Third Gener?

[Inna]

Well, here it goes again, debate on understanding and defining gender.

As I read news from around the world and recognition by few countries of third gender, I can't help but wonder what does it really mean. I really know what those connotations or designations do mean for the people who do not identify within rigid guidelines of gender but then the question goes beyond simple political and social formality.

What I am asking is more of a real, core understanding of gender. As I focus on nature and its variant, I can only see two genders, two necessary ingredients of life. Then perhaps a state where gender becomes flux and gives opportunity for certain species to be one or the other, but is there really a third gender?
I honestly don't think so!!!!

So this third gender definition is rather simply a social designation to describe indescribable, a feeling of being fluid within the vast flux of gender continuum.

What are your thoughts on the THIRD GENDER debate:

[Badtranny]

Oh Inna don't get me started. ;-)

I have a definite opinion on this and I was actually hoping over hoping that my little experiment with being Gender Queer was going to placate me. I am one of those that believe that my transition may have been partially driven by social conditioning. I think that if I could have accepted myself at a young age, I would probably be a very androgynous person today. I am undeniably feminine but I was born into a male body and I really don't think I would have had a problem marrying the two. IF and it's a big IF, I had not spent the entirety of my male life running from the truth and towards a ridiculous facade. I am full time now and I am happier than I could have imagined, but the road is long and I have many miles yet to travel in order to complete a total female transition. I don't regret it, but I'm definitely a believer in the 3rd Gender concept. I was not happy there, but I respect people who have the guts to stand up against mainstream as well as trans conventions and say proudly that they are neither.

[janet54]

Badtranny. This is the best answer I have seen. You are so right on and you make a good stand. Glad you are Happy.

[Frances]

I am all for a third gender. One could argue that there are even more then three. I do not, however, want to have the designation forced on me because I have a transsexual past. The F is where I fit. People that fit in the X category should be able to function with that designation without discrimination and with full equality, but it's not for me.

[Ann Thomas]

I have been feeling for some time I am within a third gender. I'm taking a sociology class this summer in college, and it's something we've explored in class. I think it really became clear to me that there is such a thing when you look at the Muxe in southern Mexico. In their indigenous Zapotec tribe, they have defined it as a third gender socially for years far before they were invaded by the west. They have characteristics found in both male and female genders, and the Zapotec recognized this centuries ago and made it not only acceptable but viewed it as a blessing.

I go to a M2F TS support group now and then, and notice the same things there. People there have gone through SRS, but even so, still have solidly male characteristics that just don't go away. And yet it comes up regularly that someone will say, "When will I ever be considered a woman and not just a TS?" To me it's clear they've left being men, but still have enough about them that make them not fully female. That's even so for the sweet woman who comes now and then, that had her SRS done over 40 years ago.

So honestly, it would be so much better if a third gender were legally defined. And then maybe some practical things could be put into place like which restrooms can be legally used, and so on. And, that makes the whole issue of marriage equality grow that much more complex.

Ann

[Eryn]

Instead of 3rd gender, how about "gender continuum?" There isn't really a single third gender, but there are a lot of us, including those who are considered "normal" who aren't at the extreme ends of the gender continuum.

In some hunter-gatherer cultures there was quite distinct gender roles. The female end of the spectrum took care of the communal aspect of living while the male end took care of the aggressive hunting and defense aspect. These roles were a matter of survival. Occasionally a member of these cultures would align themselves with the gender role that didn't match their birth gender. While this would often result in ostracism, some cultures would accept the the individual into the role they chose with little complaint.

Now, how does this work with our first-world cultures? With the exception of the military, virtually every role in our society has moved toward the communal model we used to associate with feminine behavior. We communicate, collaborate, cooperate, and work together toward the communal goal. Females are actively encouraged to take on all roles in our society, including those in the military. Males no longer have a viable and distinct role in society so it's not surprising that more of us are openly exploring those roles previously forbidden to us.

Now, rather than add a third gender, why not eliminate official gender designations, as has been done with race on many documents? Without gender designations there is no worry about "M" or "F" on one's passport, or a chance that a "3rd gender" notation in one's official records might be used by some future fascist regime to designate those who will go to the ovens.

Eliminating gender designations would also have the pleasant side effect of eliminating the opposition to same-gender marriage, since the government would be out of the business of determining gender.

[Frances]

Eliminating gender designations would also have the pleasant side effect of eliminating the opposition to same-gender marriage, since the government would be out of the business of determining gender.

Legalizing same-sex marriage has the same effect. We did it in Canada, without eliminating gender designations. The only opposition is religion-based.

[busker]

Instead of 3rd gender, how about "gender continuum?" There isn't really a single third gender, but there are a lot of us, including those who are considered "normal" who aren't at the extreme ends of the gender continuum.

In some hunter-gatherer cultures there was quite distinct gender roles. The female end of the spectrum took care of the communal aspect of living while the male end took care of the aggressive hunting and defense aspect. These roles were a matter of survival. Occasionally a member of these cultures would align themselves with the gender role that didn't match their birth gender. While this would often result in ostracism, some cultures would accept the the individual into the role they chose with little complaint.

Now, how does this work with our first-world cultures? With the exception of the military, virtually every role in our society has moved toward the communal model we used to associate with feminine behavior. We communicate, collaborate, cooperate, and work together toward the communal goal. Females are actively encouraged to take on all roles in our society, including those in the military. Males no longer have a viable and distinct role in society [ well,we do still provide sperm for procreation ]so it's not surprising that more of us are openly exploring those roles previously forbidden to us. SUCH AS?

Now, rather than add a third gender, why not eliminate official gender designations, as has been done with race on many documents? Without gender designations there is no worry about "M" or "F" on one's passport, or a chance that a "3rd gender" notation in one's official records might be used by some future fascist regime to designate those who will go to the ovens.

Eliminating gender designations would also have the pleasant side effect of eliminating the opposition to same-gender marriage, since the government would be out of the business of determining gender.

I think biology determines sex and since when has the government determined gender other than using the term in place of sex?. Though gender/sex have usually gone hand in hand (e.g. on applications) Gender is a personal description and most folks would say their gender and sex match.

[Eryn]

Legalizing same-sex marriage has the same effect. We did it in Canada, without eliminating gender designations. The only opposition is religion-based.

Which is simpler, adding another layer of laws to create a 3rd gender and then additional laws to decide which members of the three genders may marry each other, or to simply remove the laws that put the government in the business of collecting and storing gender data?


I think biology determines sex and since when has the government determined gender other than using the term in place of sex?. Though gender/sex have usually gone hand in hand (e.g. on applications) Gender is a personal description and most folks would say their gender and sex match.

In the old days, the system was that doctors (or parents, priests, etc.) reported what was between the baby's legs and the government recorded it, therefore locking in our roles for life. Gender and sex were the same thing.

Some of us have become dissatisfied with those roles and a few of those have gone to the point of causing the government to change some gender/sex designations. Unfortunately, they have only done this in certain places, leaving a patchwork of gender change regulations to navigate and many catch-22s to hang up the process.

Rather than complicating the issue by creating more genders and gender/sex change procedures for thousands of jurisdictions, it would be much simpler to abolish gender designations completely. If the government is not in the gender-designation business it cannot be manipulated by intolerant groups to force their intolerance on us and others. This was done with race designations and the world didn't end!

[Frances]

Which is simpler, adding another layer of laws to create a 3rd gender and then additional laws to decide which members of the three genders may marry each other, or to simply remove the laws that put the government in the business of collecting and storing gender data?

We have not yet created a third gender in Canada, so I would say legalizing marriage between any two consenting adults regardless of gender at the federal level is simpler. If we are talking about marriage.

[Traci Elizabeth]

There are some spices of life that have both sex organs so does that count as a third gender? I can not define it but I sure have seen a few who would fit that label in real life, and a few on here who will go unnamed.

[Pythos]

To the OP. Tell what you just said to my ex, I am quite sure she would have something to say to you. SHE IS a third gender, physically anyhow...menally...nope, quite feminine if with some male traits due to being raised male.

[ReineD]

We only just "see" either end of the gender spectrum. We don't see how people feel internally, people whose characters and personalities are just as heavily influenced by their body chemistry as their brain gender characteristics and preferences.

It's a mistake to believe that everyone either identifies fully as a male or as a female. We might say that most people do, including the Type 6 transsexuals. But, being anyone other than what the world "sees" (male or female) unfortunately is heavily stigmatized. We are all socialized to believe we should be one or the other, and none of us wants to be ostracized. So the pressure is on to CHOOSE. Hence the decision to strive to live stealth or as close to stealth as possible as the target gender for TSs, or to switch back and forth in secret for the non-fetish crossdressers (or TGs, if you prefer this term).

[noeleena]

Hi,

And then theres us lot, who are a mix of both. i dont use 3 rd gender, the truth is of cause i am i dont see or feel or fully understand what its totaly like being male or female. when your born with both where are you. my best way to say it is in no mans land. & i knew that as a young kid aged 10 remember in my understanding at that time.

Today im accepted as a female / woman. yes female at birth. plus the male side of myself as well.

I dont talk about that 3 rd gender as theres no point. just haveing my many friends & members im involved with in our groups & women only as well just accept im another woman who's a part of thier / our groups, as to my maleness they see that facial , yet its just over looked it does not bother them.

Renie.

I never conformed to ether at any time in my life, stealth means nothing to me , i thought i was normal in being different,
I did not know any different, I was brought up as a kid who had a lot of leaway i was not forced in to a male or female role .

My Mom brought me up by.... her self.... & for seven years her folks were with us for 7 years, i dont & cannot think as a male or female theres nothing there, even if i tryed i failed & have failed all my life,

What i mean is i can not think as a male does i dont relate in any way shape or form. as to female not totaly there are details missing, yet there were things going on i understood very well things i knew & had never been told. i do relate to women far better.
I spos the best comment i can make is i feel understand know deep with in what its like to be a female / woman who can not have her own womb to have her own little one & give birth ..... UNLESS .....your female how can you understand what thats like, never.
it's how we are put to gether & wired, i understand what thats like & it cut's me to peaces
gee i wish i could explain it better. i struggle to explain what i cant,

Do i sound contray yes, of cause, spos what im trying to say is i was given insights to being a female as i was growing up as a kid. just some details were more pronouced & aspects for my self at a latter date,

Hey quess what ill never make a writer .....Oh well.......

...noeleena...

[Kate Simmons]

For those who absolutely have the need of a definition, it is an umbrella term of what works best for us. Nothing is written in stone when it comes to gender my friend.:)

[KellyJameson]

Even though I want my body to be female I still think of myself as being a third expression of gender where I do not want to belong to either gender group.

As a whole I enjoy men and women equally but for different reasons and than within those reasons are reasons related to that specific person.

I sense the relationship of masculinity and femininty within each person that they were born with but I relate to the person they have evolved into as they have lived.

But as a group I will never fit into one or the other because I'm repelled by both the masculine and the feminine because each has it's own dark side.

I find myself living outside of humanity in that I have been separated from the evolutionary river that life is usually carried by.

To be a man or woman is to be a part of nature and by circumstance I have been pushed outside of nature so stand outside of much that is taken for granted.

I'm an observer but not a participant but yet I find this to be very satisfying.

For me this is why I identify as a third creation because I cannot be a part of the other two as part of the natural world which I find beautiful to behold but
repugnant to be a part of.

[MC-lite]

In my mind, the whole purpose of transitioning is making my body match my mind. My mind is female. So, for Me, I would choose female.

The truth is, there should be 5 genders:

A ) Male
B ) Female
C ) M2F Transsexual (Male body, female brain)
D ) F2M Transsexual (Female body, male brain)
E ) Intersexed

That would remove most of the ambiguities. I'm sure that somebody would come up with more though, because of the nature of gender.

[Inna]

In my mind, the whole purpose of transitioning is making my body match my mind. My mind is female. So, for Me, I would choose female.

The truth is, there should be 5 genders:

A ) Male
B ) Female
C ) M2F Transsexual (Male body, female brain)
D ) F2M Transsexual (Female body, male brain)
E ) Intersexed

That would remove most of the ambiguities. I'm sure that somebody would come up with more though, because of the nature of gender.

I think you Michaela are on the right track. Those descriptions fit most beautifully into the perspectives of what I hear resonating throughout the forum and in the TG community here in my area.
Fact is that many are fine with being anywhere on the continuum of gender leaving behind their nature assigned body gender designation and therefore being Transsexual or if they prefer Transgender, some were born with the deformity localized only to sexual organs and are therefore Intersexed, and then those left are the ones like I, who from the earliest memories knew of their mind working as females but birth deformity encompassing whole body being of wrong gender, prevented their lives to be whole and real, and only now seek absolute transition into womanhood, with no stops along the way :)

To those who misunderstood my OP, when I stipulated that perhaps there are onlt two nature derived genders, I meant exactly what I said, One of Sperm carrier-MALE, and other of an Egg carrier-FEMALE there are non others I know of.

[Bree-asaurus]

In my mind, the whole purpose of transitioning is making my body match my mind. My mind is female. So, for Me, I would choose female.

The truth is, there should be 5 genders:

A ) Male
B ) Female
C ) M2F Transsexual (Male body, female brain)
D ) F2M Transsexual (Female body, male brain)
E ) Intersexed

That would remove most of the ambiguities. I'm sure that somebody would come up with more though, because of the nature of gender.

I would have to disagree. I personally like the idea that sex is the physical and gender is the mental. Gender SHOULD align with sex, but it doesn't always. Clearly, there is no third sex, because evolution has deemed it a binary reproductive system. Irregularities in sex are due to developmental issues in the womb. Gender, from my experience and understanding, is not binary, but a spectrum from male to female, with PLENTY of in between. I think we should do away with gender designations entirely and leave sex designations purely for medical reasons.

My sex is male. My gender is female, NOT transsexual female. Transsexual is a condition I was born with, not something I identify as.

And the few intersexed people I know do not define their gender as 'intersexed' but as either male or female (and I think I know of one intersexed person on this forum who doesn't identify as either).

[Inna]

I would have to disagree. I personally like the idea that sex is the physical and gender is the mental. Gender SHOULD align with sex, but it doesn't always. Clearly, there is no third sex, because evolution has deemed it a binary reproductive system. Irregularities in sex are due to developmental issues in the womb. Gender, from my experience and understanding, is not binary, but a spectrum from male to female, with PLENTY of in between. I think we should do away with gender designations entirely and leave sex designations purely for medical reasons.

My sex is male. My gender is female, NOT transsexual female. Transsexual is a condition I was born with, not something I identify as.

And the few intersexed people I know do not define their gender as 'intersexed' but as either male or female (and I think I know of one intersexed person on this forum who doesn't identify as either).

Hey Bree, but I think that is exactly what Michaela annotated with the descriptions. As I understand it gender is our own personal interpretation of our own place within societal hierarchy, I am a woman, my thoughts are of a woman, my reactions, my likes, whom I like to be seen as and so on. Within Michaelas definitions such is a personal choice, some as you surely have come across here, like to stay Transgender, and do not attempt by all means, to become as close of a representation of characteristics of natal woman, they are fine with being trans, and that is absolutely fine, and I support their view of the third sex. Said that however, I am a WOMAN! Do I feel like my bones are those of a woman....Heck Yeah!!! Do I feel my skin is that of a woman.....Absolutely!!! Do I think my hair is all Woman.....Precisely so!!! Medical science would disagree, Innas science agrees.

But on the same token, I don't want to be called trans, third, other, I deserve the rightful place amongst women as one of them, and I shall do absolutely everything until my last breath to fulfill my destiny. I don't want inquisitive stares of critical proportion deciphering weather I am a man or a woman and whats with those clothes I'm wearing, I don't want to fill out the applications stating Trans or other, NO I am a woman.

[Bree-asaurus]

But on the same token, I don't want to be called trans, third, other, I deserve the rightful place amongst women as one of them, and I shall do absolutely everything until my last breath to fulfill my destiny. I don't want inquisitive stares of critical proportion deciphering weather I am a man or a woman and whats with those clothes I'm wearing, I don't want to fill out the applications stating Trans or other, NO I am a woman.

I totally agree with you there! :)

[DebbieL]

Hey Bree, but I think that is exactly what Michaela annotated with the descriptions. As I understand it gender is our own personal interpretation of our own place within societal hierarchy, I am a woman, my thoughts are of a woman, my reactions, my likes, whom I like to be seen as and so on. Within Michaelas definitions such is a personal choice, some as you surely have come across here, like to stay Transgender, and do not attempt by all means, to become as close of a representation of characteristics of natal woman, they are fine with being trans, and that is absolutely fine, and I support their view of the third sex. Said that however, I am a WOMAN! Do I feel like my bones are those of a woman....Heck Yeah!!! Do I feel my skin is that of a woman.....Absolutely!!! Do I think my hair is all Woman.....Precisely so!!! Medical science would disagree, Innas science agrees.

I'm a "male" because when I popped out I had a 1/2 inch "bulb". I didn't have testacles, the one male part I did have was too small to be called a penis, and had I been born 20 years later, I would have been declared a "Girl" and had gender reassignment surgery at birth. Unfortunately, because I had that diagnosis, in 1955, I was treated like a boy, even when I regularly behaved like a girl - even as young as 2 years old, mostly played with girls, and usually got hurt when I played with boys. I knew I wanted to be a girl and by the time I was in 1st grade, I played almost exclusively with girls, and thought that if I could stop getting haircuts and grow my hair long, that I could be a girl. When I was 6, I found out that there was another difference, "down there". And when I was swapping clothes with some of the other girls, one of the mothers freaked out and made sure that I was never allowed to play with the girls again, at school, at their homes, or at my home.

I tried to talk to my parents about it, but they had no way to get information and assumed that I was just curious about dressing like a girl. They bought me a pair of tights and dad gave me a "cape" so I could be superman, trying to get me to be a boy. There was only one boy I liked to play with, and I spent most of the time at his house playing with his big sister.


But on the same token, I don't want to be called trans, third, other, I deserve the rightful place amongst women as one of them, and I shall do absolutely everything until my last breath to fulfill my destiny. I don't want inquisitive stares of critical proportion deciphering weather I am a man or a woman and whats with those clothes I'm wearing, I don't want to fill out the applications stating Trans or other, NO I am a woman.

I feel very much like you. If I had unlimited resources, had no fear of consequences, and were willing to give up everything I like about my life, for the possibility of being able to live my life as a woman, living a life of honesty, integrity, authenticity, and being liked and loved for who I really am, I'd do it in a heart-beat.

Unfortunately, I didn't have the resources to transition, my parents, especially my father and my mother's father, would have completely rejected me, I would have been homeless. Even if they had wanted to support me, the best they could have done until I was in my twenties would have been an orchiectomy, and perhaps inversion, but without the ability to enjoy pleasures of a clitoris. I told the woman who became my first wife about my desires. She pretended to accept, but shortly after we were married, she made it clear that she did not accept it, and would not accept it, and that if I wanted to do that, it would COST ME - a great deal. I didn't find out until 12 years later that she had NEVER accepted me. By then, I had two children, who I loved very much, and she told me that if I transitioned, I wouldn't be able to have visitation. She even showed me the therapist's letter addressed to a judge who was a fundamentalist Christian and would have enforced it.

By this time, I was already in my mid-30s, six foot tall, with a deep bass voice. Even with voice coaching I still had a very low voice. I did live all non-working hours as a girl, and could pass pretty well, especially when I didn't overdress, but I realized that I would never be the beautiful young woman I wanted to be. As a size 14, I looked good, but still only average, especially in pants and sweaters. I did have great legs.

I eventually realized that, as long as I was paying child support, I wouldn't be able to afford transition. I joined a leadership training program and they told me I had to "burn the dresses", but I couldn't do it. I tried to do the guy thing, and it took only 6 months to gain 50 lbs, and within a year, I'd added another 50 lbs. by 2001, I soared to 325 lbs, and had a mild heart attack.

When I went back to being Debbie on a regular basis, I lost over 85 lbs, but when my current (2nd Wife) told me she wouldn't support me if I transititioned, I started gaining back again. Today I live on a knife's edge. Letting Debbie get out enough to motivate her to keep me healthy and keep my life organized and keep me productive, but at the same time, I have to deal with the fact that I am getting older and will probably die as a man. There are times when I want to end it immediately, take my chances on reincarnation or that I could have a girl's body in heaven. The thought of spending the next 20 years, or worse, eternity, as a man - is a thought so unbearable that even oblivion would be preferable.

The painful fact is that I'm not unique. The lucky ones, like Bree, who have the courage, tenacity, and resources to experience the pain, expense, and consequences, including loss of family, friends, loved ones, and survive to come out the other side, to become the women they have always wanted to be, are the rare, precious, miraculous breed that inspire the rest of us to believe that there may still be hope. I thank God for all of the transsexuals who have transitioned, who have not left the rest of us to fend for themselves. Who have been able to share their experience, strength, and hope. It might be too late for me at this point, but I know that there are thousands, maybe even millions of boys and girls like us, boys trapped in the bodies of girls, and girls trapped in the bodies of boys, who can see how well they have turned out, and may get the courage and support to transition rather than commit suicide - as so many of our kind are prone to do.

I'm a girl trapped in a boy's body. Transgendered. I try to deal with that horrible reality one day at a time, and try to express my feminine side in the ways that I can. I take it one day at a time, because that is all I can handle most days.

[Inna]

Debbie, even though we are getting away from the theme, I just want to say one thing, and that is in the slogan of a shoe maker quite some time ago; "Just Do It"

Reasons galore, believe me I know, this that and something else, but one thing remains, possibility however remote, that if one truly believes, everything is possible!!!

[ReineD]

To those who misunderstood my OP, when I stipulated that perhaps there are onlt two nature derived genders, I meant exactly what I said, One of Sperm carrier-MALE, and other of an Egg carrier-FEMALE there are non others I know of.

This is true (other than some forms of Intersex that has already been mentioned). But, in your OP you spoke of "gender" which has three components. The sexual characteristics you speak of now is only one of the three components of overall "Gender".

Components of Gender:
(1). Primary & secondary sexual characteristics.
(2). Internal gender ID (brain gender).
(3). Preferred gender role (as established by current culture).

Putting the Intersex aside for a moment, in non-TG/TS people, all three components are in accord, resulting in either male or female. In TSs, (1) is in complete opposition to (2) & (3), hence the need to change (1) either hormonally and/or surgically in order to match (2) & (3), at which point the TS also becomes cohesively male or female save for the ability to perform certain biological functions (just like some birth females who cannot bear children and some birth males who have low or no sperm count).

Among the TGs/CDs, however, there is a wide range as to how much of (2) & (3) are in disaccord with (1). For some it's none of (2) and only part of (3). For others it is part of (2) and part of (3). For others it is part of (2) and all of (3). THESE are the people whose overall "Gender" is not, nor will ever be either male or female with all three components of gender that fully match or are in complete accord. And when I hear "Third Gender", in my mind I picture an infinite number of different combinations of the three components, with each person forming their very own, personalized gender that is neither all male nor female ... which in my view, is just as valid as the people who either are born OR transition to having 100% of all three gender components in complete accord (biological functions aside).

[LeaP]

In my mind, the whole purpose of transitioning is making my body match my mind. My mind is female. So, for Me, I would choose female.

The truth is, there should be 5 genders:

A ) Male
B ) Female
C ) M2F Transsexual (Male body, female brain)
D ) F2M Transsexual (Female body, male brain)
E ) Intersexed

That would remove most of the ambiguities. I'm sure that somebody would come up with more though, because of the nature of gender.

I believe this mixes sex and gender into too simplistic a formula. To me, "transsexual" denotes only a person who wishes to change their physical sex. It is not a gender. In fact, it connotes a binary gender identification. I use the phrase "I'm a transsexual" - but only as shorthand for being male-bodied, female-identified, and with a drive to do something about it. If I were being precise, I would say "I'm transsexual" (describing a certain condition), and "I'm a woman." (In truth, I would would say "girl", but that's another topic.)

I have no problem with the multiplicity of gender identifications that are out there these days: male, female, gender queer, not-male, androgynous, in-between, whatever.

While I acknowledge the possibility that some people are driven to transition purely from psychological factors, the more likely explanation is that transsexuality results from an intersexed condition, e.g., conflicting brain sex, genetic issues, hormonal issues, etc. To me, C, D, and E are the same, but none of the three are genders.

[Inna]

Hey Reine, what you are saying is precisely what the 5 gender model provides except in different wording of the same idea.
The M to F and F to M are really descriptives and in gender terms, redundant, so transgender is the single term and I suppose that can be interchanged for any third gender label.

One clear view of an idea comes to mind though, and I really want everyone's thoughts on this!

As an observer taking what we know of trans condition aside, when I look onto a transitioning individual, what my brain is searching for is one of two Secondary Sexual-Gender_Markers. And I bet you a whole dollar that the rest of non-initiated society does the same. Our brain is wired to recognize only two sexes! to tell you the truth, being a graphic artist/Designer/Painter, my ability to decipher geometry is rather highly tuned, and yet as I am looking at the person who seems between sexes, I am still looking for clues which will bring me to understand WHO realy that person is, an original male or female. Do think about it, YOU DO THE SAME!!!!

[MC-lite]

Here's some interesting reading concerning the 5 gender postulate.

http://genderfork.com/2009/the-bugis-five-genders/

And, we may not be able to defint what gender is, but they (seem to) have defined what it is not. :)
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/gendersexuality/tp/What-Gender-is-Not.htm

Enjoy,
:Miki.

[Rianna Humble]

Type 6 transsexuals

I either didn't know or had forgotten that there were so many "types" of TS, being whichever type I am, is hard enough for me to cope with. Since everything seems to be going backwards for me over the last few weeks, I've probably gone to a Type -97 transsexual and I'm fairly sure that my diabetes is heading for type 200.

Where that leaves the debate about how many genders we shoudl have, I'm not quite sure, but if people can make a good case for something like "unspecified" or "a bit of both" then the only drawback I can see is when someone needs gender-specific treatment and our institutions are generally only set up for two.

[LeaP]

Here's some interesting reading concerning the 5 gender postulate.

http://genderfork.com/2009/the-bugis-five-genders/

And, we may not be able to defint what gender is, but they (seem to) have defined what it is not. :)
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/gendersexuality/tp/What-Gender-is-Not.htm

Enjoy,
:Miki.

Perhaps it makes some sense to conflate sex and gender when one doesn't have the technology or the understanding that we do today. The Bugis' culture takes neither into consideration as it predates them. I see this as an interesting and reasonable adaptation, but that's it. I wonder what a Bugis trans woman would say if offered the opportunity to be regarded as a woman and not a trans woman.

The summation offered in your second link is brief, but good.

[ReineD]

Perhaps it makes some sense to conflate sex and gender when one doesn't have the technology or the understanding that we do today.

Lea, how do you define sex, is it just the physical evidence of primary and secondary sexual characteristics, or do you also consider the sex hormones (T & E) and their effects on a person's fundamental personality?

Internal gender ID is only one component of someone's gender. His or her behavior/personality traits (that I believe are influenced to a degree by hormones) which informs their preferred gender role and presentation, and his or her sexual characteristics all are parts that form the whole for most people, hence the need to fully align mind and body for TSs through HRT and/or SRS, and partially or temporarily align them through presentation for TGs/CDs?

If body (sex) and mind (gender) were unrelated then why would TSs need HRT and/or SRS?

This last question is for everyone. :)

[Bree-asaurus]

If body (sex) and mind (gender) were unrelated then why would TSs need HRT and/or SRS?

This last question is for everyone. :)

:)

I think sex and gender are related, but I also think that nature isn't always perfect and that's why we have abnormalities and inconsistencies between the two.

If we had a genderless society (if we were all 'ze's instead of 'he's and 'she's) I wouldn't care about the pronouns, but I would still have issues with my physical parts.

[ReineD]

I either didn't know or had forgotten that there were so many "types" of TS,

Oh, I was just going by Benjamin's gender scale from the 1960s. I'm not considering the parameters he used to differentiate between types 2 and 5 since we know more now than during the 60s, but the point is there is a spectrum from fully identifying with the birth sex (Type 1) to identifying completely with the sex opposite than birth (Type 6). And there are additional degrees withing each of his defined types as I'm sure there are overlaps between the types.

I don't see it as cast in stone, but neither do I believe that gender is binary.

[LeaP]

Lea, how do you define sex, is it just the physical evidence of primary and secondary sexual characteristics, or do you also consider the sex hormones (T & E) and their effects on a person's fundamental personality?

Internal gender ID is only one component of someone's gender. His or her behavior/personality traits (that I believe are influenced to a degree by hormones) which informs their preferred gender role and presentation, and his or her sexual characteristics all are parts that form the whole for most people, hence the need to fully align mind and body for TSs through HRT and/or SRS, and partially or temporarily align them through presentation for TGs/CDs?

If body (sex) and mind (gender) were unrelated then why would TSs need HRT and/or SRS?

This last question is for everyone. :)

On the sex question, I'm sort of using shorthand (or maybe being lazy). I meant physical sex, and used it to contrast versus psychological gender. Both have complexities of their own. Physically, one can speak of chromosomes, genetics (not the same thing), hormones, gonads, secondary sex characteristics, etc. Each vary in their own right, and all can exist in various combinations.

My shorthand reference was to assume the norm (XY, non-intersexed, male-bodied with average secondary development and normal hormones) - really to take physical sex off the table for purposes of a gender discussion.

I agree with Bree that sex and gender are related, but at the level of an individual, this yields an individual result. Transsexuals want to take action to achieve congruence by definition. Another way of putting it is that for those individuals sex and gender are not only related, but inseparable. They are independent considerations for many other, non-transsexual gender variant people.

[Wildaboutheels]

The fact that over 98% if not far higher [just a guess] of the earth's population is either male OR female says it all. I am strictly talking body parts here.

Any REASONABLE person should also realize that life is not "Nature versus Nurture"? The answer is either "Yes" or "Both".

So, of course there are confused folks who can't/don't think of themselves as either male OR female.

Being either male OR female has "worked" for tens of thousands of years as far as Humans are concerned. Does not mean that EVOLUTION will not continue to try various combinations of male/female in one body. [for those born in the wrong body]

Until NOT being male OR female becomes some type of advantage, people either born or "choosing" something else will remain just a tiny percentage of all Humans.

[Alyla]

I would like to reply to this thread. I will state my opinion. the validity of which is not confirmed nor do I believe it will be in my lifetime. This belief is a leap of faith for me. I have debated this for over fifty years since I first decided I may have not been born right. This is a saying I use frequently to explain to others I know why appear incongruent with the norms of our society. As for the third gender, I don't believe it has arrived yet.

Are their inconsistencies, of course there are. The procreation of our species is infinite in the genetic possibilities of genetic recombinations. Do not take this the wrong way or argumentative in any way, please?
And don't think, I am some authority, I am not. I have been trying to find some consistency in my life experience as it relates to the way I have come to feel about my own gender expression.

Someday I believe, gender will become less important in the humanity of homosapiens. someday perhaps our reproductive processes will change (insert evolve here.) to a situation where two specific genders are no longer necessary. I sincerly believe creation is the ultimate expression of an evolutionary process, and someday we will not recognize ourselves as the milennia marches on. The scientific creative process is a neverending, irreversible,(oops I said 'is' as if it were some type of gospelic statement, I don't mean it this way) process. Maybe we are on a continuum, (popular word here in this forum) that we as individuals will never see the results of. (I know a very male dangling preposition, excuse me.) It is interesting that historically our language and belief systems have not kept up with the empirical world we live. (Read John Shelby Spong) The results of the romantic languages, with gender specific nouns and verbs is one thing that could use some evolutionary refinement, although I understand our need to have an identity of our own, some days I think the pronouns me and you would suffice. I am trying to use my words wisely right now, but in all sincerity I know I shall fail someone, and offer an inadvertent insult to someone, I will say now if I do it was not my intent. I have found this concept of a third gender as a provocative and interesting thread. Now that I have said actually nothing relevant. Perhaps I should leave you with a circuitous random thought. Perhaps we need to leave some bias behind, and hope that we reach a single gender concept, and reproduction of our species become a genetic matter of choice of how one's body functions in our place in time. It is possible to accept and appreciate anybodies expression of themselves iregardless of the phenotypical expression of their gentic reality. There is a book 'In Search of Memory' that details the genetic component of learned behaviors of simpler life forms, and how they can be passed to the next generation.

closing thought

"Sometimes we don't have enough patience to allow the world to catch up, be it in art, science or self expression."

it is what it is, i am what i am, and i can't fix the world

i wish you internal peace hope and love
alyla