What upsets me and what is not fair nor equal

[Rebecca Star]

Hi All,

I like nothing more than to be able to wear what I like, when I like and not have to concern myself if soceity is going to be upset about my choices. I'm sure eventually that day will come. Whether we'll see it in our life times (I'm 51), I'm not too confident in that happening.

While I appreciate the GG's on our forum who have embraced and taken the time to understand us (CD's), there are a hell of a lot of other women out there who don't. Yet, they'll stand on the highest mountian and scream for equality.

Don't we also have a right to eqaulity too?

I understand that women wen't always treated as equals, and yes there still are chauvinistic pigs in soceity. Fortunately I'm not one of them. I'm happy to have my SO walk beside me - neither behind nor in front of me. We share what I believe is an equality in our relationship.

It just seems like issues like this seem to get so convoluted.

[docrobbysherry]

What I tell my daughter, Becca, is that LIFE is not fair. And, that bad things DO happen to good people all the time! But, we ALL have a choice:

To live our life in fear of what could happen in the worst cases.

Or, try to live your life a way that makes u HAPPY! As long as u aren't hurting others directly, u shouldn't have to fear anyone!

Finally, if u live your life according to the edicts of others, good luck on finding happiness!

[RADER]

Sometimes, it is what side of the fence you are standing on.
In some ways, Woman have an advantage, just their sex alone can open doors
that men will only wish they could; Then men have generally have a pay advantage over
women for years, and the glass ceiling only recently has been challenged if only in a few
cases. Women are the bearer of the species, therefore the raising of children have fallen
upon their shoulders. Men, being stronger by Nature, are left with the burden of supporting
the family financial. And in these time, that is not easy.
Both women and men have battled for years over who is the best; and that argument will
go no for years to come.
Rader

[Ally 2112]

Im not sure if we will ever solve this argument women and men are way different, us on this board may be closer to understanding but ! in the end it may take years and us to push for ourselves like women have (my opin ):) still smilin

[BRANDYJ]

To be honest, I hope we never see the day when men are free to dress, look and act like women. I like it the way it is. Sure, sounds good, dress and go anywhere without anyone batting an eye. But I xherish the difference between men and women and don't want to see a general blend of the sexes when it comes to manor of dress in our society. You may feel it's unfair and it makes you upset. The truth is there are more important things that are still unfair to women then there are things unfair to men. The inner and outer beauty of women is something I cherish and am happy being a semi-closeted crossdresser and indulging in the simple things like their clothes, make up and manor-isms. But men will never come close to what a GG looks like and feels on the inside. I'm happy with what it is.

[Vanessa Storrs]

I thought we had equality. I go out dressed when I want and where I want. I am limited only by my own fears and timidity. We spend too much time and energy worrying about people accepting us rather than simply accepting ourselves for what we are.

[AllieSF]

Hi All,

I like nothing more than to be able to wear what I like, when I like and not have to concern myself if society is going to be upset about my choices. I'm sure eventually that day will come. Whether we'll see it in our life times (I'm 51), I'm not too confident in that happening.

While I appreciate the GG's on our forum who have embraced and taken the time to understand us (CD's), there are a hell of a lot of other women out there who don't. Yet, they'll stand on the highest mountian and scream for equality.

Don't we also have a right to eqaulity too?

I understand that women wen't always treated as equals, and yes there still are chauvinistic pigs in soceity. Fortunately I'm not one of them. I'm happy to have my SO walk beside me - neither behind nor in front of me. We share what I believe is an equality in our relationship.

It just seems like issues like this seem to get so convoluted.

Hi Rebecca. I hear your complaint, which seems so similar to so many others here about not being able to wear what you want. In reality, there is no law in my country prohibiting me from wearing what I want and where I want, unless it breaks some type of indecency laws, or obviously creates a disturbance that negatively impacts others, like wearing sexy short clothes along a busy road and maybe causing traffic jams or accidents. I would have to guess that Australia is pretty much the same with maybe some local variances. That being said, you therefore can wear whatever you want in your country, and if not there come over here, we love Aussies. The women are breaking that glass ceiling and other unfair treatments in the daily lives by doing just that, climbing a mountain and making a scene and demanding their equal rights. Now, if you cannot wear what you like in Australia because the laws for whatever reason are so much more restrictive, then climb your mountains and demand that they change those laws.

The reason it sounds convoluted to you, maybe, is because you just might be too afraid to be yourself when you want and dress as you please. When you get outside and start interacting with people, you will quickly see that the majority of people will pay you no heed and let you pass unscathed. Yes, there may be a few who take the opposite actions and call you out. But, in my reality, people just do not care as long as you do not get in their faces.

I must say that your complaint is an old one here, normally voiced by those who do not go out enough to be able to learn how to enjoy it. I do not know if you go out or not dressed. Now, if you want to dress as a guy at work one day and then the next day as a woman, that could be very problematic for everyone involved. Otherwise, walk out the door and test your culture and help them learn. Instead of complaining, why not join and participate with some pro-active groups in your country who are working toward more specific equal rights for the LGBT community.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Rebecca, two things that I've learned is that,
lifes not fair and nobody ever said that being a lady was going to be easy.

[Kate Simmons]

While I have pretty much mastered understanding the "CD mystique", I have a long ways to go in mastering understanding the "feminine mystique". That's a monumental task even the biggest brains in the world won't attempt to master as they know better. Thankfully the true sweetness of women offsets having to tackle such an impossible undertaking. In simpler terms, leave well enough alone if we know what's good for us.:heehee::)

[DeeDeeB]

I too have been involved in equal rights for all. Started with women's lib in the 60's, gay rights in the 70's, and on from there. I do agree we should have equal rights and we do have equal protection in many states. Hopefully it will be federal soon.

However, I disagree it is women who are our foe. It is men who feel we are degrading ourselves by wanting to be female who are the greatest threat. In a male dominated society like ours, anyone who is genetically male is denying their natural right to dominance when they express feminine charistics. These macho men are much the same as the homophones who are afraid of gays. Personally, I have always looked up to the women in my life and always tried to emulate them. My Mom was a great role model and a classy lady. Though she has passed on, I feel she would support me regardless of who I expressed myself as.

You are who you are, embrace yourself.

Dee :fairy1:

[April_Ligeia]

However, I disagree it is women who are our foe. It is men who feel we are degrading ourselves by wanting to be female who are the greatest threat. In a male dominated society like ours, anyone who is genetically male is denying their natural right to dominance when they express feminine charistics. These macho men are much the same as the homophones who are afraid of gays.
Dee :fairy1:



The real irony of crossdressing is that in one sense, it can make you more "male." If I am out expressing myself, and a guy (it's always a guy) seems to have a problem with me, I stare him down. Even though I am wearing makeup, nail polish, various degrees of women's dress, I still stare down the possible aggressive male the same way I would in "male mode." Also ironically, I think the stare down becomes more intimidating when I'm wearing makeup and the guy who thought he was going to bully me realizes that I really don't give a crap and actually will challenge/fight him.

[jillleanne]

Well all I can say to this is, " What have we, as persons done to establish a better understanding with society regarding our gender issue? Do we go out dressed en femme? Do we participate in any activities, like donating our time to a cause while dressed en femme? What specifically have we done to increase awareness of who we are? Yes, we have Pride parades( personal mixed feelings about that one. )If we all hope something will magically change the way we want it to, and do nothing to help the cause, how do we ever expect it to change in our lifetime?
Get out there and do something about it and maybe, just maybe, someone out there might just notice. Call up a school board and ask if you could do a public speaking seminar in the schools en femme. Attend church en femme. Help at the soup kitchen en femme. The only barriers to acceptance we know are the ones we create for ourselves through our fears, shame, and lack of self acceptance.

[kimdl93]

The biggest obstacles aren't those created by others, but those we impose on ourselves. Dress as you wish and be yourself. If you don't Ned the approval of others you can be free and equal.

[STACY B]

LETTING you wear what you want ? HA,,,,HA,,,,, You just do it ,,,, Ya dont want EVERYBODY doing it ! Hell it wouldn't be anyfun then ! Going against the GRAIN ,,, Be REBEL ,, Go for it ,,, Dont let no one put limits on YOU . Be a man ,,,, CROSSDRESSING is mans work ,,, GEEZ !!!!

[Nigella]

This is a recurring theme amongst the TG community and it does appear that the bulk of responses are from CDs rather that TSs. A TS who is going through full transition will at some point realise that they have to "get out and about", it is called Real Life Experience. They will overcome their fears and confront the "big wide world" full on as female.

A CD will hide behind any excuse, real or imagined, to "safeguard" themselves, family, reputation or any other thing that they hold close.

If you really believe that you need an army behind you to get out and about, albeit a silent army, then you will never overcome the fear that you hold personally. Everything is done in small steps, it does not need support groups, legislation or anything else to help you out and about. For every other group who has found "acceptance", it has been a struggle.

The only advice I can give anyone who feels that they are "hard done by" because there may not be some acceptance, is accept yourself first.

[DaphneGrey]

There is a lot more equality than you realize. In my state for example there are laws that protect TG people. Anti discrimination, job protection, housing, etc... There I am sure are some rows to hoe but frankly I don't understand what all of the talk about unfairness and male dominated society etc is all about.

The simple truth is, there is nothing stopping anyone from going out, wearing what they want, and being who they want. The only thing stopping you is you. Nigella has said it perfectly! "Accept yourself first" that is the key because if you are comfortable with who you are than what others think will not matter.

It seems that what these post are saying more often than not is. I want to be able to do what I want with absolutely no consequence and or judgement. That ladies is an unattainable pipe dream. I hate to tell you this but everybody is sized up and judged by somebody every day. For any number of reasons. Dress, age, weight, societal beauty standards, race, orientation, etc etc etc...... But in the end everybody moves along and lives their lives anyway. Because in the end nobody really cares what you do or wear. And if they did at work for example there are laws that can protect you and organizations you can turn to for support.

I have been out for years to just about everybody people might be taken aback at first, some might not understand, some are stand offish. others are curious. But in the end life goes on for all of them and for me as well. Being out in daily life going here or there most people don't notice and the ones who don't care. There are exceptions but they are few and far between.

As far as shopping goes, there are more than ten retailers I know of that have policies that encourage and protect Transgender people who want to buy their products. MAC, and Victorias Secret among them. MAC even lists ALL GENDERS in their add campaigns.



I will just add this, Men can wear whatever they want! Just as ladies can. There just are not many men that want to wear a skirt on a regular basis. But there are a few and nobody is going to stop them. The reason men do not have more fashion freedom is because they don't want it.

If you want the world to accept you, then get dressed open your door and face it! If you wait for society to wave a flag that says it is alright we all understand and want to celebrate your right to present female, then you are going to be in the closet and lonely for a long time.

Society, Men, Women, or anybody else are not to blame or scapegoat .

[Lynn Marie]

Nothing is equal, get over it. Nobody is going to give you an equal chance. Why should they, that just makes it harder for them. We are all competing for attention here, and nobody in their right mind is going to give anybody else an equal chance if they can prevent it.

Competition is instinctive in all of us and in all living things. We all have to fight for what we want.

[Rachel Morley]

IMHO I think you're pointing in the wrong direction. It seems to me that women (in the non-trans-aware population) are way more likely to be accepting of us than the men are. The "right to equality" that women do not have is for way more serious situations than the perceived inequalities that men have over clothing rights.

The fact is, in theory, we can actually wear whatever we want to. No law is being broken. It's only lack of personal confidence that is preventing you/us to be able to absorb the social stigma ... and I include myself in that too. If I had more self confidence I would probably wear more obvious girls' clothes in boy mode and also not worry about stares when I'm not passing when dressed en femme.

[ReineD]

Don't we also have a right to eqaulity too?


You do, and you are! You are not discriminated against at work for being a man, you can be nurturing at home with your kids and no one will think you are less than a man, and you can even help with the household chores without being judged. :)

But, gender presentation makes a statement about how you fundamentally feel about yourself to most of society, and unfortunately most people (women AND men) do not fully understand gender variance or the many different motives for crossdressing. Heck, a lot of people still have trouble with accepting same-sex preference! Yes CDing is taboo, more I think if someone switches back and forth than a TS who makes the decision to transition. At least after awhile the TS will settle into her new cisgender role (which society understands better than someone who is outside the gender binary) and people won't be as confused. They might even forget she used to present as a man especially if she is on HRT and even more so if she has had FFS.

That said, I don't know how you present. If you present full-on female but still look like a man then people will be confused. If, however, you wish to present as a man who has a feminine taste in clothing (no forms, no makeup, no wig), then I agree that it is not fair, but until we have more education about this in our society, it will remain taboo. People do not understand why a small percentage of the male population would want to wear clothing that our culture designates for women. There are, however, men who do wear man skirts/kilts (http://www.zappos.com/mountain-hardwear-elkommando-kilt-otter) (the equivalent of women wearing jeans), and they can pull it off if they have a confident air about themselves. They might, however, receive a few raised eyebrows in the same way the first women who wore pants must have, but they've got to start somewhere. Women did.

And just so you know, when F2Ms present fully male (I'm not talking about GGs who wear jeans and no makeup), they also suffer discrimination if they are read.

[Kaz]

Rebecca, there is no such thing as equality. In the raw world we are all competing, collaborating, surviving and enduring in our off-spring. We are not equal at all. We all bring different gifts and we all bring different problems.

There are LAWS on equality that are aimed at fairness and their are cultural/moral 'implied' values and principles of equality because it is in our interests to protect people's interests. But these are all social constructs.

So we will always have bigots and narrow minded people who do want equality in any form, and I see these people every day in every aspect of life.

Women have had to fight for some pretty important rights regarding their 'place' in society and they are just about there in our two countries. I would argue that they are now well ahead in most and that they certainly have freedoms that we as men do not have. But then men need to fight for their freedoms too!

I don't see this so much as an 'equality' issue but more about acceptance of human rights... and that is a judgement of societies/communities. I am not equal to Obama, but I expect the same human rights.

[Kathy4ever]

I agree withis statement. I don't knowwhat it is but when I'm wearing fem cloths out my voice seems to be lower or deeper as it was. I feel my shoulders tighten up and feel like I'm flexing the muscles that are no longer there. When I'm home alone that never happens.
The real irony of crossdressing is that in one sense, it can make you more "male." If I am out expressing myself, and a guy (it's always a guy) seems to have a problem with me, I stare him down. Even though I am wearing makeup, nail polish, various degrees of women's dress, I still stare down the possible aggressive male the same way I would in "male mode." Also ironically, I think the stare down becomes more intimidating when I'm wearing makeup and the guy who thought he was going to bully me realizes that I really don't give a crap and actually will challenge/fight him.

[ReineD]

I would argue that they are now well ahead in most and that they certainly have freedoms that we as men do not have. But then men need to fight for their freedoms too!

I don't see this so much as an 'equality' issue but more about acceptance of human rights... and that is a judgement of societies/communities. I am not equal to Obama, but I expect the same human rights.

In what way are the men in our society not free? It's true there are slightly more female college grads than men now and women are getting up there in the work-force ranks, but the top positions are still held by men, and men are not kept from moving ahead just because they are men? Also many employers are now allowing for parental leave as opposed to maternity leave. In what way are men's human rights trodden upon?

[max]

In what way are men's human rights trodden upon?

Divorce court? The lopsidedness of settlements is astounding. Plus the fact that in implementation it actually brings back debtors prisons.

[Shananigans]

Rebecca, I honestly don't have very high hopes. Even in this community, sexism exists. I just stumbled upon a reply to a thread that basically said that anything that I think is of no matter because I am a GG. Sounds a lot like what a man would say, right? You'd never expect that it's a man that likes to present as a woman. You assume a level of respect, understanding, and even community would exist between MTF CDs and GGs.

I don't see as many problems in my generation with it. I am EXTREMELY excited to go out to this club with my SO soon. (She has a dress and jewelry coming in the mail from me for her birthday...so, we're going out!!!) But, I do get very nervous when we are out in the general public, because I am wondering what older men and women are thinking. I'm sure there are younger people that have bad opinions, but for the most part it's kept to themselves.

So, I really do have a lot of hope for this generation and the coming generations...but, not much hope for the older generations.

[Stephenie S]

Divorce court? The lopsidedness of settlements is astounding. Plus the fact that in implementation it actually brings back debtors prisons.

Oh come now Max, you think YOU would agree to raise your kids on your own? I doubt it. So you object to having to pay someone else, your ex, to care for them? You are fully half responsible for them and if you've been supporting your ex also (undoubtedly true), while she cares for YOU and your kids, then you owe her something too. Do you want your kids to have a nice place to live? OK, you gotta pay for that too.

Lopsidedness of settlements? I think that's your fantasy. Divorce is never a happy time, but the numbers show that men come out of divorce far better off than the wives and mothers. Just the facts, dear, just the facts.

S

[ReineD]

Divorce court? The lopsidedness of settlements is astounding. Plus the fact that in implementation it actually brings back debtors prisons.

Women no longer are guaranteed custody of their children. Men have made great inroads in divorce court this past generation. My ex got full custody of my son. The decision was based on what my son wanted, which was to go to high school in LA where the ex was living as opposed to staying in our small town in the midwest. Also, alimony has been pretty well eliminated in favor of temporary spousal maintenance, so that a divorcing wife can have a few years to retrain herself in order to be able to support herself, point being that she is expected to support herself. :)

Men become richer and women become poorer after a divorce: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/25/divorce-women-research

And there is still a male-female disparity in income in the US, with men earning more money: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United _States

[Shananigans]

I don't think most things are very fair or equal in life. My SO and I were talking about college debt, and I told him that I was scared. I told him that I don't think it's right for us (citizens) to bail out banks and automobile companies, yet WE (small people) would totally go to jail.

From what I can see, "fairness" is purchasable. Most things are possible with the right amount of money. But, we also know plenty of rich people that still aren't happy. And, if fairness is earned through monetary means, it's a pretty fragile fairness. We saw Batman recently (SPOILER ALERT/STOP READING IF YOU CARE!!!); and, in the movie, all of the rich people in Gotham lose their money and the city is in anarchy. The citizens start putting all of the rich people on trial, which ends in death no matter which way it goes. It's kind of interesting, because that would be exactly what would happen if your power was through monetary means only (and, not from character). (END SPOLIER/START READING AGAIN). How many times have we seen currency rise and fall? So, I do think most things are possible with the right amount of money. It's never "fair" because there is never going to be equal power among everyone. But, people who get everything because of monetary power walk a very fragile life.

Things are never going to be just as you want them to be. People will never treat you exactly as you want to be treated. These are are truths that I have always been able to rely on...unfortunately.

[Kaz]

In what way are the men in our society not free? It's true there are slightly more female college grads than men now and women are getting up there in the work-force ranks, but the top positions are still held by men, and men are not kept from moving ahead just because they are men? Also many employers are now allowing for parental leave as opposed to maternity leave. In what way are men's human rights trodden upon?

Hi Reine, I think Shans has caught my 'gist' a bit... in a totally male world there is no concept of equality, just a token pass at procedures and regulation that the privileged have leave to bypass with impunity... these are clubs within clubs and they all have their rules. To be in one you sacrifice your freedom, but you gain. Golf clubs, etc.. are all used to seek and buy privilege and inequality.

Positive discrimination has destroyed many male careers but has, positively, brought many more women into senior management and I so hope things change for the better... but what I see at the moment is just more of the same. Cliques and clubs still predominate, it is just that their membership has changed.

Bringing this back to CDs... I was trying to make the point that societally, this is how we behave... so how can there ever be true equality? You say that it is fine for guys to stay at home and raise the kids etc... We are a long way away from that yet! We may be getting there, but in the UK this is still a battle to be won. My wife claimed her rights not to have to work decades ago... I am the male, the breadwinner, the knight in shining armour, the one they all turn to to get things sorted out - and if I fail? Oh boy, please don't let me fail!

I was listening to a Radio 4 broadcast earlier today - an interview with a brilliant singer/songwriter called Rumer. She is fabulous! She has just recorded an album of covers of male songs with an emotional content because she wanted to figure out how that worked from a male perspective. A great album, but what got to her the most was that men could write lyrics like this and be... weak. She wants men to be strong, confident, all the things of myth. She found it deeply disturbing to realise that men have worries, concerns, angst, fears... we sometimes want to be protected and nurtured and just... loved for who we are and not who society expects us to be.

So we are not equal and there is no equality... in 2012, we still have slavery in the UK. It is called forced marriage. This is driven by patriarchal societies where the men rule. But we have legislation in the UK that diminishes the rights of fathers, as in the USA; sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad.

The grass is never greener on the other side. It just looks different.

:)

[Eryn]

Also, alimony has been pretty well eliminated in favor of temporary spousal maintenance, so that a divorcing wife can have a few years to retrain herself in order to be able to support herself, point being that she is expected to support herself. :)

I find it ironic that, in today's modern world, men are expected to maintain themselves in readiness for the workforce while women are not if they become married. With the divorce rate over 50% it seems foolish for a woman to cut off her ability to support herself, yet many seem to do so. I was raised in a family where both parents were employed and whose friends were similarly situated so perhaps my role models were different than the norm.


And there is still a male-female disparity in income in the US, with men earning more money: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United _States

With the current disparity in university graduation rates this income disparity will close quickly, particularly as old guard management retires and the pool of replacements increasingly includes more women than men. Look at how many high-profile CEO positions are now being filled by women, something unheard of even 20 years ago. Fortune magazine executive editor Stephanie Mehta says "there’s a pipeline of women coming into leadership positions that’s very, very deep and very, very wide. There are women sitting just below the CEO position at these Fortune 500 companies and many of them are poised to lead Fortune 500 companies when there are openings and movement.”

[Shananigans]

I find it ironic that, in today's modern world, men are expected to maintain themselves in readiness for the workforce while women are not if they become married. With the divorce rate over 50% it seems foolish for a woman to cut off her ability to support herself, yet many seem to do so. I was raised in a family where both parents were employed and whose friends were similarly situated so perhaps my role models were different than the norm.

I have been told more times than I can count that the "problem with this world is that women don't take care of the house and kids." I've been told SOOOOOOOOOOO many times that why everything is f*cked up is because women are now working. It's actually a REALLY popular trope.

I always like to talk about my last church service with my mother, where the preacher was explaining exactly this...and, making every hard-working female feel like a bad mother.

I'm not sure what his solution would have been for single mothers. I have a very vivid memory of a summer before high school where my mother and I had no house...we were basically camping for a few months lol. If she did her wifely thing and just stayed home with me, I'm not sure what we would have done. Welfare? But, I guess she's technically a sinner and a bad mom in his eyes...not sure why she goes to church. But, that's all I'm going to say about that situation.

Many, many people blame the divorce rate on women working outside of the homes.

As far as the Fortune 500 having 18 women on the list (lol, btw)...I'll just leave this website here: http://www.unifem.org/gender_issues/women_poverty_economics/

You have to remember that not every woman in living in Western society, and that there is a really big world out there that has to taken into account. A woman in Africa is still my sister...I'm still fighting for all women.

I also like cracked.com. I'll point you to #4 and #1 on this list. http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html

The pure fact is that again...we aren't treated how we want to be treated by other people. And, that things aren't exactly how we want them to be. I'm sure we can find plenty of research and articles on discrimination and stereotyping of every gender (including TG), every race, and virtually every demographic. I'm willing to bet it exists everywhere...but, obviously, some have it worse than others. But, if you are THAT person...well, it's probably worse for you, because it affects you personally.

[ReineD]

I find it ironic that, in today's modern world, men are expected to maintain themselves in readiness for the workforce while women are not if they become married. With the divorce rate over 50% it seems foolish for a woman to cut off her ability to support herself, yet many seem to do so. I was raised in a family where both parents were employed and whose friends were similarly situated so perhaps my role models were different than the norm.

This is true. I'd do anything to go back and alter our decision to have me stay at home. We made this decision because the ex travelled so much and my job was so time-consuming. Before my kids were born my work week was about 50-55 hours (I was dedicated to my work especially at month end and year end, and this is why I rose through the ranks). And I dare say that my kids would have been just fine with babysitters. As least now my financial future would be secure.

[Rebecca Star]

I am the male, the breadwinner, the knight in shining armour, the one they all turn to to get things sorted out - and if I fail? Oh boy, please don't let me fail!

I'm in a similar position. While my SO does have a job, her hours have been cut back to practically nothing. Albeit, I'm self employed (I'm trying real hard not to make this sound sexist ok). But even when she was working more hours, what she was making wasn't that much. So for the last five years the weight of keeping a roof over our head, food on the table, clothes on our backs, bills paid etc...etc has fallen to my sole responsibility. These type of pressures can be emmense, especially if I have a couple of bad months back to back. Some months it's day in day out stress.

As a guy, while I suck this up and just carry on, I just wish it didn't all fall back on my shoulders by the current proxy soceity sets on me, just because I'm a man.

[Shananigans]

It's a little hard to relate to male lead/breadwinning households, because that has never been in my life. I am quite aware that I won't earn as much in my profession in comparison to my counterparts...but, that's also an incentive for me to contract with my profession. I think I could easily make more than the males in my profession, but it's probably going to take a bit more creativity.

It's that whole strive for equality (or, even more prosperity). Things may never be exactly how I want them, but I think I do have the resources for success. In all likelihood, I will probably greatly outearn the salary of my boyfriend...but, I would never say anything against him for it. It has been hard now that he is being paid in "experience" (lol), but I guess I kind of am too.

I see a bit of sexism now that my classes are headed into obstetrics. The guys in my class basically get to hang around, so they aren't "forced" on a patient. I told them AND my professor straight up that if it were me in the bed pushing out the baby, I'd have them right in there. But, I am going to keep them busy anyway. I know where they'll be, so when I'm working until 10pm and worrying about class the next day...I'll at least have two male assistance if they aren't doing anything. Standing around studying while I'm messing with crazy women in labor?...Mmhmmm, we'll see.

I'm doing my part for fairness and equality...someone may even be transgendered lol. It's me and one dude that are in competition for top of the class. He likes to tell me how he'll be studying in OB rotation and I'll need to catch up. I told him that he just earned the title of my personal assistant. We really do love each other though... :-/

I worry what would happen if my SO's boss found out that he is TG. I read something like in 39 states it was still okay to be fired over something like that. Not sure if that's true. But, I do think it would affect him and his earning potential. But, he's creative. People see me and see a pretty face...it's always "surprising" how intelligent I am. I also saw a long time ago that my male counterparts would get raises and better positions, and all the women were stuck trying to break that glass ceiling. So, I see that my partner will also face similar troubles...but, my optimism tells me we are smart enough to handle it.

I think that equality and fairness is something that you have to actually Take in the work place. No one is handing it out it seems. You might get a smile and a pat on your back from your boss who accepts TG people and "diversity"...but, you'll probably see that the acceptance only goes so far...unless you just take it. Many of us are lucky to be where we are...but, in business, no one really seems to just get respect and power because politics make it so. I don't even think men even have it That easy. So, there might be some grand movement for TG rights..,but, it won't guarantee you success at work just as it hasn't guaranteed success for women. But, there are enough of us that we started to tale a little bit more and a little bit more. Is it 50/50 equal? Hell no. TG people will have it even harder because it's a pretty small group of people. Though I don't like that sexuality (LGBQ) is associated to gender (Trans)...it DOES make the group larger. And, having a larger group with a lot of respected people means you'll have more of the means to take what you want in business and life. It won't always be exactly what you want, but I'm assuming we are all doing reasonably well if we are writing electronically on this forum.

(Some of this is brought to you from being subjected to my dad's business/motivational lectures...having his own business means that I have to hear something like this pretty much every time I talk to him....so, now, I'm repeating it...ugh).

[sometimes_miss]

In what way are the men in our society not free? It's true there are slightly more female college grads than men now and women are getting up there in the work-force ranks, but the top positions are still held by men, and men are not kept from moving ahead just because they are men? Also many employers are now allowing for parental leave as opposed to maternity leave. In what way are men's human rights trodden upon?

This is the common female perception of a man's life; that we can do whatever we want, whenever we want. Nope. Let me give you a few examples; first of which is, did you register for the draft, ever? I did. Second. My role in life is to be a workhorse. No option. I can't decide to get married and take time off to be a mom. Third. Dangerous situation? Women and children out first, I get to die. Fourth; 'be a man'. Stand and fight no matter what the odds. No forgiveness for being afraid (for which women of course are given a free pass). Bully picks on you? Keep fighting back no matter how many times he beats the crap out of you. Oh, and did I mention, never, ever, cry? Yup. The only time a man is allowed to cry is at his family member's funeral, and that's it. The list goes on and on, not to mention, of course, that well known problem we here all face that if we choose to embrace any feminine behavior, it pretty much kills off any chance of attracting a woman. Sure, sure, you can always brag about all the accepting women here; but out of how many billion? But of course a woman can embrace male behavior, that's perfectly alright. And, of course, there are simply jobs that men won't get because women don't want us to have them, because you all think every guy is a potential horny pervert; how many guys can get a job as a nurse on a post partum unit? Or be a school nurse in an all girl school? Of course, a woman wouldn't have any problem at all with the reverse! I could go on, but I think everyone gets the point; being a male has it's problems as well as being a female does; they're just different problems.

And for Shananigans, the payscale is even; the main reason for a discrepancy in salaries is longevity (all but one of the women I work with make more than I do, they've all been there longer); the reason many women don't make as much as men is because they take time off from their 'careers', not to mention that they often don't put in the extra hours and off hours time to kiss up to the boss. Do you really think every guy who goes out and plays golf (and intentionally loses to the boss and laughs at his jokes) enjoys that? You can look it up; female college graduates make the same as males do; which of course demonstrates, that if you're serious about a career, you have an equal chance. Maybe not equally represented in every field, but there are successful women in virtually every profession, the big problem is that there simply aren't an equal number of each sex in every area of employment, and that's usually due to the choice of the individuals. The job openings are there, but you won't find a lot of women applying for, say, offshore drilling jobs, and you won't find a lot of men applying for jobs at the cosmetics counters.

[ReineD]

This is the common female perception of a man's life; that we can do whatever we want, whenever we want.

No, I didn't say that. Kaz said that men weren't free, and I took it that she meant they were less free than women.

Neither men nor women can do what they want. They both make their own individual sacrifices in this society. They live on different planes, even though the gender gap in some areas (work, roles at home), is narrowing. The grass is never greener on the other side. Just different. :)



... in a totally male world there is no concept of equality, just a token pass at procedures and regulation that the privileged have leave to bypass with impunity... these are clubs within clubs and they all have their rules. To be in one you sacrifice your freedom, but you gain. Golf clubs, etc.. are all used to seek and buy privilege and inequality.

OK, I see. :) You're talking about the pecking order among males, where it seems as if the more powerful and macho rise to the top. Women have their own pecking orders/subclasses too. Some working women judge stay-at-home moms, and vice versa. Some well-to-do or powerful women don't associate with the less educated or financially disadvantaged women. In the workplace, the female boss will not socialize with the secretary. And in some circles and age groups, the pecking order is established through sheer looks.

[Karren H]

I have a friend who's favorite saying is... "life sucks.... then you die" God he's a depressing person to be around... I choose not let stuff upset me... especially what I can't directly control... I make my own happiness and its independent of the clothing I wear... right or wrong. fair or not.....

[Rebecca Star]

I have a friend who's favorite saying is... "life sucks.... then you die" God he's a depressing person to be around... I choose not let stuff upset me... especially what I can't directly control... I make my own happiness and its independent of the clothing I wear... right or wrong. fair or not.....

No denying, life is what you make of it. And knowing there is likely someone else deeper in cr#p than oneself, kinda puts an entire different slant on things. Actually, just reading your comments now, kinda makes me go what I thinking with this thread. Either way, it got some good discussions going, so again another negative is turned into a positive... yay :)

[sometimes_miss]

I have a friend who's favorite saying is... "life sucks.... then you die" God he's a depressing person to be around... I choose not let stuff upset me... especially what I can't directly control... I make my own happiness and its independent of the clothing I wear... right or wrong. fair or not.....

Karren, for most people life is about 95% drudgery with a few wonderful moments tossed in, and some bad ones as well. Most people don't have a job they enjoy; it's just something they tolerate doing so they can eat and have a place to live. Then socially, their responsibilities outweigh the fun activities by a far percentage. I think that's what your friend is alluding to.
In contrast, I have a job I love. I get to spend lots of time in clothes that make me feel good. So, I can tolerate the moments when I'm unhappy because I don't have a girlfriend. For me, the good far outweighs the bad. I can only wish other's lives were more of the same.

[Pythos]

Um....
I am SO TIRED of people saying life is not fair.

Instead of spouting off with this tired old line, how about doing something about it.

Better yet, look up what the Great George Carlin thought about people that said this line.

What I have noticed (present company hopefully excluded), that those that spout off that line, are the same people that MAKE life unfair, and support those things and actions that make life unfair. We stupid humans. We already have nature trying to wipe us out, and make life unfair, why do we want to support that? How about as I suggested doing things to make life MORE fair?

[Rebecca Star]

I am SO TIRED of people saying life is not fair.


Ummm... Your taking me out of context and actually reading something into my post which is not there.

If you go back and read my post, you'll see it's about "equality". Which means 'equal'. A explaination of equality can be found here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/equality?s=t

[AllieSF]

Sometimes_miss: I think it is more like, for "some" people..." not 95%. I believe that it is all about attitude toward life and oneself. If one is a melancholy person, they are down about everything and many times think that the world is against them. A complaint once in awhile is natural and fine, but constant complaints from one person has over the years taught me that they are probably not happy about anything. Most of the people that I know and associate with are content with their lives and work. Sure, some may have a hang up about part of it, but they always seem to deal with it and get on with life. Who really wants to be with someone who is always down and has nothing but issues, sometimes self inflicted issues?

Rebecca: Actually, I think that Pythos is not far from the truth. Complaining about equality in life is sometimes another way of complaining about life. Though you were, in my opinion, questioning and complaining about the lack of equality between men and women, isn't that a pretty general area that could also be considered "life" too, at least a part of life?

Pythos: I have to say that you have come a long way too. Didn't you used to complain all the time about a similar lack of equality (lack of rights) where a woman could wear men and women's clothes freely and a man could not?

[Pythos]

OH no, Rebecca, my response was not to you. It was to the one or two people that said that dated, and horrible line. From what I have seen you make some cogent points. I too argue for true equality when it comes to self expression.

[kellycan27]

Ummm... Your taking me out of context and actually reading something into my post which is not there.

If you go back and read my post, you'll see it's about "equality". Which means 'equal'. A explaination of equality can be found here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/equality?s=t

I find it kind of ironic that men, who were the architects of inequality ( in regard to women) in the first place are now crying foul when the playing field seems to be leveling off some. Women execs. women police officers, women soldiers. NOW... you ( in the general) want equality! Now.... it's not fair!

[Aprilrain]

I'm in a similar position. While my SO does have a job, her hours have been cut back to practically nothing. Albeit, I'm self employed (I'm trying real hard not to make this sound sexist ok). But even when she was working more hours, what she was making wasn't that much. So for the last five years the weight of keeping a roof over our head, food on the table, clothes on our backs, bills paid etc...etc has fallen to my sole responsibility. These type of pressures can be emmense, especially if I have a couple of bad months back to back. Some months it's day in day out stress.

As a guy, while I suck this up and just carry on, I just wish it didn't all fall back on my shoulders by the current proxy soceity sets on me, just because I'm a man.

she probably doesn't make that mush because of the male dominated society we live in where woman consistently earn less than males for the same work.

[Stephenie S]

I find it kind of ironic that men, who were the architects of inequality ( in regard to women) in the first place are now crying foul when the playing field seems to be leveling off some. Women execs. women police officers, women soldiers. NOW... you ( in the general) want equality! Now.... it's not fair!

Yay, Kelly. Right on, girl!

[Shananigans]

Kelly just killed me...that was awesome.

But, on a for real note...I love competition and that we have to work for things. I love that women have made such progress. If anything, I see women around me putting in More hours and sticking in their careers Longer than our male counterparts. So, I'm not sure that is the reason why women earn less. I can imagine that pregnancy is a part of it. I worked in research labs...was always on a project...at the beginning of signing on to a project, my boss says, "Alright...you're on this...but, don't go and get pregnant on me!" For real? Seriously? I mean, I know I couldn't be pregnant and on that project, but he didn't tell me male counterparts, "Now, don't go all testosterone on me and get thrown in jail!" I am also sure that's why a guy that was there for less time earned higher wages and was promoted to a higher position...even though I trained him. Fact is, I was just a ticking time bomb of a uterus waiting for a baby explosion.

Please note, it's two years later and I still don't have kids. Oh, it all just gives me the fire under my a$$ to succeed, so I do truly thank him.

I hope TG people that get that same treatment (though it's usually worse 9 times out of 10) get that same fire under their a$$ to succeed. People honestly ARE hoping that you will submit to inequality and just shut up. It's all over the world, really. But, what truly pisses people off isn't to get angry about the inequality and complain about it....just use it all as motivation to become better than them. Then, thank them personally.

Things may not be fair, but sometimes it can give you just the right motivation.

[STACY B]

Ill tell all that stuff about woman an men an the work place ,,,Hell I got an older sisster that allways made Man Money ,, She will out do any man in her way ,,, An Im talking bout managment ,,, Not Labor ,, She has allway been the boss in a MAN world . Feared threw out the land she was .. An still at it ,,,Nuttin But Bizzness from 9 -5 ! I stear clear of her at work ,,, I seen her break a man down to tears . So dont tell me woman cant do it ,,Its just crazy to me cuz I grew up with woman doing the same as men ,,, I guess its all in where ya live ?

[kellycan27]

Ill tell all that stuff about woman an men an the work place ,,,Hell I got an older sisster that allways made Man Money ,, She will out do any man in her way ,,, An Im talking bout managment ,,, Not Labor ,, She has allway been the boss in a MAN world . Feared threw out the land she was .. An still at it ,,,Nuttin But Bizzness from 9 -5 ! I stear clear of her at work ,,, I seen her break a man down to tears . So dont tell me woman cant do it ,,Its just crazy to me cuz I grew up with woman doing the same as men ,,, I guess its all in where ya live ?

I don't think it's question of a woman not being "able" to do it, but rather them being "allowed" to do it. There's a big difference. While things are changing, men still hold the high ground, and apparently some of them don't want to relinquish it without a fight.

[STACY B]

I don't think it's question of a woman not being "able" to do it, but rather them being "allowed" to do it. There's a big difference. While things are changing, men still hold the high ground, and apparently some of them don't want to relinquish it without a fight. Got cha,,, They can have my vote,,, Just show me to the shoe dept,,,

[Ressie]

What really is fair? We all have different talents, different levels of intelligence, common sense, wealth, charisma, motivation, health, neurosis, on and on. Enacting fairness laws doesn't change any of that. Are we talking about fairness or envy? Are you envious of women because they can wear whatever they want? Maybe some women want some of men's attributes and abilities so I guess it's fair. I see it as jealousy... one of the 7 deadly sins.

[ReineD]

...at the beginning of signing on to a project, my boss says, "alright...you're on this...but, don't go and get pregnant on me!" for real? Seriously? I mean, i know i couldn't be pregnant and on that project, but he didn't tell me male counterparts, "now, don't go all testosterone on me and get thrown in jail!"

lol! :)

I was told the same thing. I did get pregnant though and left ... 9 years later. But, 3 guys I worked with quit way before I got pregnant, so I still was there longer than them.

[Rebecca Star]

Rebecca: Actually, I think that Pythos is not far from the truth. Complaining about equality in life is sometimes another way of complaining about life. Though you were, in my opinion, questioning and complaining about the lack of equality between men and women, isn't that a pretty general area that could also be considered "life" too, at least a part of life?

I'm glad you included "sometimes" :)

While I've had, at times, one hell of sh#tty life. Experiences which would have most people curled up in foetal position in a corner uncontrollably sobbing, If anyone has a reason/excuses the think "life is not fair" I have have them. But... You know what?

Apart from a few little hiccups (bumps) life throws at us once in a while, my life, our life, is pretty damn good. If things were equal, then life for me would be grand!

[Kate T]

(SPOILER ALERT/STOP READING IF YOU CARE!!!); and, in the movie, all of the rich people in Gotham lose their money and the city is in anarchy. The citizens start putting all of the rich people on trial, which ends in death no matter which way it goes. It's kind of interesting, because that would be exactly what would happen if your power was through monetary means only (and, not from character). (END SPOLIER/START READING AGAIN).

Shan, I think this was called the French revolution. Or was it the Bolshevik revolution?

Sorry, that was harsh I know.

It does however I agree amaze me that we continue to hang onto our "free market" dream despite numerous historical real examples of it's failure and the pain and suffering that it can cause.