On Misandry - A Rant

[max]

One issue that has really gotten stuck in my craw lately is the rampant misandry on these boards, particularly from some of the GG members.

This place is supposed to be a support forum.

Perhaps there may be others like me who are finding it difficult trying to walk the middle line between their male and female personality traits.

Then I read all these posts putting down men, blatantly stereotyping the entire gender in ways that would cause a riot if they were done to the female gender here, as well as all sorts of attacks on male sexuality.

This doesn't even touch on the attacks on the different types of sexual and romantic relationships (especially those of different duration) aside from super long term partners sex-only-in-the-missionary-position-twice-a-year deal.

Then there is the whole GG's think *this* therefore it must be right theme.

Then there are the members who seem to think disparaging remarks about men and masculinity are a reaffirmation of their femininity? I've managed to place a few of the worst offenders on ignore but new ones keep coming along sprinkling their posts with this sort of ideology.

Why all the misandry?

[Eryn]

Before everyone goes to dictionary.com like I had to do, "Misandry" means "hatred or dislike of men or boys."

Frankly, I don't see it. In any group of people you will find various opinions expressed, and some of those opinions might be critical of males or male behavior but I do not perceive any "rampant" expression of dislike toward males.

[Lorileah]

I guess I skipped those threads. I have seen the typical "jokes" about men. But I didn't see anything that slapped men down. I would hope that if it was as blatant as you think it was the mods would have deleted it. It is no different than "dissing" the GG's here. I think quite the opposite is here. The love of the men make the women here likely to support and/or want the masculine traits. Maybe you could direct me to a specific post? Often in print things that are said are misinterpreted. PM the thread location if you like. But I don't see any misandry or misogyny here

[Kate Simmons]

Beats me Hon, must be a lot of Amazon blood floating around here.:battingeyelashes: Basically most of the negative remarks I see from women involve their SO feeling the need to lie to them or conceal something related to CDing or other things in their relationship. The premise being that a true equal partnership is based on trust.:)

[max]

Maybe you could direct me to a specific post?

Here is one example:


I see it everyday on TV, being clubbed into my head against my will. The “Are you half the man you used to be?” commercial comes on every ten minutes, I swear, neatly placed between the ads for male impotency products. Males are presented as virile so-called “individuals” who “know who they ARE.” Funny. I know who I am, but I’m not going to erect a monument to that effect. Every time I see this male-oriented propaganda, I wonder how the poor females are doing

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?177765-An-open-letter-to-society

Here Frederique manages to turn an advertisement preying on one of man's largest insecurities into some sort of monument to masculinity? An advertisement preying on men and he is concerned about how the "poor women" are impacted by this?

[Roberta Lynn]

I have to agree with the others Max. I've been a member of this forum for quite a while and I don't see misandry.
At least you've added a new word to my vocabulary. I just don't believe it's relevant to this forum.

[NathalieX66]

One issue that has really gotten stuck in my craw lately is the rampant misandry on these boards, particularly from some of the GG members.

I must've missed those threads.


There's no shortage of intolerant/ unaccepting spouses, and we talk about it all the time.....but misandry? Oh, come on. :straightface:

[AllieSF]

Max, I will let Frederique clarify her statement, but knowing how she writes and what she believes, I think you picked a very bad example. That being said, I have been here long enough to have read some of what you are referring to, albeit in a small quantities over the 5+ years I have been here, reading most new posts everyday. When I have read clear male bashing by someone, I occasionally would call their bluff and ask them to join the real world where most of us live. And, that being said, I recommend that you get used to reading things that push your hot buttons, try to ignore them if possible, and if not possible do your best to diplomatically refute their words with better ones from you. I know it is not easy, but free speech within the governing rules works pretty good on this site.

[Allisa]

I'm sorry max but I think you may have taken that text out of content.I hope you read the whole thread.I do not remember seeing any male bashing on any threads by any one be it male or female,there has been questioning of masculinity,but in reference to CDing,not the gender itself.
bye-bye Lisa

[sterling12]

Misandry, not to be confused with Misogyny (it's opposite,) nor to be confused with Miscegenation (something entirely different, and no longer outlawed.)

I think your going to have to do better with your example than something Freddie wrote, and you do understand that Freddie isn't A GG. Misandry and Misogyny are normally associated with an absolute hatred of the OPPOSITE sex. A hatred that usually leads to violence! I thought you would site us some real "Male Bashing- let's kill them all" types of things.

Although it is true that Men often get "short shrift" in a lot of media betrayals these days, and it is counter-productive; it's still nowhere near what people would characterize as Misandry. Simple solution is: "If you don't like what they wrote....debate them!" Remember, you have to play nicely, no personal attacks, and you will have to make cogent arguments, but others will listen, and if so inclined, they will agree with you. We have had incidents around here of "women knocking," usually about some perceived idea that genetic women aren't as "feminine" as some of our members would like them to be, and I've seen a lot of "I agree," and "me too" comments piled onto such thoughts. But, you will do all this at your own risk...expect "push back!"

So, as Rodney King once famously said: "Can't we all just get along?"

Peace and Love, Joanie

[max]

Frederique's post is not the best example, just the most immediate one I could come up with. This is not something I just decided today, it is borne of a long string of posts and expressed ideologies. It wouldn't be easy to try to dig up all the particular posts. The fact that many of you who I'm sure have heard of misogyny didn't know the word misandry seems to suggest a problem.

[Karren H]

who ever mentioned support? want that ... go get a good bra!..... but you get out of it what ever you want.... at worst this is good entertainment....

[RADER]

Well everybody is entitled to their opinion. But I just do not see what you are talking about on
a routine schedule. Yes; some GG's here hate their "Man" wearing a dress, and they have the rite to
complain, however, Their are few and hopefully far between.
Just relax, and as Karren said, get a new bra.
Rader

[Roberta Lynn]

The fact that many of you who I'm sure have heard of misogyny didn't know the word misandry seems to suggest a problem.

The only problem with not knowing the word misandry is that of having a limited vocabulary. Thanks to Eryn posting a definition and my computers dictionary's definition 'the hatred of men by women' I know what it means.
You can call it what you want, misandry, guy bashing, man hatred I just don't see it as a problem here.

[Melissa Rose]

The fact that many of you who I'm sure have heard of misogyny didn't know the word misandry seems to suggest a problem.

Not knowing the formal word does not blind someone from noticing the behavior or attitude, or realizing it is a problem.

Rampant misandry? Sure, there are a few scattered comments, but rampant dislike or hatred of men? I have not read or noticed anything even close to rampant. If you think the world (or this forum) is misandrous then everything will be interpreted that way. Usually, you find what you look for if you only look at everything through the same narrow bandwidth filter.

[whowhatwhen]

Then there is the whole GG's think *this* therefore it must be right theme.


In all fairness, we've grown up with male privilege and as such there are some things we simply won't see that are incredibly offensive to women who've grown up fighting against it.
All in all I respect the GGs here, they know their stuff and since they have more experience being women I'll take their word on more things.

As for hatred of masculinity?
I've seen some posts criticizing it, especially since there are more than a few of us who had to emulate it and had were not happy about it.

[BLUE ORCHID]

The great thing about the internet is that if you are not happy with a web site
there are many many more web sites that you can go to.

[sandra-leigh]

Of course there is misandry on here. Every time one of us says "I do not wish to be male", that is the ultimate misandric statement, as it stereotypes all possible maleness as being undesirable to that speaker. Just as my mother asks, "Can't you stay male and still explore your gender?", if the answer is "NO" (as my answer is), then that is misandry. Because if there were a version of andry, no matter how rare, that was acceptable to us, we'd go there if we weren't misandric, right?

There are those (like me) who transition who because they can no longer be "male"; we are all, by definition, misandric, no less so than the racism inherent in those who say, "Mexicans are alright, but I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one." When I say, "Males are alright, but I wouldn't want to be one", then I am misandric no matter what else I might say.

That I have good personal reasons for feeling as I do is not relevant to the matter. "Misandry" does not have to be misplaced or irrational or strong: if one has any hatred or any dislike of men or boys, for any reason, then the term "misandric" applies. I suspect there is barely a person here who is entirely free of it.

[max]

If you participate in his fantasies, he won't cheat or lie like many men do. Let's face it, most men are jerks.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?177775-New-and-confused-GG

I don't really want to keep quoting people on this stuff, but then again people say there isn't a problem... Idk

[Lorileah]

:facepalm: those are what you consider misandry? really? Being scared and looking for answers is an insult to you?

I think you are taking things way too serious and way wrong ( I was going to say literally but you don't even do that...)you are reading things that I guess the rest of us don't see. :idontknow:

The majority of the GGs come here to try and understand. They may be hurt and yes they may be angry but I still don't see it as being anti-male.

[UNDERDRESSER]

max, i think you are stretching, both cases you quote are from men, about other men.

And by your own admission, you had to spend some time hunting for them. I'm not sure if you have some issues of your own that are clouding your judgment , or you're just trolling.

[sandra-leigh]

On cheating:

http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/cheating-and-infidelity/stats-about-infidelity.html


It is estimated that roughly 30 to 60% of all married individuals (in the United States) will engage in infidelity at some point during their marriage (see, Buss and Shackelford for review of this research). And these numbers are probably on the conservative side, when you consider that close to half of all marriages end in divorce (people are more likely to stray as relationships fall apart

I would say that 30 to 60% is enough to qualify as "many men" in the context "cheat or lie like many men do". And that's just cheating, without stats about lying. There are a lot of GM here who delayed telling their SO (in my assessment from reading postings, those here who told from the beginning are in the small minority.) It would thus seem well justified to say "cheat or lie like many men do". Unless, that is, your meaning of "many" is quite different than mine.

On men being jerks: most humans make inopportune choices a fair bit of the time. Most people are, in other works, jerks, at least part-time. Acknowledging a truth is not an expression of hate.

[Kaz]

Hi Max,

I am afraid that you need to learn about taking people's words out of context and using them to pursue your own agenda. No probs if that is your direction, but you are currently not very good at it. Freddie is high profile here and not a GG, and the other quote is out of context...

The only misandry I see here (and I am here most days) is that which individuals seek. I see very little intended. Be careful that you are perceiving what you wish for? In other words you are seeing misandry because you want to see it?

[Badtranny]

I see lots of goofy stuff on this forum but not a whole lot that I would consider misandry. Quite a bit that is arguably misogynous, and loads of silly pretension and creepy delusion, but most of these gals love being straight men too much to hate them.
Now self hatred? That I could see.

[Violetgray]

Then there are the members who seem to think disparaging remarks about men and masculinity are a reaffirmation of their femininity?


I see this much more than I see GG's being sexist.

[AllieSF]

Sandra, your quoted statistics and then your analysis should also include the statement that "many women" in that context "cheat or lie like many women do". Your statistics, as you quoted (I have not read the link), state "...of all married individuals ..." and did not separate out men nor women. Your stating that a lot of GM's here delayed telling their wives seems to well justify that you can say "cheat and lie like many men do" seems to me that you are extrapolating a conclusion without taking into consideration that many women also lie, cheat, over react, can be jerks, lack common sense, etc. I do not believe that men have that all to themselves. Let's all remember that this is a two way street, what you have seen negative in men I have also seen in men AND women. Why single out the men and not at least acknowledge that many women have those same traits and characteristics?

I think that Max is over reacting to what he has read, but your statements, unless I am misinterpreting them, seem to be providing him with some justifications.

[Rianna Humble]

Unless you are saying that the overwhelming majority of the 30-60% who cheat are provably female, then within that 30-60% there must be "many" men. Sandra did not say that this applied to the majority of men - that is your own inference. Sandra's quote was in reference to the contention that the statement that "many men cheat" was misandry. In fact it is merely statistical analysis.

That you are also right to say that many women cheat does not make your statement mysogynous any more than Sandra's (or the original quote) is mysandric.

[KellyJameson]

Misandry and Misogyny are dangerous concepts and labels because there is much that appears to be one or the other when it is something else completely.

Is a MTF transsexual a misandrist or a FTM Transman a misogynist compelled to change their bodies out of hate of the sex they were born into or is it the body as symbol and reminder of what prevents them from expressing and fully living their lives.

There is a great deal of violence done by both sexes but in different ways and it is easy to than claim everyone belonging to the male or female group as evil but I have yet to find any group to be completely without good, only evil actions done by individuals within any said group.

There are good christians,muslims,republicans,democrats,ect.... and bad, it is a question of having the capacity to respect life.

The expression of male sexuality has the potential to be violent more often than the expression of female sexuality but both males and females can do harm through the expression of their sexuality but the acknowledgement of this potential reality is not misandry or misogyny only the admission that sexuality is a powerful force in nature that can do both harm and good.

A GG being frightened by the man she loves wanting to dress as a woman from my perspective is a very natural reaction and I would feel the same way if I was in their shoes or bed but it would not mean I hate men as a group but only feared what the implications of this could be for me.

Being afraid of something does not mean that you automatically hate that which you fear but it would be foolish to turn ones back on something that is thought to present a danger until it is known otherwise.

To see a behavior or potential for a behavior is not to condemn the whole group, or to prefer one group over the other is not necessarily a rejection based on hate of the rejected group but an affinity for what we are attracted to.

There are many reasons for human behavior that could be labeled as hate but are not.

[Jessica86]

Max, I see what you are saying. I've seen recently the format has changed. Seems a post can be "X"from GG and those who agree with the post the GG made listed for four pages. When one disagrees, the post is either deleted, or you're set on fire like a witch in Salem. I do see the hate, however, no woman who first joins this site is going to be happy at men. For sure. Women join this site for one reason and one reason only. They are hurt and need support on this issue.
I know I had a support forum when I got divorced at an early age. I hated all women, and pushed that hurt onto them. I especially hated them because of who I am (Jessica), and felt like it was some sort of mental disease back then. The point I am trying to make is that it is there. I see it. Anyone who denies it is blind. Not saying there is an excuse for it, but maybe there is a unified reason why it is there?

[Stephenie S]

Max,

Did you notice the title of this forum? CD.com. Psst! It's a crossdressing site.

Misandry a problem here? I don't think so. Newsflash. It's 99% dudes.

Now ask me about misogyny. I might agree that there is occasionally some incredibly rampant misogyny displayed here. But mostly it's about clothes, you know? Crossdressing, clothes, see?

[sandra-leigh]

Sandra's quote was in reference to the contention that the statement that "many men cheat" was misandry. In fact it is merely statistical analysis.

Right. First you need to examine what the statement says, not what it might be considered to imply. Is the statement factually true? If it is factually true, can it be misandric?

[ReineD]

One issue that has really gotten stuck in my craw lately is the rampant misandry on these boards, particularly from some of the GG members.

Max, I've noticed this as well, but not among the GG members. The examples you quoted were from CDers.

I think that most members here will also remember having seen some male-bashing in this forum, with comments that particularly disapprove of the alpha male. I've always taken it that the disapproval of male characteristics is par for the course among many (not all) CDs/TGs/Middlepathers (whichever label you want to use), as being symbolic of rejecting their own inner males. I'm not saying this is their true motive, it's just the impression I've received from reading those comments.

You responded to a comment that I had made in another thread about women wanting to be domestic while men want sex (based on the television series, "Mad Men"), but I can assure you that I do not consider this a bad thing and this was not a put down of the male sex. It was an acknowledgement that men generally think about sex more often than women do (http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare). :)

The worst I've seen from GG members is the age old recognition that the two genders are different, not outright bashing.. Picture a GG who exclaims, "Men!" and rolls her eyes, in much the same way that a guy would say, "Women!" and roll his. It's the Venus and Mars thing (http://www.amazon.com/Mars-Women-Venus-Communication-Relationships/dp/006016848X).

[Foxglove]

Hi, Folks! My opinion is that Max has it right. I've generally kept my mouth shut about this issue. But when I joined this forum, it was one of the first things I noticed, the blatant and widespread misandry here. It puzzled me: given that most members of this MTF forum are men, how could there be such anti-male sentiment here? In fact, in the early days I was tempted to leave the forum altogether because it was my feeling that there was more misandry here than any other forum I've ever been on. I'm not the only one who's remarked on this. There are complaints from time to time, but they're never taken seriously.

I would disagree with Max on the two examples posted. I don't consider those misandric. But here's a thread that was so blatantly bigoted that it was quickly closed:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?175409-The-Mystery-of-Men&p=2860752&highlight=#post2860752

I will also say that I don't notice too much anti-male stuff from the GG's. Virtually all of it comes from us. Hard to understand.

The reason that people don't notice the misandry on this forum is because it's rather subtle. Although there are some blatant anti-male statements on this forum, such as "Men are garbage", most of the anti-male stuff is much less overt.

Consider this: suppose we came across a statement by a transman in this vein:

"Ever since I accepted myself, ever since I embraced my masculinity and began allowing myself to express it, I've been acting much more rationally, no more outbursts of excessive emotionality. I've been more calm, a more reasonable and mature person. Also I've tapped into an inner courage that I never felt before. I haven't been afraid to face up to things, etc., etc."

We'd all agree that this is sexist because it defines things such as being rational, calm, reasonable, mature, courageous as masculine, as if women can't be those things; and the only thing said about women is how excessively emotional they are. This is exactly the sort of sexism that's directed against men on this forum. You will see members saying how they express their femininity, how they've become much more caring, compassionate, kind, etc., as if men can't be those things. That is, we define certain virtues as feminine, when in fact they can belong to anybody.

Now I'm not going to be bothered going through this forum to find further examples than the one I've already given. What I can say is, look at things like this: see how women are characterized, see how men are characterized. One thing I find remarkable is how many people on this forum complain over and over about labels, stereotypes and generalizations, but as soon as the talk turns to men, there's hardly anything but labels, stereotypes and generalizations.

This forum didn't start a trend. Anti-male stuff has been prevalent in our society for quite some time. The difference between misogyny and misandry is that misogyny is remarked on and rightly defined for what it is. Misandry is regarded as perfectly acceptable. One reason I stopped watching TV was all the anti-male adverts you see. It's just amazing how routine it is for men to be portrayed as clumsy idiots. It's very, very rare for a woman to be shown looking silly.

You will see anti-male stuff like this:


I would say that 30 to 60% is enough to qualify as "many men" in the context "cheat or lie like many men do". And that's just cheating, without stats about lying.

Now this statement is sexist because it mentions men cheating, but it doesn't mention women cheating. And remember this: every time a man cheats on his wife, there's also a woman cheating on the wife. That fact isn't always mentioned. In this case, people picked up on it. But they don't always. Remember Tiger Woods? Everybody was saying how awfully he'd behaved and that was true. But it wasn't everybody pointing out that if one man had been bad, there were how many women--ten, fifteen?--who'd been just as bad.


Right. First you need to examine what the statement says, not what it might be considered to imply. Is the statement factually true? If it is factually true, can it be misandric?

And finally to close this post, yes, Sandra, despite the fact that a statement is true, it can be misandric. One of the best ways to tell a lie is by telling part of the truth, and this is a tactic often employed to criticize men. E.g., we all know that there are bad guys out there who abuse their wives and children. Undeniably true. But the other part of the story, which is rarely mentioned, is that there are also lots of women who abuse their husbands and children--and depending on the country in question, e.g., the USA, the level of female domestic abuse is hardly less significant than the male abuse. The lie here is that domestic abuse is done by men, when in fact it's done by both sexes.

As for me, I don't like sexism of either sort. If you think there's no anti-male sexism on this forum, just have a look-out for some of the things I've posted here. You'll find plenty of examples of it.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Just to add another note to my post as Reine posted before me. Here is a statement she made:

I've always taken it that the disapproval of male characteristics is par for the course among many (not all) CDs/TGs/TSs (whichever label you want to use), as being symbolic of rejecting their own inner males.

I have long suspected that this might be the motive for a lot of the anti-male stuff on this forum. I'm glad somebody else said it first.]

[whowhatwhen]

And how often do you see commercials with male homemakers?
I saw one a few years ago where a wife brings home flowers to her husband who had made dinner, but that didn't last long.

Also consider that men could be portrayed as idiots cleaning to reinforce the belief that those jobs are more suited to women.
Go count how many ads there are of male homemakers, does the man have to be the one in charge/smart one in everything in life?

Edit:
Won't someone please think of the poor oppressed straight man?

[Tamara Croft]

One issue that has really gotten stuck in my craw lately is the rampant misandry on these boards, particularly from some of the GG members.

So you make a thread banging on about GG members, then both your quotes are from CD'ers?? seriously.... get a grip :rolleyes:

[Foxglove]

Edit:
Won't someone please think of the poor oppressed straight man?

This is a Strawman Argument, one that is very, very, very commonly used when people point out that there are such things as anti-male statements. It doesn't address that fact. Have a look at the thread I gave a link to.

As I said, I generally keep my mouth shut on this issue, but I decided to get into it here because I think it is something that diminishes this forum.

Another thing I've pointed out before is that there are transguys on the FTM forum who know what is said about men here, and it puts them off. We don't have too many of them visiting us, and I can understand why. Does anybody care about that?

[Lee Andrews]

Wow, I don't see it but I come here with my pink coloured glasses on. Besides the ones I do notice are from CDers themselves. Really doesn't bother me, I tend to ignore those anyway, angry at themselves and need to take it out on others. Lifes too short to get worked up about what a stranger says on an internet board.

[whowhatwhen]

Edit:
Nevermind, it's probably not a good idea.

[kellycan27]

In my 3+ years here, most of the man bashing that I have seen was done by other men.. Dirty, nasty, smelly, pigs that they are. (according to them) :heehee:

[Frédérique]

Frederique's post is not the best example, just the most immediate one I could come up with.

At least you READ the damn thing… :clap:

BTW, I’m NOT a GG. I’m a man who wears women’s clothing, otherwise known as a MtF crossdresser. As such, I have a right to comment on the male mindset, because I happen to OWN one of those. You see, I'm not the kind of male they want me to be, which actually sticks in MY craw, OK?
:hmph:

[STACY B]

Good Lord,,, Somebody Needs a NAP ,,,,,

[Marleena]

I was going to post something here but Kelly's avatar distracted me and I forgot what it was.:D *sigh*

[kimdl93]

This thread has survived much longer than I ever thought possible, so I guess I'll pitch in my two cents worth. 1). I don't agree that there is widespread misandry here. I would acknowledge that many of us,myself included, are less than enthusiastic about what passes for typical male behavior or typical expectations of males. 2). Men deserve a certain amount of criticism...certainly American men. Just look at the declining graduation rates, the crime stats, the number of single parent females and you'll se that as a gender males are not performing well a despite a multi-millennial head start.

[whowhatwhen]

At least you READ the damn thing… :clap:

BTW, I’m NOT a GG. I’m a man who wears women’s clothing, otherwise known as a MtF crossdresser. As such, I have a right to comment on the male mindset, because I happen to OWN one of those. You see, I'm not the kind of male they want me to be, which actually sticks in MY craw, OK?
:hmph:

I agree!
There are quite a few people here who are rightfully a bit pissy over being forced into a role they either did not want or were forced into.
Cracks at masculinity aren't anywhere near some misogynist statements not only here, but elsewhere (especially on the internet) as well.

Besides, I have license to make fun of my own kind.

[AllieSF]

Actually Rianna and Sandra, I already commented on what Max said, I think he is over reacting and used bad examples to back up his opinion. My point probably has nothing to do directly with the definition of misandry nor misogyny, but rather making negative comments about one side when the same could be said about the other side. In this case about men, when a good case can be made that women can be classified as Sandra indicated just like the men, maybe with a slightly, but probably not a significant difference in quantity. I made no mention of "all" and that was not my intent, just that "many" can be applied to both genders. I just wanted to point out that from my experience over the last 5 years it is common here to see people isolate one gender in a negative way, that can be easily read as some type of bashing or indirect attack against that gender, intentional or not. I used Sandra's post to try to point that out, since she was directly referencing men, again intentional or not. I personally would like to see an equal time approach, acknowledging that both genders, in most instances, can be acting in the same negative way. I am not referring to GG's posts exclusively and agree with someone's comments here that probably the majority of negative comments toward males comes from males trying to shed their maleness and be more feminine than feminine. It is sometimes the appearance of a one sided view, however stated over time, toward a specific gender that lead to threads like this one.

[Babeba]

Max, I have three suggestions for you about posts, particularly from GG's, that may bother you about being sexist.

1) take a deep breath, and let it go.

2) from now on when a post bothers you, you can do one of two things: report it to the moderation team with the button on the bottom left (which really helps us out, we can't be everywhere at once) or tell the person who wrote it that their comment feels like a blanket stereotype and it makes you uncomfortable to read it. Be polite, and explain your feelings... Either they will realize that isn't how they meant it or hopefully they will realize how they are being narrow minded.

3) please do keep in mind that many of the GG members (particularly those with the low post counts) are new to this, and we quite often have a steep learning curve, a lot of learning to do, and that patience and support can help a lot more than being shouted at online to change that supposed misandry or mistransgyny.

[max]

Actually some of the GG post issues were more with the latter issues I mentioned



This doesn't even touch on the attacks on the different types of sexual and romantic relationships (especially those of different duration) aside from super long term partners sex-only-in-the-missionary-position-twice-a-year deal.

[ReineD]

Actually some of the GG post issues were more with the latter issues I mentioned



This doesn't even touch on the attacks on the different types of sexual and romantic relationships (especially those of different duration) aside from super long term partners sex-only-in-the-missionary-position-twice-a-year deal.

Well, you can hardly expect a GG who is married to a CDer to condone it if he chooses to go outside the marriage and have sex with men. :p

But, it is likely that she will support single gay or bi CDers who wish to be with men. Or women. Or both. Or other CDers. It's amazing how tolerant we all with sexual diversity, unless it is our partner who wants to have it outside of the relationship.

Really.

[Vickie_CDTV]

One other thing to remember is the point of view some people are coming from. Some of us (TV/TS/GG) have been abused by men in some capacity at some point in our lives and that may color their view of men, especially when it comes to men we don't know personally. Due to abuse I suffered at the hands of my father and other males growing up (and not to mention the view of men my abused mother has and passed onto me), I am mistrustful of other men generally, men I have not known personally for a long period of time. It is not a matter of hating men, but I find it very difficult to trust other men. It is something I am really trying to work on, but it is difficult sometimes not to expect the worst in other males, even though I logically know most men are fine people and are not abusers. If I have said something that was offense to men, I apologize, it was not my intention to do so.

[Rianna Humble]

probably the majority of negative comments toward males comes from males trying to shed their maleness and be more feminine than feminine.

In the interests of the balance that you say you want, that statement cannot go unchallenged. According to your theory there must be some negative posts from female contributors and some from males who are not trying to shed their maleness, some from males who are trying to shed their maleness but not trying to be more feminine than feminine not to mention those males who consider that their maleness is already balanced out by feminine traits.

It is equally fair to criticise your statement for lacking balance as to criticise a contribution which shows that the term "many males" can be supported statistically

[noeleena]

Hi,

Much of this is way over my head. & those words have no meaning to me haveing dyslexia,

I have said very clearly concerning my Mother what happened to her concerning a male so my distrust of men is real & i have very good reason .

The man that was soposed to be my father strangled my mother to the point of death had she been murdered i would not be here, one stranglulasion two deaths, fortunatley something happen & we were spared,

Do you think i hate men i dont bloody trust them, okay, i dont hate all men just some i dont wont to be around .

I spent most of my life 54 years trying to distance my self from them. yet i had to work under them that was very very difficult & hard, its only the last very few years iv been able to be around men in a friendly way. i think iv done quite well concidering what iv been through,& some abuse.

iv been in a few situastions i was able to get out of , one could have been very different.

Yes im a very strong woman, im not a dresser or trans, being I S female at birth with extra has its own set of issues,
I dont know what its like being male never had that imprint in my wireing yet i know what males are capable of as iv said,

Why im writeing this is just to say i know not all men are like my...... so called father......, just some of us come from broken homes with a lot of issues that some times we & in my case just dont get over ,its very trying,

as iv heard many times from some males oh take a pill & get over it,,One of the reasons we are so different from males , we are female / woman & we.... are...... different in so many ways,

I allso live in a Village near a group of guys who can be very surportive yes even to me, yet , when they are drinking or at the Pub they are very........& youll know what i mean i cant stand being near them,
So hope you understand where im comeing from.

...noeleena...

[Marleena]

Oh.. I remembered my thought after being distracted by Kelly's avatar.:)

Each of us will see topics that, as individuals, will be of more importance to us for personal reasons and react strongly to them. I have a few that put me in attack or defense mode. Keep in mind the original poster warned us this would be a rant.

What I know is that all MTFs were born genetic males and any comments perceived of attacking them as GM's are usually stereotypical of what you see in the real world.
But when I see an MTF talking badly about, or attacking a GG I see a GM doing the attacking and that does bother me here because I see a minority group (MTF) attacking that GG.

I will also try to protect an MTF from attack by either a GG, GM, or another MTF since they are a minority group and the whole reason for the need for this board.

Hope that makes sense. Maybe not..

[almisami]

I'm not the kind of male they want me to be.

I think this sums up about everyone here.

I'm personally one of the most misandrous people on the board, although I hate the female ideal about just as much. I just don't buy into how artificial everything feels anymore. Theres something so much more real about being frail, nurturing and nurtured back than it is to be the independent obsidian monolith society asks us to be. I don't hate men, I hate everything ABOUT men. The ideals of chivalry and brotherhood that I viewed as the last redeeming positive influence upon the male gender eroded away during the turn of the millennium and left nothing but superficial void in its wake.

[Foxglove]

Hello, Whowhatwhen! I know this is the second time on this thread that I've followed up on a post of yours, so it might look like I'm picking on you personally. I assure you there's nothing personal in this, and I hope you won't take it that way. It's just that you're saying a couple of things here that I think need an answer.



Cracks at masculinity aren't anywhere near some misogynist statements not only here, but elsewhere (especially on the internet) as well.

Here are a couple of cracks at masculinity taken from the thread I earlier gave a link to:

There is no mystery of men. They are pathetically predictable little creatures.


That's because men are born with 2 heads and only enough blood to operate one head at a time.

What I object to about cracks against masculinity is (1) they're generally at about a 6-year-old level and (2) they're generally not true. The above two fit this description.

I'd invite you, in contrast, to look at the very last post on that thread, the one by Sharon, who gives an honest assessment of men: yes, there are bad men, nobody denies that, but there's a lot of good things that can be said about men, too.

And, yes, there's a lot of misogyny on the net and even a bit on this forum. But I think we all know that "two wrongs don't make a right". What we should do is keep both of them off this forum. As I've also pointed out, the difference between misogyny and misandry is that misogyny, unlike misandry, is at least recognized for what it is and is condemned by right-thinking people.



Besides, I have license to make fun of my own kind.

I've had a long think about this one, and sorry, but I don't think it will fly for various reasons. First of all, who is your kind? Are we talking about men? There are different types of men. On this forum we have men who generally call themselves "crossdressers", but do identify as men, and I have in fact seen a complaint from one or two of them about the anti-male stuff on this forum. Perhaps we should remember that any sort of anti-male stuff here could be offensive to about half of our members. It seems odd to me that a lot of people here don't seem to be terribly concerned about that.

There are also transmen. As I've said before, I know, from having visited their forum, that they do take offense at what is said about men on this forum. I'll also say this: I'm a member of another TG forum, a small, Irish forum, on which there's no segregation. It's guys and girls all together, and it is so refreshing. It's so much fun to get to talk to the guys (especially when they start flirting with you). They're great guys, and it's good to hear their point of view, and for me the de facto segregation that exists here is the chief drawback of this forum. In the cis-world you have guys and girls, and in the trans-world you have guys and girls, and yet we almost never see any guys here. It makes my world feel empty.

And then of course there are cis-guys. But they're not our kind. We're trans. However we perceive or classify ourselves as individuals, all of us here are trans in some shape or fashion. And so let us remember that on this forum whenever we're taking a shot at cis-guys, we're not actually criticizing our kind.

And even if we are criticizing our kind, there's still a problem there. Let's say I call myself, just to choose a name at random, "a B-prime transperson". And suppose I say, "B-primes are so insensitive." Now another B-prime might rightly ask me, "Are you including yourself in that?"

If I say, "Yes," then she could answer, "Well, speak for yourself then. We're not all the same. If you've got some kind of problem, don't try and foist it off on the rest of us. It's not exactly generous, or just for that matter, to try and tar everybody else with the same brush. Get yourself sorted out before you start preaching at us."

Or if I say, "No," then the obvious reply is that I'm not really criticizing my own kind. On the contrary, I'm trying to distance myself from my own kind. I'm trying to show that whereas all the rest of them have a problem, I'm different. I'm better. And I'll guarantee you that there are plenty of men who make anti-male statements for precisely that reason. They'll try to suggest, e.g., that all other men on the planet are into violence against women, but "Oh, no, not me! I'm better than all of them." What they're trying to do is validate themselves at the expense of all their fellow men. I personally don't find that a respectable procedure.

Finally: what I find sad about the anti-male stuff on this forum is that we do in fact need cis-guys. We need their respect and understanding and acceptance, and it's hard for me to see how we're going to get it when we don't show them any of that.

I can't imagine myself going in front of a group of cis-guys and suggesting that they're all insensitive, lacking in caring, kindness, intelligence, etc. They might ask, "Who are you?" And if they found out that I call myself "Annabelle" and that I like to wear bras and panties and dresses--well, let's say I wouldn't want to be around to hear the howl of laughter that would provoke. It's why I'm not inclined to get into a slinging match with the cis-guys: I'd lose.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[NicoleScott]

Good post, Annabelle, and I agree with you.

[whowhatwhen]

Those aren't cracks about masculinity though, those are blanket statements which do not apply to my example.
Those are insults directed at all men, but it's nowhere near someone making fun of guys acting tough or whatever they do.

Also: A license to make jokes isn't a license for outright bigotry toward men, but aside from those few examples I'm not seeing it often enough to declare it as a war on men or anything.

For clarification: Being born male gives me license to make jokes about men, just wait till I move to Quebec just for the jokes!
:)

I don't take offense though to a discussion so don't worry about singling out my posts.
I just hope this thread doesn't turn into /r/mensrights.....

[BRANDYJ]

Like a few others, I have learned not one, but two new words today. But based on their definitions, they are strong words... To strong to use for me. I do not hate men and I do not hate women. But I do hate some things either gender might say and do. That's not misandry or misogyny in any stretch of either definition. To say there is a lot of male hating or female hating in our forums is false Most GG's that are here are here to support a male they love; So much so that they post their questions, concerns and feelings about their men. That sure is not hate.

[Stephanie47]

I guess I'm in the pool of guys/gals who just doesn't see a rampant display of anti-anything. It may be I've been anesthetized by watching too much cable political news shows. My easy chair remote has a 'mute' button. Presto! The ranting and raving is tuned out. The same with the political ads and prescription medicine ads, too! Sometimes I have a differing opinion than many of the comments made, and, on occasion I do post the contra position and put my two cents into the discussion. Sometimes I hit the 'mute' button and go to the next thread.

I really do not see a tidal wave of negative comments made by woman toward men in general, and, cross dressing men in particular. Any woman who takes the time to seek out this site and register to make a comment must have some vested interest in the subject. I've read many comments ascribed to women, who have discovered their husband's cross dressing desires. I think their negative feelings may be warranted. On the other hand I've read scores, if not hundreds of threads over the years, by men who are discussing ways to 'hide' their activities. There are hundreds of threads by men discussing their years of self hatred, loathing, lack of masculinity, etc because they are cross dressers. Been there, done that!

If you see a comment you do not agree with, post a response. Otherwise hit the 'mute' button and go watch cable news.

[ReineD]

I guess I'm in the pool of guys/gals who just doesn't see a rampant display of anti-anything.

I agree with you. The threads/comments in question are few and far between when one considers the total number of posts made in all the sections, on a daily basis, day after day after day.

Yet people have an uncanny ability to pick up on the few comments that rub them the wrong way and believe that EVERYONE here feels that way. All the time. :rolleyes:

[Veronica27]

I would not refer to anything I have read as misandry, but I have detected a degree of negativity from time to time towards the stereotypical expectations placed on men by our culture and its rules. Many men devote themselves to conformity with these societal images of manhood to the point where they are not being true to themselves. However, something similar in the opposite direction could be said of women as well. This is not being either misandrous or misogynous, but is simply commentary on society and the herd instinct which was discussed in another thread. In addition, misandry in the strictest sense refers to hatred of men by women. While there are some postings by women, the majority are by crossdressing men. The examples that were given by a few others, escaped my viewing at the time, but were prime examples of the sort of thing being referenced in the opening post. It does exist in this forum, but is not in my mind a serious problem, or true misandry.

What I have found to be more bothersome are similar attacks by those in our community toward the attitudes of society about transgenderism, and toward the feelings of spouses about their crossdressing husbands. Too often, for my liking, I detect a callous disregard for the feelings and beliefs of others, and not enough empathy and understanding. We sometimes seem to forget that it is we who are being different, and difficult for the mainstream of society to comprehend, and that we are a very small minority. We are expecting that overnight we can overturn attitudes, opinions and beliefs that are centuries old and well embedded in the psyche of the average person. They may treat us cordially and with respect, because that is the civilized thing to do, but we have no idea what their thoughts actually are.

I have not posted any references because it is a relatively minor annoyance, and I have probably been guilty of many opinionated postings myself without realizing the potential impact on certain sensitivities. A degree of "bashing" of others in a group sense does exist here, and is almost unavoidable given the nature of our predilection. The main thing is to be civil, not make personal attacks and to reread anything we write to see how it might appear to others, before posting.

Veronica

[Silentpartner GG SO]

I like your post a lot Veronica -

[sandra-leigh]

I would not refer to anything I have read as misandry,

Myself, I would refer to some parts as misandry -- but only notably so from a very small number of individuals, rather than something I consider systematic or pervasive.

[max]

I would probably punch my husband in the eye if he even suggested wearing girly day clothes to bed - in our house no girly clothes are allowed in the bed full stop - no nighties/negligee's for him. He likes to sleep naked anyway, as do I. Sleeping in day clothes is just minging.


This isn't one of the major issues, but something to think about:

Would it be equally acceptable to say
I would probably punch my wife in the eye if... ?

[ReineD]

?

Max, no one here is in a position to judge the dynamics between husband and wife. Silentpartner didn't say this about you or about other CDers. And as far as you know, Silent's husband may be happy with also not bringing it into their bedroom. Believe it or not, many CDers don't want to. This couple is doing what works for them, even if you do not approve.

There are also such things called "expressions" that must not always be taken literally.

I have a suggestion for you. Rather than criticize how everyone else is handling things, why don't you start a thread about your own life, your own struggles, the things that bother you particularly with the people that you deal with every day? You might find this a great deal more helpful than being judge and jury on everyone else.

And I'm posting this as a member (whose SO is dualgender), not as a mod.

[suit]

a rant back at you >>
what do you all expect ???
it’s called society , and it is not well managed or organized.
men???....they are to be grown from teenage boys !
Teenagers from pre-adolescent boys .
Ok now how many head injuries in that mess ? football games/ drop and smash there head so it sounds like a cracked nut… “walk it off!” wonder why some of your old friends never seemed to grow after that ? that’s called being tough ! be a “MAN “ do some shots, pot ,drugs and something reckless at the same time! Try as you might , some giant a@@ hole will impress miss yum yum in a p.o.s. Chevy product by being a knuckle dragging bone head.
Remember the maelstrom called jr. high/High school?, fights, gangs and clicks filled and working a chimp like mentality, while driven by hormones. Boys trying to prove something .girls get whacked with the comparison : perfect skin big Barbie like boobs, skinny as a 14 year old cd. And should be “putting out” at 12, nice job media!
if you’re a boy and pay any attention your going to be drafted sent off to replay Vietnam, because the “big boys in congress are playing kill the boys in the name of big $$ for big oil.
this equates to >> worthless/disposable boys/young men, so fat cats can profit, if he is not a newly imported man his ability to work in the system to get a education that’s worth something is much harder than if he were previously not raised by Americans. Again American males are disposable. this is easier to belive if at least on parent is an alcoholic.
Doubt this. What kind of job outlook does the media portray for teenage men, For women? , For black males for white males ,even with a $100,000 education ? When are they going to be able to break even ? And make $$ for themselves? Not without a woman and her better job/benefits. And that makes for what kind of mental image ?
Hope you’re not unemployed at 50 and have a nut sack! You probably don’t even make a good skin donner .
Why would any thoughtful being want to be a boy ?

[Babeba]

This isn't one of the major issues, but something to think about:

Would it be equally acceptable to say ?

I think that there is a certain amount of hyperbole that makes some expressions more ridiculous than serious, with still getting across an idea of a type of unhappy passion?

The fact that most (but by no means all) domestic violence is by men against women creates a situation where subverting that paradigm is taken as funny rather than serious.

To make violence against women unrealistic and against the usual sort of violence they face also makes it more abstract, absurd, and like humour for some people. I have I. The past threatened to curb stomp me some ovaries, and it gets the point across without being realistic or taking itself very seriously.

[max]

The fact that most (but by no means all) domestic violence is by men against women


Did you base this on any statistics?




“In the 35 years since I began research on partner violence, I have seen my assumptions about prevalence and etiology contradicted by a mass of empirical evidence from my own research and from research by many others,” Straus said. “My view on partner violence now recognizes the overwhelming evidence that women assault their partners at about the same rate as men. However, when women are violent, the injury rate is lower.”

http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2006/may/em_060519male.cfm?type=n

[Eryn]

That is an interesting concept and is likely valid if we consider the different way violence between genders is perceived by society. If a woman slaps a man in a bar it's assumed the he had it coming and nobody gives it a second thought. If a man slaps a woman he'll be pinned to the floor until the police arrive.

Which is more likely to happen and which will be recorded in the statistics?

[Babeba]

Sorry, I should have said, 'The fact that most (but by no means all) domestic violence is perceived as being by men against women...' there are a lot of men who are abused; no one should have to go through that, regardless of their gender.

My point stands that improbable acts of violence are absurd and therefore darkly humorous. The very second that guy in the uk had his testicle ripped off by his girlfriend a couple years ago jokes about guys getting their balls removed by their girlfriends became unfunny, just scary. Of course in a couple years when that fellow's pain has been blurred in the public's memory, jokes will happen again. Humor is just one of those ways people deal with troubling things.

[docrobbysherry]

I disappear for awhile and come back to this?:eek:

U know it ALL boils down to a "sense of humor". Why? Because it's not really about m--- or m---. I won't even use those M word terms! I don't believe they are relevant here. Because a much better word to describe everything you've discussed is "sexist".

What makes our human world turn? SEX! We live, think, talk, and joke about it ALL THE TIME! So, it's no wonder it crops up in every comedian's jokes. Is it? And inevitably, in many of the posts on this site. Because we're ALL sexist! Except for those rare "Middle-ers" Reine mentioned.

It never fails to get a laff or grab your attention. Just as Max's post, has grabbed ours!

But, think about it: Sex and this site? Some of us may be among the most mixed up and confused individuals sexually on the planet!:brolleyes:

Sexists here? Ha ha ha! This thread should make us ALL laff! After all, maybe the joke is on us!:heehee:

[ReineD]

Did you base this on any statistics?

http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2006/may/em_060519male.cfm?type=n

Let me ask you Max.

Have you been the victim of domestic abuse, and is this why you object to male-bashing here? Do you by extension feel that women are equally as aggressive and violent overall, and do you therefore feel they are falsely admired in this forum?

I'm just trying to understand what your point is, exactly.

In terms of statistics, the study you cite reports predominately minor assault (pushing, grabbing, slapping, throwing something at partner), among 13,600 college students in 68 colleges, in 32 countries, students who were in relationships ranging from one to twelve months. I've no idea what percentage of the total student population, these couples represent. One percent? Three? Five? Does this mean that women overall are equally as violent as men (or more) over their lifetimes?

In terms of the more serious domestic abuse and rape, take a look at these statistics:

http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/

Still, I don't see the correlation between the stereotypical male behaviors that some members here object to (such as conversations limited to beer guzzling, sports and cars, swearing, being ultra competitive, unfeeling, posturing, skirt chasing, generally being apish and uncommunicative, etc) that I thought you were alluding to in your opening post, and the statistics you now cite about college couples who fight, and which gender is the most responsible for initiating it.

One of my sons had a girl kick him where it counts when he was in middle school, at the bus stop. He was always taught to not hit girls and he didn't kick her face in which he would have done had she been a guy. He came home in pain, I was very angry and contacted the girl's mother who was equally upset. The young girl got severely punished and she was made to apologize to my son. They eventually became friends and the incident was never repeated. I wonder if there are more women who throw books at men or who slap them during a fight, who are left untouched precisely because we teach our boys to not fight back, since if they did surely these women would find themselves in emergency care. I dare say that a boy would likely grab her arms to prevent her from continuing. Is this why there are so many couples in this study where the minor violence was initiated by the female?

I also wonder how a measure of same-sex violence would compare. Would they find that more men resort to violence to settle differences between themselves than do women? I've read that female bullying and violence is on the rise, but it is nowhere near as prevalent as it is among boys, and also there are more men incarcerated for violent crime than women. I'll need to look for statistics on this however. Maybe our women's prisons are getting as full as the men's.

But keep in mind, we are talking about people who do not know how to resolve conflict as a small percentage of the total population. These are not prevalent behaviors.