Sent Scurrying Home

[Bree Wagner]

After a bunch of positive outings I hit a big snag today. In a recent post about blending (here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?176901-When-quot-blending-in-quot-is-the-goal.)) I said my goal was to survive that first glance, and hopefully the second. I didn't even make the first today. As the lyrics go "Momma said there'd be day's like this" :sad:

My plan was to head out to the mall and mostly hit Macy's since I had a gift card burning a hole in my pocket. Several things ended up being different from most of my previous trips out.

First, when I was leaving I was sure I was forgetting something but couldn't put my finger on it. It hit me when I was in the dressing room and saw myself in the mirror; I had forgotten earrings. Not good, but probably not the end of the world.

Second, I had just run out of the foundation I had been using and was trying something new. I went from what was advertised as a light-medium coverage foundation to a medium-heavy version since I was concerned that my beard showed through too well even with beard cover on under the foundation. I think the new version is a much better color match for the untanned parts of me (chest mainly) but otherwise thought it may have been even more sheer than the other version.

Third, I tried a color I don't wear much of. I wore the dark blue dress you see below. Normally I stick to lighter shades, typically oranges and pinks, but this dress seemed to work so I gave it a shot.

On to the story. I got to the mall and headed in. I did a quick walk-around of a few places, quickly checked out the sale bins at VS, and headed into Macys. Grabbed a few things from the clearance rack of INC, one of my favorite brands, and headed into the dressing room. At this point I noticed the missing earrings, but didn't think much of it. None of the things I tried on struck me as worth the price. I hit a few more sale racks and had a handful of things to try on.

I headed into the dressing room. An older woman stepped out at the end of the hallway and was looking in the mirror. She turned around saying "What do you think of this?" But, by the time she had finished turning her words changed to "Oh my god, are you a man?" and she headed right back into her stall. This was from about 15 feet away. Needless to say, my confidence hit the floor.

Even though it shouldn't be my problem, the first thought I had was I don't want to cause anymore distress and I headed back out of the dressing room. I was also wondering what gave me away so quickly? I tried to keep my confidence up and find another dressing room because I really wanted to try on some of the things I had. Before I did that, I stopped by a pillar with a mirror and took a quick look at myself. The big and square jaw screamed "Man!" at me. I wonder if the earrings would have helped soften the jawline or draw attention away. I also thought "Ugh, there is clearly beard under there and the chest isn't so great either." Lipstick and hair said "Uh-uh" and that was it. Time to run along home. I put my stuff back on the rack and got out of there.

So, just a bad day? Maybe. Will it keep me from going out again? No, but it'll still be difficult to build up the confidence again. The real question is "Can I do better and how?" Another new foundation? Stick away from blue? Take extra time getting ready and double check everything? (I've recently been trying to cut down on the time it takes to get everything done). What else?

I'd love to get any advice or suggestions you can dish out. Please be honest and brutal if need be. I can take it! :D It's all in the name of getting better at the craft.

There are a few pics below for you to hound on. (High res pics at Flickr link in my signature) The first is of my outfit before leaving. The other two are close ups of my face/chest after returning. One with flash and one without. I deliberately didn't smile for the face pics. I know it improves my image at least a thousandfold if I smile but while out it's hard to plaster that grin to your face at all times. I doubt I was scowling when I got read but I probably didn't have a goofy grin either.

Thanks for reading all this!

-Bree

[stacycoral]

Bree. girl you look in the close up pictures, i said it was bad timing, it sounds like you ran into one of those people that can't understand that we have a right to be in the world too. Girlfriend there is little we can do about a square jaw, be happy you don't have the apple trouble that some of us have. Take care, hugs.

[Alice Torn]

To be honest, I would suggest a different wig. Try one which covers your forehead with bangs, and which covers the sides of the face some, for a more balanced look. And dangling earrings. And higher eyebrow lines. Just my honest opinion.

[RADER]

Maybe put together a simple check list before going out; Like
Make-up, earrings, neck-less, etc.
You did not look like a man in the pictures, but in person, maybe
her intuition just clicked in.
Better luck next time.
Rader

[Voulez-Vous]

I'd love to get any advice or suggestions you can dish out. Please be honest and brutal if need be. I can take it! It's all in the name of getting better at the craft.

Honesty? Ok, here goes...
The wig isn't working at all for me. Looks too puffy in the front and doesn't frame your face in a natural looking way. Also, your brows need a lot of work. Also work on the 5 o'clock shadow.

[daviolin]

The first thing I notice is, the more you smile, the more feminine you look. :)
I also noticed that, your smile is your friend. Daviolin

[ReineD]

You asked for honesty, so I'll give you my observations based on having gone out for years with my SO dressed. These are also her observations.

First I want to say how attractive you are. You really are, you know. :)

Now for the rest. There are very few CDers who can be mistaken as genetic women in real life. It might be possible if they are young, small-statured, and possibly Asian, but it is rare for the rest of you and it has little to do with the clothes, jewelry, wig, or makeup, providing these things aren't off the wall which in your case they are not (other than maybe find a wig that suits you better, and work more with your eyebrows). There are several key reasons for being read, among them are the differences between male and female general body sizes and facial physiognomies. Male necks, shoulders, hands and feet are generally larger than women's even if both are the same height. Also the distances between a multitude of key points on the face are different for men and women (lip and nose, eyelid to eyebrow, mouth width, nose width, placement and shape of cheekbones, facial width, jaw lines, brow ridges, profile thickness, to name a few). This is why transsexuals who wish to be stealth get Facial Feminization Surgery.

All these things are apparent to the keen observer. But here's the thing: not everyone is a keen observer. Most people are too preoccupied with their own affairs to notice subtle, conflicting gender cues. To them, the more apparent cues are sufficient to not raise red flags, such as a wig, makeup, breasts, and appropriate clothing. Still, some people are better than others at reading even the subtle gender cues like the older lady you encountered, and they will read you right away.

Also, the minute you interact with someone for any length of time, they'll know that you are not a genetic woman, even if they hadn't figured this out before hand for lack of keen observation. When we talk to people we go through a multitude of facial expression changes, our heads tilt and they see us at several different angles, and also the voice is a pretty big giveaway.

As my SO went out more and more into the mainstream, she went through a phase, like you, of coming to terms with the fact that when she interacts with people, they know. But, she also discovered that when she speaks to people, her personality and general likeability shine through, and people (if they are not die-hard homophobes) generally are willing to respect her and like her for who she is. They do not reject her appearance.

So there has been a shift in my SO. In the beginning she was rather terrified of being judged as a man who wears a dress. She does pass well enough not to be read by most people that she does not directly interact with. But at the same time she no longer sits quietly in the shadows and she orders food, pays for stuff, engages in conversations with the people around her, and I believe she is now OK with the idea that people are OK with knowing that she is not a genetic woman, or at least they are polite enough to keep their opinions to themselves. Also, we've found that generally women are more open minded than men. My SO can still go out and be herself and she is not quite so loath to being read now, although she is still cautious of her surroundings. For example, we don't spend time in family restaurants where there are tons of kids or at malls on Saturdays that are filled with teenagers.

I hope that I haven't said anything to make you feel sad. I'm just trying to give you the benefit of my and my SO's personal experience. My SO goes out regularly, on average a few times per week.

[STACY B]

You took the words out of my mouth Reine about Saturday ,,, An Fourth of July Weekend !! I went to a festival an there were tons of people all over the road an out in general . So with that being said let them have there weekend an just get back to bizzness as usual after its all over . Cuz beleave it or not it makes all the difference in the world on how busy a store is an how much better it is when its not as crowded an all of us lady boyz can go an be left alone during the week an I always let the masses have it on the weekend .Just my thoughts ? But Im with the rest on the WIG,,,You can do so much better Im sure of it .

[Bree Wagner]

Thanks everyone for the feedback so far. I really appreciate it.

I'll definitely look into a new wig. While I've gone into stores and tried a fair number on before I haven't really splurged on the wig to get something amazing and everything I've tried has been under $100. Perhaps it's time to head somewhere a little more upscale and get the personal attention and spend a bit more on something special.

I tried to take some extra pics after getting home to compare all the old wigs I have and see if any of them work better than others. I'll get around to putting up those pics side by side at some point even though three of the six wigs are old, cheap, costume type wigs. They're good for a giggle!


I also want to add that you look amazing in that dress, and the old woman was very rude. I would love to be a fly on the wall if she ever pulls that stunt and happens to be wrong. :heehee:

Haha, thanks! I called my wife and told her about this and she had a similar reaction. She said that if she'd been with me (though she's not ready for that) she have run up to the woman and tried to bounce her through the wall with her giant pregnant belly.




First I want to say how attractive you are. You really are, you know. :)
Thanks. That means a lot coming from someone who's seen as much as you have.



As my SO went out more and more into the mainstream, she went through a phase, like you, of coming to terms with the fact that when she interacts with people, they know. But, she also discovered that when she speaks to people, her personality and general likeability shine through, and people (if they are not die-hard homophobes) generally are willing to respect her and like her for who she is. They do not reject her appearance.

So there has been a shift in my SO. In the beginning she was rather terrified of being judged as a man who wears a dress. She does pass well enough not to be read by most people that she does not directly interact with. But at the same time she no longer sits quietly in the shadows and she orders food, pays for stuff, engages in conversations with the people around her, and I believe she is now OK with the idea that people are OK with knowing that she is not a genetic woman, or at least they are polite enough to keep their opinions to themselves.

I hope that I haven't said anything to make you feel sad. I'm just trying to give you the benefit of my and my SO's personal experience.

This is really where I'm trying to get to in terms of interaction with people. Be friendly, have a good time, and blend the best I can even though I'm well aware of the things that can give me a away.

I don't feel sad at all. It's all good info that I can work with.

[Rachel Morley]

Well if you want total honesty, then I would say that your wig isn't doing you any favors at all. The center parting and the exposure of your forehead is not working for me. I think long bangs down to your eyebrows is the way to go. I would also tweeze your eyebrows into a thinner shape too (or hide them with the longer bangs). There's nothing any of us can do about our jawlines except perhaps try to disguise them by wearing a long wig (as you are already doing) but don't sweep the hair behind your ears like it appears you might be doing going on the pics. If I sweep my "hair" behind my ears or pull it back off my face I look way more "mannish". I like to keep my ears covered (see my avatar) as I think it softens my face. It's hard to tell about how good your foundation was/is but IMHO that's not what got you read as you said "An older woman stepped out at the end of the hallway" ... I don't know how long the hallway was, but I doubt she could see any beard shadow at that distance unless you had no makeup on, which clearly you did.

Everyone gets read sometimes. How many times have you been out without any issues? Remember these times and try to forget this outing.

[ReineD]

I also want to add that you look amazing in that dress, and the old woman was very rude. I would love to be a fly on the wall if she ever pulls that stunt and happens to be wrong. :heehee:

I think we should give this elderly lady a break. She was likely not raised in a co-ed environment, she likely knows nothing about the TG community, and Bree's presence in the changing room took her by surprise.

Bree, I spoke to my SO about your predicament and she suggested that the next time you are asked, "Are you a man?" in a ladies changing room, the best possible way to respond is to have the presence of mind to say, "I'm transgender. If this bothers you I can leave until you're finished using these rooms." This would then allow the person to either say, "Oh, that's all right", or ask you questions if she didn't know what "transgender" is, as alternatives to having her run back to her cubicle, frightened.

[Marleena]

Bree I think you have great assets but it's the male face that often gives us away. I see you were at a disadvantage with the makeup issues right from the start.

Have you ever had a professional makeover by a MAC employee or similar? A good makeup artist or TG transformation service can help out. Just explain your concerns and get their advice on how to look more convincing and hide flaws. That would be what I would do. In fact I need to find somebody nearby myself.:)

[Badtranny]

Bree my heart goes out to you, I remember feeling exactly that way.

RD's comments were spot on. If you really want to blend, then you have a lot of work to do. I like what you're going for with light and natural looking makeup, but you don't have the face for it. You are very good looking, no doubt, but your face is way too handsome to be feminine enough to try and be too discreet with the makeup. The best thing I ever did was seek out advice from pros, and not just one, but several. I eventually met Avital who has her own little makeup salon and she and I quickly became great friends. she taught me so much about makeup last year that my head is still spinning. Before my FFS, I had some of the same issues as you and there's two things you need to learn; color and contour. If you're serious then I would recommend hair removal as well. Talk to some laser places and get some ideas. Laser is much faster and you will be surprised at how much losing the beard shadow will feminize your face. In the meantime, don't pack on the foundation for beard cover. I used to have a two step process with a yellow stick and a reddish orange cream that I would put on before the concealer and then foundation that worked pretty well. The key with makeup is color. You must get the colors right for your skin tone. Your makeup looks good, technique wise, but you need more of it in the right places. Minimize your jaw, nose, and forehead to soften your face and good Lord do something with those brows. ;-)

You should meet somebody like MelissaRose, because she's a part timer who does a fantastic job with her makeup.

[Rachel Morley]

Bree, I spoke to my SO about your predicament and she suggested that the next time you are asked, "Are you a man?" in a ladies changing room, the best possible way to respond is to have the presence of mind to say, "I'm transgender. If this bothers you I can leave until you're finished using these rooms." This would then allow the person to either say, "Oh, that's all right", or ask you questions if she didn't know what "transgender" is, as alternatives to having her run back to her cubicle, frightened.
That's exactly what my wife advised me to say. Just say you're "a transgendered person".

[Bree Wagner]

I know the brows are also an issue. I'm working to thin them as best I can, gradually. Thinner, and a bit of shape, may get by, but anything that is clearly feminine while in guy mode would be a bit much at work and for my wife.


I think we should give this elderly lady a break. She was likely not raised in a co-ed environment, she likely knows nothing about the TG community, and Bree's presence in the changing room took her by surprise.

Bree, I spoke to my SO about your predicament and she suggested that the next time you are asked, "Are you a man?" in a ladies changing room, the best possible way to respond is to have the presence of mind to say, "I'm transgender. If this bothers you I can leave until you're finished using these rooms." This would then allow the person to either say, "Oh, that's all right", or ask you questions if she didn't know what "transgender" is, as alternatives to having her run back to her cubicle, frightened.

Ok, maybe saying older was the wrong word. Let's go with 50-55, not elderly. But that's not terribly relevant. It's definitely the right thing to do to say "I'm transgender", or something similar, and I was thinking about it on my way out in case it happens again. But this woman was quick! She was back in her room far faster than I could put my brain in gear.

Side Note: I just sounded like the president in my head. "It's the right thing to do!" Congress, pass this 'Don't say anything upsetting to TG folks' bill right away. It's the right thing to do!



Have you ever had a professional makeover by a MAC employee or similar? A good makeup artist or TG transformation service can help out. Just explain your concerns and get their advice on how to look more convincing and hide flaws. That would be what I would do. In fact I need to find somebody nearby myself.:)

I've done it once and wasn't terribly happy with the results. I really need to do more of this (assuming I have the courage!) and work on hiding the flaws. Getting more in-person advice would be fabulous.


If you really want to blend, then you have a lot of work to do. I like what you're going for with light and natural looking makeup, but you don't have the face for it. You are very good looking, no doubt, but your face is way too handsome to be feminine enough to try and be too discreet with the makeup.

No fair! How dare you compliment my rugged manly good looks! :tongueout

Gee, sarcasm doesn't look nearly as good in print as it sounds in my head.


The best thing I ever did was seek out advice from pros, and not just one, but several. In the meantime, don't pack on the foundation for beard cover. I used to have a two step process with a yellow stick and a reddish orange cream that I would put on before the concealer and then foundation that worked pretty well. The key with makeup is color. You must get the colors right for your skin tone. Your makeup looks good, technique wise, but you need more of it in the right places. Minimize your jaw, nose, and forehead to soften your face and good Lord do something with those brows. ;-)

You should meet somebody like MelissaRose, because she's a part timer who does a fantastic job with her makeup.

All good stuff. I've tried quite a few things for beard cover and am trying to find something that I don't have to paste on. I think I've tried orange lipstick, dermablend, and Five O'Sharp under varying foundations. I'm still searching for the right combo or product. I'll keep my eye out for those fantastic makeup users to tutor me :)

[Noemi]

Bree,

Your honesty with us is commendable. You are wonderful, and really are being useful here, to me, and many others no doubt. Thank you.

I would go with the wig, not working as well, I like the longer fuller wig with bangs, maybe a hair band, oh I can see you with pretty barrette too.

And you are a handsome man, but you in the kitchen in that blue dress laughing is pretty, and you have a good figure too. We all start at a disadvantage because, hey we are men. Shhhhh....but we can overcome this, not our fault.

♥♥♥
Noemi

[Kathy Smith]

I have the same problem with one of my wigs, Bree. Not many CDs can get away with a centre parting without a fringe (sorry, bangs - I'm thinking in English ;) ). There's something about the male facial structure that usually makes them look wrong. If I were you I'd have a look at a medium-length bob style. You may find that it softens your jaw line a little, even if it does cover your ears a bit more than you would like. Have a play on Taaz http://www.taaz.com/makeover/virtual-makeover.html to try out a few hairstyles.

[Michelle 51]

Hi Bree
Lots of good advice here.I think we often have the notion because no one said anything that we passed where for the most part people are too polite to say anything.I think you caught this lady off guard.I've also found that one bad experiance like this can destroy ten good outings where everything goes well.Sometimes I come home on cloud nine and others I feel like crawling because of a negative response.

[Thera Home]

To be honest, I would suggest a different wig. Try one which covers your forehead with bangs, and which covers the sides of the face some, for a more balanced look. And dangling earrings. And higher eyebrow lines. Just my honest opinion.

Hello Bree
First of all I must admire you on your courage.I agree with Alice and I also agree with Rene on the man vs woman body features. Do let it get a hold of you. My face is also a dead givaway. But, we do the best we can and can't forget we are men in womens fashions. So as for any actor we must continue to work the craft as we craftsmen know how to do so well. Best of luck and keep working it.

Thera

[DonniDarkness]

Hi bree

I wanted to say that from reading your post, the reason that you were sent scurrying home is because you psyched yourself out from the word go.

When you go out you need to be comfortable in the clothes and makeup you wear. You state that you were having a bad makeup and wardrobe day, that alone could start you off into a negative mindset. When we are out we cant let our negativity control our confidence and optimism.

The second thing id like to say is never ever let someone tear your confidence down. Bree, we are men who crossdress, if that lady clocked you as a man, you should never let it effect you. If your going to go out in drag you have to be equipped with the resilience to let things people say roll off your back. There are thousands of people like her in shopping malls, movie theaters, restaurants.......We as the out and about crossdressers cannot let people like her rule our self esteem....because otherwise we would never leave our closets..Besides When she said "omg your a man" you should have said "yup, and you were only 3 seconds away from getting fabulous fashion advice from a Drag Diva.....oh and OMG that dress is hideous"

Third. You just be you. the most passable you, is the you that is cool, calm, and confident.

Own it,
-Donni-

[Bree Wagner]

Thanks again everyone. This is exactly the kind of constructive criticism that can sometimes be hard to come by.

For now, I'm off to the mountains for four days of hiking some big mountains and disc golfing on a bunch of ski slopes. We'll see, maybe Bree will make an outdoor appearance, but changing in a remote campsite could be a challenge! On the 4th of July I'll be the tallest thing in Colorado unless someone taller than me is on the peak at the same time.

See you all in a few days and thanks again.

-Bree

[Cheryl T]

As Rachel Morley said, the wig is an issue. It's extremely difficult for anyone (let alone us girls) to wear a center part. It exposes so many things we prefer to keep hidden or disguised. If you can restyle the wig try it with whatever side is your natural part as that will always look the best.
I didn't see any indication of the beard showing through your makeup, but I would suggest smiling and also shaping your brows in some way so they are not so "Brooke Shields". That might work for her, but it doesn't for you and me.
The neckline on the dress and the necklace help draw attention down from the face so that's a plus. Earrings? Absolutely!! Something shiny and a bit noticeable (but not too) will distract the eye.

[TGMarla]

Hi there. I took a good look at the pics you posted, and a few things come immediately to mind. First off, you may well want to get a concealer of some kind, like Dermablend. Your beard does show a bit, even though you have to look hard to see it. Your upper lip has a classic male shape to it, brought about by your facial shape, and accentuated by your jaw. Your lips just aren't all that petite. If you look at the full picture of you, rather than the close ups, that wig is giving you away right off the bat. It's the shape of it on top. It's very round and poofy up there, but stops at the bottom of your ears, and thus draws attention to that area of your face - which is your jaw line. A softer shape, with longer tresses that go past that part of your head may draw the attention away from your jaw. I also agree that bangs all the way across your forehead would help a bit.

So it looks like your next outing might be a fun one.....wig shopping! :)

[Claire Cook]

Bree, As others have said, lots of good advice here. I'd second (or third) the suggestion about going to a MAC store. It was the first time anyone had really looked at my face, bone structure and complexion and explained from scratch what I needed to do and how to do it. They deal with TG types, as well as GG's with all sorts of situations, and I felt comfortable immediately. It certainly costs more than buying Maybelline, but I think well worth it -- certainly in terms of confidence. (I am still learning...) BTW, Melissa (who worked with me) mentioned that she'd recommend MAC stores over MAC counters in a department store. i don't know if they are better trained than the department store types, but I at least didn't have to sit in a department store with lots of folks passing by.

So have a great July 4th holiday!

[Barbara Ella]

Bree,

Sorry you had to encounter that person who has never encountered a transgendered individual. I dont get the feeling she was trying to be rude, just startled, and blurted out the first question that entered her mind. I bet she has seen pictures of a dude in a dress, but never encountered someone who was properly dressed, made up, and deporting herself as a woman. So her first thought was, Oh, a nice young woman who can give me an opinion on this dress. When the thought that you were a woman was questioned in her mind, she had to ask. So, in reality, I think of this as more of an initial compliment,followed by a first time shock. I hope maybe she felt bad later. Maybe it will be a learning experience and she will try to learn about what she encountered.

I always admired your avatar, knowing that my actual appearance is never as good as the one pic I put there. I have found the comments you have generated to be extremely helpful, so thank you for this honesty, it will help a lot of us.

I too have things to work on, and have stopped going out until I can address them. My choice, and I dont agree with it, but that's just my confused mind. Hope this will not deter you from continuing to enjoy you outings.

Hugs, Barbara

[Beverley Sims]

A shade lighter colored wig and a different style, try and keep that smile up, I know it can hurt after a while but your avatar is great.
I know you can't walk around with your head on one side all the time.:)
Destroyed confidence, that is hard and I feel sorry for you there.

[Flent]

Could it be that she clocked your walk, rather than anything specific about your clothes/hair/makeup?

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Bree, Your mirror can be your best or your worst friend.

[Leila Be]

Everyone has to give you a lot of credit for getting out there and being your CD-self. Rough day, but seems like you have the right attitude---get back on that horse, so-to-speak. LOL Better luck next time! :)

[Melissa Rose]

Hi Bree. It goes without saying, going out in public always comes with the risk of someone making a comment, giving you the eye or whispering among themselves. It is going to eventually happen, and the more you go out, the higher the chance it will happen. I suspect you caught the woman in the dressing room off guard, and the words were out of her mouth before she realized it. It was probably more of a rhetorical question. Since she quickly retreated back into the dressing room, I bet she was startled and did not know what to do. I think we have all be caught in social or public situations where we did not know how to react, what to do or what was acceptable to say.

I disagree with getting in her face about it. As others have suggested, stating you are transgendered, if a conversation occurred, would be the way to handle it. Leaving her with a negative (i.e., hostile) impression would not help matters much and would generate future fear if she ever encounters another transgendered individual. Taking the high road and defusing any tension or fear would pay much better dividends in the long run. She did say "are you a man?" and not "you are a man" so it was more of a question than a statement.

Another way to look at it is, does it really matters if she only thought it and reminded silent? Sure, you would not have felt as bad about it, but you still got read. Sometimes ignorance is bliss, but ignorance can also be dangerous. If she made a scene about it then that would be a different matter. IMHO, it was more she said something out loud than what she said. A comment about a GGs weight, appearance or other "negative" characteristic would have been just as inappropriate.

One thing to keep in mind about contouring with makeup is it does not make a masculine face look feminine, but makes it look less masculine. Contouring is all about light and dark and playing with shadows. Lighting makes a huge difference, thus contouring is more successful in pictures where lighting is controlled than face to face where you are working with ambient lighting (natural or artificial). Beard cover, unless it is caked on thus obvious, works only so well and for so long. After a few hours, the blue-black tinge of facial hair starts to show through. Again, lighting makes a big difference.

It's great you are getting back out there and not letting one setback knock you down too far. Even the best, fail sometimes.

[bimini1]

Do y'all feel that even though we are anatomically male, we even have the right to be in a women's changing station just because we are presenting as the opposite gender?
That just does not make sense to me.

[ReineD]

Do y'all feel that even though we are anatomically male, we even have the right to be in a women's changing station just because we are presenting as the opposite gender?
That just does not make sense to me.

We generally go by the customs of the society in which we live. And since gender flexibility has not been at the forefront in our culture, in fact it is still deeply closeted, society has been slow to acknowledge and embrace the idea that a small percentage of the total population experiences a need to present in the gender opposite than birth.

Although I'm all for education and I believe there is no better way to do this than to change laws giving the genetic males who need to express femininity access to spaces that have up until now been strictly allocated for women, I think it is wrong to blame the women who've had no exposure to the CDing and who have no way to frame it other than what they've read or seen in the popular media (which is not stellar in many cases), if they question a feminine looking man who is in the ladies changing room. If they saw CDers in there all the time it would be a different story, but they simply don't.

I think an excellent solution is for major department stores to follow the lead of the trendier boutiques. They have banks of changing cubicles at the back of the store for both men and women. This also makes it handy for couples who are shopping together, or a parent who is accompanying a different sex teenager. :)

[MissAva]

I agree that it's the wig. The center part and the puffiness don't work. On the wig in your avatar it has a side part and is smoother. To me, it is obviously a wig because of the color. It does not match your natural coloring. Try darkening your eyebrows with a brow pencil a bit and see if that helps.

[Flent]

Although I'm all for education and I believe there is no better way to do this than to change laws giving the genetic males who need to express femininity access to spaces that have up until now been strictly allocated for women

If we're being idealistic, wouldn't it be best if men were more accepting of crossdressers in their own dressing rooms?

I admit that if I saw a guy in a woman's dressing room (or bathroom) my first thought would be "pervert" rather than "transgendered", no matter what clothes he had on.

[ReineD]

If we're being idealistic, wouldn't it be best if men were more accepting of crossdressers in their own dressing rooms?


Well, there's that too! :)

But, I think that homophobic men will be the last to change.

[Megan70]

To be brutely honest, ditch the wig for a more realistic age appropriate style. Its to slick, stiff, at the part in the middle and it screams "MAN" to me.Its just to 'wiggy' looking ! I've been going out in public dressed for over 50 years and I have found that over the years the main determining factor of being read ' man' was an i appropriate wig. I have 3-4 now that are perfect for my age and face and get them professionally styled by beauticians who compliment and comfirm second opinion that it ' looks right. You can't do anything about the obvious square jaw but a shorter softer more frazzeled natural looking wig with earrings would draw attention away. You can do it, just tweek your face and hair and style some. Go Girl

[Lorileah]

To be brutely honest, ditch the wig for a more realistic age appropriate style.

Just how old is Bree and what would "age" appropriate be? I really dislike that phrase as we are as old as we feel. My wigs are long and vary in color from auburn to platinum. All are shoulder length.

Bree, get the wig styled. the middle part makes your forehead larger. The wig can be made to work, just have someone style it for you.

We all have bad hair/makeup days. It happens. And when things go south, we take them all the way to Antarctica. Maybe it was the weekend because I didn't like how I looked Saturday either. Blame the 100 degree plus weather.

BT gave good advice, it is about color and not thickness. Smoke and mirrors. Highlights and low lights. Darken what you want smaller (you think it is your jaw) and brighten what you want to "pop" (cheeks maybe? Between the eye lids and the brow). I use two to three different colors of foundation. Move the part of the wig to the side (instead of middle), fluff it some, sweep the forehead to soften it (Bangs are so 1980 but lowering the forehead helps). And smile. the smile photo looks wonderful.

Truthfully what my first thought was "why are you in my kitchen?" The floor and cabinet layout and color and stove placement are just like mine :)

(and continuing the off topic discussion...why is it that women in Men's restrooms are not Perverts but victims of not having enough stalls? Hopefully when your clothing is not covering "whatever" you are in a stall and no one sees it anyway)

[ReineD]

(and continuing the off topic discussion...why is it that women in Men's restrooms are not Perverts but victims of not having enough stalls? Hopefully when your clothing is not covering "whatever" you are in a stall and no one sees it anyway)

It's because of the differences in our sizes and physical strength. Historically, more men have raped women than the reverse and so women feel more threatened when they see men in their spaces. It doesn't occur to them (or they don't understand) about cross-gender identity and the natural reaction is to believe that a man is there for nefarious reasons, since most men that women know would not be caught dead wearing women's apparel.

There's a huge lack of education out there about gender non-conformity.

[Sam-antha]

For my contribution, a slighty shorter wig, not so dark tilted to one side to move that parting, nose, jaw line.
Query, the make up look in pic #1 is so very different to pic #2. What happened / lighting or what ?
~S~

[noeleena]

Hi,

Some interesting points raised. Im not sure i can see this from a males point of view or as one who dress's & out in public.

What has been raised is in how you interact with , in this case women in a close up eye to eye contact. even at 15 feet. .

Yes i know i have differences about what who i am so ill leave that,

now as you see in my pic i dont wear a wig just my head wear. no make up only lippy & eye brow liner. thats it. okay my face is different yet still masculine though most would say yes to that yet they see me as a woman yes i know that i am still.

One of my many women friends told me after watching me for some time . & told me she never saw me as any thing other than a normal women in how i walked interacted with others in my normal day to day activitys, she watched me for a bout 1 / 2 an hour if not more & has done so before, she's stright up to the point & no messing about .

Now my clothes most of the time are just my normal day wear, yet my point is its in how you project your self your demeaner, its you as a person okay the clothes can help yet thats only a miner part of the whole its the whole package . more so if your male features are more male ,

Now i dont pass or blend in yet what im being told is i do just not in a femminine way as many are, so we can be some what different so maybe the right make up colours eyebrows & as said a foundastion cover for the beard cover. i would look at a styled wig that suits you get help for that & make up as well not to hard a colour a bit lighter,

Okay allso as said you were coming in to our domain our granddaughter would have said to me had she seen you thats a man . so you see even though your dressed in womans clothes she would see through in her eyes the masqrade ,

Now make no mistake Dejarn has spent a lot of her life with us & been around trans people dresser's & many others so she knows . from a child who allso understands in her way what this is about, shes now 9 y 6 m.

this may help or just give you some thing to think about,

...noeleena...

[Bree Wagner]

Back from my trip and it was awesome. I even got some Bree pictures in the campsite. Anyways...


As Rachel Morley said, the wig is an issue. It's extremely difficult for anyone (let alone us girls) to wear a center part. It exposes so many things we prefer to keep hidden or disguised. If you can restyle the wig try it with whatever side is your natural part as that will always look the best.


I'll see what I can do about restyling or at least moving the part. Thanks to all who suggested it.


Bree,

I always admired your avatar, knowing that my actual appearance is never as good as the one pic I put there. I have found the comments you have generated to be extremely helpful, so thank you for this honesty, it will help a lot of us.

I too have things to work on, and have stopped going out until I can address them. My choice, and I dont agree with it, but that's just my confused mind. Hope this will not deter you from continuing to enjoy you outings.

Hugs, Barbara
Thanks Barbara. I do hope this thread has been useful to more people than me. Lots of good stuff here. I sure hope you get yourself back out there too. Your stories have been wonderful.


Could it be that she clocked your walk, rather than anything specific about your clothes/hair/makeup?

Hmm, I don't think she would have had the time to see me walking. However, I probably do have a manly 'strut' if I'm not paying attention. I'll have to think about that more when I'm out.


Just how old is Bree and what would "age" appropriate be?
I guess I wondered the same thing. Is the hairstyle to young/old? Does a hairstyle even have age?




Truthfully what my first thought was "why are you in my kitchen?" The floor and cabinet layout and color and stove placement are just like mine :)


It's my M.O. I sneak into other people's kitchens to take pictures and slip out with them none the wiser. Thanks for letting me borrow yours!



Query, the make up look in pic #1 is so very different to pic #2. What happened / lighting or what ?


The makeup is the same. Lighting (flash/no flash and maybe a bot of natural light) is the only difference.

[Paula_56]

We all have days like this, and I hate them. I often wonder why some days nobody notices a thing, and then other days you get "sir"

Just keep trying improving and evolving into the woman you want to be. Remember how awkward we looked when we started. All women have to work at being stlyish, pretty and feminine.

As for advice, I believe foreheads can be very masculine, I suggest bangs. That said you make a very convincing women,

[jillleanne]

The first thing I notice is, the more you smile, the more feminine you look. :)


Yep, I agree. And it's been said a million times, a smile is worth a million words. Your avatar pic looks very femme. I'm sure you have also read many times, it matters not what we do, or how well we do it. The probability of being read is simply a reality. We just aren't shaped the same, our mannerisms are different and without intentional practice and lots of it, we will be read. I get read all the time. I've just gotten used to it and think nothing of it. The part of it all I find the funniest is it almost feels like reality is travelling in slow motion when being read. Someone stares at me for 20 seconds trying to process it all in their brain and I can see it all happening at the time as if in slo-mo. lol I just smile at them and let them do their best impression of, " is that a ...............?" Sometimes I even get lucky and get a nice comment usually from a woman.

[wife stephanie<3]

You have probably already heard/read all this, but...I totally like the dress. I would wear that dress! I think some of it is a confidence thing. That woman made you feel bad and after that you wanted to run and hide. As for your eyebrows, I don't think they are that bad...I wax mine every 5 weeks when I get my hair done and I don't like the uber-feminine ones. I get mine waxed so it looks natural. Sometimes, I think they are a little bushy, but I want to look nice without having to try too much, plus I have two young children. I cannot tell you have chest hair either. I can tell you do have a square jaw line. I was doing some research on my own face (I have a fat round face) and looked up hairstyles that are flattering for any face type. Try to look at that advice and choose a different wig or take it to a stylist that might could re-style it another way. I like the color of the wig and it does look nicer than others that I have seen (it is not really shiny looking...more natural.) I hope this helps.

[wife stephanie<3]

Thought I would share what my husband said. When that women replied you were a man, you should have said "Not today ma'am." I really liked that.

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

I'll just bet she felt ashamed of her reaction to you once she had some time to think it over. I think that you looked just fine, a little better shaping of the wig would have framed your face better and concealed some of the "male look". The wig looks fine in some of your pics. Just the fact that you go out and try clothes on in the store is a plus for you, don't ever let anyone steal away your confidence. I would have said " Yes I am but I am trying to see how the other half lives, can you give me any pointers.

[Ms Mira]

Well, don't think I can give much advice regarding your look... though I do agree with the girls on here commenting about your wig.

I do think, however, you should try to base less of your confidence on passing as a genetic woman. Sometimes you will, sometimes you won't, and to some people you will and some you won't. *shrug* I'm not saying to stop trying, by all means doll yourself up till you feel great. I am just of the belief that in all situations true confidence comes from inside yourself and not what other people think of you. If it's based on what you think other people think of you, it's always going to wildly vary (and there will always be people like the woman who made that comment to you).

When you have more of an internal confidence (a "feminine confidence", as my BFF once described it as), then you'll be way more able to laugh bad days off instead of letting them drag you down.

[Bree Wagner]

Wow, just great to know I have so many boosters on here. I've been out since and am feeling pretty good (all the awesome news from my wife sure has helped too!) but it's wonderful to know that if I ever do lack that confidence to hit the town I can count on all of you to pick me off the floor. I really appreciate it.


Thought I would share what my husband said. When that women replied you were a man, you should have said "Not today ma'am." I really liked that. Hehe, I really like this too.


You have probably already heard/read all this, but...I totally like the dress. I would wear that dress! Hearing that from a woman is always a boost. Thanks! Too bad it's hard to do anything about the shape of my jaw and other parts of me while I apparently do fairly well with what's easy to change.

Also, wow does this post ever have legs!

[Rebecca Star]

Hi Bree,

I've taken a look through your flickr photos and picked out a few I consder you look really beautiful in. Forget about the clothes I just looked at the make-up. IMO these photos would lessen the chances of your being clocked. Personally, if I saw you in these out, I'd think, hmmm she's pretty :)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/breewagner/7108383923/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/breewagner/6962306840/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/breewagner/6897488528/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/breewagner/6887810716/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/breewagner/7025809135/in/photostream

I do however agree with the other ladies, you need a fringe (bangs) to soften your forehead. I'd maybe even go slight lighter in hair colour, that or even try for a wig with soft highlights through it, again soften your face and draw attention away from your jaw. I'd also go with a similar length but some wave (not curls).

In the mid 90's one of the most asked for styles (was a hair stylist) was the Jenifer Aniston look. the most appealing aspect of that cut was the texurised, long layered sides and lightly chipped into sweeping fridge. It was a look that could be varied so much to suit most women.

My point is, using these techniques to soften appearences works wonders. I believe incorporating a style with similar attributes would definitely help you achieve a much softer appearence :)

hugs

Rebecca Star