The Rules of MAN CLUB

[Anne2345]

Society begins the separation of gender at birth. Boys wear blue, and girls wear pink. Starting at a very early age, all are eventually expected to adhere to certain unwritten rules and conditions promulgated and enforced by the masses, and conform accordingly within a narrow scope of predetermined and predefined “acceptable” behavior, without deviation, transgression, or question.

The concepts of “femininity” and “masculinity” are likewise assigned very specific meanings, and tenets have long been established and applied separately between and to the genders. Crossing from the jurisdiction of one gender into that of the other is typically met with disapproval, misunderstanding, ignorance, and fear. Deviation from the “norm” is frowned upon.

Unfortunately, I was born a genetic male. Not knowing any better, my parents, family, friends, schools, churches, and community did their collective best to raise and condition me to be a manly man. Manly men have huge balls, big swinging <cough, cough>, muscles ON muscles, are full of machismo, enthusiastically engage in the time honored practice of flatulence, and believe expressing any genuine emotion at all is a huge ass character flaw.

The thing is, I don’t like many of the rules I am expected to follow as a genetic male. In fact, given my recent evolution and acknowledgement of self, I say f*** the rules, because the rules have f***ed my life up for too long now. I want to be me, and I am going to be me. The rules be damned. They no longer control my life, they no longer matter as they did before.

And let’s be honest about it all. Many of the so-called rules that males are expected to abide by are just plain stupid, nonsensical, and barbaric. I just don’t get it. I don’t get it at all. But you know what? I am glad that I don’t get it. I am relieved that I don’t get it. Because these rules suck. They are terrible. They are embarrassing. They are debasing and steal true, legitimate meaning from lives that should otherwise be validated through acceptance, love, compassion, and understanding.

For reasons that I shall not address in this post (you all know THAT post is coming, and it's just right around the corner - I apologize in advance), I have thought much about the “rules” lately. I do not like the rules. The rules are not fair. The rules strip those such as I of my purpose, self-worth, and humanity.

Coincidentally enough, I was lost in thought the other night, contemplating the very nature of the male rules of conduct, mindlessly flipping through television channels with not particular interest in mind (a male behavior to be sure - D'OH!!!), when I randomly came across the movie Fight Club. Way back in the day, when I bought in to the expectations that were placed upon me (or rather, I hid deeply within and conformed to the expecations for fear of discovery, rejection, and losing everything important to me), I watched and let it be known that I reveled (ha ha) in this movie.

Seeing some of it now, years and years and years later, I was instantly struck with the inspiration for this post. The rules of Fight Club were intense, violent, macho, and set in stone. Violate the rules at your own risk. The rules of Man Club are not so really that different. And in the same vein, it's violate the rules at your own risk. FWIW, here’s my satirical take on the rules of Fight Club.

The Rules of Man Club:

1st Rule: You always talk about MAN CLUB, sports, chicks, and the large size of your . . . .
2nd Rule: You ALWAYS talk about MAN CLUB, sports, chicks, and the large size of your . . . .
3rd Rule: If someone questions your MANHOOD, it is time to fight.
4th Rule: Every MAN for himself.
5th Rule: A MAN goes to the bathroom one MAN at a time.
6th Rule: No blood, no foul.
7th Rule: There is no crying in MAN CLUB.
8th Rule: If this is your first night at MAN CLUB, you HAVE to blow something up.

As consistent with Fight Club, I have only listed eight rules. But there are sooooo many more. Feel free to cite any rules that SHOULD have been on this list, or COULD have been on this list, or that you just have a problem with . . . .

[Debglam]

Go Anne, go!

I played by the rules, beat the game, and learned that I'd rather be me! I'm sending back the trophy for my tiara!

Hugs,
Debby

[Marleena]

I don't like any of the 7 Rules Anne. I'm out to break them all, in fact I already did. So I guess I left the club already. I hope this doesn't fall under the category misandry or however you spell it..

Psst...1 & 2 are the same rules.:)

[Cynthia Anne]

Anne if there's one thing I love about you is that you are not afraid to speak the truth! The problem with ''man rules'' is that they were written by MAN! They have no bearing on each person born male! Love your strong attitude! Hugs my friend!

[Ava Tryptyk]

You're better off hanging out with like-minded men who also don't believe in following such rules. You probably already do. The kinds of guys that constantly rave about beer, sports, and getting laid are for the most part outside of my social circle, so I don't really have to deal with that kind of thing on a daily basis. The most important thing is to be true to yourself - don't ever try to act "macho", because you'll hate yourself for it. If you legitimately like being the "manly man", then go for it, but don't do it just to please anyone, not even a spouse/lover.

[Cassandra86]

Idk first off let me say Fight Club is one of the best movies of all time. I use to want to look exactly like bradd pitt in that movie. Now with that out of the way im all for the man rules when im not Cassandra granted theres always a lil fem side in everything i do. But most days im the manliest man u can meet. I weightlift, i train in combat full contact sports. And u better believe if u step up to me or my wife im knocking u out lol. I dont talk about how big my stuff is but i do like to blow things up on occasion. Now when im cding i obviously dont follow the man rules but again u mess with me or wife when im out as cassandra my heels are comin-g off and im throwing down and will make u pay for my beautiful pink nails u broke lol

[ReineD]

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I've got to say that I see the world of men way differently than you do. Around me and those like me, they are well behaved. They even put napkins on their laps when they eat. And they chew their food with their mouths closed.

They talk about anything that I want to talk about: politics, philosophy, (gossip about mutual friends :o), kids, hobbies, the arts, travel, food, painful moments in their lives. Some of them like to cook and collect stuff. And I've even seen one of two of them cry.

[KellyJameson]

I never became a member of the man club because I have not been able to relate to men as a man or women as a man because I'm both but neither.

It is a question of expectations, imagined or otherwise that we fight against and this is equally true for women as for men. The difference is in the expectations not there absence.

The potential for guilt and shame is equal between men and women because both have been controlled for the "greater good"

It is a relationship between good and bad and to have a good relationship with ourselves we must be "good" but what we think we need to do to be "good" kills us.

Some men think they are "bad" (weak according to others) if they cry.
Some men think they are "bad" (perverted/sick according to others) if they wear a skirt.
Some men think they are not men unless they want to have sex all the time (virility as status to others)

The list is endless for both men and women but it is always relational, we use others to feel "good" about ourselves and thats what does us in, you cannot learn to love yourself by being loved.

A happy person is the one utterly unselfconscious because they have gone back to the beginning when they were free in the first years of life before they were made aware of others through shame but there is only one way back to this time and that is to act unselfconscious which is to risk everything.

When you have this freedom back again you lose your fear of people and usually they stop fearing you because they sense you do not fear them and they will be drawn to you trying to have what you have (freedom from selfconsciousness)

Many adults resent children because of this innocence (unselfconscious) and try to kill it because it was stolen from them in childhood. Teaching them shame, putting them on the path to become sick adults and always with the justification that it is for the greater good.

Respect life but live unselfconsciously.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Id like to say Mum gave me & allowed me to do what i liked with out being told what to do as far as i was concerned.

There did come a time i was with in a group & they were siteing idears or thier rules concerning men . & this is not the first time , I walked & refused to be told what i could or not accept & my thoughts were ,.....To hell....with thier teaching & again bloody men & thier stupid made up rules, so i left & i keeped on walking ,

Then one day quess what i go to another group, some 15 years ago a group of men again yes dressing up. tryed to get along with them , till i said to Jos why did i try again it did not work because im a woman,

dont get me wrong they were guys i had no issue with them was not those men in this case, it was me , a woman not relateing to men . i was never a man to start with. so i tryed & again i walked,

I was never at home around men no matter what they wore, & as you know thats very deep seated, from birth,

Those rules, never keeped them or tryed in fact never knew there were any ,

No 7 i did not hide being emotionanlly inclined what would i be called . stop being a girl. ...why.... i was / am one .

As to the others , long gone over my head.

...noeleena...

[STACY B]

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I've got to say that I see the world of men way differently than you do. Around me and those like me, they are well behaved. They even put napkins on their laps when they eat. And they chew their food with their mouths closed.

They talk about anything that I want to talk about: politics, philosophy, (gossip about mutual friends :o), kids, hobbies, the arts, travel, food, painful moments in their lives. Some of them like to cook and collect stuff. And I've even seen one of two of them cry. Hey I love to cook ,,An me an my SO talk about everything ,,, I used to be like the others but not anymore ,,lol,,, Ive been saved my the LADYS ,,, An moved over to the other side . An for the last time I wasn't crying ,,, There was something in my eye ,,,, Geez,,,,,,

[Laura912]

The trouble with stereotypes is that they are stereotypical. Almost every one, when confronted with stereotypes, say to themselves, ah yes, I know someone like that ergo, it must be true. I do not know anyone like those on your list. Maybe in my next 70 years....:). One could just as easily make a similar list for GGs, but of what value is that?

[Jonianne]

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I've got to say that I see the world of men way differently than you do. Around me and those like me, they are well behaved. They even put napkins on their laps when they eat. And they chew their food with their mouths closed.

They talk about anything that I want to talk about: politics, philosophy, (gossip about mutual friends :o), kids, hobbies, the arts, travel, food, painful moments in their lives. Some of them like to cook and collect stuff. And I've even seen one of two of them cry.

Spoken like a GG who sees the world through lovely, non-biased eyes. I know you have corrected me a few times on this very subject.

[Marleena]

I think Anne is talking about the old traditional male role. You know.. the old stereotype that us older folk were raised with. Anne can correct me if I'm wrong.:)

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Anne, Rules what rules we don't need no stinking rules.

[Kate Simmons]

Only one thing to say-ta da! Rules were meant to be broken. From what I've seen the rules of liberated Women's club aren't much different.Sometime you have to fight fire with fire though. In fact if you adhere to the rules of the Men's club as a woman, men quickly get grossed out and sometimes see just how idiotic and barbaric the whole thing is. Mostly it's just plain laziness and an excuse to act irresponsibly.:)

[dizzy]

Apperiently you have to dress and act corectly too. yesterday I was told I handed in my man card because I have a purple cover on my phone, that my kid picked out for me and was given a ton of grief because I wear girls jeans, this was all at work. I hate rules!

[NicoleScott]

Anne, maybe you should copy your post over to the misandry thread, to serve as a good example.
So you've just described typical male behavior, the result of millions of years of evolution, and it seems to be working just fine.
It's how we're wired. And not just in human males.
I'm a deer, a buck. My antlers are bigger than yours. I'm a stud, and you're not, so I get to breed and you don't, not while I'm around. If you don't accept this, we can lower our heads and go for it. But you should look at my other studly behaviors, taking them as a clue for you to back off if you know what's good for you. I'm on top around here - don't make me prove it.
Nature just made us this way.

[Dawn cd]

I don't think Anne was talking about all males, but about "macho-ness." However, the rules of the Man's Club are culturally conditioned and change from place to place. There may be one set of rules for rural Tennessee and another for urban Los Angeles or New York. Gordon Gekko was a smooth Wall Street broker but lived by the rules of the Man's Club.

I think we must acknowledge, too, that misogynism is an essential tenet of every Man's Club. They are all anti-women. The vested clerics who run the Vatican may be cultured gentlemen, but they are card-carrying members of the Man's Club.

[BRANDYJ]

I'm a happy member of the man club. I get your point about how some men, not all do or say some cross things. I am free to be manly if not macho, but that does not mean I don't engage in enthusiastically in the time honored practice of flatulence, gross, and I don't even like jokes about it. I don't like fighting, but will if the reason is significate and there is no other way to settle it. I don't even watch the fights, wrestling or other bar barrack over the top macho things. I've been known to cry, even at a sad movie. I never saw the movie Fight Club and would switch the channel if it came on. I don't call my wife or SO, the old lady or worse like some men think is cool. I don't brag about the size of anything. I love women and respect them. I open door, pull out chairs and act like a gentleman at all times around any women. yes, I'm a member ofr the man club and proud of it. Oh, did I mention I am also a CD?

[kimdl93]

The rule I recall was "go outside and play". And this was the rule summer or winter in western MN. When I think of the men in my own family, what seemed to be Man Club rules were "react to stress, frustration, fear or failure with anger" and unfortunately I emulated that one. And another was, all social activities must revolve around alcohol, which as a teenager and young adult, I complied with to excess.

But even despite the above, the men in my life were good, hard working, honest and responsible people, as were the women. Maybe part of the problem was that as a young person, I presumed that I chose to emulate the worst of the Man Club rules and suppressed the other, more constructive rules.

[bridgetta]

My thoughts lately are that. Woman average to live ten years longer than men. I think that is because woman are allowed to pay attention in ways men are not.
For example. I have dry skin on my lower leg. Its very hard to moisturize with hair all over it. Shaving makes it easier. So men are taught to be tough. To endure However this is not the best approach. There is a reality to cd'ing that comes from breaking some rules but the rules are ridiculous.

[Kelly Smith]

A few comments on "The Rules":
1st Rule: Be prepared to intelligently discuss any subject: Art, history, religion, politics, sports, chicks, or anything else of general interest. I have never been in a conversation with a MAN in which my penis size was discussed.
3rd Rule: If someone questions your MANHOOD, inform his designated driver.
4th Rule: MEN evolved to pursue common goals through cooperation.
5th Rule: MEN do indeed go to the bathroom one MAN at a time. I am good with that.
6th Rule: Spit on it and run a lap.
7th Rule: Physical pain doesn't hurt that much but you are expected to get a little drippy during "Marley and Me".
8th Rule: Most MEN prefer to build things.

[ReineD]

I think Anne is talking about the old traditional male role. You know.. the old stereotype that us older folk were raised with. Anne can correct me if I'm wrong.:)

OK. I'll buy that and quietly slip into the background now. :) :hugs:



Edit

And thanks also, Joni. But to be fair, I do think that men behave differently with one another than they do when they are with us. I always took it that men were truly themselves when they were with their mothers, wives, and families, and only put on the macho mask (for those who do this) in the presence of other men.


Maybe part of the problem was that as a young person, I presumed that I chose to emulate the worst of the Man Club rules and suppressed the other, more constructive rules.

Brilliantly said! I've noticed at times when other members describe themselves in guy mode, they don't give themselves permission to engage in the (softer .. for lack of a better word) behaviors that men who do not CD engage in, after they've moved beyond the ritual of proving their young manhood and have become more secure in themselves?

[Foxglove]

Wow! Anne, you're such a sweetheart, but this post is truly unworthy of you. Don't worry about it. We all have our bad moments. As probably everybody here knows, I've had plenty of my own on this forum.

There's currently a thread on this forum on "Misandry", and some people were actually trying to deny that there is any of that here.

Anne, maybe you just grew up in a backward part of the world, or maybe you misunderstood, but where I grew up guys were taught to study hard, to work hard, to be good to their women and children, to be honest, to obey the laws, to be kind--and also to play hard, because playing is fun and it's even more fun when you really go at it. And there was nothing wrong with a bit of culture, exploring and enjoying things like books and films and music. Oh, and also, flatulence wasn't considered to be a manly virtue.

Anne, just because we don't want to be men doesn't mean we have to try and tear men down. It's like this: doctors are great people, but I never wanted to be a doctor. Firefighters are great people, but I never wanted to be a firefighter. Teachers are great people, but I learned pretty quickly in my youth that I didn't want to be a teacher. And most guys are OK, too, even though I never wanted to be one myself. Just because we don't want to be something doesn't mean we have to hate it and misrepresent it and try to destroy it. We can try to appreciate its virtues, even if we don't want to share those virtues ourselves.

Anne, this post is no good. Why not consider deleting it?

Best wishes, Annabelle

[sterling12]

I think you might be confusing The Man Club with The Brute Club!

Like women, Men come in all flavors, and your depiction is perhaps, simplistic? I know many men who enjoy The Opera, men who take an interest in many other things aside from flatulence! For every Macho Man, there's a Frazier. And, yeah I get it! I know your venting!

One of the current threads that's in this section, is taking us all to task abut Misandry. We should be a little more careful with this kind of "bashing," or oversimplification, it might just verify what The OP of that thread is claiming. I think people around here are intelligent and rational. I think the same thing about yourself. But, I think we need to stop, and think about some of these things. The World is filled with both sexes. We may be unhappy with our gender, but that's no reason not to get along! When we generalize, or characterize all people as this or that, all we do is alienate, and cause anger and problems.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Thera Home]

Hello Anne and everyone else
Hopefully this note finds all of you in good health and spirit
Been away for awhile and will probably be away again so please bear with me
The feeling you all describe are very real and very controllable, I have those feelings when I need to get things done as far as family and living issues.
But, since this new feeling sometimes overwhelms me it also brings a peace within me that I have no fear of cuddling with my wife and expressing a softer side to my children(though they still drive me nuts at times). I prefer this new softer and nuturing side of me that is a more welcoming persona to all I meet. Im trying to learn how to move or manipulate my feelings to serve my family and others that I meet. Anyway just my two bits

Thera

P.S. What you all say we go blow something up just for giggles:heehee::D

[Barbara Ella]

This one took some time to work through, but I think a point has been well made within the framing context of rules, and fight club individuals, which make up only a part of the whole.

First, rules of behavior, regardless of how well intentioned, suck. And no matter what level of society, male or female, i will not be bound by rules that are imposed from outside.

Secondly, any developmentally challanged individual who would engage in and enjoy a fight club approach to life, can certainly be said to fit the rules laid out, and are to be ignored.

But, even the most highly refined individual, (as pointed out, there are many examples) if they are only doing what they do because there are rules they must follow, and have no self invested in their actions, are to be just as disrespected as the fight club individual.

It is all about following rules by rote, and not doing what is right because you know in your heart it is right, and you know in your heart what is wrong.

I eschew rules at all levels, and will follow my heart.

Barbara

[Anne2345]

I think Anne is talking about the old traditional male role. You know.. the old stereotype that us older folk were raised with. Anne can correct me if I'm wrong.:)


I don't think Anne was talking about all males, but about "macho-ness." However, the rules of the Man's Club are culturally conditioned and change from place to place. There may be one set of rules for rural Tennessee and another for urban Los Angeles or New York. Gordon Gekko was a smooth Wall Street broker but lived by the rules of the Man's Club.

Yes, and yes. For those that have read into my post otherwise, the fault is mine for poor post composition.


We all have our bad moments.

I suffer from waaaaay too many bad moments.


Anne, just because we don't want to be men doesn't mean we have to try and tear men down.

I do not mean to suggest that there are not good men in the world. There are, and there are lots of them. I guess the misunderstanding may come from my attempt, and subsequent complete failure thereof, to be "witty" and "clever" in comparing the rules of Fight Club to male stereotypes. There is a reason that such stereotypes exist, but there are many, many amazing, fantastic, wonderful men around, and I do not believe for one second that there are not.



Anne, this post is no good. Why not consider deleting it?

This post undoubtedly is a bad post, and perhaps I should delete it. And maybe I will. The problem is that if I start deleted my bad posts, I will have very few posts remaining on the forum . . . .




But to be fair, I do think that men behave differently with one another than they do when they are with us. I always took it that men were truly themselves when they were with their mothers, wives, and families, and only put on the macho mask (for those who do this) in the presence of other men.

Obviously, this is not true of all men. But Reine hit the nail on the head with this statement. I have seen it over and over and over again. I've engaged in such displays myself with other guys throughout the years. It happens.


I'm on top around here - don't make me prove it.

Ha! Really??!!! Bring it on! Let's take this outside, just you and me, and settle this thing once and for all like MEN!!!

Sorry. Couldn't help that one . . . .

[JohnH]

1st Rule: You always talk about MAN CLUB, sports, chicks, and the large size of your . . . .
2nd Rule: You ALWAYS talk about MAN CLUB, sports, chicks, and the large size of your . . . .
3rd Rule: If someone questions your MANHOOD, it is time to fight.
4th Rule: Every MAN for himself.
5th Rule: A MAN goes to the bathroom one MAN at a time.
6th Rule: No blood, no foul.
7th Rule: There is no crying in MAN CLUB.
8th Rule: If this is your first night at MAN CLUB, you HAVE to blow something up.
.

9th Rule Hang Truck Nutz on the trailer hitch of your pickup truck. :)

[DaphneGrey]

I love, respect, admire and adore men! So I will stick up for them and start with a few examples.

My father a single parent who not only took care of my two brothers and I but raised two step children from my mothers first marriage. And refused to put his ailing parents in a nursing home, choosing to care for them at home. A selfless decision which pushed his retirement 15 years past the original date. He was a soldier as a young man, a hairdresser, a factory worker and a janitor. Not only the most selfless and generous man I have ever known he was and in many ways still is the toughest. Now in his seventies can still fix, lift, or lug, anything. He has moved back from his home in Florida this past mont to help us through a very difficult time. Never having asked for his help, he just said "you are going to need help and I am coming" I knew better than to argue. When I told him about me about Daphne we had some very rough spots. But in the end he accepted me and supports me.

My Grandfather who was in the first wave of soldiers to land on Omaha Beach in Normandy. 2000 men died that day on that beach in the first 20 minutes! He came home to raise his family and dedicated his life to veterans causes. He is buried in Arlington National Cemetery.

My best friend who by the way is long haired metal head rock musician who grew up with me as boy. Who today takes me for rides on his motorcycle. He is loud, crass, rough around the edges, cusses like a sailor, smokes and loves to yell at the Giants on the big screen at the bar. But he is secure enough in who he is to hang out with me standing next to him hair heels and attitude. In front of all his Macho friends. And I love him to death!

My Son who when he isn't chasing girls or playing music is defending his best friend who happens to be gay. He is also one of the founding members of the LBGT alliance club at his high school. He is also a pyro who likes blowing things up!

I love the men I work with at my job. (all know about me) who yes give each other grief and puff out there chests, and drink beer, and love sports, and fighting about sports. And exaggerating stories. etc. etc..... Because when my wife got sick they went out of their way and dug deep in their pockets to help.

I love when a man treats me like a lady and there are more than a few who are secure enough in there own skin who do.

And the only time I was every really hassled in public it was a man who stood up to the bigots and came to my rescue. A gesture that was just old fashioned chivalry. And frankly it made me a little weak in the knees.

None of the men I know make a sport out of flatulence! But if they did on rare occasions I think I could find it in my heart to let it go.


There are plenty of manly men who are wonderful, intelligent, loyal, tough, dedicated, MEN who are also good listeners, nurturers, caring, generous wonderful people. Who don't cross dress. Being TG doesn't make you better or worse it just makes you you.

As for society and gender roles and stereo types. Yes it is tough and I get it but it is changing and at least in my life. I have come to learn that most people don't really care what you wear, what you do or who you do.

[Frédérique]

As consistent with Fight Club, I have only listed eight rules. But there are sooooo many more. Feel free to cite any rules that SHOULD have been on this list, or COULD have been on this list, or that you just have a problem with . . . .

Has anybody bothered to consider WHY the movie Fight Club was made in the first place? How come nobody makes a film called Transvestite Club? Answer: male stereotyping sells tickets and DVD rentals, neatly dovetailing in with the current polarized atmosphere. Someone wants males to be a certain way, and this is projected in a wanton manner. How many people will flock to see a movie about less-than-100%-masculine males? I would, but consider the source…

I have no “rules” to add to the list, but has anyone noticed the connection between tattoos and grilling these days? :thinking:


Anne, maybe you just grew up in a backward part of the world, or maybe you misunderstood, but where I grew up guys were taught to study hard, to work hard, to be good to their women and children, to be honest, to obey the laws, to be kind--and also to play hard, because playing is fun and it's even more fun when you really go at it. And there was nothing wrong with a bit of culture, exploring and enjoying things like books and films and music. Oh, and also, flatulence wasn't considered to be a manly virtue.
Anne, just because we don't want to be men doesn't mean we have to try and tear men down. It's like this: doctors are great people, but I never wanted to be a doctor. Firefighters are great people, but I never wanted to be a firefighter. Teachers are great people, but I learned pretty quickly in my youth that I didn't want to be a teacher. And most guys are OK, too, even though I never wanted to be one myself. Just because we don't want to be something doesn't mean we have to hate it and misrepresent it and try to destroy it. We can try to appreciate its virtues, even if we don't want to share those virtues ourselves.

To reiterate what I wrote above, a “standard” of masculinity is being projected into people’s lives like a form of propaganda, and people buy into it. This affects our little neck of the woods in profound ways, and it accounts for most of the intolerance we face in the real world. Oh, there are plenty of fine men out there who are kind to women, listen to what others have to say, and work hard to be pillars of the community. There are also plenty of men, in ALL parts of the world, who are brutish, obnoxious, intolerant, and ignorant. To be fair, I don’t bump into many of the latter in the RW, mainly because I don’t associate with “pack” males, but I know they’re out there….

There is a whole “culture” in this country dedicated to noise and stupidity. If I was a manly male, I wouldn’t even notice it, but, over on this side of the gender equation, one tends to be appalled at typical male behavior. I recognize nice gentlemen when I see them or meet them, for they are like distant cousins to US. However, most males look at you as some kind of confrontational test, and only the manly one deserves to survive – they travel in groups, but I travel alone. Do you think a group of typical men would embrace my queerness? Even if you insert your beloved doctors, teachers, and firefighters (my father was a fireman) into the equation, males will inevitably bond together and seek out weakness – this is a natural, yet unfortunate circumstance of evolution, which is painfully slow and not keeping up with ideas of tolerance…

A thread like this will generate comments about male bashing, but what is really going on is this – a person, in this case a MtF crossdresser, is making a declaration along the lines of, “I’m NOT going to be like you, not now, not ever,” even though the world insists that typical male behavior is wonderful. Playing hard is fun? Yeah – it’s completely pointless, too. The late, great George Carlin once described male thinking quite succinctly. A group of males will be “playing hard,” and one of them will inevitably say, “You know, I really LOVE you guys!” followed by, “But I’m not queer.” After that, the poor guy has to go out and prove he’s a man by hunting down and beating-up queers, just to show everyone how masculine he is. Since we CD, TG, and cisgender types fall under the “queer” umbrella, I think we have a right to point out the injustice going on all around us. I don’t know about you, but I would hate to be wearing a dress amongst a group of typical males who had gathered to “exercise” their masculinity – would I come out of that situation alive?
:straightface:

[Tara D. Rose]

I love, respect, admire and adore men! So I will stick up for them and start with a few examples.

My father a single parent who not only took care of my two brothers and I but raised two step children from my mothers first marriage. And refused to put his ailing parents in a nursing home, choosing to care for them at home. A selfless decision which pushed his retirement 15 years past the original date. He was a soldier as a young man, a hairdresser, a factory worker and a janitor. Not only the most selfless and generous man I have ever known he was and in many ways still is the toughest. Now in his seventies can still fix, lift, or lug, anything. He has moved back from his home in Florida this past mont to help us through a very difficult time. Never having asked for his help, he just said "you are going to need help and I am coming" I knew better than to argue. When I told him about me about Daphne we had some very rough spots. But in the end he accepted me and supports me.

My Grandfather who was in the first wave of soldiers to land on Omaha Beach in Normandy. 2000 men died that day on that beach in the first 20 minutes! He came home to raise his family and dedicated his life to veterans causes. He is buried in Arlington National Cemetery.

My best friend who by the way is long haired metal head rock musician who grew up with me as boy. Who today takes me for rides on his motorcycle. He is loud, crass, rough around the edges, cusses like a sailor, smokes and loves to yell at the Giants on the big screen at the bar. But he is secure enough in who he is to hang out with me standing next to him hair heels and attitude. In front of all his Macho friends. And I love him to death!

My Son who when he isn't chasing girls or playing music is defending his best friend who happens to be gay. He is also one of the founding members of the LBGT alliance club at his high school. He is also a pyro who likes blowing things up!

I love the men I work with at my job. (all know about me) who yes give each other grief and puff out there chests, and drink beer, and love sports, and fighting about sports. And exaggerating stories. etc. etc..... Because when my wife got sick they went out of their way and dug deep in their pockets to help.

I love when a man treats me like a lady and there are more than a few who are secure enough in there own skin who do.

And the only time I was every really hassled in public it was a man who stood up to the bigots and came to my rescue. A gesture that was just old fashioned chivalry. And frankly it made me a little weak in the knees.

None of the men I know make a sport out of flatulence! But if they did on rare occasions I think I could find it in my heart to let it go.


There are plenty of manly men who are wonderful, intelligent, loyal, tough, dedicated, MEN who are also good listeners, nurturers, caring, generous wonderful people. Who don't cross dress. Being TG doesn't make you better or worse it just makes you you.

As for society and gender roles and stereo types. Yes it is tough and I get it but it is changing and at least in my life. I have come to learn that most people don't really care what you wear, what you do or who you do.

Amen to this. I loved reading this one.

[Rebecca Star]

The Rules of Man Club:

1st Rule: You always talk about MAN CLUB, sports, chicks, and the large size of your . . . .
2nd Rule: You ALWAYS talk about MAN CLUB, sports, chicks, and the large size of your . . . .
3rd Rule: If someone questions your MANHOOD, it is time to fight.
4th Rule: Every MAN for himself.
5th Rule: A MAN goes to the bathroom one MAN at a time.
6th Rule: No blood, no foul.
7th Rule: There is no crying in MAN CLUB.
8th Rule: If this is your first night at MAN CLUB, you HAVE to blow something up.


I've got a male (41 years old) aquantance who is all that, personified. What makes it even worse, he's a CUB - cashed up bogan. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cashed_up_bogan

These macho, got to prove I'm a man (whatever that means) guys are still around. Albeit their numbers are thankfully decreasing.

[Wildaboutheels]

Any rules, especially "subjective" or silly ones are only going to be followed by people worried about "fitting in".

Which basically means "most" of the population.

We ALL have the ability to CHOOSE our own course/s, at least once we leave the nest.

[Foxglove]

To reiterate what I wrote above, a “standard” of masculinity is being projected into people’s lives like a form of propaganda, and people buy into it. This affects our little neck of the woods in profound ways, and it accounts for most of the intolerance we face in the real world. Oh, there are plenty of fine men out there who are kind to women, listen to what others have to say, and work hard to be pillars of the community. There are also plenty of men, in ALL parts of the world, who are brutish, obnoxious, intolerant, and ignorant. To be fair, I don’t bump into many of the latter in the RW, mainly because I don’t associate with “pack” males, but I know they’re out there….

There is a whole “culture” in this country dedicated to noise and stupidity. If I was a manly male, I wouldn’t even notice it, but, over on this side of the gender equation, one tends to be appalled at typical male behavior. I recognize nice gentlemen when I see them or meet them, for they are like distant cousins to US. However, most males look at you as some kind of confrontational test, and only the manly one deserves to survive – they travel in groups, but I travel alone. Do you think a group of typical men would embrace my queerness? Even if you insert your beloved doctors, teachers, and firefighters (my father was a fireman) into the equation, males will inevitably bond together and seek out weakness – this is a natural, yet unfortunate circumstance of evolution, which is painfully slow and not keeping up with ideas of tolerance…

A thread like this will generate comments about male bashing, but what is really going on is this – a person, in this case a MtF crossdresser, is making a declaration along the lines of, “I’m NOT going to be like you, not now, not ever,” even though the world insists that typical male behavior is wonderful. Playing hard is fun? Yeah – it’s completely pointless, too. The late, great George Carlin once described male thinking quite succinctly. A group of males will be “playing hard,” and one of them will inevitably say, “You know, I really LOVE you guys!” followed by, “But I’m not queer.” After that, the poor guy has to go out and prove he’s a man by hunting down and beating-up queers, just to show everyone how masculine he is. Since we CD, TG, and cisgender types fall under the “queer” umbrella, I think we have a right to point out the injustice going on all around us. I don’t know about you, but I would hate to be wearing a dress amongst a group of typical males who had gathered to “exercise” their masculinity – would I come out of that situation alive?
:straightface:

Freddy, I can't believe that you've written this in reply to my post. You say that this thread is going to generate complaints about "male-bashing". Yes, it will, Freddy, because that's precisely what your post is--UNLESS: unless you can here and now provide us with scientific studies that show that your definition of a "typical male" is in fact typical. If you have no hard proof that your definition of "typical" is in fact typical, then this post is nothing but stereotyping and generalizing.

You've said this, Freddy:

A thread like this will generate comments about male bashing, but what is really going on is this – a person, in this case a MtF crossdresser, is making a declaration along the lines of, “I’m NOT going to be like you, not now, not ever,” even though the world insists that typical male behavior is wonderful.

And no, Freddy, that's not what's going on here. The OP was not saying, "I'm not going to be like you." She was saying, "I'm not going to be like you because you're a lot of brutes." That's something different. I personally will say to every single person on Planet Earth, "I'm not going to be like you." Nothing wrong with that. And I will say to every brute on Planet Earth, "I'm not going to be like you." Nothing wrong with that, either. But when I try to stereotype a whole group of people as brutes, there's a lot wrong with that.

Freddy, over my lifetime men have come more and more to be portrayed very negatively. I can give you an example of why that is: now we all know that there's lots and lots of domestic violence. Most of the statistics I have seen come from the US, and the studies I've seen consistently show that between 10-12% of American men will at some stage hit their SO. (These studies also show that the same number of women will at some stage hit their SO, but we'll set that aside for now.)

But note that this 10-12% includes men who once in their life lose it and hit the wife. That is, they're not serial wife beaters. One study I saw estimated that the level of serious domestic violence amounted to 0.3% of all incidents of violence. But set that aside, too: let's call 10-12% of American men "wife-beaters". It still means that the overwhelming majority of American men never once in their lives lay a hand on the woman. This is a simple fact that is never, never, never mentioned when people are talking about domestic violence. People often try to suggest that wife-beaters are typical. In fact a wife-beater, in the western world at least, is highly atypical.

This why men are seen so negatively. Because we choose the worst of them and try to suggest that they're typical of the whole sex. We don't do this with women, we don't do this with ethnic minorities, we don't do it with religious denominations or any other group. To do so would be considered bigotry. Except in the case of men. This is why, Freddy, when you start talking about "typical men", I say to you, "Prove it!" Because all my life I've heard talk about "typical men", and I know where this talk comes from.

As far as saying, "I love you guys!", sorry, I like George Carlin, but he doesn't get the last word on everything. Once upon a time I was following a soccer team. I've never been into soccer much, but this was a fabulous team, really fun to watch. And one day I said to a couple of neighbours, "I love those guys!" I didn't have to add, "But I'm not gay!" They just smiled. They loved them, too.

And do you know who they were, Freddy? A couple of young guys, married, a couple of kids each, working guys, not highly educated. They were "typical guys". "Typical" of the type I've always known. You see, it's easy to come up with definitions. It depends on what you're looking for. And I'll tell you this, Freddy: I wouldn't have been afraid to put on a dress in front of them. They probably would have laughed--but no way would they have ever considered beating me up.

Finally, a small point: you've said that "playing is pointless". That statement is offensive to me. I like to play. I've done a lot of it in my life. It makes life enjoyable, and I don't think there's any reason why life shouldn't be enjoyable. I don't like people telling me that a good bit of my life has been pointless. I'll decide for myself, if you don't mind. I'm not going to be like you. I'm going to be me.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Marleena]

IDK I only see this thread as a form of expression of non comformity. I don't see Anne as doing or saying anything to purposely hurt anybody. I only know her as being kind. The movie was fiction.

But I can tell you those stereotypical males did exist ( I was one of them in the late sixties along with my friends) and they do exist today to some extent.

There are good and bad people out there of different sexes and genders.

I should add that peer pressure can make people do or say things they normally would not do.

[Vanessa5]

There are rules?!? Who made them? This is the first I've heard about them! Of course I come from more of an anarchist type of background so rules really mean nothing to me. Pushing the proverbial boundaries is more my cup of tea. Why shouldn't I cry? Why not have feelings? Why be machismo? Stereotypes are just a form of ignorance.

[Veronica27]

When I read Anne's essay, I saw a semi-humorous, but somewhat heartfelt diatribe about the male psyche, that was intended to stir up some controversial banter by a group of genetic males who have essentially foresaken most of their manhood in order to express what they believe is a more feminine approach to life. Like any humour, the essay relied heavily on exaggeration, but like many heartfelt sentiments displayed much of the stereotypical opinion that is common to such outbursts.

I am a man who enjoys my manhood, but throughout most of my life I have been a fairly independant thinker. I concentrate on my own interests in life, some of which are squarely in the realm of typical male interest, and some of which are outside of mainstream thinking. For example, I love baseball and played it until I was almost 60, have a lifelong obsession with trains and model railroading, and have a large collection of images and models of vintage automobiles. These are all typical male interests. On the other hand, I have no interest in fishing, hunting, guns, football, all of which the typical male is expected to enjoy. Conversely, there are activities that I enjoy, that the stereotypical male tries to avoid, such as opera, and so-called chic flicks, and of course crossdressing.

I have often written that for me crossdressing is a form of escape from the demands of masculinity, but that is in no way meant as a condemnation of manhood, nor is it meant that I dislike being male. By demands, I refer to those expectations of our culture that a man should always be steadfast, in control of his emotions and somewhat aggressive and competetive in his approach to daily life and his responsiblities. I do not consider such things as were discussed in Anne's rules as serious expectations as I have no difficulty avoiding that type of behaviour or any of the male interests that I tend to dislike. I enjoy a degree of aggression and competition, but it is nice to take a break from it now and then.

When I read the thread on misandry, I wrote that I did not see very much of it on the forum, but this thread makes me rethink that opinion. Technically, it is not misandry because it is not expressed by a woman, but an interesting question is can a man be guilty of misandry when he is seeing, feeling or thinking of himself as a woman? One man's joke can be another man's hurt. Very few men are the complete asses that are depicted by Anne's "rules", but on the other hand, not all women are the angelic image that we tend to project onto the female, and attempt to emulate. A thread of this nature encourages an outpouring of those misandrous feelings by many who may see their transgenderedness as elevating them to a position of superiority over the mere male.

Annabelle Larouse, in her postings on this thread, has provided an excellent viewpoint on this topic, that should be read and absorbed by all members.

Veronica

[Frédérique]

Freddy, I can't believe that you've written this in reply to my post. You say that this thread is going to generate complaints about "male-bashing". Yes, it will, Freddy, because that's precisely what your post is--UNLESS: unless you can here and now provide us with scientific studies that show that your definition of a "typical male" is in fact typical. If you have no hard proof that your definition of "typical" is in fact typical, then this post is nothing but stereotyping and generalizing.

I shouldn't reply to this, but I think I will, anyway...:doh:

I don’t what it’s like in Ireland, but here in America “typical” male behavior is out there for all to see, 24/7. After I submitted that post I was watching the baseball game on TV with my sister, and I took note of how many “typical” male references appeared on-screen within half an hour. Of course, we are being fed “messages” geared towards people who worship beer, cars, a lazy attitude towards personal grooming, and a fetishistic approach to sports memorabilia, so please keep that in mind. I counted 25 examples of manly male in 30 minutes – I didn’t see one man who was talking intelligently, or philosophically, or scientifically, nor did I come across a man who was wearing a real shirt in an attempt to look civilized, for crying out loud. When this is what is being shown to the viewing public, and the children of the viewing public, ad nauseum, I am left to assume that this is being put forth as correct male behavior in an attempt to ingrain this unfortunate propaganda. It affects US...

This is highly off-topic, and, quite frankly, I don’t know why you’re getting so upset at something that exists, can be seen (readily) in real life, if you would only look, and should be obvious to anyone who covets their brain cells. There’s no need to speak down to me from your mountain-top, my dear – if you’re in this chosen place away from the madding, masculine crowd, it’s nice to look back and see what some MtF crossdressers have managed to distance themselves from – do you really expect me to look at typical males and say, “Gee, I wish I was just like you...” and ditch this pretense of looking and perhaps feeling extremely un-masculine? I’ll be damned if I’m going to drop my attitudes just to please someone. You aren't looking at how things ARE, from OUR perspective, and this amounts to blindness...

I get sick and tired of people on this site treating me like a young innocent – I wouldn’t bother commenting on something unless I had something to say about it, and, in this case, typical male behavior is something I am at odds with. The fact that I’m a MtF crossdresser makes it so. It is part and parcel of my very existence, the polar opposite of EVERYTHING I cherish. If you think for a minute that I’m inexperienced in the experience department, you’re doing me a gross injustice, my friend...


Finally, a small point: you've said that "playing is pointless". That statement is offensive to me. I like to play. I've done a lot of it in my life. It makes life enjoyable, and I don't think there's any reason why life shouldn't be enjoyable. I don't like people telling me that a good bit of my life has been pointless. I'll decide for myself, if you don't mind. I'm not going to be like you. I'm going to be me.

Keep playing. I don’t care. I happen to play at being a girl – can you DIG it? :straightface:

[Jacqueline Winona]

I don't know, Frederique, I like baseball, watch it all the time, don't really think or care about "manly-manisms" or anything else, and definitely don't feel like anyone is brainwashing me into believing that I should act a certain way. i watch for the same reason I do anything else, it's something I enjoy doing. And it doesn't affect anything about my outlook on others, I still feel the same way about eveyrone I know after watching a game or two.
As for rules, all I have to say is rules, schmules. :)

[Foxglove]

I don’t what it’s like in Ireland, but here in America “typical” male behavior is out there for all to see, 24/7. After I submitted that post I was watching the baseball game on TV with my sister, and I took note of how many “typical” male references appeared on-screen within half an hour. Of course, we are being fed “messages” geared towards people who worship beer, cars, a lazy attitude towards personal grooming, and a fetishistic approach to sports memorabilia, so please keep that in mind. I counted 25 examples of manly male in 30 minutes – I didn’t see one man who was talking intelligently, or philosophically, or scientifically, nor did I come across a man who was wearing a real shirt in an attempt to look civilized, for crying out loud. When this is what is being shown to the viewing public, and the children of the viewing public, ad nauseum, I am left to assume that this is being put forth as correct male behavior in an attempt to ingrain this unfortunate propaganda. It affects US...

Freddy, I think your argument here is extremely confused. First of all, you're watching a baseball game, and you're surprised that nobody's talking "intelligently or philosophically or scientifically"? Well, some sports commentators are more intelligent than others, but they're not there to talk about philosophy or science. We need to remember the context. That would be like going to church and later complaining, "That guy didn't say a thing about Italian Renaissance art! What a philistine!"

You need to remember context. E.g., I almost never go into a bar. This is because I don't like the sort of conversation that people carry on in them. People drinking in bars generally are interested in light-hearted banter, and whereas I don't think there's anything wrong with that, it's just not me. I can take about an hour of that, and then I start getting very restless. But I don't condemn people for being a bit superficial in bars. That's what they're there for. If you want to talk to them on a more serious level, most of them will do it. Just not there. Catch them somewhere else and at some other time. So if you're expecting people to be intelligent, philosophical and scientific at baseball games, I think your expectations are a bit out of place.

I myself am quite different when I'm at a rugby match than when I'm at home tucked into some of my favorite reading. I'd go along with what Janice has to say:


I don't know, Frederique, I like baseball, watch it all the time, don't really think or care about "manly-manisms" or anything else, and definitely don't feel like anyone is brainwashing me into believing that I should act a certain way. i watch for the same reason I do anything else, it's something I enjoy doing. And it doesn't affect anything about my outlook on others, I still feel the same way about eveyrone I know after watching a game or two.
As for rules, all I have to say is rules, schmules. :)

When I'm at a match, I'm there for a different purpose than when I'm at my reading. I like to think of myself as an "intelligent" sports fan, while at the same time recognizing that being intelligent about rugby is a very different thing from being intelligent about super-string theory or Stoic ethics. We need to remember context.

And then you're complaining about the image of "correct male behaviour" that the media are bombarding the viewing public with. Join the club. Who doesn't complain about the media and advertising? It's the main reason I myself don't watch TV or listen to the radio. But just because the media are giving us an image of their preferred type of citizen, it doesn't mean that the average citizen actually fits that mold. Lots of people complain that the media aim their wares at the "lowest common denominator". If the media don't show people respect, blame the media. And above all, don't assume that the typical citizen is what the media want him/her to be.




This is highly off-topic, and, quite frankly, I don’t know why you’re getting so upset at something that exists, can be seen (readily) in real life, if you would only look, and should be obvious to anyone who covets their brain cells.

I'm not "getting upset about what exists". Nobody's denying that there are brutish men out there. What I'm getting upset about is your claim that such men are typical--a claim that you haven't upheld, apart from having reported about a baseball game on TV. And Freddy, don't start talking to me about my "brain cells". This isn't the way friends talk to each other.


There’s no need to speak down to me from your mountain-top, my dear – if you’re in this chosen place away from the madding, masculine crowd,

I'm not speaking from any mountain-top. I may have been at one time, given that I grew up in a professional background. But I haven't lived my adult life in a professional background. I've been in shops and streets and on work sites in four different countries in my time. And for someone from a professional background, I've had a fair bit of contact with "typical" men, working-class men who are undoubtedly the most maligned segment of the male population.

If I started out with any prejudices against working-class guys, which I probably did, given my background, I quickly lost them once I came into contact with such guys. One thing you learn is that just because a guy doesn't have much education doesn't mean he hasn't got any brains. And what you also learn is that not many of them fit into the brutish, beer-swilling, swaggering, blustering stereotype that's often attached to them. There's nothing like meeting real people to help you drop the stereotypes you've grown up with.


it’s nice to look back and see what some MtF crossdressers have managed to distance themselves from – do you really expect me to look at typical males and say, “Gee, I wish I was just like you...” and ditch this pretense of looking and perhaps feeling extremely un-masculine? I’ll be damned if I’m going to drop my attitudes just to please someone.
You're free to distance yourself from anything you like, Freddy. But when you start claiming that a certain thing is "typical" of its class, that's what you need to justify, and that's not what you're doing. You're simply asserting that it's so. That assertion can be challenged. That's what I'm doing.


You aren't looking at how things ARE, from OUR perspective, and this amounts to blindness...

I think this is the crux of the whole problem right here. When you say "from OUR perspective", I assume you're talking about a TG perspective. I'm not blind, Freddy. I recognize that cisgender people don't understand us. That's not surprising, given that we have so much trouble understanding ourselves. But that doesn't mean that cisgender people are necessarily brutish. In fact they can be very decent people. They simply have trouble understanding something that's outside their own experience. Look at the GG's on this forum. Very nice women. But they have a hard time understanding us. Will we blame them for that? Will we even be surprised at that?

Are there brutish cis-guys who would beat the stuffing out of a T-girl, given the opportunity? Of course there are. But to say that is a very different thing from saying that such guys are typical of cis-guys. We transpeople have a different perspective of the world. But we shouldn't let that affect our view of cis-people. Their failure to understand us doesn't make brutes of them. Let's wait and see how each individual treats us before we decide what sort of person he/she is.




I get sick and tired of people on this site treating me like a young innocent – I wouldn’t bother commenting on something unless I had something to say about it, and, in this case, typical male behavior is something I am at odds with. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Not everybody on this site treats you as a "young innocent", Freddy. In fact, most people on this site treat you with a lot of respect. It's true, you do have opponents, and as I told you myself recently in a PM, I think your opponents are extremely unfair to you. On this thread, unlike your opponents, I'm not throwing out cheap insults at you. I'm challenging your views because I think they're wrong. As long as we don't start insulting each other, that's OK, because that's what forums are for.

You say that "typical male behavior" is something you're at odds with. Well, so am I. So is everybody here. We're all trans in one form or another. But to say we're different from other men doesn't make those other men brutes. The question on this thread is, what is "typical male behavior"? You have one view of it, a view that I myself believe is mistaken.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Foxglove]

Hello, People.

At this point I'd like to apologize publicly to Anne for a couple of comments I made in my first post on this thread. As everyone who's followed this thread knows, I disagreed strongly with certain things that were said here. But there are proper ways of expressing disagreement, and in my first post, in a couple of instances, I didn't go about it properly--in particular, where I suggested that Anne might want to delete her OP.

Anne, of course, like any other member, has every right to post as often as she wishes. Her posts are generally very popular, and rightly so, because she expresses lots of feelings that lots of us have had at one time or another. I myself enjoy her posts as much as anybody. This was the first time I took exception to something that she said. Now she and I have sorted this out between us by PM, and I'm glad that we have, but I did want to get this matter on the public record.

I'd just like to re-iterate that anti-male sentiments expressed on this forum can be offensive to some of our members who identify as male. This I know because some of them have posted to this effect on the forum, while some have discussed the matter with me in PM's. I would sincerely urge people to remember that we are all trans here in one way or another, and I believe that everybody should be welcome and should be made to feel at home here.

That said, I again express my apologies to Anne.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Thera Home]

9th Rule Hang Truck Nutz on the trailer hitch of your pickup truck. :)

John
Too Funny, reminds me of a time I was in parking lot once and saw this truck that was just rigged up and all big and bad with a set of these and it parked over two cars (exaggerated a little....sorry) and then this little guy gets out. My kids went haywire. Quality family time:heehee:

Thera

[daarleane]

"go outside and play"- I heard that all the time while growing up, just like the lass from MN. I don't think it had anything to do with manhood. I think it had more to do with getting out of Mama's way. She had a lot of work to do with no conveniences at that time. Besides, for me that going out and exploring the fields and woods and learning about the world that surrounded me. It also meant going out with friends and playing games like baseball on an open lot with a taped up ball. The men in my life were good men, honest and hard working. They taught me the value of a job well done and honesty. I am glad that I tried to emulate these men, even though I like to wear women"s clothes and enjoy the softness and warmth of it, I realize that our society could not exist without these kinds of men. Women rely on them to provide life"s necessities. Most men are not of the fight club mentality any more than they are "Dirty Harry". They love and respect their families and some of the men even die for their country or their families./sorry, if this long but I just had to complete the thought.

[Marleena]

"The men in my life were good men, honest and hard working. They taught me the value of a job well done and honesty. I am glad that I tried to emulate these men, even though I like to wear women"s clothes and enjoy the softness and warmth of it, I realize that our society could not exist without these kinds of men. Women rely on them to provide life"s necessities. Most men are not of the fight club mentality any more than they are "Dirty Harry". They love and respect their families and some of the men even die for their country or their families./sorry, if this long but I just had to complete the thought.

I love this part of your post. It is so true.:)

Even if men were/are part of the man club when they are "with the boys" when they find their soul mate they are all of the above.:) Family will come first!

[Stephenie S]

Idk first off let me say Fight Club is one of the best movies of all time. I use to want to look exactly like bradd pitt in that movie. Now with that out of the way im all for the man rules when im not Cassandra granted theres always a lil fem side in everything i do. But most days im the manliest man u can meet. I weightlift, i train in combat full contact sports. And u better believe if u step up to me or my wife im knocking u out lol. I dont talk about how big my stuff is but i do like to blow things up on occasion. Now when im cding i obviously dont follow the man rules but again u mess with me or wife when im out as cassandra my heels are comin-g off and im throwing down and will make u pay for my beautiful pink nails u broke lol

Geeze Casandra, a little less testosterone please. I don't wanna get any on me, you know what I mean?

What do you mean you don't talk about how big your stuff is? That's ALL you talk about, LOL.

Stephie


Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I've got to say that I see the world of men way differently than you do. Around me and those like me, they are well behaved. They even put napkins on their laps when they eat. And they chew their food with their mouths closed.

They talk about anything that I want to talk about: politics, philosophy, (gossip about mutual friends :o), kids, hobbies, the arts, travel, food, painful moments in their lives. Some of them like to cook and collect stuff. And I've even seen one of two of them cry.

Yeah. You can always tell a gentleman. He's the one who takes the dishes out of the sink before he pees in it.

Well it's kinda hard to criticize typical male behavior on a forum populated by men. You might get a completely different reaction on a women's forum.

Stephie

[Eryn]

9th Rule Hang Truck Nutz on the trailer hitch of your pickup truck. :)

Every time I see those I am soooo tempted to sneak up with a pair of sheet metal shears and give that truck a quick neutering, leaving just enough behind to make it obvious what happened.

Of course, I'd never actually do that, but it's a pleasant thought! :)

[Leanne2]

Anne,
I'm guessing that you wish you had been born female. But if you had, would you feel differently about the "man" rules? My GG wife wants men to be men. And I'm glad she doesn't want to go on T and grow a beard. Maybe you are upset because you are stuck with the wrong set of rules. How would you feel about all of this if you were born into and playing for the other team? Leanne

[Rebecca Star]

9th Rule Hang Truck Nutz on the trailer hitch of your pickup truck. :)

OK, what are "Truck Nutz"... Being in Australia, I have no idea what your talking about? :)

[Tracii G]

Truck nutz are plastic or metal bull testicles you hang off the trailer hitch.
I find it pretty redneck but there are a lot of those type around here.
Guys are OK just have funny rules I don't wish to live by.
The statement that guys act different around women is very true thanks ReineD.
Myself I'm rough around the edges sometimes but always compassionate and caring towards women.Treated the ones I was married to too well I guess and they took advantage of my kindness and understanding.
I had my macho phase like any man trying to prove something to myself and to society I guess.My X's didn't like the fact I would talk a problem out with them and not TELL them hey this is the way things are going to be you better like it, now go make me some biscuits woman.

Anne I love your posts BTW they always make me think and delve into ideas like this.

[Eryn]

OK, what are "Truck Nutz"... Being in Australia, I have no idea what your talking about? :)

Figuring out what someone from another region is talking about is one of the places where the Internet excels. This will give you more than you want to know:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=truck+nutz

[LilSissyStevie]

Are you guys trying to tell me that those boys on Lizard Lick Towing aren't the epitome of manliness? I guess I need new role models.

[busker]

I think Anne is talking about the old traditional male role. You know.. the old stereotype that us older folk were raised with. Anne can correct me if I'm wrong.:)

No offense to you or Anne, but having just turned 69 (one of those "older folk") I was never raised with anything like the "rules" by my parents. sounds like someone from 1930's Hell's Kitchen. I grew up surrounded by books, music, a fair amount of extended friendly family, movies,museums,and a reasonable amount of friends my own age. I was in sports during HS but when I graduated that was that. The age of enlightenment had settled upon me. When I was in the army I had a time of it in basic, because I didn't bayonet the sandman hard enough, I didn't strangle my "opponent" in judo training, I almost shot my instructor in rifle training because guns weren't my thing. The next 40 years were devoted to good things, avoiding jerks and "manly men" . It is the path I chose despite what society might have tried to push me towards.

[Marissa]

Marleena and busker,

I don't think its a time period or age thing, even though way back in the day, being gay was ok. I'm talking Roman and other periods where men spent time with men. Years go by and WOW, what are you???? Gay???? come on...be a MAN ;)

I think its really about what your surroundings are as you grow up..and who you surround yourself with as an adult.

Every Friday after work, I join my buddy (who I recently shared my cding ventures with via pics) to oggle the over pushed-up breasted young ladies at a watering hole. Yes, I'm attracted to them but I don't really feel that I have to pull my MAN CARD out and make snide remarks. I put myself in that situation so yes, I walk right into the Man Club, if you will.

I grew up with many brothers so being the Guy was what was expected. Out of so many brothers, I'm sure there is one more at least that has thoughts like me or is really gay. But no one says anything or questions it since its all about the Man Club as Anne put it.

Think I want to give up my membership card and looks towards the Girls Club :)