community

[Inna]

To say that I am disappointed wouldn't be right. It is an intrinsic part of my evolution as a human being to be open and accepting of all regardless of standards and preferences. Yet I can't help but feel overpowering notion that for majority of the community I am part of, absolute womanhood is a non existent virtue.

When I decided to transition, my entire being was bet against all odds, to get to the essence of the feeling I always carried within my heart and was so deprived of embracing. I wanted to be a woman, not mere representation, not half way between, nor adorned with cloth of opposite gender yet remaining fixed in my old ways, NO. I wanted to finally have her take the rightful center stage in the life until then, lived in deceit.

And I was sure such was the case for all the transfolks who were M2F, but now I see clearly that this is not the case.

I do try to connect, and somehow am drawn into sisterhood of transness but lately, have a hard time feeling at ease within testosterone driven trans environment. Most of the folks I have a pleasure to be with as I am finding out are still running with Testosterone levels of a teen quarterback, LOL, and their half way female impersonation diluted by the masculine nature of T makes for an undesirable social combo! Well, at least it feels like that to me!

I have a hard time connecting, and the sexually charged gazes coming from skirt wearing gals are somewhat a huge conversation turnoff.

I do not want this to sound regretful, but maybe it is, as I suppose, my naive nature and miss understanding of the community gave me wrong impression.

I so want to be an advocate for societal equality and acceptance, but as well, do understand that for such to truly take root , we need to present and represent civilized and poised.

Presently there are maybe 3 persons within entire group of maybe 40 folks who do seek womanhood the rest seems to play with the notion of femaleness yet have the sexuality so intertwined into the equation that clarity of resolve is non present!

[Badtranny]

oh boy, you're gonna set it off with this one honey.

I'll save my comments for when it gets juicy. ;-)

[larry]

So what r u saying? Do it all the way-MY way -or hit the highway ? What happened to this " It is an intrinsic part of my evolution as a human being to be open and accepting of all regardless of standards and preferences. " ???

[morgan51]

I'm with Mel. It will be a fun thread to watch! Hugs anyway Inna I respect your moxy. Morgan

[TerryTerri]

I find that being 'trans' has little to do with whether I spend time with someone. Unless there are other bonds of interests, ideology, etc, being trans is not much of a factor. Just my life, Actually, I don't have much of a life these days, between my work & my boys I average about 1 evening a week for social fun, sometimes, and that is usually with my Friday night karaoke crowd I have known for years. I'm the only 'trans' person in our group.

btw, most of my friends that I talk with, text with, shop with, etc are GG. I kinda have 2 male friends, but we've never spent much time togther doing 'social' stuff.

[Inna]

So what r u saying? Do it all the way-MY way -or hit the highway ? What happened to this " It is an intrinsic part of my evolution as a human being to be open and accepting of all regardless of standards and preferences. " ???

LOL, I am laughing Larry, I know, it sort of is an oxymoron to say least, but hence my confusion or rather disappointment not being able to get closer to relationships which could build a forge of transgender movement to change the notion in main stream society viewing all of us as deviant and freakish.

I am sure that advancements in regard to our cause are not set by ******* industry but advocates who take positions amongst society like White house administration, Governmental institutions, film makers, respectful artists and slew of accredited individuals.

[Andie Elisabeth]

LOL, I am laughing Larry, I know, it sort of is an oxymoron to say least, but hence my confusion or rather disappointment not being able to get closer to relationships which could build a forge of transgender movement to change the notion in main stream society viewing all of us as deviant and freakish.

I am sure that advancements in regard to our cause are not set by ******* industry but advocates who take positions amongst society like White house administration, Governmental institutions, film makers, respectful artists and slew of accredited individuals.

IMHO there is a problem with society which is more interested in what you have done to yourself than who you are and what you do. In the news you hear bad news, positive not so much.

As my teacher said: "One swallow doesn't announce spring." But every single swallow will show others that they can be successful too and still be public. If all transgendered people hide in closet we will be seen as freaks.

As I am concerned I don't think I'll able to stay in my closet for much longer.

And there is also fear of unknown. TG/TS is not really explained by science so people fear it, proving hormal effects on developing brain with experiments would be unethical.

[Persephone]

I am sure that advancements in regard to our cause are not set by ******* industry but advocates who take positions amongst society like White house administration, Governmental institutions, film makers, respectful artists and slew of accredited individuals.

Spot on! Absolutely!

Edwin Bok once said "Make the world a bit better for having been in it."

I love that he said "a bit better." Even those of us who occupy the smaller roles have a day-to-day opportunity to make the world a bit better.

There are plenty of ways to help advance the rights and dignity of transsexuals without being a part of some "cause." As a matter of fact, I'm convinced that many such notions retard everyone's development rather than advance it. Many exist to employ folks in transgender organizations, enterprises, and law firms, and some exist to keep transfolk loyal to a particular political party. Those are roles for sheep.

There is a big wide wonderful world out there! If you have the wings, fly!

Hugs,
Persephone.

[KellyJameson]

Inna

I to have struggled living in a world that is so highly sexualized and for me the absence of male sexual energies and sense of myself as not being male are somehow related just as two paths running parallel are separate but share the same ground.

I also have found it difficult to feel a connection with others and look at my fellow human beings as being mysterious and unknowable but this is due to my being born as a statistical aberration so even "if" I belong to the tribe of those who call themselves TG that are a minority within the tribe that is not TG (the majority), I am still even within this group a minority so I live as a minority within a minority and I suspect so do you.

Sexual appetite is independant from biology and I have known many women whose sexual appetites are equal to or greater than any man I have ever known so sex is an individual experience and expression that does not necessarily follow whether you are a man or woman, the difference being that men are traditionally more vocal
about sex but not necessarily more sexual.

Sex ( as many experiences) can turn toward escapism and become a destructive addiction when there is an emptiness inside the person they are trying to fill up often in their search for love so the problem than is not sex but love and what love is believed to be and how it is experienced (found)

The desire to be adored, worshipped, idolized are all experiences dependant on an audience so just as a child performs for the attention of their parent(s) because within this attention is the sense of security by being valued it is easy to fall victim as adults to continue with this child like behavior to feel loved (safe)

Everyone carries within them the awareness of their own impending death (mortality) and we are continously reacting to this awareness. When a person becomes comfortable with self delusion they will turn toward beliefs that are not true (illusion/magical thinking) and one of the most destructive beliefs is that power makes you immortal and through power you transcend death. (Think of Charlie Sheen as an example )

Many substitute love for power just as a child seeks to escape the awareness of their own vulnerability (mortality) in the love (security) of a parent, they use the same stategies from childhood to solve the need to confront fear (mortality) through power in relation to others.

Sex is a form of power when you create desire in another because it gives you a measure of power over them but this is an illusion that opens up the person to exploitation. Those who suffer from a "love deficit" from childhood are most likely to be the ones who will use sex as power to get love trading gold for feces

This love deficit comes from being a victim of violence in childhood and there are many expressions of violence. I type these words in a coffee shop and next to me are two parents who have only shown criticism of their two young daughters and I wonder how these love starved children will live as adults, will they cut their flesh at the sound of their parents voices? use drugs to escape the noise in their brain that was placed there by there parents coldness, cruelty, indifference and judgement ?

What you are witnessing among those who are TG is not unique to being TG but happens everywhere that children have been violated.

The blending of sex, power in place of love or "payment for love" from shattered self esteem is the problem and anyone can fall victim to it particularly those who are TG because it is rare for them not to have experienced relentless criticism,rejection, violence, rape, abandonment,hate, ect....

It is not the testosterone but the childhood in my opinion, they are trying to escape their feelings of worthlessness that was placed into them by others.

To heal from this it takes others who have already healed who may be able to quide them out of this darkness so when needed protect yourself from them but give thanks if you are not one of them because it is only by accident of birth if you escaped this terrible injury to self.

A man is just as capable of turning themselves into a sexual object to be used to gain the illusion of love as a womam is. Sex is extremely dangerous to the self when it is used to heal from past wounds.

[Inna]

powerful words Kelly, and perhaps true. I have experienced sexuality under influence of T and let me tell you, it is a powerful concoction, demanding aggressive and animalistic drive. Then I also experienced absence of T and organism now beating to the different drum of E and sensuality being the forthcoming essence of being, I suddenly felt whole and all that didn't make sense until that moment, now was clear and just! So my own experience living both environments proved how different these are from each other.

Now, I also have experience of being blessed with community of Genetic Females, wonderful gals whom I spend time together on Girls nights out, how world apart is this experience I can not convey the immense void separating both. There with the natal women I feel closeness and yet not an ounce of sexuality within the relations between them!!! the are just girlfriends like boys are friends when socializing, so different from the TG community I am part of, and experience of such immense sexuality directly towards and amongst friends only reminds me of a drift setting this community apart from standard friendships I am used to.

[pamela_a]

I just have 1 simple question for you. Are you a woman (albeit with a birth defect you're working to get corrected) or a male who likes dressing up like a female (for whatever reason)? If you're a woman then you have little in common with the males so to feel unconnected with them is normal.

Just a word of warning....don't get caught up in being "trans". I've seen too many who get suck in that phase of their life and never get past it to become "just another woman".

[ReineD]

To say that I am disappointed wouldn't be right. It is an intrinsic part of my evolution as a human being to be open and accepting of all regardless of standards and preferences. Yet I can't help but feel overpowering notion that for majority of the community I am part of, absolute womanhood is a non existent virtue.

Don't be so quick to judge others Inna. Precious little can be gleaned from a few words written in any post, given the complexity of human nature, the strength of emotion that is attached to this difficult journey combined with past socialization and the difficulties involved in sorting through all of this.

If I were to read some of your posts or thoughts from years ago, I'm sure that you would sound like a different person than now. Does this mean that you were less a woman then, or less deserving of support from those who had gone before you?

Also, as much as you or anyone else might prefer this section of the forum to be an exclusive club only for those who have completed their journeys and have "arrived", this is not the spirit of a support forum.

[Debglam]

oh boy, you're gonna set it off with this one honey.

I'll save my comments for when it gets juicy. ;-)


Inna,

Melissa is kinda right but I don’t think your post is all that bad. I’ll stick my head in the hornet’s nest though.

What I have learned in my relatively short time in the trans world is that you HAVE to take everyone on an individual basis. I think you are kind of stereotyping though. There are post-op TS that are more masculine than John Wayne and there are CD that are more feminine or “womanly” than some of the GG’s I know. I am talking about spirit and NOT appearance mind you. Who knows why?

Also, the trans community is like any other community and you are going to feel a kindred spirit with some people and not others. That’s life. Maybe just the crowd you are hanging out with?

I get what you are saying and the trans women who dress in a highly sexualized way seem to be coming from a different place than I am but that doesn’t mean that I can’t be friends with them. But if there is someone I don't get along with, or don't "mesh" with I just move on. If you don't like the folks you are hanging out with, find new friends. :)

Debby

[Inna]

Don't be so quick to judge others Inna. Precious little can be gleaned from a few words written in any post, given the complexity of human nature, the strength of emotion that is attached to this difficult journey combined with past socialization and the difficulties involved in sorting through all of this.

If I were to read some of your posts or thoughts from years ago, I'm sure that you would sound like a different person than now. Does this mean that you were less a woman then, or less deserving of support from those who had gone before you?

Also, as much as you or anyone else might prefer this section of the forum to be an exclusive club only for those who have completed their journeys and have "arrived", this is not the spirit of a support forum.

Geeee Reine, I am seriously surprised with your interpretation of my post. I haven't set out to banish nor deprive any one of their right spot anywhere. For most part it is a recollection of my own feelings and view ever so clearer of the world around me. I am not placing my self on the pedestal, how can I, I am as broke as anybody else, but I am trying my hardest to make it right!

As to the community. well, society sees what it sees, stereotypes galore and for it to understand out of the common mainstream, seems to be an insurmountable task.
My own view though is that if we as a community do go off the limb too far we may brake the uneasy and thin support we so far as had.

[ReineD]

I went by the "for majority of the community I am part of, absolute womanhood is a non existent virtue".

I'm not TS, but if I were and felt as if my gender identity was not considered womanly enough for some of the members here, I'd feel hurt by this judgment.

Maybe I did misinterpret your post and if so I apologize, but judging by other comments that precede mine I gather others did too. So it may be a good thing for you to expand a bit on what you meant exactly by that statement, in order to clear up any misunderstandings.

[larry]

You are all so well written it seems like I am reading the encylopedia in here sometimes. The interesting part is that we all seem to deep down feel similar and support each other.."You Go Girls" !!

[ReineD]

Larry, didn't anyone ever tell you? High IQ and transness are closely related! :D :D :D

[Debglam]

Larry, didn't anyone ever tell you? High IQ and transness are closely related! :D :D :D

More true than you think. Sadly, there are a lot of very bright, very capable folks out there that are undervalued and underemployed because of being trans.

[ReineD]

Oh, I believe it. And I agree it's very sad.

[Badtranny]

Wow, this post hasn't stirred up any of the angst I expected. Let's see if I can help. ;-)

Maybe Inna didn't make herself clear. She's complaining that she keeps encountering CDs that are essentially just dudes in dresses and as she becomes closer to her goal, they become more sexually aggressive in conversation and whatnot. Basically, she's upset because she's always running into CD's that want to bang a pretty T-girl and it continues to befuddle her.

Did I get it right Inna?

[ReineD]

Wow, this post hasn't stirred up any of the angst I expected. Let's see if I can help. ;-)

Don't you start! :p



Maybe Inna didn't make herself clear. She's complaining that she keeps encountering CDs that are essentially just dudes in dresses and as she becomes closer to her goal, they become more sexually aggressive in conversation and whatnot. Basically, she's upset because she's always running into CD's that want to bang a pretty T-girl and it continues to befuddle her.

That's what I thought Inna meant, but she assured us otherwise.

Not to talk behind your back, Inna, but did you mean that you encounter this outside the forum? I took it that you meant you encounter this behavior here, and I was pointing out that it's impossible to really know someone's core just through a few words typed in a support forum. I agree, it's much easier to determine this if you're face-to-face with someone in a room who is making a pass at you. And if it means anything, I have a pre-op friend who is equally disturbed by this. I don't blame you for being upset.

[ameliabee]

Inna,

Perchance you are needlessly discarding the trans sisterhood in an overwhelming urge to 'just be female'?

I agree with you that there's a huge difference between those who are still jacked up on testosterone and those who are on HRT. But... I haven't really had your experience with running into people who aren't serious. Perchance it's because I only really know other young transitioners. Among this group though, the connection is amazing. I've met several other trans women where we just 'clicked' instantly.

And, yes, it has occasionally been sexual. This is what happens when you have lesbians around who are inclined to such and chemistry off the charts.

Maybe try finding an environment that doesn't reek of testosterone? It can be done.

Also, try not to superimpose your idea of 'the right way to be trans' upon others. Your opinions have a considerable amount of internalized transphobia.

Best,

Amelia

[Inna]

To answer in all clarity, Yes Melissa right on!

Reine, No, all that experience had happened in the circle of friendships which are immediate and face to face.

Amelia, Yes and No, there is a significant phobia towards a sexual advances which are wrapped up in the cloak of friendly, supposedly, woman to woman friendship! This phobia or as I would put it "To Draw The Line" is rather against the deceitful nature of aggressor rather then against trans nature of anyone.
Many of you know me a while, many for quite long and I hope that I come through as a truthful and not discriminating in any ways, however, if there are issues and subjects that are a border line between tolerance and deceit, I shall speak loudly and wont tolerate those who conceal their behavior and lie straight to my face.

After all, if neither I nor anyone else can voice an opposition to certain behavior, weather misunderstood or otherwise misconceived, all we are doing here is pat each other on the shoulder hoping it will go away by it self.

[ReineD]

After all, if neither I nor anyone else can voice an opposition to certain behavior, weather misunderstood or otherwise misconceived, all we are doing here is pat each other on the shoulder hoping it will go away by it self.

I never meant to imply you cannot discuss your troubles here. I thought you were putting down some of the forum members and I'm glad that we got that straightened out. :hugs:

[Badtranny]

Your opinions have a considerable amount of internalized transphobia.

no, no, no, and no.

I guess I could just say hell no.

[DonniDarkness]

Wow, this post hasn't stirred up any of the angst I expected. Let's see if I can help. ;-)

Maybe Inna didn't make herself clear. She's complaining that she keeps encountering CDs that are essentially just dudes in dresses and as she becomes closer to her goal, they become more sexually aggressive in conversation and whatnot. Basically, she's upset because she's always running into CD's that want to bang a pretty T-girl and it continues to befuddle her.


Oh what the hell ill bite......

Inna, your a very pretty woman. If you place yourself among people who are driven by teenage quarterback amounts of T, you need to just expect sexual advances.
After all we are just dudes in dresses.......

But maybe thats the part where you are frustrated. You are embaracing womanhood with the notion that men arent going to hit on you.....because they have a dress on... if so your truly fooling yourself.

So lets reverse these roles and situations.

I get hit on all the time by gay men. Most of which know me and my wife but yet still choose to make lewd sexual comments even though they know i am married and very happy. The rest know im straight, but yet have this serious compulsion to bang the pretty straight boy.....

So i am to get discouraged by their sexuality? Or their choices in attire or speech....

or the fact that they have Quarterback levels of T makeing them lewd and sexually compulsive.....

Or does this mean i let myself become cynical to the other gay men in my life...

Inna when your attractive, you get hit on by everybody.....you just gonna have to learn how to deal with it without letting it effect your perspective on the community.

Much Love,
-Donni-

[LeaP]

Presently there are maybe 3 persons within entire group of maybe 40 folks who do seek womanhood the rest seems to play with the notion of femaleness yet have the sexuality so intertwined into the equation that clarity of resolve is non present!

This seems to be the key. Perhaps closing your circle of friends is a good idea. If you are describing a group (e.g., a support group), maybe a different one.

[EnglishRose]

I was going to ask - which community is that full of gender variant people?! I have tons of trans online friends but the vast majority of the people I talk to are cis.

[Marleena]

I usually don't post in here but I also think it may be time Inna changes her circle of friends. It sounds like a marriage where people grow apart (analogy only). Time to find some new friends with similar interests and background.

[Sara Jessica]

I can picture the scenario you are talking about Inna. But a lot of it has to do with the types of gatherings one is exposed to. For example, in trans-spaces such as support groups, you might encounter such sexually-charged individuals simply as part of a broader TG spectrum. This would be even more true if one frequented TG nightclubs.

As for my own situation, I often marvel at the friends I have made. Whether identifying as middle-pathers or CD, there is a remarkable similarity in world view with nary a sexual overtone. It has to do with the kinds of people you choose to surround yourself with and the places you frequent. I am largely mainstream when I go out with the only trans-option being a monthly support group that sadly has become less important in my travels to the point where if I make it there 3 or 4 times this calendar year, I'll be lucky. As such, I rarely (if ever) encounter the kinds of people you are talking about.


Now, I also have experience of being blessed with community of Genetic Females, wonderful gals whom I spend time together on Girls nights out, how world apart is this experience I can not convey the immense void separating both. There with the natal women I feel closeness and yet not an ounce of sexuality within the relations between them!!! the are just girlfriends like boys are friends when socializing, so different from the TG community I am part of, and experience of such immense sexuality directly towards and amongst friends only reminds me of a drift setting this community apart from standard friendships I am used to.

This comment struck very close to home. Despite the evil "T" that still courses through my body and a lack of "vitamin E" supplement, I have experienced the EXACT SAME FEELING when it comes to natal female friends. One of my best friends in this world is a natal female and we have shared some close spaces without an ounce of sexuality ever coming into the picture. Zero, zippo, nada, absolutely none.

And you know what? To experience friendship on such a level, the feeling is priceless.

[Inna]

I hear you all loud and clear and for most part you do understand.

I guess, what this post was mainly focusing on, was that I WANT, or perhaps yearn, need to be supportive and that force of want, combined with disappointment instills discouragement. I feel hurt when someone presumably seeking femaleness hits on me under the blanket of friendship.
I head a group of Feminine Poise, it is a class for trans folks who like to get in touch with their feminine mannerisms yet find the task insurmountable!

I am there for them, FREE of charge, but what I want back is respect and.........well, normalcy of life which I am so trying to help them with!!!!!!!

I don't just hang out at clubs although, funny, Sara Jessica, you hit right on, most of the crowd loves to hang out at the near by Club, LOL!

There is a transsexual woman, 8 years post op everything, beautiful woman, who used to frequent TG support Group, yet she had stopped doing so, I guess, for most this issue becomes so strange and uncomfortable that they simply drift away from the community at all. I simply don't want to abandon them, they are my friends, I know some are very close, and I love them, truly do, and that is what makes it that much more difficult!!!!!

[Marleena]

I guess, what this post was mainly focusing on, was that I WANT, or perhaps yearn, need to be supportive and that force of want, combined with disappointment instills discouragement. I feel hurt when someone presumably seeking femaleness hits on me under the blanket of friendship.
I head a group of Feminine Poise, it is a class for trans folks who like to get in touch with their feminine mannerisms yet find the task insurmountable!

I am there for them, FREE of charge, but what I want back is respect and.........well, normalcy of life which I am so trying to help them with!!!!!!!


Now I see what is going on...

Perhaps you are being too nice. You may need to set boundaries so they show you more respect. Some of them are obviously making you feel uncomfortable. Just my thought..

[kimdl93]

Inna, it seems to me that a trans support group, just like an on-line discussion board, will include all kinds of people, with varying motivations for participation. All probably participate in a group for - well, support and socialization. But humans are not only social animals, but sexual ones. And some trans people may feel attracted to women. You, being a rather attractive woman, find yourself a focus of unwanted attention. Its unfortunate that some people, as Marleena notes above, lack the ability to respect personal boundaries. But this not unique to the trans community, certainly.

[arbon]

I

There is a transsexual woman, 8 years post op everything, beautiful woman, who used to frequent TG support Group, yet she had stopped doing so, I guess, for most this issue becomes so strange and uncomfortable that they simply drift away from the community at all.

Thats the way it is. Those who get through transition move on eventually. Being tans gets old.

[ReineD]

There is a transsexual woman, 8 years post op everything, beautiful woman, who used to frequent TG support Group, yet she had stopped doing so, I guess, for most this issue becomes so strange and uncomfortable that they simply drift away from the community at all. I simply don't want to abandon them, they are my friends, I know some are very close, and I love them, truly do, and that is what makes it that much more difficult!!!!!

My SO belongs to quite a large TG support group and we've been to many meetings over the years, although we don't attend regularly (my SO doesn't need to and it's rather far away). Anyway, it's hard to tell who has had SRS, who hasn't, who lives full time, and who doesn't, other than the newcomers. Most of the people who attend have been doing so for years and they are good friends. If there are sexual overtones and if people hit on each other, I've not seen it.

But to speak from my own experience, for years I belonged to strictly a GG group in town here. We met every Thursday evening. Because it was a women's only group and this is a small town, over time a handful of lesbians began to attend as well. We were all friends, we often went out together for something to eat after the meeting, and we would socialize together outside the meetings. One romance struck up over the years between two of the lesbians, but this was mutually consensual. Once, one of the lesbians told me that she was attracted to me but when I explained that I wasn't wired that way she understood and we continued to be friends.

So is there any way that you can tell the TGs hitting on you that you're not into them? Would they still continue their advances if you did this?

[Inna]

what makes this whole issue an issue is that I feel I should, and I am, part and have feelings of togetherness with them, these are my friends after all. I suppose, what is the bothersome core, is that even though some know of my stance on this issue, despite of their best efforts do come through very sexually charged, my best guess is that they simply can't do it any other way since they are still infested with testosterone, which is a very powerful substance. Believe me I know exactly how powerful it is, I was once infected as well!
So turning my back on them would solve one thing, yet make me feel I have turned my back on them, staying in this group will make me face these advances continuously, so.......do you see my predicament????

[ReineD]

I suppose, what is the bothersome core, is that even though some know of my stance on this issue, despite of their best efforts do come through very sexually charged, my best guess is that they simply can't do it any other way since they are still infested with testosterone, which is a very powerful substance. Believe me I know exactly how powerful it is, I was once infected as well!

so.......do you see my predicament????

Yes, I do. I've also met men who don't seem to take no for an answer. It's as if it's like a drug to them. Either that or they have huge egos. But I've got to say that (some? many? most? ... it's hard to put a number on it) men do have a degree of self control. Maybe it's a question of maturity?

Are they all like this, or half? Or just a few?

And I agree that it's not cool to appear as a wolf in sheep's clothing, in other words to hide sexual motives behind the mask of friendship.

(... although I've got to say that I've seen GGs do this too, when they're after a guy who doesn't initially notice them. They'll be his friend hoping it will turn into more. But, they generally wait until he makes the first move).

[kimdl93]

Yes, I do. I've also met men who don't seem to take no for an answer. It's as if it's like a drug to them. Either that or they have huge egos. But I've got to say that (some? many? most? ... it's hard to put a number on it) men do have a degree of self control. Maybe it's a question of maturity?

Are they all like this, or half? Or just a few?

I always wondered about guys who were so overbearing. To me it was just obnoxious behavior. I could never imagine being so imposing or presumptuous. (or rude).

[Persephone]

IMHO you have a perfect right to choose your friends. If this group is beginning to bother you then you have an absolute right to distance yourself from them. If you feel bad about not continuing to support them, you can probably find some other ways to do so, and anyway, why should you feel compelled to support behavior that you don't condone or feel comfortable about?

My old friend Leo Buscaglia used to say something like "It's your play, it's your theater, if you don't like it, change it."

On the other hand, accepting flirtations and repelling boarders is a skill you have to have, so maybe this is a good training ground? After all, you're very pretty and guys are gonna be hitting on you for a lot of years.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Inna]

Reine, many are that way with varying degree, then many are that way amongst them selves and not directly towards me. Believe me I have tried to accept this behavior with all my might but it simply feels out of context, out of what the friendship of natal women I experienced. I always thought that transsexuality was simply a woman trapped in the mans body and vice-verse, with woman's brain computing woman's emotions, but have learned that many are making assumptions of them selves being transsexual yet clearly acting on full on male behavior. To say I am confused, is an understatement, and the feeling of betrayal is rather immense in those situations.

I donno, I may be way to sensitive to these issues, but such was my painful experience throughout my life, super sensitive nature!

[LeaP]

what makes this whole issue an issue is that I feel I should, and I am, part and have feelings of togetherness with them, these are my friends after all. I suppose, what is the bothersome core, is that even though some know of my stance on this issue, despite of their best efforts do come through very sexually charged, my best guess is that they simply can't do it any other way since they are still infested with testosterone, which is a very powerful substance. Believe me I know exactly how powerful it is, I was once infected as well!
So turning my back on them would solve one thing, yet make me feel I have turned my back on them, staying in this group will make me face these advances continuously, so.......do you see my predicament????

No, I don't see the predicament. Friends don't treat friends like that. You are being WAY too understanding. THEIR testosterone is not YOUR problem! Set your limits and when the line is crossed, shut them down hard.

[Kathryn Martin]

I always thought that transsexuality was simply a woman trapped in the mans body and vice-verse, with woman's brain computing woman's emotions, but have learned that many are making assumptions of them selves being transsexual yet clearly acting on full on male behavior. To say I am confused, is an understatement, and the feeling of betrayal is rather immense in those situations.

Take into consideration that these persons might not be transsexual. Not everyone who says they are, are in fact. If you overcome the view that gender variance and transsexualism are the same but on a intensity scale then you conflate gender issues with sex issues.

You should not be surprised

[kellycan27]

People are sexual beings why do you think that there are so many of us?:heehee: Sometimes friendships turn sexual. Sometimes it's more than just "T", sometimes it's not. You post a lot of "look at me pics" and a video or two and then you're appalled that someone finds you sexually attractive? You attend groups where TG people gather and are offended by a man in a dress who hits on you? It's not easy to tell the players without a program.. who's to know who is or isn't available unless they take a shot? How do people in general get together? As Reine said.. A word to the wise is usually sufficient. If a man in a dress is not your thing, it's not your thing. Pretty women get hit on.. it's a fact of life and they can't choose who is doing the hitting. You wanted to be pretty and you succeeded, you flaunt your looks.. now you need to own it. Put your big girl panties on.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Yes, I do. I've also met men who don't seem to take no for an answer. It's as if it's like a drug to them. Either that or they have huge egos. But I've got to say that (some? many? most? ... it's hard to put a number on it) men do have a degree of self control. Maybe it's a question of maturity?


Some men (some not all) who are like that also come from a rough upbringing and/or raised in a culture where mistreatment and abuse of women is tolerated (or sadly even encouraged) and that is where they learned it from.

[Inna]

People are sexual beings why do you think that there are so many of us?:heehee: Sometimes friendships turn sexual. Sometimes it's more than just "T", sometimes it's not. You post a lot of "look at me pics" and a video or two and then you're appalled that someone finds you sexually attractive? You attend groups where TG people gather and are offended by a man in a dress who hits on you? It's not easy to tell the players without a program.. who's to know who is or isn't available unless they take a shot? How do people in general get together? As Reine said.. A word to the wise is usually sufficient. If a man in a dress is not your thing, it's not your thing. Pretty women get hit on.. it's a fact of life and they can't choose who is doing the hitting. You wanted to be pretty and you succeeded, you flaunt your looks.. now you need to own it. Put your big girl panties on.

Gosh...OK...I will go today to SEARS to get some big girl panties, those "passion-killers" maybe that will work??

[LeaP]

... You wanted to be pretty and you succeeded, you flaunt your looks.. now you need to own it. ...

Inna - Congratulations on having achieved one of the truest signs of womanhood: Being blamed for what happens to you.

[ReineD]

Reine, many are that way with varying degree, then many are that way amongst them selves and not directly towards me. Believe me I have tried to accept this behavior with all my might but it simply feels out of context, out of what the friendship of natal women I experienced. I always thought that transsexuality was simply a woman trapped in the mans body and vice-verse, with woman's brain computing woman's emotions, but have learned that many are making assumptions of them selves being transsexual yet clearly acting on full on male behavior. To say I am confused, is an understatement, and the feeling of betrayal is rather immense in those situations.

I'll agree with the others. If you feel distress over this, if it bothers you to see people who appear as women and act like men, then you should find a different group of friends.

But I have to say that although a chunk of people who regularly post in this section of the forum are decidedly on the female side of the binary, I firmly believe there are others whose are closer to the middle (a mixture of feminine and masculine traits), and I don't see this as being negative. I suppose libido is hormone driven, and if some members of your group are not on anti-androgens then it's just who they are no matter their gender identity? I also know some genetic women who exhibit a mixture of stereotypical feminine and masculine traits, for example they are nurturing and empathetic like many women, yet they're also competitive, aggressive on the sports field and at work, they don't have time for superfluous things like makeup or hair styles that take forever in the morning. I've no idea what their libidos are like but I imagine it to be rather healthy. :)

AND ... there are even post-op women who are competitive in sports, who don't mince words, and who ride motorcyles! :)


Edit - I totally agree with Kathryn:

Take into consideration that these persons might not be transsexual. Not everyone who says they are, are in fact. If you overcome the view that gender variance and transsexualism are the same but on a intensity scale then you conflate gender issues with sex issues.

[Badtranny]

Let me just chime in to help Inna clarify something. (though she does pretty well even though English is not her native language, amazing really)

She is not upset or even bothered by men who are making advances. That's what men do. What she finds a little discomfiting is the persistent attention of men who claim to be trans yet still appear to think with the "little head".

This is not an unusual situation, the act of dressing is sexually charged for many CD's and I think Inna just wasn't aware of how different part-timers and full-timers are in that regard. I think the last thing on her mind when she's out with people she considers TG, is hanky panky.

[kellycan27]

Inna - Congratulations on having achieved one of the truest signs of womanhood: Being blamed for what happens to you.

Blame? It's not a matter of laying blame.. more like circumstance. You can deny that fact that beauty comes with consequences, but it is what it is.. beauty sells, good, bad or indifferent. I don't think that this is any kind of revelation for most people. Honestly.. what is the purpose of posting glamor shots and videos if not to garner attention to one's self? We can't pick and choose who is sexually attracted to us, nor pick a target audience especially when we put our selves out in the lime light for all to see. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that, but rather saying that if we do.. we should be prepared for the good.. and the bad instead of taking it as a personal affront, and letting it discourage us.

[Inna]

Let me just chime in to help Inna clarify something. (though she does pretty well even though English is not her native language, amazing really)

She is not upset or even bothered by men who are making advances. That's what men do. What she finds a little discomfiting is the persistent attention of men who claim to be trans yet still appear to think with the "little head".

This is not an unusual situation, the act of dressing is sexually charged for many CD's and I think Inna just wasn't aware of how different part-timers and full-timers are in that regard. I think the last thing on her mind when she's out with people she considers TG, is hanky panky.

:thumbsup: yeap, spoken like sister you are! :)

[Melody Moore]

To say that I am disappointed wouldn't be right. It is an intrinsic part of my evolution as a human being to be open and accepting of all regardless of standards and preferences. Yet I can't help but feel overpowering notion that for majority of the community I am part of, absolute womanhood is a non existent virtue.

When I decided to transition, my entire being was bet against all odds, to get to the essence of the feeling I always carried within my heart and was so deprived of embracing. I wanted to be a woman, not mere representation, not half way between, nor adorned with cloth of opposite gender yet remaining fixed in my old ways, NO. I wanted to finally have her take the rightful center stage in the life until then, lived in deceit.

And I was sure such was the case for all the transfolks who were M2F, but now I see clearly that this is not the case.

I do try to connect, and somehow am drawn into sisterhood of transness but lately, have a hard time feeling at ease within testosterone driven trans environment. Most of the folks I have a pleasure to be with as I am finding out are still running with Testosterone levels of a teen quarterback, LOL, and their half way female impersonation diluted by the masculine nature of T makes for an undesirable social combo! Well, at least it feels like that to me!

I have a hard time connecting, and the sexually charged gazes coming from skirt wearing gals are somewhat a huge conversation turnoff.

I do not want this to sound regretful, but maybe it is, as I suppose, my naive nature and miss understanding of the community gave me wrong impression.

I so want to be an advocate for societal equality and acceptance, but as well, do understand that for such to truly take root , we need to present and represent civilized and poised.

Presently there are maybe 3 persons within entire group of maybe 40 folks who do seek womanhood the rest seems to play with the notion of femaleness yet have the sexuality so intertwined into the equation that clarity of resolve is non present!

Where is the Like button? :thumbsup: Oh I forgot, this isn't Facebook now is it? :heehee:

I could not agree more with you Inna and I loved how you articulated this. :thumbsup:

But on a personal note, I find the trans "community" a huge disappointment as a whole.
And I recently felt all the daggers coming out after I announced on Facebook that I finally
got all the funds together now to have my SRS. The testosterone driven aggression in the
trans community is getting way too much for me to deal with. So after my SRS I will be
going underground and many people will never hear from me again.

Congratulations for where you are today! Xx

[Kaz]

Inna, Badtranny,

This is an amazing thread with so much learning for those who wish to 'accept' what they read and internally digest... It has been instrumental to me in some strong reflection on who I am etc... usual stuff..

To both of you, many of us want to do what you have done, but for whatever reason feel we can't, and there are others who don't even get close to the emotional content involved... in even thinking about it!

I so want to be you, but feel that I can't... and so I so really feel for everything that you go through. Your threads are a joy and a warning to me and I bless you for that.

[Carmen]

Inna you are mixing apples with oranges here.

[ReineD]

She is not upset or even bothered by men who are making advances. That's what men do. What she finds a little discomfiting is the persistent attention of men who claim to be trans yet still appear to think with the "little head".

Are they actively pursuing transition? Are they on HRT (you'd think this would squelch male libido)? Or are they not at Benjamin's gender scale level 6? Are they saying they are pre-op TSs? There's such a wide range here, and I know that there have been countless threads about this in the past, debating whether someone who is at level 4 or 5 should call herself transsexual or a transwoman.

We need to come up with a different word for each of the levels, and then there won't be people with varying needs fighting about who has the right to use the one word that is used for a rather broad spectrum.

http://harrychart.goiar.f-m.fm/Original/OriginalChart.jpg
(Never mind the sexual orientation and the Kinsey scale. This chart is from the 1960s)

:hiding:

Edit -


To both of you, many of us want to do what you have done, but for whatever reason feel we can't, and there are others who don't even get close to the emotional content involved... in even thinking about it!

Yeah, but Kaz. I don't think you'd be among the people that Inna is talking about. Somehow I can't see you going to a TG meeting with your primary focus, "thinking with the little head" as Melissa aptly puts it.

[Badtranny]

To both of you, many of us want to do what you have done, but for whatever reason feel we can't, and there are others who don't even get close to the emotional content involved... in even thinking about it!

I don't know why but I literally almost burst into tears when I read this. I'm at work and stealing a bit of time on my personal laptop so that just wouldn't do. So my eyes are just moistened, but for what?

I think it's because I feel the pain in your words.

[kimdl93]

Where is the Like button? :thumbsup: Oh I forgot, this isn't Facebook now is it? :heehee:

I could not agree more with you Inna and I loved how you articulated this. :thumbsup:

But on a personal note, I find the trans "community" a huge disappointment as a whole.
And I recently felt all the daggers coming out after I announced on Facebook that I finally
got all the funds together now to have my SRS. The testosterone driven aggression in the
trans community is getting way too much for me to deal with. So after my SRS I will be
going underground and many people will never hear from me again.

Congratulations for where you are today! Xx

People have a huge capacity to disappoint us...not just those of us in the trans community, but people in general. But a wise friend once advised me not to get caught up in expectations of others. It's a sure fired way to be disappointed.

Now, if I were not such a technoklutz I'd than Kaz for expressing something many of us feel...genuine admiration, a genuine fear that we may need to follow their example, and perhaps a bit of envy, for what people like Inna and Melissa to name just two, have done.

[Melissa Rose]

What she finds a little discomfiting is the persistent attention of men who claim to be trans yet still appear to think with the "little head".

This is not an unusual situation, the act of dressing is sexually charged for many CD's and I think Inna just wasn't aware of how different part-timers and full-timers are in that regard. I think the last thing on her mind when she's out with people she considers TG, is hanky panky.

I agree there are profound differences between most part-timers and full-timers, or if you prefer, CDs and TSs who are transitioning or have transitioned. Initially, I found the sexual "come ons" by CDs to be a bit disturbing, uncomfortable and surprising since my gender expression is directly connected to my sexual identity and not about sex (I'm cash, no charge for me). I have no attraction to other CDs so sexual activity was not one of the reasons for my belonging to a group. As others have mentioned, I also came to the realization that the large majority of CDs (part-timers) are still men in many ways and that's the way they want to remain and be. This made it easier to deal and cope with it - note to self, you are dealing with men and not women. Those group members who hinted about wanting more than friendship or overtly hit on me are considered acquaintances to whom I'm polite and cordial, but I do not seek out their company or friendship.

Inna, I think your reaction and dismay with the sexual behavior of those in your group is understandable. You were looking for friendship and too many others were looking for something else. Those who identified as TS and acted this way probably made it worse. Sometimes when our reality bubble gets burst, it is not pretty and it sucks. I hope you will be able to find a way to remain a member of the group and keep the pesky predators away. If not, pick your circle of friends and keep the others at a safe distance. I hope it works out for you.

[Badtranny]

I need to clarify something in my last post. MelissaRose and AllieSF are technically part-timers I suppose but they are not who I was talking about. People like them, and I'm sure there's many on this board, represent everything that is good and fascinating about CD's and I can't even imagine them ever putting the moves on Inna. ...Or at least they better not, cuz they never put the moves on me. What? Am I not good enough? You know what, I don't care, you want Inna, go have Inna. I don't even give a damn.

[Inna]

Girl don't kid your self, you are a gorgeous woman and as far a recovery time I have a head start on ya! And thank you very much for such offerings, but ahhh........... no thanks!
I don't need NO Moves attention..........I don't need No Girl at all..............Hey, "T"-er leave my trans alone..........all in all its just a.......... nother WOMAN thats all

[melissakozak]

It is unfortunate that you have been subjected to this kind of treatment. Honestly, throw the whole trans issue out the window and look at it for what it is: one human being is really disrespecting another human being. It really is that simple. And yes, the trans community does have members in it who are turned on en femme and turned on by others en femme. That is just one aspect of this community. And it is very, very real. Last Friday night, in Phoenix, a bunch of us T girls get together at a place called Ticos, and the crowd is mixed..from first timers to part timers to those on hormones to those who have had SRS, etc. It is an open, friendly atmosphere, but some of the girls do get hit on occasionally by other T girls. I have been hit on not just from T girls, but lesbians as well, en femme. I just politely and respectfully decline any propositions. It is not what I am interested in at all, as I am in a committed relationship and have boundaries. Additionally, all you have to do is add alcohol and barriers seem to drop.

Boundaries are something you have to create, and you have to enforce them as well. The way you are feeling is no different than an attractive woman at a straight bar who has to put with all the men who either make comments or blatantly try to pick them up. It can be a royal pain in the ass to be admired as a sex object--especially when you expect different behavior from who you perceive to be similar to you, or at the very least, a respectful ally.

Some people have no boundaries and they won't respect you, trans or not. It can be a very, very cruel world......but it can also be empowering when you make your feelings known in a respectful manner.

[LeaP]

you flaunt your looks.. now you need to own it. [from earlier post, emphasis mine]


Blame? It's not a matter of laying blame.. more like circumstance. You can deny that fact that beauty comes with consequences...



This rhetoric crosses the line into blame territory with "flaunt" then "own."

Let's try a common analogy:

"No wonder she was raped. Look at what she was wearing [cf "flaunting"]. She got what she deserved [cf "consequences"]."

Perhaps the question is what disturbs you about Inna's appearance and activities so much that you would choose a word like "flaunt." I attribute nothing but happiness to her. You used the words. Own them.

[MC-lite]

@Inna: You need to change your circle of friends, plain and simple. No offense to anybody who crossdresses, but for many of them, it's all about sexuality and identifying with the sexual aspects of being a woman.

I won't speak for you, but I think like a woman; I have to bond with a man before I'll sleep with Him. But He has to be a man. Not a man in a dress. Not a woman with a penis.

A man. Plain and simple.

And there has to be some substance to Him. I don't need a dildo with a wallet, thankyouverymuch (one word.)

It would have pissed me off to no end to be hit on by someone who knows me and knows what I'm about. If I knew this person for some time and they were not drunk, I'd tell them to "go forth and multiply with themselves."
Or, I'd offer them some of my Spiro. :)

Tell them it's a new designer drug. :devil:

:Miki.

PS: I could send you some of my "big girl panties", but you could probably wrap them around yourself twice.

[Momarie]

Inna,

Something in what you wrote sparked recognition in what I've been thinking...

It has to do with the male response vs. a females.

For instance, when I read about posts where there is even the hint of discrimination (perceived or otherwise) there is a heavy, hard hitting response to protest with a network of avalanche letters/emails with the threat of lawsuits etc.

A woman on her own would probably think and react differently.

Her knee jerk reaction wouldn't necessarily be to gather the forces and annihilate the enemy until they are on their knees.

I know I have spoken out of turn, so I await the onslaught from those determined to twist my thoughts until they hold no meaning.

[EnglishRose]

Um Reine, as you say that chart is kinda old, and probably not really relevant today :) Maybe it's just a bit too problematic to try to classify trans* people in such a way.

[ReineD]

Um Reine, as you say that chart is kinda old, and probably not really relevant today :) Maybe it's just a bit too problematic to try to classify trans* people in such a way.

I agree with you that the chart seems somewhat rigid. But still I like the attempt at trying to come up with a sort of gradient. I think the sexual preference stuff should come out since it's really not related to gender identity. But, there is a lot more to it that just being a CD or a TS and at least Benjamin recognized this.

[kellycan27]

This rhetoric crosses the line into blame territory with "flaunt" then "own."

Let's try a common analogy:

"No wonder she was raped. Look at what she was wearing [cf "flaunting"]. She got what she deserved [cf "consequences"]."

Perhaps the question is what disturbs you about Inna's appearance and activities so much that you would choose a word like "flaunt." I attribute nothing but happiness to her. You used the words. Own them.

Actually i think flaunt was the correct word, if you want to pick it apart.. I don't have a problem with that. I don't have any problem with Inna's appearance, or her activities ( whatever they may be). I am speaking from experience and trying to be honest. When I started out I was also guilty of flaunting my appearance, and one of the "consequences" was...... wait for it............... some pretty unwanted attention. Sorry.. no hidden agenda or excuse for you to go on some kind of anti tranny, anti Inna witch hunt. I am a woman and I know for a FACT that what I am saying is true, and I can only guess that it's never happened to you because perhaps had it.. you might better understand what I am saying. I have the impression that you feel like i am being critical of Inna, but I am really not. I am simply saying that if you put yourself out there with the intent of getting attention, you should be prepared to deal with that attention whether it be good or unwanted. In other words.. own it.

From a thread by Inna :I am also aware of the idea of total disconnect from reality of some of trans folks who bluntly walk into transition with 5" heels, mini skirts, and a blond Farrah Fawcett wig on, despite their obviousness in appearance only wondering why they are being looked at somewhat critically, well.......duh!


What's the difference in what I am saying and what she's saying? well duh! Is she immune because she's pretty?
I will stand by "flaunt" it's a good descriptive even though some want to take it out of context. So yup.. I am owning my words.. I always own my words.

[LeaP]

Actually i think flaunt was the correct word, if you want to pick it apart.. ...

What's the difference in what I am saying and what she's saying? well duh! Is she immune because she's pretty?
I will stand by "flaunt" it's a good descriptive even though some want to take it out of context. So yup.. I am owning my words.. I always own my words.

"Flaunt" - to parade or display conspicuously or ostentatiously. You want to stand by that?

Where we differ isn't in recognizing the realities of the world, it's in assigning responsibility. Being harassed - which describes continued advances after being rebuffed - isn't a "consequence" of anything aside from the boorish, agressive, and privileged attitude of the harasser. An initial approach, anywhere in the range of social acceptability, is completely normal.

[Aprilrain]

Unfortunately many (most?) women DO get blamed for being raped and most women wrongly assume the responsibility for being raped. We recently had a US House of Representatives, male of course, say that woman essentially get raped because of what they are wearing. WOW!! Anyway, the "if, then" of that logic assumes two things; one, that rape is about sex and two, that men have no control over their sexual urges. Poor things! The logical solution too the problem would be to require all men to wear something akin to a dogs "invisible fence" collar and all women would have on their key chain a device to activate the collar. She could just push a button that would electrocute the man attempting to rape her because of what she is wearing which would bring him back to his senses, he could then thank her and go on his merry way. Don't you just love logic!:lol:

[kellycan27]

"Flaunt" - to parade or display conspicuously or ostentatiously. You want to stand by that?

Where we differ isn't in recognizing the realities of the world, it's in assigning responsibility. Being harassed - which describes continued advances after being rebuffed - isn't a "consequence" of anything aside from the boorish, agressive, and privileged attitude of the harasser. An initial approach, anywhere in the range of social acceptability, is completely normal.

Where we really differ in realities is that you are blowing this way out of proportion. Inna never said she was being harassed, she said that the "sexually charged gazes" made he uncomfortable and made conversation difficult for her. What I am saying and have been saying all along is that when one puts them selves out there like that... right or wrong it's likely to cause the type of behavior that one is experiencing. If you can say that this is not so... I will gladly shut my mouth. if you want to continue to argue semantics please pm me so Inna's thread can stay on track.

kel

"Flaunt" - to parade or display conspicuously or ostentatiously. What do fashion models do?

[Marleena]

I don't know why but I literally almost burst into tears when I read this. I'm at work and stealing a bit of time on my personal laptop so that just wouldn't do. So my eyes are just moistened, but for what?

I think it's because I feel the pain in your words.

This is refreshing. It's nice to see some compassion for people like Kaz, there are quite a few like her on this board.

@ What Inna is experiencing is no fun and this is new to her. She is an attractive woman and these things happen in social settings. Sexual attraction can cause problems.
Women have to get used to it because it will happen whether those problematic people are GM's, CD, PreOp TS, and to a lesser degree PostOp TS and GG's.

[Inna]

Perhaps I should step in, sorry for posting my gallery of Model Professional pictures, because I can see how some do interpret such actions. My intention was to share my JOY with you all, and yes, there is an aspect of bit of proudness in it, but far from empty vanity and ostentatious pompousness!
Same pictures are presented to potential clients, they are respected and I have only positive responses from industry professionals, so never though much of them being too revealing in any way.

As to my private life when I am out and about, I have often been criticized by my Crossdressing friends that I do not present womanly enough, and don't wear a skirt and hi heels, instead I wear jeans and a Tshirt and flats. Yes I do most of the time!
I find it way more comfortable and less Promiscuous and less in your face sexy. I like it that way as much as getting all glammed up when a model call comes.

I am in the sense flattered by Kellie's focus on my projection of sensual essence in the pics, after all, I am a woman, and always had more sensuality within my veins then sexual drive put forth by T. But as with any TS woman, I too have doubts as to my beauty, and think rather opposite, and when the pics do come out better then expected, I just feel ecstatic and enjoy, if for a moment, perfection I do not see in the mirror

[Inna]

As to a feeling of harassment, I did feel more of betrayal then anything else! To the person I would trust and open my self spiritually and become close, and then have them reveal their true intentions being entirely of physical/ sexual nature, I felt that my space and trust have been violated and my love towards them, twisted and smeared!

[LeaP]

Where we really differ in realities is that you are blowing this way out of proportion. Inna never said she was being harassed, she said that the "sexually charged gazes" made he uncomfortable and made conversation difficult for her.

Honestly, I don't think so. See posts 10, 36, and 40 (in context of Reine's post). The sexually-charged behavior was described as unwanted, aggressive, and repeated. That's harassment. In a work environment it's more then enough to get you fired, sued, and possibly criminally prosecuted.


What I am saying and have been saying all along is that when one puts them selves out there like that... right or wrong it's likely to cause the type of behavior that one is experiencing. If you can say that this is not so... I will gladly shut my mouth. if you want to continue to argue semantics please pm me so Inna's thread can stay on track.
...

"Flaunt" - to parade or display conspicuously or ostentatiously. What do fashion models do?

It's not the case (cause and effect), and this isn't semantics. It's at the heart of Inna's dilemma, which is how to deal with this and still remain supportive to those in the community that need it.

Abstracting things, there are two lines of thinking in this thread. One line would understand and give a pass to the aggressive sexual behavior described, the other would not. Since all of us presumably believe there are ultimately limits to behavior, this reduces to where we draw the line and what actions to take.

I draw the line at "no" or "stop." Inna made it clear she has sent that message (#36). In my view, people respect you more when you stand strongly astride the lines you set. And to Inna's desires, strengthening her in that way in the view of these people can only assist her in subsequently supporting them in real need.

And yes, models do flaunt! Overtly, sexually, outrageously, and provocatively! And that doesn't cause the photographer to do anything other than raise his heart rate, nor would it excuse leering or aggressive speech.



As to a feeling of harassment, I did feel more of betrayal then anything else! To the person I would trust and open my self spiritually and become close, and then have them reveal their true intentions being entirely of physical/ sexual nature, I felt that my space and trust have been violated and my love towards them, twisted and smeared!

It's really a shame that the theme of betrayal runs through and through so many aspects of gender. It seems to have endless variations. I'm sorry you're not beyond that, Inna.

[Marleena]

I don't think in this day and age anybody would approve of sexual harassment. If I have the facts correct Inna is the leader of this group so who is there to report to? This is a very unfortunate and difficult position to be in. Removing herself from the situation would seem to be the only way out if unwanted sexual advances (harassment) continue.

[Inna]

my disappointment goes deeper then just few individuals in the group. This is a dynamic group of folks, some do show up several times and then disappear into thin air and the newcomers are welcomed with open arms. I suppose it is my naive nature of expecting all Transsexuals to behave in the manner of definition of Girl Brain=Boy Body. But what has made the matter that much more out of context is the fact that NOT ALL crossdressers are immoral in that respect!!!!
Many are fun to associate with, they do not flaunt their masculinity in fact, they appreciate being next to a Transwoman because they feel femininity and sensuality they also feel within, and I had been made aware of that by those who appreciate that fact.
So NOT all are misbehaving, making the misbehaving ones that much more annoying!

Running away is not the answer, when you appreciate some of the members there for their being genuine and also are a valued member and a teacher providing, which in my eyes is needed genre, class on feminine Poise.
Interestingly enough, those who harass with unwanted advancements do not come to the class, where only serious folks get together!

[Melissa Rose]

As to my private life when I am out and about, I have often been criticized by my Crossdressing friends that I do not present womanly enough, and don't wear a skirt and hi heels, instead I wear jeans and a Tshirt and flats. Yes I do most of the time! I find it way more comfortable and less Promiscuous and less in your face sexy.

Inna, that is not criticism - it is ignorance and hypocrisy by your cross dressing friends. They whine and complain about how society judges and frowns upon men wearing women's clothing then they turn around and state you are not dressing to their male defined standard of womanly. That is a load of crap. So a man is not presenting manly enough if he is not in a suit and tie? Most of the time, I do not wear skirts or heels, and I do not feel or nor do I think I project a less than womanly image. A woman can be comfortable, casual, stylish and feminine without resorting to an antiquated definition of dressing womanly. Geez.

Being attractive, well dressed or overtly feminine is not an invitation to sexual advancement or a sign you are ready for mating. By definition, being attractive means others are attracted to you, but that is not an excuse for their poor behavior. I've heard "I could not help myself" when calling someone out over it. Again, another load of crap. They need to show some maturity and self control. It has been my observation over the past few years that most cross dressers and a surprisingly large number of TSs including post-ops have boy brains, thus think and act accordingly, and it is not only their sexual behavior. The realization has helped in dealing with it.

There is nothing wrong with sharing pictures and taking joy when you like the image being reflected back at you. So the unattractive can share pictures without it being assumed it is for ego or flaunting purposes, but the attractive can't? That does not make sense to me. You have nothing to apologize for.

[ReineD]

As to a feeling of harassment, I did feel more of betrayal then anything else! To the person I would trust and open my self spiritually and become close, and then have them reveal their true intentions being entirely of physical/ sexual nature, I felt that my space and trust have been violated and my love towards them, twisted and smeared!

Inna, eventually you will become guarded like the rest of us, while still remaining open to favorable possibilities. This is something that we begin to learn in our teenage years. It isn't consciously taught by our mothers or other female mentors, we learn this ourselves through our own interactions with first boys, and then with men. Some guys are safe, and others are predators. When your instincts are more fully developed about this (it will take a few interactions like your recent experiences), you will quickly know who to confide in and be friends with (even if they are men) and who to keep your distance from. Also, you will cease to be surprised at the crude male behaviors when you encounter them, no matter how these men are dressed, since you will expect such behaviors. A good man (no matter how he is dressed) knows when his advances will be accepted and he will stay away if he is refused and a strong woman knows how to deflect or avoid the predators. Few men will take it so far as rape if a woman is guarded and she knows what situations to stay away from or how to define her boundaries. It's a learning process, that's all.

The challenge is to not close your heart to everyone because of the boorish few, but rather learn to trust your developing instincts and seek relationships with the many wonderful people out there, both men and women, while avoiding the rest.

I'm not trying to sound as if I know better than you or anything, just trying to let you know that all of this is a process but eventually it will fall into place. :hugs:

[Inna]

I AM NOT CONSIDERING MALE BEHAVIOR!

I have been looked on, whistled on, wowed, by Genetic males and actually these made me feel noticed for my femininity and that was rather happy feeling!

I had been to several dates with Genetic males who's interests as it turned out were more physical then sensual, I get that, even though I am an old fashion girl and had declined such advances in one case he wasn't a gentlemen but I have dealt with the situation and even though it made me cry, I had got my self out! I take that as part, sometimes unfortunate part, but part nevertheless, of femininity, I DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And then we move to the subject at hand, trans folks who present them selves as one of us, one of the girls, and then, turn the tables and suddenly become something completely different, THAT makes me SICK!

I feel betrayed and lied to, under the cloak of femininity those individuals sneak in close and seek sexual acts, that to me is Conniving Behavior!

[ReineD]

Sorry, Inna. I was just trying to relate my own learning curve with all of this, but admittedly my experience is with men not CDers or TSs (well, except my SO but she's not a predator).

[Inna]

Reine, nothing to be sorry about, you are a great friend and a great moderator, and KUDOS to you for sticking around here being a GG, believe me, I can only imagine how selfless and forgiving you must have to be to deal with some of the ideals presumed feminine but yet eons apart from any feminine emotion.
Thank you fro being here for all of us!

[ReineD]

Oh, OK. lol You weren't just frustrated with me, but with everyone. :p

I feel better now. :) :hugs:


( ... just trying to lighten this thread up a little)

[kellycan27]

Sorry, Inna. I was just trying to relate my own learning curve with all of this, but admittedly my experience is with men not CDers or TSs (well, except my SO but she's not a predator).

Maybe you were just a bit premature. Wolves don't only come in dresses, but some come dressed as sheep too. I suspect that lesson won't be too far behind in coming. :heehee:

kel

[Stephenie S]

So, having glaced at the last posts, I guess I had better read this thread.

But to comment on how I have learned to think about the male gender; I think there are many, many, loyal, hardworking, honest, faithful, loving, kind, good with kids, MEN out there who will drop their pants in a New York Minute if they think they can get away with it.

Those who know me will recognize a certain amount of hyperbole in the above, however I feel there is a certain degree of truth in what I say.

While I can get positively giddy at the attentions of a handsome (heck, just clean will do) gentleman, I much prefer the company of women, where that slight edge of discomfort (is it fear?) that continually nibbles at my awareness when I am with a gentleman, never occurs at all.

They are bigger than me.

Stephie

[Kathryn Martin]

Boy has this thread gone off topic. Maybe a simple guys are guys and girls are girls would suffice as an explanation of what happened to Inna. Maybe "representing as" or even "presenting as" has zero influence on your hormonal body chemistry.

[Thera Home]

Maybe you were just a bit premature. Wolves don't only come in dresses, but some come dressed as sheep too. I suspect that lesson won't be too far behind in coming. :heehee:
kel

Kelly
Thats why like I said in another thread, carry brass knuckles in your purse. I know my testatorone sometimes gets the best of me.:heehee:

:bigsmack:

Thera

[Kathryn Martin]

Really, I mean really? Brass knuckles in your purse? Is that how you resolve issues?

When is the last time you saw a woman use brass knuckles because testosterone got to her.

Does anyone see the irony here?


Kelly
Thats why like I said in another thread, carry brass knuckles in your purse. I know my testatorone sometimes gets the best of me.:heehee:

:bigsmack:

Thera

[Badtranny]

Does anyone see the irony here?

Holy smokes Kat, irony is the duct tape that holds this forum together. Alanis could write a song about this place and fill it with REAL ironic snippets instead of just a list of tough breaks.

[MC-lite]

Really, I mean really? Brass knuckles in your purse? Is that how you resolve issues?

When is the last time you saw a woman use brass knuckles because testosterone got to her. Testosterone, no. Cheating man?... I've seen the worst come out in ggirls when it comes to a cheating man. And I have seen Ggirls beat the living crap out of each other over some trivial thing. But you're right. It's not a normal female response (Unless you're a brooklyn girl. Then, all bets are off. :) )


Does anyone see the irony here?
Irony, no. Testosterone, Yes. :)

[Inna]

Quuuoooffffeeeeeeeyyyyyyyy any one?

[MC-lite]

@Inna: Was that Brooklynese? Cuz we got a lotta stuff that sounds like that.
Like Howzbyyue....and shouldacouldawouda.

And don't forget Bvrooklyn New Yawk (where I'm from)

They call it Crooklyn these days. That's cuz' the gangstaz' took it ovah from the mobstaz'

FUGHEDDABOUTIT!

:lol: That was fun...I amuse myself so easily. Then again, as a child, Albert Einstein was facinated by a compass. :)

Best,
:Miki.