Are you part of the solution or are you part of the problem?

[KlaireLarnia]

This has been eating at me for a while and the post below has been written, re-written and re-written again. Please don't crucify me for it but I hope you will take it in the spirit it is written

As MTF cross dressers we sit outside the mainstream of “society” because of what we do and the lack of understanding of why we do it - because as men, society does not allow us to wear clothes designed, styled and coloured for the opposite sex. Women can wear male or more masculine clothes thanks in part to the sexual revolution that has taken place over the past 30-40 years. We, as cross-dressers, sit in a similar place to where homosexuals sat say 90 years ago. We are seen as abnormal, somewhat immoral and frankly weird/perverted. Remember homosexuality was once seen as a medical illness which needed “treatment and curing”. It took a lot of time, and effort to convince the majority that it was normal, acceptable and nothing to fear. Even now we are not fully there, there are elements which don’t want or fear them. From my experience male homosexuality is less tolerated than female homosexuality – and the sex industry has played a large part in this perception.

And so in our part of the spectrum we also face barriers and problems. MTF cross dressing is seen with an element of distain, distrust and perhaps fear. Female cross dressing can often be seen as power dressing, smart dressing, being assertive. I know and understand there are FTM transsexuals who are probably treated as badly as we are at times, but as the largest section of cross-dressing is MTF – so it is that section that has become synonymous with it. FTM cross-dressers can also hide in plain sight a lot better than a MTF transsexual can, there are a lot of males who have a feminine look to their faces. Sadly we as MTF cross-dressers are instantly placed in the same area as homosexuals by society as it has this initial conception that anyone who wishes to dress in female clothes must also be homosexual which is more often than not incorrect. I would guess at least 90% of us who have come out to female partners have had that question asked or put to us. Perhaps as other posts here have suggested we are lumped into this “LGBT” community to give us a place or sense of being part of something when most of us who are cross dressers (and not transgendered) do not associate with this community as it is not related to who we are. As a straight, heterosexual man – I want as much to do with this LGBT community as a 4 year old child wants to sit in an opera house and listen to Beethoven for 4 hours.

The other large issues and stigma we face is that cross dressing can be seen as a sexual kick thing. While this has an element of truth for some again for the majority it is wrong, but the public only sees what it wants to at times and finds it easy to explain something like this as some sort of perverted fantasy/fetish/kick.
There are many degrees of cross dressing and reasons for doing it and this is perhaps what makes it so hard for the mass public to accept or understand. With something like homosexuality it is very simple in respect of what it is (you are attracted to the same sex), it is also understood that it is do with a person’s genetic makeup. It is also something that happens (mostly) behind closed doors – thus the public can largely ignore it or pretend it does not happen. While cross dressing is initially a very private thing, it can also become very public. Some do it in the privacy of our homes under strict circumstances, hiding even from those we love. Others - myself included - venture out into the wide world. So this then leads me to ask if we - the people who actually cross dress & venture out into the wide word - are part of the solution or are we actually part of the problem with regards to the stigma attached to what we do.

I think that society is ready and able to accept that men wish to express a more feminine or softer side. Some years ago a man wearing a pink shirt would have instantly had him branded as homosexual and shunned, but now we can wear them at any point in the day - formal or casual – no one cares. But I think the issue comes when we try and be something we are not. Whether we are doing that so that we can have the freedom we desire, the ability to wear what we want or because we want to be part of something we cannot otherwise take part in. I think that is where the public perception and tolerance comes to an end. When someone is being what they want to be and expressing who they are it is fine, people can grasp that – they may not like it but they can grasp it. Remember when punks & hippies came into the world. People hated them and where scared of them at first, but eventually it was seen as a sign of expression as most of the people where perfectly decent – they just had a point to make and they did it well. But when someone tries to be something they are not, that is when the problems start. I wear women’s clothes. My reasons are sound – it is an expression of who I am, how I feel and a way of saying I WANT to be able to do this. But at all times I give the appearance of being male. Sadly even I sometimes look at a man who is trying to pass as a woman and think that they are taking a step too far. That they are making it hard for people like me to have the freedom that I... that THEY desire by trying to be something they are not.

Society has limits of tolerance. These are constantly being pushed to allow more people to live a happy, fulfilled and complete life. But changes come at a cost. Someone, somewhere will always loose out. Homosexuals became accepted, but could not marry or show affection in public. Homosexuals where able to marry/be formal partners, people questioned the sanctity of marriage and the foundation it stands on. So with cross dressing, people may accept the reasons, but not the actual act. People go “en femme”, re-enforcing stereotypes and hinder the progress of those who do not. I don’t mean to be rude but I am willing to place money on my next statement: You could get 4 average cross dressers who go out fully “en femme” and put them with 6 real women in a line up. Most people will get at least 2-3 if not all 4 of them. Most simply do not blend in that well. You look like what you are. Men dressed as and trying to look/act like women. And this is where I feel the public have the issue. I watched a TV programme a few nights ago and in it they introduced two women and instantly I could see they were male and this was before they had opened their mouths or the presenter had said anything – and I was right as it was explained 30 seconds later they where two transsexuals. This is not a nasty comment, just a point about the how people can see things others feel are hidden.

So what is the solution? Sadly I don’t think there is one. We have no great cause to get behind or help us. We have no single reason for being the way we are, nothing we can use to prove we are “normal” (It is not like it is a simple gene being swapped or damaged or we would all be the same in our reasons for dressing). We are fragmented in what we want out of it and more importantly how best to achieve it.

So I will go and leave it with this thought: Before you walk out the door ask yourself: Are you helping or hindering progress. Are you part of the solution or are you part of the problem? Personal I think I am both in that I am trying to break down the barriers but in doing so I am therefore part of the problem.

[reb.femme]

Hi Klaire,

I agree with what you say about LGBT. It isn't something that represents me as a heterosexual CD. Freddy raised this very point just a little while ago. Worth the read if you haven't seen it. Whilst the T may represent an entire spectrum of people, I personally do not feel that as an entity it has any application to me.

Are we by going out, part of the problem or part of the solution? Good question, but unable to offer any opinion worthy of note on that one. Far too deep for this late hour, but I just accept that this is the world and as you say, it currently has it's limits on what it will accept. Many will argue, and rightly so, that without attempting to change things, the status quo is maintained. Sometimes, life's a bitch! :straightface:

Sorry my contribution doesn't amount to much, but I'm sure it'll take some of the flak off of you! :devil:

Rebecca x

[Kate Simmons]

I guess the question that comes to my mind regarding this is: "Is it just something we "do" or is it something we "feel"? The "problem" is not seen the same way by everyone, nor is the "solution" as no matter what we do, we can never please everyone, so we just take our best shot.:)

[JennyDoTell]

Most people in general fear rejection. Whether it's from a loved one, co-worker, or stranger. Like I stated in another thread, I fear being outed in my hometown, but really don't give a dam in a large city.

[Sara Jessica]

People go “en femme”, re-enforcing stereotypes and hinder the progress of those who do not. I don’t mean to be rude but I am willing to place money on my next statement: You could get 4 average cross dressers who go out fully “en femme” and put them with 6 real women in a line up. Most people will get at least 2-3 if not all 4 of them. Most simply do not blend in that well. You look like what you are. Men dressed as and trying to look/act like women. And this is where I feel the public have the issue. I watched a TV programme a few nights ago and in it they introduced two women and instantly I could see they were male and this was before they had opened their mouths or the presenter had said anything – and I was right as it was explained 30 seconds later they where two transsexuals. This is not a nasty comment, just a point about the how people can see things others feel are hidden.

Maybe you can start by telling me what stereotypes I'm apparently reinforcing & how I am somehow hindering progress for those who choose not to go out and then I'll reply to tell you how utterly wrong much of your premise is.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi KL, To say it's right or wrong oh well it's who I am and it's what I do.

[Lainie]

I don't understand what "progress" would look like to you.
I go out wearing women's clothing--typically skirt, blouse, heels, purse--a mustache, and no make up. Generally people are tolerant, friendly, sometimes amused. Am I contributing to your vision, or causing trouble?
Some here think I'm "damaging the cause", but I'm not sure what the cause is, or how we are supposed to get there.

[Julogden]

I'm not about to dissect that long-winded piece, but suffice it to say that I disagree with massive amounts of it that to me are just plain wrong.

You seem to have an agenda, but it isn't particularly apparent as to what it is, other than causing arguments here.




Tomato tomahto. I believe the LGBT (QQISTUV) community is more an activist and support complex. Be in or not. I am sort of selfish though, when the community get rights I don't think those who are not on the train should be claiming victory. You will reap the benefits but it is sort of like watching your favorite sports team and giving your buddy a high five when they score. You didn't do it, you watched it. and yet you are marginalized and degraded in standard life because of it. Better to be part of something than stand alone I think.

That is very true. In the majority of instances many people here don't want to be part of the community because, in actuality. they are almost as narrow minded as a majority of society. They don't want to be "part" of the gay community...because...they think being gay is ?????different??? Wrong????? Not normal??? I find that many who rail the hardest have the biggest issue with gays. The biggest concern for their own heterosexuality. Why otherwise would it be a concern?(wonder how many men worried about that when they marched with women 50 years ago? They weren't women so why bother being part of the movement???)

I don't see being classed as Transgendered is a concern. I kind of like that at least in the beginning the L&G community took us under their wing in the fight for equal rights. Because of the non-committal attitudes of the trans community, the L&G community now often finds us to be the millstone. They would not cry at all if the T community said leave us alone. Why? Because we are still in the "pervert" class (and yes that includes guys, and maybe even MORE so, who just wear women's underwear. Yes as a person who only underdresses what could the worst that could happen? (asked the underdresser in 1935 who would have ended up classed as gay because after all I am sure that the people in charge of Germany thought if you wore panties you HAD to be gay). Meh, it won't happen again right?

AMEN!!! Lorileah, you've you've summed up some things really well that have occurred to me too, well said.

Carol

[susan54]

There is another way of looking at this. Apply Occam's Razor. There is no problem. Any problem you perceive is your perception.

[Debglam]

Maybe you can start by telling me what stereotypes I'm apparently reinforcing & how I am somehow hindering progress for those who choose not to go out and then I'll reply to tell you how utterly wrong much of your premise is.

Bump. :yt:

So we should all stay in the closet for fear of being read by the public? Sorry but I'm having too much fun.

Cut our ties to the LGBT community? Let me let you in on a little secret - the addition of the "T" to "LGB" had put a burden on them and a benefit to us. We, whether or not pure CD's are part of the transgender community or not, are riding on their coattails. At one time, here in the US up until the 1970's, it was a crime to be dressed as a member of the opposite sex. These laws fell by the wayside when the gay community fought the laws against homosexual conduct. I may be heterosexual but I know who my friends are. Are we gonna always be 100% together on the issues? No, but close enough for me.

Klaire, I really don't mean this as an insult but I think you should really look within yourself and see why you feel the way you do. Why are you so concerned about what the public thinks about CD's in public? Why do you care about being associated with the LGB community? IMHO, once we get comfortable in our own skins and take ownership of being a CD or trans or whatever, these issues just don't matter.

I wish you the best,
Debby

[Tracii G]

My local GLBT supports TG and Cd's and includes them as part of their group.
With out their help here CD's would have never had support other than small support groups.
GLBT here is great.

[bimini1]

I still can't for the life of me wrap my head around the idea that any straight CDer could possibly point a finger at gays and condemn homosexuality. That to me is mind-boggling.

[DaphneGrey]

I am not part of a solution or problem I am just being me.

I am also quite proud to be part of the GLBT community. Your post gives you away. I could be wrong but I sense quite a bit of self loathing in OP. This problem you perceive has more to do with your own insecurity than anybody going out en femme and living their lives.

If everything you do is governed by what other people think of you. You are going to live an unfulfilling and miserable life. No mater what clothes you are wearing.

[michelle64]

i opposed the "t" but it feel on deaf ears..lumping cd's in that group was a huge mistake..far as blending in i agree 99% do not..there are a few of us who can though..i recently was shopping in greasy guy mode at a local dots fashion store and ended up educating another shopper about crossdressers.she thought i was bisexual until i produced a pic of myself and my lovely GG..after that we both shopped together (she asked many questions) with her offering all her favorite stores which i might like..in the end that may be whats most important-educating those who think we are bisexual (or other)--the association with the glb's has not been very helpful to the heterosexual cd (and many know why).

[Voulez-Vous]

This thread is a perfect example of why there will never ever be unity in this so-called "community". Too many people doing "their own thing" and going in too many different directions. You have CD's running around with facial hair and masks and whatever else. There are far more sub-groups within "T" than there are in gay or lesbian. The "T Community" is not united behind one solitary cause.
Part of the solution or part of the problem? The OP didn't say what they even think the actual problem is! Is the problem that CD's should be more passable? Not go in public? Another can o' worms...

[DaphneGrey]

i opposed the "t" but it feel on deaf ears..lumping cd's in that group was a huge mistake..far as blending in i agree 99% do not..there are a few of us who can though..i recently was shopping in greasy guy mode at a local dots fashion store and ended up educating another shopper about crossdressers.she thought i was bisexual until i produced a pic of myself and my lovely GG..after that we both shopped together (she asked many questions) with her offering all her favorite stores which i might like..in the end that may be whats most important-educating those who think we are bisexual (or other)--the association with the glb's has not been very helpful to the heterosexual cd (and many know why).

I dont know why it was bad for CDs please explain it to me

[Babeba]

FTM cross-dressers can also hide in plain sight a lot better than a MTF transsexual can, there are a lot of males who have a feminine look to their faces.

I don't think I would ever, in a million years, pass for a guy. I'm short, small shouldered, tiny waisted, large-hipped, with a chest that would not hide very easily. True, women can wear 'masculine' clothing, but in some ways this hinders the FTM transsexual because it masks his true identity and makes it a lot harder for him to identify visually as trans. Many transmen face violence, as well. Neither FTM or MTF is easy, but putting down their struggle will not make your own easier.



Perhaps as other posts here have suggested we are lumped into this “LGBT” community to give us a place or sense of being part of something when most of us who are cross dressers (and not transgendered) do not associate with this community as it is not related to who we are. As a straight, heterosexual man – I want as much to do with this LGBT community as a 4 year old child wants to sit in an opera house and listen to Beethoven for 4 hours.
The Stonewall Riots were held because a bunch of homosexuals objected to a bunch of cross dressers and transsexuals being arrested in a police raid - unlike the gay patrons, men wearing women's clothing couldn't fade into the crowds outside and avoid arrest. Worse, cross dressing was considered a seriously criminal psychiatric condition back then - as a heterosexual cross dresser I assume you like being able to walk outside without being thrown into a prison hospital, so cut the gay community and GLBT some slack.

Personally, I love being a supporter of the GLBTQ community- I'm kinda B (aren't most of us humans?), my best friend is G, my boyfriend is T, and I am so flattered when I get hit on by L's or other B's. I know that I beat to a different drum, am passionate about human rights, and like to self identify as Q.



The other large issues and stigma we face is that cross dressing can be seen as a sexual kick thing. While this has an element of truth for some again for the majority it is wrong, but the public only sees what it wants to at times and finds it easy to explain something like this as some sort of perverted fantasy/fetish/kick.
You know, I've looked - and I don't think I have ever seen any sort of proper study breaking down how many people are cross dressers for what reasons. There are a lot of guys who like wearing panties for kicks, and it's a pretty downright normal fetish. Probably a lot of guys will have tried on panties who did it for the thrill without wondering if it made them a cross dresser or a woman inside.

Besides, have you heard of fifty shades of grey? It's pretty popular to be kinky right now!

[TeresaL]

My wife just asked me if I would visit this new evangelical church, and I said I wouldn't. I'm not going to be a part of another bigoted, discriminating, accusational, exclusive or judgmental church. OTOH, being a musician, I've somehow and very recently found myself on the worship team in an LGBT friendly church. If I ever choose a church, it would be this one, because it is "inclusive."

The rights that LGB fought for and have within their grasp is being handed to us as transgender, and here we have those who want to be exclusive and be a CD only (whatever the hell that means) and throw the opportunity away. As a transgender under the LGBT banner, we can have some form of freedom from society's discriminating and insipid pressure. My knowledge of LGBT is superficial at best, but I know firsthand the pain from the shackles and bondage of being stuffed into the closet, after I was outed to everyone I am close too. As of recent, I am no longer in the closet, and I'm not going back in if my very life depends on it.

If I lose everything but myself, at least I can then be myself. LGBT therefore, and IMO, has prepared a path for transgendered folks to walk on with dignity.

NOTE: Instead of running away from transgender, maybe we should be running towards it because the rights won by LGBT should be most precious to us as cross-dressers. At least those who want the freedom to be themselves.

[Beverley Sims]

I personally have a different view and have little to add to the discussion/argument or fishing trip that seems to be applied here.

[docrobbysherry]

Hopefully, I'm not part of, "The problem".

But, I'm PRETTY CERTAIN Sherry is NOT part of, "The solution"!

[Lynn Marie]

At first glance I was going to ignore this thread becuse the OP was so long winded. There wasn't much else of interest so I came back to this one and read it through. I kept saying to myself as I was going paragraph to paragraph, "so get to the point!"

And we never did. Everything stated by the OP is common knowledge to all of us. It's just the way things are. I go out dressed to the nines and looking as good as I possibly can, and yet I'm "made" just as quickly as some guy in heels, a skirt and a moustache! There's no justice. I personally feel the guy dressed with the moustache is making all of us look bad, but then again, when I'm "made", so am I.

I give up. I'll just do the best I can and stay close to the LGBT community. They don't judge nearly so harshly.

[GaleWarning]

Mmmmm .... let me see now .... are crossdressers who ignore their wives/SOs part of the solution or the problem?

[Sophia Claire]

You know, as a political analyst (among other things), I listen to a lot of public figures make a lot of speeches. And when politicians and influential public figures go on long, controversial, sanctimonious diatribes (such as the OP in this thread) lasting longer than five minutes, I have developed this knee-jerk reaction: I immediately go searching for an ulterior motive. And I always find one. Always.

Analysis of this post indicates that the writer feels inadequate justification for her own gallivanting about town and thus legitimizes her actions by questioning the legitimacy of everyone else's. Am I part of the problem? What, because I don't pass I should just stay at home and do everyone a favor?

It was a good save to lump herself in with the rest of us who are ignorantly hindering progress. Makes her seem like she's not out to do exactly what she's doing, which is basically telling the rest of us that we shouldn't be out and about because we're just making asses out of ourselves and all of us and we'll never be accepted if we do that.

Which is utter nonsense, by the by. We'll never be accepted until we become commonplace and people at large realize that we're not that weird, we're not perverts, we don't want to touch your children, and we're not ill. We're just people who want to be accepted as we are.

Perhaps I've misread this. Again, my tolerance for controversy is about five minutes. But judging by the reactions of some of the other ladies here, I don't think I'm missing the point (such that it was. Good catch, Lynn Marie!).

[max]

Hmm interesting take Sophia. I took from this post a large degree of self-loathing, it seems you agree with that characterization?

[Jolene Robertson]

Like Lynn and others, I read this thread last night but did not want to respond until I had a chance to digest what the OP was trying to say (not sure I do yet). But I agree with some of the other posts here, we need to support each other, most people who I have encountered who have to judge others harshly for being them selves but think they are more justified usually have so personal problem that they have not dealt with. And seam to feel that by putting others down it somehow raises them up a notch or relieves their guilt.

I for one can't pass but it is who I am and I accept that and am finally happy with me. If that is part of someones problem "THEN GET OVER IT"! I would rather be me than keep trying to pass someone else's idea of who they think I should be. I am in the closet to most of my family only because I love them and would never do anything to hurt them. But on my time I'm finally free.

Thanks for letting me rant

Hugs
Jolene

[noeleena]

Hi.

A male who is trying to be what hes not. okay for some that may be the case, many here do a very good take on being as close to or look like with clothes makeup shoes & how they conduct them selfs in female campany, even down to voice & maniersims .

& i admit with out any dought they will far surpase me in most of those details, why.

Well my facial features attest to that, yet theres a difference, im a woman. ooops so whats wrong here, i was born different .

I am whats known as a intersexed woman. & live as who i am. yet if you line me up with twenty other women from our membership of 800 women im a member of with in our groups they accept im a woman. how many do i know who have male features & deep voices, not many i can tell you yet we have a few,

So that being the case, im then a part of the problem......

iv been In front of over 3,millon people nation wide, been interviewed & for Papers plus was on the net. 287 sites world wide, & spoken to many 100,s of people & interacted with them & answered thier ?'s,

The subject matter

........., Whats it like liveing as a woman who is different,........

Im in public view all the time looked at where ever i go, im allso well known & have friends going back 54 years who know me from then & are still my friends,

The feed back iv had & get is one of iv had the gut's to just be who i am & face people head on. why have i been accepted ,

Because i took the time to share my life with them the changes that would take place & what i was to go through,

Okay back to your ? am i a problem or have i done what most can not.

& you know what .......im just a backwards Kiwi from down under .a nobody who got off..... her..... backside & did it,

And .....im accepted,



Am i still a part of the problem.

...noeleena...

[Lilly Black]

"I want as much to do with this LGBT community as a 4 year old child wants to sit in an opera house and listen to Beethoven for 4 hours."

which means you don't care about equality or civil rights. which is why you're part of the problem.

[Jenna J]

I think most of the replies on here looked way too far and took some comments different than what they were meant to be. How quick some of you are to throw one of your own to the curb because you may think you disagree.

[sometimes_miss]

Are you part of the solution or are you part of the problem?
That really all depends; What do you define as 'the solution', and what do you define as 'the problem'?
In my mind, the problem is that by taking on traditional feminine attire and behavior which evolution has designed to attract men sexually, we are basically, by behavior, telling women we don't want to be sexually attractive to them, while telling men that we want them to be sexually attracted to us. As the old saying 'a picture is worth a thousand words', I feel that this is pretty simple to understand.
The 'solution'? Each of us has to figure out exactly why we have developed the desire to do this, and face those reasons head on. Only then will we be able to be able to define exactly who, and what, we are, and how we will be able to express that visually to the rest of the societies we live in, in such a way as to successfully be able to pursue the life we desire. Right now, after about 35 years of studying everything I can find, I'm only half way there; and don't see any brainstorm coming that will enable me to complete the rest of my endeavor. But I'll be damned if I'm going to quit.

[TGMarla]

I don't see why I have to be either part of the problem or part of the solution to any perceived problem. The premise would suggest that if one is not out and about, actively trying to break down barriers, that one is by default reinforcing the problem. I'm a crossdresser. And while this is not palatable to the general population as a whole, it doesn't mean that everyone who engages in this particular activity necessarily wants it to become accepted or mainstream.

Here's a revelation for you: It's already accepted!

How else can you explain how a show like "Ru Paul's Drag Race" has held on to a cable viewing audience like it has. People see it, view it as an amusing anomaly (which it is), and shrug their shoulders at it. They either watch it, or they don't. But no one bothers to focus on it all that negatively. And does anyone really think we're ever going to get to the point where your average slightly narrow-minded heterosexual male is going to accept crossdressers carte blanche without any kind of negative emotion attached to it? We always cite the homosexual community as some kind of success story, but the gay community has not garnered the acceptance of those same heterosexuals that I just mentioned. Crossdressing is an awkward anomaly, and it will always be seen as such in the mainstream. We are never going to be at a point where total androgynous acceptance is the norm.

And on one level, I don't even want it to be. I like wearing women's clothes because they are just that: women's clothes. If it was only about the clothing, I wouldn't bother with bras and boobies. I wouldn't bother to tuck when I went out dressed en femme. I wouldn't bother with a wig. When I dress, I get to experience (on one level, at least) life as a woman. I seriously doubt that any level of militant protest and civil rights action is going to make female emulation by otherwise normal males all that accepted by those persons I mentioned above.

After all, when we say "accepted by mainstream society", to whom are we actually referring? The gay community in general, already accepts crossdressing on some level. Some look down upon it; others don't. Women are somewhat more tolerant of it than men are, unless it's their own man doing it (generally speaking). It's the heterosexual, predominantly male audience that really has the negative opinion that is the crux of the "problem" to which you refer. And no amount of civil action is ever going to change that. Many of us already march in "pride" parades. And yet nothing changes. Unless one of us is truly passable as a woman, others will always point and exclaim "Look! It's a guy in a dress!" I doubt that any amount of time that passes will change that reaction.

So what's the problem? Maybe it's us that needs to accept the situation rather than everyone else. Maybe the problem is that we don't accept the fact that when we go outside all dolled up, others will often, if not usually, see right through the charade. Perhaps it's us that needs to understand and accept that we are presenting ourselves to others around us in a way that is not what others consider normal. Maybe that's "the solution".

[BRANDYJ]

I am not part of the problem, not am I a part of the solution. The so called problem and the solution lies in the hands of our society at large. There are certain forms of CDing I can't stand. Just as there is a segment of gays I can't stand. I don't get it that a man with a beard and or mustache would venture out in female clothes and no makeup not trying to present as a female. I don't like or get the gays that have the over the top flamboyant mannerisms and gestures that to me mock females. of those types, I don't think society will ever accept or like. The best we can hope for is that we privately shake our heads and live and let live without being violent to them, making fun of them and humiliating them publicly. They are doing good job of doing that themselves. Some forms of CDing will never be accepted. Just as some forms of gay actions will not be accepted even among others in their ranks of gays. We will never be friends or see eye to eye if you are a flamboyant gay with over the top feminine mocking gestures, or a man that presents himself in a dress or skirt and blose with a beard and mustache. It's just the way it is. So none of you are part of the problem, nor part of the solution. For those I don't like for their manner of dress or actions, I just don't want to have anything to do with them and will never get in their face about it to hurt them. if they know I don't like or appreciate them, well, it's their problem, not mine. I choose to not be around them or befriend them since we have nothing in common and I don't care for what I see. No one has the right to tell me what is right or wrong for me to like, understand or accept. Just as I don't have the right to tell society what they must like or accept. Like I said, it is what it is.

[Sarah Doepner]

When someone is being what they want to be and expressing who they are it is fine, people can grasp that – they may not like it but they can grasp it. Remember when punks & hippies came into the world. People hated them and where scared of them at first, but eventually it was seen as a sign of expression as most of the people where perfectly decent – they just had a point to make and they did it well. But when someone tries to be something they are not, that is when the problems start. I wear women’s clothes. My reasons are sound – it is an expression of who I am, how I feel and a way of saying I WANT to be able to do this. But at all times I give the appearance of being male. Sadly even I sometimes look at a man who is trying to pass as a woman and think that they are taking a step too far. That they are making it hard for people like me to have the freedom that I... that THEY desire by trying to be something they are not.

So what is the solution? Sadly I don’t think there is one. We have no great cause to get behind or help us. We have no single reason for being the way we are, nothing we can use to prove we are “normal” (It is not like it is a simple gene being swapped or damaged or we would all be the same in our reasons for dressing). We are fragmented in what we want out of it and more importantly how best to achieve it.

So I will go and leave it with this thought: Before you walk out the door ask yourself: Are you helping or hindering progress. Are you part of the solution or are you part of the problem? Personal I think I am both in that I am trying to break down the barriers but in doing so I am therefore part of the problem.

It appears that the "Problem" is crossdressers going out in public and either not passing perfectly well or having society assume they are gay. The "Solution" proposed seems to be Just Give Up" or at least "Don't go out in public unless you pass so they will think you are a woman and not gay."

Crossdressers have a lot to learn from the GLB part of the community and if they are willing to share their success with us, lets take it. It's pubic ignorence of crossdressing that is the problem in my eyes, not being mistaken for gay or not passing well. If we can get a leg up or inspiration from the Pride movement, let's jump on it. Since the general pubic doesn't understand what CDing is all about now, we can sort out the details later, once they see we are viable.

I included the hippies and punks part because those groups were finally integrated into society because they wouldn't go away, not because the general public thought they were perfectly decent. They broke down barriers, not because they weren't noticed (which is what we are being asked to do here) but because they wouldn't disappear. Eventually the styles, politics and other life choices were examined and adopted by enough others that the original groups were assimilated by our 'Borg' society. Now long hippy hair is just as common on the former critics of hippies as anywhere else. Rednecks and retirees have ponytails and eat organic because the hippies wanted to be free in a society where they weren't seen as full members.

Society will accept crossdressers when they won't go away. When they find that no matter where they look there is something reminding them there are people out there who are not ready to be constrained by traditional gender experssion and will wear whatever clothing is appropriate to that inner compass. It has been a long steep road and it shows few signs of getting much less steep or closer to our goal, but it won't get easier if we just fade into the background.

[Babeba]

I think most of the replies on here looked way too far and took some comments different than what they were meant to be. How quick some of you are to throw one of your own to the curb because you may think you disagree.

As a mostly heterosexual female, in a committed relationship to a genetic male with a nonstandard gender identity, I am a staunch supporter of all things LGBTetc. The op seems very uncomfortable with my chosen people. The OP is not one of my own, solely due to their own personal choice.

A community like the lgbt community Gains strength not only from its core members but from its neighbours and allies... Together being united is a big, beautiful, powerful thing. It makes me so sad to see people like the OP distancing themselves from that community due to shame or guilt or some deep seated homophobia. I mean, who cares if some stranger thinks you might like men? Unless you are sleeping with them it is none of their damn business! If you are with them (as in committed to), trust me when I say being attracted to more than one gender is NOT a free pass to cheat, so it is not an issue.

[Tina B.]

Act up, was part of the problems for the gay community too, the stood up and brought attention to themselves in there fight for equality, just as many other gay groups did. If it weren't for those that are part of the problem standing up for the rest of us cowards in the closet, how do you think things will get any better, Exposer to something, brings a familiarity in time. Gays didn't get where they are by being polite, and staying out of sight, they got there by being loud and rude, they refused to be ignored any longer. They where also political savvy enough to know there is strength in numbers, so they created a very powerful base, by including Lesbians, and Bi's, and as a courtesy included the Trans people, although they really don't totally understand us, and they also know we have a number of homophobic people in our ranks.
Most of the changes in the laws that protect us today, we owe to them, and there movement. Once a year as a straight crossdresser, I stand on the sidewalk, and watch the gay pride parade march by, in my small Conservative community, led by men in dresses, proudly proclaiming there transness, with pride. most all of our local churches are there asking us to come join them, and the sidewalk seems to be filled with straights, there enjoining themselves, just to be apart of it.
So how could this possibly be part of the problem?
I may be part of the problem because of family concerns, I stay in the closet, so I'm not much help, but I will always vote, in the L.G.B.T.'s favor, and I go to support many fund raiser in the area put on on there behalf. I feel it's the least I can do.
As a straight Crossdresser, I'm proud to tell you I am a member of the L.G.B.T. community, and thankful for what they have done for us.
Tina B.

[Kaz]

Please, please, please, READ THE POST and inwardly digest! OK it is longer than most people's ability to take things in... but there are some really important issues here, that may be commonplace to many of us but which are REAL issues for the OP... RESPECT?

[Kali]

Please, please, please, READ THE POST and inwardly digest! OK it is longer than most people's ability to take things in... but there are some really important issues here, that may be commonplace to many of us but which are REAL issues for the OP... RESPECT?

Ok.

I read the OP carefully, but the best I can come up with us that there is little point to the extended tirade.

I dress because it is part of who I am, whatever it means beyond that doesn't really matter. I'm going out shopping with my wife today, dressed (pic in the appropriate place if you care). I'm not the most feminine looking person on the planent; I can'y help that I'm 6'4". At least my wife will be with me and she's 5'10" and will likely be in heels.

we will go to the mall, do some shopping, have a late lunh, and come home. One thing I get fropm the OP is that I am doing the CD "community" a disservice because I'm not 100% passable, and I'm not presenting as male. But the reality is that I am a person out with their spouse shopping. How I look or pressent shouldn't really matter. I see man & women all the time that cause my first thought to be "Don't they own a mirror?"

If I wasn't 6'4" I would likley draw little attention. I would blend in much better, and that's the best I can hope for. But I don't do things to draw attention to myself or my gender identity when out in the general public.

I don't really get the impression that the OP, if he saw me in public would think to themself "How dare that guy (I'm 99% certain it's a guy) go out in public dressed in clean, well-fitting clothes that are not gender appropriate. This will reflect badly on my crossdressing when I want to go out and show off my wild side."

[KellyJameson]

The problem is fear, it is a human problem that has always been with us and always will.

Each person is a part of the problem in that we add to the collective fear and each person is a solution in that we fight against the collective fear and this collection of fear is us.

One reason for creating and joining groups is to feel safe but inevitably these groups make war on each other whether it is gang against gang or nation against nation.

Man group versus woman group , straight group versus gay group .... ad infinitum

The relationship we have with fear defines the relationship we have with ourselves because fear is a part of us and the relationship we have with ourselves determines the relationship we have with others.

Everyone is trapped by the same problem and the only solution is to digg deep for the courage to move beyond fear, beyond the limits of that part of you that restricts the full expression and discovery of who you are.

The world will be changed one individual at a time, it is not about changing others but changing yourself in relation to others.

When you do not make your love of self (acceptance) dependant on being loved (being accepted) you will move away from fear.

Before we can change the world we must first change ourselves.

[Stephanie47]

For anyone who wishes to be part of the solution I strongly suggest relocating to Washington State. The legislature through the Revised Code of Washington has definitely codified an individual's right to appear en femme. The person is protected in employment, housing, etc. Some of the larger cities have even gone beyond the state law. So, there is no 'problem' to be solved. So, if you want to wear feminine clothing for whatever reason you may.

Then, all you have to figure out is why a substantial segment of society does not care for cross dressing. If you can figure that out, then you can figure out why a substantial number of people do not like African-Americans and other dark skin people, Latinos, Jews, gays and lesbians, foreigner, Muslims, Democrats and Republicans.

I choose to wear female clothing for private reasons the general public does not need to know.

[Babeba]

Please, please, please, READ THE POST and inwardly digest! OK it is longer than most people's ability to take things in... but there are some really important issues here, that may be commonplace to many of us but which are REAL issues for the OP... RESPECT?

I really feel (and maybe it is displaced, because I am not a cross dresser I only date one and the time we ventured outside dressed freaked me out no end when a bunch of drunks in a pickup slammed their breaks just after passing us and backed up super fast, and I thought it was about us) that part of the problem the OP has is instead of trying to draw strength from individuals and groups who have managed to gain some tolerance, acceptance and normalcy in the community at large, he feels he needs to try as hard as he might to distance himself from that.

I sense something of an uncomfortability in being the guy who breaks down gender for the people around him. At one point he mentions seeing two transwomen on TV and being able to tell right away they were trans - not that he was trying to be negative. Seriously?? Try putting in any other accepted minority in there. Let's say it was my ex boyfriend on TV, and you could tell right away he was Latino or something. WHO THE HELL WOULD CARE? Nobody in Canada, but in Costa Rica where he lives, he does face a lot of discrimination for being part black and part Asian as well as Latino/white.

The point at which I think the problem is solved is when people are not only comfortable identifying people as casually as saying, "oh, this is my friend Babs, she's a knitter' - but also when no one cares about it at all, and it is a non-issue. Someday I want for my dorky crafting habits to be more scandalous than my boyfriend's gender identity. I think this will happen only when people will get used to seeing gender variant people out and about, and when a whole lot of other people stand up and say, "seriously? Why is this a big deal to you? People are people," whenever they hear a trans phobic comment.

[Voulez-Vous]

Please, please, please, READ THE POST and inwardly digest! OK it is longer than most people's ability to take things in... but there are some really important issues here, that may be commonplace to many of us but which are REAL issues for the OP... RESPECT?

Important issues ?
Sorry, but NO, I don’t think so. It’s the same issue that gets cussed and discussed at least once a day on this forum (at least it seems that way). Nothing EVER gets resolved. There’s too much division and too much discord within this “community“ (what a joke). People end up getting mad and at odds with each other more than before the discussion started. There are no rules, thus there are no answers.

[Wildaboutheels]

All Humans ARE animals. Very few are willing or able to overcome tens of thousands of years of EVOLUTION which tells us to either MATE with as many females as possible if we are a male OR find a "good" male - a "successful" one - likely to be able to better provide for any offspring - IF one is a female.

Any Human who wears ANY items of clothing/makeup/wigs etc., designed to "trick" other Humans into believing we MIGHT be a possible "breeding" candidate will A L W A Y S make most Humans "uncomfortable" as long as our basic programming remains unchanged. Which means ANYONE, who wears the "wrong" clothes, be they male or female.

It's our basic programming people should blame, if one needs to blame something. It's NOT "Society" nor other people who choose to use other letter designations.

People are much smarter than that? I call BS. People know that scratching an insect bite, only makes it worse but they do it anyway. People know that coughing will only make a sore throat more sore but they do it anyway. Animal Instinct at work and nothing else.

"Society" does not care whether people were born the wrong sex OR simply CHOOSE for whatever reason to wear some or all of the items used to "showcase" ones sex.

Crossdressing will slowly but surely become more acceptable to people but ONLY to those people willing or wanting or needing to educate themselves.

People should simply wear what they like and are comfortable with and stop worrying about what others think. THAT is the solution.

[NicoleScott]

Like some others, I had a hard time figuring out what the problem/solution was. Here's my best guess: if you go out but can't pass, you reinforce the stigma (that we're gay, weirdo, etc.), and are part of the problem.
But if you can pass, you're part of the solution.
Really?
If you can pass, and nobody can tell that you're really a guy in a dress, then how does that serve to remove the stigma? You're see as just another woman in public.

[DonniDarkness]

I agree with nicole.

Passing as a gender binary is a gift left to hormones and genetics, served with a cold side of social mannerisms...This "passing" that everyone talks about is what keeps the public from knowing and accepting the transgendered people they see in their daily lives.

Passing in its best form is when you make people think to themselves....."Wow for a guy he sure does well for himself" Because that is a compliment that surpasses the social binary. It says your proud of who you are as a girly man. It says that your beautiful no matter who sees you. It says that your comfortable with yourself and you dont care who knows.

Acceptance and Passing isnt whether people think your a boy or a girl, its when you give them the clues to look past that to see the real you inside. That ladies and Gentlemen is Passing.

Do not conform to the Binary if you do not want to. Be yourself and Eff everyone else.

the L, G, and, B of our community have been practicing this mentality for a long time now. We should follow their example.

Celebrate who you are,
-Donni-

[busker]

Klaire, YES, we are part of the problem in that we DON'T conform to the expectations of a large portion of society and NO we are not part of the solution, the only solution available would be for us and any other sub-group that isn't conformist is to just go away. The hippy movement came at a different time when values were different, education was at a peak and people were seeking to change society--and did to a certain extent. Most of that is lost now.
Now, things are different. we are largely ignorant, schools are a mess with 30% dropouts yearly leading us to the bottom. compared to nations around the world, we are near the bottom of the list in nearly everything. Less education means less liberalism means following more conservative programs. Look at the NYTimes political map and you will see most of the nation is heavily leaning toward Republican ideas about society--conservative at best. Women are fighting for their rights again, voters are losing their rights, same-sex marriage is only in 6 states, 27 states are right-to-work states, unions are disappearing, social concerns are giving way to moneyed interests, conservation is a bad word. Sure, there are some places passing rights to protect the GLBT people but that doesn't mean ordinary citizens accept them--everything is by LEGISLATION--that doesn't mean socially acceptable.
You are correct in that society doesn't like to be fooled. gays go with gays, lesbians go with lesbians, bi's go with whomever, and heterosexuals do what they do, but crossdressers are the social spoilers. Are we out to attract males? How can anyone in their right mind want to walk around dressed as a woman and not want something? claiming a "feminine side" is a PERSONAL issue, not necessarily a social issue and it is hard to prove to non-believers that we are just a bit different in our gender makeup. We simply don't fit in. We can go out, do what we do and take our lumps if it comes to that. But acceptance in a real integrated way will never come. The GLB people are "invisible" to society for the most part--out of sight, out of mind--but a guy wearing a dress and a wig is simply one big target.
just my thoughts on this topic.

[Eryn]

Moderator warning:

The previous post referred to the country becoming more conservative in its philosophy. I'm allowing this to remain because it is germane to the discussion. Do not take this as justification for political comments.

Eryn

[kellycan27]

Important issues ?
Sorry, but NO, I don’t think so. It’s the same issue that gets cussed and discussed at least once a day on this forum (at least it seems that way). Nothing EVER gets resolved. There’s too much division and too much discord within this “community“ (what a joke). People end up getting mad and at odds with each other more than before the discussion started. There are no rules, thus there are no answers.

You get it! Lot's of harrumping and sabre rattling. These are only topics of discussion, debate and a ton of wishful thinking. Seems like everyone knows what needs to be done, but very very few are willing to do anything.

[Babeba]

You get it! Lot's of harrumping and sabre rattling. These are only topics of discussion, debate and a ton of wishful thinking. Seems like everyone knows what needs to be done, but very very few are willing to do anything.

I will tell you one thing I am doing: whenever teams issues come up in conversation with people, I am very vocal about why I think it is perfectly healthy and no big deal. :)

[kellycan27]

I will tell you one thing I am doing: whenever teams issues come up in conversation with people, I am very vocal about why I think it is perfectly healthy and no big deal. :)

That's great! I wasn't trying to offend anyone who truly is making an effort. There are those who do. There just isn't the concerted effort that everyone speaks about being needed to make change. Why would closeted cross dressers want to fight for social change? What difference would it make to those weekend warrior type cross dressers that are already venturing out into the mainstream with enough success and confidence to buck the system? What difference would it make to the occasional cross dresser who is happy being their man self when not engaging in cross dressing? Where is the pay off for them?

[Lorileah]

You get it! Lot's of harrumping and sabre rattling. These are only topics of discussion, debate and a ton of wishful thinking. Seems like everyone knows what needs to be done, but very very few are willing to do anything.

What am I supposed to do? I am not just part of the problem, I am the problem. I don't see a solution either. I, like so many here, now am playing just for me.


That's great! I wasn't trying to offend anyone who truly is making an effort. There are those who do. There just isn't the concerted effort that everyone speaks about being needed to make change.

I know what you are saying. But sometimes when you quit banging your head against that wall it feels so much better. This is like a team of horses except no one wants to be the wheel horse and no one wants the reins to direct them. So, really we are like a bunch of horses who really just want to run wild :)

[Marleena]

You are correct in that society doesn't like to be fooled. gays go with gays, lesbians go with lesbians, bi's go with whomever, and heterosexuals do what they do, but crossdressers are the social spoilers. Are we out to attract males? How can anyone in their right mind want to walk around dressed as a woman and not want something? claiming a "feminine side" is a PERSONAL issue, not necessarily a social issue and it is hard to prove to non-believers that we are just a bit different in our gender makeup. We simply don't fit in. We can go out, do what we do and take our lumps if it comes to that. But acceptance in a real integrated way will never come. The GLB people are "invisible" to society for the most part--out of sight, out of mind--but a guy wearing a dress and a wig is simply one big target.
just my thoughts on this topic.

Good point here. The general public can't tell the difference between a CD/TS/IS or drag queen. They automatically think we're gay too. The only changes will come through educating and helping the LGBT movement do it's thing. Abandoning or rejecting them is a big mistake. I'm in a member of a progressive TG group that does raise TG/TS issues to the government and health care providers. They are well connected and respected in those circles.

Heres somebody to support GLAAD. http://www.glaad.org/issues/transgender

[kellycan27]

What am I supposed to do? I am not just part of the problem, I am the problem. I don't see a solution either. I, like so many here, now am playing just for me.



I know what you are saying. But sometimes when you quit banging your head against that wall it feels so much better. This is like a team of horses except no one wants to be the wheel horse and no one wants the reins to direct them. So, really we are like a bunch of horses who really just want to run wild :)

I agree... it's just you, and everyday when you're out there doing whatever it is you do.. it's just you. I think that all we can do is the best we can do in our own little slice of heaven. These same debates have been going on for as long as I have been a member...... Same debates.. only the debaters have changed. A few people are not going to educate the masses.. Education is not a guarantee of acceptance.

[Jessica86]

One thing I'm seeing too much here is the reference of males trying to pass as females. If you try to pass, you won't. PERIOD. What you need to do, is be yourself. Relax, and you WONT be picked out. I've proven that time and time again. Of all the times I've been out, I've only been outed once....with a positive outcome. We have the same reasons that LGBT has for doing what we do. That's why I, as a hetero dresser, believe the term DOES apply to me. Our motives are driven by the same thing. We were born this way and it's something that we cannot change. The problem we mainly have is that there are tons of famous gay persons, tons of famous bi persons, and almost NO famous crossdressing persons (when compared to the others.) We need more to stand up, that's all. It will come with time.

[Debglam]

I agree... it's just you, and everyday when you're out there doing whatever it is you do.. it's just you. I think that all we can do is the best we can do in our own little slice of heaven.

You are right but there are really two paths of attack here. First, like you suggest, be the best ambassador for the trans community that you can in your own little corner of the world. If someone is curious but maybe says the wrong thing, cut them a little slack. Take the time to educate people if they are interested. This sort of thing won't change the world but it will surely change a heart or two! The LGB community has done wonders with this and there are very few people that can't say they know and like someone who is gay.

The other path is political. This is the one thing, no matter how closeted or private you are, that we all can participate in. Support candidates who support our personal freedom. Write and petition your politicians to pass laws that protect trans rights. This will not out you. Simply argue that it is the fair and right thing to do. And while I say "trans" let there be no doubt that a law that protects a transitioning transsexual equally protects a casual crossdresser!

[kellycan27]

One thing I'm seeing too much here is the reference of males trying to pass as females. If you try to pass, you won't. PERIOD. What you need to do, is be yourself. Relax, and you WONT be picked out. I've proven that time and time again. Of all the times I've been out, I've only been outed once....with a positive outcome. We have the same reasons that LGBT has for doing what we do. That's why I, as a hetero dresser, believe the term DOES apply to me. Our motives are driven by the same thing. We were born this way and it's something that we cannot change. The problem we mainly have is that there are tons of famous gay persons, tons of famous bi persons, and almost NO famous crossdressing persons (when compared to the others.) We need more to stand up, that's all. It will come with time.

No... you will get picked out.. The difference is you won't let it bother you, and you'll discover that most people don't give a rat's hiney about your cross dressing to begin with.

"We need more to stand up, that's all. It will come with time". This is not the issue.. the issue is people who say things like this, yet fail to act. It's just talk.

[Lorileah]

The other path is political. This is the one thing, no matter how closeted or private you are, that we all can participate in. Support candidates who support our personal freedom. Write and petition your politicians to pass laws that protect trans rights. This will not out you. Simply argue that it is the fair and right thing to do. And while I say "trans" let there be no doubt that a law that protects a transitioning transsexual equally protects a casual crossdresser!

This almost made me laugh out loud. How can you expect the (oh let's pick a number here) 90% of Crossdressers who are afraid of their own shadow to support what they don't support themselves? It is so easy for the majority of Crossdressers (and you notice I am saying Crossdressers specifically) to just hide away. And then complain how badly they feel they are treated by the world and especially the GG"s of the world (who as we all know get all the breaks and perks because they can do whatever they want to do and poor CD's cannot but heaven forbid they make a stand for it.). That really leaves the politics to those who are not closeted and who just want to be who they are. Because CD's don't stand the L&G community (really who has even heard of Bisexual rights? They have those rights already) the L&G community don't want to drag us kicking and screaming with them.

Deb, you and I have been here about the same time. You and I have fought the same fight (on the same side) for all that time. Kelly is right, why do we bother when we keep getting slammed by the "Leave me alone, I don't want to fight for MY rights" crowd? (and you know I am behind your sentiment 100%...I wish that as a "community" we could agree on something besides panties just once).

[kellycan27]

You are right but there are really two paths of attack here. First, like you suggest, be the best ambassador for the trans community that you can in your own little corner of the world. If someone is curious but maybe says the wrong thing, cut them a little slack. Take the time to educate people if they are interested. This sort of thing won't change the world but it will surely change a heart or two! The LGB community has done wonders with this and there are very few people that can't say they know and like someone who is gay.

The other path is political. This is the one thing, no matter how closeted or private you are, that we all can participate in. Support candidates who support our personal freedom. Write and petition your politicians to pass laws that protect trans rights. This will not out you. Simply argue that it is the fair and right thing to do. And while I say "trans" let there be no doubt that a law that protects a transitioning transsexual equally protects a casual crossdresser!

Yes.. it's all true. I think everyone gets that. It's practically the jest of 99.9% of these threads. Talking is one thing.. doing is something else.

[Debglam]

This almost made me laugh out loud. How can you expect the (oh let's pick a number here) 90% of Crossdressers who are afraid of their own shadow to support what they don't support themselves? It is so easy for the majority of Crossdressers (and you notice I am saying Crossdressers specifically) to just hide away. And then complain how badly they feel they are treated by the world and especially the GG"s of the world (who as we all know get all the breaks and perks because they can do whatever they want to do and poor CD's cannot but heaven forbid they make a stand for it.). That really leaves the politics to those who are not closeted and who just want to be who they are. Because CD's don't stand the L&G community (really who has even heard of Bisexual rights? They have those rights already) the L&G community don't want to drag us kicking and screaming with them.

Deb, you and I have been here about the same time. You and I have fought the same fight (on the same side) for all that time. Kelly is right, why do we bother when we keep getting slammed by the "Leave me alone, I don't want to fight for MY rights" crowd? (and you know I am behind your sentiment 100%...I wish that as a "community" we could agree on something besides panties just once).

Lorileah. Yes, I know the truth in all that you say and I know that you are certainly one who "gets" it! The reason I cast out stuff like this is because I remember how terrified I was of being found out all my life! Now, I realize how much of that fear was all in my (our) head. I think that if I can convince one person that working together, even if they stay in the closet, is in all of our best interests then it is worth "jousting at windmills."

[Voulez-Vous]

I wish that as a "community" we could agree on something besides panties just once.


That's the whole point. There is no "community". If anyone wants to call this a "community", it's certainly dysfunctional. You'll find very very few willing to, as Bob Marley said "Get Up, Stand Up, Stand up for your rights ..."

[Sophia Claire]

Hmm interesting take Sophia. I took from this post a large degree of self-loathing, it seems you agree with that characterization?

Self-loathing? Quite possible. What jumped out at me was self-doubt, plain as day. But the two are common bedfellows, so I would agree with that. Self-loathing is a lot easier to hide than self-doubt, because it's very specific. Self-loathing has a direct, identifiable object. Compensation for self-loathing is equally specific. Self-loathing loners console themselves in wild parties and prostitutes (as an example). Self-doubt is more vague and so (again, this is just in my experience with unhinged politicians and very public figures, so perhaps not necessarily applicable to normal folks like us) people tend to flail about more and make random and sometimes downright silly gestures to compensate. And (again, my experience is not with normal people) the gesture will frequently attempt to establish some kind of superiority.

[Jennifer W]

Well I've sat here for the last hour or so reading all this. What I get from it is, I'm part of the so called problem. I'm not a "normal" CDer. I wear women's underwear, jeans, t-shirts, tanks, and pajamas and I have a mustache which I refuse to get rid of. I don't have a desire to wear dresses or skirts, bras, forms, wigs, make-up or to "pass" for that matter. I am me and apparently because I am me, I don't fit in here or anywhere. Tough! I am who I am and if you don't like me, oh well! My wife loves me and I love myself. I go out in public dressed as I wish. I'm not sorry as to who I am. If I don't belong here, I'll go away.

[Voulez-Vous]

Well I've sat here for the last hour or so reading all this. What I get from it is, I'm part of the so called problem. I'm not a "normal" CDer. I wear women's underwear, jeans, t-shirts, tanks, and pajamas and I have a mustache which I refuse to get rid of.

I think you've pretty well figured it out for the most part.
However, there is no real problem, and is no real solution.
So there's that...

[AllieSF]

Now, where is a response, followup or whatever from the original poster? Klaire, come back.

[Jennifer W]

I think you've pretty well figured it out for the most part.
However, there is no real problem, and is no real solution.
So there's that...

Agreed! There is no problem and no solution because as stated many times here.... there are no rules!

[Marleena]

Agreed! There is no problem and no solution because as stated many times here.... there are no rules!

So we've accomplished nothing again..:D

[Sarah Doepner]

I am me and apparently because I am me, I don't fit in here or anywhere. Tough! I am who I am and if you don't like me, oh well! My wife loves me and I love myself. I go out in public dressed as I wish. I'm not sorry as to who I am. If I don't belong here, I'll go away.

Jennifer, I don't think you are part of the problem. The problem, from my point of view at least, is the lack of confidence and the doubt and fear that it tends to create. You've overcome that and your attitude (and Kelly's and Lori's and several others) represents the model solution for many of us. But politics and community only set the stage for those who are trying to gain confidence and acceptance. Regardless of how much we do as a "community", we all have to make that step alone and it can be a difficult first step.

[Marleena]

Well I've sat here for the last hour or so reading all this. What I get from it is, I'm part of the so called problem. I'm not a "normal" CDer. I wear women's underwear, jeans, t-shirts, tanks, and pajamas and I have a mustache which I refuse to get rid of. I don't have a desire to wear dresses or skirts, bras, forms, wigs, make-up or to "pass" for that matter. I am me and apparently because I am me, I don't fit in here or anywhere. Tough! I am who I am and if you don't like me, oh well! My wife loves me and I love myself. I go out in public dressed as I wish. I'm not sorry as to who I am. If I don't belong here, I'll go away.

I haven't seen anybody that does not belong here yet.

[Voulez-Vous]

Jennifer, I don't think you are part of the problem.

Trust me, if indeed there was a problem, and there isn't a problem because there isn't a solution, and there isn't a problem or solution because there are no rules...facial hair would definitely be a problem with women's clothes.
But as you can plainly see, there isn't a problem.

[GaleWarning]

Very few of us have the political power or the wide-ranging influence to make a HUGE difference.
But each one of us can make a small difference, by supporting the LGBT within our own small spheres of influence.

Noeleena speaks of having been interviewed by the local media.
Others on this forum have written books; songs; ...
Many members go out dressed according to their own preference.

Others feel more constrained.
The Ministry of Education is not yet ready to employ someone who openly crossdresses.
The Anglican Church down here is not yet ready to accept for any leadership role, anyone who is openly transgendered.

But things are changing ...
Not least because there are people who support students who are bullied for being transgendered.
Not least because there are people who are already leaders in their own church communities, who are transgendered.

There are two types of activist.
There is the RAH RAH activist who feels that the best way to win friends and influence people is to be out there, flaunting it!
And there is the more quiet activist who goes around educating people by the way they care for the ostracised.

I am comfortable with my own level of crossdressing. I am aware of the amount of tolerance with which those around me are able to accept the LGBT community. There is still much to do, but clearly, progress is slowly being made.

The glass is half full!

[Jennifer W]

Jennifer, I don't think you are part of the problem. The problem, from my point of view at least, is the lack of confidence and the doubt and fear that it tends to create. You've overcome that and your attitude (and Kelly's and Lori's and several others) represents the model solution for many of us. But politics and community only set the stage for those who are trying to gain confidence and acceptance. Regardless of how much we do as a "community", we all have to make that step alone and it can be a difficult first step.

Thank you Sarah. I don't think I'm part of any problem either. I understand how taking the first step can be difficult because it was for me. But now, I could care less what others think of what I wear. They are my clothes and I'll wear whatever I want. I went shopping while wearing a lace trimmed black camisole and women's jeans and no one gave me a second look, or if they did I didn't notice. I do what I want as life is too short not to enjoy it!

[Jennifer W]

I haven't seen anybody that does not belong here yet.

Thanks Marleena! I love it here!