Conformity

[Veronica27]

Is conformity as bad as we make it out to be? Man is a social animal which means he forms in groups where each member shares certain common interests and needs. This can be as small as two best friends all the way up to the population of an entire country, or even collection of countries. Along the way it includes families, neighbourhoods, clubs, religious organizations, companies, cities and so on. Regardless of the size of the group, it will inevitably lead to the establishment of rules; call them ground rules if you like; which enable the continuation of that group for the benefit of all its members. We see this in the behaviour of many animals that form into large groups for their mutual protection and survival. Sometimes the group is put together by man, such as a herd of cattle, but nonetheless, they formulate their own rules in the same manner as if they were a wild herd. Certain members will become dominant and will determine many of the rules and what will take place. Just spend some time observing said herd of cattle, a murmuration of starlings or a gaggle of geese and you will see this concept play out.

What we are seeing here is conformity to group think. There are always a few renegades who for whatever reason will drift off course and do their own thing for a while, but for the most part, they usually follow the herd most of the time, even if somewhat reluctantly, because that is where safety resides. In human terms, we are expected to conform to the wishes of our group(s) whether it be removing our hat in church or purchasing our clothing from the men's department if we are genetically male. Crossdressers are renegades who do not necessarily conform to the rules, but the ironic aspect of this is that we then form our own group which in turn begins to establish rules as it attempts to gain recognition and its place in society. The more dominant members attempt to impose conformity with the rules on its members about various issues, but as the group consists of renegades, this can be difficult. We see it on this forum, as over the years the group think is that we exist under one umbrella, and should seek legislative acceptance through political activism. This approach runs into the arguments of those who question the basis of the various designations, and is extremely difficult to impose because of the extreme diversity off the group that the leaders are attempting to unite. We are renegades within a group of renegades, which is not conducive to cohesion.

Other individuals can be nonconformists on issues other than crossdressing, but it seldom involves the same extent of nonconformity as crossdressing. For the most part they remain members of the primary group in all matters except those relating to their special interest. However, the crossdressing renegades tend to distance themselves from the primary group by describing themselves as being different in much more than a mere interest or activity. We see this emphasized on this forum every day, with our descriptions of our dual nature, our transgenderedness, our special gift and so on. We then further emphasize our differences by showing our disgust with many of the rules that we are breaking, and generally leaving somewhat of an elitist view of ourselves to any non-crossdressers who might happen by.

Some individuals have genuine gender concerns leaving them feeling that their minds are not in conformity with their physical being. However, for others, I sometimes find myself wondering if this concept, which we have come to call transgendered, is in fact a justification for being renegades from society in ways that are so distant from main stream thinking. They may be so uncomfortable with their degree of nonconformity, that they have a need to seek conformity within their smaller group. Are people confusing desires to feel and express femininity, with a desire or need to be a woman? Are they attempting to explain away a curiosity about and intense interest in women (not necessarily just sexual) by their male self, by claims that they were born to be this way because it sounds less perverse than their real reason?

So just what is it that we are not conforming to in the first place. Cultural rules say that men should dress in a certain way, and women should dress in a certain different way. There are some other gender related rules, but we can rebel against most of these without arousing such intense feelings. The rules of dress consist of certain requirements and certain allowances. For some occasions, we are expected to maintain a required standard which is quite different for each sex. However, there is a marked similarity in the allowances for more casual situations. Those allowances bear a marked degree of similarity to the male requirements, but simply less formal. It is only natural then, that men would develop a much stronger curiosity about the female presentation, particularly given that male sexual attraction is much more visually oriented and drawn to the physical aspects of the opposite sex than is the case with women. But this all tends to sound so perverted to our cultural sensitivities (which themselves have become somewhat perverse) that we need excuses for our explorations and in so doing, further alienate ourselves from the mainstream.

Conformity can be a useful tool for any group, large or small, so long as we recognize the need to be individualistic from time to time on matters of lesser importance such as what we are wearing. We do ourselves a disservice by our male bashing, our criticisms of the rules and our complaints about not being accepted by spouses and society. We should ask ourselves if we are being honest about why we crossdress instead of hiding behind excuses, whatever they may be.

Veronica

[Kate Simmons]

I'm not sure that conformity is the answer my friend. You are never going to please everyone regardless of what you do. It really boils down to being comfortable with who we are as a person, regardless of what the "herd" does. I have to be my own person in any case. :)

[STACY B]

The whole problem is when you are different than the HERD ,,,You must find YOUR HERD ,,, Thats the main issue , ALL the chix that dress an go out or have alot of issues are trying to fit in there OLD HERD ,,, No,,,No,,,No,,, that herd will reject you ,,Cuz you are not conforming to there rules ,,If ya wanna play by a different set of rules ya gotta change the GAME !

[Marleena]

Lately I see a lot of arguing or debating for nothing. Who gives a crap why an MTF wants to dress like, look like, or try to be a woman? It is what is.

We are driven to do so for different reasons. Nobody knows why.

When we do the above we are no longer seen as conforming, that's it. We just all need to do our own thing. If somebody has the right way to go about it let me know! I think it's all personal choice.

[KellyJameson]

Conformity becomes a problem if it violates ones personal boundaries.

There are identity boundaries, physical boundaries, intellectual boundaries, moral boundaries, ect...in all cases it is an affront to the self when they are violated.

Most people are disgusted by child abuse and witnessing it is a violation of their boundaries so they are penetrated (violated) by the experience morally and otherwise.

Conformity becomes a problem when you compromise your own sense of self by violating your own boundaries or by not having any boundaries (limits) in place so
do not exist as a person only as a reflection of others so look toward others and or use others to find and fill what is missing inside which is and creates disease.

Identity is formed by the relationship between our nature (our natural response) and nuture (how our natural response responds to the external) and this is beyond the control of the person who is being formed so our identities are initially handed to us in that we adopt them subconsciously so they are not consciously choosen.

When (who we are but have not choosen to be) comes into conflict with the expectations placed on us to be what we are not you experience this as a violation of boundaries on every level so you are relentlessly under attack by all other people (the social group one lives within) forced to choose between two conflicting realities (truth as expectations) so you are placed in a position of having to adopt the insane (group think) by suspending your own belief of what you think is true, if this is related to gender identity you experience dysphoria.

Group think only appears insane when you are not able to be a part of it otherwise it appears sane (normal as being natural to you)

Conformity and Non-conformity is the tension between conflicting realities as defined by the relationship individuals have with other individuals who have formed a collective (group) and their sense of truth.

We sometimes argue because our reality (sense of truth) is threatened.

Conformity does not feel like conformity when it is natural (even if it is for unnatural reasons such as being without identity "without boundaries") to that person so they enter willingly into participation with the group so you conform without being a conformist. Cults look for people without identity because they are easy to mold and control.

Working together for the common good should not violate the individuals sense of self represented by their boundaries

When your boundaries are in place you own yourself completely because you know yourself and do not need others to define you, you are autonomous so have moved
beyond childhood in that you do not look toward others to define or create yourself. You feel solid and that you have substance instead of adrift and at the mercy of your environment.

There are two ways to relate to other people, as a child or as an adult but they have nothing to do with age and everything to do with ones state of mind.

Conformity can threaten personal growth from the child to the adult because it can support unhealthy psychological dependency on others exposing them to manipulation and exploitation by the group even when it is only a group of one.

Our relationship with others will either keep us childlike (emotionally dependant experienced as scarcity, "not enough of" " fear of losing ") or help us to move toward adulthood (emotionally autonomous experienced as abundance, "I can meet my needs because I have capacities and abilities i.e. personal power")

Everything happening in the human sphere all over the planet comes down to the relationship people have with themselves that is shaped by all the other relationships people are having with themselves.

We either make each other sick or we make each other healthy and so collectively we experience health or sickness measured in destruction of life.

Conformity is dangerous to the degree of sickness in the world and allows for people to turn themselves into human bombs but yet this sickness cannot be healed without
working together so we are pushed into groups by conforming to the needs of the greater "good" for protection from other groups (conformists) doing the same thing.

When there is freedom and support to become autonomous people work toward good and in its absence they seek safety driven by the dangerous child within them
that is in possesion of an adult body and the powers society bestows on them.

Wars are started by children with power supported by other children without power.

[Barbara Ella]

Conformity is a nice theoretical concept that seldom works in practice. This is usually because there always comes a time when some are deemed to be non confirming, and are denigrated for it. It is a helpful concept that can hurt.

Barbara

[Kate Simmons]

If the "conditions: don't work, we have to learn how to change the "conditions" to make them work for us. Simple really. ;):battingeyelashes::)

[Foxglove]

This is a very good post, Veronica, that I think raises some important issues. On this forum you will often see discussion about such things as society's pressure on us to conform and how bad conformity is, etc. I myself believe that one factor that's overlooked is that a lot of people conform, not because of any pressure that's put on them, but simply because they want to conform. Their motives might be different: perhaps it gives them a sense of security, perhaps it gives them certain advantages such as promotions, respect, etc. Whatever their motives, they seem to be quite content with conformity.

I've often joked about such people when they start talking about individual freedom, one's right to be oneself: when they say, "You're free to be whatever you want to be," what they really mean is, "You're free to be whatever you want to be, as long as you're just like me." What I'm saying is, whatever pressure society might put on people, many people don't need any pressure at all. They're quite happy to go along with the crowd.




Some individuals have genuine gender concerns leaving them feeling that their minds are not in conformity with their physical being. However, for others, I sometimes find myself wondering if this concept, which we have come to call transgendered, is in fact a justification for being renegades from society in ways that are so distant from main stream thinking. They may be so uncomfortable with their degree of nonconformity, that they have a need to seek conformity within their smaller group. Are people confusing desires to feel and express femininity, with a desire or need to be a woman? Are they attempting to explain away a curiosity about and intense interest in women (not necessarily just sexual) by their male self, by claims that they were born to be this way because it sounds less perverse than their real reason?

. . . We should ask ourselves if we are being honest about why we crossdress instead of hiding behind excuses, whatever they may be.

Veronica

As for the questions you're raising here, obviously every trans person needs to be honest about his/her motives. But I have a lot of doubts about the notion that someone might get into any sort of transgender activity simply as a justification for being a renegade. E.g., someone might grow up in a religious home and lose the faith at an early age. They're a renegade in that sense. But why would that lead them to crossdress? If they want to be a religious renegade, they can join an atheist forum.

That is, if you're a renegade in one way or another, there's lots of ways to express your non-conformity other than crossdressing.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Veronica27]

As for the questions you're raising here, obviously every trans person needs to be honest about his/her motives. But I have a lot of doubts about the notion that someone might get into any sort of transgender activity simply as a justification for being a renegade. E.g., someone might grow up in a religious home and lose the faith at an early age. They're a renegade in that sense. But why would that lead them to crossdress? If they want to be a religious renegade, they can join an atheist forum.

That is, if you're a renegade in one way or another, there's lots of ways to express your non-conformity other than crossdressing.



Hi Annabelle

I probably wasn't clear on this point, but it wasn't my intention to suggest that people crossdress because they are renegades, but rather the reverse. The fact that they crossdress makes them renegades with respect to that aspect of their lives. I suppose you could make a point that the more of a renegade a person is from an overall personality standpoint, the more likely that they may be out of the closet if they crossdress, and the more likely that they would become an activist.

You make some good points about conformity. Many people probably don't have it in their personality to rebel for the sake of rebelling. They may simply see the advantages to going along with the flow on issues that do not seem that significant to them. Respect is a two way street. We desire it for ourselves, but it is also important to show it to others. If the majority favour a certain approach, why fight it over an inconsequential matter.

The reason for my post was to question the negativity that I hear among crossdressers toward men, society and the so called rules and whether or not that negativity accomplishes anything. I wanted others to think about the other side of the equation as well. Conformity is not an extreme, although some posts tend to paint it as such. The extremes are totalitarianism and complete anarchy. The former is devoid of freedom, while the latter produces chaos. Gender specific clothing by itself is nowhere near totalitarianism and crossdressing by a few is a long way from anarchy. Conformity is very much a middle of the road approach, and so is crossdressing.

Veronica

[Foxglove]

The reason for my post was to question the negativity that I hear among crossdressers toward men, society and the so called rules and whether or not that negativity accomplishes anything. I wanted others to think about the other side of the equation as well. Conformity is not an extreme, although some posts tend to paint it as such. The extremes are totalitarianism and complete anarchy. The former is devoid of freedom, while the latter produces chaos. Gender specific clothing by itself is nowhere near totalitarianism and crossdressing by a few is a long way from anarchy. Conformity is very much a middle of the road approach, and so is crossdressing.

Veronica

Hi, Veronica! Yeah, I understood your overall purpose. I was raising a niggling little problem, if you will. But I think you're asking some good questions here that people would do well to think about. I think you're rightly pointing out that conformity is not a simple issue.

You've helped to crystallize my own thinking on a very closely related topic. I'm in the middle of typing up a post on that, and I intend to direct people to your thread as well so that maybe they'll consider the two issues together. Well done!

Annabelle

[Tina B.]

Veronica, are you retired military? I was in the service, that's where I learned conformity just isn't for everyone, at least not every time. The more you conform, the less room there is for individuality.
I've never understood herd mentality, isn't that why Lemmings follow each other off the cliff?
Tina B.

[KlaireLarnia]

I think Veronica has some interesting points. Conforming - or fitting in to specific boxes is something we all do each day due to the rules and boundaries of society. When someone steps outside of those boxes they are seen as being not renegades but as "not acceptable" based simply on them being different. Society then tries to work out why and what to do with them to put them into boxes it can accept.

Even with a group outside of the "normal" such as us there will always be a mainstream way of thinking or behaving and those who do not fit into the mainstream. Just because people question why others do this or do that does not make them wrong or a pain in the ass. Marleena asked "Who gives a crap why an MTF wants to dress like, look like, or try to be a woman? It is what is." It matters because someone is ASKING.

They may need to understand where they and perhaps other fit in the world, so they get a point of reference on themselves. It matters A LOT! A child leans their place in the world through understanding the world around them and where they fit into it. Same here and same in any social group. Do we conform? Yes but maybe only to a point. So we fit in a box, but maybe one we can look over the top off if needs.

The sad thing is that often people are blinkered to their own perspective. They see those outside that spectrum as either an annoyance/problem or just plain wrong. It can be hard to conform to the "normal" when that normal just seems wrong (for whatever reason).

I don't "conform" to the general cross dressing perception of what people do and how they act. But does that make me any less important or wrong than anyone else? Shouldn't do and am I going to change and conform? Nope, not a chance of that either...

[Marleena]

Marleena asked "Who gives a crap why an MTF wants to dress like, look like, or try to be a woman? It is what is." It matters because someone is ASKING.


Nice reply! We need people to ask outside of the TG community itself so we can educate them. Lately there has been infighting about our own reasons for doing what we do and conformity and misandry. The point is we are driven internally to do this.

[KlaireLarnia]

Nice reply! We need people to ask outside of the TG community itself so we can educate them. Lately there has been infighting about our own reasons for doing what we do and conformity and misandry. The point is we are driven internally to do this.

Point made and taken Marleena and thank you for the response. Sometimes I think people forget that just because we know how to / how not to conform and therefore where out place in the world is, that others do not and need to understand others to understand themselves.

[Kaz]

The trouble is even non-conformists like to know they are supported and they are not alone? It is a great paradox Veronica! I don't want to be in the herd, but I don't necessarily want to be on my own either! And as soon as my group becomes a herd I will just have to non-conform again! Unless I become a politician within the herd... :)

[Eryn]

I have news for everyone, we are all conformists! If we're not conforming to the norms for our birth gender then we are simply replacing them with some of the norms of the opposite gender!

As I temporarily reject the norms forced upon me by my Y chromosome I choose to conform to the more liberal, but still imperative, norms of the XX group. For example, my toenails are painted a pretty orange color because here in SoCal 90% of the women in sandals have brightly painted toes.

Total non-conformists are not people I want to be near. They are defined as insane because they will violate the societal norms that keep us all safe.

[Wildaboutheels]

Basic Human nature is that MOST people either want or need to "fit in" and probably never give, doing all kinds of things they don't particularly like, a second thought.

A much smaller segment may or not be rebels of some type or another but don't NEED to fit in. "Doing stuff" just because everyone else is doing it makes no sense at all to them.

People falling into the first group would want or need excuses.

Those in the second group, don't.

And ANY reason for wearing the wrong clothes or doing our best gender impersonation is just as valid as any other, despite what anyone here might feel or claim.

[Sarah Doepner]

The issue I have with conformity is with those who conform to a standard without thinking about it. By that I'm talking about those people who are raised to believe in a particular way or worse, behave in a particular way just because that's the easy thing to do, and they never question why they are conforming. If they have a reason, that's one thing, but so many have no reason beyond "That's how I was raised" or "That's just how I am". It's comfortable for them and that's fine. Where it becomes a problem for others is where the conforming individual sees a non-conformist and feels that behavior is a threat to them personally. Somehow they mistake a choice or behavior that is different from theirs as a personal attack or by extension a threat to everyone they associate with, their herd. They create their own facts to support their belief and suddenly the non-conformist is a danger to a belief system built on sand. With an unstable foundation they end up flailing about, creating more heat than light.

Any time we can create a little light for those folks and get them to accept small bites of fact and maybe think about it. I don't find conformity a threat in itself. However when it's based on stuff that's made up on the fly, it's a problem.

[Veronica27]

Veronica, are you retired military? I was in the service, that's where I learned conformity just isn't for everyone, at least not every time. The more you conform, the less room there is for individuality.
I've never understood herd mentality, isn't that why Lemmings follow each other off the cliff?
Tina B.

Hi Tina

I am not retired military. I am a retired accountant; a profession which has long been the butt of jokes because of the stereotypes surrounding it. We are the bespectacled, stodgy, humorless nerds of the business world, intent on crunching our numbers and generally not knowing how to have fun. Or at least we were until the Enron scandal in the U.S. brought down one of the largest accounting firms and gave people second thoughts about those guys with their calculators and green pens. It is not unlike the stereotypes faced by crossdressers. The ultra conservative, methodical approach that is stressed as a part of the accounting training has no doubt had an impact on my thoughts about conformity.

My essay agrees with you about the value of individuality, but I think a healthy blending of conformity and individualism produces the best results for both the individual and the group.

I chuckled when I read your lemming reference, as I have often wondered if there was any truth to it, so I decided to google it before responding to you. It seems it is largely a myth that was perpetrated to some extent by non other than Walt Disney. The population of lemmings is subject to wild fluctuations which leads to migrations by less dominant members of the herd to search for new food sources. They scatter, more than following the leader, and at times jump off cliffs, in the hope of reaching water and then swimming to new territories. They are not suicidal and do not blindly follow one another. One source that made me laugh claimed that if they all have a follow the leader mentality, where do the leaders come from?

Veronica

[Rebecca Star]

We need people to ask outside of the TG community itself so we can educate them. Lately there has been infighting about our own reasons for doing what we do and conformity and misandry. The point is we are driven internally to do this.

Marleena raises the topic of which I'm starting to also see, "infighting about our own reasons for doing what we do". It's healthy to be inquisitive, to seek knowledge and to philosophically debate human nature, social influences etc...etc on a given topic(s).


However, it's something all-together different when the pot is getting stirred (in some instances), with what seems a payload to fuel distension between the forum members. Sorry, but the OP IMHO fits my aforementioned opinion.


Sometimes I come through here and spot a thread that's been commenced which looks akin to a Psych paper. Those threads make me feel like a lab rat. I often wonder if some people here are chameleon’s. Not here because they themselves identify as TG but here to study us and see what makes us tick. I certainly hope that's not the case. But as I get older nothing seems to surprise me any-more. And that includes to what length some people will go to justify acquiring research data.

[Veronica27]

I would like to give an overall thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. There have been some excellent thoughts presented, both pro and con, in a non-confrontational manner. I have learned a great deal from reading them all, and they have helped to clarify my own thoughts on the issue. I especially enjoyed the references to personal boundaries, and all the various reasons in support of both conformity and non-conformity.

Veronica

[Veronica27]

Marleena raises the topic of which I'm starting to also see, "infighting about our own reasons for doing what we do". It's healthy to be inquisitive, to seek knowledge and to philosophically debate human nature, social influences etc...etc on a given topic(s).


However, it's something all-together different when the pot is getting stirred (in some instances), with what seems a payload to fuel distension between the forum members. Sorry, but the OP IMHO fits my aforementioned opinion.


Sometimes I come through here and spot a thread that's been commenced which looks akin to a Psych paper. Those threads make me feel like a lab rat. I often wonder if some people here are chameleon’s. Not here because they themselves identify as TG but here to study us and see what makes us tick. I certainly hope that's not the case. But as I get older nothing seems to surprise me any-more. And that includes to what length some people will go to justify acquiring research data.


Hi Rebecca

I am sorry that you felt the thread was intended to stir up dissent or that I am attempting to acquire research data. It was quite the opposite in that I was presenting some thoughts about our tendency to malign others who are simply doing what they quite rightly see as normal, fitting into society and conforming to the rules. Acceptance and understanding are two way streets, and some members, myself included, have at times become confrontational with others, with whom we differed, both within this community and within society as a whole. That approach does not help our cause.

You are quite right in that I do not identify as TG, but that is old news. I crossdress, at times quite frequently, and have been doing so for about 60 years. I find it refreshing that people can come here and discuss what they feel are the reasons for this unique activity, after so many years of having no information whatsoever.

Your post popped up after I had posted my thank you, and you have presented some thoughts as to my motivations that had not occurred to me, so I include you in my thank you, as you have given me something additional to think about.

Veronica

[Frédérique]

We need people to ask outside of the TG community itself so we can educate them. Lately there has been infighting about our own reasons for doing what we do and conformity and misandry. The point is we are driven internally to do this.

True, but everyone’s “take” on crossdressing, i.e. the whys and the wherefores, is different. Speaking as an isolationist, for lack of a better word, I don’t feel it’s possible for a community of this sort to be fully integrated or on the same page at all times. However, this doesn’t mean I seek to be divisive – I would much rather be a part of our so-called community, even though I will never actually see it, except as it appears on these electronic “pages.” I support all members of our community without question, unless civility is not present, and then I prefer to turn away and mind my OWN business…
:straightface:


I have news for everyone, we are all conformists! If we're not conforming to the norms for our birth gender then we are simply replacing them with some of the norms of the opposite gender!

Which makes us NON-conformist in the eyes of society, since we, as males, are doing something forbidden by society… :straightface:


Sometimes I come through here and spot a thread that's been commenced which looks akin to a Psych paper. Those threads make me feel like a lab rat. I often wonder if some people here are chameleons. Not here because they themselves identify as TG but here to study us and see what makes us tick. I certainly hope that's not the case. But as I get older nothing seems to surprise me any-more. And that includes to what length some people will go to justify acquiring research data.

Is it OK if I study what makes ME tick, and then report my findings to others? I assure you I’m not a research scientist, nor am I a psychiatrist, nor am I a person who is trying to impress everyone with excess verbiage. I’m just an ordinary MtF crossdresser rooting around in the dark caverns of my soul looking for a few answers. I’m not even a writer, for crying out loud!

I’ve been very disappointed at the “findings” put forth in actual research papers, in fact most stuff that passes for clinical insights (making you feel like a "lab rat," no doubt) is highly unsympathetic to any CD/TV, TG, or TS who might read it. However, on this site, you can read the collective voice of experience, sympathetic to a fault, and sometimes, just sometimes, the words are arranged in a highly intelligent manner for YOUR benefit. Keep it coming, I say…


You are quite right in that I do not identify as TG, but that is old news. I crossdress, at times quite frequently, and have been doing so for about 60 years. I find it refreshing that people can come here and discuss what they feel are the reasons for this unique activity, after so many years of having no information whatsoever.

I couldn’t have said it better myself. Once upon a time, there was nothing….:)

Keep up the good work, Veronica, and pay no attention to detractors. I could read your beautiful prose all day long... :)

[Shananigans]

Conformity proved pretty advantageous when we were surviving in tribes. Other people that looked and acted like us were recognized as safe. People that looked different and acted different were recognized as unsafe. It protected us. It was also easier for people to conform to roles so that the tribe kept running. Conformity proved advantageous to survival, so it stayed with us. We are Still uneasy by people that look and behave differently from ourselves, and certain standards of conformity exist in all places of the world today...this is why we can have laws and ideas about psychological health. I don't expect there are many complete "non-conformists" out there...like we see on this site, there's a type of conformity that exists here. Crossdressing is also somewhat of a conformity to expectations of GGs...you see a lot of people say they feel innately female, and so they conform to the gender binary that has been laid out for females.

So, anyway, you conform a lot of times without realizing what you're doing. Total non-conformists make people very uncomfortable, so you'll see them locked up. It's hard to hate conformity too much because it's done us pretty well...we achieved this whole civilization thing, no big deal.

But, it is true that conformity can be devastating. Religious conformity has plagued humanity with numerous wars throughout our history...but, we also do not know how present day society would look without such atrocities.

I like to conform to basic laws and expectations...it keeps me successful and out of prison/the but house. But, I'm also intelligent enough that I'm not walking around with a "herd mentality" to just do what in told....well, until you realize that we have turned/are turning the world into one huge shopping mall and ya just gotta spend dat money on sh*t you don't need.

Everyone conforms in some way...those people that think they are cool and aren't conforming are usually pretty blind. But, bless their hearts...you might as well just nod, pat them on the back, and tell them good job. It's like dealing with a kid that refuses to breathe until he/she gets his/her way...eventually they'll pass out and start breathing. The person claiming up and down that they're a non-conformist will eventually be found in Walmart, ordering a Big Mac from the built-in McDonalds. You could be a d*ck and point it out to them, but there's really no point. We all conform...if people feel better to label themselves "non-conformists," what's the harm in letting them stay in the Disney Land of their minds. It's when you walk around, realizing what a conformist you are that you've solidified a firm grasp on reality, and things suck a bit more than they did before lol.

[Kaz]

Marleena raises the topic of which I'm starting to also see, "infighting about our own reasons for doing what we do". It's healthy to be inquisitive, to seek knowledge and to philosophically debate human nature, social influences etc...etc on a given topic(s).


However, it's something all-together different when the pot is getting stirred (in some instances), with what seems a payload to fuel distension between the forum members. Sorry, but the OP IMHO fits my aforementioned opinion.


Sometimes I come through here and spot a thread that's been commenced which looks akin to a Psych paper. Those threads make me feel like a lab rat. I often wonder if some people here are chameleon’s. Not here because they themselves identify as TG but here to study us and see what makes us tick. I certainly hope that's not the case. But as I get older nothing seems to surprise me any-more. And that includes to what length some people will go to justify acquiring research data.

As serious research data this wouldn't get past my door I am afraid, though it may find its way onto some silly site somewhere... but saying what? I have no problem with the OP's initial premise... we naturally want to conform in order to belong... when we feel that we don't, we dissent... and when that means dis-communication from the group, that can be hard if that is not what we wanted, but the we will look for another group to join... or we will create one... unless we are true loners... in which case conformity is not an issue... other than that you have now 'conformed' to the loners group...

Such is life when we try to categorise it... I conform to being non-conformist! I even wear their clothes!

[Foxglove]

Everyone conforms in some way...those people that think they are cool and aren't conforming are usually pretty blind. But, bless their hearts...you might as well just nod, pat them on the back, and tell them good job. It's like dealing with a kid that refuses to breathe until he/she gets his/her way...eventually they'll pass out and start breathing. The person claiming up and down that they're a non-conformist will eventually be found in Walmart, ordering a Big Mac from the built-in McDonalds. You could be a d*ck and point it out to them, but there's really no point. We all conform...if people feel better to label themselves "non-conformists," what's the harm in letting them stay in the Disney Land of their minds. It's when you walk around, realizing what a conformist you are that you've solidified a firm grasp on reality, and things suck a bit more than they did before lol.

I think this is a good point, Shan. I personally do the expected sometimes and a lot of times I don't. E.g., I read stuff that a lot of people would consider "high-brow", but on the other hand I love a good thriller/mystery. Right now I'm reading a Michael Connolly book and am really enjoying it. Music? I grew up on the Beatles and Doors and Jethro Tull and I still listen to them. On the other hand, one of my recent discoveries was Tomaso Albinoni, if you've heard of him (or even if you haven't), and for me his stuff is just sheer delight.

These two examples are typical of me. Sometimes I conform, sometimes I don't. I don't see any point in being a non-conformist for the sake of being a non-conformist or being a conformist for the sake of being a conformist. Life is too short. Do what makes you happy, what you find to be of value to yourself. Whether lots of people are doing it or almost none, what does it matter?

My type of non-conformity, if that's what it is, is doing what means something to me, and if other people aren't happy with that, tuff! The great exception (alas!) to this rule of mine is all the years I wasted conforming to the norm as regards gender. What an idiot I've been. Well, maybe reincarnation is true, and I'll get another chance. Surely I won't make the same mistake twice in a row, will I?

Annabelle

[Shananigans]

That's exactly it, Annabelle. In the end, you just have to be truly "doing you." Someone who is actually going against the grain of society probably isn't worried about the label of conformer versus non-conformer. The "non-conformers" that we can remember usually shake our history...they're usually something very evil or very good. They are operating so differently fron everyone else that we almost always place them in exteme categories outside of our norm. You could think of anyone from Hitler to Gandhi as a non-conformer...though, it can be argued that they too conformed in many ways. However, it is not what someone is wearing or not wearing that makes him/her a non-conformer...it is what they do and who they are...or, rather, who they are not.

But, that's only my opinion.

[MelanieB]

Lately I see a lot of arguing or debating for nothing. Who gives a crap why an MTF wants to dress like, look like, or try to be a woman? It is what is.

We are driven to do so for different reasons. Nobody knows why.

When we do the above we are no longer seen as conforming, that's it. We just all need to do our own thing. If somebody has the right way to go about it let me know! I think it's all personal choice.

Couldn't agree more with every word of this Marleena

I've come through my whole life wondering why people feel they need to conform with others......others who are one and all individual and as different as chalk and cheese

Why would I want to go to a football game....I hate football
Why should I live in a city....I hate crowds...give me rural anytime
Why should I want to tow a caravan for my holidays....they are nothing but a curse on us all as far as I'm concerned

Each and every one of us is different no matter how much some people claim they may want to conform

Just get on with your own life, be happy and stuff everyone else

Melanie