Think before you Post???

[Silentpartner GG SO]

A recent thread has prompted me to start this thread and I am putting this in MTF because I'm not convinced that the few people who are guilty of this bother with the Loved Ones Area - they probably dont have any loved ones. Unfortunately I've seen this scenario play out several times now and it bothers me a lot.

A new GG comes to this forum, having just learnt or been told that her SO is a Crossdresser. Rather than run for the hills screaming "perv! perv - get out of the house" she has taken the time to search the net and found this site where she comes seeking some sort of understanding, help and advice and dare I say, reassurance that what she has just learnt is not necessarily the end of the world or her marriage. After all this forum advertises itself as A Community for Crossdressers, their Family and Friends.
The newly arrived GG is likely to be confused, upset, angry, hurt, frightened - all or any of those things and maybe more. Whilst nobody really expects erveryone to wrap her in cotton wool and say "there there, everything is going to be fine" I really do not understand why some people think it is ok to reply to this plea for help with a downright nasty, put-down post. Its not clever, or funny, its mean and thoughtless and it does the CD/TG/TS community a serious dis-service.

Does anyone really want it on their conscience that they may have driven away an SO/GG who was trying to understand YOU? who was trying to find a way to make her marriage work in the light of the revelation she has just had dropped on her? when she really was genuinely interested in finding out about what CD'ing was about and how it could fit into her marriage, her life and her relationship with her CD'ing SO?

The responses given to this newly arrived GG/SO could just be the difference between her trying to accept her husband/s CD'ing or not - to offer advice or make comments in reply to these new posters is IMO quite a responsibility so maybe, if you dont have something constructive, encouraging or helpful to say, perhaps it's better to not say anything at all.

[Shananigans]

Good post, SP. It really felt good when I came here that I had a bunch of people that were willing to talk to me. My SO was in the closet at the time, so I was in the closet with him out of respect for his privacy. A lot of GGs here don't have a lot of people to talk to about these issues out of respect for their SO's privacy. But, a lot of people don't realize that many GGs are just as far in the closet as the CDs that they are close to. For the most part, people here are really nice. But, it seems like there are anti-GG threads every few days, and anti-GG posts on a pretty regular basis. It is a "loud minority" as I like to call it, because those posts grab your attention if you are a GG and you take it to heart. While it's nothing new or surprising to me to see men verbally abusing women for being women, I do get rather irritated when I realize that this place is probably one of the only communities out there for GGs that have a CDing SO that wants privacy. I try to remember that it is probably a very wounded person that would hate on other people based on how they were born, but at the same time dress in the role of which is designated for the people that they are bashing. It's truly a mindf*ck psychologically.

I do believe there is a Genetic Male section for people that do not want female opinions? But, I'm going to assume it's not very popular. The majority here are in touch with their inner female, and don't hold animosity towards her. I'm not sure what is going on with people psychologically that bash on women, but want to dress and "pass" as one. I can assume it's nothing good. And, it does make me sad. But, I'd honestly rather see more people stay here and leave with a positive view on transgenderism. I'm guessing most people here do too. It's a shame, but what are you going to do?

On a side note, sometimes things can be said that are kind of "man bashing." I know I'm guilty of it. But, it's basically like, "Ugh...men...they're all alike! Boys are gross." I think it can be equally hurtful...and, in a way it excuses unwanted male behavior. Basically, if a man is doing something "typical"...and, you write it off as "typical male behavior," you have made an excuse for that behavior. So, in a backwards way, you said it was okay because "that's how men are." But, if you hold up men to a higher standard, and don't excuse any behavior based on gender, I think the behavior becomes less excusable.

So, I think we all kind of can take away from it that we need to treat each other better. This is supposed to be a place that is a bit more immune of gender scrutiny, but there can be animosity both ways. My guess is that we all have been influenced by society more than we are willing to admit, and we didn't leave it at the door when we came here.

I wish we didn't really have to have different "sections"...but, I can understand people that have partners on here wanting to ask things in private. (I can understand it for the GM section and the FAB section...or, all the other closed sections). But, yeah, I once got blasted on here because someone was answering one of my replies like I was a newbie crossdresser...so, I corrected him that I was a GG. Then, I got put on blast that I didn't have GG in my name. I did it because I didn't really feel it was necessary to have that distinction...but, it's not always appreciated. It seems like there aren't many good solutions lol.

I usually roll my eyes when people tell us to just love each other...but, I guess that's what I'm saying :facepalm:

[Tara D. Rose]

I agree with you Silentpartner. I think I am very sure of the thread for which you are speaking of here. I just now got through reading all of the post on that thread. It was just the one poster that did a nasty unprovoked attack on this new GG member. Yes maybe she may be gone, Just MAY be, I sincerely hope not. It has been 3 or 4 days now since her last activity. We all know who this member is that came in search. It is a tragedy that she apparently read that one demeaning post, and others responded to it. I didn’t post on that thread. But, there was over 109 very positive and uplifting and very educational post’s from so many members helping her to learn more about her CD husband. I personally feel a heartfelt sorrowfulness for what transpired on that thread.

I do want to offer a suggestion though. How about some of the GG’s that have been here a long time and have so much understanding of cd’s and GG’s that are living with news of their husbands, etc. I think because we cannot call her up on the phone, I think it may be a good idea for GG’s on here to send her a PM, offering sincere apologies on behalf of the whole site, and to explain that sometimes a mean post will come up that possibly made her go away. I feel that under the circumstances , that it would be best if only GG’s pm her, for she can relate to gg’s more than cd’s at this point in her life. Members like ReineD, Shannanigans, Eryn, Babeba, yourself as well as other GG’s could send her a PM asking her to come back. I think it should only be GG’s to this, for right now I don’t think she has much faith in us right now.

I hope she did come back onto her thread and see how the offender was dealt with, so she could see that the offender’s post was not the norm here, and she will be given the respect she so deserves. I can say and I think I speak for a majority of cd’s here in the fact that we want her back.



Tara-mxy

[Eryn]

I didn't like the post to which you are referring, as I stated in that thread. Other members commented on it before I got there and I believe that they made it clear that the disrespect showed by that one poster was not the consensus of all the members.

I do have one very serious request. Please, please, please, if you see a disrespectful post like that use the little triangular "Report Post" icon at the lower left side of the post to report it. The mods are human and we can't read everything. If a member reports an offending post early we can deal with it quickly and effectively. If it is allowed to remain for a time and is commented on by others it becomes much more difficult to deal with the offensive post without also removing the positive responses from other members.

I'd rather have the offending member mad at me for deleting their post than have the offending member plus a half dozen constructive members mad at me, if you catch my drift!

Thanks, Eryn

EDIT: I note that the OP hasn't been logged on in four or five days, yet the offending post I mentioned was made early this morning. It can't be the reason that the OP left unless she's been reading the forum without logging in.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Tara thanks for your response - I agree that this situation doesnt happen very often but I've seen it before here and it is upsetting.

Your suggestion of the PM's is a good one but unfortunately the particularly GG doesnt have many posts yet and isnt there a restriction on PM's until the 10 post mark? or is this just a one way restriction? I'm not sure of that one.

Generally speaking, this place is great for support and help - my issue really is in the way in which very new members are treated - I do think they need a little TLC to start with.

Shan I can relate to the "man bashing" thing - I'm sure we're all guilty of it to some degree or other - I know I am :brolleyes:
I like to think I'd hold off any sort of bashing if I were addressing someone who was having real issues, marriage/relationship threatening issues.

We'd do best just to love each other - regardless of gender! :hugs:

Eryn, point taken - and I for one think the mods here do a brilliant job keeping the site virtually "nasty" free. I do tend to worry that maybe its just me who finds a certain post offensive so dont hit the report button when perhaps I should.

[Lorileah]

I don't know the post that is being referred to here, but I hope I am never the one who would do that. I usually take the GG's side ;) However, I know what SP is saying and while it may be only one or two who do it, it becomes a blatant post. There are a lot of angry people in this world and why a few here seem to believe that the TG's are always in the right I will never know. I want the GGs to know that this is a good place to come and talk and that some of us will try and help them understand (as much as we understand which often isn't much). It isn't limited to the Loved Ones section either. And, not to be mean, it usually is a thought out post. It is just hat the thought was directed to be venomous. Us old folks here have learned who to read and who to ignore in that case.

[GaleWarning]

Good post, SP.

I do believe there is a Genetic Male section for people that do not want female opinions? But, I'm going to assume it's not very popular.

I do not know which post you are referring to, but I concur with your sentiments. Too many of us care only about ourselves. We ought to show more consideration for the feelings and opinions of the other members, especially the GGs.

When I joined the GM section, I imagined that it would be a place where we could forget our femme sides and instead talk about blokey stuff. But it's not like that at all! So I tend not to post there anymore.

[Eryn]

We do get reports of questionable posts that are actually within the rules, but most of the time there is a problem that can be addressed. If you report something that you think is amiss what you are doing is getting a second opinion from a moderator. If we agree that something is wrong we will take action. If not, there is no harm done.

[Kaz]

As this is in the MtF section... I think I may have been a 'constructive member' on this (Eryn will put me right!). Sometimes, instincts are to say 'don't get involved', but sometimes action is required and then men (even if they want to be women) will pile in to protect. It is what is in our blood (or rather genes/hormones) - protect.

We do all need to get more emotionally intelligent I think and many thanks to SP for raising this in a sensitive and reflective manner. I also think Shan nailed a few key issues as usual... I have learned a lot from reflecting on this and this thread has helped me a lot in terms of self-awareness.

:)

[BLUE ORCHID]

You sure hit the nail on the head some times a stupid comment can be the differance
between a happy ending or a sad ending.

[kimdl93]

I recall the thread SP is referring to and a couple of replies that I thought were less than helpful or constructive. It would be nice, but probably wishful thinking, to ask that everyone who comments to reflect for a moment, rather than offering a harsh, hypercritical or deragatorymcomment. I know how tempting it can be to offer up a glib one liner...but as in the case of a new GGAlooking for help, that's probably the least helpful and potentially most destructive possible response.

[BRANDYJ]

Brilliant post Silent. To add my thoughts about threads posted by new GG members that came here for help, education and someone to talk to. I find it insensitive to refer to her husband in the feminine. She is new and not used to male crossdressers referring to themselves and each other "she or her". Please refer to the new GG's husband or SO as him or he. It really puts me off when I see that in responses from otherwise well meaning people. I also gringe when I see a CD start off with how wonderful it is and that he and his wife go out in public all the time, or that he dresses 24/7. I mean...talk about things that will run a scared, worried, hurt GG off before she can learn anything. She does not need to hear how deeply some of us might be invloved. Give her time to adjust and begin to understand that she and her SO are not alone before she even sees her guy in a dress! I see to many insensitive posts like this with our new GG's and there intro or first thread asking for help. You are not helping calling her husband a "SHE" .

[TxKimberly]

I'm not sure I've seen the offending post yet, but think i know which thread you are talking about. If so, I know that I and a few others told her that she had come to the right place if she was confused because we ALL are here! I hope that you didn't think this was offensive? My thoughts were to reply with a light touch and some humor, and who knows, maybe give her a smile - something that she could clearly use.

[TGMarla]

Thank you for posting this. You're so right.

[Shananigans]

I do have one very serious request. Please, please, please, if you see a disrespectful post like that use the little triangular "Report Post" icon at the lower left side of the post to report it. The mods are human and we can't read everything.

I COMPLETELY forgot this button exists!! Uhhhh...this was a helpful reminder lol. ((Ashamed I forget silly things)).

[Debglam]

I don't know which post you are referring to but I certainly know the story. My SO had a similar thing occur. She asked a legitimate question and some responses were downright nasty. A nice way to help someone struggling with this stuff.

This forum is a pretty well oiled machine but maybe something like this would work: I'm on another forum and they have a "Kid Gloves" section where the rules are clearly to "make nice." Maybe something like that here???

GG's Always Welcome!
Debby

[ReineD]

I also hate to see the uncaring and selfish posts, but I agree with Eryn. Surely everyone understands that this is the internet and there are bound to be one or two people who just don't get it, to put it nicely. I should think that most new members would be able to see this especially when other members take exception to the off-putting posts, plus there are over one hundred positive responses.

Still, I don't blame you for being upset and wanting to air this out.



This forum is a pretty well oiled machine but maybe something like this would work: I'm on another forum and the have a "Kid Gloves" section where the rules are clearly to "make nice." Maybe something like that here???

Our Loved Ones section has traditionally served this purpose, but new members don't always think to post there especially if they want to address their questions to CDers.

[Thera Home]

OK............ATTENTION

All mean people report to my office at once, I will deal with you fiercly and appropriately. And I will disscuss this with your parents.:heehee:
Play nice and love and respect one another
That will be all.......


Love this little doodley

:Playnice:

Auntie Thera

[Asche]

Unfortunately, I don't think exhortations are going to do much good.

I've noticed that virtually all male-dominated groups (whether on-line or RL) tend to have a certain level of sexism and misogyny which goes up if the topic of women comes up, and even more so if an identifiable woman participates. This forum (M2F CD) is no exception. (See Shananigans' post.) The talk of getting in touch with one's "feminine side" doesn't seem to translate into CDers' being more likely to ask themselves how their behavior might come across to real-life women.

(I'm not saying that every M2F CDer here is being sexist. Lots of them don't ever post sexist stuff, and many will openly disagree with the more blatant comments. But that's true of lots of other male-dominated forums, too.)

The grosser expressions of sexism, etc., can be contained to some extent by moderation, and that seems to be how CD.com is handling it. But that does not get at the root of the problem: men who have grown up in a society that trains males in sexist attitudes from their earliest years. There's a lot of stuff here that is sexist, but not so bad that the moderators feel justified in swinging the ban-hammer, and which is so commonplace that even if people notice it, it doesn't occur to most of them to say anything. This creates a climate in which a certain level of sexism seems normal, and which gives the misogynists the idea that more blatant stuff will find a receptive audience.

IMHO, the only way to reduce the level of sexism is for the group as a whole to make a commitment to learning to recognize sexism and sexist attitudes, including the more everyday variety, and to making such attitudes unwelcome in this forum.

[kathtx]

Brilliant post Silent. To add my thoughts about threads posted by new GG members that came here for help, education and someone to talk to. I find it insensitive to refer to her husband in the feminine. She is new and not used to male crossdressers referring to themselves and each other "she or her". Please refer to the new GG's husband or SO as him or he. It really puts me off when I see that in responses from otherwise well meaning people. I also gringe when I see a CD start off with how wonderful it is and that he and his wife go out in public all the time, or that he dresses 24/7. I mean...talk about things that will run a scared, worried, hurt GG off before she can learn anything. She does not need to hear how deeply some of us might be invloved. Give her time to adjust and begin to understand that she and her SO are not alone before she even sees her guy in a dress! I see to many insensitive posts like this with our new GG's and there intro or first thread asking for help. You are not helping calling her husband a "SHE" .

Very good point, BrandyJ.

[Jacqueline Winona]

I thought the posts in question were just plain offensive but not for the same reasons. I think it was just one poster not having the manners to keep whatever frustration he has with women to himself. This forum is far from a sexist or misogynistic place and I don't think tarring the forum with such a broad brush is appropriate. Not that all the posts were sensitive to Miss M, but most were not like that.


Unfortunately, I don't think exhortations are going to do much good.

I've noticed that virtually all male-dominated groups (whether on-line or RL) tend to have a certain level of sexism and misogyny which goes up if the topic of women comes up, and even more so if an identifiable woman participates. This forum (M2F CD) is no exception. (See Shananigans' post.) The talk of getting in touch with one's "feminine side" doesn't seem to translate into CDers' being more likely to ask themselves how their behavior might come across to real-life women.

(I'm not saying that every M2F CDer here is being sexist. Lots of them don't ever post sexist stuff, and many will openly disagree with the more blatant comments. But that's true of lots of other male-dominated forums, too.)

The grosser expressions of sexism, etc., can be contained to some extent by moderation, and that seems to be how CD.com is handling it. But that does not get at the root of the problem: men who have grown up in a society that trains males in sexist attitudes from their earliest years. There's a lot of stuff here that is sexist, but not so bad that the moderators feel justified in swinging the ban-hammer, and which is so commonplace that even if people notice it, it doesn't occur to most of them to say anything. This creates a climate in which a certain level of sexism seems normal, and which gives the misogynists the idea that more blatant stuff will find a receptive audience.

IMHO, the only way to reduce the level of sexism is for the group as a whole to make a commitment to learning to recognize sexism and sexist attitudes, including the more everyday variety, and to making such attitudes unwelcome in this forum.

[docrobbysherry]

Ok, I've been gone and haven't read the GG Thread or the single Poisoned Post mentioned here. But, I'm curious!

Why would ANYONE assume a person would take seriously just the ONE NEGATIVE post out of 109? No matter how tasteless it was? That makes no sense to me!

Sounds like a: Tempest in a teapot?

[Miranda-E]

Why would ANYONE assume a person would take seriously just the ONE NEGATIVE post out of 109? No matter how tasteless it was? That makes no sense to me!

That's because your thinking rationally. This thread was a serious over reaction and a veiled attempt to call out a member.

[Eryn]

I find it insensitive to refer to her husband in the feminine. She is new and not used to male crossdressers referring to themselves and each other "she or her". Please refer to the new GG's husband or SO as him or he.

Better yet, refer to her husband as "your spouse" as referring to her as "him" or "he" is also insensitive.


That's because your thinking rationally. This thread was a serious over reaction and a veiled attempt to call out a member.

If that is the case, the member did something that was wrong. Whether or not is is an overreaction depends upon your point of view. Disrespect of others, particularly those who might be fragile, is not something to encourage.

Eryn

[ReineD]

IMHO, the only way to reduce the level of sexism is for the group as a whole to make a commitment to learning to recognize sexism and sexist attitudes, including the more everyday variety, and to making such attitudes unwelcome in this forum.

Wow, what a great post! The whole thing rang true to me and I thank you for posting it.


This forum is far from a sexist or misogynistic place and I don't think tarring the forum with such a broad brush is appropriate. Not that all the posts were sensitive to Miss M, but most were not like that.

Janice, I don't take it that Asche was accusing the forum of being sexist. It's just one thing out of many that is difficult to get rid of when one is socialized as a male and it might even be difficult to pin-point some of the more subtle, inculcated beliefs and attitudes as being sexist. I guess. This will not apply to everyone here, as Asche pointed out, and although few members here are blatantly sexist, others can still have subtly sexist attitudes. An example are the CDers who feel more feminine when they do housework or when they wear hosiery and heels, since housework no longer falls strictly in a woman's domain, and many women today don't wear hose and heels.

Also, I think the degree of sexism has abated with the younger generation. Genetic males born to women who believe in feminist ideals I'm guessing will think of women differently than someone who was raised say more than 30-40 years ago? I gather the person who made the comment we're all talking about is now retired.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

Ok, I've been gone and haven't read the GG Thread or the single Poisoned Post mentioned here. But, I'm curious!

Why would ANYONE assume a person would take seriously just the ONE NEGATIVE post out of 109? No matter how tasteless it was? That makes no sense to me!

Sounds like a: Tempest in a teapot?

In a normal frame of mind, not many people, if any, would take one nasty post out of 109 seriously - but when a GG comes here, having just learnt of her partners' CD'ing, she isnt in a normal frame of mind, the chances are she is in a blind panic, stunned, afraid - there is a time and place for people to air their greivances with GG's but IMO that place isnt in reply to a newly arrived GG - at least we could give the poor woman a chance to get to know the place and find out that in fact, most of the people here are rather great!

I started this thread not purely on the basis of this one particular instance but because I've seen it a few times now - and Debglam's post above bears this out.


That's because your thinking rationally. This thread was a serious over reaction and a veiled attempt to call out a member.

it wasnt a veiled attempt at anything - I was putting my views across, which was, when I last looked, just as much my right on here as anyone else's. Judging by the further posts here, it seems there are others who agree with me. If you dont agree, that's also your right.

[Laura912]

RS it is a human trait that we will remember one negative amongst a hundred positives. Sometimes it is so difficult to remove the hurt caused by the negative despite all the support one can offer. When one is already sensitized to what may be considered an unusual situation, the wound takes longer to heal.

[Rebecca Star]

When I joined the GM section, I imagined that it would be a place where we could forget our femme sides and instead talk about blokey stuff. But it's not like that at all! So I tend not to post there anymore.

I'll say Ditto to that with a capital D!

Added:
I was going to zip my lip but then realised that zip broke a long time ago...

If we don't discuss issues, then nothing changes. Out of a negative we can hopefully build on this and make it a positive.
While I also agree the mods and admins do a great a job here and I understand they can't veto every post, it seems some posts are let slip when others are jumped on.

For instance, I have seen posts where they belittle, insult and effectively dish CD's. However, if a similar vein of post was said on another forum, other than the CD forum, I dare say it would jumped all over on and deleted.

Sometimes I feel that because I don't identify as a female, then I'm seen as a guy, and guys are generally expected to be manly, so these thing shouldn't hurt our feelings. IDK if that's the mindset, but sometime it feels like that.

[BRANDYJ]

Most of us take exception when women are put down, insulted or otherwise talked about in a condescending way. Especially the GG's on this site. We love them, and for some of us, our male protective mode is switched on. Being insensitive is one of those male traits that is hurtful, mean and ignorant.

[Tracii G]

I think I know the thread you are talking about but maybe I missed that one post.
The GG that posted the thread seemed to me to be interested in learning what her husband was going thru and was just looking for help.Most gave it from what I read.
The GG's here I respect so much and I tend to agree with most of them,not always mind you but most of the time.
I have to go with Doc Sherry and say the one bad apple theme fits here.

[MelanieB]

It's good to see the GG in question on the original thread has indeed returned .......good news!!.. glad to see she wasn't scared off for good.

However, I do feel we need to take care with new GGs who come on here looking for informaton, and comfort, to help themselves gain an understanding of what CD'ing is and what it involves in its multitude of different facets.

Afterall, if a GG is frightened away without any positive resolve to her understanding there won't be just one person with their life turned completely upside down, there will also be a husband CD'er who may well find his marriage at risk...or a husband whose Cd'ing needs get put to one side and not satisfied for the sake of retaining a "happy" marriage.

Not one but two peoples lives potentially in a mess, when the GG was at one stage doing her best to prevent these problems.....what is this forum for if not to help people in this situation.

[Foxglove]

Hello, SP! Excellent thread, and perhaps one that deserves to be a sticky.

It's raised a question in my mind, something that I've thought about before. Is this MTF forum really the right place for a GG to come to in order to get acquainted with CD/TG/TS issues? I ask for reasons such as are given in this post:


I find it insensitive to refer to her husband in the feminine. She is new and not used to male crossdressers referring to themselves and each other "she or her". . . I also gringe when I see a CD start off with how wonderful it is and that he and his wife go out in public all the time, or that he dresses 24/7. I mean...talk about things that will run a scared, worried, hurt GG off before she can learn anything. She does not need to hear how deeply some of us might be invloved. Give her time to adjust and begin to understand that she and her SO are not alone before she even sees her guy in a dress! I see to many insensitive posts like this with our new GG's and there intro or first thread asking for help. You are not helping calling her husband a "SHE" .

All of us are used to being "girls", used to the issues that involves. We're used to talking about certain issues and talking in a certain way. But for a newcomer, it will be quite a culture shock. I can imagine that it might be upsetting for just about anybody. And I can imagine we might be somewhat insensitive to her because we don't realize that we are being insensitive. On this forum we're doing our own thing and might not fully realize in what ways it's not everybody's thing.

A month ago or so I came out to my son. I was thinking about referring him to this forum, but I decided not to. He's been used to seeing me in a certain role for a lot of years. Suddenly getting on this forum and seeing me in a totally different role, thinking and talking in a different way, it could be quite upsetting for him. (E.g., I told him that on this forum I have a female name, and he didn't even ask me what it was. He didn't want to know.) Cisgender people who are new to the transworld have no idea what's in store for them.

I'm not at all suggesting that GG's shouldn't be made welcome here. Of course they should, and anybody who treats them with disrespect is pretty shabby in my book. But the question I'm asking is, is this necessarily a GG's best first port-of-call? What I did for my son was to find a website and forum for children of trans parents. Whether he's ever followed up on that I don't know. But I thought it would be good for him to talk to people who are in the same situation that he is. And I'm wondering whether, for a GG's own good, she shouldn't start out by talking to other GG's to get an introduction to the transworld.

Just a thought.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[sterling12]

No argument, it was a very bad thing to do, and I suspect that particular respondent got punished for it. I would characterize The Response as someone trying to be flippant and cleaver, and remember we have a beloved member (But, not the perpetrator in this situation) around here who does that all the time! Perhaps that sends a message to others! Most of our members encourage her, and call for more. This Response was a very bad idea with someone so new, and I would hope that it's an anomaly that won't be repeated.

Please ladies, don't paint us all with a very large brush. Yes, there are times when we "just don't get it." We spent a lot of years looking at The World with a male perspective. But, we usually try and be supportive and empathetic. I think it's useful to remember that she got (so far) 108 informative and supportive comments. That means our Troll represents way less than 1%. In the future, we would like to see it come out ZERO!

I'd like to caution all members, new and old, "Be very careful with newbies!" "They are easily bruised, and can quickly be driven away." "It reflects badly on us, and the larger community of Trans People." "We lose, they lose, and we just don't need those kinds of hassles!"

Peace and Love, Joanie

[ReineD]

But the question I'm asking is, is this necessarily a GG's best first port-of-call?

Where else can she get answers other than in CD forums that have subforums for wives? I believe this is the largest one there is.

There is one site strictly for the partners of crossdressers, where CDs are not allowed to join. But, many of the members are non-accepting, and there is a dire lack of accurate information. I've posted on that site a few times to say that not all CDers are selfish, fetishistic, cheating boozers. I was accused of being a CDer. :straightface:




All of us are used to being "girls", used to the issues that involves. We're used to talking about certain issues and talking in a certain way. But for a newcomer, it will be quite a culture shock. I can imagine that it might be upsetting for just about anybody. And I can imagine we might be somewhat insensitive to her because we don't realize that we are being insensitive. On this forum we're doing our own thing and might not fully realize in what ways it's not everybody's thing.

It is not difficult for GGs to see genetic men being feminine, especially when they know they are in a crossdresser forum. Really, GGs get along well with anyone who is sensitive and nurturing. The difficulty is in seeing very macho attitudes hidden behind the pretense of being female. I'm not saying that every CDer on this site is this type of macho, but there are many posts where you can virtually see the testosterone flying out and these are usually the posts that are unkind and insensitive, or the posts that stereotype women.

[Billiebluenose1878 GG]

I can say that this has been a great forum ..it has helped me understand a few things and have made a few friends along the way .... GG will gain loads from here and the majority of the forum members i have read posts from have been nothing but helpful and open armed ...... xxxxx

[Foxglove]

Where else can she get answers other than in CD forums that have subforums for wives?

Well, I'd have thought that the Loved Ones forum would be a good place.

I'm not trying to sound unwelcoming to GG's. I'm just wondering if for their own sake it wouldn't be better for them to start with others in their own situation. Maybe I'm wrong about that.


There is one site strictly for the partners of crossdressers, where CDs are not allowed to join. But, many of the members are non-accepting, and there is a dire lack of accurate information.

When you say "non-accepting", I assume you mean non-accepting of CDing? Yes, that would make things difficult. As for accurate information, they'll get all sorts of information here, won't they? Hopefully they will get what they're looking for.

I don't know. Maybe there's no good solution to the problem. Or maybe this particular forum is the best solution. I do know that I didn't really like the idea of my son starting here. Knowing him as I do, I didn't think he'd much like what he found on this forum. This forum is basically for us, and I can well imagine that others might find it a bit overwhelming at first.

[Billiebluenose1878 GG]

Now im sure we dont want to go down the road of segregation ... this is not what this forum is for ....its for everyone .....xxxx

[Sandra]

But the question I'm asking is, is this necessarily a GG's best first port-of-call?



Well at least here she has a clean site to see not like the majority on the web.

Getting advice from different members can only be a good thing, it gives a wide range of experiences. GGs cannot answer all the questions that are asked, so what does a new GG do then where does she go? Here she has a wide range of the community to obtain advise and support.


Well, I'd have thought that the Loved Ones forum would be a good place.

What's the point of that, she can still read the whole board and all members can post in there.

[Billiebluenose1878 GG]

Well said Sandra ..... xxxxxxx

[ReineD]

I do know that I didn't really like the idea of my son starting here. Knowing him as I do, I didn't think he'd much like what he found on this forum. This forum is basically for us, and I can well imagine that others might find it a bit overwhelming at first.

Well, if you want your son to know what the CDing is all about both in a universal sense (all the different ways there are to CD) and what it means to you personally, then he should join, if he is interested of course. He may not like what he reads here, but if he wants to learn there really isn't any alternatives.

[Foxglove]

Now im sure we dont want to go down the road of segregation ... this is not what this forum is for ....its for everyone .....xxxx


Well at least here she has a clean site to see not like the majority on the web.

Getting advice from different members can only be a good thing, it gives a wide range of experiences. GGs cannot answer all the questions that are asked, so what does a new GG do then where does she go? Here she has a wide range of the community to obtain advise and support.

It's clear to me I'm not expressing myself well at all here. I'm not at all suggesting there should be any segregation. That's the last thing I'd want. And of course I think it would be good for a cisgender person to talk directly to transpeople to get their point of view. That's exactly what we transpeople need. Dialogue to promote understanding.

What I'm trying to say is that on this forum there's a lot of really "girly-girl" talk, and it wouldn't surprise me if a GG who is new to her husband's CDing might be overwhelmed at what she sees here. She might be wondering just how far her husband wants to go, etc.

So I was wondering if some GG's might initially be uncomfortable here. If they're not, that's fine with me. If they feel comfortable straightaway, so much the better as far as I'm concerned. I suppose I'm speaking purely from my own personal experience. I didn't think my son would be comfortable here. The fact that since I came out to him he's asked me nothing about TGism is an indication that I was right about that. But if nobody else fits into our situation, OK, I have no problem with that.

I think that if I were a GG, I'd want to go to other GG's first. But if GG's in general don't feel that way, I have no problem with that.

Annabelle

[Sandra]

I am of the opinion that it's no good sugar coating things, but being rude and inconsiderate is out of line.

Yes a new GG may be overwhelmed at first but with some weeding out and listening to those of us that live with this, and how things can be and how they can also work out then she will hopefully become more at ease and learn a lot.

[Foxglove]

I am of the opinion that it's no good sugar coating things, but being rude and inconsiderate is out of line.

I don't believe in sugar coating things, either. My son hasn't asked me any questions yet. When he does, I'll give him the truth.

But as an example, on the day I came out to him, I told him I dressed, told him what it meant to me, etc. But he didn't ask any questions about how I dress--what specifically do I wear, do I put on makeup, etc. Now it was clear to me that he was very uncomfortable with that. He was Ok with the idea of TGism in general, but some of the specifics bothered him a bit.

So it appears to me he needs some time to ease into the situation. I don't have to tell him everything straightaway. I can give him information as he asks for it. Don't sugar-coat it, be straight up about it, but let him take his time, go at his own pace as he feels comfortable. This is what I meant by the notion that some people might find our MTF forum a bit overwhelming at first.


Yes a new GG may be overwhelmed at first but with some weeding out and listening to those of us that live with this, and how things can be and how they can also work out then she will hopefully become more at ease and learn a lot.

Yes, I'd agree totally with this. And this is what I hope to achieve with my son. Hopefully some time soon he'll be more at ease with this. It's a lot to take on board. Let him approach it in a way that's comfortable for him.

[Jacqueline Winona]

I understand you're point, Reine. There are tons of examples of what you say, I won't argue that, I just don't think there is a sexist intent or meaning behind a lot of that. Usually I think it's more jealousy that women get to wear hose, heels, etc. and the yearning that a CD would have to wear those things may come across as sexist. I try to only speak for myself on things like this, and my attitude is more "why wouldn't women want to wear these things" rather than "women should wear . . ." if that makes any sense. (And yes, I know the answer to my own question. :)


Wow, what a great post! The whole thing rang true to me and I thank you for posting it.



Janice, I don't take it that Asche was accusing the forum of being sexist. It's just one thing out of many that is difficult to get rid of when one is socialized as a male and it might even be difficult to pin-point some of the more subtle, inculcated beliefs and attitudes as being sexist. I guess. This will not apply to everyone here, as Asche pointed out, and although few members here are blatantly sexist, others can still have subtly sexist attitudes. An example are the CDers who feel more feminine when they do housework or when they wear hosiery and heels, since housework no longer falls strictly in a woman's domain, and many women today don't wear hose and heels.

Also, I think the degree of sexism has abated with the younger generation. Genetic males born to women who believe in feminist ideals I'm guessing will think of women differently than someone who was raised say more than 30-40 years ago? I gather the person who made the comment we're all talking about is now retired.

[susan54]

Those of us who have been doing this for years should have a higher awareness of how things might appear when replying to a new member. One concern I have is that there seem to be a lot of people here (or maybe just a few who post a lot?) who are utterly convinced that there is an automatic progression from cross-dressing to changing gender by surgery. This nonsense is not helped by 'jokes' such as "What is the difference between a cross-dresser and a trans-sexual? About two years". We all have to accept that there is a great range of reasons for cross-dressing and avoid appearing to impose our own reasons on others. My only progressions have been in skill and confidence (and, I fear, the amount of money I spend on womenswear).

[Kaz]

In my post I mentioned emotional intelligence.

I am as guilty of 'firing off' as anyone. The MtF section is the default setting so anyone coming here arrives here. For me we need to do one of two things... we get wise and treat everyone on this thread as potential newcomers and as we would meeting anyone new in real life... OR... we establish a different thread for incoming members... a bit like Introductions, but a 'next level' and we set the rules there a little more aggressively... just a thought... classic consultant's advice... add another layer.. that will be $1000 please?

I find it personally unacceptable that arriving GGs are given a hard time. I also find it unacceptable that anyone with relatively few posts is given a hard time. people come here for help and support. For God's sake this should be a core value of the community that we support everyone who comes here for support?

Or am I just deluded and past my sell by date.... oh well...

xx

[Asche]

Taking a comment a bit out of context:

All of us are used to being "girls", used to the issues that involves. We're used to talking about certain issues and talking in a certain way.
Not all of us.

This is a petty common assumption here, but it's worth remembering that not all of the posters or lurkers here think of themselves as "girls," either. There's a silent minority here of people who just dress, without feeling in any sense female by doing it. There are all kinds of people here, and talking as if everyone is a certain way tends to discourage those who aren't that way from participating.

I think it's a useful -- and mind-broadening -- exercise to ask yourself how what you are doing and what others are doing might come across to people who aren't like you.

(Personally, I think it would be a dreadful bore if everyone were like me.)

[Asche]

I understand you're point, Reine. There are tons of examples of what you say, I won't argue that, I just don't think there is a sexist intent or meaning behind a lot of that....
I don't think that there is sexist intent, either (at least, not in most cases.) But you don't have to intend to be sexist to contribute to a sexist atmosphere. Like racism, etc., sexism is so pervasive that all you have to do to keep it going is to just keep doing what you've always done.

Sexist tropes are part of how we have grown up seeing the world and understanding ourselves, to the point that most of us aren't even aware of them. You think, that's just how it is. You have to make an active effort to see what you're doing and then act differently if you want to reduce your contribution to the sexism in the world.

And you have to recognize that some of the stuff that you've always thought was harmless isn't so harmless.

For instance, when people here ask "why wouldn't women want to wear these things [hose, heels, etc.]" despite the fact that women here and elsewhere have explained very clearly why not, it comes across as if their reasons and their experiences don't matter when measured against what (male) CDers like. Sort of like saying to someone who is allergic to peanuts, "I just can't understand why you don't like peanuts, they taste so good to me." And that is an example of sexism. Unintentional, no doubt, but it still contributes to a kind of sexist atmosphere.

[Badtranny]

What I'm trying to say is that on this forum there's a lot of really "girly-girl" talk, and it wouldn't surprise me if a GG who is new to her husband's CDing might be overwhelmed at what she sees here. She might be wondering just how far her husband wants to go, etc.

Oh this is an excellent point and I totally agree with Annabelle, though probably not for the same reason.

Why do CD's have two personalities? I realize that I might be a bad example, but when I was cross dressing I didn't have a feminine act. I've lamented the girly cutesie act by so many on this forum since the beginning. If my man came out to me as a CD, I would be anxious about it but if I was into him, than I would want to see it. If he came out prancing and mincing like a 7 year old at a tea party, it would be over. However, if he came out as himself and just trying to be graceful and comport himself in a more feminine way, than we might be able to work something out. Especially if he looks sexy in his little skirt. Or even better, he loves dressing up but he still stomps around like a lumberjack, that might be kinda hot too. I guess the main thing is, I would be freaked out if he wanted or had a fem identity, with a real name and femmy voice and mannerisms.

If I found out my big tough guy (that's how I like 'em) was hiding a secret life and giggling about her panty collection, I would be extremely supportive, but let's face it. That's not hot.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Asche, as I said in the part of my answer that wasn't quoted (not calling you out on that at all, just in case this sounds that way), I know the answer to my question. And you'll have to trust me that I know a lot about discrimination, intent, "sexist tropes" (I did have to look that term up, but it is similar enough to what I would have said) to believe me when I say know what I speak of. Do most members here look at the world through the eyes of a man? Of course they do. But sexist? Not even close. Go to any college football message board if you want to see what that's about. I know for an absolute fact that I don't have a sexist or racist bone in my body, I wouldn't survive in a family with three very strong-willed women (even if two of them are currently still in elementary school) if I were. But back to the original point: I just don't see the sexism that others might see when people say "i feel more feminine when I clean the house in a skirt, heels and hose." The same people say similar things when they wear yoga pants and a sports bra when they work out, talk about fixing the family car in a spaghetti strap top, or getting sawdust in their "cleavage" when they are doing carpentry projects. But as always, that's just my opinion and I recognize that I may be the dissenting view on this subject.


I don't think that there is sexist intent, either (at least, not in most cases.) But you don't have to intend to be sexist to contribute to a sexist atmosphere. Like racism, etc., sexism is so pervasive that all you have to do to keep it going is to just keep doing what you've always done.

Sexist tropes are part of how we have grown up seeing the world and understanding ourselves, to the point that most of us aren't even aware of them. You think, that's just how it is. You have to make an active effort to see what you're doing and then act differently if you want to reduce your contribution to the sexism in the world.

And you have to recognize that some of the stuff that you've always thought was harmless isn't so harmless.

For instance, when people here ask "why wouldn't women want to wear these things [hose, heels, etc.]" despite the fact that women here and elsewhere have explained very clearly why not, it comes across as if their reasons and their experiences don't matter when measured against what (male) CDers like. Sort of like saying to someone who is allergic to peanuts, "I just can't understand why you don't like peanuts, they taste so good to me." And that is an example of sexism. Unintentional, no doubt, but it still contributes to a kind of sexist atmosphere.

[ReineD]

Janice, there's a range in sexist attitudes. If you take Wiki's definition, "sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is defined as prejudice or discrimination based on sex; or conditions or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex."

There are blatant, discriminatory sexist attitudes that we rarely see around here, but the more subtle (or not so subtle) stereotyping of women is alive and well, I'm afraid.

[Foxglove]

Taking a comment a bit out of context:



All of us are used to being "girls", used to the issues that involves. We're used to talking about certain issues and talking in a certain way.


Not all of us.

This is a petty common assumption here, but it's worth remembering that not all of the posters or lurkers here think of themselves as "girls," either. There's a silent minority here of people who just dress, without feeling in any sense female by doing it. There are all kinds of people here, and talking as if everyone is a certain way tends to discourage those who aren't that way from participating.

I think it's a useful -- and mind-broadening -- exercise to ask yourself how what you are doing and what others are doing might come across to people who aren't like you.

(Personally, I think it would be a dreadful bore if everyone were like me.)

Asche, if you admit that you're taking a comment out of context, then why proceed to comment on it yourself? Most people agree that's a bit unfair. What you're doing here is misrepresenting what I've said on this thread, as well as on a number of others.

What I was talking about on this thread is the fact that we on this forum talk a lot about women's clothes, make-up, dressing, going out, etc. Are you going to deny that CDers as well as those who identify as TG talk about such things?

Asche, I'm well aware of the issue you're raising here. It's an issue I myself have discussed on many other threads. One thing is, I'm not actually sure that you're a minority on this MTF forum. There's a pretty even divide, according to a count I once made, between those who identify as male and those who identify as female. And the second thing is, your group isn't silent by any means. There are many people who express their views, and do it quite effectively.

But all this is totally off-topic on this thread. So perhaps we can keep things on topic and in context?

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Asche]

Asche, if you admit that you're taking a comment out of context, then why proceed to comment on it yourself? ... What you're doing here is misrepresenting what I've said on this thread, as well as on a number of others.
I'm not misrepresenting anything, because I'm not responding to the point you were making.

I was pointing out that that sentence included in it an assumption that people in this forum widely make, apparently without even thinking about it, that "all" the CDers here are being "girls," at least in the sense of using female names, calling one another "ladies" or "girls," and trying to achieve a feminine look or feeling. This is obviously true for most, my point was that it's not true for all.


But all this is totally off-topic on this thread.
I disagree.

This thread started as a discussion of how posters can make a new, non-CDer feel unwelcome in the forum and the site. My point, expressed in different ways in different replies, has been that there are lots of less-than-obvious and often unintentional ways in which people in the mainstream of a group end up creating a climate that makes those who aren't like the mainstream feel that this group is not for them. And that changing this (assuming you want to) requires examining a lot of the stuff that goes on that people don't think about and just passes for normal or not worth talking about.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Again, I don't dispute that sterotyping exists. I just don't see it as frequently here as others might and believe there are other explanations. I'd be willing to bet that I draw the line one what may or may not be sexist close to what you would think, which is closer than what many women think (my feminist wife and her friends still have no trouble stating that men have no business braiding their daughters' hair, or that fathers must be the ones to teach kids how to spit toothpaste the proper way. :))
Like many issues, I think this is one of the "eye of the beholder" things, as what you may find sexist I might not. But It doesn't mean I don't value your opinion and don't consider all viewpoints, regardless of what I may thing.


Janice, there's a range in sexist attitudes. If you take Wiki's definition, "sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is defined as prejudice or discrimination based on sex; or conditions or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex."

There are blatant, discriminatory sexist attitudes that we rarely see around here, but the more subtle (or not so subtle) stereotyping of women is alive and well, I'm afraid.

[Babeba]

I'm not misrepresenting anything, because I'm not responding to the point you were making.

I was pointing out that that sentence included in it an assumption that people in this forum widely make, apparently without even thinking about it, that "all" the CDers here are being "girls," at least in the sense of using female names, calling one another "ladies" or "girls," and trying to achieve a feminine look or feeling. This is obviously true for most, my point was that it's not true for all.

Very, very good point. And this is something which the moderators of this site have ALWAYS come down on, when we notice it or when it gets reported. Not only is it just plain rude to those who do not identify as 'ladies' or 'girls', but it is downright offputting to especially our FTM members of the forum! There's no call for it, and it kind of blows my mind that for some people the response to a mainstream heteronormative society that whitewashes their gender expression and stifles it is to stifle that of others on a site like this. Now, I don't think this is entirely how Annabelle meant to write her post, and she didn't totally come off that way to me - when she said the word 'us' I took it to mean, 'us who are MTF crossdressers who feel female.' The point at which I get frustrated is when I see posts which are addressed, 'Hey girls,' or 'how many of you girls...'

Slightly more off-topic rant that fits in on this thought (and is ENTIRELY my own opinion, YMMV): I don't like the term 'gurl' to refer to a member of the crossdressing or transgender community. If you feel feminine, own it and call yourself a girl (or even a woman!!) In my opinion, if you don't feel like you deserve to be a woman or a girl, you probably don't deserve to be one with bad spelling, either... and the only one keeping you from deserving that is you and your own self esteem. Accept who you are, and that others are different from you and that's okay.

Janice,
I hate to say this but I sometimes feel exasperated with the 'why wouldn't women want to dress up in dresses, heels, etc.' posts. The reason why is that it doesn't always suit our lifestyles, just the same as why you wouldn't wear a full-on going out outfit all the time, either! The way that question is posted makes it seem as though that sort of outfit were the norm, and anything else is a variation from the standard when the truth is, there are so many different outfits to be had for so many purposes. I could just as easily say, 'why wouldn't anyone want to spend their full day outside hiking, listening to birds, identifying wildflowers and combating invasive species?' but I would be just as wrong to apply MY norm onto other people.

[Marleena]

When I mention girls in a thread I don't do it to insult anybody. The section is titled MTF. Members instead of girls would be a better choice of words though.

Oh to the original post.. Most of us won't insult the GG's, there's no reason to.

[ReineD]

Again, I don't dispute that sterotyping exists. I just don't see it as frequently here as others might and believe there are other explanations.

I see it a lot and I'll mention the instances in a moment. But first I need to say that I don't see it as willful disrespect and personally I'm NOT bothered by it (unless it is blatant or arrogant). Not here, not in a CDer forum. I understand that the road from male socialization to being able to believably express the opposite gender is difficult. I tried to walk like a guy once and my attempt was downright laughable, and I was NOT trying to be funny. Picture an exaggerated John Wayne who is stiff because he just got off the horse he's been riding for 3 days straight. lol It takes a while for a genetic male to let go of the stereotyped feminine behaviors (I believe), and just be natural. Also for many of our members, forums such as this one are their main places to be feminine, so there is a degree of playing a role while they're here, if you will.

Anyway, here are some of the more subtle and not so subtle expressions of sexism, or stereotyping, if you prefer. And again, I understand where they come from, and I believe that as members grow in their expression and practice, they do disappear:


Babs mentioned this already: "Why don't GGs dress femininely anymore."
"I love doing housework when I am dressed in my sexy maid's outfit. I feel so girly."
"This is my sexy secretary's outfit."
"Here I am in my ultra sexy outfit" (an outfit that few GGs wear, unless they're college aged girls at a nightclub).
All the pics of cleavage and big boobs.
"What is your ideal women's job?" Answers I've read: "Hooter's girl, secretary, playboy bunny, flight attendant, call girl, model."
"Women are jealous of beautiful women." Or, "Women don't like us because they're jealous."
"I'm more feminine than the average woman."
"I want to be a wife and take good care of my man" (implying a subservient role). Or, "I want to be a wife and be taken care of".


Obviously not everyone expresses these thoughts, but I think we all recognize them as having been expressed on this site numerous times.

Marleena, as to using "hi girls" in the M2F, Babs was saying that we edit that out if it is used in sections that are not specifically designated M2F, for example the Lounge, Media or Loved Ones sections. Still, we no doubt have many M2F CDers who don't think of themselves as girls, but I think they understand it when they read this in the M2F section. I've not heard any complaints. :p

[Marleena]

Marleena, as to using "hi girls" in the M2F, Babs was saying that we edit that out if it is used in sections that are not specifically designated M2F, for example the Lounge, Media or Loved Ones sections. Still, we no doubt have many M2F CDers who don't think of themselves as girls, but I think they understand it when they read this in the M2F section. I've not heard any complaints. :p

Oh..I know some members get insulted if we adress them wrong. They feel very strongly about who and where they are on the scale. Even though all of us are under the TG umbrella some hate being called transgender. Then there's the label debate and so on.lol. I'm glad I'm not the one trying to explain it all.

[Jacqueline Winona]

As I said earlier in my post Babs, I know the answer and sincerely appreciate your point of view. My point was, at least for me, I see something I'd actually like to be able to do in public, without fear of any humiliaiton or reprisal, that I really can't do. When I say "why wouldn't you want to. .. .," it has nothing to do with my expectations of women, but eveyrything to do with something I would love to be able to do. I don't epect women to really wear heels, hose, skirts etc. every day and I completely understand why women feel completely different about it than I do.
Using your analogy- I grew up in one of the most scenic, naturally beautiful places on the face of the earth where people come just to see the foliage. Others are into birding, hunting, fishing, etc. There are literally dozens of mountains to hike within 2-3 hours drive over rural highways from my childhood home. Despite having seen the foliage forever, having had the opportunity to hike whenever I wanted to, having plenty of relatives who are into outdoor sport, I have no interest in any of it. I've had several people say "Why don't you just get in a car and drive to see all these things" more times than you can imagine. I just don't want to do it. I don't like answering the same question all the time, but I do understand how others would do whatever they possibly could to spend every waking minute in such a beautiful area.
That's the best I can do to explain my comment. Now before you think I have no appreciation for my homeland, it still does amaze me and take my breath away when I go back home after all these years. :)



Janice,
I hate to say this but I sometimes feel exasperated with the 'why wouldn't women want to dress up in dresses, heels, etc.' posts. The reason why is that it doesn't always suit our lifestyles, just the same as why you wouldn't wear a full-on going out outfit all the time, either! The way that question is posted makes it seem as though that sort of outfit were the norm, and anything else is a variation from the standard when the truth is, there are so many different outfits to be had for so many purposes. I could just as easily say, 'why wouldn't anyone want to spend their full day outside hiking, listening to birds, identifying wildflowers and combating invasive species?' but I would be just as wrong to apply MY norm onto other people.

[ReineD]

Janice, if you say, "I don't understand why some women wouldn't want to wear the things that I think are pretty", that's fine. It limits women to a certain box, however, even if it's not outright stereotyping.

The stereotyping comes with the oft expressed opinion, "Why don't women dress in a feminine manner anymore". This implies that a woman is not feminine unless she measures up to a CDer's standards of femininity.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Once again, Reine, your ability to say what I think better than I can express amazes me. :)

[Wildaboutheels]

1] Mods are not imnipotent as much as we might like them to be. They simply cannot watch everything as it is being posted. Which means some "bad" posts might be seen by a new GG. I also think any GG "sharp" enough to come to this Forum of her own volition should be able to handle a bad post here or there especially if it is only a small percentage of the total responses. This IS a free Forum where people are supposed to express their opinion isn't it?

2]This thread is just one of several valid reasons WHY this site needs POLLS. Poll participants can be MADE to "be honest". A new GG would not even have to "risk" posting a question. She could have literally dozens of questions she might have right in front of her, all in one place. AND the answers. Maybe answers to questions that had not even occurred to her. Of course looking at a poll/survey might not answer specifics about HER guy but it would/could illustrate just what a huge spectrum exists.

It should be obvious to most at this Forum that some questions don't ever get asked. People could and would answer them in a poll/survey w/o their name attached I feel quite sure. Knowledge - truthful knowledge - IS power isn't it?

[Frédérique]

As usual, I'm late to the "party." :straightface:


After all this forum advertises itself as A Community for Crossdressers, their Family and Friends.

In many ways it should be called transgender.com, since we “ordinary” crossdressers are dumped on repeatedly by members of the GLBT community and confused individuals (like yourself)…


The newly arrived GG is likely to be confused, upset, angry, hurt, frightened - all or any of those things and maybe more.

And she may NOT be. What on Earth is there to be frightened about, or angry about, or confused about, or hurt by? Crossdressing (the MtF variety) has been going on for a LONG time – how about accepting the fact that there is variance in the populace, and all types of human behavior exist under the Sun? It's called tolerance. Let me guess – she’s scared (or worried) that HE might be homosexual?


Does anyone really want it on their conscience that they may have driven away an SO/GG who was trying to understand YOU? who was trying to find a way to make her marriage work in the light of the revelation she has just had dropped on her? when she really was genuinely interested in finding out about what CD'ing was about and how it could fit into her marriage, her life and her relationship with her CD'ing SO?

I have a conscience, which is why I don’t respond to pleas for understanding from GG’s or SO’s. I’m unqualified to help someone who cannot fathom why a male would wear women’s clothing. Keep in mind that few people on this board understand why they crossdress. On top of this, we are engaged in a mainly self-ish enterprise that equates with pleasure, in all variations or definitions of that word, and YOU need to come here with that understanding first and foremost…

From my perspective, you’re saying “NO” to us, and many GG's who visit this site are also firmly in the negative in regards to MtF crossdressing. With this in mind, it’s better to say nothing. I really don’t care if your marriage “works,” or if your relationship works in some predetermined correct way – I’m here to share the joy of crossdressing with other crossdressers who may feel the same way, and anything to the contrary is viewed by me as an unfortunate intrusion…


Whilst nobody really expects everyone to wrap her in cotton wool and say "there there, everything is going to be fine" I really do not understand why some people think it is ok to reply to this plea for help with a downright nasty, put-down post.

You’re rather naïve about discussion forums, I’m afraid – what do you expect? This place is, by and large, fairly benign, but beware of those who don’t care about anything, let alone helping someone like the aforementioned GG. Lurking (and reading) may be a better option at times, if understanding is truly your goal…

[ReineD]

Crossdressing (the MtF variety) has been going on for a LONG time – how about accepting the fact that there is variance in the populace, and all types of human behavior exist under the Sun? It's called tolerance. Let me guess – she’s scared (or worried) that HE might be homosexual?

Yes, the CDing has been going on a long time, but it has been and still is deeply closeted. Most of us in the outside world have no understanding of it except what is served to us by the media, which is not always accurate. Prior to having met a CDer (my friend's husband, before I knew my SO), I took it that all men who dressed were gay and I got this impression from the drag queens in gay parades.

How can a GG be "tolerant" from the onset, of something about which she is misinformed? She joins here to ask questions. This is her form of research. She should not be lambasted.



From my perspective, you’re saying “NO” to us, and many GG's who visit this site are also firmly in the negative in regards to MtF crossdressing. With this in mind, it’s better to say nothing.

Take care to not assume that all GGs say "NO", just based on a few GGs who are upset because of the reasons I state above or because they were in relationships with CDers who had honesty, faithfulness, and/or shopping compulsion issues.

Have a look at these threads about supportive GGs, and my search does not produce all of them:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/tags.php?tag=accepting+wives


I really don’t care if your marriage “works,” or if your relationship works in some predetermined correct way – I’m here to share the joy of crossdressing with other crossdressers who may feel the same way, and anything to the contrary is viewed by me as an unfortunate intrusion…

If you don't "care" about the CDers and their wives' issues here, then why should these same CDers "care" about bonding in a carefree and joyful way with you?

It's a big forum, Freddy. I hope you learn to live peacefully in it.

[Babeba]

[quote]
And she may NOT be. What on Earth is there to be frightened about, or angry about, or confused about, or hurt by? Crossdressing (the MtF variety) has been going on for a LONG time – how about accepting the fact that there is variance in the populace, and all types of human behavior exist under the Sun? It's called tolerance. Let me guess – she’s scared (or worried) that HE might be homosexual?[\quote]

Generally if a partner takes this all in stride and is 100% on board from the start, no confusions or discomfort with her heteronormative values being challenged, she doesn't need to come to a site like this and doesn't bother. For me, I knew conceptually it was all okay but it was a BRAND NEW WORLD as far as I was concerned, and I didn't know what it truly meant so I wanted to learn what I was getting myself into. There were definitely things I was unsure about!

Having a contemptuous attitude about the people who simply have never been exposed to this stuff makes no sense. Especially not when they come here to learn more about what it all means to their relationship.

Someone came to the information centre where I worked and asked a pretty damn obscure question about the local landscape prior to the last glacial period and got all snooty when my coworker didn't know the answer off the top of his head - 'I would have thought they would have hired people who know what they were talking about here!' to me, treating the new (or older) GGs poorly makes the person doing so look as much of an idiot as that guy.

Also, many GGs get hurt by the feeling of being lied to or deceived about their partner when this information is disclosed later than they feel appropriate. It can be difficult to separate the hurt from feeling lied to from the confusion about the gender identity or clothes.

[WifeofWrenchette]

Where else can she get answers other than in CD forums that have subforums for wives? I believe this is the largest one there is.

There is one site strictly for the partners of crossdressers, where CDs are not allowed to join. But, many of the members are non-accepting, and there is a dire lack of accurate information. I've posted on that site a few times to say that not all CDers are selfish, fetishistic, cheating boozers. I was accused of being a CDer. :straightface:
I know the site you are referring to Reine because I went there when I first found out. The GG's were non-accepting and after one or two posts I found that out and left. CD bashing was not what I went there for so I won't be back. Hopefully, not many other GG wives or SO's will go there first before coming here because that place scares the heck out of newly informed GG's and seems to cause a lot of divorces from what I've read.


Originally Posted by Frédérique
From my perspective, you’re saying “NO” to us, and many GG's who visit this site are also firmly in the negative in regards to MtF crossdressing. With this in mind, it’s better to say nothing.I personally didn't join this site saying "NO" to CD'ing, in fact I was just the opposite and have FULLY accepted my husband in this regard. Not every GG that joins here is saying "NO". In fact, a good number are either accepting or actively participating in their husband's dressing that are posting here.

[Kate T]

SP, I agree with your sentiments in your OP. At the same time I think it can be healthy to have a wide variety of opinions.

how does a new GG sort out the crap from the useful posts that he / she can trust? I don't know the answer to that. Generally what I have noticed is that the really out of line stuff gets stomped on pretty quickly by everyone, members and moderators alike. As you point out, this tends to happen even more so in LO where there seems to be a strong support of SO's generally (justifiably in my opinion).

This site can be a little unwieldy at first. It is a bit like having to read the full service manual for your car when you just wan't to know how to change the battery or turn the lights on. Personally I think some of the smaller UK and Oz sites and forums can be little better in "easing" your way into it but they are not always easy to find.

I will concur wholeheartedly with your request that people think before they "submit". My mother always told me to think before I opened my mouth. Good general advice I think.

[BRANDYJ]

This has nothing to do with our beloved GG members. You all know how I feel about you, the GG's here. Love you all and would leave this site if there were no GGs with their input. But the thread title has meaning in another way. I recently posted my opinion on a story that a member posted and oddly enough the heading or title of the thread said "believe it or not" in it. Well I read the story and guess what? I didn't believe it and posted my opinion and why it seems like a fantasy or otherwise attention getting embellishment. So I wonder... Should I have ignored the post and moved on to the next one or should I have versed my opinion as to the truth or fantasy of this thread? Is this a good case for think before you post, or is it justified to call someone out on what we believe to be a made up story? Your opinion counts. And no, I will not be hurt and offended by your opinion.

[Kate T]

This has nothing to do with our beloved GG members. You all know how I feel about you, the GG's here. Love you all and would leave this site if there were no GGs with their input. But the thread title has meaning in another way. I recently posted my opinion on a story that a member posted and oddly enough the heading or title of the thread said "believe it or not" in it. Well I read the story and guess what? I didn't believe it and posted my opinion and why it seems like a fantasy or otherwise attention getting embellishment. So I wonder... Should I have ignored the post and moved on to the next one or should I have versed my opinion as to the truth or fantasy of this thread? Is this a good case for think before you post, or is it justified to call someone out on what we believe to be a made up story? Your opinion counts. And no, I will not be hurt and offended by your opinion.

Sort of depends on whether the post title was a genuine question or rhetorical (usually the latter). Also on the relationship with the poster.
I must admit I tend to leave those alone in the hope they will just be buried along with the rest of the meaningless stuff that appears every so often.

[NicoleScott]

I find it insensitive to refer to her husband in the feminine. She is new and not used to male crossdressers referring to themselves and each other "she or her". Please refer to the new GG's husband or SO as him or he. It really puts me off when I see that in responses from otherwise well meaning people.

If a CD has a strong feminine identity, uses a feminine name, and refers to self as feminine asks for responses to a post about the wife/SO, wouldn't it be insensitive to the CD to then use masculine pronouns when referring to that CD?


I also gringe when I see a CD start off with how wonderful it is and that he and his wife go out in public all the time, or that he dresses 24/7. I mean...talk about things that will run a scared, worried, hurt GG off before she can learn anything. She does not need to hear how deeply some of us might be invloved.

Do posts about positive experiences from a CD need to be tempered so as not to alarm a new GG/SO? When a CD has posted such positive experiences in the past, I have never seen the scolding "knock it off - you might scare off the newbie SO's" - I've seen only supportive comments.


Does support for the family/friends/SO's/GG's take a back seat to support for the CD? I hope not.

[BRANDYJ]

If a CD has a strong feminine identity, uses a feminine name, and refers to self as feminine asks for responses to a post about the wife/SO, wouldn't it be insensitive to the CD to then use masculine pronouns when referring to that CD?

If the post was from the CD and NOT from his SO, then yes, I agree, it would be disrespectful. But it is NOT the CD that I or we are responding to, it's the new GG that came here for help and understanding. Now if the new GG referred to her husband as "she" or "her", then I would agree with you and might refer to her SO with fem pronouns. When GG refers to her crossdressing husband as a HE or Him, it's more disrespectful and potentially damaging to refer her husband/SO as a she.
Even the rare occasion that a CD refers to himself using male pronouns, then it to would be disrespectful to refer to him with feminine pronouns.


Do posts about positive experiences from a CD need to be tempered so as not to alarm a new GG/SO? When a CD has posted such positive experiances in the past, I have never seen the scolding "knock it off - you might scare off the newbie SO's" - I've seen only supportive comments.

Yes, when they are not in direct response to the thread topic and can dis-sway someone's fears that her husband wants to dress 24/7. In my opinion it can be harmful and slpow her acceptance process down or halt it. So it then becomes a dis-servive to her CD husband.



Does support for the family/friends/SO's/GG's take a back seat to support for the CD? I hope not.

For this, we agree. I will always put the need for support toward the family/friends/SO's/GG's

[MelanieB]

"
In many ways it should be called transgender.com, since we “ordinary” crossdressers are dumped on repeatedly by members of the GLBT community and confused individuals (like yourself)…

Whatever this forum should be called, in your opinion, it is actually called "CROSSDRESSERS.com....The No 1 community for crossdressers, their family and friends" and the OP was constructing this thread within the context of this title and is, therefore, not a "confused individual" as you suggest

As an "ordinary" crossdresser I have not yet witnessed this "dumping on" that is refered to in your post but do find a wide assortment of views and opinions on the spectrum that we all inhabit....just as I would expect on this type of forum.



From my perspective, you’re saying “NO” to us, and many GG's who visit this site are also firmly in the negative in regards to MtF crossdressing. With this in mind, it’s better to say nothing. I really don’t care if your marriage “works,” or if your relationship works in some predetermined correct way – I’m here to share the joy of crossdressing with other crossdressers who may feel the same way, and anything to the contrary is viewed by me as an unfortunate intrusion…
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Where do you get the idea the OP is saying anything like "NO" to us...when no such statement was implied or inferred in anything written in the opening post or elsewhere.

IMO virtually all threads I have seen posted by GG's have appeared to me to be positve, well thought through and heart-felt by the individual

I am pleased to hear that you are here to share the joys of Crossdressing with others.... that, after all, is what we are all here for....but that does also include the GG's who in my view add a level of evenhandedness to the proceedings making the forum all the richer for their involvement


.....what do you expect? This place is, by and large, fairly benign, but beware of those who don’t care about anything, let alone helping someone like the aforementioned GG. Lurking (and reading) may be a better option at times, if understanding is truly your goal…

Frederique, this reply seems to fall into the category of "...those who don't care about..." and appears to be nothing more than an overly interlectual attempt at just shooting down the GG's just because they are here

[Shananigans]

I'm really a little confused by this sub-topic of whether or not this is a good site for a GG. It seems that the argument is that GGs would feel more comfortable talking to GGs on an exclusive GG forum... Have y'all ever been to those forums?? I'm going to guess that you haven't. Exclusionary forums are usually excluding groups of people for a reason. They don't WANT crossdressers on that forum. It can be just as hateful as this forum in the MTF section...it seems like FTMs, lesbians, and GGs are generally stereotyped and disrespected on a regular basis. I'm not exactly sure how to show it...you either recognize it, or you don't...I'm not going to draw pictures for explanations. The reason I came here wasn't because I was frightened or hurt...and, I am probably more confused now than when I first came here lol. I just came here because I wanted to talk to other people about it. Again, SOs of CDs that are in the closet are JUST AS CLOSETED. When my SO told me about being a CD...I didn't really care to get involved on any forum. I was reading some book at the time (it might have been My Husband Betty), and it was talking about Tr-Ess meetings. I remember saying that I would feel more comfortable going out with a group of people...but, I noted that members of Tr-Ess were probably considerably older than me and my SO. I also didn't really care to go to like an organized meeting place...with speakers and planned activities. It sounds lame as Hell. I got bored one night and was looking up support sites. A lot of the sites were just sausage fests and webcamming. Most people assumed I was a CD. So, I got a bunch of messages that were like, "You are sooooooo pretty. I have been looking a long time for another pretty CD to play with...but, a lot of people just don't look that good. You look completely natural...do you want to chat?" And, this would be a little awkward, but I would usually reply with, "Hey, I'm in a relationship, but I am open to talk anyone. I'm also a GG...so, yeah...that's probably why I look really natural." And, then, no one would want to talk to me because I was a GG. (In other words, you are hot...but, I really was hoping for a penis). This was before I knew all about "penis fetishes," so I thought it was really very creepy. So, I stayed away from those sites. I also went to a GG site...and, it was really depressing. I understand having to rant...I need a good rant sometimes. And, I like to help other girls out...so, I would read a lot of stuff and try to respond. But, it bummed me out. The GGs here really ARE trying in their relationships...there is a lot of love here. I think all relationships have problems, but who else is there to turn to when you get pissed that your boyfriend stretched out your dress? (lol) The difference is that you can say what is bothering you here, and you will get helpful replies. It's not very helpful to paint this picture that all men are b*stards and that all CDs are just the epitome of selfish, stupid male behavior. It doesn't really happen here...and, if it does, it's usually pretty rare. I can actually only think of one GG that paints that picture for us sometimes in the Loved Ones section....but, I'm not sure she's even on this forum anymore. (She didn't get great reception or support from even the other GGs here). So, then, my SO found THIS site. I got on it, and I jumped right in with it. I liked talking about makeup and clothes...I posted a bit in the Loved Ones. My SO pretty much got the answers that he needed and left. I think he only sticks around to occasionally stalk my journal on here lol. But, for me, it was just nice to have people that I could talk to where TG conversation didn't have to be hidden. I learned a lot about issues regarding the male face and makeup. I learned a lot about breast forms, waist enhancements, and all kinds of other crap. I actually know more about CDing than my boyfriend who is actually the CD. Now that my SO is "out of the closet," I can talk to anyone about it. But, I have found that it is really hard to talk to people about this. It's not that they aren't accepting...it's not that I am shy about it...it's just that I know way more than they do...so, they aren't very helpful. So, in the end, it's just better to come here. In the meantime, I've met a lot of really cool people here that I know I can talk to about anything. And, they are always going to be more helpful because they actually know what I am talking about. Plus, I still have fun talking about gender issues, makeup, and clothes. ;)

So, when people get on here and diss GGs...or, unload trope after trope of sexist stupidity. I'll usually get snappy back with them. I won't just get lost and take my opinion elsewhere, because most of the time I have contributed more to this forum than the person in question. I've been down that road a few times where I get so pissed and offended that I give this forum the finger for a few weeks. But, inevitably, I'll get a PM from people that I like. If it's a person that also has contributed more than 2,000 posts to this community, maybe I'll pay more attention. So, until this site is no longer a "community" site that is open to ANYONE who cares about TG issues...I'll probably be around. If it becomes exclusive, it will either turn into a sausage fest or a parade of Debbie Downers...and, I was only on those types of sites for a hot minute before I peaced out.

This makes it pretty important to me that other non-trans people get a good reception here. It's important to people that are actually OUT in the community, walking around, and meeting people to have a level of understanding from non-trans people. I want people to understand, because it also makes MY life easier. I may not be trans, but I have to deal with pretty much everything that my SO deals with from other people. And, because I was raised as a female...I'm highly aware of how vulnerable we are when out and about. My SO may have no f*cking clue...but, I do. So, it's nice to know there are people that come here that aren't trans, and who may leave with a good opinion on trans people/trans couples. It's how opinions and views of communities are spread. This is why a couple of idiots that are louder than the normal people here really get on my nerves. I always think, "Ugh...that's going to be what someone leaves with...that all CDs are sexist pricks with a fetish for pricks, and who think every GG is jealous of them." This website actually came up in my sexuality class in college, and people used it for information for their research papers. The main forum was ALL that they saw. So, that's why I get my panties in a knot about it. The more non-trans people that are understanding and do not stare at my SO and I walking down the street, the better my night is going to be. I WANT people to come here that aren't trans and leave with a positive opinion. Sites that are exclusive or that focus on f*cking each other rarely accomplish anything noteworthy. I guess it's all about your level of expectation for the people around you. I have very high expectations of the trans community, because I know it's a community under the microscope right now. When people pull back from that microscope and are ready to make their "final judgement," it would be really awesome for me if it ended up something positive. It would make my life and the life of my SO much easier...and, we'd probably be going out a lot more.

[Foxglove]

I'm really a little confused by this sub-topic of whether or not this is a good site for a GG. It seems that the argument is that GGs would feel more comfortable talking to GGs on an exclusive GG forum...

Sorry, Shan, that was my fault. I'm the one who started it all by asking a stupid/naive question. Not the first time in my life I've done that, but I got my answer, and I'm quite happy with it.

I was looking at the issue from my own personal perspective: I wasn't dealing with an SO, but rather my son. I didn't think he'd be comfortable with this forum because he'd never seen me in girl-mode. So for him to come on this forum and see me in that way I thought would be a problem for him. In fact, he hasn't asked about this forum or about anything else for that matter.

That's what raised the question in my mind: would a GG be more comfortable starting with the Loved Ones forum or the MTF forum? The answer everyone gave me is that GG's will be comfortable enough here right off the bat (provided of course that they're given a proper welcome). I'm happy with that. I'm happy that GG's are comfortable here.

I'd like to repeat that I didn't intend in any way to suggest that I personally don't welcome GG's here. As far as I'm concerned, everybody's welcome here. I was simply looking at my own personal situation with my son and was wondering if it might apply to others. The answer I got was no, and as I've said, I'm quite happy with that.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Shananigans]

Annabelle,

I don't think a lot of people here have parents that are TG. But, I have seen a mom or two on here supporting their sons. So, your son would be more than welcome, obviously. Sometimes, certain issues pop up on the MTF forum that could be a bit embarrassing to consider your parents being into...I think you catch my drift. I like to think of my parents as asexual creatures...if I have to put on my nurse hat...I will...but, that's as far as it goes lol. So, the Loved Ones section may be a good starting place if he wanted to join. But, I mean, he's obviously more than welcome anywhere. I even joined the FTM section just to be more knowledgeable, show support, and learn. So, you could just talk to him about it and note that this place is an option.

[Foxglove]

I don't think a lot of people here have parents that are TG. Sometimes, certain issues pop up on the MTF forum that could be a bit embarrassing to consider your parents being into...I think you catch my drift.

Oh, I more than catch your drift. You'd have to know my son. He's cool with things in ways and in other ways he's not. The idea that I'm TG doesn't bother him. But I don't think he wants to know any of the specifics. Not right now at any rate. I think he's going to need some time, maybe a lot of it, before he's ready to start dealing with that. That's why I found a forum for children of trans parents (transparent parents?) for him. Let him talk to other young people who are accepting of their parents, and he'll see it's not the end of the world.

One of my contacts in a Trans organization here in Ireland suggested that some day he'll be proud and happy to wear a badge that says, "Somebody I love is transgender." I had to laugh at that. I think my son would be just as likely to wear a dress as he would that badge. As I said, he's cool with things in ways and not cool with them in other ways. You have to know him.

Annabelle