What defines going "En Femme" in public?

[KlaireLarnia]

Lots of people on here talk about going out "En Femme". I have read the definition of "En Femme" on places like Wikipedia etc. I see there are a few.... levels?... which could constitute going "En Femme" and reading various posts on here makes me wonder how people see it, because the people here are the people who do it or have partners who do it so are perhaps the best people to define it.

I cannot see a way to post a poll so I will have to list my options and see what people think.

1) Dressing in female clothing (but appearing & acting outwardly male)
2) Dressing in female clothing, and accessories (bags, jewellery etc) (but appearing & acting outwardly male)
3) Dressing in female clothing, accessories and make-up / breast forms / wig and trying to look as female as possible.
4) Dressing in female clothing, accessories, makeup and trying to pass as female in terms of looks and mannerisms.

When I look at posts here I feel people talk about "En Femme" as being the whole hog so to speak. Clothes, make-up, wigs etc. Doing their best to look female and pass as such. So does "En Femme" just mean putting on clothes or going that extra step to trying to pass as female.

What do others think?

[ReineD]

What a great question! I can't wait to see the answers. I imagine the opinions will be divided, depending on how individual members dress. Everyone will say that what they do fits the "en femme" description.

My opinion and it is just my opinion: the term applies to someone who is presenting unmistakably as a woman. If people can't tell that a CDer is crossing the gender boundaries in terms of presentation, then how do they know he is presenting as a woman? "En femme" means "as a woman" in French.

A) Here's are pics of guys wearing skirts. I wouldn't say they're "en femme" at all. They're rather redefining how a man can dress, even though the style hasn't become popular:
http://images.nymag.com/daily/fashion/20081231_mjskirt_250x375.jpg
http://www.sojones.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/skirt.jpeg
http://dmetts2.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/draped-man-skirt.jpg?w=199&h=300

B) The next group of pics (men in heels) is rather interesting. I'd say the two at either end are presenting "en homme" (as a man), but not the person in the middle, who appears to be wearing breast forms, although no makeup or long hair. So I'd consider him rather ambiguously "en femme".
http://www.refinery29.com/static/bin/entry/542/x/16910/man-heels-fashion-2.jpg

C) In the next group of pics, I'd say that no one is presenting "en femme". They are unmistakably presenting as guys and again, I think they're just trying to redefine what men can wear:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_388Adrd7Z7k/S08DAhYswWI/AAAAAAAAAFs/SN-D6qv76KY/s400/men+heels.jpg

D) I don't know what to make of this next person, other than to say it looks to me as if he is dressing like that on a lark, so I wouldn't consider this "en femme" either:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZAy8jT3M6cU/TFpG3olnBWI/AAAAAAAAAVg/o8zxXY7JIpA/s1600/cosplay_fat_man_in_dress.bmp

E) I'd say this next person is presenting or trying to present "en femme" because of the makeup and the degree to which her clothes are feminine, even though she does still look like a guy:
http://www.funnypicture.in/funnypicture/1864_man_in_pink_skirt.jpg

F) And this person is most definitely presenting "en femme" even though he hasn't shaved and doesn't appear to wear any makeup:
http://www.freakingnews.com/Man-in-Drag-Lying-on-Couch-Pictures-84012.asp

After looking at all of these pics, I conclude that it's not one, two, or three things that define "en femme", but rather the total look, or what we can glean from the intent. Is the intent to look like a man who redefines men's styles, or as a woman even if the look isn't perfect?

[NathalieX66]

Well, I suppose I'm guilty of bringing up the term en femme on this forum.

Without trying to define myself in your categories of 1,2,3,4, I just simply see myself as female no matter what my birth anatomy is. Nothing is perfect, as we all know, but things do get better after time. I'm totally amazed that the average Joe or Jane just interacted, and didn't notice, with someone whose appearance doesn't match what's in their pants.....that being me. . Maybe they were being super nice and courteous, and that's a good thing, BTW.

I don't like gender constraints, never did. For the last three years of my life, I finally acted on it. Yes, from time to time, I dress in women's clothing and put on makeup....in the most public and crowded environments. I no longer feel like a freak. I am just being me, and finally I feel free.

[Thera Home]

4) Dressing in female clothing, accessories, makeup and trying to pass as female in terms of looks and mannerisms.
?

If and ever decide to go out in public......I like this one.

Thera

[Unsuremayb]

I suppose I fit into option two. There’s no way I could get away with trying to look female. Indoors, now that’s different. Dressing ‘en femme’ to me is a way of expressing who I am and I’m more relaxed and comfortable. I get really annoyed with myself when I ‘have’ to dress in male attire for some reason or other.
I would say the term ‘en femme’ is an individual thing as say someone who only wears ladies jeans to go shopping would probably say they went out ‘en femme’ through to the ones that go the whole hog.

[Jolene Robertson]

Klaire; you bring up good points. For me it is either 3 or 4, with 4 being the goal. I have long hair and wear womens jeans or shorts all the time, but that is not En Femme to me although I do get called ma'am sometimes when we go out.
Jolene

[linda allen]

I've only been out a very few times but my goal has been to look and act as much like a woman as possible. That means the clothing and padding, wig, shoes, purse, makeup, wig, etc. I wasn't able to do anything with my nails, I'm sure that would have helped a lot. From taking and studying photos while I was out, I learned to do a better job each time.

It has never been my goal to be a "guy in a dress" or try to shock or upset anyone. I just want to look like another woman walking down the street or through the mall.

[Sandra1746]

When I try to define the term "acting like a woman" it becomes a pretty vague concept for typical daily activities such as grocery shopping, the mall, or a restaurant. Aside from the choice of restroom my wife, and most other GGs are doing most of the same things I'm doing whether I am dressed en-femme or not. (The same concept applies to "acting like a male".)

I regularly go out wearing Fem jeans and tops with my long hair and jewelry. I don't need 'forms', I'm growing my own. I also carry a purse. No makeup in general. Most of the GGs I see are dressed in a similar manner, my wife rarely wears makeup.

So since I don't belch, swear, fart and punch-out others in the grocery store am I acting "like a woman" or "...like a man"? Besides, proper makeup is supposed to be nearly invisible in most cases.

I'll claim I do go out en-femme, just in a more plain-dress mode, not fancy wear. I regularly get referred to by the feminine pronouns but I suspect it's the hair that does that.

Dressing like myself,
Sandra1746

[Michelle 51]

I class going out "In femme" as trying to pass a women.I dress casual in a skirt etc at home all the time but don't consider myself 'In femme" so much as just being myself.

[Marleena]

Always a 4 or I'll chicken out, I don't want/need extra attention drawn to myself.:)

[jillleanne]

#4 for me. There's more to it. That 'en femme' look and mannerisms displayed also comes with inner feelings that allow for the mannerisms to be displayed without having to act, if you will. For me, to be 'en femme' comes naturally and feels comfortable. For me there is no 'attempt' to put on a show or intentionally draw attention to myself. I just dress up and go out and act and feel good about it.

[Kate Simmons]

For myself, I would say it's your 4th option. I would take it a step further and include "being a woman" to the extent possible without having gone through physical transition. It's more of a mental transition using all of the material accoutrements traditionally associated with being a woman. I'm going to find out and may actually define it for myself in my new relationship as I will be presenting myself en femme 24/7.:)

[Cynthia Anne]

''Man I feel like a woman''! With that being said I'm pushing a four! Hugs!

[Sweet Caroline]

Don't always put stock in Wikipedia's definitions. It sounds like they cannot decide the true definition. There is only one definition, from the French ; En Femme, to appear as a woman, simple that's it. It is pronounced phonetically "ohn fohmme". I use the word to describe myself when dressed as a female instead of the dreaded words Crossdresser , Transvestite or Transgendered. Three words make my skin crawl, none of them offer any positive image or connotation of who I am or how I feel. I am not a product, so don't label me.

[Sandra1746]

I mentioned this thread to my wife, a 'tomboy GG', and she smiled. She did point out that 'males' don't like to shop, especially in clothing stores and ESPECIALLY the women's section. Even if they are just following their SO around.

So I have an example of "acting like a woman". I like to shop and I regularly browse the female clothing and accessories departments. However I do this regardless of my mode of dress. Grocery stores are pretty gender-neutral...lol.

What matters to me is being treated with courtesy, the "pronoun" is like icing but far from the most important aspect of going out en-femme.

Ambiguously,
Sandra1746

[NicoleScott]

For me, this discussion is attempting to put too fine a point on it. It's very simple (again, for me). I'm happy to be a man, and all that means, and I occasionally like to dress up/make up, and that's when I'm en femme.
- I went shopping for a new wig, in guy mode (drab).
- I went shopping for a new wig, en femme.
Simple enough for me. But I guess it's not so easily defined for those whose presentation isn't so polarized. I never attempt to present anywhere in the middle.

[BobbieBrooks]

There is only one definition, from the French ; En Femme, to appear as a woman, simple that's it. .

Some are much better at being en femme but with practice we all do better. Like climbing a ladder, start at the bottom and work towards the top rung. Everyone would like the top rung, but not all can reach it.

BobbieB

[Phoebe]

Maybe using the term "Femulate" could also be used. There is a blog posted by Stana called "Femulate" http://www.femulate.org/ her term she uses "fem·u·late (fem´ya-lat´) v., To imitate, copy, or try to be like a female."

[Diana Bain]

I try for a 4 all the time, if I don't I end up a 1...:D

[Kaz]

It is indeed a great question! For me 'en femme' is the full works... me trying to be as female looking as I can... So it is more than clothes. It sadly has to be with make-up because without make-up I look like a guy with a wig... I would so like to look feminine without make-up! But it is me 'transformed' into my trying to look and act female. C'est ca!

My avatar... 'en femme'!

[Richelle]

For me, when I say "en femmie" I am refering to #4. My "normal" apprearce these days is often #1 or 2. I always carry a samll purse even when out wearing coat and tie :(. When relaxing I often wear paints oor tops from stores like Dress Barn and have nail polish on.

Richelle

[PretzelGirl]

Outside of my long hair and pierced ears that I can't "put away", i only see it as putting together a full presentation. I don't try to see if something can go unnoticed or if I can blur genders.

[RainyNightGirl]

The difference between 3 and 4 is very subjective and is not based on you, its based on those who see or interact with you. So I would try to go for 4, for me the goal is to blend in as one of the females and not stand out but I have varying successes at that.

[Lynn Marie]

When I get dressed as a boy, I shave, comb my hair, put on my jeans and shirt and pull on my boots. When I get dressed en femme, I shave, put on my face and hair, pull up my stockings and attach them to my lingerie, put on my heels and skirt and top. Pretty much the same thing only different.

Why on earth would you want to get dressed and not look as much like a woman as you possibly can. Mixing the genders just confuses kids and me too.

[Wildaboutheels]

My interpretation of what the "majority" here think is that wearing any EXTERNAL item of clothing [obviously designed for women] such as skirts, heels, pantyhose, and bras and or breastforms with an OBVIOUS intent to appear as FEMALE breasts is going out "en femme". Clearly some people think it means going whole hog.

What so many regulars here fail/refuse to understand, no matter how many threads they read, is that any man wearing any of the above out in public is not necessarily trying to look "feminine" OR present themselves as a female. There ARE valid reasons for some clothing choices. Just because it has not occurred to you the WHY of a certain choice does not make it any less valid.

Cool thing is, many here don't need any validation or nod of approval from others about their clothing choices.They just wear what they like, or find fitting or comfortable.

[Lorileah]

I would say that for me it would be fully dressed and made up.

I say that because most the time I am wearing anywhere from 50-100% clothing that comes from the department in the store marked "women" (really more Juniors but you know what I mean). BUT I don't wear make up and even though my hair is down to the middle of my back the front left me a long time ago. And since the bottoms are shorts or slacks, I appear very much male. So while I am technically crossdressing, I am not "en femme" in my mind. Mostly because I can't grow my hair to fill my image and I won't wear wigs day to day and I am too lazy to put make up on :). Almost everything else is what women will wear or do in their routine lives (Nail polish, pierced ears, cologne.)

[Stephanie47]

I guess I fall into category three. I do my best to appear as a woman, even though I know I will not pass. My body structure and masculine facial feature kill any possibility of 'passing.' Maybe I make an 'unattractive' woman. That does not mean I should not dress in the manner I feel, i.e., undergarments, slip, hosiery, heels, dress and wig. If I still had the ability to grow hair on my head, I'd opt for a length that would only need a little styling for a feminine look. The bra thing, when I don't have real boobs? That's when I lost the ability to convince my wife that cross dressing made me more aware of my feminine side. She threw something about childbirth into the conversation too.

I guess the only way I'd throw myself into four is if I wanted to convey a total bald feminine style and convey being flat chested.

[Michaella]

I've done 1) and 4).

I do enjoy wearing skirts and other traditionally feminine items while presenting fully as male. The opportunities to do so are necessarily limited and must be chosen with care, but it is well worth it. It is very gratifying that there is more acceptance of that than there used to be. As for 4) it started for me as a "well I better try this once in my life!"

But I found I really enjoyed it. It's a way to have nearly complete freedom to wear anything feminine without creating an issue, if one blends in successfully. (I've not had any problems. I know I don't always "pass," but it has not led to any issues.) For example, if you pass or at least blend, then no problem wearing nylons and heels with your skirt, while presenting as a male I felt it was necessary to confine myself to opaque tights and flat boots, giving a look more like the the chaps in the first set of photos in Reine D's links (thank you for those, by the way). I would limit my jewellery to very simple ear studs, while presenting as female I could wear nice long dangly earrings, which I love. But I have to admit that I found a thrill in being able to see a woman when I looked at myself passing a reflective window.

The middle grounds seem to me to be very awkward, just asking for trouble while not really getting the full benefit of the femme styles.

Michaella

[Michaella]

I should add that I think everyone should be free to wear whatever we want, so that 2) and 3) should be real options. No one should have to be restricted by labels and categories. Recently I was in NYC and saw a wedding party passing through Central Park. One man was very well dressed in linen trousers and blazer, quite suitable for the weather and much in keeping with others in the group, and he had on very high heels, of a style we would normally consider a woman's, sling back, narrow toe, etc. (No nylons.) He seemed perfectly comfortable, in both senses, and confident. I don't think I'd be able to pull that off; I'm quite envious. I don't think he was trying to look like a woman at all, just allowing himself the freedom to wear what he wanted to. Good for him!

Michaella

[Eryn]

I spend most of my drab time in situation 1. I don't wear outwardly femme clothing but all my jeans and Capris come from the women's department. They're just more comfortable.

If I'm dressed, I'm in situation 3 and striving for situation 4. I want to be perceived and accepted as female. that's easier said than done!

[KlaireLarnia]

My interpretation of what the "majority" here think is that wearing any EXTERNAL item of clothing [obviously designed for women] such as skirts, heels, pantyhose, and bras and or breastforms with an OBVIOUS intent to appear as FEMALE breasts is going out "en femme". Clearly some people think it means going whole hog.

What so many regulars here fail/refuse to understand, no matter how many threads they read, is that any man wearing any of the above out in public is not necessarily trying to look "feminine" OR present themselves as a female. There ARE valid reasons for some clothing choices. Just because it has not occurred to you the WHY of a certain choice does not make it any less valid.

Cool thing is, many here don't need any validation or nod of approval from others about their clothing choices.They just wear what they like, or find fitting or comfortable.

Thanks for the replies, it made interesting reading and also fitted what I thought - which was that a majority people here saw "En Femme" as going all the way so to speak - Ie. full female clothing/appearance and look, not just the act of wearing feminine clothing.

When I am away and out of my local area I will wear female clothes but I make no attempt to appear female (Locally I only wear female jeans and trainers out in public or with my wife). So for example of a recent business trip I drove 6 hours in female jeans, trainers, top and bat-wing jumper. I had medium shoulder bag as my female jeans cannot even fit my phone in let alone keys, wallet etc. So outwardly I had female stuff. My face, voice, looks make it clear I am male and there is no attempt to disguise this. When I arrived at the hotel i was treated as any other person (and rightly so) and given an excellent service.

Now I never saw myself as going out "En Femme", just going out in female clothes. This is what sparked my question and the replies fit my own thoughts. Am I "En Femme"? No, I am just a man expressing himself using female clothes.

I hate to place myself in a box as I am as unique as everyone else here, but sometimes niggle will not go away. I think now it can...

Thanks again

[ReineD]

Further to my post #2, I'd like to add that I wrote it from the point of view of a person whose predominant gender identity is male, and who therefore feels he switches back and forth between "en homme" and "en femme".

If a person feels she is inwardly female (or inwardly a combination of both: not fully male nor fully female) despite her chromosomes or external appearance and she always dresses in a way that she feels comfortable even if this unconventional, whether she uses only a few feminine items, or all feminine items, or minimal or complete makeup, then she is expressing who she is and there is no switching between "en femme" or "en homme". IMO

[Kate Simmons]

You are quite correct Reine because once I begin my new relationship situation, there will be absolutely no need for me to be "en homme" at all. I will experience things from a feminine perspective.:)

[ArleneRaquel]

Option #3 for me, if others perceive me as something else tough toenails.

[Kelly Greene]

I have tried wearing a skirt and heels with a male shirt, no with, or makeup, and it does not feel right nor does it get good reactions from J.Q. Public.
I have been able to under dress, and my regular shoes are from the women's section "Sketchers", however I don't see this as En Femme.
En Femme for me is option 3 cloths, wig, forms, and makeup trying to look as pretty as i can. If I look pretty and behave like a woman.
Option 4 is a stretch goal at best, I am 49 and I doubt if I will ever fully pass as female without good deal of surgical help.

[Kaz]

Going with categories this time (you know I hate them!)... for me it is 3 and an I wish 4. 4 is a long stretch, and on a bad day so is 3... but I am not prepared to do 1 or 2. Just not me, though I totally respect those that are happy in this box! I have mentioned previously about how sometimes I feel that I cross dress as a male... ie my natural inclination is female but I get into the male role to do work and so on. This seems to be an increasing trend and Reine's comments about 'en homme' resonate well.

I always worry though that this sounds like two people in the same body, and I have posted about how I increasingly feel at home understanding the real me and who I am - not two people... one, but with many facets that seem to conflict and even compete, but which collectively make up the whole.

At home in my own company, I will wear whatever and be me... sometimes though I will want to 'transform' into this butterfly that is Kaz. And when I have, I am 'en femme'!

[Lori B]

I always wear my forms so,,,I guess I`m behind door #3:heehee::hugs:M_-ym_h5a34

[Nicole Brown]

I totally agree with and believe in Wikipedia's definition of en femme as being 'as a woman'. When I am presenting as Nicole, I look, act and behave in a feminine fashion. From my skin outward, every piece of my lingerie and clothing are designed to be worn by a woman. My makeup is soft and feminine, my nails are long and bright red and my perfume is delightfully scented and feminine. My hair is soft and styled in a woman's fashion, my jewelry matches my outfit and complements it. My shoes often have 3" or 4" heels, are in many bright colors and sometimes have beautiful bows at their toes.
When I am out and about, which is usually 3 or 4 times a week, I encounter other woman and when communicating with them I am just a woman talking with another woman. I long ago stopped thinking about or worrying about being anything other than just another woman.

[sterling12]

Option #4 for me, and just about everyone I know in this area. We sometimes get it wrong, bad fashion choices or whatever, but the effort is made. Quite simply for me, and people I know; "What would be The Point in going halfway?" Seems like a lot of effort expended with unsatisfactory results.

Don't misunderstand, everyone to their own thing! But, as someone previously mentioned, I think I'd be too frightened to do anything else. Going down the street with no makeup, looking like a guy with a dress on, No Thank You! I'm always going to TRY and get it right.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[ReineD]

When I am out and about, which is usually 3 or 4 times a week, I encounter other woman and when communicating with them I am just a woman talking with another woman. I long ago stopped thinking about or worrying about being anything other than just another woman.

I'd say (as trite as this sounds), you are who you are. If you do not identify fully as a woman all the time (if you are not transsexual), then even when you are dressed you are not talking to another woman as a woman. You would be talking to her as a person who is trans and who feels more feminine than other people who share your chromosomes, namely men. So you'll relate to her differently than a non-CDer would, but presenting like a woman in my opinion doesn't "turn" someone into a woman. I'm not including in this the transsexuals who've known all their lives they were in the wrong body.

My SO identifies as dualgender and this is the way that I always see him/her, no matter how he or she dresses. And we relate in the same way whether he is in guy mode or whether she is in girl mode, which is different than the way I relate to people who purely identify as men or women. My SO finds it is more effective to relate to our world when she presents as one or the other simply because most people don't quite know what to make of someone who is ambiguous.

[Brittany CD]

I'd say I'm #3, occasionally #4

[Sometimes Steffi]

I'd say nearly 4. What I don't do (yet) is try to modulate my voice to a feminine pitch. I also don't shave any hair except my face, so I'll usually wear clothing so my arm, leg and chest hair is not noticeable. Other than that, full on girl. Clothes, forms, wig, jewelry, makeup, nails and of course hip and butt enhancements and shapers to give me a more womanly figure.

[chris80]

probably 3 but trying for 4 and that I am never perceived as 2

[Nicole Brown]

I'd say (as trite as this sounds), you are who you are. If you do not identify fully as a woman all the time (if you are not transsexual), then even when you are dressed you are not talking to another woman as a woman. You would be talking to her as a person who is trans and who feels more feminine than other people who share your chromosomes, namely men. So you'll relate to her differently than a non-CDer would, but presenting like a woman in my opinion doesn't "turn" someone into a woman. I'm not including in this the transsexuals who've known all their lives they were in the wrong body.

I suppose that you have a point there Reine and don't really view it as trite. I am a transsexual woman who will begin her transition in the very near future. While not well along the path, I know what is right for me and how I should be. I long ago gave up trying to think like I use to think and now simply think as Nicole. Whether I am dressed and presenting as Nicole or not, I still believe that I am Nicole and always think like her. This is the basis for my statement about being a woman talking to another woman. Physically you are absolutely correct, but mentally and emotionally allows for this latitude.

[ReineD]

I am a transsexual woman who will begin her transition in the very near future.

OK, then what I said does not apply to you. I got confused by the focus in your post on your outward appearance and your statement that you feel differently when you are presenting as Nicole than when you are not. Women still feel feminine even if they don't wear jewelry or have soft hair. :p

If you always feel internally as a woman (not just when you are dressed), then in my opinion you are talking to her woman-to-woman. The only difference is your socialization vs. hers and perhaps differences due to hormonal influences on your bodies and emotions, but as you transition and afterwards, your memories will eventually become more about living as a woman than having lived as a man. IMO

It's difficult to tell who is TS on the board and who is not since no one puts labels on themselves. :)

[Chickhe]

It all depends... generally its a challenge to pull off a pass, but that's the goal, however, if the other person knows, then it feels bit funny to keep up the entire act (voice, manerisms). This is especially true if you know the other person. I guess it comes down to feeling unnatural and if its someone you don't know, there is more lattitude for experimentation with honest feedback.

[kimdl93]

Limiting myself to the categories, I'd say I strive unsatisfactorily for #4., but certainly #3. as a minimum, whenever I'm out in public. How I'm perceived by others is another matter.

[KlaireLarnia]

Sorry just been reading this, some of you have misunderstood my question.

I was asking what you TERMED "En Femme" - not which of my options you thought applied to you. I am not looking at who dresses to what level - just where the line between dressing and being "En Femme" is drawn.

Sorry for the confusion.

[kimdl93]

I think a question of this sort is often best answered in the context of our own experience.

[Debglam]

Definitely #4 for me. This is for a number of internal and external reasons. As for #1 - 3, I had to walk through the mall with no makeup on for a makeover appointment at MAC once. I felt terribly self-conscious and very uncomfortable.

Debby

[carhill2mn]

Number four best describes me when I am going out "en femme.