The rift

[Inna]

As I was exhausted from my Friday and whole week of first time job interviews since my crush 2 years ago into transition, I still wanted to end this glorious week with friends.
And when one of them had rang me up and pointed to the club were few of them will be gathering, I quickly answered "I BE THERE".

I got to the club and joined in the round table just outside, this table became sort of our usual discussion spot, I suppose we subconsciously gravitate to it, perhaps we should call it "The Nights at the Round Table"

While into chat another friendly soul approached the table, (he is a drag-queen) and in the very high gay voice announced "HELLO MY FABULOUS TRANIES" everyone smiled, replied with hi's, yet I was seriously put off!

He sat down and looked at my grimaced face and said with his hand over his mouth, "Oh I am so SORRY, I didn't mean anything bad"
I knew he didn't, yet I moved on to explain that however some may be fine and even embrace this term, I was simply a woman, a recovering transsexual, a transsexual survivor, just as cancer survivors carry the badge of humble honor!

We sat there a while, he departed shortly after, and chat went on and on, until later in the evening one of my friends turned to me and said "You know, I dont mind such term, and actually I appreciate it because it accentuates my difference and gives me uniqueness".

I have smiled and replied "to each its own" and went on to explain how immensely important was to become a woman I already was, how dreadful were the remarks and even in the best of circumstances, seemingly harmless connotations would bring me down into sorrow and anguish.
Now I have reached the point, which by the way I fought for with all my might, where I am a woman, I am seen as one, I feel as one, I associate, live and breath a woman!!!!!

I feel the rift pulling my continent away from the land I used to roam, a new land I stand on, clear and vivid, wonderful and joyful, and even though I love those souls, the funky, eccentric, group of gals, I cant help but be pulled in the new and different direction of life as a woman doing, what else, but simply woman things!

[Beverley Sims]

Inna, I get an idea of how you feel and I notice the same with a couple of others at the moment. I am only a CD'er and will remain so.
It is those mind altering meds that do it of course, and because of it you know they are working for you.
Your friend probably always addresses others in the same way when you are all in the club so to speak. Try and distance yourself from the remark and take it in the friendly spirit it is intended. There are others than those transitioning who have an understanding of mood swings and mental anguish that you go through and if they are friendly with you now you do not need to alienate them. He did acknowledge his mistake to you. Your other friend and the group would have views poles apart from you and were not taking your present mindset into account.

I can sense your pride at becoming a woman and living and breathing as one.
I do not know where you are in your journey but you need to take a deep breath and remember all your old friends that are with you now can be of immesurable support down the track as you will also make new friends also and change your life.
There was a reply to you in another posting you made that I thought was insensitive as that person is also in transition.
I feel for you and hope to see happier postings from you.
NOW! Take a deep breath.:)

[Stephenie S]

Speak up quickly.

"Well, we're not ALL trannies, thank you very much!", might do the trick. It's important to nip these things in the bud, IMHO.

S

[Inna]

Inna, I get an idea of how you feel and I notice the same with a couple of others at the moment. I am only a CD'er and will remain so.
It is those mind altering meds that do it of course, and because of it you know they are working for you.
Your friend probably always addresses others in the same way when you are all in the club so to speak. Try and distance yourself from the remark and take it in the friendly spirit it is intended. There are others than those transitioning who have an understanding of mood swings and mental anguish that you go through and if they are friendly with you now you do not need to alienate them. He did acknowledge his mistake to you. Your other friend and the group would have views poles apart from you and were not taking your present mindset into account.

I can sense your pride at becoming a woman and living and breathing as one.
I do not know where you are in your journey but you need to take a deep breath and remember all your old friends that are with you now can be of immeasurable support down the track as you will also make new friends also and change your life.
There was a reply to you in another posting you made that I thought was insensitive as that person is also in transition.
I feel for you and hope to see happier postings from you.
NOW! Take a deep breath.:)

LOL, thanks hon, however, this is not an unhappy post, I suppose quite contrary, it is me finding my SELF, and being more certain and assertive each and every day. Those mind altering drugs you refer to are in fact chemical messengers who finally came to the rescue and got rid of the poisonous substance I was exposed to, Testosterone. You see, there are those born a woman yet poisoned by T and can achieve clarity only when finally given proper chemistry, and there are those who were born feminine males, when they receive female chemistry they loose clarity and feel not them selves, quite a difference, proven medically!

But fact remains, that this rift drifts us apart despite my self and efforts to be there for them. I suppose it is disheartening to see your self drift away from your love ones but if such occurs because you finally taped into truth and wholeness, then such will be a blessing as well.

[kellycan27]

I am kind of curious.. Was it the word Trannies" that you found offensive or the fact that you may have been outed to people within ear shot or you Gay voiced friend?

[AllieSF]

Inna, I do understand your goals and need to move on. However, this is where real life gets in your way, especially when you associate with others who may not be affected by use of that term when used in a friendly manner. If you you do not like the term and it seems to be used more than you like when around your friends, by them or by others, than maybe you need to take yourself out of that situation. I can understand that you may not want to do that, so, in that case, as others have said here, maybe just let it pass if it was done in a non-hurtful sort of way. You can try to educate your friends to avoid using that and other terms that displease you, but it is almost impossible to educate everyone else. Good luck and I hope it works out for you.

[Inna]

I am kind of curious.. Was it the word Trannies" that you found offensive or the fact that you may have been outed to people within ear shot or you Gay voiced friend?

I am not sure what you are asking, but I will try my best to answer to the question at hand. I find word "Trannies" offensive as to my own perspective, the word it self is not offensive nor does it have to be to any one identifying such, yet for me, it resonates with dread to those days I contemplated ways to end it all.

And here is another revelation which occurred to me lately, for the longest I was proud to be a transsexual, to be different, someone who despite the society's oppression was able to brake free of the labeling nature and stereotype. But now, honestly and forceful I am so glad to be boxed into womanhood stereotype, I love to hate my lowest lows when estrogen does what it does, I love to hate the bloating, and a bit of muffin top from relentless feminizing, I love to hate inability to tell my self I have enough shoes already and don't need another pair!

I love to be a woman, with all its downfalls, with supposed downgrade in societal hierarchy, which I honesty believe to be not true, because I have way more positive responses now then I ever had before as a male.
But I know one thing, I do not want to be TRANY nor transsexual, whom I once was, and that is fine, but now cured of the dreaded disease, I am ME, a woman I always was but now also for everyone else to see!

[LisaMallon]

I must admit I don't worry about it at those sort of places, since it is such a generic term that everyone uses for every part of the spectrum (especially here in Australia where we shorten words and add 'y' or 'ies' to just about everything).

I'd be a bit more mortified at a shopping centre though.

[Badtranny]

Inna, I know that some would expect me to come out swinging and match your offense with my own, and perhaps I might have just a few months ago. As it stands, I've grown quite fond of you over the last year or so and I believe your "offense" to be genuine. I have also softened my opinion of what I used to call the "easily offended". If there is one thing I have learned about this transition thing, it's that you have no idea about how you're going to feel about any given issue in the next 90 days.

Many of you know that I take no issue with the word "tranny". I don't mind using it or hearing it. I reject the idea that it's pejorative and most of the people that I've argued about this with are either part-time or closeted. Having said that, I am beginning to understand that it may make some people uncomfortable for wholly legitimate reasons. Yours being one of them. Now, I will still rebel against those that want to banish the term and be defeated by prejudice but I can now see that it's possible for the term to be perceived negatively even when used positively.

What I would say to you my friend, is to mind your perspective. I'm increasingly fascinated by how our mindset is totally shaped by our perspective. In my costume thread, I described my despondence over being identified as a dude in a costume, but it was only because my perspective was born of totally passing for a couple of weeks. I should have expected it, but it honestly didn't occur to me that I looked any more masculine than I do at work. Speaking of work, I was at our company golf tournament yesterday and I honestly expected NOT to pass. I've been a bit of a hot topic for the last couple of months and many of the customers and vendors that would be attending have not had a chance to see me yet. I was shocked to find out that there were a lot of people there who hadn't heard and didn't know. I must have met a dozen people who did not put together that I was the tranny that people were talking about. One guy actually asked me if I knew the girl that used to be a guy. I said I did, and she was a gutsy broad. No I didn't tell him it was me. That was fun. Again, my perspective was what made all the difference. My head was in the right place for the environment and I was able to emotionally adapt to several different scenarios.

In your case, you were with a table full of "trannies". The drag queen came out and used the word as a term of endearment, but your perspective didn't match the situation so you were taken aback. When I hang out with CD friends, I fully expect to be considered one of them. I have enough masculine cues that given the context, it seems perfectly reasonable that I would be a guy. However, when my BFF and I spend the day shopping, I don't even get so much as a sideways glance. (believe me I would notice) She's is obviously a GG and I have enough feminine cues that given the context, it seems perfectly reasonable that I would be a girl. It's all about perspective and adjusting your expectations to match. If you really want to rid yourself of the tranny stigma, then you're going to have to find a new group of friends.

I totally understand your desire to move on but I would ask you not to blame the community or the drag queens for forcing you out. The community consists of part-timers all the way to girls like me who are slowly learning to pass stealthily yet don't mind being part of the community. Many T-girls go underground in an attempt to live a more normal (approved by society) life and I would say to those girls that I wish them the very best. My beef is with the girls who want the protection and camaraderie of our community but complain about us at every opportunity. Goodness, if you find us loud and proud girls so offensive, than by all means remove yourself from our association. In your case, I think it's just a matter of your own personal growth towards your own personal light. There is no shame in living an authentic life, even if it means leaving some friends behind. As transsexual women, our lives are in a constant state of beginning again.

[Alyla]

Bad Tranny,

I think this should be inhaled by all.

Well Said!

Alyla

[Kaz]

Hi Inna,

Agree with Melissa completely, but would add a thought... if you are no longer a 'tranny', it is still OK to hang out with them? It's just that the remark is not aimed at you. You are a girl hanging out with trannies. That's how I would see it, and as a 'guy' I would leap in and protect your interests!

Think 'girl' not CD. You are a girl who has CD friends... what's wrong with that? It's all in your head from now on... :) xx

[Persephone]

Oh, do I hate it when words suddenly turn into knives and cut right into us!

As Melissa described, it hurts the worst after days or weeks of bliss, when the doors have been held and you have been fitting in. Then bang! You get blindsided by a knife in the ribs.

I've never been one to make nor to give up friends easily. But in this case you have to examine what brings y'all together. Is there the true bond of friendship? Or do y'all just get together because of what were common situations.

No woman is an island; we seem to have need of friends. So please do not leave yourself alone. Make sure that where you are comfortable on the journey that you have real friends.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[pamela_a]

It's guilt by association. Not long ago I went out to dinner with 2 friends who, although both are TS, are also obviously "men in dresses". During the meal someone came up and said to everyone at our table "it's great to see you people out in public" and wanted to take our picture. Personally I was very offended by that, not only for myself but also for my friends. She meant no harm.. but it was hurtful, to me at least.

As for the word "tranny"; personally I find that word as offensive and derisive as *******. In the OP's situation, were the roles reversed, how would the DQ have felt/responded to someone coming up to his table spouting.."hi Queenies..... or Hi Fa***ts.... What would have been the difference?

To Melissa's point, she's right on. If you're a woman and don't want to be reminded/relegated to being TS then your option is to just associate with women. That, IMHO, is why those who transition and successfully make that final step to being "just another woman" leave being all of this behind them.

Being TS is not a permanent "condition" unless you want it to be.

[Melody Moore]

I totally understand how Inna feels. 2 years ago I use to MC a drag show, but then I realised it was not the
right place for this particular trans woman to be. While I will say hello and talk to a drag queen I refuse to hang
out with them because I don't want other people making that type of association about me. So excuse me while
I sit with the genetic girls because I have absolutely nothing in common with gay men in drag. Don't like it? Tough!

Because the bottom line is I do personally find the term 'tranny' to be very offensive because it is no different to 'she-male'
which was been coined & used by the adult movie industry. So why is there such a huge problem here with respecting how
we feel eh? The trans community has to stop using it because not everyone thinks it is OK because people ARE offended!!!

If words like this are acceptable, then so to are other homophobic slurs such as "faggot, poofter, poo-jabber etc."
So please stop it now because while you might think it is OK to use the word, others are deeply offended by it! :Angry3:

[Beverley Sims]

YES Lisa I met some like people in Chapel St Prahran the other day.
They said they were trannies just like the old transistor radios.
Apparently Australian slang.
To Melissa,
yes we do have to accept that what others are thinking is not necessarily degratory and they are expressing themselves in the only way they know how.

[Badtranny]

Because the bottom line is I do personally find the term 'tranny' to be very offensive because it is no different to 'she-male'
which was been coined & used by the adult movie industry. So why is there such a huge problem here with respecting how
we feel eh? The trans community has to stop using it because not everyone thinks it is OK because people ARE offended!!!

If words like this are acceptable, then so to are other homophobic slurs such as "faggot, poofter, poo-jabber etc."
So please stop it now because while you might think it is OK to use the word, others are deeply offended by it! :Angry3:


Sorry Melody, people like me exist and there is not a whole lot that can be done about it. Find solace in the fact that I go to work everyday and further the acceptance of trans people in a very conservative and very sexist industry. (construction)
I realize that I'm often at odds with the 'community', but I think that says more about the 'community' than it does me. At the end of the day I'm just an average transsexual who goes through my life showing people that I'm just like them.

I sometimes wonder why certain folks in the 'community' find me more offensive than the average person does.

[Melody Moore]

Sorry Melissa, I am never going to buy it regardless of how it's implied because someone
else might hear someone saying it in fun or whatever and think it's OK to just go around
calling all of us 'trannies' and also implying it in derogatory ways which is most often the case.

It must stop period because as I said it is no different to using words like "nigger, faggot, poofter, poo
jabber etc and regardless of what you or anyone else thinks, there are obviously people who are offended.

So use some simple common courtesy and RESPECT for other people please!!!!!!!

[ReneeT]

It only took 17 replies for this thread to degenerate to bitchiness! Come on now! No wonder people are leaving here in droves! Dammit, we ask the world to respect our differences in opinion - can't we show that to each other??????

[Inna]

As I made the strive to finally get out of the protection of my 2 year cave, I have made conversations with slew of managers at places I have applied to.
Most interesting was the first one, a huge retailer known throughout the us and running outlet type clothing retail operation.
I filled out the application and since I have shopped there few times for my fashionista couture I was recognized by the clerks there, this recognition factor seems to become quite an obvious occurence lately, LOL!

As I had been called back for an interview, I approached the manager and greeted him with hello, "well hi, I have seen you here shop!" he replied with a smile on his face. I followed him into the office.
We have chatted about my past experience totally overqualifying me for the job at hand but me making sure that he understood that all that is past, and both of us here connecting is the present. He seemed to glimpse over my body every so often, and I could see in his eye a spark of connectivness in the, hm how should I put this, attraction department.
I liked our connection and we trully hit it off, and laughed, and joked about issues in retail I was so famniliar with, after all being former district manager and then the CEO of a company for 18 years did leave some experience.

Then came the moment at which what we are dioscussing in this thread came to light, he said OK wonderful, I am looking forward to going to the next stage. "I will send you email and please follow the link for background check, now is all the information on the application current?" he said.

"Well, I am in the midst of name change and even though it is in the court process as we speak it isnt finalized" I hesitantly spoke, "OK, what is the legal name now, as I will need it for the background check?" he answered.

I looked at him, laughed, and as I have explained to him during interview, my life altering and rebirth experience without transsexual connotation, I picked up the application and wrote down my first name.

He looked back at the app. and I could see his mind going million miles an hour, his eyes lost focus, and his face became gray and transparent. He fought to keep a smile, but by now thia genuine smile turned to plastic, and sentences trembled out of his mouth.

YES, such is the reality of a single word, how imense the power within single connotation, how world altering, poisening, crushing. A single idea of a person sitting in front of you, whom you perhaps fancied and respected suddenly within split of a second vanishes into fog of perception.

I dont know the outcome of all this, and perhaps, I will be contacted back, I give this person my respect as he was trully warm and very pleasant to talk to and the connection I felt was more then mere interview, but perhaps I will never hear from him again, and I will take that reality which would not have had any bearing on my life had I changed my name before this interview.


I am A WOMAN, I will fight to the last drop of my essence for this, the most precious of labels.

[Melody Moore]

I am A WOMAN, I will fight to the last drop of my essence for this, the most precious of labels.

Some people just don't get it and think nothing of using terms like this, but I spent my entire life
running away from who I was because of stupid derogatory & humiliating labels like this because
I felt ashamed and guilty because of how I heard these terms mostly applied. And damned if I am
going to let someone ever call me a 'tranny' and think they get away with it? they've got it coming.
Just like the farmer who I heard telling his son that some tranny they knew should be shot because
they are riddled with VD and could never be trusted around kids.
I am a human and a woman, and demand to be respected as one & we all deserve that at the very least. :hugs:

[LisaMallon]

Well said Renee. This sort of nit picking over words tends to be pretty pointless. If for no other reason than context is all.

If someone came up to me in a shopping centre and said 'how's it going Tranny' then I'd be a bit miffed.

But in an alternative bar, where there are TG, CD, DQ, GG .. et al .. who cares.
I mean you have to be fair to the other person, in that context how do they know what you are?
See a table of people of all types, what are they expected to do? Check out each person individually, then address them by their correct type? I mean a bit silly.

In this situation if everyone is so sensitive then no one can call anyone anything. Imagine if they (in the example given) had said "hi girls" and a CD there had took umbrage at being called a girl?
Can quickly disappear into the black hole of political correctness and hyper sensitivity.

If a person is really that sensitive, then wear a badge saying "call me this or else".

[Inna]

Perhaps I have made a mistake by placing this here thread in the open forum, however I totally get the points of view from slew of participants, I can totally decipher masculine perception from that of feminine understanding.
I take the burden of mistake on my shoulders, and by no means mean to put or exclude anyone participating here in the discussion, but believe me, NO GIRL wants to be called otherwise unless circumstances still prevail outside of her control.
I think given the choice simply every transgender folk weather CD, TS or anyone in between would take GIRL over a TRANNY or am I so disillusioned as to be totally wrong about it.
We take lot of verbal and emotional abuse, after a while, we have no choice but to accept in order to simply survive, but once on the other side, and I am sorry but no CD will understand that frame of mind, I am strong within my own, womanhood which I had to earn with every bit of my strength, this wasn't playful dressup, nor fun ride enjoyment, but burdensome life or death experience, I have earned my pink, I am a woman, and no one shall have power to take this away from me!

[Beth-Lock]

(I liked to think).. I was simply a woman, a recovering transsexual, a transsexual survivor, just as cancer survivors carry the badge of humble honor!

....I have smiled and replied "to each its own" and went on to explain how immensely important (it) was to become a woman I already was, how dreadful were the remarks and even in the best of circumstances, seemingly harmless connotations would bring me down into sorrow and anguish.

Now I have reached the point, which by the way I fought for with all my might, where I am a woman, I am seen as one, I feel as one, I associate, live and breath a woman!!!!!

I feel the rift pulling my continent away from the land I used to roam, a new land I stand on, clear and vivid, wonderful and joyful, and even though I love those souls, the funky, eccentric, group of gals, I cant help but be pulled in the new and different direction of life as a woman doing, what else, but simply woman things!

A quiet vote for Inna's view. In my case, sometimes I feel like 'simply-a-woman,' and others, a transsexual willing to reveal my recent GCS surgery, (at least with those who already know I am trans). I guess dealing with the two opposing self-concepts of what we are, and getting others to be cool with our situation, is one of the final challenging steps in our transition, after GCS.

[max]

this wasn't playful dressup, nor fun ride enjoyment

Erm what? Did you intend to trivialize a huge segment's struggles?

[Beverley Sims]

Inna, you have done the right thing in starting this post, just because the discussion has degenerated a little it does not mean it is not worthwile.
Lisa and Melissa both show tolerance to dissenting views and what they say is valid.
Me I am into flexibility as posted elsewhere in the cross dressers forum and has absolutely nothing to do what is going on here.
So deep breath and go out and face the rest of the world, you have an interesting journey to finish.:)

[Inna]

Erm what? Did you intend to trivialize a huge segment's struggles?

"We take lot of verbal and emotional abuse, after a while, we have no choice but to accept in order to simply survive, but once on the other side, and I am sorry but no CD will understand that frame of mind"

:)

[Melody Moore]

It only took 17 replies for this thread to degenerate to bitchiness!
There is no bitchiness here only passionate replies where some of us are not afraid to say how we truly feel.

People can try and downplay this all they like, but there are those of us who are offended by
such terms and what is the big deal with having our points of view appreciated and respected?


If a person is really that sensitive, then wear a badge saying "call me this or else".
Do you go around calling others 'niggers, poofters, faggots, poo-jabbers' etc? I bet you don't.
So what is wrong with doing the right thing and being mindful about not offending other WOMEN?

[kellycan27]

Inna Perhaps once you and a few others get comfortable with actually being that "woman".. these little innocuous comments from a "friend" won't send you into a tizzy? It wasn't a slur, or a slam, and there was no malice aforethought. Why climb up on your soapbox over a comment that came and went, had no ill effect (except for your ego) and means absolutely nothing in the scheme of things? Seems like you were the only one in the group that was offended. transsexuals might be bothered by these things, but why would a woman, and you do call yourself a woman don't you?

[Debglam]

Funny coincidence Inna, because this was a topic of conversation when I was out with some friends last night. Here are my 2 cents for what they are worth

Gender is but one part of who we are. There are trans women, black women, white women, Greek women, Chinese women, rich women, poor women, etc., etc. I don't think being trans makes you any less of a woman. It is just another part of who you are, just like the other aspects that are a part of you.

Now if someone wants to transition and totally abandon that part of themselves, that is their business. I do think Melissa is right and a person can't have it both ways though. If a trans woman wants to cut the rope then they can't come back and complain about the community that they abandoned. (Note no judgement here - this is someone's personal decision and I happen to know a woman who did this for some very valid reasons. She transitioned 30+ years ago and I doubt anyone has any idea that she was trans now.)

Now let me get a little controversial here. IMHO, the most successful trans women are the women that have transitioned and embrace the fact that they are/were trans. Let me make clear that this is strictly my opinion based on my own personal observations. Judges Frye and Kolakowski, Professors Boylan and Ladin, Authors and activists Stryker, Serano, and on and on and on. Now there may be trans women who have gone stealth and are tops in their fields but I don't know of any. (Duh, maybe that is the point!) I guess what I am getting at is that taking ownership of all aspects of who you are just seems a lot more positive and productive.

However you decide to proceed, I'm hoping that your path is smooth!

Debby

[Kristy_K]

For whatever it is worth when I transitioned I considered myself a transsexual but now I hate being referred to in that way. I consider myself a woman more everyday of my life.

After all it is a birth defect that I am dealing with.

[Beverley Sims]

Kelly, a good question in post #5.
Melody, I had an interesting conversation about niggers on an Amtrak train on the way to Chicago once.
Passed the time away.:)
I am what American Indians would call paleface, and the other seven in the group were what you would call African Americans.
There were no fights or heated discussions but we all came away enlightened with varying views.
A bit like you and Lisa, opposing views. A Queenslander and a Victorian.
Probably a good thing I did not call either of you a New South Welshperson Someone that resides in New South Wales. Near Sidney Australia.

[Inna]

Inna Perhaps once you and a few others get comfortable with actually being that "woman".. these little innocuous comments from a "friend" won't send you into a tizzy? It wasn't a slur, or a slam, and there was no malice aforethought. Why climb up on your soapbox over a comment that came and went, had no ill effect (except for your ego) and means absolutely nothing in the scheme of things? Seems like you were the only one in the group that was offended. transsexuals might be bothered by these things, but why would a woman, and you do call yourself a woman don't you?

"He sat down and looked at my grimaced face and said with his hand over his mouth, "Oh I am so SORRY, I didn't mean anything bad"
I knew he didn't, yet I moved on to explain that however some may be fine and even embrace this term, I was simply a woman, a recovering transsexual, a transsexual survivor, just as cancer survivors carry the badge of humble honor!"

"I have smiled and replied "to each its own" and went on to explain how immensely important was to become a woman I already was, how dreadful were the remarks and even in the best of circumstances, seemingly harmless connotations would bring me down into sorrow and anguish.
Now I have reached the point, which by the way I fought for with all my might, where I am a woman, I am seen as one, I feel as one, I associate, live and breath a woman!!!!!"

I honestly think I have handled it like a woman I am!

[Melody Moore]

A bit like you and Lisa, opposing views. A Queenslander and a Victorian.

WTF, that is the biggest pile of crap I have ever read. One thing is obvious, I have seen myself always as a transsexual
WOMAN and never identified as a crossdresser, drag queen or 'tranny' for that matter. So better luck on sticking your
disgusting "nigger' or 'tranny' labels on someone else. I have never come across so many rude people than I have in the
so-called 'transgendered' community. Thank God when my SRS is over in October and I disappear, then I will never have
to be thrown in the same basket and tarred with the same brush as some of the other ignorant people here. How rude?

[LisaMallon]

Debbie, thanks for that, crystallises some thoughts I have been having. Now when I transition fully, who am I going to be? Who am I going to associate with?

Obviously there are going to many new people in my life. But there are so many in the TG world that I really like (just like some from my past male life).
Am I going to abandon them? Nope. Of course not. You will still see me at times down DT's (famous TG pub in Melbourne), still yabbering away to various TG (of all types) people.

I am going to be woman, but yes a Trans woman. If nothing else I can help someone else along the way, who was like me at an earlier time, naturally I will.

Now, as I have repeatedly said, context is everything. At a supermarket I just (one day) expect to be 'just' another woman. But at a TG environment I'm quite happy to be known as one of the 'girls' who transitioned.

I like all the TG spectrum. I like drag queens, I like CD's, I like androgenous people. They bring colour and light.

I also recognise the debt I owe them and their predecessors.
If it wasn't for all those TG/TS/etc people who have fought and continue to fight for our rights we would still all being locked up, harrased and denied treatment.
So I will have to give something back to the community. I that means I get publically recognised as a 'trans' woman so be it.

I have a really good friend, who transitioned 25 years ago and she ran for the State Senate and made it public she was a TS. She always has been a great campaigner for TS people.
I hope I have a tenth of her courage.

I know another girl, who is a tireless campaigner for TG/TS rights. And she has only part transitioned. Some, idiots, have the temerity to criticise her .. 'because she is not a full TS'.
Yeh right, my answer is 'are you stupid'. Plus a bit of thanks to her would be nice.

As for those who go 'stealth', I can understand it to a point, but you wouldn't be where you are but for all those who have put the work in.
At least (at the very least) give some money to those who have fought for you to get where you are .. just saying ... bit of gratitude would be appreciated.

And no one should ever, ever slag off CDs, DQs, TGs and all the rest, we are all the same .. just different degrees.

[Beverley Sims]

I think the humidity of Cairns has got to you Melody.:)
I better watch out for you I will be there in a few days.

In closing.
I do understand that you are probably going through a hard time and are a nice woman but it is better to leave inflammatory remarks out of a conversation where people are trying to broaden their knowledge. I know you have rigid views but this does not necessarily stimulate constructive discussion.

[Inna]

Again and again I find my self explaining the original post. Nowhere in the OP did I mention my dislike to CDs TSs or in fact anyone even the DragQueen, I simply wrote about the space growing between my self and understanding of where I am heading and the rest of folks from our group, whom I love dearly, hence the rift, a feeling of discomfort disconnecting me from them!
I am bringing this rather painful subject to light in the spirit of full and absolute disclosure, sharing with you my deepest emotions, and yes, I love them that is why it is so hard to let go.

But when I set out on this remarkable voyage, I wanted one thing, to be a woman, not tranny, not cd, not ts, not tg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just ask your selves the question: Are you a trans because you want to, or are you trans because you have to......now, really think about this, really!!!!!

[Melody Moore]

Amen Inna!!!!!!!!!!

NEVER did I complain about any CD, TG or drag queen in this thread, but that is how my comments have been interpreted.

It is obvious to me some members of this group do have issues with those of us that seek total congruency WHY???

Why can't those of us who identify as women, simply be respected as a woman? Is our request unfair & too much to ask?

And just like Inna I wanted one thing, JUST to be a WOMAN! not tranny, not CD, not TG or even a TS for
that matter. I am just another woman with a transsexual history and this is what some of you don't get.

And Beverley if you are going to be in Cairns, don't be shy and hide, come and say "hello" ;)

[kellycan27]

If it wasn't for all those TG/TS/etc people who have fought and continue to fight for our rights we would still all being locked up, harrased and denied treatment.
So I will have to give something back to the community. I that means I get publically recognised as a 'trans' woman so be it.
As for those who go 'stealth', I can understand it to a point, but you wouldn't be where you are but for all those who have put the work in.
At least (at the very least) give some money to those who have fought for you to get where you are .. just saying ... bit of gratitude would be appreciated..

I don't think that you do understand TBPO. Do you suppose that we who at some point decide to "go stealth" just wave our magic wands and poof! We're there? We started out out just like everyone else. We lived in the community, and through our own actions ( if you will) we acted as ambassadors to the "so called" TS community. We struggled just like everyone else to gain acceptance, find jobs, find housing etc, all the while under the eyes and scrutiny of the GP. We also helped pave the way for those who came behind us. WE PAID OUR DUES, and some of us feel that we have done just as much for you as you feel the this community has done for us. Where is the break even point? How long must we keep paying.. for you and others?
At least (at the very least) wait until you have done what we have before you opine on how we should act, or what our obligations should be to the community or to you. Maybe instead of insinuating that we are abandoning you by going stealth.. you yourself should show a bit of gratitude for the contribution that we have already made .. which according to you... you will benefit from. Walk a mile in our shoes before you second guess us and our motives. it's easy to say what one is going to do "if and when", but it's quite different when it "is".

Kel

[ReineD]

There was a video posted awhile back in the Media section about transsexuality throughout our planet. It was a one hour television program, on youtube in about 6 sections and it touched on many different aspects.

One of the segments was an interview with 4 or 5 transsexuals in Thailand. They worked in the entertainment industry and they were all breathtakingly beautiful, in my opinion. Anyway, the interviewer asked them, one by one, about their lives, their relationships, and what surgeries did they have. They answered in Thai, but the English translation was dubbed over their words. They each looked like GGs to me, yet they each had such different stories! Some had had full SRS, while others were not interested in this. Some had had breast enhancement surgery but not others. They each had had FFS. Some were attracted to men and others were attracted to women, some to both.

What floored me was the unconditional acceptance among themselves, about who they are and their personal preferences. They all worked together and they did not give me the impression that they stratified themselves into who was "more" female than the other. They all looked, sounded, and dressed as females. I guess they recognized that transsexuality is varied, and they all accepted this without judgment, much like tea lovers will accept that one prefers Oolong while another prefers Darjeeling. They didn't seem to be interested in pigeon-holing themselves into who was a true woman vs. transgender vs. someone who was beginning or ending their paths vs. someone who had decided to become a showgirl in order to make a living. It just didn't matter.

I don't know why I'm writing this, other than to say that their unconditional acceptance combined with the lack of a need to define and classify struck me as being a wonderful thing. But, maybe this is easier to do in Thailand where there is a wider acceptance of transsexuality and perhaps less a need to be stealth?

It would be nice if we could reach this level of understanding here in the West, at least among people who are not cisgender. :)

[ColleenA]

I guess they recognized that transsexuality is varied, and they all accepted this without judgment, much like tea lovers will accept that one prefers Oolong while another prefers Darjeeling. They didn't seem to be interested in pigeon-holing themselves into who was a true woman vs. transgender vs. someone who was beginning or ending their paths vs. someone who had decided to become a showgirl in order to make a living. It just didn't matter.


Reine, your post reminded me of a sign I once saw in a health-food style restaurant (Hobee's in Silicon Valley, south of San Francisco - excellent food - can't recommend it highly enough). It essentially said, We, the owners, are vegetarians, and while we encourage others to be so also, we know not everyone is at the same point along this path. For that reason, we offer selections with chicken, turkey or ham.

I too would prefer to see fewer labels, criticisms and catty comments that smack of "who's more trans/womanly" one-upmanship (a word that I am not going to attempt to de-genderize). Unfortunately, human nature rears its head.

[ReineD]

I too would prefer to see fewer labels, criticisms and catty comments that smack of "who's more trans/womanly" one-upmanship (a word that I am not going to attempt to de-genderize). Unfortunately, human nature rears its head.

It's a question of living in societies that do not understand and condemn non-binary gender and transsexuality. No one wants to be ostracized for being themselves and they will fight to the death to prevent this from happening. I don't blame them, it's a question of survival. In our somewhat sexually oppressed society, people consider men who wish to present in a feminine manner as being gay, perverted, or both, and I don't blame TSs for wanting to distance themselves from this. There would be no need for any division or distancing if everyone was allowed to express gender fluidity and if it were not judged. Also, I think that if there was no stigma attached to any manner of gender expression, fewer CDers would sexualize the CDing and there would be even less condemnation all around ... but this is just my opinion. :p

[kellycan27]

It's a question of living in societies that do not understand and condemn non-binary gender and transsexuality. No one wants to be ostracized for being themselves and they will fight to the death to prevent this from happening. I don't blame them, it's a question of survival. In our somewhat sexually oppressed society, people consider men who wish to present in a feminine manner as being gay, perverted, or both, and I don't blame TSs for wanting to distance themselves from this. There would be no need for any division or distancing if everyone was allowed to express gender fluidity and if it were not judged. Also, I think that if there was no stigma attached to any manner of gender expression, fewer CDers would sexualize the CDing and there would be even less condemnation all around ... but this is just my opinion. :p

Agreed.. and might I add that for some who have been able to slip through the ropes, the desire has nothing to do with transsexual issues.. They get past those, and the distancing is more by circumstance than design. It's more a matter of their desire to live their lives as they see fit.

[Badtranny]

It would be nice if we could reach this level of understanding here in the West, at least among people who are not cisgender. :)

Yes it would but I think our culture breeds too much competitiveness. Someone else always has to be "more" than someone else. It's not enough to be the best you can be, you have to be something better than "them".

In the Trans community that means SRS, or passing, or whatever your neighborhood deems the "most Trans" that year. I try not to play that game personally. I'm okay with who I am and I'm okay that others are not okay with me.

I'm a bad tranny for a reason. ;-)

[Alyla]

Reine,

and I like your opinion, and sometimes wonder if misogony is at the root, of this fear.

Alyla

[pamela_a]

Yes it would but I think our culture breeds too much competitiveness. Someone else always has to be "more" than someone else. It's not enough to be the best you can be, you have to be something better than "them".

In the Trans community that means SRS, or passing, or whatever your neighborhood deems the "most Trans" that year. I try not to play that game personally. I'm okay with who I am and I'm okay that others are not okay with me.

I'm a bad tranny for a reason. ;-)

All I ever wanted was to be me and I have attained that goal. I'm not in competition with anyone else because I'm just another woman. I stay here with the hope of being able to help someone on their journey yet all I see is those who have completed their journey either not willing to give up the security of the trans label (IMHO giving them something to hide behind) or being criticized for just being who they are...just a woman.

[kellycan27]

Yes it would but I think our culture breeds too much competitiveness. Someone else always has to be "more" than someone else. It's not enough to be the best you can be, you have to be something better than "them".

In the Trans community that means SRS, or passing, or whatever your neighborhood deems the "most Trans" that year. I try not to play that game personally. I'm okay with who I am and I'm okay that others are not okay with me.

I'm a bad tranny for a reason. ;-)

And some we might have to attribute to ourselves with all praising we give in an effort to be "supportive" or our true feelings. Heads begin to swell. :heehee:

[Badtranny]

All I ever wanted was to be me and I have attained that goal. I'm not in competition with anyone else because I'm just another woman. I stay here with the hope of being able to help someone on their journey yet all I see is those who have completed their journey either not willing to give up the security of the trans label (IMHO giving them something to hide behind) or being criticized for just being who they are...just a woman.

Who is criticizing those who want to be women? You have never heard me criticize, Inna or Kelly or hell, even Kate for not wanting to be identified as trans. I think that's great. If you don't want to be associated with the community than by all means, leave the community. Just because I don't mind identifying as TS (I don't really have a choice anyway) doesn't mean that I expect everyone to be loud and proud. I think the girls that can go stealth and leave the Trans label behind are fortunate and enviable. That's great and I don't think anyone would ever seriously begrudge them that opportunity.

If Inna decides she doesn't want to hang out with "trannies" anymore than I wish her nothing but the best. She deserves it, shoot we all deserve it, but it's just not a reality for some of us. I would never say that someone doesn't have the right to pursue happiness as they see it.

My whole badtranny schtick is about living YOUR life and to hell with anyone's opinion about it. The way I live my life shouldn't matter to others, but for some reason my very existence seems to make certain other TS women uncomfortable. Why is that? Is it because I scoff at the "rules". Is it because I'm proud to be who I am? Is it because I don't revere the mighty Post-Op?

I don't draw lines among TS people, I dislike all different types of them. ;-)

[ReineD]

Yes it would but I think our culture breeds too much competitiveness. Someone else always has to be "more" than someone else. It's not enough to be the best you can be, you have to be something better than "them".


Very true!

We put more stock in individual rights while Easterners place more importance on cultural harmony. Our way of life promotes individuality and the creativity that sprouts from swimming upstream, while they strive to minimize conflict and go with the flow. :)

Alyla, I don't think that homo/transphobia is rooted in misogyny. I think it's deeper than that especially today when women have reached parity with men (and vice-versa) in many of the gender roles, at least in the Western culture. I don't know if it's something that resides in our brain stems and we're protecting our basic drive for the survival of the species (transsexuals cannot reproduce as their target gender nor can homosexuals who don't have sex with women), or if we are wired to fear those who don't follow the norms. And like it or not, the majority of people are cisgender.

I do believe that if a much larger segment of our population were trans, it wouldn't be stigmatized.

[pamela_a]

The mighty stealth post op.....how much more of a pejorative description could there be?

Obviously those who have completed their journey really don't need to stay around here since I guess we only stay to brag about how great we are. I never knew. Thank you for enlightening me

[Badtranny]

The mighty stealth post op.....how much more of a pejorative description could there be?

Obviously those who have completed their journey really don't need to stay around here since I guess we only stay to brag about how great we are. I never knew. Thank you for enlightening me

Oh please. You clearly just want to argue.

I don't have a problem with you. I don't have a problem with any post-op. I think it's wonderful that you've found your bliss. I just don't think it's worthy of admiration or adoration in and of itself, that's all. It's a milestone for YOU and YOU have achieved it. Congratulations and enjoy the rest of your life. Not every TS has the same goals. Not every TS is offended by every other word they hear. Not every TS is in some kind of weird competition with you. Some will naturally envy you, but I do not. Why is that wrong?

[LisaMallon]

Kelly, et al, if someone want to go stealth, fine. But give something back to all those who tirelessly campaign to create and maintain our rights.

Like, being able to change your name. To have your paperwork changed to female. To get your birth certificate changed. To get a female passport.
To have TS services funded. To get anti-discrimination laws, so you can still work and so on.
To get rid of laws than ban you form being a woman.

And so and so on.

Plus all these are under constant attack. There are many religious and right wing groups that want (and lobby hard) to change all these all things back again to the 1950s.

So some people fought very hard to get what we have got in many places. And keep fighting against every effort to turn them back.

Take you for example. 20 years ago where I live here in Victoria in Australia.
You would not have been recognised as a woman legally.
You would have been treated as a male.
Your employer could fire you at any time.
And you faced arrest as male wearing woman's clothing.

Now I know some of the people here in Australia that have fought and continue to fight for our rights to be recognised as women.
There are many in the US, who are an inspiration to us all, where all the TS rights started from.

So go stealth, that is your prerogative, but send some money to the various organisations that have made it possible for you to be yourself.
And who continually protect you from some nut job politicians looking for a cheap votes from the right wing religious nut jobs to whom you .. and I .. and everyone else here .. are an abomination.

How hard is that?


I hate to be so blunt at times, but I follow politics quite a bit and I know how tenuous our legal positions are. And I know how powerful and determined are our enemies.
And make no mistake, if they get the upper hand then we will be in deep trouble.

[Melody Moore]

Lisa, how much do you contribute to trans rights & activism in Australia? I doubt that
you contribute anything at all because I have never come across your name ever
anywhere in the Australian Trans community, and I do know you have a Facebook
account without one single mutual trans friend. And I am sure if you Google my
name you will find my name coming up in lots of interesting news articles and links
on the net.

It does not matter how much a person gives back to the community and I believe every single
one of us given something back because we are all walking ambassadors for our own cause. But
even if you help just one person in their transition you are giving something back and I am 100%
sure that people like Kelly and myself continue to do that every single day. I have personally helped
thousands of trans people in the past couple of years and I know that after I leave the community
my legacy to start an agenda that focuses on the health and well being of the trans community will
live on because of the media campaign I started this year on the 20th of April after Jessica Johnson's
DIY SRS attempt. See: http://www.starobserver.com.au/news/2012/04/26/trans-action-group-takes-shape/76221 And you can also
see my group's new web page that I built here: http://www.transhealth.com.au

No one owes anybody anything. And it is lame to even make such unrealistic statements or
suggestion especially when you have no clue about the people you are trying to dictate to.
So stop trying to preach to the choir. Because this is all completely irrelevant to this topic anyway.

PS: Since when did trans rights start in America? There have been trans people fighting for the rights
in many other countries just as long as there has been those in America. In fact many countries had
better trans rights long before the USA ever did. So how can you put the USA on a pedestal like this?
Fact is we have been helping each others across borders and oceans for years, no one country can
claim all the credit for trans rights. These are issues trans people all over the world face.

[kellycan27]

Kelly, et al, if someone want to go stealth, fine. But give something back to all those who tirelessly campaign to create and maintain our rights.

Like, being able to change your name. To have your paperwork changed to female. To get your birth certificate changed. To get a female passport.
To have TS services funded. To get anti-discrimination laws, so you can still work and so on.
To get rid of laws than ban you form being a woman.

And so and so on.

Plus all these are under constant attack. There are many religious and right wing groups that want (and lobby hard) to change all these all things back again to the 1950s.

So some people fought very hard to get what we have got in many places. And keep fighting against every effort to turn them back.

Take you for example. 20 years ago where I live here in Victoria in Australia.
You would not have been recognised as a woman legally.
You would have been treated as a male.
Your employer could fire you at any time.
And you faced arrest as male wearing woman's clothing.

Now I know some of the people here in Australia that have fought and continue to fight for our rights to be recognised as women.
There are many in the US, who are an inspiration to us all, where all the TS rights started from.

So go stealth, that is your prerogative, but send some money to the various organisations that have made it possible for you to be yourself.
And who continually protect you from some nut job politicians looking for a cheap votes from the right wing religious nut jobs to whom you .. and I .. and everyone else here .. are an abomination.

How hard is that?


I hate to be so blunt at times, but I follow politics quite a bit and I know how tenuous our legal positions are. And I know how powerful and determined are our enemies.
And make no mistake, if they get the upper hand then we will be in deep trouble.

I've said my piece............ and stated my position.

[ReneeT]

Lisa, how much do you contribute to trans rights & activism in Australia? I doubt that
you contribute anything at all because I have never come across your name ever
anywhere in the Australian Trans community, and I do know you have a Facebook
account without one single mutual trans friend. And I am sure if you Google my
name you will find my name coming up in lots of interesting news articles and links
on the net.


This is what I was referring to in my comment about bitchiness. This is bitchiness, and it detracts from your credibility rather than enhancing it.

[ReineD]

Mea culpa. I've been away and had missed quite a few of the subtle "you are this", "you are that", "this is crap", comments that degenerate threads away from the original topic into a dysfunctional family squabble. Looking more closely at it, I see that it started on page one.

Thread closed.