When do you stop being a man?

[Nicole Erin]

Thought I knew the answer to this.
I am not talking about "passing is a state of mind" or any of that.

What I do mean is - OK so my experience is - if someone knows my gender status, they will inevitably call me a "man".
Does that just happen cause for some, I do mention my gender status (only in the most necessary cases though). I know one member here was always saying never to talk about it and I guess this is why.

I always thought level of passing had something to do with it. I don't know where I am cause some say, "I never would have guessed" and some seem to figure it out quick (happens more often lately, not sure why) So like if someone passes as flawlessly as a TS can, would they still be seen as a "man" if someone found out?

Kind of sucks though you try to look your best, have your voice together, mannerisms, presentation, and then have someone call you a man.

So what is the real deal here?

[Melody Moore]

Nicole, I totally understand where you are coming from.

My advice is just BE the woman. If someone misgenders you, then simply correct
them and stand up for the person you are. If you need to make a formal complaint, to
ensure it doesnt happen again, then do it, but after move on leaving the issue behind.

The world is far from perfect and many people often make mistakes and need to be corrected :)
:hugs: xx

[kimdl93]

I'm transgendered, but I'll give you my reaction. I don't think there's a real deal here. Perception of gender is in the eyes of the beholder. If I know someone (MtF) is transitioning - regardless of the degree - I will consider them as a woman and refer to them accordingly, even if they have identifiable male traits. That seems to me a matter of courtesy. But others may just go by their inate reaction to a persons features. Still others will insist that gender is immutable --if you're born male, you're male and thats it. And others, like the Tennessee DMV, will insist on a literal interpretation requiring a legal determination to establish gender.

In my case, I am by all physical and legal standards still a man, although I live more than 70% of my life as a woman. When I'm read, I just accept it. But I don't feel too bad because there are women, who because of their height, build or other features, are themselves mistaken for men. And there are times when, though I know I'm easily read, people will treat me as a woman, open doors for me, call me Ma'm. I welcome these experiences.

[kellycan27]

You stop being a man when you become comfortable with yourself as a woman. If someone on the outside causes you to doubt yourself, and as long as you feel you have to prove yourself... you're truly not comfortable with you.

[Traci Elizabeth]

You stop being a man when you become comfortable with yourself as a woman. If someone on the outside causes you to doubt yourself, and as long as you feel you have to prove yourself... you're truly not comfortable with you.



:iagree: .

[Nigella]

You decide when you become a woman. How others percieve you is down to conditioning. Throughout life humans are conditioned to associate certain visual signs with a certain gender. That is never going to change. How far you want to draw attention to the new you by "correcting" them is all dependent on how comfortable you are with yourself.

I have a simple philosophy in how I interact with those who are uncertain on how to address me, if they use the incorrect nouns etc, they have no impact on my life, then why worry. Those who do make a mistake, but have an impact on my life, I gently correct.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Actually I decided to stop being a male when I took my 1st breath.

[kellycan27]

Actually I decided to stop being a male when I took my 1st breath.

You win Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

[KellyJameson]

We begin to label things as we develop language assigning symbols to the physical world so everything we take in through our senses we assign meaning to by what we
call it (label it) so a tree is different from a cat and our senses through experience tell us so.

The labels become reality (truth) but our senses deceive us because we are more than what can be learned through the senses in that we are born with truths inside
us.

On some level you have to break free from language because it is a false representation of truth in that being a man or woman is more than the body you reside in but states of mind which compel us to search for that which symbolizes and allows us to experiece this state of truth

You are a woman whether others see it or not.

In my opinion it is very important to come from that place (understanding) and than work toward how you present yourself to the world because otherwise you will be hurt by being defined not by the truth (you) but what others define (think) is the truth.

You have to reject other peoples opinions of what is true or false concerning who you are and embrace your truth which is very difficult because our original conception of truth is given to us by others who have defined what is a man, woman and everything else in the world.

We live a paradox in that to become sane (escape the pain of insanity caused by adopting the definition of truth according to others) we do what is usually defined as insane (being separated from reality as a representation of truth), but this is a reality (truth) made by others not us.

This answer is not what you were looking for but I hope by sharing my thoughts you are able to stand outside language (which was created by others) to see how you are being victimized by it in that people are imposing their belief of what is true or not based on what they see.

To be truly free you must become indifferent to the reality of others (what they believe to be true) concerning your "known" truth which only you can experience.

This is a giant leap of faith in the belief of your own mind to tell the difference between what is and is not real, giving you the power to reject what others believe to be
true concerning you.

It is very liberating when you finally arrive.

[Kathryn Martin]

Wow, I can't believe I would be compelled to answer your post of all.

I think your caption asks the wrong question. I think the question would be more properly framed as when do you pretend being a man?

The other question to be answered is the one in another thread here which asked "how do I pass better?' My answer to that is with confidence!

If you behaved like a truck driver throughout your life then, well, chances are that no amount of clothing, make-up, surgery and pantyhose will have any effect on your impression on others. It is not the clothes, it is not the surgery to make you look feminine, it's not your voice that makes you pass. It is the little things, your awareness of your surrounding, your treatment of your personal space, it is in the way you walk, your gesture, your intonation, how you hold your shoulders, the openness of your face, how you inwardly bend to meet the one next to you, your smile. It is not what you wear but what you like in clothing and whether the clothes express you, how you feel that day. It is in the loudness of your voice, the response to a question, your need to convince someone and how you go about it. It is the measure of your survival instincts and how you go about surviving. It is in how you respond to to a question.

It is a fallacy to believe that clothes, mannerisms and presentation makes you a woman. It is how you live your life, how you think about yourself. If you have to develop mannerisms to make yourself a woman then you obviously don't believe you are. Wanting to be a woman is something quite different from being one.

Since the age of nine I am a woman. Before that, it was not an aspect of how I viewed myself, there was no reflection on my gender status per se. I worked very hard to not be one, pretended through many years to be a man. People around me always felt I was not a real man and many expressed this over the years. I have survived as a woman and used strategies that my sex and gender uses to survive. For years I tried to adopt male survival strategies and stood like an observer beside me and shook my head and thought I was a fool. Time and time again I went back to what worked best, because as a male survivalist I seriously sucked.

People unaware of my history never mistake me for a man. Not once since I transitioned. But then again how could they. Those that are aware of my history never call me a man but rather may in a thoughtless manner refer to me with the wrong name of pronoun in the middle of a sentence notwithstanding what they actually experience in my presence. They are usually ashamed when they do, and correct themselves before I have to mention it.

It takes all of this to be confident as a woman, and then you will pass with confidence.

[Persephone]

Kind of sucks though you try to look your best, have your voice together, mannerisms, presentation, and then have someone call you a man.

I feel like it more than "sucks," Nicole. To me it feels like a physical blow. It hurts. And the less frequently it happens, the more each individual wound hurts.

Kinda happened to me today. There is a much older woman who is also a client of my manicurist and she was at the shop today. She's seen me en femme for several years now but she's never forgotten that I was once a man and she still reverts to some of that. I cut her some slack because of her age (the majority of people aren't younger than I am) and try my best to let it go, but down inside it gets to me.

Anyway, on the way home I was thinking about it and I realized that we can only be "ambassadors" for our situation when it does happen. So maybe those instances, despite the pain they cause, are one of the ways that we can help change social perceptions.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[kellycan27]

Wow, I can't believe I would be compelled to answer your post of all.

I think your caption asks the wrong question. I think the question would be more properly framed as when do you pretend being a man?

The other question to be answered is the one in another thread here which asked "how do I pass better?' My answer to that is with confidence!

If you behaved like a truck driver throughout your life then, well, chances are that no amount of clothing, make-up, surgery and pantyhose will have any effect on your impression on others. It is not the clothes, it is not the surgery to make you look feminine, it's not your voice that makes you pass. It is the little things, your awareness of your surrounding, your treatment of your personal space, it is in the way you walk, your gesture, your intonation, how you hold your shoulders, the openness of your face, how you inwardly bend to meet the one next to you, your smile. It is not what you wear but what you like in clothing and whether the clothes express you, how you feel that day. It is in the loudness of your voice, the response to a question, your need to convince someone and how you go about it. It is the measure of your survival instincts and how you go about surviving. It is in how you respond to to a question.

It is a fallacy to believe that clothes, mannerisms and presentation makes you a woman. It is how you live your life, how you think about yourself. If you have to develop mannerisms to make yourself a woman then you obviously don't believe you are. Wanting to be a woman is something quite different from being one.

Since the age of nine I am a woman. Before that, it was not an aspect of how I viewed myself, there was no reflection on my gender status per se. I worked very hard to not be one, pretended through many years to be a man. People around me always felt I was not a real man and many expressed this over the years. I have survived as a woman and used strategies that my sex and gender uses to survive. For years I tried to adopt male survival strategies and stood like an observer beside me and shook my head and thought I was a fool. Time and time again I went back to what worked best, because as a male survivalist I seriously sucked.

People unaware of my history never mistake me for a man. Not once since I transitioned. But then again how could they. Those that are aware of my history never call me a man but rather may in a thoughtless manner refer to me with the wrong name of pronoun in the middle of a sentence notwithstanding what they actually experience in my presence. They are usually ashamed when they do, and correct themselves before I have to mention it.

It takes all of this to be confident as a woman, and then you will pass with confidence.

Give me a break! I am so tired of people saying.. all you need is confidence and attitude in order to pass as a woman. Those things may help YOU in your quest to be out there in the world but they simply are not enough for someone else to believe that they just encountered a woman. The truth of the matter is that it's going to take a combination of all of the things that you mentioned earlier. You have to look the part, dress the part, and speak the part.

[Kathryn Martin]

Hey Kelly, your words in God's ears. When is the last time you identified a genetic woman by her voice, clothes and the way she looks? They are not playing parts, are they? If you play a part then of course what you say may be true, but I would say it won't work.



Give me a break! I am so tired of people saying.. all you need is confidence and attitude in order to pass as a woman. Those things may help YOU in your quest to be out there in the world but they simply are not enough for someone else to believe that they just encountered a woman. The truth of the matter is that it's going to take a combination of all of the things that you mentioned earlier. You have to look the part, dress the part, and speak the part.

[kellycan27]

Hey Kelly, your words in God's ears. When is the last time you identified a genetic woman by her voice, clothes and the way she looks? They are not playing parts, are they? If you play a part then of course what you say may be true, but I would say it won't work.

If you want to construe the word "part" as "acting"... No problem, but I am sure that you know what I mean. Just ask all of those TS women out there who are having major problems being accepted, finding relationships, jobs, housing etc how their self confidence and attitude is working out for them. There are two separate things at work here.. self perception and how others perceive you. Both are going to be major players in "passing"

[Melody Moore]

There are two separate things at work here.. self perception and how others perceive you. Both are going to be major players in "passing"

Oh that "P" word is such a dirty word, but what Kelly says is true.

[Nicole Erin]

Son of a f'ing bitch. I should have known this thread would turn ugly. 5 years here and I guess I still have some things to learn.

Alright Kelly, we normally are cool but there has come the right time, I have to now ask this -

Why is it that in a lot of threads that revolve around "passing" you enjoy stepping in and in subtile ways reminding people that most of us do not pass? It is about as rude as say if I went to the gym and reminded the fat people that they are still overweight as they sweat their asses off on a treadmill. Like say i went up to a 200 pound woman and said, "your ideal weight is about 115, otherwise you are obese, even if you THINK you look good, people will still see you as being fat". Though I am in good shape, I have no right to do that cause i do not know that lady's health status or life story.

For some TS - they do not have the $$$ or someone to pay for their surgeries so "confidence" in their gender presentation may be all they have. I sometimes still get called "sir" by ill-meaning prick customers I deal with at work.

Kelly I am really just curious as to what insecurity issue you are dealing with to feel the need to go around and try to stamp out what confidence some TS might have.

Yes we all know, confidence isn't enough and if they don't truly pass they should curl up and hide since no one will be accepting. Hey, i don't truly "pass" or I would never hear "sir" or "him".

So should i go around the gym I work out at and remind the fat folks that they still are overweight? I mean they are not as slim as I am so they don't deserve to feel good about their bodies now do they?

[Marissa]

Uhh..when I said "I do"..... lol.. gained half my manhood when I said "I want a D"...lol.. don't think that is what you meant but it was a funny thought.. :)

[kellycan27]

Son of a f'ing bitch. I should have known this thread would turn ugly. 5 years here and I guess I still have some things to learn.

Alright Kelly, we normally are cool but there has come the right time, I have to now ask this -

Why is it that in a lot of threads that revolve around "passing" you enjoy stepping in and in subtile ways reminding people that most of us do not pass? It is about as rude as say if I went to the gym and reminded the fat people that they are still overweight as they sweat their asses off on a treadmill. Like say i went up to a 200 pound woman and said, "your ideal weight is about 115, otherwise you are obese, even if you THINK you look good, people will still see you as being fat". Though I am in good shape, I have no right to do that cause i do not know that lady's health status or life story.

For some TS - they do not have the $$$ or someone to pay for their surgeries so "confidence" in their gender presentation may be all they have. I sometimes still get called "sir" by ill-meaning prick customers I deal with at work.

Kelly I am really just curious as to what insecurity issue you are dealing with to feel the need to go around and try to stamp out what confidence some TS might have.

Yes we all know, confidence isn't enough and if they don't truly pass they should curl up and hide since no one will be accepting. Hey, i don't truly "pass" or I would never hear "sir" or "him".

So should i go around the gym I work out at and remind the fat folks that they still are overweight? I mean they are not as slim as I am so they don't deserve to feel good about their bodies now do they?

I am really glad you asked these questions Erin. If you look back at these passing threads I think that you will see that the only thing I ever say in them is that "it takes more than self confidence and attitude" to pass. It irritates me to no end to see someone nonchalantly say all you need is SC and A. As I mentioned in an earlier post.. if this is true why are there so many TS girls out there trying to live their lives who are alone, can't get a decent job, can't get into a relationship, get discriminated against when trying to find housing, and aren't accepted as women etc etc. I am sorry that you are offended, but to me this little "fantasy" is a slap in the face to those who are out there day after day trying to survive and who know that this is simply not true.

"So should i go around the gym I work out at and remind the fat folks that they still are overweight? I mean they are not as slim as I am so they don't deserve to feel good about their bodies now do they"?

If you were in the position to tell people would you go around the gym and tell them that they don't need to lose weight? Would you tell them that they could be healthy even with the extra weight?
Umm When have I ever been subtle? I try and be honest, and fair, and look at both sides of a story.
Tell ya what.. Tell me I am wrong and I will gladly retract every one of my posts from this thread.

Kel

[Serana]

Ha ha, nice thread.

For me, I was fortunate to 'pass' very early on. Things like working on my voice, the way I walked and such were my main priority. But then I met my friends at uni, and tbh, even they agree I'm incredibly tomboy-ish over anything else. It makes it an interesting thing to see it from, as I still (very happily) carry around a lot of boyish qualities to certain parts of my life.

When do we stop being seen as male? Well that's down to personal perception, and the personal motivation we have to follow our goals. As many have said, voice is important, as it's one of the first things that those people who say "sir" or "'mam" will learn of you, and that will define their perception. We stop -being- men when we choose to do so, when we decide we no longer see ourselves as men. (Which is getting a raised eyebrow from me, just sounds weird XD)

I think I'd say passing well is down to a lot of different levels in personal attitude towards yourself, and life in general. Though, (and for as bitchy as this sounds, it's true) trans women feel they have to go out in dresses/skirts all the time, and sooometimes it's what we wear that makes it the most painfully obvious. After a few years? Yes, much easier, before then? Not so easy I feel. XD This is somewhat coming from experience, I only ever wear jeans and a t-shirt~!

And for as much as some contest it, having some confidence in yourself is what makes one of the biggest differences of all. Have the confidence in yourself that you sound fine, and look fine, and then things will go from there. Don't try to be the 'perfect woman', just try to be yourselves, as overdoing it can be very bad. Even I fell foul to that once. D:

Maybe I'm wrong for saying this, but Kelly does prove a lot of good points too. Even I agree there's lots more to it than just SC and A, and a lot of work is necessary.
For as much as people may not like what Kelly says, she sounds another realist that actually makes some really important points. (Even if sometimes not in the best possible way)

Seri-chan~

Oh, and, Nicole. I think the problem here is, if people here are going to start the thread, then they should be expecting all kinds of comments and being called from b*tch to dog. If there have been a multitude of iterations to this kind of thread, then itsn't that everyone elses problems also? It seems less a ranting space and more a space to learn, as far as I was aware.

[noeleena]

Hi,
As i was thinking about this .

I was going to say some of us have a hard time being a part of socity Haveing real friends being part of groups working with others no matter what trade or vocation we have or well just being around people .

Now this when do you stop being a man, Are we talking about one who is a real man & all that it pertains to , one who is pretending to be one tho does not see them selfs as one. one who is both male / female .

Well this is determined by your body & its internal parts orgins, then the brain its size how your wired, your bone structure .
that cant be changed its allready programed . facial features some can be changed & theres a few other details ,

Now remember going back many 100's of years many women had the same in proportion, & many looked like men . in to days ideal world many men do have finer looks some women dont they still look like male .
Iv been told this from my women friends not all of us look like women i dont & never will yet im born intersexed = both male / female for get the blend in pass be like look like .

Can you just accept your self i know some wont agree with me ever if it was about only you have to look like a woman to be accepted ,

then why oh why do i with in our groups am i accepted as a ....normal ....woman, of cause its because.
i live in a county that accepts is open & understands that those of us who are different have no probs entering in to socity okay lets look at Austraila 1800 miles away. im accepted there i dont live there im still accepted in to groups the many people i talk with not just once or now & again i mean lots .

What the hell is the difference i can do it be accepted go any where so maybe theres something about myself that works .

Maybe i have the ability to talk to 100's of people in meetings maybe i have the confidence confident in who i am have selfworth am a very strong woman in my own right. & just be myself dispite my looks or lack of .I did put a pic of Jos & myself some where in the pic files you look at that all youll see is a bloody male my avatar pic is it much different dought it iv not changed that much in 20 odd years

Okay my maleness is a part of who i am that will never go away. i dont have an issue with that, it is a part of my makeup & more to the point with out that i would not be here, i embraced the all of myself not just my female side though mine is more than just that

As a human we can be accepted , some times we need to look at our self with some one else's perspective who is close to us iv done this many times , or some one who does not know us as close .

You see we only see what we think we see in the mirror others see beyond the mirror they see the real part. in action do we , no because we are part of the action so we cant see from afar.

Heres a little detail we come in here talk about whats wrong with our selfs get feed back & so on over & over again & again yet ......are we really liveing ..... in the real world with real people day by day ,

You know hands on real life person to person. face to face i do every day , you know its the doing that will help you over come the issues , of cause one or two may say something ...so...i get the odd one or two who wont talk to me wow thats an eye opener iv had that, tough. they dont wont to be part of my life, oh well they miss out .

...noeleena...

[LisaMallon]

In many ways I never was a 'man'. I simulated being a 'man'. I learned how to walk, talk, act like one. Fooled many people for a long time, even fooled myself at times.

My real challenge (which is personal, others have other challenges of course) is to unlearn all those ways of acting and presenting.

Basically how to present naturally. But having been at this for so long, what is natural? I don't want to 'simulate' being a woman, I just want to be naturally myself.

So that is why I use the term 'unlearning'. I have to unlearn all that acting.

[Jeanna]

This thread is giving me brain damage!

[Kathryn Martin]

Kelly, it took me until your response to Erin to understand where you are coming from. I did not mean to imply that clothes and behavior are not part of a successful transition.

What I meant to say is that no amount of clothes and mannerisms and presentation make you a woman. If you, even a little bit, believe that you need to disguise to be accepted as a woman then obviously you have something to disguise. And people, especially women notice that.

If you presentation is flawless for instance, your voice is the right pitch, but your word choices, and assertiveness in conversation is clearly male, then you will not pass. But if you wear overalls and steel toed boots and your voice still has resonance but your word choices and and conversation style is clearly female, then you will.

For me, my appearance is of great importance as it is for most self respecting women. But this does not come from a place of disguise or pretend but rather from who I am as a person.

And for the record, I find that too many transsexuals don't know how to dress, don't know how to put make-up on, can't put together an outfit and wear ill fitting clothes, don't know what age appropriate means, never learn to walk in heels, and are generally unattractive (and not because they are but because they put no effort into it) - in my view because they have no confidence and often no self respect. They have trouble keeping their elbows by their side, use 3/4 of the couch when they sit on it, slouch, walk with their shoulders forward and their eyes fixed on the floor before them in a wide gait, bear hug people, gesture like the world belongs to them. And that is just a few of them.

I am not discounting anything you say, Kelly, but where it starts is your confidence and self respect.


I am really glad you asked these questions Erin. If you look back at these passing threads I think that you will see that the only thing I ever say in them is that "it takes more than self confidence and attitude" to pass. It irritates me to no end to see someone nonchalantly say all you need is SC and A. As I mentioned in an earlier post.. if this is true why are there so many TS girls out there trying to live their lives who are alone, can't get a decent job, can't get into a relationship, get discriminated against when trying to find housing, and aren't accepted as women etc etc. I am sorry that you are offended, but to me this little "fantasy" is a slap in the face to those who are out there day after day trying to survive and who know that this is simply not true.

"So should i go around the gym I work out at and remind the fat folks that they still are overweight? I mean they are not as slim as I am so they don't deserve to feel good about their bodies now do they"?

If you were in the position to tell people would you go around the gym and tell them that they don't need to lose weight? Would you tell them that they could be healthy even with the extra weight?
Umm When have I ever been subtle? I try and be honest, and fair, and look at both sides of a story.
Tell ya what.. Tell me I am wrong and I will gladly retract every one of my posts from this thread.

Kel

[Nicole Erin]

OK Kathryn or kelly (or whoever) - What of the ones who do all that stuff with looks, SC, attitude, and mannerisms yet still get detected? Let us face it - some just cannot pass even with FFS or whatever. Maybe these same ones also face all the problems Kelly listed. So do they need to come to this stupid forum to be reminded by their own "community" of their inability to "pass"?

Or my favorite breeds of TS - the ones who get FFS and end up looking like clowns. (particularly a problem with drag queens)
One thing I have seen countless times - they have it well together it seems but then their voices are giveaways.

I myself don't know how well I "pass". I have gotten feedback both ways. Some insecure men have called me "sir" and some men have asked me out (though I am never interested). Women seldom give me a hard time. Well except for the ones who weigh probably twice what I do. I care not what they think. I do know I have had more negative feedback from the tranny community than from the straight folks.

So then if someone doesn't pass yet (or maybe ever) are they suppose to just ditch the dream that there might be hope?

[Aprilrain]

OK Kathryn or kelly (or whoever)

So then if someone doesn't pass yet (or maybe ever) are they suppose to just ditch the dream that there might be hope?

If it's a "dream" you might want to rethink transition.

The reality is, in the real world we get gendered based on what we look like. People are so good at this that they see right through clothes, actually they look at your face, especially from the side when you're not looking at them, and see a male or female. This is why FFS is wickedly effective, I have yet to see someone, who went to a reputable DR, look like a clown. Usually if they do it is because they are addicted to surgery and have had more than they need. I was just talking to a friend who has had FFS, BA, and SRS and she said of all of them FFS made her the happiest and changed her life the most. I can say that since i have healed from my facial surgery all the "sirs" and "are you a man" questions have stopped, my demeanor is the same and like most women my age I rarely wear makeup.

[Badtranny]

If it's a "dream" you might want to rethink transition..

That's not fair April. Nicole is a gutsy chick and she lives her life out loud under circumstances that are much more hostile than my own. (I don't mean hostile as in violent, I mean as in not conducive to an easy transition)

Personally I didn't plan to go full time and change my name until after my FFS, mainly because I didn't have the "balls" that Nicole has. As it turned out, FFS was not the golden key that I thought it was. It's a huge help, but I still have some confidence issues due mainly to my size and my hairline which will take a year yet to fill in. Things are really great for the most part but I have had the advantage of an orchi, boobs, and FFS that girls like Nicole have yet to enjoy. She went full time and goes to battle every day as a TS woman in a job she hates and that my friends is ALL confidence. Interestingly, Kelly did the same thing. They're at odds in this thread but based on conversations and history with both of them, I can say fairly confidently that they actually agree on this issue more than not. Kelly may be pretty now but that's what happens when you have the courage to transition at 20. After 10+ years of HRT, you tend to start looking feminine. Throw in the BA and SRS and it's easy to forget that she had a rough transition just like the rest of us. She just powered through it, and that my friends is ALL confidence.

It's true that the old saw about believing you're a woman and owning it will be all you need to pass is just plain old silliness disguised as bad advice. On the other hand, if you're just pretending or acting like a woman, then you're going to have problems passing no matter how good you look. I liken it to my experience trying to pass as a man. Growing up, I was always marginalized by the guys. I would always get picked last (even though I was a decent athlete) I would always get picked on, I was always being called a sissy or a fag and it's not because of how I looked. I came equipped from the factory with everything I would need to pass as a man except for one little thing; the masculinity. I tried so hard to fit in and be one of them but it was not to be. As I got older I got better at it, but there was always something that wasn't quite right about me. Some people assumed I was gay even though I didn't act gay. I was probably very similar to a trans man early in his transition. Hmmmm, something not right about that guy, but I didn't have the "tells" of a trans man so people read me as a guy, ...but still.

So there I was, a total dude but I didn't FEEL like a dude. My mannerisms and speech patterns were mostly dude-ish because of a lifetime of conditioning but still, it wasn't in my heart. Was I "acting" like a man? Yes. I had developed elaborate methods of guarding my presentation over the years, lest anybody notice that I wasn't a normal masculine dude. I was literally pretending and actively so for a good portion of my day. This is the truth all the way up to the day I decided to transition. Does that sound like a man who is confident in his masculinity. I looked EXACTLY like a man in every respect, yet I did not feel comfortable about passing as one. I always felt like I had something to prove. Just being a man wasn't enough. I had to show it somehow.

Today, I am legally a woman and I feel 100% comfortable about that. People who have known me still call me by my old name, they still make the pronoun mistakes but I don't mind one little bit. I relish it because it reminds me that I am no longer what I was. People who didn't know me mostly accept me as a woman. If they recognize my "condition" they sometimes acknowledge it but at least they don't treat me like a man. I would honestly rather be an obvious transsexual woman than a man anyway. I do not pass every time, but it's a small price to pay to no longer be forced to pretend. That's the key isn't it? Pretending? I no longer pretend or "act" like anything. I made a promise to myself that I would live an authentic life forevermore and that means no more lies, no more secrets, and no more hiding. Do I feel like a woman? I really have no idea what a woman feels like. I imagine they feel somewhat like I do, but who knows. Do I act like a woman? Absolutely not. I have a lot of work left to do on my "presentation" but that's not about pretending, that's about improving my posture, losing weight, growing hair, improving my wardrobe, improving makeup skills, etc. I would likely be doing those same things if I had been born a woman, except I would have done them throughout out my life instead of in the span of a few years. I do not "act" like anything. I am the same person minus the pretending to be a guy part, basically I'm free.

When did I stop being a man? I don't think I ever got a chance to start. ;-)

[kellycan27]

Nicole... Nobody ever said that anyone should just ditch the dream, nor did they say that anyone who doesn't pass should hide away. I for one am just saying that it takes more than SC and A to make that person on the other side of the counter see a woman. Confidence and attitude are super important no doubt, but in and of themselves aren't going to do it.
.................................................. .................................................. ................................................

People like to get jinky with words.. They can take the word "act" for example. Some people take it as acting out a role, but if you look at the definition it says "to do something". For instance when you are driving your car.. you are in the act of driving, you're not pretending to drive your car. The "role" one plays in life is not "acting" or "pretending" either... it's what you do in life.... Just saying.

[Nigella]

I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but I have not had, nor intend to have, FFS, voice coaching, BA or anything else that would change my physical appearance with the exception of HT.

Personally I do not care how I am percieved, I only need to pass for one, that one is me. I do that by being confident and self assured in who and what I am. Some on here will say I am not TS, so what, that is their opinion, but they don't know me, being a woman is an individual thing, if being referred to in anyway, shape or form other than female bothers you, then NO you are not a woman, simply because you have let others know it bothers you.

[Aprilrain]

That's not fair April. Nicole is a gutsy chick and she lives her life out loud under circumstances that are much more hostile than my own. (I don't mean hostile as in violent, I mean as in not conducive to an easy transition)

By "dream" I mean something pleasant or desirable. Being TS for me is neither, I make the most of a bad situation. I don't know about anyone else but I didn't grow up saying "Gee i sure would like to be a transsexual!" nor did I "dream" of a day when I could transition, I still can't imagine "wanting" to transition. I did it cause I had to.

[Kathryn Martin]

I think we are saying the same thing except starting from different sides of the issue.

So what happened to: When did you stop to be a man? I vaguely remember that was the question.


Nicole... Nobody ever said that anyone should just ditch the dream, nor did they say that anyone who doesn't pass should hide away. I for one am just saying that it takes more than SC and A to make that person on the other side of the counter see a woman. Confidence and attitude are super important no doubt, but in and of themselves aren't going to do it.
.................................................. .................................................. ................................................

People like to get jinky with words.. They can take the word "act" for example. Some people take it as acting out a role, but if you look at the definition it says "to do something". For instance when you are driving your car.. you are in the act of driving, you're not pretending to drive your car. The "role" one plays in life is not "acting" or "pretending" either... it's what you do in life.... Just saying.

[Rachel Smith]

I think this is a great thread and a wonderful yet lively discussion. Below are some of the things that hit home with me. Forgive me for not putting it in my own words but honestly I couldn't have said it any better. Especially the part about always being picked last for atheletics though above average in most sports. The only time I got picked first was if I started the team, LOL :heehee:

Originally posted by Kathryn Martin


People around me always felt I was not a real man and many expressed this over the years. I have survived as a woman and used strategies that my sex and gender uses to survive. For years I tried to adopt male survival strategies and stood like an observer beside me and shook my head and thought I was a fool. Time and time again I went back to what worked best, because as a male survivalist I seriously sucked.

Orginally posted by Melissa (Badtranny) Hobbes


Growing up, I was always marginalized by the guys. I would always get picked last (even though I was a decent athlete) I would always get picked on, I was always being called a sissy or a fag and it's not because of how I looked. I came equipped from the factory with everything I would need to pass as a man except for one little thing; the masculinity. I tried so hard to fit in and be one of them but it was not to be. As I got older I got better at it, but there was always something that wasn't quite right about me. Some people assumed I was gay even though I didn't act gay. I was probably very similar to a trans man early in his transition. Hmmmm, something not right about that guy, but I didn't have the "tells" of a trans man so people read me as a guy, ...but still.

So there I was, a total dude but I didn't FEEL like a dude. My mannerisms and speech patterns were mostly dude-ish because of a lifetime of conditioning but still, it wasn't in my heart. Was I "acting" like a man? Yes. I had developed elaborate methods of guarding my presentation over the years, lest anybody notice that I wasn't a normal masculine dude. I was literally pretending and actively so for a good portion of my day. This is the truth all the way up to the day I decided to transition. Does that sound like a man who is confident in his masculinity. I looked EXACTLY like a man in every respect, yet I did not feel comfortable about passing as one. I always felt like I had something to prove. Just being a man wasn't enough. I had to show it somehow.



When did I stop being a man? I don't think I ever got a chance to start. ;-)

Thanks y'all
Rachel

[Nicole Erin]

So yeah with the having people say you are not a "real" man, I got that plenty also. Well that and "fag" quite a bit growing up. Marginalized by the guys - I can relate
Funny though once you realize who you really are and start living the part, then some people all the sudden want to say, "but you are a man".
It is like people always want to try denying you of what you are.