Is it really double standards ?

[*ROXY*]

A question to Male CD's complaining about double standards.

I've read a lot of these comments on other threads and just wanted to query it without hijacking someone's story.

Right, picture the scene, your girlfriend or wife, who you've known for years tells you she wants to dress as a man most of the time. She wants to wear no make up, apply fake stubble or facial hair, bind her breasts, let her leg and armpit hair grow wild, cut her hair short, something down the y-fronts to emulate a penis. If she went out like that, there's a chance she'd pass as a man but if everyone knew she was a GG would they go - hell yeah that's fine, nothing odd there at all ?? really ?? I sincerely doubt it.
I'm not bringing transgendered individuals into this as they are not doing it for thrills/comfort/stress relief whatever reason us crossdressers choose to do it.
Can you honestly say you'de be great with that ?
Please don't think I'm saying women shouldn't be able to cut their hair short or wear mens clothes, grow armpit hair, it's personal choice. But when it becomes about emulating a man rather than just wearing male clothes it changes peoples perceptions.
There are two points to this.
1) Women who try to present as men FTM crossdressers if discovered to be would just as much be noticed as a man wearing a dress
2) Don't think you're all hard done by and assume it's all shits and giggles for women too, they are often judged unfairly on appearence, weight, height when wearing their own clothes let alone those of another gender.
I know personally that if my wife decided she wanted to do this I'd have to think long and hard about my relationship which I know she did with ours when I came out to her last year.
I've been massively fortunate that she is accepting of it, I can dress, wear makeup, wigs etc if I want, when I want. I've not ventured out yet but that may not happen.
It's easy to take the 'why is it alright for women to wear jeans and shirts' line but honestly mens clothing isn't massively distinctive from female counterparts of the same item. Jeans cut will be different and not hang as well, shirts un tailored just the same as a man wearing boyfriend cut womens jeans wouldn't stand out in crowd.
Am I the only one who feels this ?

[kimdl93]

I agree with your point on the so-called double standard. Many CDrs confuse the issue in their own minds. Of course we would like to be accepted without judgement when we wear womens clothing. But the usual argument - women can wear jeans and nobody complains - or variations of that theme, just misses the point. Women generally aren't wearing jeans for the expressed purpose of looking men. If anything, they often wear jeans in a manner that accentuates their femininity.

by contrast, there are of course women who want to present as male. I know that they face the same kinds of prejudice and stereotyping that we face.

[Dena]

I also agree! A feminine woman in men's clothes can be sexy, a masculine man in women's clothes is not sexy.

[Saffron]

So when a woman accentuates her femininity by using make up, padded bras or even plastic surgery, is not the same?

[EllieOPKS]

You make a great point. When you look at it from the other side of the fence you more less say WTF? I can easily see where others would have the same thoughts about cross dressers.

[katie_barns]

. Right, picture the scene, your girlfriend or wife, who you've known for years tells you she wants to dress as a man most of the time. She wants to wear no make up, apply fake stubble or facial hair, bind her breasts, let her leg and armpit hair grow wild, cut her hair short, something down the y-fronts to emulate a penis. If she went out like that, there's a chance she'd pass as a man but if everyone knew she was a GG would they go - hell yeah that's fine, nothing odd there at all ?? really ?? I sincerely doubt it.


You make a very valid point. I don't believe I would want to be married to Miss Butch. But women and men are held to completely different standards.
I ask that you clear your mind of todays standards and consider the pre-women's lib days. Women wore only dresses. Never left the house without presenting themselves in the most feminine light. Men of that time would never in a million years consider todays women, real girls. Your description above and a man's reaction are basically the way men of yesteryear would view todays women.
Women have been fighting for almost 70 years to dress and be treated as equals to men. So why do men have to be held to standards 100 years old. Mens minds have been conditioned over the years to accept women as equals in all aspects of life.

Woman can be conditioned too!


To address your other point. If it was totally ok for men to wear dresses and makeup there would be no need to emulate a woman. When I am out presenting as female I do so because it is unacceptable for me to be out dressed like that unless I was female. Yes it is more than the cloths for me. I like letting the feminine part of me out and the clothing is a major part of it.
Maybe 70 years from now it will be acceptable for men to dress in feminine attire without blinking an eye.
At that point we will all be androgynous and the only difference between men and women will be our sex organs.
I am all for the Mens Liberation Movement

[JohnH]

Men need to come up with masculine conventions with makeup, dresses, heels, etc. so they can wear those garments in a masculine context the same way as women have come up with feminine conventions for wearing pants. Why should a man have to "pass" as a woman to wear a dress?

John

[Karren H]

I'd call a divorce lawyer if she did that..... but I don't consider that to be a double standard because unlike many others I don't not blame my wife for not liking my crossdressing.... I totally understand her feelings and feel the same way... ergo no double standard!

[KellyJameson]

There is a disgust reaction that is more likely in reaction to a man emulating a woman but I have never seen this reaction to a woman emulating a man.

Think of what is more objectionable, a man walking down the street naked or crossdressed because the reaction by others will be based on the interpretation of the "why" he is doing this

I think it is wrapped up in sexuality where a man emulating a woman is seen as doing it for sexual reasons so it is reacted to as a perversion where it is not seen as
sexual when a woman emulates a man in that she could become sexually aroused by it

A heterosexual male that mistakenly and momentarily is attracted to what he thinks is a woman but realizes is a man could become angry if it threatens his self image that is bound up with how he expresses his sexuality.

Sexuality and masculinity (image of self as how "manly/masculine) are self reinforcing just as they are for femininity but what threatens femininity is not what threatens masculinity so a womans sense of self worth as a woman will not be threatened by making the mistake of being attracted to what she thinks is a man
but is actually a woman.

It does not go to her core identity because she does not use sex to establish her sense of self but instead to experience what is already there, where a man will
build his identity through his sexual behavior.

Women and men come at sex from opposite places in relationship to their identity.

Identity, sex and self is experienced very differently between the sexes but those on the TG spectrum seem to have the capacity to plant one foot in each world
so naturally express this experience causing great consternation from those who do not experience this and so have a difficult time understanding it.

What appears to be double standards goes much deeper because it is a conflict of similar energies in that someone who crossdresses carries the energy usually found in a biological female so the relationship will fail or there will be conflict until you find someone who is not repelled by and is attracted to your energy which is why being honest will protect you in that you will have short term pain but
avoid the long term pain of throwing your life away.

If you hide this energy (who you really are) than when it makes its appearance as it must because it is real and not what you have been trying to make real by acting instead of "being" there is going to be alot of pain to go all around.

Sexuality serves the energy you carry inside so what you are sexually attracted to is the expression of this energy and you cannot go against it without psychological
consequences that harm the self and others.

It makes perfect sense that most females will not be attracted to men who crossdress because the energy the person is expressing repels them because it is to similar to their own and they want the opposite which men intuitively understand and that is why many act "manly" to attract females.

This energy is primal and touches everything, it is always around us and we swim in its currents whether we like it or not.

[KlaireLarnia]

I personally believe that society has a problem when someone tried to be something they are blatantly not. Be it a man presenting as a woman or a woman presenting as a man. Whether we like it, society is split into male and female. We don't cross and play at being the other. If we want to do that - we have online games and social environments to do it.

There is no double standard. As I posted recently if my wife came to me and said she wanted to dress a man and be called "Bob" from now on I would freak out, have a mental and be ready to bolt out the door tomorrow morning if not sooner. And if I was to turn round to her and say I wanted to present as a woman and be called "Klaire" from now on I would expect a hard smack to the face, a good kick in the nuts and her to be out of the door faster than I could recover from the pain.

I think we as people can accept dressing in most forms but the role reversal to the degree of presenting as the other sex is never going to get accepted by the majority of society. As I am always male no matter what i wear or do, my wife sees my dressing as "one of my quirks" and deals with it. As long as it says like that she is happy to keep me in line with a few rules and we live on happily and very much in love. Suits me.

[Gena Gurl]

Vanessa, I agree with you. I think that when a woman wears a shirt and pants she doesn't want's to be a man, in fact I think they do it for comfort. Think about it, more likely they're wearing panties amd bra, maybe even their make up and heels they're still very femenine. They do not change their names to John, Steve or Jack. They do not change their manerisms and voice. They do not join web sites where they talk about their need for beards, mustaches and their junk. I never saw my wife just because she was wearing pants take the trash out, want to pick up a wrench and fix the car. That's not to say that there are not a few women that woul do that, but it would be a much smaller group. This said, when I put on the panties bra, hose, heels wig make-up and all that goes with dressing up, guess what? I do want to be and look like a woman. and that my friends that's the difference. I do not believe there's a double standard, and is just an excuse to justify what we do (And there is nothing wrong with it) it's just different. If you don't believe me ask any GG. Thanks Gena.

[reb.femme]

There is a disgust reaction that is more likely in reaction to a man emulating a woman but I have never seen this reaction to a woman emulating a man.

I'll say. Fully dressed in a motorway service area last night, a guy looked at me, read me straight away and couldn't get away quick enough. No words, but the face displayed a thousand words. Pure disgust and plainly nothing else.

Rebecca x

[NathalieX66]

I'll say. Fully dressed in a motorway service area last night, a guy looked at me, read me straight away and couldn't get away quick enough. No words, but the face displayed a thousand words. Pure disgust and plainly nothing else.
That's because people are trained to think a certain way.

it's ironic that, here in America , in many restaurants waitresses wear the same uniform as the waiters. This is a Tuxedo!........Something the men wear at a wedding while the women wear bridal gowns.

[KlaireLarnia]

There is a disgust reaction that is more likely in reaction to a man emulating a woman but I have never seen this reaction to a woman emulating a man.

When was the last time you saw a woman emulating or passing as a man? I don't mean wearing male clothes, I mean physically trying to pass - clothes, short male hair stubble, package down below etc? Not being critical but most women who dress in male clothes - or more normally in female versions of male clothes - are not trying to emulate women, just trying to put them on an even playing field with men. There is a big contrast between wearing the other sex's clothes and trying to emulate the other sex. I have been on this planet for just under 40 years and you know what, I reckon if I have seen 5 women trying to emulate/pass as male - I may have over estimated that figure. Flip the question over to how many men emulating women and I would be a lot higher I can tell you!


That's because people are trained to think a certain way.

it's ironic that, here in America , in many restaurants waitresses wear the same uniform as the waiters. This is a Tuxedo!........Something the men wear at a wedding while the women wear bridal gowns.

I have a question an it relates to my point above. In that image it is not clear (and I don't know where it came from so cannot see a larger version) but does the woman's jacket and shirt button up in the same direction as the man's? Why is that important because if it doesn't she is wearing a female one and not a male one. In a smart restaurant that is just about presentation and giving a business like service that is expected, but she is not emulating a man, just presenting herself in a very specific business way so everything is formal. I used to work for an Insurance company in the UK, when our main client came in, the women where expected to wear formal suits (i.e jacket and trousers - not skirts) as that is what the client expected to see in our call centre and that is exactly what they did see - everytime!

[NathalieX66]

Klaire, there maybe a feminine cut to her uniform in my photo, but I've seen plenty of examples on women where this is not the case.
We have an epidemic of unisex polo shirts for uniforms in the US....and may I say the UK too, as well. I took a train from London to Gravesend, Trent about three years ago, and the woman who was collecting the tickets was wearing a "Southeastern Rail" polo shirt .

[Lorileah]

I'm cool with it. I know what's under those clothes. She could wear what she wants. Now if she starts watching football with her hand down the front of her pants and quits shaving her beard...that is the end

[Tara D. Rose]

When was the last time you saw a woman emulating or passing as a man? I have been on this planet for just under 40 years and you know what, I reckon if I have seen 5 women trying to emulate/pass as male - I may have over estimated that figure.!

I have seen women out in public many times obviously trying to pass as men almost everyday that I go out and about town. Nobody gives them any looks of disgust. I sometimes point them out to my wife when we're out. But I do say to my wife, look around, no one doing a double take at them, no one acts disgusted towards women that are obviously presenting as men. Go to any large shopping mall and sit for a while, and you will see them. They walk freely out in public anywhere USA, without a problem. I don't have a problem with them at all. But they can do what we CD's can't do and that's go anywhere without fear of being laughed at out in public.
Tara

[TeresaL]

An eye opener thread for sure. What would we really do? Hmmm. My SO actually postured the same question, and it did throw me for a loop. I guess I wouldn't be very happy. But we did it to them, and that is hard to shake. For that most of us are truly sorry. I wasn't too depressed today until I saw this post and got to thinking about it.

Well, what can we do to make it up? Where do we go from here? We are stuck in a rut sometimes. And we've stuck our SO in a rut as well. What a travesty that was put upon us. My apologies, this brought me down for a bit Somehow though, things will get better. Glad I will see a therapist Thursday. Maybe (s)he can help both of us. It's long over due.

As for right now, I'm getting off the computer for a while, and am going to sit beside my wife -- maybe talk, maybe touch. She deserves much more.

ADDENDUM: being that I am transgender, I would accept her of course if she turned up and announced she is FTM. But I'm still going downstairs to spend the evening with her. I'm thankful that things aren't at the crisis level that they were when I first signed up.

[sissystephanie]

I'll say. Fully dressed in a motorway service area last night, a guy looked at me, read me straight away and couldn't get away quick enough. No words, but the face displayed a thousand words. Pure disgust and plainly nothing else.

Rebecca x

This is really quite interesting. I have been CD'ing for over 60 years, and have spent a lot of time out in public as Stephanie! My late wife knew that I was a CD when we married back in the mid 50's, and always did my makeup and fixed my wig when I went out in public because I was not very good at either! When she died 7 years ago, I decided to try going out dressed enfemme but looking like the man that I am. I have been doing that for 7 years now and have never had any comments made or even a "dirty" look!! There may be a double standard, but I have not seen evidence of it. And I live in the deep South, in what is regarded as real "Red Neck" country!

[Veronica27]

The male versus female dynamic is full of double standards, but the taboo against male crossdressing is not one of them. For examples of traditional double standards, simply review the rules of etiquette or such conventions as the man paying for the date, proposing marriage with the gift of a ring, or the rule "women and children first" in a tragedy. These double standards have loosened up considerably since women's liberation, but they still exist in many respects.

The variety of clothing options available to women compared to men is not an example of a double standard so much as it is just a reflection of modern style and fashion trends. There were eras in which the men were far more flambouyant than women. But the options available to women, even those that reflect similarity to traditional male wear, is not crossdressing in the generally accepted meaning of that term. As many have mentioned, crossdressing implies emulation of the opposite sex, not simply wearing their clothing. Many young girls try to not only dress like their male counterparts, but also to behave like them, talk like them and do many of the same activities. However the one thing they seldom do is attempt to be them, or have others think they are male. The typical crossdresser, on the other hand, even if he is not transgendered, still tries to "pass" as a woman with bra and breast forms, wig, makeup and mannerisms. Some, like Stephanie, make no effort to "pass", but they constitute a rather small minority of crossdressers, unless you take into consideration deeply closeted dressers who may only partially dress.

If it suddenly became fashionable for men to wear dresses or makeup or long hair styles or 6" heels it would not turn those that take advantage of the increased variety of options into crossdressers. They would merely be gaining an increase in one area of equality. It could reduce the amount of actual crossdressing that takes place, however, in several ways. If the prime motivation is the wearing of dresses and such, the newfound freedom would eliminate the need to fool anyone. For others whose motivation is the mystique of escaping into the forbidden world of femdom, the thrill might be lost by the easy availability of simply putting on a dress.

Veronica

[Jamie001]

Men need to come up with masculine conventions with makeup, dresses, heels, etc. so they can wear those garments in a masculine context the same way as women have come up with feminine conventions for wearing pants. Why should a man have to "pass" as a woman to wear a dress?

John

There should be no need for a "masculine convention" to wear the feminine items. If they attempt to masculinize then we will have clothing in black, brown, blue and gray, basically the same colorless palette that currently defines the majority of men's clothing. There was a time when a man could only wear white shirts and black ties. Men should have the same options in fashion but optionally cut for men's bodies. That means that if a man wants to wear pink capri pants, they should be available. Pumps and other women's shoes should be made in larger sizes for males.


This is really quite interesting. I have been CD'ing for over 60 years, and have spent a lot of time out in public as Stephanie! My late wife knew that I was a CD when we married back in the mid 50's, and always did my makeup and fixed my wig when I went out in public because I was not very good at either! When she died 7 years ago, I decided to try going out dressed enfemme but looking like the man that I am. I have been doing that for 7 years now and have never had any comments made or even a "dirty" look!! There may be a double standard, but I have not seen evidence of it. And I live in the deep South, in what is regarded as real "Red Neck" country!

I agree and have had the same experience as Sissy Stephanie. The difference is that Stephanie and I simply wear women's clothing as a male and don't attempt to deceive that we are a woman. We are simply feminine men wearing women's clothing. I am usually wearing capri pants. women's sandals, and bright red nail polish. I don't attempt to pass. I am just a feminine male and I am fine with that.

[Marissa]

I'd call a divorce lawyer if she did that..... but I don't consider that to be a double standard because unlike many others I don't not blame my wife for not liking my crossdressing.... I totally understand her feelings and feel the same way... ergo no double standard!

So you walking in with a full length dress with lovely heels is not a reason for her to run for a lawyer????? Its not a question about her liking your cding..but how would you feel?

Sorry, I have to add that if you are in a relationship, you have to be mindful of your SO.. acceptance, variance or whatever.. the fall out may be unknown, but you have to accept it.. I would hope that both parties find a median that works.. and I so love it when both can accept..

[Beverley Sims]

Double standards? When the shoe is on the other foot, you do think about it.
I sometimes think others should think about it more often.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Vanessa, If life was really fair it probably wouldn't be any fun.

[Angela Campbell]

It is a double standartd in the case of society. For instance. If a woman dresses like a man people look and just think she is being comfortable. A woman looks and makes a check mark in the column of "I look better" A man sees her that way and thinks ..."no she doesn't look so good but I wonder what she looks like naked.
If people see a man dressed like a woman the either think ...look a weirdo, or they laugh whether they be a man or woman seeing the cd.

If a woman is in a store and buys mens clothes or mens underwear no one thinks a thing. If a man is in the store buying womens clothes or underwear it is a major deal. Some think he is a perv others think he is weird.

I do think slowly it has moved to a better direction but it is going very slow.........Remember the 60's (showing my age huh) the beatles with the long hair was scandalous at the time...but look at the pictures, it was not very long at all. Barely touching the ears. Now hair down to the waist is not even noticed anymore. A man can wear a necklace or bracelet and it is ok. But that is about it for the times now. Maybe one day it will be a big fad for men to wear skirts or use makeup, you never know.

[Girliegirl]

Don't forget about the environment that kids are brought up in. girls who are more masculine in looks and behavior are nothing out off the ordinary. But boys are forced to repress their feminine sides for their entire lives. I never let any feminine tendancies out as a child. Adult women have no issue announcing to the world that they were tomboys as children, men do not share that ability to be able to announce to coworkers or buddies our anyone in passive conversation that they used to be "sissys" (for lack of a better word) as children. little suzy can run with the boys and and toss a football all day, but when little john starts applying nail polish there will be no end to the ridicule. Does anyone wonder of you weren't repressing those feelings as a child and you were able to pick out a cute hairstyle and have your nails done with mom, as a kid, that things might be more evenly balanced for you today as far as your comfort with your natural gender full time?

[thewife/soon2bex]

I've read these and was a little surprised by some of the reactions. Talk about double standards! So, if your wife were to say they would want to switch and dress as a man you would have issues??? Isn't that what you are expecting her to accept in you? Where is the double standard in this? Just my thoughts..

[Marleena]

I've read these and was a little surprised by some of the reactions. Talk about double standards! So, if your wife were to say they would want to switch and dress as a man you would have issues??? Isn't that what you are expecting her to accept in you? Where is the double standard in this? Just my thoughts..

I actually totally get it if a GG doesn't want any part of it. They expect a man all of the time. Since we are a minority it usually will be new to them. That is why it is so important for early disclosure. What I can add though is having a TG partner can also be very rewarding. It can add a new dimension to a relationship (and no not the sex part)..A TG partner will be more in tune to a woman's needs and feelings.

[thewife/soon2bex]

I actually totally get it if a GG doesn't want any part of it. They expect a man all of the time. Since we are a minority it usually will be new to them. That is why it is so important for early disclosure. What I can add though is having a TG partner can also be very rewarding. It can add a new dimension to a relationship (and no not the sex part)..A TG partner will be more in tune to a woman's needs and feelings.

This is not what I am saying. The comments in this tread talk about if a cd'r find out that their SO wants to switch they would have issues.. there is where the double standard lies..

[JohnH]

There should be no need for a "masculine convention" to wear the feminine items. If they attempt to masculinize then we will have clothing in black, brown, blue and gray, basically the same colorless palette that currently defines the majority of men's clothing. There was a time when a man could only wear white shirts and black ties. Men should have the same options in fashion but optionally cut for men's bodies. That means that if a man wants to wear pink capri pants, they should be available. Pumps and other women's shoes should be made in larger sizes for males..

I had NO intention that men should be more dull than women. If anything they should be flashier and more flamboyant than women. Look around at the animal kingdom - you see ducks, cardinals, etc. where the male is flashier than the female. That means the makeup, hair styles, and clothes for men should be bolder and more colorful that what women typically wear. There was a time men wore fancy wigs, heels, and makeup before the French Revolution. Current masculine convention violate nature in that masculine presentation is duller than women.

John

[Marleena]

This is not what I am saying. The comments in this tread talk about if a cd'r find out that their SO wants to switch they would have issues.. there is where the double standard lies..

I realize that. I didn't want to tackle that, but yes it is a double standard. We want to be accepted as TG but most (I think) couldn't handle it if their SO was TG.

[Wildaboutheels]

Trying to fight EVOLUTION is a losing battle. Evolution is why women must compete for men. WHY women need to spend far more time on their visusl appearance than men.

Women's clothing is usually more form fitting/form flattering than men's because of this. End of story.

Hair, makeup, nails etc. are also PART of this visual presentation. Again, it is built into our brains.

The REAL question here [to me] is NOT why one chooses to "misrepresent" their sex in some manner. I would not have any problem with any woman [or girlfriend] who wanted to "present" as a man SOMETIMES or wear any item/s of men's clothing. The real question is whether the clothing/presentation changes the person on the INSIDE.

People should wear whatever clothing they find comfortable or appealing regardless of whether it came from the women's or men's department.

[thewife/soon2bex]

I realize that. I didn't want to tackle that, but yes it is a double standard. We want to be accepted as TG but most (I think) couldn't handle it if their SO was TG.

Maybe this is something that should be tackled in the Cd'r realm? Maybe instead of taking angst that a GG cannot accept this - look at how the reaction of a Cd'r to their SO being TG and think about how a CD'r would react and maybe then it can truly be seen by the CD population as to how and why a GG would react the way they would. I am not saying that CD'rs are wrong in any way. I believe everyone should have the freedom to be whoever they are most comfortable being. Just trying to throw out another view and maybe shed some light onto a difficult and thought provoking topic.

[Marleena]

Maybe this is something that should be tackled in the Cd'r realm? Maybe instead of taking angst that a GG cannot accept this - look at how the reaction of a Cd'r to their SO being TG and think about how a CD'r would react and maybe then it can truly be seen by the CD population as to how and why a GG would react the way they would. I am not saying that CD'rs are wrong in any way. I believe everyone should have the freedom to be whoever they are most comfortable being. Just trying to throw out another view and maybe shed some light onto a difficult and thought provoking topic.

I totally get it. Disclosure early on heads off issues and allows one to decide how to handle a situation be it GM or GG. MTF's and FTM's are both minorities and many people don't know much about either. If two people care enough about each other they'll try to make a go of it.

*off topic*
As far as the griping about MTF's not being able to wear women's clothes without judgement while women can wear mens clothes, it's just the way it is. Not much can be done except re-educating.

[Girliegirl]

Another point to draw attention to, because it is relevant to this topic, is equanimity. It is a bhuddist term along the lines of personal freedom. Google it. women do have more personal equanimity than men in general when it comes to personal expression and choice. You can look at almost any womens clothing catalog and see a collection called"menswear". But will never find in a mens catalog, "womenswear". Women are allowed (or have fought and earned) those rights by society. Men are much slower to allow that sort of change in tradition or deviation from routine. That is very telling, especially through the social sigma of crossdressing males and the lack of any sort of outlet of any personal femininity. And it is strict, even capri pants, literally the length of a pair of pants is deemed feminine and will draw strange looks in public if on a male. And out is my belief that through more equanimity allowed for the make population would result in fewer "crossdressers."

[thewife/soon2bex]

I totally get it. Disclosure early on heads off issues and allows one to decide how to handle a situation be it GM or GG. MTF's and FTM's are both minorities and many people don't know much about either. If two people care enough about each other they'll try to make a go of it.

*off topic*
As far as the griping about MTF's not being able to wear women's clothes without judgement while women can wear mens clothes, it's just the way it is. Not much can be done except re-educating.


Ok... still not getting it. I did truly care about him. In fact I will always love him. But with Love has to be trust and that is gone. That is where the issues lies with us. I can never trust him again. I actually do not believe that CD's is a minority. I believe it is much more then people think. I believe by looking at the volume of this here on this site it is much bigger then anyone realizes. Since everything has come out (for a lack of a better term) in our marriage, everytime I turn on the tv something refers to this or maybe I am beginning to see it more now. They even now have a Barbie who is a CD'r. Yep.. saw it on the news. I believe that if someone truly believes in what they are and wants to be accepted by society they need to be able to defend it. If you look at years ago those who are gay decided to stand proud. I believe it is now being accepted by society. Not all of society.. but much more then it was accepted in the past.

But they stood up for what they believed to be right and we now have those in the entertainment industry who are openly gay and accepted. We also have those who are TG in the entertainment field who are being accepted. If you CD you should stand up and be proud. Be who you are and know that you are individuals who if banded together can change perceptions.

Just my thoughts.

[Marleena]

Ok... still not getting it. I did truly care about him. In fact I will always love him. But with Love has to be trust and that is gone. That is where the issues lies with us. I can never trust him again. I actually do not believe that CD's is a minority. I believe it is much more then people think. I believe by looking at the volume of this here on this site it is much bigger then anyone realizes. Since everything has come out (for a lack of a better term) in our marriage, everytime I turn on the tv something refers to this or maybe I am beginning to see it more now. They even now have a Barbie who is a CD'r. Yep.. saw it on the news. I believe that if someone truly believes in what they are and wants to be accepted by society they need to be able to defend it. If you look at years ago those who are gay decided to stand proud. I believe it is now being accepted by society. Not all of society.. but much more then it was accepted in the past.

But they stood up for what they believed to be right and we now have those in the entertainment industry who are openly gay and accepted. We also have those who are TG in the entertainment field who are being accepted. If you CD you should stand up and be proud. Be who you are and know that you are individuals who if banded together can change perceptions.

Just my thoughts.

I was not talking about your relationship, I was taking about relationships in general with a TG person. I don't know what went wrong with yours. We're going off topic so I'll PM you instead.:)

[Angela Campbell]

Maybe the reason is a lot of men...cd and normal....absolutely adore the female form. I do so much I want to be one too. I think females of all sizes and shapes are absolutely beautiful and cannot understand wanting to minimize the femininity. That said if either of my 2 exes wanted ot become more manly when they were with me I would have helped them all the way.

[Eryn]

If my wife wanted to "go all the way" in FTM CDing I would support her, as she has supported me. It's the right thing to do, and it's what we promised each other when we took our marriage vows.

Now, what is the likelihood that she would actually want to go all the way and desire to be perceived as a man? I think that it's lessened considerably by the fact that GGs are allowed to "walk the middle ground" and wear clothes associated with GMs without attracting any negative notice. She already has the best of both worlds in her normal situation. The only thing that she's missing is male modes of interaction. On the other side of the coin, the only way I can go out in pretty clothes without causing a disturbance is if I am perceived to be female.

Now, there are obviously some GGs who are truly FTM, but very few compared to the number of GMs who wish to go MTF. If the "middle ground" were equally accessible to both males and females there would probably be fewer MTF CDers as we would now be perfectly happy to live in that "middle ground." The situation would be much better balanced than it is currently.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Eryn, right on.
There is absolutely a double standard, not saying every pair of pants is masculine, but nonetheless, women can wear more. There's a young woman at my gym who I have seen twice in the past week wearing an over-sized, men's SF Giants shirt (I know it's from the men's section because I've bought the same shirt) and baggy basketball shorts that go to about mid-calf (and I have many relatives who have played basketball, I know these are men's shorts). Nobody pays any attention at all to her (except me, of course. :)) and she does as she pleases. If a man shows up in yoga pants and a tight, pink or lavendar tee shirt, everyone would stare.

[Jamie001]

Another point to draw attention to, because it is relevant to this topic, is equanimity. It is a bhuddist term along the lines of personal freedom. Google it. women do have more personal equanimity than men in general when it comes to personal expression and choice. You can look at almost any womens clothing catalog and see a collection called"menswear". But will never find in a mens catalog, "womenswear". Women are allowed (or have fought and earned) those rights by society. Men are much slower to allow that sort of change in tradition or deviation from routine. That is very telling, especially through the social sigma of crossdressing males and the lack of any sort of outlet of any personal femininity. And it is strict, even capri pants, literally the length of a pair of pants is deemed feminine and will draw strange looks in public if on a male. And out is my belief that through more equanimity allowed for the make population would result in fewer "crossdressers."

Yes additional freedom of expression for males would result in fewer crossdressers. The reason that men fear anything feminine is that they equate a feminine man with homosexuality and most men are extremely homophobic. This homophobia does not exist ot he same degree in women. Why?

[Jamie001]

Ok... still not getting it. I did truly care about him. In fact I will always love him. But with Love has to be trust and that is gone. That is where the issues lies with us. I can never trust him again. I actually do not believe that CD's is a minority. I believe it is much more then people think. I believe by looking at the volume of this here on this site it is much bigger then anyone realizes. Since everything has come out (for a lack of a better term) in our marriage, everytime I turn on the tv something refers to this or maybe I am beginning to see it more now. They even now have a Barbie who is a CD'r. Yep.. saw it on the news. I believe that if someone truly believes in what they are and wants to be accepted by society they need to be able to defend it. If you look at years ago those who are gay decided to stand proud. I believe it is now being accepted by society. Not all of society.. but much more then it was accepted in the past.

But they stood up for what they believed to be right and we now have those in the entertainment industry who are openly gay and accepted. We also have those who are TG in the entertainment field who are being accepted. If you CD you should stand up and be proud. Be who you are and know that you are individuals who if banded together can change perceptions.

Just my thoughts.

I completely agree. Why not stand-up and be who you are? That is the real question and it is the only way to make progress similar to the progress that gays have made in the last 10 years. If men would just wear women's clothing, makeup, nail polish, etc without attempting to deceive that they are a woman, I believe that society would be more accepting. That is the BIG DIFFERENCE. When a woman wears men's clothing, she is not attempting to make folks believe that she is a man. If men would just wear women's clothing without attempting to be a woman then I believe that we would be much more accepted by society. It worked for women and it will work for us.

[DebbieL]

A question to Male CD's complaining about double standards.

I've read a lot of these comments on other threads and just wanted to query it without hijacking someone's story.

Right, picture the scene, your girlfriend or wife, who you've known for years tells you she wants to dress as a man most of the time. She wants to wear no make up, apply fake stubble or facial hair, bind her breasts, let her leg and armpit hair grow wild, cut her hair short, something down the y-fronts to emulate a penis. If she went out like that, there's a chance she'd pass as a man but if everyone knew she was a GG would they go - hell yeah that's fine, nothing odd there at all ?? really ?? I sincerely doubt it.

Actually, a woman doesn't even have to go to those extremes, all she has to do is cut her hair short, wear a loose fitting shirt, and baggy pants, and people will treat her like a man. My great grandmother homesteaded in Montana, with her sister, and no other men. She was allowed to own the land. However, when a woman came into town wearing a shirt and suspenders, the men of the town would likely have her tarred, feathered, and rode out of town on a rail. To those doing it, it seemed funny, and didn't seem all that bad, but the person tarred and feathered nearly always died a very slow and painful death, because the tar stuck to their flesh, blocked the pores and caused their body temperature to rise to the point where, if they were lucky, their brain would boil. If not, they would start to itch and scratch, which would peel off the tar, and the skin along with it. Being rode out on a rail involved being tied to a long fence rail and dragged over the dirt, which usually led to lots of cuts and abrasions as well as broken bones. Those who were really unlucky might lay out in the wilderness for days, itching, bleeding, every touch, every movement causing intense pain, until dehydration killed them - usually in 4-5 days (since they couldn't perspire it took longer).

Women very quickly learned that if they wanted to go into town, they had to wear a full length skirt, blouse, and a bonnet. When the women worked on the farm, they wore trousers because they didn't want to get tripped up by the skirts, they kept their hair short because they didn't want to deal with the heat of long hair - especially since there wasn't warm water to wash it. They also didn't want to get sick from lice, fleas, and ticks that were so common when working with horses, livestock, farms, and freshly chopped trees. They homesteaded the land for 7 years, as did many other women - many of whom had lost their husbands in war, or when the railroad brought in the cowboys who would murder the fathers who were "sod busters" - so that the family would be forced to forfeit the property. The railroad usually gave the women and their families fare back east, but some took the cash, their livestock, their wagons, and moved from Missouri to Montana.

Of course, by the time these women had spent 14 years pushing a plow, chopping trees, to build log cabins, hunting game, herding horses, oxen, and livestock, they were as big and strong as most men, with muscles as big and firm as any man's, and since that included muscles in the waist and back, breasts were smaller relatively. According to stories told by my great grandmother - when one of the railroad men offered to marry one of these women (so he could take her land), she picked him up and threw him 20 feet into a horse trough. Sure, he was scrawny, but she was big enough and strong enough to pull a plow, let alone guide the horse who pulled it, and she could lift a full grown hog to butcher it. After 14 years of lifting logs, swinging an axe, and holding a shotgun, pulling a plow, pulling up stumps, and even simple things like carrying buckets of water from the creek to the cabin - made them look more like men than women. My grandmother's forearms were larger than most men's thighs, and her legs were bigger than the thighs of men who were over 6 feet tall.

It took women almost 100 years to go from being tarred and feathered for wearing pants, to Hillary Clinton and her "Sisterhood of the traveling pants". The fire in the shirtwaist factory that killed almost a hundred women who were locked in and couldn't get out the locked doors as the fabric and clippings burned - fueling a fire that killed all of the trapped women. Carrie Nation, Susan B Anthony, and the suffragette movement fought to make it illegal to for a man to get drunk and beat his wife to death, to give women the right to vote, and to restrict drinking even after prohibition.


I'm not bringing transgendered individuals into this as they are not doing it for thrills/comfort/stress relief whatever reason us crossdressers choose to do it.
Can you honestly say you'de be great with that ?

Crossdressers are transgendered - they just aren't transsexual. A transgender is someone who feels or wants the experience of the opposite gender, on any basis, be that the transsexual who wants to live as a woman full time and have the SRS, the She-male who wants to look and dress and act like a woman, but keep the family jewels, the cross-dresser who wants to be able to go out and pass, but wants to be able to continue living as a man some or most of the time, the transvestite who wants to dress in woman's cloths in the privacy of his own home, and the fetish dresser who only wants to wear particular items either at home, or under their regular clothes. Any transgender may also experience sexual arousal - or not, and may feel that it's feminine. There are other dynamics for both MtF and FtM transgenders and transsexuals, they may involve power, vulnerability, the desire to be violent or to be non-violent, the desire to woo or to be wooed.

At one time, women wanted to dress and act like men because men had so much power, and women had so little, men had careers and ruled the house, wives stayed home, raised the kids, did the laundry, cleaned the house, and were still expected to dress "Respectably" by the time their husband got home, and be ready to have sex with him if he wanted it, even if he didn't give her much pleasure. By the 1950s, there were almost no accurate marital guides, most men had learned about sex in brothels as soldiers, and it had become a common practice of many mothers to harden their daughter's hymen by washing and messaging it - making even marital sex so painful that it was intolerable. In some cases, it was so bad that a doctor had to surgically cut the hymen under local anesthetic. Freud the fraud had written authoritative books on sex claiming that clitoral stimulation was immature and that "mature" women didn't need clitoral stimulation - based on his experiences with prostitutes (who were faking it).

But starting in the early 1960s, with the birth control pill, things began to change. Kinsey had written his book on male sexuality, the book on female sexuality was so controversial that it was banned, Masters & Johnson came out with their report, which was less controversial, and women began to discover their own sexual pleasure, and men were taught that it was good to provide clitoral stimulation, and the Hite report opened up whole new dimensions in female sexuality.

Women's liberation started with the burning of the bras, but soon they realized that they could claim and hold power, without giving up their identity as women. They began to take power in the work-place, planning real careers as doctors, lawyers, engineers, and business executives, instead of just planning to be secretaries, nurses, and waitresses or legal secretaries hoping to hook a good man. They began to take power in the home as well, earning good money, better appliances like washing machines, dryers, dishwashers, and microwave ovens meant they needed to spend less time at home and could work more, and could delegate many of their chores to their sons and daughters.

Changes in divorce laws, in the United States, the Uniform Dissolution of Marriage Act assured that the mother would receive child support, even if she got married, which meant that if a husband was abusive, violent, a drunkard, or raped her, or beat her children, she could get a divorce and be assured of at least enough income to assure that her children did not end up homeless. The deal was so good that many women who married well for the first marriage, assured of 1/2 the income of a husband who had a substantial income as a doctor, engineer, accountant, or business manager, could get a divorce, get half his after-tax income as child support, get the house and one of the cars, and then find a boyfriend or husband who didn't have to work as hard, preferably someone who was on disability due to mental health problems, drug overdose, or other non-contagious medical issue - so he could stay home and take care of the kids, get paid disability, and she could work - giving her even more after-tax income than she had with her original husband.

With less need to please a husband on which she was totally dependent, women began to dress more for comfort, than for fashion. They dressed to impress, to impress other women, and to disarm other men, to be treated like "one of the boys", to get into the old boy network. Women in engineering and technology often started dressing more like the boys, wearing the same style "golf-shirts", loose fitting pants, flat shoes, and kept their hair pulled back or cut short, and wore glasses similar to those worn by the male counterparts. In medical practice, nurses traded their short dresses for scrubs similar to those worn by the doctors, residents, and interns when they were doing their rounds. Ironically, it reduced the number of infections picked up in the hospital as well. Women who went into business management often went with a cross between the masculine and feminine, wearing pants and satin or light cotton blouses under jackets, part of this was to remain comfortable in air-conditioned offices. Where women did extremely well staying in their skirt and heels was in sales. Some women in sales would wear the hair, make-up, satin blouse, skirt and heels, and would close sales on large contracts - often earning more in a few hours a day than most men would earn working 50-60 hours per week. In many cases, they understood that they were seducing the prospect and then closing the deal with sex appeal, but often they could still do it without having to do anything they didn't want to do. Women in sales and business negotiations were taught that they could get as much as 40% more just by wearing the clothes that appeal to the prospect, even if they didn't make any sexual advances. "Get a man thinking with his other head, and he'll agree to things the head between his ears would never accept".

Many women, in the 70s and 80s began to experience real power, political, economic, social, and sexual power. Hillary Clinton wrote the legal premise for the impeachment of Richard Nixon, Madonna began to push the envelope, combining sexuality and erotic power with economic power, and then using it for political power and social change. During the Rcontriversialeagan Administration, the Meese Commission was trying to ban erotic bondage, while Madonna was pushing the envelope in a Bustier. Girls began to see that they could be sexy and powerful at the same time, even use sex to gain power, but at the same time, they could be "situation appropriate", wearing more modest clothing to school, shopping centers, and other events where they were not intent on manipulating others, and then wearing erotic, even "kinky" outfits to manipulate men into giving them drugs, money, and get the man to please them sexually, to give them what they wanted, before giving the man what he wanted. With AIDS, women learned to please men without the risk of "normal" vaginal sex, learning new ways to control and please a man, and force the man to give her pleasure.

Meanwhile men were being forced to "close ranks". In the 1960s, we were still in the height of the Vietnam war, and the President's Council on Physical Fitness was telling coaches and athletic programs that if they wanted to keep their funding, they needed to focus on creating soldiers, and that 4Fs, queers and faggots were to be dehumanized and made into targets - to keep as many as possible in the pool available for the draft, especially minorities, who were used as "Scouts" - a job the french did by herding pigs through the booby traps, punji sticks, and mine fields. The scouts were the most frequently killed, and were used to draw fire, target the enemy, and then sit tight while the jets dropped napalm all around them (and sometimes on top of them).

When the girls were allowed to wear pants, the deal was that the boys would be allowed to wear shorts, but the Gym teachers made sure that didn't happen. They would have the biggest and strongest boys, those with a reputation for violence - and have them "Make an example of the little faggots" - when a boy wore shorts to school. After 3-4 boys were dragged over the pavement, stripping the flesh off their stomachs, chest, thighs, and knees, none of the boys wanted to take the risk of wearing shorts. Even today, boys were much longer shorts, to hide their thighs.

Women can be as masculine as they want. My first wife had her hair cut shorter than mine, wore baggy flannel shirts, and baggy corduroy pants, and even bought men's shoes. I was even complemented on why a fine young man I was with, she was often called "sir" until she pulled out her credit card. She looked like a young 12-16 year old boy. There were a few people who knew me and knew her and wondered if I was a bit of a pedophile.

We were quite the couple, especially when I'd be wearing my short shorts, woman's shirt, and long hair. I shaved my legs, and there were times when people assumed that I was the mother and she was the father of the baby in the stroller. It was ironic that she never felt uncomfortable dressing like a boy, even stitching up the crotch on a pair of my boxer shorts and wearing them in public, yet freaked when I wore satin panties to bed.

I've known several FtM transgenders. They don't have to wear anything between their legs, and if they don't have to do too much more than wear a tight camisole or T-shirt to flatten themselves enough to pass by wearing a loose baggy shirt and baggy pants. A pair of cowboy boots, work boots, or men's work shoes completes the look, and they can pass as men so well they can even use the men's room. One FtM would often not tell a woman until they were already in the bedroom, when her partner would find out that she might not have the equipment with her at the time, but she could do things that men wouldn't think of doing. But like a man, she didn't stay with one woman very long before she moved on. She even acted homophobic - to discourage gay men.

The MtF transgender or transsexual has much more at stake if detected by the wrong element. Fundamentalist Christians have been trained to believe that it's their duty to kill homosexuals and transsexuals. They are more vulnerable, and because they have exposed more flesh, there is a higher risk of being read based on hair on legs, face, or arms, and they have to hide their Adam's apple, and there are the extra bulges between the legs that need to be packed away so they don't give away at the wrong time, and then there are the breasts. High end breast forms can help, but if the blouse is too low, and the cleavage is examined too closely (very likely if you pad to a D-cup), you get clocked.

Getting clocked today isn't nearly as dangerous as it used to be, but it still depends on where you are. In Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, or most of Africa, transsexuals are put to death, cross-dressers are presumed to be smugglers or terrorists and shot on recognition. In South America, transgenders are often castrated. Here in the United States about 400 MtF transgenders are killed every year. Many are killed outside gay bars.

The Suicide rate among MtF transgenders is astonishing, over half of all transgenders will kill themselves before they are 30, of those who survive, more than half have tried to kill themselves, and about 40% say they used methods that SHOULD have killed them.

The suicide rate for FtM transgenders - tom-boys - is much lower, but this may be because there are fewer transgender FtMs who feel that they must transition, and many of those can do so with much less resistance from the community, and less persecution.

The simplest and most dramatic example is the bathroom. A woman could use the men's bathroom, and they wouldn't be accused of being perverts, they wouldn't be arrested. An FtM transgender even one who just wore pants and a baggy flannel shirt, and had short hair - could easily go into the men's room and wait for a stall. I've heard that some women have even learned to go in the urinal. Nobody raises an eyebrow, nobody is checking, and in fact, it's unacceptable to for any man to look over to check out what another man is packing. But if a woman were caught, there wouldn't be a jealous girlfriend ready to beat the crap out of her or cut her boobs off.

On the other hand, when an MtF transgender uses the ladies' room, there is all kinds of risk from the second she gets into the line. If she's read in the line, the women may just tell her to use the men's. If she is detected in the bathroom - she could be arrested in many states and cities. If arrested, she would be put in the men's holding cell, with a bunch of other men. Even if she had full breasts, so long as she still had the testes, she would be put in the "boy's room", where she would likely be raped.

If the women didn't deal with it through the law, one or more of the women would go to their boyfriends and tell them about the pervert in the ladies room, and expect their boyfriends to "do something about it". Depending on their state of mind, how intoxicated they are, and how violent they are naturally, the "solution" could range from a beating with fists and boots, to being castrated with a jack-knife. One of the most important aspects of gender transition counseling is teaching the transsexual how to handle these volatile situations gracefully, so that they can do what needs to be done without causing any more upset than absolutely necessary.

Eventually, a transsexual will reach the point where she is living full-time as a woman, and can legally have her status changed, but even before then, she can do everything as a woman, and can manage those rare occasions where she does get "clocked" in a way that results in compassion and confidentiality, rather than ridicule and derision. Even then, there is always the risk that some fundamentalist christian nutcase will still decide to take the bible out of context and too literally and decide to do God's will by killing the "Sodomite".


Please don't think I'm saying women shouldn't be able to cut their hair short or wear mens clothes, grow armpit hair, it's personal choice. But when it becomes about emulating a man rather than just wearing male clothes it changes peoples perceptions.
There are two points to this.
1) Women who try to present as men FTM crossdressers if discovered to be would just as much be noticed as a man wearing a dress

The bigger risk for them is that they could find themselves in a situation where they are alone in a group of men who get very drunk and violent. If she is truly FtM, she knows how to fight, and has studied at least a few martial arts forms, and can hold her own in a fight, but when someone gets her from behind or she gets into a situation she can't handle, and she's knocked out, there is the risk that she will come out of it forgetting that she still has to pass as a man. If the boys discover that she's a girl, they might want to teach her a lesson by taking advantage of the fact that she's a girl. There is the risk of rape, sodomy, and other forms of sexual and physical abuse.


2) Don't think you're all hard done by and assume it's all shits and giggles for women too, they are often judged unfairly on appearance, weight,
height when wearing their own clothes let alone those of another gender.

Absolutely! In fact, one of the things that is interesting is that when MtFs begin to transition, one of the first things they do is lose a LOT of weight. They end up with a much nicer figure, because they want to be beautiful and sexy, like the women they have admired and wanted to be for so long. Even if they are just cross-dressers, they wanted to be Cher, Madonna, or Brittiney Spears - not Moma Cass, Rosanne Barr, or Rosie O'Donnel. They want to be attractive.

The irony is that in doing so, they actually draw too much attention to themselves, which gets them clocked way too often. It's when they learn to tone down the make-up, the hair, and wear pants instead of skirts, and wear a camisole under the low-cut blouse - that they begin to be able to pass. For some, especially cross-dressers, having to tone in down and look just like the other 2,000 women in the shopping mall, just average, takes all the fun out of it. For the transsexual, it's what they have always wanted, to just be another one of the girls, to go shopping with them, to share the gossip, to be all the things that come with a woman.

I remember someone joking about the transsexual who got a sex change and now has to work twice as hard to get have the pay. This has more truth than anyone would like to admit, but it's true. Many of the advantages they had when they were perceived as men, are no longer available to them as women. They have to learn new strategies for success, they can't shout down someone in a meeting, and they might even have to present their best ideas to a man they know will take the credit, so that their solution will actually be implemented. They may even transition into sales, where being better dressed, more fashion aware, and prettier than the average girl - is an asset, but where they may have to perform sexual favors to close the deal, and need to make sure that they can keep control of the situation so they don't get exposed.


I know personally that if my wife decided she wanted to do this I'd have to think long and hard about my relationship which I know she did with ours when I came out to her last year.
I've been massively fortunate that she is accepting of it, I can dress, wear makeup, wigs etc if I want, when I want. I've not ventured out yet but that may not happen.
It's easy to take the 'why is it alright for women to wear jeans and shirts' line but honestly mens clothing isn't massively distinctive from female counterparts of the same item. Jeans cut will be different and not hang as well, shirts un tailored just the same as a man wearing boyfriend cut womens jeans wouldn't stand out in crowd.
Am I the only one who feels this ?

Actually, both of my wives have been known to buy their clothes from the men's department. My first wife regularly purchased from the boy's department the first few years of our marriage.

Ironically, I have been buying most of my pants from the women's section, because I have very long legs and women's pants cut for heels are longer. I also have a big but, so a women's size fits me much better than a men's size. For example, I look very good in a women's 18 or 20, but I would struggle to fit into a men's 40, I'd have to go to a 44 or 48 and wear a belt and gather everything in to keep the pants from falling off, but knowing that they would probably be stopped by my hips and butt.

I wear those pants to work, to church, and most of the time. I almost never wear men's pants, they are too uncomfortable, especially jeans. I'll wear men's dress pants to corporate meetings with executives, or to certain church functions, but for the most part, they are reserved for special occasions. I also wear women's underwear all the time. At work I'll wear men's shirts, big loose and baggy. If I were to wear a golf shirt or a tight fitted shirt, my B-cups would show, even without a bra. Sometimes, I'll even wear a shape-wear camisole under the shirt if I am wearing a fitted shirt or sweater.

Even my footwear is on the border, mostly women's wear, low chunky heels, that give my feet some support, and seem to help my back. The heels are 1 to 2 inches high, and again, I wear them to work, to church, and most of the time. Even my athletic shoes are women's shoes. They fit better, they look better, and I feel good when I wear them.

In many cases, all I have to do to appear is put on a bra, a wig, and some make-up (still have some hair removal to be done on chin and upper lip), and I don't even have to change my clothes. The funny thing is that when I wear a woman's cotton tee, I can pass as a woman with the wig, bra, and make-up, and almost pass as a man just by taking off the wig and the bra.

[Rianna Humble]

Men need to come up with masculine conventions with makeup, dresses, heels, etc. so they can wear those garments in a masculine context the same way as women have come up with feminine conventions for wearing pants. Why should a man have to "pass" as a woman to wear a dress?

This sounds quite logical apart from the fact that each time that a designer has come up with a "man-dress" or a "man-skirt" people in this forum have queued up to say that they wouldn't want to wear something like that. There may be the occasional cross-dresser who wouldn't mind a man-skirt, but they are few and far between from what I have seen here.

I can't help wondering how many of those who complain about the supposed double standard would actually be content wearing man-skirts and man-dresses?


There is a disgust reaction that is more likely in reaction to a man emulating a woman but I have never seen this reaction to a woman emulating a man.

Have you seen many FtM cross-dressers or FtM transsexuals? Or is this quote actually referring to women who wear jeans or "boyfriend shirts"?