Underdressing and Transsexualism/GID [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

LisaMallon

07-12-2012, 02:16 AM

Well to take a different tack.
My gender therapist gave me a test and one of the questions was if you constantly wore some female clothing (inc underwear) everyday. It counted as a point towards being more TS.

To answer your question for myself, I did when I thought of myself as CD and I do now, since I am transitioning, but not transitioned and have to still spend some time in 'male' mode.
I felt and feel more comfortable doing it.

I've thought about this one quite a lot. The only answer I can come up with is signals that your brain interprets. Remembering that we are both tactile and visual animals.

Now if you are strongly TS (or even moderately) When you are in 'male' mode, you are getting conflicting signals.

Part of your brain tells you that you are female.
But parts of your body are giving conflicting signals. You ignore it as much as you can but (eg) your genitals are constantly sending tactile signals, more so as you move around.

Then there are missing signals that part of you thinks that should be there, eg breasts that are missing. Every time you look at yourself, or even just parts of yourself you get a mismatch again.
Every time I look down my body I get a mismatch, part of my brain expects breasts to be there, but they are not (also explains something personal about myself, all my life I have touched and rubbed my chest I do it all the time without thinking about it).

So there is confusion at the lower levels of your mind, much of what you are probably completely unaware of consciously, except that you just don't feel right.

Now you change clothes into female mode, now you are getting strong tactile and visual signals that match more closely what your 'internal' mental picture is.
So you feel more comfortable. That is another TS indicator, you feel more comfortable and relaxed when dressed as a female. rather than aroused/exited/etc.

Now, I have a personal indicator which might only be for myself. I feel more comfortable tucked properly.
My take on this is twofold. Firstly lack of movement 'down under' as you move around means less tactile signals being generated. It is a very sensitive area and your brain is constantly receiving signals from it, albeit at an unconscious level.
Secondly there is the visual aspect when you look at your self, either just in your underwear or if you wear (say) tight jeans, shorts, etc.

By the way this theory of mine about mixed signals would also explain the stress, unhappiness and various metal issues that sadly far too many TS people have until they transition.
There are constant conflicts of signals at your lower mental processing levels. With mismatches between them and and the internal mental model that expects certain signals ... but doesn't get them. This creates a constant stress.

It also explains why when you are at a CD level (and many have gone through this route discovering what they are) you tend to dress more strongly (either in clothes or underwear or both).
You need stronger signals to override the natural but incorrect ones your brain is getting.

When you transition, especially after some breast development, SRS, etc, etc. They more often than not, clothing tends to toned down.
If I am right about this, then it is because your natural body tactile and visual signals are now in match with your internal mental model, therefore you are normally more comfortable.
And you don't need those stronger signals as an 'override'.

So, re underdressing. It is a TS indicator. If it makes you feel more comfortable then you should do it. But, if you do it all the time, and you do it to be more comfortable in your daily life, might be worth having a chat to a therapist, even if just to find out how TS you really are.

CharleneT

07-12-2012, 04:18 AM

Yes,

and

Nope :( it did not

LisaMallon

07-12-2012, 05:11 AM

I agree Charlene, it doesn't, but I find that it takes the edge off, reducing stress a little bit.

And, being realistic it will take me a minimum of 2 years (hopefully not too much longer than that) to transition.
So, frankly I will take anything I can get right now to help me function.

I spend the majority of time now as female, the rest as 'androgenous'. But I had to go, for work reasons, into full 'male' mode earlier this week and I felt terrible.

I have now got so used to this tactile and visual feedback that going back was hard, now I understand why I was so uptight all the time. Just the constant stress eats away at you.
Some friends of mine said that I wasa much nicer and far more relaxed person in my female mode in my 'CD' days (now they know that is permanent).

And that is what it is, it is these constant mixed signals, mind vs body. It really chews you up. And the more you run away from it the more it costs you.
My natural nature is to be warm and caring, funny (in an odd ironic sort of way). Full of life. Intellectual. Adventurous.

But by running away from 'me' I have sacrificed all that, the terrible emotional price I have paid.
So the 'price' of transitioning is actually, from my point of view, zero.

If I can get the real me back again (and there are some small signs of that starting to happen) then everything I have to do to achieve that is worthwhile.
To be balanced and whole is my dream, and that is not just the physical, it is the emotional and mental.

Joanna41

07-12-2012, 05:21 AM

Well i underdress a little bit with what i can get away with. I don't feel it relieves anything as far as your question goes...but do my hose feel good on shaved legs!

Joanna

LeaP

07-12-2012, 06:00 AM

I did and it did help for a time. At some point it became frustrating.

jillleanne

07-12-2012, 07:49 AM

Although I do not consider myself TS, I do experience GID daily and know how to control it, for the most part. Underdressing MAY help prevent the gid from getting worse, but certainly does nothing to aleviate or lessen it.

Marleena

07-12-2012, 08:31 AM

Debby I underdressed off and on from the time I was a kid. It used to help a bit. In my teens it went to dresses etc. in private. In my twenties it escalated and I wanted to change sexes but there was no information highway in those days. Then my GF got pregnant, I married her and raised a family. The underdressing continued but it was like having a few beers it relaxed me but the problem was still there.

Fast forward to a year ago, Halloween of all days. I dressed completely for the first time, boobs, makeup, wig, the whole thing. It was a defining moment for me because I realized the girl I saw was supposed to be me. Now I know why I hated mirrors all those years and having my picture taken! I have gone out fully dressed and felt "right" finally. It progressed to GID and with help of my trans group I started HRT 3 months ago after going through the proper health care channels. I have calmed down completely. Yes my wife knows and is okay with it.:)

I'm not interested in SRS however since I'm in my late fifties, on limited income, and with a blended family and grandkids. If my "thing" fell off tomorrow I would not miss it though. I have not come out to family since I'm okay using guy mode for socializing.

Badtranny

07-12-2012, 08:33 AM

So, re underdressing. It is a TS indicator. If it makes you feel more comfortable then you should do it. But, if you do it all the time, and you do it to be more comfortable in your daily life, might be worth having a chat to a therapist, even if just to find out how TS you really are.

Lisa you seem perfectly lovely but this whole post just reads like a huge effort at justifying why you cross dress and it's hardly necessary. Based on your position, you must have had a miserable life up until therapy without the tucking, and female undergarments, and whatnot. I will be the first to say that I have no idea why people cross dress, but I can say without a doubt that in my experience, it is absolutely unnecessary in regard to transition.

But then again I suppose it's possible that I'm not "TS" enough. In fact throughout my transition, I don't think I've qualified on any of those dandy metrics. I really am a bad tranny. ;-)

kimdl93

07-12-2012, 08:35 AM

I probably shouldn't respond since, I either have a very minor GID or I've grown to just accept it) but I don't think underdressing ever really satisfied my desire to express this part of myself. I did it for decades, but never felt fully natural until I went all the way. Does that make any sense?

My guess is that a genuine transsexual (...sounds like a grade of beef, doesn't it....)would not find much relief in underdressing because they are still hiding their true self under male clothes.

Marleena

07-12-2012, 08:48 AM

Lisa you seem perfectly lovely but this whole post just reads like a huge effort at justifying why you cross dress and it's hardly necessary. Based on your position, you must have had a miserable life up until therapy without the tucking, and female undergarments, and whatnot. I will be the first to say that I have no idea why people cross dress, but I can say without a doubt that in my experience, it is absolutely unnecessary in regard to transition.

But then again I suppose it's possible that I'm not "TS" enough. In fact throughout my transition, I don't think I've qualified on any of those dandy metrics. I really am a bad tranny. ;-)

Melissa, I see crossdressing as a symptom of a much bigger issue. My priorities have changed to blending and being one of the girls. I go against the flow as family is important, I can't take away grandpa from my grandson or dad from my own kids. So I'm not willing to come out yet (maybe never) and don't care what anybody thinks.:)

kimdl93

07-12-2012, 09:45 AM

Melissa, I see crossdressing as a symptom of a much bigger issue..:)

Now Marleena...you make CDing sound like a disease. ;) Its not...its a wonderful and special advantage we have over the less fortunate.

Marleena

07-12-2012, 09:49 AM

Now Marleena...you make CDing sound like a disease. ;) Its not...its a wonderful and special advantage we have over the less fortunate.

Ahh... but I'm only talking about myself here Kim.:) I'm just giving Melissa my slant on things hoping it makes some sense. I went a bit off topic to explain my own situation.

MC-lite

07-12-2012, 10:17 AM

I can say that when one is truly TS, it's note merely about the clothing, it is about one's identity.
There's an old saying that goes like this:
When a crossdresser puts on a bra, she goes "aaahh!" :)
When a transsexual takes off a bra, she goes "aaahh!" :)

So true. (At least for me.) Although I must say that outward appearance has a lot to do with self-image. (i.e. if you're dressed to the nines, you feel really good about yourself.)

Aprilrain

07-12-2012, 11:31 AM

Yes, I underdressed on occasion. It was just as awful as full on dressing. I was compelled to CD, it wasn't really something I wanted to do, I had to do it. Anyway I found no lasting relief in any form of CDing and like Misty says I really don't get CDing but that's just me.

sandra-leigh

07-12-2012, 11:40 AM

Yes, and yes.

For me it was need, with not much rationality involved. I had to.

But really it was also "practice". I am now "full time" Transgendered, never wearing guy things (except maybe a sweatshirt on a cold day), and I have about "A" cup development (which is bigger volume than my wife.) The experience I got from wearing clothes and forms all over the place was important as I moved into 24/7 Transgendered. For example by the time I went on HRT, enough people in enough places had seen me in forms that I haven't hidden my actual development at all; I already went through the self-conscious phase and now it all is just "part of me".

Barbara Ella

07-12-2012, 12:46 PM

I am in a confused stage at the moment. I have accepted that I am transgendered, and I have a feminine presence within. Barbara is becoming more of a presence. She doesn't demand I dress full out, but demands that she be present in all my thoughts regardless of state of dress. Male dress does not change her desire to be present in my thinking. I do underdress 24/7, camisole, panties, thigh highs. The only thing this does is lessen the male tendencies a bit and make her less agressive, so it does help a bit, but does not remove any of my thoughts about gender. I do think my next stop is with a therapist.

Barbara

TerryTerri

07-12-2012, 07:23 PM

Several good answers and this is a question where I think many of us have different answers. You might say I came into the TS arch through crossdressing, but I'd like to qualify that some.

I was unaware of the malady I lived with. Occasional crossdresing was one of the ways in which the little girl inside me tried to get my attention. I would systematically start 'playing' with underdressing and sort of build a wardrobe, of sorts, stashed away in a secret place. Until a wave of guilt, remorse, and unwillingness to look at myself would envariably crop up. I'd throw it all away and 'walk away' from all that devient 'horrible' behavior. Until a length of time afterward I would start the cycle again. Repeat for way too many years.
Slowly but surely the little girl inside me worked on getting my attention and I slowly but surely matured. Somewhere along the way it was pointed out to me that crossdressing causes no harm. What a revelation that was. It really helped me to dump significant portions of guilt and shame accumulated over the years.

I remember the first time I sort of embraced cross dressing and wondering how far I'd go and still enjoy it, where was "MY" line with this. I would push my boundaries, but still would be curious about the next step. However, life routinely interferred and my crossdressing would have to hibernate. About a year before I really started to look at myself in regard to my gender, I was on a business trip and was staying in a hotel. We all know what fun that is! I remember having painted my toenails, shaved my legs and other such stuff and I was sitting on the couch in my room watching a football game. I was about as dolled up as I was capable and as I sat there I had an epiphany that I felt more whole and more complete than I could ever remember. I didn't know or understannd why, but sitting there felt good. That was the first conscience awareness I think I had of the fracture that existed inside of me as a transgendered person. I didn't realize how significant that epiphany would end up having on my life.
As the little girl inside me continually did not get my attention, she became slowly but surely sadder. I became depressed and despite all my efforts to eleviate the depression, it slowly but surely became worse and worse. In October 2008 I caught myself contemplating suicide and that scarred me. I managed to find a open-minded friend and I talked to her. I let it ALL out and I started the process of figuring out what was up with my gender issues. I found a gender specialist and she helped me take an honest look at myself and my life from a gender perspective and the more I looked, the more things made sense. So many times in my life, I basically acted as the scarred little girl that was inside me, not the intelligent mature 'man' that I thought I was. Anyway, the heel fit, I put it on and my internal self has been better than it has ever been.

Anyway, the little girl inside me used crossdressing to try and get my attention. But, as transsexuals understand, it is about what inside me, not what I'm wearing. I do not routinely crossdress currently. I am working on building a wardrobe as my current plan is to start my RLE in October and I do usually wear girl's jeans and other such. But, in a normal male attire manner, if that makes any sense.

Bree-asaurus

07-12-2012, 07:35 PM

Hey Deb,

No and No.

I didn't even wear panties when I was totally out as transgender/transitioning but still presenting as a man professionally. Why? Well because I wore slacks to work and boxers were super comfy and made peeing considerably easier.

Wearing panties did not and does not make me feel feminine and had zero impact on my gender identity issues. The HRT helped quite a bit but the "cure" was when more and more people started treating me like something other than a man. Actually, just coming out to the world was probably the biggest thing I did that helped me feel more "feminine". I began to feel authentic for the first time in my life and it had absolutely nothing to do with what I put on, it was ultimately what I took off that made the biggest difference. (the mask, I took off the mask)

Yeah... I didn't care about wearing panties... I actually hated it prior to my orchie. I would wear my men's boxer briefs as often as possible because they were sooo much more comfortable. Things tend to be more comfortable when they're designed for your anatomy. Post-orchie though, I wear panties no problem, YAY! Not that it really matters and they're usually still just female tighty whities :P My main concern has always been the bulge, not the brief ;)

Raquel June

07-12-2012, 08:47 PM

When I was much younger I wore panties and/or a bra a few times under my guy stuff, but it just made me feel like more of a pervert.

I actually still wore guy underwear until a few months after I went full-time, because the idea of panties still made me feel CD-ish. But I got over it.

Badtranny

07-12-2012, 11:36 PM

Yeah... I didn't care about wearing panties... I actually hated it prior to my orchie. I would wear my men's boxer briefs as often as possible because they were sooo much more comfortable. Things tend to be more comfortable when they're designed for your anatomy. Post-orchie though, I wear panties no problem, YAY! Not that it really matters and they're usually still just female tighty whities :P My main concern has always been the bulge, not the brief ;)

The orchi is pretty darn cool. My nuts were driving me nuts.

Now that I'm wearing women's slacks that fit totally different than my old ones, I find that I'm just trying to avoid panty lines. The size and the cut need to be just right for some pants. The boy short style is generally a safe bet, but those tend to ride up a bit in the rearage. As I get less conservative and mix in some lighter colored slacks, I will then have to worry about the color of my undies.

It was way easier back when I used to just wear women's jeans and t-shirts. ;-)

Miranda-E

07-13-2012, 12:27 AM

Hi,

I'm curious to know if any of you (TS or anyone with some degree of GID) ever underdressed and if it relieved your GID to any extent.

Thanks,
Debby

its really more of a crossdresser thing.

Simply Joslyn

07-13-2012, 12:55 AM

I'm not quite sure how I should dive into this, I will say that before I started to underdress I dressed very often and I mean very, I just felt more focused and comfortable that way, I will say now I do underdress very much day not to sound strange I also use a gaff I feel it is much like preperation let alone i enjoy seeing myself more in the mirror. Now this all may make me seem strange too some, but I won't let that change me I've done enough conforming for this life time, but as per your question its all about you, if you feel that your more comfortable underdressed than so be it its all about you remember that and do what makes you happy, that is after all what we're all looking for.

Elizabeth

07-13-2012, 01:07 AM

Hi,

I'm curious to know if any of you (TS or anyone with some degree of GID) ever underdressed and if it relieved your GID to any extent.

Thanks,
Debby

Hi Debby,

Yes I did underdress, both in secret and with my exwife knowing about that last ten years of our marriage. It did help with the dysphoria because I was able to rationalize that I was at least acknowledging to myself. In the end though, it was not enough and I divorced and went full time.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Noemi

07-13-2012, 01:32 AM

Karinsamatha

07-13-2012, 06:09 AM

HI Deb,
I always under dress. And it helps me feel better. I am a girl in my head many times during the day. I pretend that I am a girl, and under dressing helps me.

I have been angry lately. It has gone beyond the question of why or what, to how am I going do deal with how this feels. It is like I am living half of a life, and a lonely one at that. I hurt tonight.

Tonight I subbed, filled in for someone on a lounge type job, and the vocalist is Trans. And wears make up, long hair, girl jeans and top. And there I was faced with her. And it made me shut down, I blocked out how I really felt. But there I was playing my male role, I am such a coward...
Everybody treats her great, and she is very sweet and a good vocalist too.

So I am home and dressed up casual and it feels allot better. I am a mentally tenacious individual, but this is allot for me to deal with, I feel so alone. I am drinking tea, and relaxing, trying to.

♥
Noemi

I feel for you I was at that point in Dec. In May I had my first session of therapy - best thing I ever did for myself!

Back to the questions.

Yes, and slightly.
I did underdress for about 2 years. It did help slightly by keeping the nut's and stuff from moving around.

Badtranny

07-13-2012, 07:52 AM

Tonight I subbed, filled in for someone on a lounge type job, and the vocalist is Trans. And wears make up, long hair, girl jeans and top. And there I was faced with her. And it made me shut down, I blocked out how I really felt. But there I was playing my male role, I am such a coward... Everybody treats her great, and she is very sweet and a good vocalist too.

So I am home and dressed up casual and it feels allot better.

Yes this is a recipe for loneliness. That singer is living her own life, and you are ...not. It's very sad but I think that acknowledging your fears is a really good start. Remember this feeling and use it to help push you toward the truth. Your truth. The scene you just described is sad and I know you want to be yourself.

Krististeph

07-13-2012, 09:34 AM

It never hurt anything.

TS TG CD are not disorders, either... So there is really nothing it could help as part of a 'cure' or 'change'.

It does help ameliorate some of a feelings- like a fulfillment perhaps.

ReineD

07-13-2012, 05:11 PM

Everyone, I've just deleted the last 8 posts that were bickering over how someone said something. In an attempt to save this thread, I've reworded how she said it, hopefully in a way that will still convey her meaning without ruffling anyone's feathers.

I'd appreciate it if in the future members could limit personal comments that have nothing to do with the OP, to PMs.

Debglam

07-15-2012, 06:20 PM

noeleena

07-16-2012, 04:28 AM

Hi,

Never had G I D fact is never knew what it was till i came on the forums & even then thought ...what...

Underdressing what for no need or did,

Uncomfortably masculine,

In what way, body no not really, i was not masculine to start with.only my facial features, so where do i go from here.

Not trans never did dressing as talked about here, yet i was different ,did not have issues about who i was or what i was, in reguard to being I S,

There did come a time i would live as a normal woman yet clothes = female= did not influance me as i read about here,
I was spared that angish of not knowing what i was, of cause does not matter any more im just a woman,

...noeleena...

JohnH

07-16-2012, 07:49 AM

I will leave the answer to the dear experts on this forum, they will answer in due time.
I can say that when one is truly TS, it's note merely about the clothing, it is about one's identity.
There's an old saying that goes like this:
When a crossdresser puts on a bra, she goes "aaahh!" :)
When a transsexual takes off a bra, she goes "aaahh!" :)

I do feel much better having breasts and soft skin than I did before HRT. The HRT has helped to lift myself out of decades long depression.

I guess I would be like a transsexual because when I take off my bra (and I still call myself a "he") I go "aahh!" :)

My underwear is strictly functional - cheap cotton bras to support my breasts and Hanes men's briefs.

I consider myself a two-spirited individual - a masculine side and a feminine side - hence the retention of my masculine name and pronouns.

John

LisaMallon

07-20-2012, 04:35 AM

Debby, it is so individual that there are no clear 'rules' as too what you personally do that works.

My story is different from X, and they are different from Y and so on. But it is my story.

To keep it simple, if under dressing makes you feel a bit better at the time then do it, if not then don't.
But what works for you doesn't mean it works or doesn't work for someone else.

One thing I have picked up is that every transition story is so individual. Everyone has come to the point of deciding to transition by so many routes.

But, people being people, sometimes have a tendency to 'reinvent the past' (this is the basis of false memory syndrome).
In other words, how you got to where you are, in reality, was a crazy zig-zag process, full of back-forward, up/downs, etc.

But afterwords the brain tries to create a cohesive narrative out of it. As though there is was some definite constant and 'logical' flow.

For some people this is the case of course, but most are like me in that this has been a 'magical mystery tour' ... on a roller coaster, while drunk, with an ejector seat that goes off randomly and no seat belt and instead of an airbag there is a row of spikes that pop up.

Nearly all of us are all over the place before we decide to transition .. and then often go even more all over the place for a while until we settle down a bit.

So go for what works for you.

LisaMallon

07-20-2012, 05:11 AM

Melissa, that was one thing that came up with my Gender therapist and was on the 'official' question form.
It is not definite, but CAN be an indicator, which is why they test for it, at least here in Australia.

As for my sensory theory, look our brains are different, we all know this. But I'm interested in how this works.

Why does this constant feeling of femaleness actually work? Why do some things give, at least temporarily, some comfort (note I did not say relief).
Why do so many TS's start with putting on their mother's bra at age 7 (like me)?

There are reasons for this, but the research is paltry, realistically until about the last 5-10 years we did not even have a clue. Even now we are only just beginning to get some hints into this.
Frankly we know (and that is not a lot) about the Higgs boson than we know about transexuality.

And here is my observations, every TS who starts transition tells a completely different and very individual story of how they got to there. Some uplifting, some heart rending, some both. But all very individual.

After transition, sadly, too many (not all) tell the same story, almost a reinventing of the past to fit some narrative that is 'acceptable' at this moment in time.

Being a member, then for a time a committee member, of a gender support group opened my eyes a bit.
Some of the vicious attacks by some (and I mean just some) TS people on CD people, well frankly I could not believe.

Really put me off a lot of TS people, fortunately I have great friend who transitioned 20 years ago who is not like that at all. And very supportive of CDs

As I will be.. Cousins and sisters as I see them.

But, I got an email about my other thread, my 'style' consultant .. and got a lecture about "you must have FFS".
Got a diatribe about my picture which, deliberately, does not not show my face much .. and is fuzzy.
"You must have FFS". My attitude is basically "sod off".

Yes, your opinion, based on a fuzzy picture is so much more important than a qualified counsellor, who has worked with dozens of girls transitioning, recommended to me by my,very experienced, gender therapist .. and who I have met face to face????

And it is that sort of attitude gives a lot of TS people a very bad reputation.

Barbara Ella

07-20-2012, 02:26 PM

Melissa, please let me add another thought I had as I read through this again. Everyone senses differently. Some are tactile. some are auditory, some are olfactory,and some are visual. I do not know which sensory element you use that gives you the most feminine, but I would suspect that visual plays a big role for you, and not seeing the clothing does not provide as much of the feminine feeling. I may be more tactile. I love the act of putting on the clothes as I underdress. I love the thigh highs since i can put my hand against my leg and feel the lace top, and i can rest my hand on my shoulder and feel the cami straps, so I have reminders throughout the day. No comparison with the visual feelings when fully dressed, but that cannot happen often enough.

Barbara

LisaMallon

07-20-2012, 08:35 PM

I'm similar to you Barbara, more tactile than visual. Maybe 70%/30% ratio. But everyone is different.
Explains why I am not a big photo person, amongst other things.

That's another reason why my 1st year of transition plan works for me.
Basically: Male -> Androgenous -> Female in terms of my full time presentation in public.

So now I am virtually full time androgenous now. And will steadily feminise my looks.
Now I am quite happy with that process, but others have their own personal route that works for them.

Elizabeth

07-20-2012, 09:31 PM

HI Deb,
I always under dress. And it helps me feel better. I am a girl in my head many times during the day. I pretend that I am a girl, and under dressing helps me.

I have been angry lately. It has gone beyond the question of why or what, to how am I going do deal with how this feels. It is like I am living half of a life, and a lonely one at that. I hurt tonight.

Tonight I subbed, filled in for someone on a lounge type job, and the vocalist is Trans. And wears make up, long hair, girl jeans and top. And there I was faced with her. And it made me shut down, I blocked out how I really felt. But there I was playing my male role, I am such a coward...
Everybody treats her great, and she is very sweet and a good vocalist too.

So I am home and dressed up casual and it feels allot better. I am a mentally tenacious individual, but this is allot for me to deal with, I feel so alone. I am drinking tea, and relaxing, trying to.

♥
Noemi

Hi Noemi,

I remember having those feelings and worse. I always felt guilty. It was like there were girls out there living the life and taking all the heat, so people like me could live in secret. It made me feel like a coward and like I was doing something wrong. But let me tell you, those things are not true. Those of us out here living the "life" is something we choose and I don't see it as a burden to anyone.

Everyone has a different life circumstance and those things contribute to whether or not one can live "the life". Instead of feeling bad for yourself, enjoy what time you can and work towards whatever goal you have set for yourself, in regard to your dressing and living your life as you see fit. Chin up.

Elizabeth

Debglam

07-21-2012, 04:28 PM

But, people being people, sometimes have a tendency to 'reinvent the past' (this is the basis of false memory syndrome).
In other words, how you got to where you are, in reality, was a crazy zig-zag process, full of back-forward, up/downs, etc.

But afterwords the brain tries to create a cohesive narrative out of it. As though there is was some definite constant and 'logical' flow.

Lisa, that says volumes! Hit's close to home with me.

LisaMallon

07-22-2012, 03:07 AM

Barbara, for me, there is an implication of being more tactile. I'd actually rather do SRS first.
I'd rather feel fully female, then work on looking female.

The usual way, and the 'official process' is the exact opposite. Which is probably fine for many women.

But frankly,. really, really frankly I hate the 'body signals' I get and miss the ones I don't get.
They distract me and irritate me.

'Cross talk' in electronic engineering terms, which might sound a bit technical, but it is a good analogy for what is going on.

Take a simple example. All my life I have sat crossing my legs, except in certain public occasions (hiding basically).
For me it is far more natural.

The other day I was working on something sitting at the computer and I squeezed the 'nuts' .. ouch a bit.
And I got angry. Pissed me off no end. I am going to have these blasted things irritating me for the next couple of years at least ... grrr.

Hopefully hormones will quieten that sort of thing down a bit, because I feel a bit frustrated at times.

"Are we there yet"? Sadly not for a while.

Fortunately my bizarre sense of humour usually comes to my rescue and I can laugh at it .... after the grr (or crying) period.

God, I so know I'm going to be a 3 bucket girl when I start hormones.

LisaMallon

07-22-2012, 03:19 AM

Deb I got really close to transitioning 10 years ago. I mean really close.

And I ran away. Note I did not deny. I knew (by then) I was a transsexual. but I thought if I just got another relationship, job, career, worked really, really hard, did lots of things .. I would not think about it.
So I could escape from it.

Well that worked out well didn't it? My gender therapist picked me on the first meeting.

Broke down crying in front of my (now ex) wife and told her I was a transsexual.

Note that I did not tell her I was a CD, I actually told her I was a TS.
Then tried to backtrack and pretend to be a CD.
She picked up the difference, as her leaving letter said (which I got some days later after she left "to go to a friends place for dinner" .. and never came back).

All I did was waste 10 years.

Meghan

09-17-2012, 10:07 PM

Hi Lisa

I believe you are making an extremely valid and interesting point about the disconnect between the physical signals we receive vs. what is actually happening.

For example, when I have to do manual work in drab mode with my fingernails long, it CREEPS me out. I hate it. But when I am home and can be myself, my nails feel wonderful.

I have never worn boxers because I don't like the feeling of hanging out. I LOVE being tucked and tight and controlled down there. Not because I associate it with being a girl so much as it just feels better that way. It feels good that way. It helps me feel sexy.

The sub-conscious mind is a powerful thing. I think there is something powerful in us happening to make us want to attract instead of being attracted, if that makes sense. We want to display ourselves. I think the physical and electrical sensations the brain receives needing to be in concert with what the brain believes and wants is a potentially incredible explanatory variable that deserves more consideration.

Thank you for an enlightening discussion.

Meghan

Jay Cee

09-19-2012, 06:10 AM

Not sure where I am on the GID liine, but underdressing definitely helps keep me sane. Genie bras and panties are the norm under my work clothes.

Traci Elizabeth

09-19-2012, 10:52 PM

There's an old saying that goes like this:
When a crossdresser puts on a bra, she goes "aaahh!" :)
When a transsexual takes off a bra, she goes "aaahh!" :)

That needs to be engraved in granite taken from Yosemite National Park since the OP is from California.

When I walk into the house, I can not rip my bra off fact enough.

Did I ever under-dress which I assume the OP is referring to wearing panties or some other intimate female clothing item(s)l? Nope! I simply went from male clothes one day to woman's clothes the next and have worn woman's clothes 24/7 ever since.

Pink Person

09-20-2012, 05:40 AM

OMG. Crossdressing is never just about crossdressing. Crossdressing is never just about the clothes. It's about symbolic gender expression.

My message to people is that you don't have to take hormones, have FFS and BA, or get an orchiectomy to justify wearing a pair of panties.

If you can't wear the clothes of your self-identified gender with some positive amount of relief and comfort then you shouldn't be contemplating, pursuing, or making body modifications that can't be reversed.

TS people who never tire of claiming they can't understand TG people who are not precisely like them are perversely disingenuous. It's a form of abusive chauvinism that doesn't ring true no matter how you sing it. It's also a double-edged sword that can be used to cut anyone down. If a cisgender woman strikes you with it, don't say you weren't warned.

Breanna Jaqueline

09-20-2012, 06:46 AM

Boxers? yuck! I don't know how anyone with male parts can stand things flopping around down there! I always underdress now, no bra though, I really don't see the point of that when you have no breasts to support, plus that gets pretty obvious. Wearing male undies seems gross to me now, and i won't unless absolutely necessary (I don't know what situation that would be).
I wear panties cause I can, and I can't wear anything else since a) my spouse won't allow it and b) I'm still closeted to the rest of the world. There isn't anything wrong with it.
However I do get the impression that 'underdressing' is often looked down as perverse/odd/too embarrassing from this site, and this helps contribute to the stigma of doing so.

Did I ever under-dress which I assume the OP is referring to wearing panties or some other intimate female clothing item(s)l? Nope! I simply went from male clothes one day to woman's clothes the next and have worn woman's clothes 24/7 ever since.
Traci, can you explain this a little more please? Did you ever have the desire to underdress and not do it? Did you fully dress as a women ever before you went 24/7? What feeling or thoughts flipped the switch to change one day?

elizabethamy

09-20-2012, 07:12 AM

OMG. Crossdressing is never just about crossdressing. Crossdressing is never just about the clothes. It's about symbolic gender expression.

My message to people is that you don't have to take hormones, have FFS and BA, or get an orchiectomy to justify wearing a pair of panties.

So true! Pink Person has it right -- crossdressing is not a hobby that a sane person would take up for kicks -- it's not weekend softball, fishing, model trains, or gardening. It's a compulsion that exists because ALL of us on this site, from the "look at my new dress" occasional dressers to the transitioning transsexuals -- are to varying degrees transgendered. I remain baffled by the divisions. Underdressing? It's a huge and helpful thing to me, but why should I or anyone expect that it would be a part of everyone else's life?

LeaP

09-20-2012, 08:04 AM

If you can't wear the clothes of your self-identified gender with some positive amount of relief and comfort then you shouldn't be contemplating, pursuing, or making body modifications that can't be reversed.

...

I think you would be surprised at how often this not the case. Expressing is not the same as being and, for many, the clothes are a powerful reminder of what is not. Truly, it's not about the expression (clothing).

Pink Person

09-23-2012, 01:19 AM

I’m surprised that my previous comments could be so confusing to a smart person.

Self-identified (trans) feminine people have self-identified (trans) feminine beings that can be expressed by the clothes they wear. If you are too busy being yourself to find time to express your being in any manner then clothing choices will never get made.

If your clothes remind you of "what is not" instead of "what is" then you should get some help to dress yourself.

Badtranny

09-23-2012, 02:06 AM

I’m surprised that my previous comments could be so confusing to a smart person..

Pink, I NEVER "underdressed". I barely even crossdressed until my year of experimentation. (ahhh that crazy 2009)

To this day (after transition) I don't care one way or another about the clothes. I do not get any kind of thrill getting dressed every morning, except when my jewelery totally coordinates. I wear women's clothes cuz I want to look cute and I don't want to look like a dude.

Pink Person

09-23-2012, 09:34 AM

I'm not a fashion doctor. I don't care if people underdress or overdress or dress just right like Goldilocks. However, I do find all of the tortured denials about the positive benefits of crossdressing or transdressing or simply dressing to be sadly phony. No one cares when you started dressing to suit yourself. However, if you've never done it then you plainly don't understand your own skin and what's in it.

Badtranny

09-23-2012, 10:29 AM

However, if you've never done it then you plainly don't understand your own skin and what's in it.

You couldn't possibly be talking to me. I mean really.

Inna

09-23-2012, 10:39 AM

weather one or the other is right, truth of the matter is much simpler. Testosterone driven cognitive mechanics will not posses ability to fully understand and comprehend Estrogen rich emotional content. Vice verse, Estrogen mind will no longer feel and carry a T charge which makes two worlds as far apart as Mars from Venus.
So the point of view is correct on both sides however distant from each other.

Kaitlyn Michele

09-23-2012, 10:48 AM

Speaking from a transsexual POV is not comparable to a crossdressers POV.....and you have to leave out the confusing and unknowable issue of whether you "know" what you are and all the personal feelings around it..

if you are transsexual, the ONLY relief you will ever feel from your feeling of otherness is to express your femaleness...and femininity is only one way to express femaleness.. for many its the only way, even if its just underdressing...
but for many transsexuals, they don't do any dressing or underdressing...they run headlong into maleness and for many years may not even consider their femaleness...i've seen it over and over..

we are very good at repressing the feelings ...my best buddy is another melissa, and she never ever dressed or underdressed...it made her fell like an "idiot" in her words... my friend dusty was playing sex roles with her girlfriend...and looked at herself dressed at 53 yrs old for the first time...and it was an OMG, holy f*** s*** moment (or so she says..hehe).....she almost immediately transitoned!!!... on and on it goes..i dressed constantly and when not dressing thought about it, but put it in a corner of my head that avoided for 40 yrs.....and if you do go down the repression path, the universal outcome is that OMG moment and your life becomes about what you are going to do about it..

for me personally, around my marriage time, i swore off crossdressing...but it was so bad that over a couple yrs the only expression i felt was that i have small hands, and i let my pinky nail grow a little and curved it just a little...and i'd sit there watching tv, or be in a meeting and i'd stare at it...how sad

also i totally rejected jewelery and cologne of any kind...altho not inherently feminine, they came too close to the fire... this was not what i thought at the time btw... i just felt like i was keeping on keeping on...

so pink i don't think abouts tortured denials or being phony....its about the way a transsexuals self awareness tends to pinball around uncontrollably..resulting in vastly different paths and outcomes for those of us that take the step and live completely nd totally as women....

maybe if you look at it totally analytically you could say that a person that IS transsexual, but honestly doesnt consider themselves so and never ever considers or dresses in female attire of any kind doesn't understand their own skin...but saying its a denial or phony thing is off the mark..

.....

Sara Jessica

09-23-2012, 11:31 AM

I'm going to reply with a little trepidation...but at the same time I'm gonna have some fun with this.

Originally when I read this thread, this feeling came from those stupid trans-hierarchy's that are out there. Like, "OMG, is my TS-ness going to be called into question if I admit to something such as underdressing???"

Then again, I don't care so much what others perceive in me. I have shared enough about myself and am satisfied with my own sense of honesty to know who and what I am. But still, it cracks me up that it even takes a leap of faith for one who identifies as TS, or perhaps better put, as a female, to admit that wearing panties somehow made/makes them feel better.

There, I said it. My name is Sara and yes, I underdress.

It is one of those things that in my daily life trying to balance two genders that helps me cope. I'm not one who writes about my undies in panty threads (OK, but if you must know, they're Calvin Klein, a gorgeous shade of medium purple with aqua lace trim about the waistband :battingeyelashes: ), not that there is anything wrong with that. I don't write about the make & model numbers of panties, bras, shapewear, etc. that I've seen before (not that there's anything wrong with that either but it does seem a bit OTT). I don't wear a bra in guy mode because really, I don't have boobs so it'd be rather unnecessary and besides, I'm not in the mood of having to explain the straps showing through my top...er, shirt. I sometimes choose to wear pantyhose or tights under my pants as well. And after a day's work, they typically come off right when I get home.

There, it's Sunday morning and I have confessed my sin.

Fact of the matter for me is that it's not how the clothes feel, it's how they make me feel. I will do this for as long as my commitment to a middle path survives which is intended to be for the rest of my life. Then if someday I do end up transitioning, I guess pretty underwear won't matter in the least bit and I'll start buying it in 3-packs at WalMart.

Rianna Humble

09-23-2012, 03:27 PM

if someday I do end up transitioning, I guess pretty underwear won't matter in the least bit and I'll start buying it in 3-packs at WalMart.

Two comments:

Firstly, this is typical overstatement by people who don't understand the difference between cross-dressing because you like the feel of a different gender's clothing and wearing the clothing appropriate to your true gender. Since you self-identify as transsexual even though you do not need to transition, I would have hoped that you would have understood.

There is nothing wrong with any woman who wants to look pretty or with any man who wants to look stylish and/or attractive, but a woman does not choose pretty clothes because they are women's clothes, she chooses them because they are pretty clothes and therein lies the difference of attraction for an MtF cross-dresser or an MtF transsexual.

Second point, if someone can only afford WalMart clothing (not all of us have 6 figure salaries) then there is nothing wrong with that person buying what they can afford and it is absolutely wrong for any member here to look down on or to dis that person. :angry:

Badtranny

09-23-2012, 05:33 PM

There, it's Sunday morning and I have confessed my sin.

When I first discovered this site I was looking for answers, and I was horrified to find out that I was wrong again about what I was because I didn't cross dress throughout my life. I read through all the stories and kicked myself for not cross dressing as a kid. I felt kind of embarrassed that I never did and it wasn't something I would have been proud of. So here I am, basically believing that I had been wrong about wanting to be a girl all those years because I didn't even cross dress. Clearly there must be something else wrong with me.

I joined the forum anyway, but it wasn't until my therapist told me some weeks or months later, that I wasn't as unusual as I thought I was, that I began to understand. I came to this place differently than some, but I came and now I'm on the other side and can look back with a clarity that I didn't have before. The clothes simply mean something different to different people. To some they represent everything feminine, to others they are just pretty underpants. I don't know that it matters one way or the other.

Anna Lorree

09-23-2012, 06:07 PM

Wow, so I just read this whole entire thread and what I learned is that each individual person had an individual experience, which lead to an individual history regarding underdressing. Just to add my story, I have underdressed regularly for about 3 years now. For me, it is a nod to myself, an admission to myself that yes I am TS, yes I am trying to figure it out, and yes I am willing to change parts of my male past already. Am I transitioning yet? Not with HRT or surgery, but I am changing as I explore myself and try to deal with this reality I have ignored since I first realized its existence at age 15.

I think one of the things about being TS that bothers me the most is that there is no test for it. I can't give a blood sample, pee in a cup, or take a written exam to find out if I am "really" TS. Everything else in life today has such a test, but this doesn't. That is I think part of why people compare stories and ask questions like the OP. We are trying to figure stuff out and we ask "Am I like them?" Personally, ANYTHING you can do to help you deal with being TS is fair game as long as you don't injure other people or break a law. Want to wear a pair of panties? Go for it! Want to have a formal tea party? Knock yourself out! Need to transition? By all means, do so! Just don't sit in the dark, so afraid of life that you start thinking about long walks off short piers. Life is a gift, thank God ours are all different! Let's enjoy our differences, not throw rocks because Melissa didn't underdress, but I do.

Anna

Bree-asaurus

09-23-2012, 06:15 PM

I think one of the things about being TS that bothers me the most is that there is no test for it. I can't give a blood sample, pee in a cup, or take a written exam to find out if I am "really" TS.

Now that I know who I am, I wouldn't take a test even if they had one. Once you open yourself up and find out what you're really feeling deep down, tests won't matter.

If I took a test and it said I wasn't TS, that would f*** me up. And I certainly wouldn't go back to how things were before because of a test. What if the test didn't pick up on the right things? What if there was an error? I'm going to live my life the way I need to in order to be as sane and happy as possible, test or no test.

Marleena

09-23-2012, 06:20 PM

@ Sarah I thought I was TG when I joined here. What I've been learning here is many TS women knew something was different about them at an early age (5 for me) but I didn't know why I was different. Why would I at age 8 just decide to put on my sister's dress, nylons, and undergarments? I just knew that I felt right suddenly and I wasn't doing anything wrong. I got caught and chastized for it so I was careful after that. In my twenties I wanted to be a girl real bad, so much so I was taking my GF's birth control pills. I had no clue what to do because it was way before the internet. I gave up on the idea and went into a guy's life I was supposed to, or taught to. I think many of us older girls suppressed who we were and conformed. So here I am again in my lafe fifties and on HRT to manage my GID. All of the childhood memories have come back to me that were buried for decades.

Sure some TS girls never CD'ed but maybe they came to the realization they were TS in other ways. There is no merit badge for being TS and never having crossdressed.:)

*Disclaimer* I am not speaking for anybody else here, just my own opinions. There are some experts here that can give better facts than me.

ArleneRaquel

09-23-2012, 06:23 PM

Marleena,
Terrific post as always darlin.

Marleena

09-23-2012, 06:32 PM

Marleena,
Terrific post as always darlin.

Thanks Arlene but I hate spilling my guts.

Anna Lorree

09-23-2012, 07:18 PM

Now that I know who I am, I wouldn't take a test even if they had one. Once you open yourself up and find out what you're really feeling deep down, tests won't matter.

If I took a test and it said I wasn't TS, that would f*** me up. And I certainly wouldn't go back to how things were before because of a test. What if the test didn't pick up on the right things? What if there was an error? I'm going to live my life the way I need to in order to be as sane and happy as possible, test or no test.

I certainly can't find fault with your statement, Bree. The point I was trying to make was we live in a society where we are used to taking a test and then being told "X". I am a product of that society, so I am conditioned to want just such a test. If you are happy being you, go be you! You'll recall I eluded to exactly what you are saying, you have to do whatever it is that works for you and keeps you sane. For myself, I'm trying to figure out what that is going to look like for me. I'm fighting a battle between knowing my old life image isn't working, but being afraid to pay the price of giving it up. Slowly, the girl is winning, but there is still a long way for me to go. My simple wish is that I could take a test that would tell me definitively that yes, I am TS. I think the reason I wish for such a thing is that then there would be a really smart person in a lab coat telling the world that it is OK for me to stop being Allen, and in fact better for me to live as Anna. I suspect that after transition, I will likely feel very much like you do now.

Anna

Anna

Sara Jessica

09-23-2012, 07:27 PM

Firstly, this is typical overstatement by people who don't understand the difference between cross-dressing because you like the feel of a different gender's clothing and wearing the clothing appropriate to your true gender. Since you self-identify as transsexual even though you do not need to transition, I would have hoped that you would have understood.

I was torn about whether to specifically identify that I was half-kidding about that last sentence of mine.

Only half?

Yes, because it seems that there are at least some who transition (often a vocal "some") who seem to eschew pretty as if they wish to distance themselves from any chance of perception that it's about the clothes in any way, shape or form.

I left the sentence without explanation because it speaks to some of the tone about underdressing previously described, hence my trepidation because one's transness is often measured BY SOME IN THE COMMUNITY as to how much suffering they have endured and/or how NOT CD'er they are. It's like if you admit that style is fun and this matters to you, how you present yourself to the world matters to you, then perhaps you are not trans enough.

There is nothing wrong with any woman who wants to look pretty or with any man who wants to look stylish and/or attractive, but a woman does not choose pretty clothes because they are women's clothes, she chooses them because they are pretty clothes and therein lies the difference of attraction for an MtF cross-dresser or an MtF transsexual.

I have a (dearly departed) friend who took a lot of grief because she chose to transition AND remain faithful to the pretty. She was accused in many circles of being not trans enough. I do think that a problem she ran into is that her newfound freedom to express herself ran headfirst into a freedom to experiment which made others perceive that it was the clothes, the shoes, the makeup which mattered. No, this was all just expression but I think the perception was compounded by her somewhat limited pre-transition experiences in the real world.

And anyone who knows me knows that if I went down that transition path tomorrow, my own personal sense of style would remain unchanged. Some women choose to pay attention to this sort of thing, some don't. Same holds true for transwomen.

Second point, if someone can only afford WalMart clothing (not all of us have 6 figure salaries) then there is nothing wrong with that person buying what they can afford and it is absolutely wrong for any member here to look down on or to dis that person. :angry:

Well certainly it wasn't my intent for that comment to offend the person who choses to shop at the likes of WalMart for price purposes. It was actually a variation on something I've said before, that life's too short to buy one's panties out of packages. But then again, if anyone is paying at least a little bit of attention, they can find wonderful bargains at places such as TJ Maxx where I've actually tripped into some very pricey undies on clearance for as little as a dollar each. I bet three of those is less than that three-pack at WalMart.

When all is said and done, this whole underdressing thing is a big "who cares". None of the above defines what is in our hearts. If the fully transitioned woman spent her pre-transition years underdressing because it helped her cope, because she liked it for whatever reason, then terrific. If the fully transitioned woman avoided women's clothing like the plague because it reminded her of her gender angst, then terrific as well. We are all different and contrary to what some might have us believe, there is no blueprint for this thing of ours.

Badtranny

09-23-2012, 11:39 PM

We are all different and contrary to what some might have us believe, there is no blueprint for this thing of ours.

Yep. We're all traveling in the same direction but each of us walks alone.

Inna

09-24-2012, 12:27 AM

Underdress? you mean like wearing skimpy clothes so that every time you are out, guys approach you and ask for a hotdog?

in all honesty though I simply think that the Title of this OP is where the friction arises from. For many transexual woman, connotations of dressing anything to achieve sensation of sexual nature, such as one usually associated with under dressing while still seeing world through Testosterone eyes, is a recollection of period in their life which felt wrong, out of context and source of confusion as to true self of being a woman. Many have never experienced such and just a thought of attaching sexual hype to act of wearing woman's underwear feels wrong to them. Nothing wrong with the act, just someones take on something foreign and unlikely for them.

ReineD

09-24-2012, 01:55 AM

On the topic of whether a TS is "TS" enough if she loves fashion and jewelry or lacy underwear (which might appear to some as if it's all about the clothes or fetish and not the inner woman), I'd like to point out that among GGs, personal tastes (and degree of vanity :p) vary greatly.

Maybe body type has something to do with this. I have a friend who is 5' 2", squarish build, incredibly short waisted, is about 50 lbs over weight, and it is *hell* for her to shop for just about anything. So she doesn't. Other women who are blessed with leaner, longer bodies could care less about fashion either ... they have their lives, kids, husbands, work, friends, they're not social butterflies, and this is enough for them. While other women are coquettes and dearly love fashion and jewelry, although this does seem to abate as a woman ages. Maybe it also has to do with how secure someone feels within themselves. There are some women who source their identities from how they perceive others see them, with others place more stock into their accomplishments. It also has to do with whether someone is single or not. Women who are looking for partners will generally put more effort into their appearance.

There is a wide variety of personalities, and anyone's motives for preferring or needing certain things in their lives that others don't need is too complex to even try to analyze.

Kaitlyn Michele

09-24-2012, 08:07 AM

Not crossdressing is very common among transsexuals

Sexuality is totally disconnected to whether you are transsexual

You don't have to "know" you were female since you were five years old to be transsexual

It is possible for transsexuals to repress themselves so much that they go long periods of time without thinking about it.

Transsexuals often have sexual fantasy thoughts about themselves as women or expressing themselves as women

Your physicality or your ability to blend in or "pass" as female has absoluteley nothing to do with whether you are transsexual..

Transsexuals can have penises

Although my opinion is that the best way to deal with being transsexual is to admit it, accept it, embrace it, and then plot a course for transition, this is not always possible, and ts women should use any means neccessary (including underdressing) to mitigate the very difficult situation of living a man's life when you are in fact a woman.

The COGIATI test is the best way to figure out if you are transsexual...

Can you identify which statement does not belong???

Rianna Humble

09-24-2012, 08:13 AM

Underdress? you mean like wearing skimpy clothes so that every time you are out, guys approach you and ask for a hotdog?

You really should put a smiley to indicate that you are being either ironic or provocative, Inna.

The term is well enough used on these forums to indicate wearing something of the opposite gender under gender-conforming outer clothing that it should not provoke any misunderstanding.

I'm fairly confident that the other replies all understood that the OP was asking whether any of the TS on these forums found wearing female garment under male outer clothing (for MtF) or male garments under female outer clothing (for FtM) had provided any tangible relief from the feelings provoked by their Gender Identity Disorder.

Can you identify which statement does not belong???
No :tongueout

Marleena

09-24-2012, 09:09 AM

I went back and added a disclaimer to my earlier post just to play it safe.:)

LeaP

09-24-2012, 09:14 AM

Self-identified (trans) feminine people have self-identified (trans) feminine beings that can be expressed by the clothes they wear. If you are too busy being yourself to find time to express your being in any manner then clothing choices will never get made.

If your clothes remind you of "what is not" instead of "what is" then you should get some help to dress yourself.

In response, I think I'll clarify my original comment.

Perhaps I was trying to be too clever twisting the common phrase "it's not about the clothes" to "it's not about the expression (clothes)." What I really meant is that clothing can turn out to be unhelpful when the basic issue is being male bodied. Covering it with female clothing, when the underlying bits are not female, provides only a superficial illusion for some of us. And, it can indeed be irritating in the way that I stated. This has precisely nothing to do with my ability to dress well or properly.

Expression itself is important, But I am finding that on HRT how I feel is much more important than external expression, at least of that type. What is important to me are subtle body changes, emotional change, hair restoration, carriage, weight loss, and other such "expressions" for now. I think about clothing now and again, but it barely makes the list.

elizabethamy

09-24-2012, 09:51 AM

A good distinction between external and internal expression, Lea. Underdressing -- for those who aren't or haven't transitioned -- is internal expression. It connects with the self in some kind of mysterious unconscious way and is, for me, very beneficial in calming the GID thunderstorms inside the head. That's why, and only why. And I would wager that once one starts transitioning, taking hormones, going full time RLE, etc, underdressing becomes inherently pointless. So it's a question of where you are on the gender spectrum but also where you are in the process, if indeed you are having a process.

elizabethamy

Inna

09-24-2012, 12:39 PM

Great analogies LEA and ELIZABETH, in fact as I think of the subject further since most non or per-transitioners still retain male bodies and all the shaving and creams will not make their bodies any more feminine then they already are. They result to underdressing for a solution, to at least feel when covered up with bits of female exclusives that they have done best they can at the moment to regain some visible mark of femaleness within their bodies visual characteristic. Same sort of goes with clothing!

As I recall, the moment I realized undoubtedly that I am in fact a Transsexual Woman, crossdressing lost its luster as my focus shifted towards my body, I so wanted, needed to look upon my body as that of a female, clothing no longer fulfilled that need.
And such really is a best description of Gender Dysphoria, misalignment between body and mind!

Pink Person

09-25-2012, 08:39 PM

Inna

09-25-2012, 10:05 PM

Hey Pink, I do agree that clothing has evolved during centuries to be gender specific, in fact lately we sort of digress a bit with difference in minor details at times. Take for instance jeans Tshirts, flats, etc. jeans are cut differently because the body is different, not by much, No! Males do not have three legs......well I suppose you could argue this point, lol, but in general jeans are jeans. T shirts accommodate for larger breasts and thinner torsos for girls.

The fact is humans have a need for expression, for woman that need is to emphasize feminine character, for guys, well guy character. Hence crossdressers go more for skirts and dresses, pantyhose and stockings, exclusives only to female attire at the same time these clothing choices in their minds are what defies sexiness in woman. TS do not strive for such all the time, because they feel comfortable expressing their female through being female, having female body. not to say that TS do not dress attractive when occasion calls for it, yes absolutely, but such is an act of expression of wearing attractive attire and not a sexual objectification.

Sara Jessica

09-25-2012, 10:31 PM

All I can say now is that condescention can take on so many flavours, I'll just retreat into my trepidation.

Badtranny

09-25-2012, 10:37 PM

I'll let the deflecting and denying by some of you resume now.

You know Pink, I don't think I've ever really disagreed with any of your positions before but on this one you clearly don't know what you're talking about. I take this one a little bit personally because I've tried very hard to ensure that every thing I post here is the absolute truth. I'm on record stating that I don't believe most of what I read here so it is very important to me to make sure that I never write about anything unless I'm prepared to be 100% honest about it. There are people on this board that know me well enough to call BS on almost everything. They know where I live, they know where I work and some of them have even met my mom. Everything I say here is verifiable, so when I say I never cross-dressed (until I found this site) I expect to be taken at face value. Further, when I say I don't get a thrill from women's clothes outside of just being cute than I don't expect to have my integrity questioned. Why would I lie about that when I've been so embarrassingly honest about so many things.

So why do I wear women's clothes? The number one reason is because I want to be seen as and treated as a woman. The ONLY reason I transitioned is because I was tired of acting like a guy and being treated like a guy. I did NOT transition for the wardrobe I promise you. A few girls here have seen me in casual mode and I pretty much wear jeans and tshirts every weekend, and sometimes even a baseball cap. At work, I wear black slacks every single day and a blazer over a feminine top. I have not shaved my legs in at least a month because I haven't worn a dress or skirt in at least that long. I do not enjoy shaving my legs. Wearing men's clothes would NOT bother me except that I would LOOK too much like a man for my comfort. I am fairly fem looking for an early transitioner but I still have enough masculine cues that dressing like a dude would tend to scream dude at this point, maybe forever.

You are making the same mistake in logic that pretty much anyone who isn't transitioning would make. That a TS is just an extreme CD and that is simply not true. I was never compelled to wear women's clothes and I can tell you for sure that I didn't and don't do it for physical pleasure. I do it now because I have transitioned. My name has changed. I intend to appear to the world as a woman so I need to dress the part. Is it fun? Absolutely. I love wearing cute outfits and coordinating jewelry and I especially love flashing my hard earned belly and cleavage within the context of the right outfit. The trouble with your next thought is; I also enjoyed dressing up as a man. I loved wearing sharp blazers and ties. I wore a blazer and button down shirt to the office almost everyday and our office is decidedly more casual than that. I liked a snazzy pair of shoes, and I always had snappy socks that would match the tie or the shirt in some way.

Some TS women cross-dressed for years but the very nature of being TS means that they did it for different reasons than a CD. TS MtF people don't enjoy being men. I may have enjoyed "dressing" like a man, but I didn't enjoy BEING a man. I tried as hard as anyone could but it wasn't in my nature. Never once did I wish I was a girl so I could "wear whatever I want". Throughout my life, clothes were never an issue. My issue was with my body. My issue was with how everybody treated me. My issue was with how I was expected to act or react. My issue was with how women perceived me. I can't speak for my brain, but my heart was feminine and my life was slowly breaking my heart until I finally had to stop the world and get off.

Coming to grips with who I was and finally accepting my path was extremely difficult and tearfully agonizing at times but the one thing that was never an issue was my clothes. I did cross dress for a year before I finally gave up and transitioned and yes it was mostly a lot of fun. It was also very painful on a few occasions and had I not transitioned, I can tell you for sure that I would not be cross-dressing today. It was just too hard.

Bree-asaurus

09-25-2012, 11:23 PM

I too shall try to restate some of my opinions on a low simmer.

I look forward to the day when TS and TG people start rating their brains as more important body parts than their genitals. Respect your feminine brain even if you have a penis. Don't let your penis overrule the rest of your body.

Of course being TS is different than being otherwise TG. TS people are different and special. I frequently think they are the bravest and most honest of all TG people, although I know it isn't always true.

However, (here comes the hammer) any feminine and/or female TS or TG person who tells me she is indifferent between wearing men's clothing or women's clothing is full of rank BS. The issue isn't whether you are a high fashion or low fashion person. The question is whether you have a positive personal bias for one gender style or the other.

I know. I know. Some of you are only performing a public service when you put on clothes. You don't want to promote gender confusion when people look at you. Others are only avoiding the fashion that doesn't fit their dicks. Dressing themselves is not personal to them in any meaningful way, except when it comes to wearing their meat suit.

What a crock. If you told a TS woman she had to dress like a man exclusively for the rest of her life, she would jump off a bridge.

I'll let the deflecting and denying by some of you resume now.

The problem with blanket statements is that there are usually exceptions that doesn't follow the rule. <--- notice how THAT wasn't even a blanket statement :P

Anyway, I find it hard to believe that Melissa would lie about never crossdressing and frankly, I have no reason to think she would. I have a TS friend that never crossdressed either... until a couple of us took her shopping. She never had a desire to wear woman's cloths. Cloths to her never mattered in the slightest and the only reason she will ever wear women's cloths is simply because she will be living as a woman.

I'm not defending myself here... I crossdressed throughout most of my life... way back to when I was a toddler and could fit my tiny feet in my mom's giant shoes. But what is so hard to believe when a TS person said they never crossdressed?

Some TS women cross-dressed for years but the very nature of being TS means that they did it for different reasons than a CD. TS MtF people don't enjoy being men. I may have enjoyed "dressing" like a man, but I didn't enjoy BEING a man.

Thank you for saying this! I never really identified as a man, but I did play the role as best I could. One thing I eventually became darn good at (although it took me 20 years to figure out) is how to look d*** fine in men's cloths (I made a sexy gay man). I think I enjoyed putting together the outfits and then showing off my sense of style. I do the same thing now, but my boyfriend is the mannequin instead of me :P

Marleena

09-26-2012, 08:36 AM

Nobody should be ashamed of whether they crossdressed/underdressed or not before starting transitioning, I really find it a moot point. Everybody was on a path of self discovery and trying to find coping mechanisms in the process. What I can say is that since I've been on HRT I no longer feel the need to dress as I once did. HRT helps me feel "right". My mind is finally at ease. That said I'm now learning to dress the part properly so as to blend within my proper gender. So clothes are still important for me in that respect and I'm working on the physical aspects as well. I'm a work in progress..

JMO as always..

Raquel June

09-26-2012, 07:49 PM

However, (here comes the hammer) any feminine and/or female TS or TG person who tells me she is indifferent between wearing men's clothing or women's clothing is full of rank BS. The issue isn't whether you are a high fashion or low fashion person. The question is whether you have a positive personal bias for one gender style or the other.

Wearing men's clothes would NOT bother me except that I would LOOK too much like a man for my comfort. I am fairly fem looking for an early transitioner but I still have enough masculine cues that dressing like a dude would tend to scream dude at this point, maybe forever.

You are making the same mistake in logic that pretty much anyone who isn't transitioning would make. That a TS is just an extreme CD and that is simply not true. I was never compelled to wear women's clothes and I can tell you for sure that I didn't and don't do it for physical pleasure. I do it now because I have transitioned.

Would you even call it an argument at this point? It looks like you've both reduced your point to something that nobody can disagree with.

CDs tend to have things in common. TSes tend to have things in common. But we all have a bit of a personal twist on things.

I gotta say that Pink is pretty far from the average CD. Not a lot of silly frilly pink fog going on there. Not a lot of complaints about the wife not understanding. And Melissa isn't exactly the average TS. In my observation, at least a little more than 50% of TS girls tried pretty hard to do the straight guy thing for their whole lives (however successful they may or may not have been), and many thought of themselves as CDs for awhile.

I never got anything out of underdressing. I always felt like a pervert for any kind of crossdressing. Because my inner feelings weren't about getting any kind of sexual thrill out of expressing my femininity.

I certainly have a bias towards being feminine. I love getting my nails done. I love sparkley things. I love makeup. But I'm a little conflicted on wearing panties. It doesn't seem quite right given that they're made for someone with different junk than I have. But I've got issues. When I went to clubs all the time, I often found myself trying too hard to distance myself from CDs and point out that I wasn't being kinky. When I transitioned it took me awhile to realize that people were mostly OK with me and that I had the right to exist and that I wasn't making a mockery of women.

I think some CDs basically mock femininity by going overboard with it. Seeing someone in the pink fog can be nauseating at times. They can be absurd. But some CDs are totally classy and respectable -- which sometimes confuses me, because I thought the point in being a CD was to take a break from being a guy and get a little silly with it. But some CDs are totally low-key with it. Some drag queens make a show of mocking women. Some are pretty classy people who are great performers. And a lot of TS women are a mess. Maybe it's because they have issues. Maybe it's because they can only afford to shop at thrift stores. But sometimes it's because they just don't care. And there are plenty GGs who just don't care. And that kind sucks. Because I have a lot of respect for what it is to be a woman, and I often feel I'm not worthy, so maybe it's me who isn't right mentally, but it pisses me off to see people who just don't care.

Maybe it's completely wrong to resent a woman for being sloppy and wearing dirty sweatpants in public and just not caring about anything. Because that's pretty close to resenting a F2M guy for not appreciating being born female, and we all know that's a really stupid way to feel.

This all gets confusing for me if I think about it too hard. But to get back to my point (if I had one), if I was given two choices:

1) You can have the most awesome wardrobe in the world. People will accept however you dress and never make you feel bad, but they'll call you "him."

2) People will accept you as 100% female, and will always call you "her." Nobody will question that you are a woman. But you have to dress like a guy.

Well, I'd have to choose the 2nd option. But it would kinda break my heart if I could never get a mani/pedi, never spend 30 min. doing my eyeshadow, never get crazy highlights again, and never put on a shiny top and some big earrings and go out with my friends. Because that's awesome. But it would be more awesome to grow old and be comfortable with yourself and be respected as a woman.

Come on, Melissa... I know you'd choose the 2nd option, too, but it would hurt just a little to have to give up everything girly, wouldn't it?

LeaP

09-26-2012, 08:17 PM

...
2) People will accept you as 100% female, and will always call you "her." Nobody will question that you are a woman. But you have to dress like a guy. ...

Let me translate: You have to be Hilary Clinton. :eek:

Raquel June

09-26-2012, 08:21 PM

Let me translate: You have to be Hilary Clinton. :eek:

But with a cheery demeanor! So that's not so bad. Rich, powerful and cheery!

Badtranny

09-26-2012, 08:57 PM

Come on, Melissa... I know you'd choose the 2nd option, too, but it would hurt just a little to have to give up everything girly, wouldn't it?

One look at my bedroom would answer that question. I am sooooooo stereotypically girly on so many things but I think it's important for me to make the point that even though I like fashion and pretty things, it did not influence my decision to transition. The clothes are a fun bonus, but the transition was driven by a desire to be honest with the world about who I am. I tried being a femmy gay guy, I tried being a cross dresser, I tried being a rough dude, and none of it felt honest or natural. The girl you see today is the girl I thought I would never see. I don't get anymore joy from getting dressed now than I did as a dude. Dressing up was fun both ways, the difference is now I get to express how I actually feel and THAT is what makes the clothes special.

Nobody transitions for the panties.

Bree-asaurus

09-26-2012, 09:40 PM

One look at my bedroom would answer that question. I am sooooooo stereotypically girly on so many things but I think it's important for me to make the point that even though I like fashion and pretty things, it did not influence my decision to transition. The clothes are a fun bonus, but the transition was driven by a desire to be honest with the world about who I am. I tried being a femmy gay guy, I tried being a cross dresser, I tried being a rough dude, and none of it felt honest or natural. The girl you see today is the girl I thought I would never see. I don't get anymore joy from getting dressed now than I did as a dude. Dressing up was fun both ways, the difference is now I get to express how I actually feel and THAT is what makes the clothes special.

Nobody transitions for the panties.

I'm very much a tomboy, but other than that... I could have written that post!

Tried being this. Tried being that. I just have to be myself.

Raquel June

09-26-2012, 09:49 PM

... I tried being a rough dude ...

Got any evidence of that phase? Because the guy pretending to flex standing in front of the dirt bike was clearly a big sweetie. Looked like the kinda guy who had a substantial plush animal collection and called his mom twice a week.

Bree-asaurus

09-26-2012, 09:50 PM

Got any evidence of that phase? Because the guy pretending to flex standing in front of the dirt bike was clearly a big sweetie. Looked like the kinda guy who had a substantial plush animal collection and called his mom twice a week.

Dangit... I totally screwed the 'tough guy' thing too...

Raquel June

09-26-2012, 09:59 PM

I totally screwed the 'tough guy'

Come again? :straightface:

Bree-asaurus

09-26-2012, 10:04 PM

Come again? :straightface:

No you perv. The guys I screwed were too gay to be tough guys :P

Except for my current guy... he's pretty straight lol

Raquel June

09-26-2012, 10:20 PM

You're never too gay to be a tough guy. Ask Freddie Mercury.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/278382/

Or Ace and Gary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ambiguously_Gay_Duo

Or these guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-xFidwDbHI

I could link to some tough guy videos on RedTube, but you get the point.

Bree-asaurus

09-26-2012, 10:37 PM

Raquel June

09-26-2012, 11:05 PM

I don't like tough guys. I like guys who know how to deal with that they're dealt without overcompensating :)

Well, overcompensating by definition is trying to cover up weakness. Confident/classy folks are the sexy ones.

I guess the stereotypical tough guy isn't actually very tough. Except for Freddie. He's badass no matter how you look at it.

Bree-asaurus

09-26-2012, 11:14 PM

Well, overcompensating by definition is trying to cover up weakness. Confident/classy folks are the sexy ones.

I guess the stereotypical tough guy isn't actually very tough. Except for Freddie. He's badass no matter how you look at it.

Tough guys, in my opinion, always have something to prove. Something to prove means they are compensating for a weakness they are ashamed of.

This is so wayyyyy of topic... lol.

Badtranny

09-26-2012, 11:52 PM

Got any evidence of that phase? Because the guy pretending to flex standing in front of the dirt bike was clearly a big sweetie.

I was also a bit speedy!

I didn't mean rough like a tough guy cuz I wasn't near mean enough for that. I meant rough like no regard for my own physical safety. Moto was pretty cool cuz I loved it AND even the tough guys respected me for once.

Bree-asaurus

09-26-2012, 11:59 PM

I meant rough like no regard for my own physical safety. Moto was pretty cool cuz I loved it AND even the tough guys respected me for once.

I wish I still had a Ducati. I was a bit reckless on the highway... was pretty stupid sometimes.

kellycan27

09-27-2012, 01:44 AM

I still have my Harley and my dirk bike.... but I ride side saddle now, and carry a parasol.

Kaitlyn Michele

09-27-2012, 05:51 AM

My house looks like 3 frat guys live in it..

I have a coffee cup with a picture of a "50's era housewife" that says..."a clean house is a sign of a wasted life"

Motorcycles scare me

Aprilrain

09-27-2012, 07:24 AM

My house looks like three teenage girls live in it, I sold the Harley to pay for my pretty face and my parasol blew away in the wind..............I got nothin:straightface:

Anna Lorree

09-27-2012, 09:53 AM

Well since we are all proving our stupid "manly" behaviors, here is one of mine.

elizabethamy

09-27-2012, 11:04 AM

I sold the Harley to pay for my pretty face and my parasol blew away in the wind.

You got a really good deal on that Harley, April!

LeaP

09-27-2012, 11:17 AM

Well since we are all proving our stupid "manly" behaviors, here is one of mine.

I tried that one - both my grandfather and great grandfather were firefighters. Put in for it, but my wife shot it down.

On the other hand we both ride HDs.

Anna Lorree

09-27-2012, 12:25 PM

I tried that one - both my grandfather and great grandfather were firefighters. Put in for it, but my wife shot it down.

On the other hand we both ride HDs.

I started as a volunteer, then went paid. It has been a good career and has provided for my family very nicely, but I know now that it was compensation for me. I'm to the point that I want out, so I am back in school. I wish I could just quit doing it, but there are bills to pay.

Anna

Pink Person

10-02-2012, 10:00 PM

Sigh…Double sigh. I don't have the energy to respond to everything that I read on this site that annoys me. If I did then my post count would be approaching a much larger number.

In short, as indicated previously, I don't believe that crossdressing is ever just about the clothes…or sex…or pretending…or feeling a tiny naughty tingle. NEVER. NEVER EVER. People who crossdress have similar, not the same, core issues that TS people have. The matrix of gender variation is shaded from top to bottom with some common causes. The preposterous posturing by every subgroup to deny even a remote relationship to any other subgroup is depressingly stupid, in my opinion.

I would say to any TS or TG person that it doesn't matter when you started dressing to fit your self-identified gender. Just do it, have fun with it, there's nothing wrong with it, no matter what anyone else tells you.

Angela Campbell

10-03-2012, 06:47 AM

Other than wearing panties, I guess underdressing does little for me. I feel like it is halfway...like getting a salad and only eating the dressing. Not sure why I always wear the panties though it doesn't make me feel different in fact once dressed I don't even think about it. Then again when dressed completely as a woman I really do not think about the bra I am wearing, I really do not notice it much.For me it is the complete package or nothing as far as clothes go. In my mind I am a woman at all times even though I look like a ...yuchhh ...man. When around family I really have to work at my posture and mannerisms so I don't raise too many eyebrows. I have never been very macho or anything but sometimes when alone I look at myself and the way I am sitting and notice it is very girly, and remind myself to be careful if my family is around.It is kind of funny looking back for years I have been told by GGs many times how nice my eyebrows or eyelashes looked (no makeup) They never knew how good that made me feel.

Kaitlyn Michele

10-03-2012, 07:03 AM

Thanks Ladies! You are terrific!

I was purposefully vague in my OP because I didn’t want this to be a “here is what I think, do you agree with me” thread. I really appreciate your honest input and I’ll tell you where I’m coming from.

First, my problem solving technique is to research the crap out of the problem I am trying to resolve. I have read a bushel of books on transgender including a number of memoirs of women who have transitioned. I have read a lot of threads online and talked to a number of women who have experienced some degree of GID. There seems to be a common theme that the vast majority of women who identify as transsexual have dressed as women sometime during their lives and by crossdressING (the act, not the identity) they have gotten some relief from their GID. For some, the relief was momentary and they felt even more miserable afterwards. Others were able to continue in a male/female situation for years. None had mentioned underdressing.

I look at my own situation being on the “middle path” or “bigendered.” I am still “uncomfortably masculine” more often than I would like to be. (I get that some of you don’t get this – it is what it is.) I’ve tried a few things, touchstones so to speak, that carry me over the times that I have to be in drab. I dress a little more androgynously and wear some light makeup. That helps a little. What did absolutely nothing for me was underdressing and I don’t get it. It would seem that the small doses of femininity that carry me through the dry times would logically include underdressing but it provided no relief whatsoever. Thinking about it, and totally pulling this out of thin air, I wonder if the fact that it is concealed makes it seem like a step back into the closet to me? I don’t know. Maybe just my crazy variant on this trans crap and nothing more!

Anyway, thanks again for your input.
Debby

Who knows whether its your gender that is fluid, or your "awareness" of your gender that is fluid.

Since this is an identity "disorder", its a heated debate.. transsexuals have to fight for their identity, and i admit i see posts where its pretty obvious to me (altho i could be wrong) that the person is kind of just wanting to say they are transsexual...in my mind, i'm not just thinking "no, you are not", i'm thinking "how dare you!...do you know what we go through?!?!?!"... that's just how it feels... pls don't freak out, i realize that i can't possibly know what's going in a persons mind, i realize that i have no right to tell another person they are or aren't anything...i realize i shouldn't even care!! i'm just sharing how it feels, and i think my thought process illustrates why sometimes things here get out of hand..

specifically to your point Debby, your experience is very consistent with transsexual people that are slowly "realizing" that their dressing behaviour (i like how you put it.."ING") is about much more than dressing, and just to refer to my first sentence, the issue for you is deciding what exactly that means..and whether thinking of yourself as bi-gendered is about what is basically your male identity wanting to share himself with a female side (or identity), or is it the conflict between your conscious thoughts about what is obvious (you were born as a male!!) and the conflict with what you also know (...but i am female!!!).. only you can answer that question!! and unfortunately its a brutal question, fraught with noise that makes it harder to answer

as best i can tell from here, it seems like you are being smart and gathering information without being emotional about it...and this means the good news is that over time, like many answers to tough questions, the answer will simply "become apparent"

Badtranny

10-03-2012, 08:08 AM

...do you know what we go through?!?!?!"...

Yep, everybody is so certain that THEIR situation is so much different. They live in the most conservative place, they have the most redneck family, they have the most masculine job, we just don't understand. It was easy for us, but it's so much more difficult for them.

It's not easy for ANY of us to do, but it's SUPER easy to talk about. Or to wear secret panties on "man" days.

elizabethamy

10-03-2012, 08:47 AM

..do you know what we go through?!?!?!"...

The "who has it tougher" game could wear out anyone! Last weekend I was nearly out of my mind suffering over whether/how much/what will I do about it/ levels of TS-ness, and feeling mighty sorry for myself as I considered the limited range of sucky options. Then I met a couple who had BOTH had to quit their full time jobs and their very promising, brilliant careers, so that each could work part time to pay the bills and work more than full time taking care of their very sweet, but very disabled autistic child. So...there's sacrifice and suffering in all kinds of ways...and this sad young couple, bravely carrying on, has it better than millions who are starving. A little perspective goes a long way. What do you think of this color of nail polish? Too pink?

elizabethamy

LeaP

10-03-2012, 10:42 AM

People who crossdress have similar, not the same, core issues that TS people have. The matrix of gender variation is shaded from top to bottom with some common causes. The preposterous posturing by every subgroup to deny even a remote relationship to any other subgroup is depressingly stupid, in my opinion.

I don't so much disagree with you as I question the value of the similarities. Some of the categories of similarities appear to be deep waters (e.g., the psychological struggle to find your identity), but once you get past the surface the similarities actually turn out to be fairly superficial because so many of the real-world implications are radically different.

Interestingly, the tables are turned with some implications. Consider relationship issues. Both CDs and TSs have them. The real-world implications are often identical (e.g., divorce). But the rationale is not (SRS and lesbian relationships vs. spousal perceptions of behavior in the CD case). So, different pattern ... still not much common cause.

One might plead the real differences off by abstracting up, e.g., "but it's all about an additional, competing woman in the relationship" (or some such). To which I say BS.

So what you get instead is the political plea - hang together or hang separately. Numbers matter. And even coalition politics turns out to be a problem for TSs, who get the short end of the stick - every time.