Neither male nor female - Intergender

[Byllie]

Given I'm a biological male, who enjoys wearing feminine clothing (note, I did NOT say women's clothing), I figured this area would be the best place to post my thoughts.

I do enjoy wearing feminine items, as well as masculine items, together. Genderwise, I see myself as neither male nor female. Therefore, to say my wearing feminine items is crossdressing seems, to me, to be a misnomer. Crossdressing means one wears clothing counter to their gender. Given I see myself as a gender mix, my appropriate attire should also be a mix.

And there's the rub. I do not wish to become a woman as I do not see myself as solely female. I also do not wish to pretend to be a woman, as that does not match who I am. I simply wish to be me, and associate with others who share my belief that each of us is part male and part female, and that this is a gender continuum and not a bipolar classification.

So, until crossdressers.com decides to create a space for those like me, I'll simply continue to hang out in this area. And please, don't get me started about names such as genderqueer. <grin>

[STACY B]

Yea me to ,,,I am Trans Lite by the way,,, We are all different that what makes us Special ,,, Welcome to the club . Thats the Beauty of this Place ? You can be all you can be ,,Or all you want to be ,, Or what ever you want to be at anytime you want ,,So just pick ya a story an jump in ,,I do ,,,LOL,,,

[Byllie]

Thanks, Stacy, I needed that. Sometimes I feel so out of it all. I used to attend a crossdressers group, but felt out of place because dressing fully as a woman did not work for me. I have a beard, and they teased me about it. Did I make them question their own identities? If I did, then good for me!

[JohnH]

Here is my two cents worth:

I consider myself to be both masculine and feminine. On one hand I am on M2F HRT and developing a feminine figure. Yet I have a voice that is a deep basso profundo that I intend to retain for speaking and singing. So you are not the only person that is intergendered.

Added section: As you can see I have retained my masculine name and prefer to be referred with masculine pronouns, and I still think of myself as a man.

John

[JamieRog]

Thank you! I thought I was weird even among the strange for not feeling quite the same about myself. I went to a meeting of CDs and TG and TS folks and thought I just felt out of place because I was the youngest. Then I realized I felt out of place because my 'gender style' wasn't the same as any of theirs. I was starting to feel weird for not having any real desire to change my name or sex.

[Byllie]

In the best of all worlds, we could express ourselves, via clothing, makeup, behavior, any way we wished, as long as it did not hurt anyone. But that's not the world we live in. As a society, we tend to favor the either/or model, and apply it to everything we experience. Still, that's not reality. Every person is a unique blend, a single point on a tapestry that connects us all. No one has the right to tear that fabric; no one.

It amazes me, sometimes, how those who wish to be excepted - gay, lesbian, bisexual, TG, TS, CD - are also so quick to compartmentalize who each person is, or rather who they THINK everyone else should be. If we could all learn to accept each other AS IS, think of how different the world might be.

[Tracii G]

Yep TG light here too like Stacy says.
I mix clothing everyday so I'm intergendered.

[sissystephanie]

Each of us was born with a certain gender. That is a fact that cannot be disputed, unless you were born with both genders. That does happen, but is very rare. If you were born a male and wear feminine clothes, you are a crossdresser!! You can call yourself what ever you like, but you are still a crossdresser. I am a male, and I definitely am also a crossdresser. I do not wear makeup or a wig (I am almost bald), but I do wear feminine clothes out in public almost every day. And I never have had any problems with doing that, even though I go everywhere dressed like that!

I do accept people AS IS, unless a particular person really offends me! And that is really hard to do!

Byllie, you are a crossdresser, whether you call yourself that or not! But I still like you and hope to hear more from you!!

[Tracii G]

I accept everyone as they are, just some I choose not to be around because of their personality.

[max]

Sissystephanie you are confusing sex and gender

[NathalieX66]

Intergendered? Dual-gendered? Bi-gender? .....that's me in a nutshell. :)
I will not kill off one for the sake of the other. I am both genders.
Crossdressing for thrill means nothing to me. I play it on both sides of the gender spectrum. It is me. The person you see in the flesh is what you get.
I'll be willing to do HRT, but not have any surgery.

[Byllie]

Each of us was born with a certain gender. That is a fact that cannot be disputed ...

Yes, we were each born with a gender AND a sex, both of which are fluid and located on a continuum.


Sissystephanie you are confusing sex and gender
Thank you for the deft reply!

[Tracii G]

My question why do you have to fit anywhere? You are saying you don't fit in anywhere so you will stay in this area.What does that mean exactly?
Trying to take TG-ism to an esoteric level is pointless.There are way too may nooks and crannies in the whole spectrum.
I am me and whatever that is and I'm in a happy place.
I tend to think people that say they just don't fit in anywhere are using that as a reason to blame the world for their problems or shortcomings.
Life is what you make it and if you want to feel like you don't belong then its your fault.
I'm weird,quirky,different but I have lots of friends.Why? Because I get out and mingle with the masses.

[katie_barns]

Can I choose all the above. That way I will fit in no matter what I am. I get so confused when things get philosophical.

[Diversity]

I consider myself a crossdresser, as I wear femine clothing. Nothing says one can't combine both masculine and feminine clothing - in fact women do it all the time! In my definition, I figured I am a crossdresser merely because I 'cross the dressing boundaries' and don feminine apparel from time to time (as often as I can) and in the manner that I wish.
I don't feel I am 'intergender', however, as I am a male and even when I am dressed as a female, I still act like a male. I just flat-out enjoy wearing women's clothing! It's fun, it's different, and it is so diverse (hence my name). No matter what, Byllie, just enjoy yourself as you are and enjoy the journey. At least all of us in this forum have the courage to enjoy our lives, as we feel we want to. This is a great forum and one which is really open to and accepting of all types of diversity which is not harmful to others.
Glad you joined!
Di

[wilt575]

I consider myself a crossdresser, as I wear femine clothing. Nothing says one can't combine both masculine and feminine clothing - in fact women do it all the time! In my definition, I figured I am a crossdresser merely because I 'cross the dressing boundaries' and don feminine apparel from time to time (as often as I can) and in the manner that I wish.
I don't feel I am 'intergender', however, as I am a male and even when I am dressed as a female, I still act like a male. I just flat-out enjoy wearing women's clothing! It's fun, it's different, and it is so diverse (hence my name). No matter what, Byllie, just enjoy yourself as you are and enjoy the journey. At least all of us in this forum have the courage to enjoy our lives, as we feel we want to. This is a great forum and one which is really open to and accepting of all types of diversity which is not harmful to others.
Glad you joined!
Di

I'm kind of the same I combine clothing ouite often but there are times when I'm one or the and feel comfortable dressed as female or male, don't know why, but have strong desire usually second or third week in month to dress and just act more female than other times like an obsession or some thing no problem still accepted as me.

[Beverley Sims]

That means that if I like wearing ant costumes I must be a crossant? :)

[Tracii G]

So, until crossdressers.com decides to create a space for those like me, I'll simply continue to hang out in this area. And please, don't get me started about names such as genderqueer. <grin>[/QUOTE]

See here is that mindset I don't get. Demanding CD.com make a special place for him because he is more different that anyone else here.
You need to stop over thinking what you are.You are a cross dresser plain and simple just a different form of it.
I think I'm the same as you for the most part but I don't take myself that seriously.

[bridget thronton]

I have a medical librarian friend who taught me the gender/sex space is continuous over about 16 dimensions - she has very convincing observations and even then your position is likely go float

[max]

Tracii G, what is it that makes all the sections we have legitimate but one for people in the middle like Byllie illegitimate?

[Jolene Robertson]

I think all of us on here mix most of the time. I know I do and have for years. I have worn a wig full time for 30 years and wear Ladies jeans or shorts and under dress everyday. About the only thing I don't wear out is a dress or skirt and bra. We don't need to try and put everyone in a neat little box, if we do then we'll all be in a box alone.

Jolene

[noeleena]

Hi,

Some of us are intersexed so its about both male / female for some of us is it just about one or the other depends on a number of issues & theres many none are straight forward very mixed & very different.

How we live our life will depend on how we ....need .... to . i dont come as a dresser or trans nore do many of my intersex friends, how we are percived is another matter,

My friends & thats many many friends just accept im a woman whos different , i did not go into all the intersex talk as all that does is confuse people & they dont need that. too involved any way. those who need to know are given the info.
& i just leave it there,

& by the way its not as rare as some think , its just not a hot topic thats all. unless your one with in one of our groups & its only for intersex people .

How you need to live is what you must be happy with if not its no life at all find it live it & enjoy what you have,

...noeleena...

[Marlana]

Wow! This seems to be spiraling into an argument. I ( and By that I mean just me) think that if you wear a bra/no bra, panties/boxers, hose/no hose, blouse/shirt, skirt/slacks/pants, heels,flats/shoes,boots inter-mixed, then you're a crossdresser. GG's are crossdressers at one time or another. Tell me not one of you have ever worn a mans piece of clothing at one time or another. If Byllie wants to underdress, then that does constitute being a crossdresser. So what if theres a beard involved, he/she doesn't want to be passing as a woman. Crossdresser/intergender whatever IMHO!

[bobbimo]

This is amazing. I was laying in bed this morning thinking about "cross dressing". Its not just wearing the clothes, since we, or at least I (CD'S) go for the whole appearance. Breast forms, make up, shaving. all the stuff that enhances the clothes part. Some days I feel lazy and just put on panties and a sun dress. But just a few trips past a mirror and I am doing my eyes, lipstick, fix my hair, earrings. and then the bra etc. and I am Bobbi.
I just cant wear a dress and see a bearded Bob looking back from the mirror.
So I hear ya Byllie, and know where your coming from, But for me, its letting the woman within come out.

[linda allen]

Each of us was born with a certain gender. That is a fact that cannot be disputed, unless you were born with both genders. That does happen, but is very rare. If you were born a male and wear feminine clothes, you are a crossdresser!! You can call yourself what ever you like, but you are still a crossdresser.

That's telling it like it is. The only exeption would be for someone who has become a female through surgery and hormone replacement. even in that case, your DNA, bone structure, and some internal organs would still be male.

For many years, I didn't consider myself a "crossdresser", just a man who crossdressed occasionally (when I had the chance). In the last several months, since coming out to my wife, I am now proud to call myself a crossdresser. :D

[linda allen]

I have a medical librarian friend who taught me the gender/sex space is continuous over about 16 dimensions - she has very convincing observations and even then your position is likely go float

Perhaps, but when the police arrest you, you will be listed as male or female. One or the other. Just like the day you were born and the day you die.

[kelliT]

Thank you Byllie for starting this thread. I have been re-evaluating everything and trying to come to some term of understanding, of who I am.

I have crossdressed for many years, fully. But the last year as my wife found out, has been a bigger change. I like my guy mode, my male side and my feminine side also.
My wife is not ready to see me fully so she has been supportive of little things, buying me things feminine to wear. This was a struggle at first as I don't like dressing unless it's full on Kelli.
But little by little I am introducing things into my wardrobe that I am just now feeling comfortable wearing on a permanent basis. I am now enjoying the little things that make me unique.
All a process forever evolving. :)

[sissystephanie]

Sissystephanie you are confusing sex and gender

Max, I wasn't confusing anything. I have been a crossdresser for close to 70 years, and have studied crossdressing for a great deal of that time. The facts that I stated are well known. You are born with one sex (Usually!) and unless you have surgery, you will always be that sex. Even if you take female hormones, unless you have the surgery, you are still a male!

[Marleena]

Boy if they added new sections for what everybody thinks they might be it would sure get confusing.:D We've heard quite a few new labels in the last little while.

We are all transgendered right? lol.

[kimdl93]

In some respects, each of us is unique. Most of us are biologically male, a few are genuinely intersexed. I certainly don't believe that this site isn't divided by some kind of bipolar classification. There is clearly a wide degree of variation among members in terms of our degree of identification with male and female. Its fair to say that most of us feel that we feel female to a degree, but live a significant portion of our lives as males. We include occassional CDrs, fetish CDrs, people like me who live as women most of the time, and a large group who are following a middle path. And there are many, like you, who prefer a blending of gender and clothing.

[natacsha]

Hi Byllie Ummm...confused? Probably not but then why would the name crossdressers.com even come to mind if you don't cross dress your genders? I myself feel as though I am actually cding when my male clothes are on but that means nothing. Also, im officially transgendered which also means nothing. Like Nathalie says, I am me. I identify as female nearly every second of the day but I find happiness in not taking to one label or the other. As we all are different in our own unique way, there would be literally a section for each of us if cd.com decided to divide all colors ounder this rainbow.... And since no two of us are alike, I would be posting threads to myself about how crossed I feel when I look down and see something I feel doesn't belong. Then my male side would reply to just suck it up and accept it....or do something about it. I would have a field day if I never grew another hair on my body again! having any facial hair really gets in the way of my meditation....dark, stringy follicles of dead cells protruding through every pour trying to disrupt my chi flow. Ugh!! Lol

[Sarah-Ann]

TG Lite, Intergender, Transgeder, Transsexual, Gay, Bisexual, Lesbian, Straight, WHATEVER!!! I personally do not choose to use labels. Often times we must label ourselves so others might get an idea of who we are, or what we do, but I wish this were a world where we could simply toss the labels in the garbage, and be ourselves. I see nothing wrong with anyone from a person wearing " mixed gender" clothing, to a person completely cross dressing, to a person who has undergone SRS, and anything in between. We are all simply us, and trying to be the person we know we should be, damn what others think, and damn what labels people label us as. You are all wonderful people, with or without your cute labels :)

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Byllie, This is just a big mixing pot of special people.

[Byllie]

My question why do you have to fit anywhere? You are saying you don't fit in anywhere so you will stay in this area.What does that mean exactly? <snip>
It means that on crossdressers.com there is no specific section for those who are intergender, that's all.

[Byllie]

CD.com has sections for crossdressers, transsexuals, MTF, and FTM, so this site already does recognize that different subgroups have specific issues and needs.

[Byllie]

<snip>But for me, its letting the woman within come out.
For me, there is no woman inside. There's just me, and all I want to do is let THAT person out. I only adopted the Byllie to fit in on this site. My real name is Bill, and perhaps it's time I changed my username to such. I am not two people in one. I am just one person.

[Byllie]

A thought: If it is true that sex and gender each form a continuum, and not bipolar categories, then the term crossdresser does not seem logical. To "cross" means that there is a boundary, a separation between the ends, with nothing in the middle. Comments?

[TeresaL]

I was born anatomically male, but have a lot of neurological female brainwaves shooting through my head that probably got crossed in birth that makes me want to achieve some level of femininity along the sliding transgender scale. I've come to the conclusion that I am a percentile of part male and part female, brainwise, and am preferring the female, which once I figure out the percentages, can I have a label please?

[Babeba]

Byllie,

There are a lot of Members who seem to feel they do not want to be fully one or the other gender. There are male members who want to wear male skirts and dresses. There are a heck of a lot of self-identities out there. That is totally okay.

Having said that, all of the boards open to you are 'for' you. You are welcome to post anywhere you see fit. :hugs:

[Annette Todd]

A thought: If it is true that sex and gender each form a continuum, and not bipolar categories, then the term crossdresser does not seem logical. To "cross" means that there is a boundary, a separation between the ends, with nothing in the middle. Comments?

Bill, It sounds as though you are determined to criticize everyone. Be yourself and let me be who I want to be. That is what it's all about. How you wish to view and interact with the world is your business. Have fun!
If you want to contribute without criticizing, Great! if not, then, you may never be happy unless you're trying to force someone to believe as you do. That's called biggotry.

[linda allen]

I personally do not choose to use labels. Often times we must label ourselves so others might get an idea of who we are, or what we do, but I wish this were a world where we could simply toss the labels in the garbage, and be ourselves.

You use labels, it's part of the human thought process. We label fruit so we can tell an apple from an orange or banana. We label streets so people can find our houses. And we label people. Male, female, black, white, tall, short, thin, fat, etc. We label animals so w know a dog from a cat, from a cow, from a snake, etc. It's part of our language and part of our thought process.

Now an object or a human can have more than one label and if you're talking about behavior, the label can change at times, but there will always be labels.

[Jennifer W]

Let's see. I'm a biological male. True. I like feminine clothes. True. Blend feminine/masculine clothes every day. True. I don't wish to become a woman. True. I don't pretend to be a woman. True. I am me. True. So, I'm a girly man? Ok. I love my feminine side as much as my masculine side. I'm a girly man and I love myself. My wife loves me. Label not required. I'm going to continue being here amongst friends and wearing whatever I choose. I'm happy being me. :-)

[Julia Stevens]

I have no idea how to describe my gender. I called myself a crossdresser when I joined the forum, but I think it is a convenient term which doesn't fully describe what is going on for me. I don't really feel like any term really describes it, but I suppose we have to have labels of some kind, even is they are inadequate, otherwise we wouldn't have a name for the forum for example!

[EllieOPKS]

This post kinda reminds me of the new thinking is schools and rec sports. EVERYBODY gets a medal win or lose , that way everybody is happy. There may be labels that have not been created yet, but not many. As Brandy said, that part of any language.

Your original quote: "Genderwise, I see myself as neither male nor female". In nature, you would be an earthworm. Neither male nor female. IF you tell people you are a true earthworm, they should get it immediately. There's a label for you.

Please don't thank me for solving this dilemma.

[linda allen]

Sitting, waiting for my wife's haircut to be finished, I picked up a magazine and there was an article about a female runner from India who had been stripped of her medals and forced out of competition because it was determined that she was not "female enough".

I don't remember all the details, but in a sidebar, it was stated that one person out of every thousand has some sort of sexual abnomalty. Things like extra chromosomes, internal organs that don't match external organs, etc. Even so, these people are going to have to be "male" or "female" to the government and the rest of society.

For the other 999 of us, call yourself whatever you want to, bot society will hang a label on you. When you fill out a form, you will have to check "M" or "F". If you don't someone will check it for you.

[Kaz]

I have no idea how to describe my gender. I called myself a crossdresser when I joined the forum, but I think it is a convenient term which doesn't fully describe what is going on for me. I don't really feel like any term really describes it, but I suppose we have to have labels of some kind, even is they are inadequate, otherwise we wouldn't have a name for the forum for example!

This place has got quite heated for no real reason other than labels. So here is my 'contribution'... I am a genetic male. I have fully functional male 'bits', have had lots of girlfriends, and am married with three grown up daughters. I have lived most of life in male mode and have various careers. I have also played guitar in blues, rock and jazz-rock bands since I was 14 - in male mode. But when I was very young (pre-puberty) I wanted to change into a girl... when it became obvious that I was developing as a guy I was unhappy but accepted it. But I have always liked dressing in feminine things. My sex is male. But as I have aged and learned more about myself, I have accepted that it isn't just about the clothes... I actually identify with feminine things and have what I call a feminine 'side' and this is becoming more important to me.

Do I want to become a 'woman' full time - no.. it would complicate my life more than help and I like the things I do in male mode. I accept that for others this is more important for them, Would I choose the same path if I started all over again in this internet era... who knows... possibly, possibly not.

The thing is... I like just being me... being between the genders but able to flex either way, and in my experience of this forum that IS where most of us are... gender 'bending' if you like...:)

Now, as to earthworms... they have the reproductive organs of both sexes. Most of us don't... the concept of gender in today's world is more to do with 'preference'. Looking back I have mostly dressed as I have wanted to and only subscribed to standard codes when the situation has required it... By that I mean I have presented as male... but have tried to a bit more non-conventional.. when I was 18 I was wearing a satin jacket, crushed velvet trousers and a cheesecloth shirt with flowers on it! And yellow leather stacked heels with red snake-skin stars!

I don't need my own 'area' here... this IS the area for those of us who are inter-gendered! :D:hugs:

[Pythos]

Like you when I attended CD events or gatherings I felt quite out of place. My style is definitely feminine. I can look dead on female, but in all reality what I do is like when a woman decides to not wear make up, wear masculine patterned clothing if not male clothing, and have short hair, but NOT try to pass as a male. That is what I do, just in the other direction. I don't use forms, or hip shapers, I usually don't tuck, I just wear what I like, and frankly I find the clothing that women in our culture can wear to be much nicer and more fun to wear.

I see myself as androgynous or gender fluid.

I feel my mind is that of both, I am definitely emotionally female, and my body has very slight but present female characteristics. But overall, I am male.

[Beverley Sims]

Byllie, from my point of view, whatever rocks your boat.
This section suits my requirements.

[Byllie]

Bill, It sounds as though you are determined to criticize everyone. Be yourself and let me be who I want to be. That is what it's all about. How you wish to view and interact with the world is your business. Have fun!
If you want to contribute without criticizing, Great! if not, then, you may never be happy unless you're trying to force someone to believe as you do. That's called biggotry.
I'm not criticizing. I'm trying to truly discuss the terms we use to describe ourselves. I would never, never tell someone what label to use for themselves. There ARE true crossdressers, and you are probably one of them. However, even though I do wear feminine items, I do not see it as crossdressing.

Yes, we do use labels, to help us understand life. But labels can also create discrete categories, which is what I'm trying to avoid.

Bravo! Well said, Jen!


I have no idea how to describe my gender. I called myself a crossdresser when I joined the forum, but I think it is a convenient term which doesn't fully describe what is going on for me. I don't really feel like any term really describes it, but I suppose we have to have labels of some kind, even is they are inadequate, otherwise we wouldn't have a name for the forum for example!
True, true, true! Again, the caveat that labels can create categories. Crossdressing is an activity, shared by many types of people, af various genders and sexes. Therefore, to say you are a "crossdresser" does not imply gender or sex.


This post kinda reminds me of the new thinking is schools and rec sports. EVERYBODY gets a medal win or lose , that way everybody is happy. There may be labels that have not been created yet, but not many. As Brandy said, that part of any language.

Your original quote: "Genderwise, I see myself as neither male nor female". In nature, you would be an earthworm. Neither male nor female. IF you tell people you are a true earthworm, they should get it immediately. There's a label for you.

Please don't thank me for solving this dilemma.
Snarf! (that's me laughing through my nose)

[Byllie]

BTW, in the USA it is illegal to force someone to enter M or F on a form.

[Byllie]

Hmm, it would seem I've stirred up a final kettle of ... earthworms? <grin>

Folks, I do not plan on leaving this site. I find the camaraderie well appreciated. And, for now, I will pull back my views ... a tad. ;-D

[Annette Todd]

Sorry Byllie,

Maybe I got a little carried away.

I don't agree though that Crossdressing is an illogical term. (maybr I misunderstood) However, going by the "rules" or what is generally accepted as normal... Males shop in the men's section or men's stores. Whereas, females shop in their corresponding sections of which there are many more divisions, ie ladies, women, plus, petite, casual, active, etc. The "rules" aren't equal though there are a large number of female fasions that outwardly appear male but they are purposely shaped for the female form. (ah well, I won't get into that discussion about geese and ganders)

A male wearing panties, a camisole or nylon stockings IS crossdressing because these are not typically male items. Whether we under dress or go fully dressed, degrees are not really relevent to the societal norms.
I feel personally the clothes that I or anyone else chooses to wear is their business.


BTW, in the USA it is illegal to force someone to enter M or F on a form.

Speaking as a human resource manager, asking demographic information is not illegal. It becomes illegal when that information is used to discriminate illegally. For example, a college housing form must ask gender. They can't or won't put males and females together in the same room or maybe even the same floor in the case of communal showers. (dammit!;) )

[NicoleScott]

Speaking as a human resource manager, asking demographic information is not illegal. It becomes illegal when that information is used to discriminate illegally. For example, a college housing form must ask gender. They can't or won't put males and females together in the same room or maybe even the same floor in the case of communal showers. (dammit! )

Annette, do they really want to know a student's gender? Or do they want to know the student's sex? My son brought home a student information form, and they asked for gender. I also see gender used instead of sex (is that a dirty word or something?) on many TV news reports.
There are many here who are clearly male (sex), but self-identify as female (gender). How would such a person be placed in college housing? According to gender, or sex?

[Annette Todd]

How would such a person be placed in college housing? According to gender, or sex?

Symantics! I guess the answer to your question is sex. I consider them interchangeable. However, I see that there is are those that define the words differently and you will see both used to represent the same thing. There are those who consider the word gender as a more politically correct way of asking sex. My answer to sex is not m or f but YES! I personally don't identify as female (I don't have the plumbing for that). I am male but I consider (identify) as being more feminine in outlook and temperament. I also wish to appear more feminine in body, dress and carriage.