You can wear a Brooks Brothers suit and not work wall street. You can wear a sleeveless denim shirt and not be Springsteen. 90% of sports fans have a shirt with a name on the back. They aren't John Elway (he wears the suit).

See what I am getting here? These things you see everyday. You know the people wearing them are not what you assume the outfit belongs with. So why is going out in a skirt or dress or heels different? Do you think that when the guy puts on his leather chaps and vest he worries that he will be mistaken for a Bandito? (around here they are more Tostitos). He might want to be thought of as that but he isn't. In a long around way, I am saying that what you see daily is just window dressing. I am not saying wear clothing that is not appropriate for the venue (although here in Colorado Boots, snap shirts and Stetsons are common at the opera). You also don't go into a biker bar that is known for being a place where the clubs hang out and order a Shirley Temple. You do have to use some common sense.

Our biggest obstacle is that we worry about how we are seen. We allow the stereotype image to win. When you act like you belong where you are, very few even think twice. They own the stereotype. Sure you will get glances. You will even get mumbled comments. It happens to the Bikers and the Cowboys too. But they just go with it. They have done it so often that they don't give it a second thought.

[Chickhe]

I agree with most of what you said, but people also wear that stuff because of how other people react to them. The person in biker clothing wants to look like a biker and does so because it provides a shield... wearing texas style clothing also tells people you fit the stereotype...so they should respond accordingly. Wearing female clothing also has this purpose...you want to be viewed as a woman and treated as one. There are some people who don't look good in biker or coyboy uniforms and some people also don't look right in female clothing....this is where work is required to elicit respect instead of ridicule.

[kimdl93]

I used to wear a cowboy hat and still wear the boots on occassion. But, in my defence, I grew up raising cattle, and my kickers have been ankle deep in it. So, I feel reasonably authentic in that outfit. Oddly enough, I'm feeling more authentic each day in my feminine outfits too. I think its true, you need to work at presenting so that you can elicit respect inspite or ridicule and, have enough self respect to ignor the ridicule if it comes.

All this reminds me of an old old Smothers Brothers skit:

"I see by your outfit, that you are a cowboy;

You see by my outfit, that I am one two.

We see by our outfits, that we are both cowboys.

If you had an outfit, you could be a cowboy too!

[RADER]

Very well said; Both Chickhe and Lorileah have made valued points on how we are seen
by the clothes we wear. The only thing is society has put a "Taboo" on a man wearing a dress,
while he still looks like a man. As Chickhe said,
Wearing female clothing also has this purpose...you
want to be viewed as a woman and treated as one. Is very true, and the one reason many men have the
presumption that anything female makes them sub-man in the sense of the word.
Society has a long way to go; And man in general has to still put up with the reticule of him wearing
something other than men's clothes.
A side note: You say that singing songs around a camp fire and eating beans, well If you eat enough beans,
you will be singing from the opposite end, If you get my meaning. An old saying..."Eat beans, America needs the gas"
Rader

[kellycan27]

If I may............. What if that guy is wearing a pink cowboy hat and cowboy shirt with sequins? Or the biker guy wearing a lace up leather vest with darts and breast forms, his jeans with flowers embroidered on the back pockets?

Kel

[Babette]

I see your points Lorileah. People choose the styles they wear for a variety of reasons and I say, to each their own. Perhaps the differences in your analogies boil down to functional verses fashionable. A true cowboy's attire evolved from their working environment's needs. A fashionable cowboy (or cowgirl) is trying to make a statement of style. Bikers (like the little mouse here) wear heavy leathers to save their hides during a crash. Road rashes can really hurt! Grant it, leathers do carry a stigma regardless of their color. So if you want to make a serious statement, wear your leather chaps and jacket.


You know the people wearing them are not what you assume the outfit belongs
with. So why is going out in a skirt or dress or heels different?
It's probably no different. When I want to be fashionable, I'll will that killer skirt. However, functional means wearing women's slacks and jeans at times.:battingeyelashes:

Babette

[Lorileah]

If I may............. What if that guy is wearing a pink cowboy hat and cowboy shirt with sequins? Or the biker guy wearing a lace up leather vest with darts and breast forms, his jeans with flowers embroidered on the back pockets?

Kel

Then Kel, he is just strange. You know that :)

[Wildaboutheels]

The trouble with "Society" today, is that will accept ALMOST anything in shades of gray.

Except Gender Identity.

Be a Man. OR a Woman.

Just pleazzzzzzze don't wear any clothing that might make it hard to figure out which one. Can't be having that.

Luckily, things are changing.

Slowly but surely.

[Kate Simmons]

When I see folks dressed a certain way, I don't make judgment calls on them per se but just figure they like wearing what they are wearing. You've given me an idea though. I did get some pleasure from wearing my snap(cowboy) shirts and chambray shirts while en femme Think I'll start doing that again. I never got any weird looks when I did it previously. I guess folks just thought well another gal who likes to dress in chambray and denim. If course I had the obligatory girl curves to go along with it.:battingeyelashes::)

[Stephenie S]

When I see folks dressed a certain way, I don't make judgment calls on them per se but just figure they like wearing what they are wearing.

Yes you do. Almost everyone does.

When I was in college I took a job pumping gas at a gas station in my small New England town. (Does that date me, or what?) (LOL) Yes, for you young 'uns, people actually used to come out and pump your gas for you. You just waited in your car, and honked your horn if no one came quickly enough.

ANYWAY, back on topic. I was just a dumb broad pumping gas, right? I knew very little about cars and engines. But when the station gave me a uniform with my name on the front and the name of the station on the back, suddenly I could say the most outrageous things. It didn't matter that I knew no more than before. With that uniform, it didn't matter. People would ask me stuff and actually believe me when I answered. And that was just because of the uniform.

We do the same thing with any uniform. What people wear has a huge effect on how others perceive us. You guys are doing the same thing when you "dress". What you wear DOES count.

S

[Cynthia Anne]

I love your train of thoughts here! Ya aint'nt cowboy 'til ya done that eight second ride! Well I've done the eight second ride and hav' the scars to prove it! Today I'm on a much different ride with many bumps and scars to suffer along the way! And the dress may not make you the girl but it does protrait the image of one! So we should all have the same rights as the business man that has his boots on! Hugs!

[UNDERDRESSER]

"Tostitos" LMAO!

Don't forget the other type of biker, cyclists. Quite a few of us wear full racing kit of our favorite team. i never have, 'cuse i could never get a Marche lotto strip in size, ...loved the colors.....

And i do wear womens shorts sometimes, though you'd never know. Of course if you do wear the outfit, you'd better have the legs to go with it, or some heavily laden commuter type is gonna leave you humbled in the dust!

[Foxglove]

So why is going out in a skirt or dress or heels different?

It's very simple, Lorileah. Cowboys aren't bendergending. Bikers aren't bendergending. Wall Street types aren't bendergending (one of the few things they aren't doing.) But we are bendergending. And people don't like it. We're messing with their heads at a very deep level.

We have expectations of how the world works. Hold a book out it in your hand and let go. It will fall to earth, not rise to the heavens. The sun comes up in the East. Fish live in water. And men are men and women are women. When the world doesn't work as it's supposed to (or as we think it's supposed to) it can be disturbing.

I haven't got the best of backgrounds in the sciences, but when a popular physics book tells me that a table-top is mostly empty space, or when it explains about relativity or the double-slit experiment, it's messing with my head, because it's hard to fathom how the world could work that way.


Our biggest obstacle is that we worry about how we are seen. We allow the stereotype image to win.

I'd disagree with this. We don't allow the stereotype image to win. The people who hold the stereotype image allow it to win. With a bit of thought, they could get over it. There are all sorts of stereotypes in this world. I've never come across a stereotype that couldn't be corrected in the mind of the holder because there's always enough information available to us to correct those stereotypes for those who want to. They're often not corrected because people prefer to allow their emotions to rule their minds. Intellectually people are often extremely lazy.

Imagine how disturbing it would be if your dog suddenly started talking to you. Yet when we encounter talking animals in books, films, etc., we have no difficulty because we learn from a very early age it's just a convention of the arts. As regards TGism, there's plenty of information available these days to those who want to look at it. It would be very easy for them to see that the male-female binary is just a convention of society that is a distortion of reality. It's not our fault if they don't do that.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Kate Simmons]

In any case I never met a buckaroo or outlaw I didn't like (as Kate that is). Bad boys rule the saddles y'know. :battingeyelashes::)

[Lorileah]

I'd disagree with this. We don't allow the stereotype image to win. The people who hold the stereotype image allow it to win. With a bit of thought, they could get over it. There are all sorts of stereotypes in this world. I've never come across a stereotype that couldn't be corrected in the mind of the holder because there's always enough information available to us to correct those stereotypes for those who want to. They're often not corrected because people prefer to allow their emotions to rule their minds. Intellectually people are often extremely lazy.



However I think "we" do. More often than not the reason for not presenting in public is the internal fear. How many times do you see here that a person won' go out because they are afraid of what may happen. even after so many say it has never happened? I do understand that. Small town gossip is mean. But the fear of someone saying something OR even the fear of what they may think has kept more TG's in the closet than any real threat. "We" are our own worst enemy because we faer the light. If more TG's were seen, then less would be said.

[KellyJameson]

If reproduction was asexual where offspring arise from a single parent and inherit the genes of that parent only than there would be no such thing as crossdressing because there would be no opposite sex so the clothing would not be about what group you belong to according to biology but only
about what social group you wish to identify with if any.

Sex is bound up in the clothes but this would stop if everyone crossdressed, once everyone crossdresses there will no longer be crossdressers.

[Kaz]

Hi Lori, great thread as usual!

I find that a lot of these 'styles' are akin to 'tribes', forms of social groupings that say I am one of these 'guys'. When they have social legitimacy, it is accepted. Some tribes are radical, eg punks in the early days, teddy boys if we want to go that far back...

Now guys in frocks...? Theoretically it should work as a tribal issue, but it doesn't does it? Well it does with us here as this is my 'tribe', but Joe public still don't get it... it is a threat. And I guess we threaten both men and women.. So if we were all out and doing it it would become accepted by mass of numbers... so there is the argument for getting out there...

But most of us don't want the crap that goes with open display...

Hey-ho! Nor sure what I am getting at here... we are a paradox I guess?

[busker]

We all wear uniforms daily. You may not think about it but you do. Those uniforms elicit mental responses from everyone you meet. You make a judgement. Do you ever wonder if your judgement is correct? Or do you just assume that what you see is what you believe about the uniform?

Here in Colorado, wearing a cowboy hat and boots is common. And yet the majority who wear them have never done a day's work on a ranch. Never roped a steer. Never even rode a horse that you don't have to put a penny in. Yet no one questions why they wear those clothes. And most know that the person in the hat, jeans and boots probably doesn't sing around a campfire and cook beans.

You see people in leathers. They may have caps and vests. They likely do have some sort of motorcycle. But they are not members of "gangs". OK not gangs but clubs. Half don't even ride Harleys (Honda Gold Wings are very common).
(which brings up another thing, when I said "leathers" you probably immediately thought Marlon Brando Hell's Angels. How about racing leathers? You can have the jacket and not even own a bike because the colors are cool).

You can wear a Brooks Brothers suit and not work wall street. You can wear a sleeveless denim shirt and not be Springsteen. 90% of sports fans have a shirt with a name on the back. They aren't John Elway (he wears the suit).

See what I am getting here? These things you see everyday. You know the people wearing them are not what you assume the outfit belongs with. So why is going out in a skirt or dress or heels different? Do you think that when the guy puts on his leather chaps and vest he worries that he will be mistaken for a Bandito? (around here they are more Tostitos). He might want to be thought of as that but he isn't. In a long around way, I am saying that what you see daily is just window dressing. I am not saying wear clothing that is not appropriate for the venue (although here in Colorado Boots, snap shirts and Stetsons are common at the opera). You also don't go into a biker bar that is known for being a place where the clubs hang out and order a Shirley Temple. You do have to use some common sense.

Our biggest obstacle is that we worry about how we are seen. We allow the stereotype image to win. When you act like you belong where you are, very few even think twice. They own the stereotype. Sure you will get glances. You will even get mumbled comments. It happens to the Bikers and the Cowboys too. But they just go with it. They have done it so often that they don't give it a second thought.
you are trying to compare apples and oranges and they simply don't compare. A guy wearing a skirt simply doesn't compare to a biker in leathers which for most would be functional dress and a skirt is hardly functional for a guy. second, if I see a cop in uniform, I'm assuming he is a real cop, if I see a guy in a skirt, I can't make that assumption.
You are trying to make an objective comparison but the views by other people are SUBJECTIVE--filtered through their eyes, their minds and their cultural upbringing. The way we describe things (2 buildings, for example) is much different from the way that we INTERPRET things (two guys kissing on main street). we live in society that is resistant to change in most ways and they are not going to see us in a way other than how they have been socialized to see us.
We all have stereotypes that we work from--labels is what some people call them--and yes, generally if I see a biker, I'm trying to be invisible because out in California they have a presence and reputation that could be very bad for one's health.

[SarahLynn]

.... Sex is bound up in the clothes but this would stop if everyone crossdressed, once everyone crossdresses there will no longer be crossdressers.

Oooooh dang that hurts my head to think about it.

I agree though, but lets not think of it as a uniform but rather as camafluge. If i go to Denver or most points west of the Mississippi i wear boots, jeans, snap close shirts and one of my Stetsons. I no longer have a bike (Gold Wing) so my leathers are stored away until my son decides if he wants them. I live in the midwest but don't own a pair of bibs because i'm not a farmer. If i lived in the south i'd not take to dipping chaw because i've given up on tobacco. If i lived on the North Slope i'd wear a seal skin parka, pants, and mukluks because they are much warmer then any man-made materials.

[Foxglove]

However I think "we" do. More often than not the reason for not presenting in public is the internal fear. How many times do you see here that a person won' go out because they are afraid of what may happen. even after so many say it has never happened? I do understand that. Small town gossip is mean. But the fear of someone saying something OR even the fear of what they may think has kept more TG's in the closet than any real threat. "We" are our own worst enemy because we faer the light. If more TG's were seen, then less would be said.

Lorileah, what you're expressing here is a view commonly expressed on this forum, but you're talking about two different things. One is whether a person gets out or not. The other is what people think of us. And the first doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the second.

Joe Jerk doesn't like TG people. Whether he actually sees any TG people in the flesh or not, he doesn't like us. He's a bigot. There are plenty of bigots in this world who aren't going to change their minds no matter what you do.

As I've said before on this forum, I recently saw a survey of American, LGBT high school students, 90% of whom reported having been bullied and harassed at school over the last year. Are we really going to say that those kids are their own worst enemies?

"We" are our own worst enemy? No. I'm not my own worst enemy. Our enemies are those who don't like us. Don't put this on us. Let's not try and make a guilt trip out of this. When someone is a bigot, that's their fault, not ours.

The common argument is that the more we get out, the more people will come to accept us. I myself think that's a plausible argument. But it still doesn't make it our fault if people don't like us. Nor does it make it our fault if we have some fears and doubts and worries. (See my recent thread, "We Have Nothing to Fear but Fear Itself".) The fault lies with those who despise and harass us, because they do give us good reason to have those fears, doubts and worries.

Sometimes you need to be brave and face up to your fears. That's very true. But in no way does it excuse those who give us reason to be afraid. They're still bigots, and they're still jerks. And they're still our worst enemies, not us. Let's not go blaming the victim here. Blame the bigots, not the ones who are uncertain as to how to make them stop being bigots.

Lorileah, I know what fear is. It was my constant companion when I was a child and a teen. And, as you may have noticed, it rubs me a bit wrong when we blame someone who's afraid, rather than the one who's making him afraid. Yes, we need to get over our fears. But that doesn't make us our own worst enemies. I personally reserve my wrath for bad people, not decent people who are afraid of bad people.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[noeleena]

Hi,

Now did i join the groups im in because of the clothes they wore when i first saw them or because of the people or they had an interest in those clothes of that time.

3 groups im in all different,

Renaissance 1400 to 1700, S C A world wide

Edwardian 1900 to 1910 ,

Scottish, soc. world wide as well.

now in those cases we dress differently both men & women yet we have things incommon

Yet i can wear my Renaissance garb down the street & on Planes, as iv done & i drive dressed that way as well. were theres many people. nice comments as well.

Yet as a point i would rather wear my Renaissance garb than my normal day wear, & thats just by my self no groups involved. yes i know i stand out , well its neat. im not conforming to a group am i its a stand alone.

as no one will answer this, can or do others do this. dought it......is there any one who dress's so differently like my self.??.

...noeleena...

[daarleane]

Yes you are right about that, when my boy was going to college he worked part time at a drugstore where among other things they sold camera equipment. He said people would come in and ask him all sorts of questions about this stuff, which he knew nothing about. But, he would answer their questions and they would go away happy. It is amazing, what a uniform or a position behind a counter will accomplish. People just assume you know what you are doing. Of course, this makes me very nervous about those people wearing white lab coats. Do they really know what they are doing?

[Marlana]

Damn! Now I can't do either of those.

[Wildaboutheels]

You know, a funny thing about cowboys...

How on earth do THEY get away with wearing 1-2 inch heels? Anyone have a theory as to why they need those?

Do they even make "cowboy boots" WITHOUT big heels?

Maybe having that sharp angle at the back of the heel makes them "OK"?

Ah, the mysteries of the fashion world.

[Foxglove]

You know, a funny thing about cowboys...

How on earth do THEY get away with wearing 1-2 inch heels? Anyone have a theory as to why they need those?



Perhaps so that the heel will fit over the stirrup and help them keep their foot in place? Without a heel I think their boots would always be sliding out of the stirrups.

[Badtranny]

I talk about this all the time Lori. We all have our drag. I used to call my motocross outfit my moto-drag, what I wear to work is my work-drag. The only time I'm not in drag is when I'm not dressing for a particular purpose or going for a particular look. When I put on boots, leather jacket and jeans, I call that my butch-drag. etc etc.

Life is a drag baby, and those that are too timid to participate can just enjoy watching us have all the fun.

[Alice Torn]

Good thread, and good replies. a lot of food for thought. Fear can be a friend or foe.

[cdterri]

I wear my cowgirl hat,boots,and jean jacket with a squaredance skirt and crinolin. I also wear my leather biker jacket over my dress if weather dictates. Wonder where I fit in?

[Lorileah]

you are trying to compare apples and oranges and they simply don't compare. A guy wearing a skirt simply doesn't compare to a biker in leathers which for most would be functional dress and a skirt is hardly functional for a guy. second, if I see a cop in uniform, I'm assuming he is a real cop, if I see a guy in a skirt, I can't make that assumption.

Actually apples to pears. And although you may believe that many dress for "function" as you say, here we see many who dress for look. Cowboys here in Colorado especially. When the only horse they ride has a V-8 and is convertible. Their range cooking is done over a gas grill. Biker looks are the same. On any day you will see people in leather jackets, some even sporting some sort of fake club insignia (think Wild Hogs movie) and then get on a Honda or Victory (both of which are made to sound throaty but not exactly like a Harley). How many kids do you see in extra long basketball shorts? Functional? Only in as much as they cover things best unseen. And I am sure you have fake cops and fake military people especially in the El Aye area. Skirts are non-functional no matter what gender. They were originally made to keep the women from doing things (and the being lady like actions the same). The other function was to allow access for the dominant male easier (before pantaloons and such).




Joe Jerk doesn't like TG people. Whether he actually sees any TG people in the flesh or not, he doesn't like us. He's a bigot. There are plenty of bigots in this world who aren't going to change their minds no matter what you do. very true but the bullies will choose to bully on any reason they can, hair color, clothing, athletic inability. Bullies will be bullies. Case in point which fit this exactly is I knew a guy who dressed daily in cowboy boots with his jeans plugged in the tops, a duster and a shabby stetson hat. When he could he carried a holster and sometime a six-shooter. He grew a mustache. He had never thrown a steer, he had never ran a fence, he had never even ridden a horse. His look said he had but he had no experience with cattle, horses or any livestock (and thus never made it into vet school). He was mocked and chastised daily. But he kept going. I don't know what happened to him but maybe he works as a gunfighter in an amusement park now. He was a target. The same is for the kids who claim to be bullied in school. Many are not transgender (even though the study focused on that) they missed a larger portion who were bullied for being short, tall, Goth, effeminate, butch, smart, not as smart, poor. Bullying, as I remember it, was an equal opportunity hobby.

Are we really going to say that those kids are their own worst enemies? See above because most of what they are bullied for are things they cannot control or change (height, weight etc.) and add the fact that they are in an age where peer pressure is a major issue. As adults, we have more control and hopefully more maturity (if any of your adult friends bully someone I would hope as an adult you correct them).
When someone is a bigot, that's their fault, not ours. Correct, but we have a social obligation to educate them


Let's not try and make a guilt trip out of this. The guilt trip is for the people who complain that they "can't do" something because they perceive a threat that is either not real or far less a threat than they believe


But it still doesn't make it our fault if people don't like us. Who doesn't like you? There are plenty of people who don't like me for many reasons. I don't hide because I disagree politically with them. I don't hide because I don't agree on religion.
Nor does it make it our fault if we have some fears and doubts and worries. (See my recent thread, "We Have Nothing to Fear but Fear Itself".) The fault lies with those who despise and harass us, because they do give us good reason to have those fears, doubts and worries. Some things yes, more no. No different than any other minority in history. But by staying hidden we are not addressing issues. It isn't easy, ask every minority in history. In your own country, it is religion. It has been going on for over 100 years. It is "Better" but you and I know it isn't better, just less bad. However, if those who were bullied and subjugated had not stood up where would they be? It would not even be less better, it would probably be worse.


Blame the bigots, not the ones who are uncertain as to how to make them stop being bigots. There is only two ways to stop someone from being a bigot and since violence is not something I condone, that leaves education. In the US black people educated the whites to show them that in the grand scheme of things they were equal. Has this eliminated racism? No. But as time goes by the bigots decrease as more people learn. How do "we" educate in the closet? Hard to make people believe we are "normal" when we ourselves believe we are abnormal.

[Stephenie S]

There's a great T-shirt in the latest Sundance catalog.

It says in nice big letters. "WHERE HAVE ALL THE COWBOYS GONE?"

If I thought I looked good in T-shirts, I would get it. Well, maybe not. It costs $40.00, pretty steep for a T-shirt.

S

[Lorileah]

It says in nice big letters. "WHERE HAVE ALL THE COWBOYS GONE?"



I believe most went to California and are parking cars and pumping gas.