Divide and conquer!

[Marleena]

All of us MTF's are under the the transgender umbrella for a reason. It allows strength in numbers and affords us protection and allows us to be one voice. There is strength in numbers.

Some of us fight this designation for whatever reason. It's what they want. As splinter groups we are easier to conquer. Wars are won while we fight amongst ourselves. History proves that. I say we stick together.

I'm hoping that all groups under the umbrella can learn to support each other in the struggles we face..

What are your thoughts on this?

[STACY B]

Hell we are all in the same boat ,,, So to speak ,,I dont fight with others but some on here do ,,Everyone cant get along ,,,Even in ie,,,,Regular society ,,,So whats makes us different ? We are all going to do an say different things ,,, That makes us Stronger ,,, Just give up an go shoe shopping ,,,Always works for me ,,, Even if I dont buy any ,,, Still makes for a good day ,,,, Showin the LOVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tina B.]

I've always said that Marleena, but then I don't find anything wrong with the tittle Trans, when I first learned what I was, the only known name I had for it was Transvestite, just knowing that what I was doing had a name, made me feel better way back then, and the word Trans has never bothered me at all.
So call me a transvestite, call me transgendered, it's all good, it just means that I like womens clothing, and I wear what I like. I'm glad to be a member of the LGBT community, it beats the heck out of being the lone freak!
Tina B.

[Kaz]

In principle I agree Marleena. I have learned a lot from people on this site from all 'corners' of the 'community'. The sub-groups are useful though for specific issues. For example the girls here who have gone through surgery have specific issues that whilst I may be interested in hearing about, are not my issues, and so on...

But I do think there is a real value in understanding the broader 'us', especially as some of us change category at times, whether that is one way or two way.

I would hate to lose contact with the richness of diversity that we have! :)

[Marleena]

I would hate to lose contact with the richness of diversity that we have! :)

Oh I guess I wasn't clear in my post Kaz.:)

Not asking anybody to leave their gender status or groups. I'm hoping that all groups under the umbrella can learn to support each other in the struggles we face..

[Foxglove]

I think you're absolutely right, Marleena. We can perceive differences among us--even though we might not fully understand each other. Nonetheless, society at large is going to perceive us as all the same, I think. They're not going to make any distinctions, and I don't think they'd care about them if they did.

It makes sense for us all to stand together. There are so few of us as it is, it's not going to help matters if our numbers are divided.

Annabelle

[Julogden]

You've nailed it Marleena. It's important that we all overlook any petty differences and avoid extremely damaging "I'm more real/better than you" ego trips. We're all in the same boat together, put there by those who don't like us, and our foes are delighted when we start trying to throw each other overboard.

Carol

[Contessa]

I am actually with you and your thoughts Marleena. I know that I have had to step away from the forum because of my feelings about other things. I have nothing against any of my sisters here, I just want to know if I am being heard. When we need to we will stand hand and hand together and I promise to be there with my hand out for anyone of you to take hold. Yes there is strength in numbers.


Tess

[reb.femme]

All of us MTF's are under the the transgender umbrella for a reason. It allows strength in numbers and affords us protection and allows us to be one voice. There is strength in numbers.

Some of us fight this designation for whatever reason. It's what they want. As splinter groups we are easier to conquer. Wars are won while we fight amongst ourselves. History proves that. I say we stick together.

I'm hoping that all groups under the umbrella can learn to support each other in the struggles we face..

What are your thoughts on this?

Hi Marleena,

Good post. I'm never afraid of an argument, but I agree with your general sentiment. I'm happy to be supportive and even give my humble(?) opinion. :devil:

I don't care how others wish to dress or present, that is for them and their nearest and dearest. I like this site because it brings together an extremely diverse grouping, from which I glean greater insight into the thoughts of others. Constructive criticism is good but wilfully denigrating the thoughts of another is plain lazy and cowardly.

I am me (T-Girl,CD, whatever)......and I'm very happy with that part.......I just need to be a multi-millionaire (dollars or pounds) and that's me done! :heehee:

Rebecca x (vive le difference)

[Billiebluenose1878 GG]

Yes the LGBT are all under the same umbrella ...BUT to be truthful we and I mean WE are all Human Beings. And should be looked at at equally ....no compartmentalizing ..okies xxxxxxx just my opinion xxx

[~Joanne~]

I wish we could do this as a society in general. Maybe we wouldn't be walked on by those that want to control everything and everyone.

[daarleane]

A quote from history: We can all hang together or we can all hang separately". At the time it meant "hanging", we must all work together, in numbers there is strength. Separately we are just someone "different".

[Kaz]

Oh I guess I wasn't clear in my post Kaz.:)

Not asking anybody to leave their gender status or groups. I'm hoping that all groups under the umbrella can learn to support each other in the struggles we face..

Exactly and I agree with you... my post was meant as a reason to be together! :)

[Sarah Doepner]

I'm in favor of anything that will get crossdressers enough acceptance that a little of the truth will filter out. It's been a few stereotypes that the vast majority of people relate to when they hear about us. Rarely do those stereotypes include; long term committed spouse, hard worker, subdued presentation, faithful, respectful, family oriented, happy, healthy, thoughtful, professional, skilled, concerned, and so on. Let's ride the coattails of any group that will open that door to understanding by a wider audience and reduce the the dependence on inaccurate and incomplete images that have come to represent crossdressers, transvestites, transgendered, t-girls and whatever else we go by.

[Persephone]

Maybe we wouldn't be walked on by those that want to control everything and everyone.

Unfortunately, running around in artificially created "groups," holding ralleys and singing Kumbaya is exactly what allows control and manipulation. Far from creating freedom and individual rights, it is too often is supportive of the fake agendas that feed the system
Hugs,
Persephone.

[Eryn]

It is always interesting that anytime a group gets together for a mutual purpose there always seems to be internal strife. It seems to be in our nature to fight each other as much as it is to band together.

I think that the working philosophy in the GLBT group is "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." I may not completely agree with another GLBT person, but at least they don't want me deleted from the earth like others do.

[DaphneGrey]

What are we fighting for? please don't misunderstand I am really serious about this question. Changing laws? Equal rights?public awareness?

[Laura912]

The umbrella is necessary to keep us from getting rained on by the verbal and physical assaults of those who do not or do not want to understand that with which we cope.

[Rebecca Star]

All of us MTF's are under the the transgender umbrella for a reason. It allows strength in numbers and affords us protection and allows us to be one voice. There is strength in numbers.

Some of us fight this designation for whatever reason. It's what they want. As splinter groups we are easier to conquer. Wars are won while we fight amongst ourselves. History proves that. I say we stick together.

I'm hoping that all groups under the umbrella can learn to support each other in the struggles we face..

What are your thoughts on this?

Is it not better to embrace our similarities than to focus on our differences?

I understand and respect the fact people have different opinions and that's cool by me. Though, given the forum's mandate, it seems we'd be better serving both our individual and greater community needs in a more positive vein, if it was kind of like, "all for one one for all". Camaraderie probably explains my belief best.

I'm not saying folk here aren't friends or good friendships are not developed here.

What I am saying is in some instances our differences seem to divide us, instead of focusing on our similarities and using these in a positive step forward. :)

[Marleena]

What are we fighting for? please don't misunderstand I am really serious about this question. Changing laws? Equal rights?public awareness?

Working together for all of the above.:)

[Sandra1746]

Everyone is different and everyone has a different form of self-expression and self-definition. We SHOULD all support each other and not look for divisions. However threads that seek to ask "are you only a ***" regularly appear.

The public at large doesn't make the fine distinction between CD, TG, or TS or whatever. And most of them never heard of the Benjamin Scale or any similar rating system. To them we are mostly gay and perverts. We obsess over our divisions at our own peril.

"If we don't hang together we shall surely all hang separately." B. Franklin

Just my $0.02,
Sandra1746

[DaphneGrey]

I can appreciate that. I just haven't seen much in the way of organization. Other than what falls under the GLBT flag.

There is the TG legal defense fund they do some good stuff.

[Rebecca Star]

Sometimes in these situations, it's like herding cats, suspicious and paranoid cats.
Everyone is their own agent so to speak and I suppose in some instances have their own agendas too.

And to a lesser degree, axe's to grind.

[Kate Simmons]

Yes the LGBT are all under the same umbrella ...BUT to be truthful we and I mean WE are all Human Beings. And should be looked at at equally ....no compartmentalizing ..okies xxxxxxx just my opinion xxxExactly what I'm basically always trying to point out Hon. We are all unique individuals and we all make our own contribution to human kind.:battingeyelashes::)

[Foxglove]

It is always interesting that anytime a group gets together for a mutual purpose there always seems to be internal strife. It seems to be in our nature to fight each other as much as it is to band together.

Aye, you get tired of being a tadpole in a huge ocean. Now you've a chance to be a big frog, even if it is a little pond. Some people find that worth squabbling over.


I think that the working philosophy in the GLBT group is "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

And your friend's friend might be your enemy. Alliances can be uncertain and ever-shifting.

[Miranda-E]

You have to work with and embrace the big one in the GLBT fight. the big G, the gays, the ones actually doing the work. keep distancing your self from that and fighting those causes and it doesn't matter if you're cd/tg there is no winning in the rights fight.

[Rebecca Star]

You have to work with and embrace the big one in the GLBT fight. the big G, the gays, the ones actually doing the work. keep distancing your self from that and fighting those causes and it doesn't matter if you're cd/tg there is no winning in the rights fight.

I get your idea on this, I truly do. But in retrospect, while some (CD's) identify as being gay or bi, it seems the majority of us are hetrosexual. If we side with the GLBT, then we're ultimately saying we're something we've been fighting years to say were not.

Meaning, the general public are back to thinknig we're all gay but like to wear women's clothes...

[docrobbysherry]

Nice THEORY, Marleena, but I don't think it's practical! Personality differences, u know?

[Frédérique]

All of us MTF's are under the the transgender umbrella for a reason. It allows strength in numbers and affords us protection and allows us to be one voice. There is strength in numbers. Some of us fight this designation for whatever reason. It's what they want. As splinter groups we are easier to conquer. Wars are won while we fight amongst ourselves. History proves that. I say we stick together. I'm hoping that all groups under the umbrella can learn to support each other in the struggles we face.. What are your thoughts on this?

I’m a lover, not a fighter. If it comes to open conflict, you can count me out, but I might be retained in an advisory position! Who are we going to war with? I think we’re outnumbered…
:sad:

Looking around, splintering seems to be the order of the day, and CD’s are WAY out there, orbiting somewhere near the rim of the “umbrella.” We’re all different, so how can we possibly agree on anything? I mean, the effeminate crossdressers will clash with crossdressers who retain their male bluster at all costs, the ones who crossdress for sexual pleasure will clash with those who CD for tactile pleasure, the “I don’t care what they think” types will clash with the closeted, shy types, and the repressed, sad, under-her-thumb MtF’s will clash with the happy, contented MtF’s who are blissfully unattached. I think this is beautiful, and not a problem to overcome – trying to do so negates natural, inherent human feelings based on survival instincts, not to mention individuality. Maybe we’re in the midst of an evolutionary revolution in regards to how we define ourselves, and maybe not. Meanwhile, splintering only creates more kindling for the fires (the flames) that keep us all cozy and warm, and it goes without saying that we need a reason to live. Can humans ever distance themselves from conflict? I try to do my part by supporting the” community” via sympathetic words…

One more thing – some crossdressers like to write, and some crossdressers hate to read… :doh:


But in retrospect, while some (CD's) identify as being gay or bi, it seems the majority of us are heterosexual. If we side with the GLBT, then we're ultimately saying we're something we've been fighting years to say were not. Meaning, the general public are back to thinking we're all gay but like to wear women's clothes...

It IS a paradox, isn’t it? Heterosexual MtF crossdressers are, by definition, grouped in with “T” for better or worse. It’s a convenient explanation for those who don’t look too far into things – he dresses up because he has homosexual tendencies, or a repressed female “self” that needs to come out to play. Cute. No one ever mentions that sensibilities are either more or less acute, or on display, in certain individuals, and some people can FEEL things that others cannot. In such a situation, crossdressing can be seen as a type of sensory exploration that implies gender experimentation, but, at the present time, you MUST be gay if you enjoy tactile sensation, or color, or anything delicate and beautiful. Under these precepts, I will gladly declare myself to be GAY and duck under the TG umbrella. I don’t wish to be out there, where there is no color, no delicacy, no feeling, and no beauty. The world wants me, a male, to get serious, but I only answer to myself…
:hmph:

[Debglam]

We can argue all we want among ourselves, but you are right Marleena and we have to put on a united front to the cis/straight world.

Pardon my jaded attitude but rights are protected by laws and politicians write and pass laws. To get most politician's attention, you either need money (to donate) or numbers (voters). Unless Bill Gates is one of us and wants to start writing checks, we need to have enough numbers to make it worth the politician's while to do this. TS alone are not enough, CD alone are not enough, and until a lot more people are willing to come out of the closet, at least when it comes to supporting trans rights, even the the whole transgender community might not be enough. We really need to work with the LGB community, to use the infrastructure that they created, to bring the trans community up to their level of acceptance.

"We all hang together or we all hang separately!"

[Kaz]

Here we go! I have as much in common with the gay community as I do with feminists. I have no problem with their chosen take on life and how that affects/decides their lifestyle options. But I am not gay and I am not a GG feminist (though I might well support the majority of the beliefs of yet another diverse group)...

The GLBT 'community' is strange one and one that I do not feel comfortable with other than appreciating the need for campaigning etc... one of my biggest problems is that the public portrayal of CD in this community is not one that I am comfortable with and therefore something I feel difficult to embrace other than another human rights thing that I will support but not feel part of.

It is all about what community is what? Most trangendered people I guess would not think of themselves as gay, bisexual or lesbian... as these terms refer to a sexual orientation within the bounds of one's own natural gender. TG/CD is very different. Many are heterosexual and it wouldn't surprise me to find that the gay/lesbian/bi/hetero distribution is the same as the genetral population. If it is... then there would be no statistically significant link between CD/TG and the GBL community.

We are there as a convenient 'add-on'. Does it help us? Some will say yes, but I am of the view that this association just increases and reinforces the general public's view that CDs are all gay, but more than that... they are also weird! My wife accepts gays and lesbians... but CDs? No... we are just weird, and by the way we must be gay because we are part of the GBLT community. We are just on the weird end of the gay brigade.

I honestly think that we are different, but we are still a heterogenous community with many sub-strata. One day it would be great to be able to understand this gender dysphoria issue without all the trappings of things that it isn't.

For me... CDs... we like to dress in clothes of the opposite natural gender. Our reasons for doing this and how we do it differ across a whole broad spectrum, from guys in frocks to GRS and beyond... This is my community...

[LisaMallon]

Dead right Deb. It is a pretty hostile world out there. With, sadly, far too many politicians and demagogues who would be quite happy to throw a sub-group of society under the wheels if it would earn them some votes.

We are a pretty small and visible group. Easy targets if you like. Frankly we could all get in real legal trouble in a flash if someone in power decided to turn a screw. I'm reminded of Tasmania, where it is still illegal for a male to wear women's clothes. Now these days they don't actually apply it, but that could change in a flash.

Sadly we now live in a world of 'power politics', not of rights and justice. So if you don't have some political clout you are at risk all the time.

I personally hate the fragmentation I see at times in the Trans community, the fact is that we all have the the same common interests in terms of rights and justice. So whatever small nit picking we may have between ourselves in some areas, they always have to be put aside for the common good.

[Kaz]

We can argue all we want among ourselves, but you are right Marleena and we have to put on a united front to the cis/straight world.

Pardon my jaded attitude but rights are protected by laws and politicians write and pass laws. To get most politician's attention, you either need money (to donate) or numbers (voters). Unless Bill Gates is one of us and wants to start writing checks, we need to have enough numbers to make it worth the politician's while to do this. TS alone are not enough, CD alone are not enough, and until a lot more people are willing to come out of the closet, at least when it comes to supporting trans rights, even the the whole transgender community might not be enough. We really need to work with the LGB community, to use the infrastructure that they created, to bring the trans community up to their level of acceptance.

"We all hang together or we all hang separately!"

Hi Deb,

I am kind of disagreeing with you but not quite! Yes we need a bigger voice, maybe, but we need to very careful about how that voice is heard.

In this little old country of mine we have a coalition government. A small outfit called the Liberal Democrats wanted a bigger voice and saw an opportunity in a hung vote to get into bed with the Conservatives (Tories)... they are probably destined for extinction as everything they stand for gets drowned out by the Big Bad Wolf, who has no interest in their views, just their votes.... Not many take them seriously anymore... :(

[Tracii G]

In my town we have a fairness oradinance for TG/gay people, equal treatment and rights under the law and its fabulous.If you get pulled over when driving enfemme the police treat you as you present.You can go anywhere you like and be fine. Just be wise where you go like always common sense girls.Stay out of the rough places,just because you can doesn't make it a good idea.
If it wasn't for being under a part of the GLBT umbrella I don't think that ordinance would have passed.
Having an openly gay mayor I'm sure helped a lot.He's a great guy.
This ordinance helps in having fair treatment on the job too.
Try to get a fairness ordinance past wherever you live if you can its a great thing.

[Rebecca Star]

One size doesn't always fit all, that's especially true (IMO) regarding the forming an alliance with the LGBT. Fundimentally this movement is about identifying as "gay" or "lesbian", it's sexual preference - being attracted to the same sex.

We've got people coming out to their SO's etc...etc and one of the first questions is, are you gay?
It's going to be nonsensical to most SO's if we take an about face, join something we are not, yet believe we can maintain our own sexual identies. If anything, we're just more numbers, and you know how people get treated when they go from being a person to a number, hey!

Added: I'm not dishing the LGBT, they're a good, strong group who are need to change things. I just don't think in the long run it will do us any favours... If anything it will create another drama altogether, some thing that's likely to take another heap of time to change.

People like Jesscia Who? Seem to be doing a great job ad educating ppl, why can't we stick with something like this and grow from that?

[Debglam]

Hi Deb,

I am kind of disagreeing with you but not quite! Yes we need a bigger voice, maybe, but we need to very careful about how that voice is heard.

No problem.

I do think there are significant differences between the LGB and the T community and we certainly have different experiences in the trans community but I do think we need (in the States) to be pragmatic about getting stuff done. I really am a cheerleader for consensus building and unity. My experience in a number of arenas is that just because something is the right thing to do doesn't mean that it will get done. Our political system (as it currently stands) just doesn't encourage that (sadly)

Deb

[ReineD]

I get your idea on this, I truly do. But in retrospect, while some (CD's) identify as being gay or bi, it seems the majority of us are hetrosexual. If we side with the GLBT, then we're ultimately saying we're something we've been fighting years to say were not.

Meaning, the general public are back to thinknig we're all gay but like to wear women's clothes...

The general public needs to know there is a rich diversity in non-fetishistic gender identity and sexual preference. Everyone outside the LGBTQ community is straight cisgender. Within the LGBTQ community, the non-transitioning "T"s are pretty silent, the transitioning "T"s are a bit more visible, the transitioned "Ts" by virtue of their transition live mostly cisgendered stealth lives. The "G"s, "L"s, and "B"s are mostly cisgender too (not so much the "Q"s maybe, but we don't hear much from them either), and until the non-transitioners and the "Q"s make themselves more visible, John Q Public with continue to conflate gender ID and presentation with sexual preference and they will continue to look at it all in black and white.

I don't think there are enough visible non-transitioning "T"s to form a strong movement of their own so until then I see a choice only between continuing to be completely underground, or being on the fringe of the LGBTQ community.

As for the purely fetish CDers, there have been many threads where they rightfully proclaim themselves to be men who have a fetish, and it is debatable as to whether they should be considered part of the "T". I'm referring here to the truly pure sexual fetishists, not the CDers who believe it is only fetish, but who get a lot of personal, non-sexual satisfaction out of being feminine (as defined by current cultural norms). Anyway, there are also people who form part of the BDSM and Fetish community and it makes more sense that any pure sexual fetishists whether they CD or not, should identify with this community rather than the "T" part of the LGBTQ (since they don't identify as transgender) ... although they certainly are most welcome to participate in this forum! (as long as they behave) :)

[Kelly Smith]

Marleena, "Some of us fight this designation for whatever reason. It's what they want. As splinter groups we are easier to conquer. Wars are won while we fight amongst ourselves. History proves that. I say we stick together."

Who EXACTLY are the "they" "we" are at war with?

[Marleena]

Marleena, "Some of us fight this designation for whatever reason. It's what they want. As splinter groups we are easier to conquer. Wars are won while we fight amongst ourselves. History proves that. I say we stick together."

Who EXACTLY are the "they" "we" are at war with?

Kelly they are the politicians and the general public. It's not a war in the usual sense but a battle to get acceptance and tolerance and to be treated equally and with respect.

[Kelly Smith]

I am not following the War metaphor. In what sense are the politicians an the general public trying to conquer us? Which politicians?

[Tracii G]

The T in LGBT stands for transgender.
I love that bunch here they support us and we support them.A very good alliance IMO.
LGBT here is strong and they do a fine job making the TG issues be recognized and dealt with fairly.

[Marleena]

I am not following the War metaphor. In what sense are the politicians an the general public trying to conquer us? Which politicians?

Ignore the war metaphor then Kelly. Think of the different groups on this board and the infighting. Once it reaches a certain point nothing can be accomplished.

How about the discontinuity effect? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discontinuity_effect Maybe that will make more sense.

[Kelly Smith]

Marleena, Please excuse my naivety. I am new here.

[AllieSF]

I am for continuing to be part of the larger umbrella group of LGBT and supporting each other in our needs. It always makes me shake my head a bit when I hear from the "T" side that they do not want to be associated with gays and lesbians. It sounds like they are worried about catching that dreaded LGB cootie that may cause them to cross that line and "Whatever will Ruth and the neighbors think?"! I am out all the time, and yes, many times the strangers I am talking about get around to asking if I am gay or not. It takes me nothing to kindly and directly say that I am not gay and their thought is incorrect. I do not go away thinking bad about myself, but rather proud that I took advantage of the opportunity to clarify who I am and who most of my fellow MtF CD's are, not gay. I don't shout it and wave my arms, just give them that nice explanation with a smile, and then continue on in normally extensive conversations.

Now, if all those worried about being tainted with the gay logo as part of LGBT want to start their own splinter group and take the lead and actually do something constructive, then I might listen more closely to what you have to say. However, I believe that most of you naysayers are just like me. I do not want to grab the flag and lead the parade. I am more than happy to be on the sidelines, vote and voice my opinion about all this when I can. Will you who say no I do not want to be part of LGBT be willing to carry that flag, since there are so few of you? Who will carry that flag if not you? Yeah, I know someone else.

As has been stated here so many times before on this same topic, there is just no critical mass available to the "T" part to really get anywhere, especially if you consider how many are in the closet or as Reine said, going stealth. What we do need is strong and intelligent participation in the overall LGBT movement to make sure that our voices are heard and that our specific needs are met.

[Marleena]

Marleena, Please excuse my naivety. I am new here.


Not a problem, I'm easy to get along with. You'll see things clearer after you're here for a while. The TG spectrum is compromised of many different groups from CD to TS.

Simple version: if all groups work together things can be accomplished to make life better for us. The LBG community has been working hard to integrate into society. It's done through changing laws and having a voice to point out injustices and achieve equality with the heterosexual world. The transgender grouping has lots to do still.

Discontinuity is a source of problems on all boards like this and within the TG community itself. It's present in TG/TS groups too.

[Veronica27]

I don't think there are enough visible non-transitioning "T"s to form a strong movement of their own so until then I see a choice only between continuing to be completely underground, or being on the fringe of the LGBTQ community.



Therein lies the conundrum. The LGBT movement does not truly represent the non-transitioning "T"s but instead can create problems in achieving understanding and acceptance by an apparent confirming of the gay stereotype. Rebecca Star and Frederique have covered this point quite eloquently. Also, the use of the term transgender by the media indicates a complete lack of understanding of the totality and diversity of the community. It tends to imply that we are all the same, and that image is not the one that many crossdressers are attempting to show to those to whom they may want to reveal themselves. That incorrect image tends to get reinforced by the umbrella concept. The non-visible portion of the community, in all likelihood, form a quite sizable population, but do not feel that they are represented by the LGBT movement but instead are kept more closeted by its impact on general opinons.



It always makes me shake my head a bit when I hear from the "T" side that they do not want to be associated with gays and lesbians. It sounds like they are worried about catching that dreaded LGB cootie that may cause them to cross that line and "Whatever will Ruth and the neighbors think?"!

That completely distorts and belittles the concerns of those who hold that viewpoint.



Now, if all those worried about being tainted with the gay logo as part of LGBT want to start their own splinter group and take the lead and actually do something constructive, then I might listen more closely to what you have to say.


Many have no desire to be proactive about any issue, but simply do not want other activists imposing their ideals and agenda upon them.

Veronica

[Jacqueline Winona]

I agree with a lot of what Veronica said. The gay friends that I have really don't relate to crossdressers at all, they are just more tolerant of different behavior and the T most certainly is for transexuals, not transgendered in the borader sense. We are kind of on an island, regardless of how hard we may try to relate we're just not thought of the same as those who are truly tansitioning or in the process of transitioning. But we can hide and they can't, so maybe that makes it even. :)

[AllieSF]

You are right Veronica about people not wanting to be proactive, and that is why I said that we should be part of the bigger group to get to that critical mass. No one to raise the flag and do something positive means the separatists concept of "T only" probably will not work if not enough active people are there to make a difference. I am not saying that we don't have different needs in some areas. We also have similar needs to the whole organization. Heck, reading the in-fighting that exists in the TS section as to when someone is a woman, or how everybody is different in the "T" part, and why do TS's need to be lumped in with CD's, makes one wonder if a "T" only group can even function all by itself for all of the internal bickering. And then you have the CD's who do not want to be included under the transgender term.

I am not trying to belittle anyone. Many people here want nothing to do with that label, and that really makes me wonder why. It is like a dirty word where they are concerned. This is what I have seen here for the last 5+ years. Being called gay is no different than being called American, Jewish, blue collar, conservative, or whatever. Being called or associated with something does not mean that one is that. One needs to learn how to tell people they are wrong when they are wrong. What is bad about being mistaken for gay? Are people ashamed by that? If they are, why? Do they not know how to deal with a mis-labeling when an explanation would clear it all up? I am not talking about something associated with getting a job or promotion. I am talking about people here that do not want the "T" associated with the LGB and I truly do not see nor understand their concerns except for associating that label with something negative about themselves. Why should it be considered negative?

RebeccaStar said above "We've got people coming out to their SO's etc...etc and one of the first questions is, are you gay? It's going to be nonsensical to most SO's if we take an about face, join something we are not, yet believe we can maintain our own sexual identifies." Why would it be non-sensical to the SO when the "T"person wants to support a valid organization fighting for a lot of disadvantaged people's civil rights? I get from that comment that for that SO one can only support a group like that if one is a true practicing member? Where would the black civil rights movement gone if whites and others did not join in to support them? I can see the SO maybe initially wondering, but people have to use their communication skills to clear that matter up. If that relationship is so fragile, I think that they would probably have future problems together anyway. I guess I just do not see the logic in that. I see some fear to be labeled gay and not being able to convince the other they are not and will not "turn" gay. Is that why? The last I heard is that one is born gay and not converted along the way. It is call educating the uneducated, which does take some patience, tolerance and effort.

[Kelly Smith]

"What we do need is strong and intelligent participation in the overall LGBT movement to make sure that our voices are heard and that our specific needs are met. "
Allie, I have a couple more naive but non-trivial questions;

Who is supposed to hear "our voices"? And what are "our specific needs"? Anyone who has the responsibility for meeting "our" "needs" must have commensurate authority.

[AllieSF]

I am a CD who goes out a lot, so my needs are probably the same for most going out of the house CD's and include having the necessary protections while out, ability to use the restroom that we are presenting as, freedom from harassment, to be treated as any other person when out shopping, dining, and doing everyday activities. I am not working, but being treated fairly at work, not necessarily being allowed to dress as the opposite gender at work (I don't have a strong opinion on that one yet), non-discrimination, etc. I can't think of all of the benefits right now that we need overall. For me the recipients of our messages is probably first the politicians who can establish the clear legal rights in laws, legislation and whatever. Then it could be the news media to properly report on us, our issues, needs, and present it in a factual, non humorous or cutting way. Then the general public, employers, service providers. I believe that a lot of the general negative reactions that some people get while out dressed is due to the fact that the general public is uneducated as to what a transgender is and that we are humans and have rights too. We are a varied lot and sometimes it is hard to truly define us in a way that includes most of us and how we present, act and just are.

Since I am not an activist and I am just me living my life doing what I like and enjoy, I am not that well versed in all the issues facing our community. I sometimes think that what I do while out is like an ambassador by meeting, talking, asking and answering questions about them and about me and my lifestyle. The other parts of out "T" spectrum members may have other more specific and pressing needs. A TS enters the realm of legal rights to employment, transitioning at work, decent medical coverage, marriage and the corresponding family legal issues, inheritance, participation in medical decisions, and even just getting medical status of an ill partner.

I hope that answers your questions.

[Persephone]

We can argue all we want among ourselves, but you are right Marleena and we have to put on a united front to the cis/straight world.

Who on earth "declared" that the "GLB world" are our "friends" and the "cis/straight world" is composed of our "enemies"?

On what planet do such labels make sense? Especially since the largest number of "T" folk fall into the CD/TG "categories" and the majority of those folk are "straight."

The title of this thread is "Divide and Conquer" and I can't think of a better example of doing so than by creating an imaginary "war" pitting "GLBT" against "straight"!

Hugs,
Persephone.

[LisaMallon]

Persephone, sadly that is the case.

Look 'straights' are not a homogenous group. They range from people who just don;t care, to people who are accepting, to religious nuts, to homo/trans/lesbian .. phobes.
To people who just like to beat up on weak' people, there is a 'victim' ... get them.

Now everywhere it is different, but here where I live, until the early 90s it was illegal for a male to wear womens clothes. You could be arrested.

It took lots of lobbying to change that. But without the support of the GLB community it would never have happened.
Politicians are politicians, of they can get a cheap vote 'clamping down' on 'deviants' then they will.
But if there is a large powerful group they have to fight then they will support them.

Whether you think you are 'straight' or not, the political realities are that we are classified with them.
And without their greater political clout we would be still be illegal.
So we owe them a debt of gratitude and (naturally) we must support them as well.

Which you should do anyway, since discrimination of any type is wrong.

Sadly there are a lot of 'straights' that hate us. Such as, and especially for you in the US, the religious groups that would have you in jail so fast your feet would not touch the ground.
Then there are the 'conservatives', who just hate all 'deviant' behaviour, except their own (ah lah Edgar Hoover and all those 'anti gay' people who keep getting caught in compromising gay situations, often toilets).
My own personal experience of that was as a kid with a relative in the Catholic Opus Dei ... paedophiles to a core. The amount of times that man (and his friends) tried to get into me was so not funny.

You want to dress up and don't want a SWAT team breaking into your house and arresting you .. support the GLBT groups (note that it took a lot of work by many people to get the 'T' added to that).

So we, CD/TG/TS have a lot of enemies and face quite a few predators.

And have very few supporters, except the GLB community. Don't expect a 'straight' to save you (unless it is Glen Greenwald).

So, frankly, if you are a CD, you had better support them .. or welcome a jail cell.

[Marleena]

Ah but my whole reason for posting this thread is to show the need for all TG people to be under the umbrella. It's also a plea to stick together and show compassion for the other groups. It's probably a pipe dream.

Consider this... TG people are beaten and killed simply because they are different. Wouldn't it be great to have laws changed to have it designated a hate crime? That would afford us more protection. We are a minority group. The general public can't tell a straight crossdresser from a drag queen or a TS. Lisa just pointed out other hate groups and intolerant politicians in her post.

This thread is not against humanity or CIS people, we already live among them. It's about doing battle for equality.

[Kelly Smith]

Marleena;

"Consider this... TG people are beaten and killed simply because they are different. Wouldn't it be great to have laws changed to have it designated a hate crime?"

Why should assaulting me carry a greater penalty than does assaulting anyone else?

"This thread is not against humanity or CIS people, we already live among them. It's about doing battle for equality."

If assaulting Mr. A carries a greater penalty than does assaulting Mr B, in what sense are A and B equal? Is not B being discriminated against?

[Marleena]

One is a minority. A visible, different looking, minority. Remember the days of the KKK??

If your child is TG and acting/looking differently than the other kids would you want them bullied for that? Is it their own fault? The lobby groups help educate too.

Hate motivated crime

What is hate crime?

Hate Crime is a CRIMINAL OFFENCE committed against a person or property that is based upon the victim's race, national or ethnic origin, language, colour, religion, sex, age, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, or any other similar factor.

[Kate Simmons]

My new Avatar (no pun intended) was inspired by this thread Marleena. It is a pic of a TG Pandoran native. It symbolically shows the need for ALL TG folks (everywhere) to support one another. You know our TG Brothers and Sisters may not be limited to Terra and we will find we are more similar than we may think in many ways. ;):)

[Rebecca Star]

This thread is not against humanity or CIS people, we already live among them. It's about doing battle for equality.

The more I think about what were discussing here, while taking a glimpse around my own neck of the woods, it seems the drive to ensure political correctness has gone some what haywire - short circuited if you like.

As an example, the other day I learn the EU has passed a law on web-site cookies. Which means, any web-site which uses cookies and is accessable by anyone who is a resident of the EU, must display a list and explaination about each cookie used. If a site fails to comply and it receives EU traffic, the owner/s could find themselves looking at a legal infridgement suit. I mean seriously, has the world gone complete nuts.

While I understand protecting people's rights is a good thing, surely forcing this type of ruling on say a personal blogger...etc...etc is maddness.

Life doesn't have to be this complicated, so why are we as people allowing it to happen? It seems, the further along we go, the more convoluted and entrenched in useless BS we as a soceity are expected to live with.

IDK, maybe I see the world with rose glasses but our fight to be accepted, doesn't have to be hard. Albeit at some point we have to take a stand and be counted. Becuase if that doesn't happen, if no one is going to take the first step...well... nothing changes if nothing changes.

[AllieSF]

Marleena;

"Consider this... TG people are beaten and killed simply because they are different. Wouldn't it be great to have laws changed to have it designated a hate crime?"

Why should assaulting me carry a greater penalty than does assaulting anyone else?

"This thread is not against humanity or CIS people, we already live among them. It's about doing battle for equality."

If assaulting Mr. A carries a greater penalty than does assaulting Mr B, in what sense are A and B equal? Is not B being discriminated against?

The reason someone came up with defining certain crimes as hate crimes, in my opinion, is to try to focus on the protection of our rights and to discourage those crimes committed against the minorities referenced by Marleena. Assault is assault, and can be caused by an argument, just being vicious and attacking someone because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, or being personally directed toward a minority. To try and reduce the incidences of crimes like assault on a minority some smart person decided that those types of hate crimes should have a stiffer penalty to discourage those crimes and to reinforce everyone's rights to live their lives as they want without fear of any type of attack by others. If someone doesn't like a certain race, religion, minority, so what because that is their right to not like something or someone. However, when they do something illegal against that person because of those differences, they will pay a justifiable higher price.

Does that help?

[AllieSF]

The more I think about what were discussing here, while taking a glimpse around my own neck of the woods, it seems the drive to ensure political correctness has gone some what haywire - short circuited if you like.

As an example, the other day I learn the EU has passed a law on web-site cookies. Which means, any web-site which uses cookies and is accessable by anyone who is a resident of the EU, must display a list and explaination about each cookie used. If a site fails to comply and it receives EU traffic, the owner/s could find themselves looking at a legal infridgement suit. I mean seriously, has the world gone complete nuts.

While I understand protecting people's rights is a good thing, surely forcing this type of ruling on say a personal blogger...etc...etc is maddness.

Life doesn't have to be this complicated, so why are we as people allowing it to happen? It seems, the further along we go, the more convoluted and entrenched in useless BS we as a soceity are expected to live with.

IDK, maybe I see the world with rose glasses but our fight to be accepted, doesn't have to be hard. Albeit at some point we have to take a stand and be counted. Becuase if that doesn't happen, if no one is going to take the first step...well... nothing changes if nothing changes.

Rebecca, I do not think that what we are talking about here is "political correctness", but more about the OP's point that when striving for more civil rights protections, i.e. the same that non-TG's have, and based on the small sizes of our individual parts of the "T" spectrum within the broader, LGBT spectrum, we will accomplish more in the long run for all of "us" by working together, than be being much smaller splinter groups trying to secure similar ends focused on their specific needs. So, I do not see an issue of "political correctness", but one about more equal treatment.

Your EU example can be looked at in another way. To protect the overall majority of people sometimes results in a smaller number of others being unduly burdened. I do not know the details of that law/regulation, but my guess is that it is meant to protect the majority. The bigger we get as a world, the more integrated we become as independent nations where communication, services and commerce cross borders, the more difficult it becomes to control for the benefit of all those that abuse the system for their own personal gain.

I think that your last statement reflects what a lot of people have said here, and to use another analogy, "The turtle goes no where unless it sticks it's neck out". And I really like your "nothing changes if nothing changes".

[kellycan27]

Just as padlocks are meant to keep "honest people" out. Laws are made for law abiding people. Just saying..............................

[sterling12]

Yeah, you would think so wouldn't you? It behooves everyone in The LGBT Community to bail that lifeboat together...or else we will surely sink!

But, in the past, we have had some notable betrayals and defections. Soon to be Former Legislator, Mr. Frank has thrown us under The Bus at least a couple of times. It usually involved something he wanted for The Gay Community, and couldn't get it without abandoning us. (The ENDA Bill is a classic example, but he didn't succeed) We have also had SOME Notable defections from SOME leading Groups that are supposed to be representing us! The President of one of these groups came down to Southern Comfort a few years ago, begging for our money and support. Then, he turned around and dumped all over The T-Community, when he wanted to impress his larger constituency.

So, even though it all makes sense; for some of us who have been around a while, it is very hard to trust a lot of these people. There are some notable groups who have ALWAYS done what's right, but it sure ain't all of them. I would suggest BEFORE anyone throws their support to anyone, or any group, that you do some serious investigation. Past Performance can be a predictor of future behavior, and there are people and groups who have lost credence and credibility. We should be involved, and part of the larger community, just not be so trusting!

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Tess]

Many have no desire to be proactive about any issue, but simply do not want other activists imposing their ideals and agenda upon them.


Veronica, that pretty much sums up my position. Its something that keeps me away from several associations where I may agree with one of the items on their agenda but don't want to support other agenda items. Call me independent.

[Debglam]

Who on earth "declared" that the "GLB world" are our "friends" and the "cis/straight world" is composed of our "enemies"?

On what planet do such labels make sense? Especially since the largest number of "T" folk fall into the CD/TG "categories" and the majority of those folk are "straight."

The title of this thread is "Divide and Conquer" and I can't think of a better example of doing so than by creating an imaginary "war" pitting "GLBT" against "straight"!

Barbara, the rest of my post discusses political alliances. Marleena, appropriately IMO, used a "war" metaphor in her OP, and others (not you) have blown this into some kind of call to arms against others. I don't see it.

I am open to alliances with ANY person of good will no matter what their background is. I do think that we can learn much from the LGB community because they have successfully achieved what the trans community wants. That is to simply be who they are. LGB people are everywhere today. They can openly be gay or lesbian or bisexual or whatever. They are at work, on TV, in the movies, etc. Almost everyone knows someone who is LGB. They have achieved tolerance and to a large extent acceptance. Isn't that what we want whether we are CD or TS or any other shade of trans?

Finally, for the most part the LGB community "get" us. Some don't but overall the LGB individuals get other people that the majority of society (the cis/straight world) don't understand. While there are a lot of allies in the "normal" world, we have a lot more friends in the LGB community.

Some people in the trans community may see nothing in common with the LGB community, and that is fine. BUT(!!!) at best they are fighting for our rights even more than some of us are, and at worst, they have given us a model to copy to reach a level of tolerance/acceptance that we are entitled to.

Deb

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Marleena, The ones that don't like us are probably affraid that we will take over them.