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Foxglove
07-03-2012, 05:44 AM
Hi, Everyone!

Let’s fantasize a bit, let our imaginations go, envision the best case scenario: we live in a society that is fully accepting of TGism. There’s absolutely no discrimination in any way against TG people. We’re allowed publicly and privately to live as we please with no hassle whatsoever from anybody. When a child is identified as TG, that’s no problem for anyone, and she gets some “self-education”, counselling from an older and experienced TG person who can explain to her what she is and what her options are going to be in life. That child can go to school dressed however she wishes and not be bullied in any way. Kids are just as cool with TGism as adults.

So, we’ve got it made, right? Heaven! Except what do we do when we want to get married?

Because the fact is that the overwhelming majority of women in this world don’t particularly like CDing/TGism, and they would prefer not to marry it. Now it’s true that many women, once they discover that their husband is CD/TG, can come to accept it. But even with the best will in the world, it’s difficult for them. We see that on this forum. There are many wonderful women here who are trying so hard to understand their husbands and become accepting of them. But it’s an awful struggle for a lot of them—perhaps one, if they were given a choice, they would prefer not to have to deal with in the first place.

There is a gap between transgenderism and cisgenderism. Cisgender people are baffled by us—even if they don’t particularly dislike us. We are simply different. Our experience and feelings are so different from theirs that they find it well-nigh impossible to comprehend what’s going on inside us. Some of them succeed in doing that. But they’re pretty rare. We live in a realm that is light years away from theirs.

Ah, but we’re imagining the best case scenario, right? We’re fully accepted, right? Yes. Except that there’s a difference between accepting something and liking it. I myself am fully supportive of gay rights, fully supportive of gay marriage, etc. But that doesn’t mean I’d sleep with a gay guy, let alone consider marrying him, given that I’m not gay myself. I accept him and his rights, but I couldn’t accept him as my life’s partner.

The fact is that your average GG wants a normal, heterosexual man, and there aren’t many GG’s who are delighted to see an element of femininity in their partner. They can be accepting of CD/TG men, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they want to marry one.

There is a view often enough expressed that claims that “if she truly loves you, she’ll love you as you are.” I myself think that’s simplistic. Your average GG’s feelings towards CD/TG may be very similar to my feelings towards gay guys: she can accept but not marry.

We TG people say that we should be accepted as we are. The corollary of that is that we must accept others as they are. Your average GG isn’t made such that she can be terribly thrilled about the idea of marrying a CD/TG man. It simply isn’t in her nature. She’s not to be blamed for that any more than we’re to be blamed for being TG.

So what would we do when we wanted to get married? As things stand, a lot of us (and that would include me) simply don’t tell our wives-to-be about our TGism before we get married. What she doesn’t know won’t hurt her. Except that in many cases she does eventually know and it hurts her a lot.

Now we all know why we don’t tell. Various reasons: we don’t truly understand ourselves, never having had any “self-education”. Maybe our CDing urges come and go, so we naively think maybe they’ll go away for good. Maybe we’re not thinking about it all in the run-up to the wedding. We’re in love with a gorgeous woman. Our own feminine tendencies are the furthest thing from our minds. But above all because hiding, keeping our little secret to ourselves has become second nature to us. We have a pretty good idea of what will happen to us if people find out what we are, so we learn not to tell. Anybody. Ever. And that includes the wife.

GG’s don’t generally like this explanation. I can understand that. Being TG myself, I can understand why we don’t tell. But I can also understand why a GG would be hurt and dismayed when she eventually she discovers her husband’s secret. That’s certainly the sort of thing she would have wanted to know before she got married.

So what would we do? In our best case scenario we’re fully accepted, so we no longer have any reason to hide. Which means we no longer have any excuse at all not to tell the wife-to-be who we are. But most women wouldn’t want to marry us. In our best case scenario, they all accept us. But still being cisgender, very few of them would want to marry us. Would there be enough of them to go around? Would there be enough women who would actually prefer to marry a CD/TG man to satisfy all of us? And if there weren’t, would we still try to hide from them what we are, aware as we would be, that if they knew about us, they wouldn’t want to marry us?

“Hold on a minute,” you say. “Since we’re imagining the best case scenario, why not imagine that lots of GG’s become so fond of us they do want to marry us?”

That’s just it. I can’t imagine it. Maybe others can. I can’t imagine that cisgender women would some day become so fond of us that they’d want to marry us in huge numbers any more than I can imagine that straight people would become so fond of gay people that they’d want to marry them in huge numbers.

I suppose that’s what it all would come down to: how many of them, given the choice with full knowledge beforehand, would want to marry us?

Best wishes, Annabelle

Marlana
07-03-2012, 06:14 AM
I also believe that GG's don't want to marry CD/TG's either. Some, and I believe it to be few, support it to a degree. I had this conversation last night with my therapist about why my wife is not ok with me being a Cd. I actually phrased that wrong, not supportive is a better wording. I didn't tell her before we got married because I only did it a couple times a year due to my job circumstances. That all changed, and now I have more time/availabilty to dress. She thought it was a phase and would pass. If she knew it wouldn't, I don't think she would have married me. I'm not sure how to define myself, CD/TG, but wy wife would like to have her full-time husband back. Not sure if that's gonna happen.

RainyNightGirl
07-03-2012, 06:43 AM
Hi Annabelle

That is a tough question. However I informed my wife on our second date that I liked to wear women's clothing and she still married me several years later even after helping me buy shoes, skirts, make-up etc. So maybe there are some GGs that maybe not being attracted to it, do not see CDing as a reason not to have a relationship with a man. There are many faults in every person, and when you marry a person you marry the good and the bad, and well as my wife told me, being CD is not that much of a problem for her, I guess I could have had a lot worse traits (whatever they could be).

Thanks for the thoughts.

Natasha
x

kimdl93
07-03-2012, 06:53 AM
You can compose any sort of hypothetical world you wish. But in my real life I have married two women who accepted my CDing.

VS Fan
07-03-2012, 07:13 AM
I can’t imagine that cisgender women would some day become so fond of us that they’d want to marry us in huge numbers any more than I can imagine that straight people would become so fond of gay people that they’d want to marry them in huge numbers.

I suppose that’s what it all would come down to: how many of them, given the choice with full knowledge beforehand, would want to marry us?


Annabelle - I found this to be a very interesting post.. so thank you :) The problem I have with the premise above is that with homosexuality, it's not a "personality trait" we're talking about (like blonde hair, etc), we're talking about actual sexual preference, which is a show stopper in general between gay and non-gay. With the CD/TG, you assume that at first there is a sexual attraction and then the repulsion happening when the CD/TG discovery is made... whereas with a heterosexual person viewing a same-sex person, the initial attraction wouldn't be there in the first place. Having said that, I *do* think that if CD/TG were "worn on our sleeves" and truly "accepted by society" I don't think it would do us any favors, but it wouldn't be any worse than being a "computer nerd" etc etc as far as disadvantage (I have the dubious privilege of being both of these LOL).. there would be plenty of women who (as they came to know us as a "group") would see the "good" in it or the advantages.

VS Fan

WifeofWrenchette
07-03-2012, 07:22 AM
You can compose any sort of hypothetical world you wish. But in my real life I have married two women who accepted my CDing.

thank you for saying that. I came here to post that I'm a GG and have fully accepted my husband's CDing and chose to marry him knowing he crossdressed. I didn't find out until 6 months into the relationship, but after knowing I married him. We are very happily married.

Foxglove
07-03-2012, 07:30 AM
You can compose any sort of hypothetical world you wish. But in my real life I have married two women who accepted my CDing.


thank you for saying that. I came here to post that I'm a GG and have fully accepted my husband's CDing and chose to marry him knowing he crossdressed. I didn't find out until 6 months into the relationship, but after knowing I married him. We are very happily married.

I have acknowledged in my OP that there are women who are OK with CDing/TGism. The question I'm raising is how many would it be. Obviously, a hard question to answer.


The problem I have with the premise above is that with homosexuality, it's not a "personality trait" we're talking about (like blonde hair, etc), we're talking about actual sexual preference, which is a show stopper in general between gay and non-gay. With the CD/TG, you assume that at first there is a sexual attraction and then the repulsion happening when the CD/TG discovery is made... whereas with a heterosexual person viewing a same-sex person, the initial attraction wouldn't be there in the first place.
VS Fan

Yes, I agree with this. The situation with homosexuality and TGism isn't exactly the same. We are, however, talking about people who are outside the norm and who are often poorly viewed by the great majority. I'm not trying to push the comparision any further than that.

WifeofWrenchette
07-03-2012, 07:34 AM
Annabelle, it's the way it's worded "the overwhelming majority of women in this world don’t particularly like CDing/TGism, and they would prefer not to marry it." It's a hypothetical because no one knows how many women are accepting and not accepting and what they would prefer or not.

Foxglove
07-03-2012, 07:42 AM
Annabelle, it's the way it's worded "the overwhelming majority of women in this world don’t particularly like CDing/TGism, and they would prefer not to marry it." It's a hypothetical because no one knows how many women are accepting and not accepting and what they would prefer or not.

You're right, Wrenchette. It is hypothetical. I myself don't believe that many women would want to marry one of us, if they knew in advance what their prospective husband was like. And I don't believe that if TGism became more generally accepted in society, the situation would change much in that regard. But obviously others might disagree. That's why I posted this. To see what others thought.

Cynthia Anne
07-03-2012, 07:43 AM
Very interesting concept! I feel that dressing does NOT make one a lesser man! In fact it takes a REAL man with guts to wear a dress! So why wouldn't GG's want a REAL man!:daydreaming: Hugs!
Just useing my imagination!:heehee:

sissystephanie
07-03-2012, 07:49 AM
I told my late wife before we married that I was a CD! She accepted me "as is," and we had almost 50 happy years together before cancer took her! There are many women who would accept a CD or a TG. The problems that seem to arise usually come mostly from the CD/TG, who has not accepted what he is!

Sally24
07-03-2012, 08:09 AM
I think you have to extend your premise. You can't just change one major thing, society being accepting of cding, and not have it affect other things. I find that the more people are exposed to us the more they realize we are normal people. Even now there are many women that are attracted to us. If we were much more visible and common I would think that it open up the possibility of more partners. You also have to realize that if there was more acceptance and assitance than probably many more TG folk would transition at a young age. Even in theast 10 years attitudes have changed considerably.

kimdl93
07-03-2012, 08:19 AM
I misunderstood the question ;) The answer is 42.

LeaP
07-03-2012, 08:23 AM
The question is interesting. A corresponding assumption to acceptance would be that virtually everyone would be out. No closet cases. The numbers would be surprising, perhaps staggering. I believe the number of straightforward crossdressers alone would change the dynamic, as they would dictate that people accept some level of this or perhaps forego the opportunity to marry. When it comes to more intense forms of gender variance and behavior (e.g., very frequent or full-time crossdressing), I tend to agree with you that there would be disinterest.

Veronica27
07-03-2012, 08:58 AM
Hi Annabelle

Your hypothetical that TGism becomes perfectly acceptable, is at the heart of my dislike of using it as an umbrella term. What exactly is it that society would now accept? No matter how diverse we say TG is, certain images are going to prevail, and the predominant image would be of a man having a desire to become as much of a woman as his circumstances permit as often as he can, because of the emphasis on the TG side of things. The increased freedom and acceptance would present her with an image, rightly or wrongly, that she was commiting herself to a life with another woman. There is a skepticsm right here on the forum that people who are "just a crossdresser" are somehow deluding themselves that they are not TG. The recent thread about that subject revealed this. I can't imagine that an overall acceptance of TGism would help a crossdresser allay the fears of a potential mate as to what his needs really are. Crossdressing would be relegated to just an aspect of what TG is all about, because of the activism of TG that produced this hypothetical in the first place.

I think the average crossdresser is in a much better position right now to win the woman of his dreams, than he would be in your scenario. But then again perhaps I am seeing things through the rose coloured glasses of a crossdresser who has found an accepting wife.

Veronica

Foxglove
07-03-2012, 09:19 AM
I believe the number of straightforward crossdressers alone would change the dynamic, as they would dictate that people accept some level of this or perhaps forego the opportunity to marry. When it comes to more intense forms of gender variance and behavior (e.g., very frequent or full-time crossdressing), I tend to agree with you that there would be disinterest.




Your hypothetical that TGism becomes perfectly acceptable, is at the heart of my dislike of using it as an umbrella term. What exactly is it that society would now accept?

Hi, Lea and Veronica! I think making a distinction in this scenario between CDers and TGers is probably valid. A distinction well worth considering at the very least.


No matter how diverse we say TG is, certain images are going to prevail, and the predominant image would be of a man having a desire to become as much of a woman as his circumstances permit as often as he can, because of the emphasis on the TG side of things. The increased freedom and acceptance would present her with an image, rightly or wrongly, that she was commiting herself to a life with another woman.

It depends on how educated cisgender people become about TGism, whether they become aware of the differences between CDers and those who transition or would consider doing so. Your worry that they might not perceive the difference is valid.


There is a skepticsm right here on the forum that people who are "just a crossdresser" are somehow deluding themselves that they are not TG. The recent thread about that subject revealed this. I can't imagine that an overall acceptance of TGism would help a crossdresser allay the fears of a potential mate as to what his needs really are. Crossdressing would be relegated to just an aspect of what TG is all about, because of the activism of TG that produced this hypothetical in the first place.

I think the average crossdresser is in a much better position right now to win the woman of his dreams, than he would be in your scenario. But then again perhaps I am seeing things through the rose coloured glasses of a crossdresser who has found an accepting wife.

Veronica

This isn't my position: I don't claim that CDers are deluded about what they feel. I leave each individual to determine that for themselves. If cisgender people aren't clear as to what we're all about, again it comes down to how much education they'll get in these matters. With some it may well be a lot. Cisgender people on this forum are well up on things. But with others, yes, they might have very confused notions about us.

You're saying that this imaginary scenario wouldn't make things easier for you. Well, that's what I'm saying. It's just that we have different reasons for thinking so.

Annabelle

Audreyanne
07-03-2012, 05:26 PM
Unfortunately, I tend to think Annabelle is correct. Most women do not find CDing attractive. Societal norms and perhaps even instinct steer them towards the masculine image. Some are able to get by all that and be supportive of a CD for whom they have developed feelings. But I think that is a minority.