A question to CD's from a TS about employment.

[SandraAbsent]

Was just curious. I would venture for every one CD that is out, there are a 100 that are ranging from sorta closeted to deeply closeted. Most CDs I know I dentify as male and move on. With this in mind I have a question.

I'm sure many of you here are management, business owners, or human resources. Tell me the honest truth here. If in the course of your day you were hiring for an opening in your company, and someone walks in as an applicant that was TS, what would you do?

I've interviewed for several positions, where I knew the interviewer was gay or lesbian, one would naturally assume they had the guts to be out, meant they might have the guts to hire someone that is also out. The result? Nope!

Just a hypothetical question, but lets hear what you have to say!

[Annie D]

I think that a decision maker does not necessarily do what he thinks is right but rather what is best for his company. It is an unfortunate situation but the bottom line is the bottom line. If one of us would cause a situation where we would cost him the ability to make a profit or more of a profit then our employment is not in the best interest of the company. I know that there is affirmative action and the federal government has enacted laws to prohibit discrimination but I think that employers would find another reason to not hire a TS. I don't like it but that is what the world that I think it is, is like.

I am in public education and there are many transgendered people in my profession. I just think that the first day that I showed up to teach as a crossdresser would be my last. I think that I could continue to work in education if I were to undergo SRS but I would probably be reassigned to another school or need to seek employment in another district. I think there are situations were I could work as a CD in other professions and I'm sure that many people will contribute their opinions and stories of cd successes and failures. I look forward to reading the replies and opinions.

[BRANDYJ]

Hi Sandra. OK, I no longer own my own business but have a few times in the past. Here is my honest answer that I guess most TS's would not like. If that applicant was TS and presented as a woman that was nearly impossible to detect has transitioned, then if fully qualified for the job I had to offer, then yes, I'd hire her. However if she was easily detected by my clients or customers, I'd have to say no. I would never do anything to make my clients and customers feel uncomfortable. A easily read TS would surely cost me business since most people feel uncomfortable around anyone that is different. If the job was in the background and not involving servicing or one on one communication with my customers or clients, then I still might hire her.
But I'd apply my logic to even a GG that was not professionally presentable. Like if she had multi face piercings and large or many tattoos. That in fact could drive away as much or more customers and business then a TS that does not blend well. It comes down to what is and is not conducive to my business and profits.

[Beverley Sims]

I am not in management but, a lot of those that are are mindful of the rest of their employees are decidedly hetrosexual.
In other words there is a reluctance to employ any one that might be seen as a man wanting to use the women's conveniences etc.
So acceptance is still divided.
Other excuses would be used, not suited to the tasks in hand, overqualified, and so on.
If I held a position of personnel manager the best I may do is canvas the staff to see if they approve.
Even fully understanding your situation and assuming you were suited for the position, I would have to go by company policy.
Yes I do sympathize with you, it is a hard road to go down.
I will also be interested to hear others views.

[kimdl93]

I would be entirely open to hiring a TS person, all else being equal. In fact I may be a bit biased in favor of a TS applicant.

[Debglam]

I would not hire an unqualified person BUT I would give the transperson every benefit I could give them. If I hired him or her, I would make it clear that they had an ally.

Look, IMHO and experience the vast majority of hirings and promotions are base on who knows who. It may not be fair but it is the way it is. If we don't look out for each other the odds are nobody else will.

[RADER]

I have been a Carpenter, Foreman and Superintendent, I have hired green women and started them into
the Apprenticeship Program with the blessing of my bosses. However, If I would have hired a cross dresser,
Well I do believe I would be looking for a job. The Construction Industry just does not lend itself to
Our way of thinking. Maybe some day this will all be mute, and anybody that is qualified to do the job
can get that job; And their Sexual orientation would not play a part of the decision to hire.
Rader

[BRANDYJ]

Radar, the question was not about hiring a CD. The Op asked about hiring a TS. Huge difference.

[suchacutie]

This a fascinating question. The question about gender presentation would not be one that would come up in a legally-conducted interview, along with a whole host of other questions that could potentially generate a bias that has nothing to do with the job.

There was a time in my career that I did a lot of hiring, and interviewing. The best candidate was always the issue, with EEO considerations making sure that identified minorities were given the benefit of every doubt possible. As far as I know, gender identity is not an identifiable minority.

So, the only answer is to be the best girl for the job.

[Nicole Brown]

Prior to my retiring last year I was in a position where I hired quite a few people. Over the years I hired a gentlemen who was openly gay and a lovely lady who was a lesbian. I knew about both of them prior to my hiring each of them and they were up against some pretty stiff competition.
I mention this to explain that a candidate's chance of being hired depended upon their qualifications, experience, work history, appearance and lastly my gut feel about them. That said, I believe I hired the most qualified person in each instance.
I myself being a pre op transsexual woman would have loved to hire another transsexual woman. Alas, none ever applied for a position so I was unable to bring one into my organization. But to directly answer your question, yes, if properly qualified and she met all of the other requirements, I would have hired a transsexual woman in a heartbeat.

[Badtranny]

I'm not a CD but I do hire people when necessary and a TS man OR woman would pose a quandary. If I thought they were qualified, I would still be reluctant to hire because I would be concerned about the rest of the mangers thinking I was exercising favoritism to a sister or brother. If they were average at best, I would probably pass, but if I thought they were great then I would schedule an interview with HR along with my boss and let them make the decision with my recommendation.

I would love to help, but my credibility has been hard earned and the last thing I want to do is be embarrassed by a fellow trans person. That may sound bad, but being trans is no guarantee of character or competence, in fact my experience is that a good half of the trans people (mostly TS women) I've met, are basically unemployable for one reason or another. We're probably ALL crazy to an extent, but a lot of us wear the crazy as an overcoat.

[PretzelGirl]

I think we are still in a period where the corporate culture will impact the decision. I would like to believe that all else being equal, I would have no problem hiring a TS lady. Given that my company has one lady that transitioned on the job and another that I believe hired on (well before my time), then there isn't a closed door where I work. So given all of that, my answer would be yes.

[SandraAbsent]

Lots of interesting perspectives here. Some that surprised me and some that haven't. I myself would do everything I could to give another TS the job, provided she was as competent as the rest of the pack. I will tend to agree with Misty...


I would love to help, but my credibility has been hard earned and the last thing I want to do is be embarrassed by a fellow trans person. That may sound bad, but being trans is no guarantee of character or competence, in fact my experience is that a good half of the trans people (mostly TS women) I've met, are basically unemployable for one reason or another. We're probably ALL crazy to an extent, but a lot of us wear the crazy as an overcoat.

I see girls all the time that just make me shake my head (passable or not), while others stun me with absolute professionalism (passable or not). Many times in my life right now, I avoid other trans people unless they are very close friends. I don't need the extra attention, I draw enough all on my own. So I would have to think really hard before hiring a sister.

So my original post was basically...Would you a CD or TS, hire a competent and qualified TS. It does not surprise me the double standard we sometime display. The claim to support equality, but then are faced with, and make decisions that contradict the equality mantra.

[bridget thronton]

I would hire qualified applicant - transexual or not

[Nicole Erin]

Sandra, I would not count on the "community" for jack crap. I have a beautician license and I have been discriminated against. They usually have other excuses for not wanting to hie me but i know the truth.

Usually the story i got was, "We are not hiring but if you call the shop up on main street, they are looking for someone" So they did the interview and now they are not hiring?

So salons have no problems hiring some flamboyant acting gay men who are loud and obnoxious but they won't hire a TS who acts like a normal person?

The "community" basically sucks.

[sterling12]

OK, here's The Deal, and I think it might explain a little bit about The Situation you described.

H.R. People are thought of as "Support" or "Staff" within The Business Structure. They are usually NOT The People who do the actual hiring, except for their own Departments. So, a good deal of their time reviewing candidates for a position, is "ruling out" people that they feel would not be a good "match" for The Manager of The Department with The Opening. Since a "Bad Match" reflects badly about their abilities to do their job, they don't spend much time thinking "outside The Box." They are looking for a Set of Check Points that match A Resume up with a job description. ("If you follow The Job Description they can't blame you!") Anything or ANYONE who varies from "The Norm" is very unlikely to get consideration to move onto Phase Two. (The Actual Interview with The Decision maker.)

There are a couple of Variables, or Situations where a TS Person might have a better shot, but they are rare. Forinstace....The Company just got sued for A Gender Discrimination Case. logically, they would be much more likely to hire someone transgendered AFTER they got their Noses rubbed in it! Or....A Job where an individual's expertise and value was so high, it trumps most other concerns. Someone like A Design Engineer with acknowledged experience in a field that would directly effect profitability, or A medical Person with abilities that were just about impossible to find somewhere else.

So, it's almost always "The Bottom Line" that effects these decisions. Either that, or an effort to avoid responsibility if things go wrong! I don't think it's tangible discrimination. More likely it's just C.Y.A.!

peace and Love, Joanie

[Inna]

this almost needs a follow up thread, it is a great question and a serious one.

In the slightly bigger picture it shows how one mans opinion regarding employability of an individual differs from the conglomerate, corporate and societal standard.
Corporation is not a human, it is a machine, with strict laws which need be obeyed, that is why some of us do not look favorably upon these conglomerates as they are devoid of soul and heart.
Also the point raised about passability of a TS is right on, all the way to the last detail.
I am currently looking for extra employment due to new and demanding circumstances. I started about a month ago, fully passable, body of a tall woman, presentation up the par with the rest of professional woman, female voice, female mannerisms, believe me I can give a runway models a run for their money, lol, but one thing remaining, name change in courts hands awaiting process.
Well I decided to go for it regardless, well these folks would surely understand........
After initial conversations on the phone managers were eager to see me, after all 18 years of district and GM experience served for a couple cents on a dollar, an easy take.
Then the interviews, poised, warm and honest conversations, for some MALE MGRs I could see a spark in their eye.....lol, then comes the hard part "so what is your legal name?" I have explained in the best possible way about past two years of life changing growth without revealing the obvious detail.....so far really good, some even nodded "Oh yeah, I know, I had gone through similar" (I nearly laughed my ars to oblivion silently) then I write my name on application..............."WHOOOOOT" their jaw drops to their lap, their eyes devoid of conscious reason look for clueless to start up their brains which apparently have exploded just a second ago, shivering words come towards me " OK............I see..................Well........................O K..................Soooo

Not one did come through, and I am confident that if my name coincided with the image I would had gotten the job!

[Missy]

most Company's will look for whats is best for the company ( like what customers want first and for most) then qualifications next that the future employee has
if the business can not make it because of no customers then employee will not be working

[Jenniferathome]

I am absolutely in the position you describe. My first issue would be qualifications, next is distraction. Willthey cause it or be the cause of it? Will any new hire "fit in" to the group dynamic? If yes, then I don't care what the individual's story is.

[sandra-leigh]

I have run some hires. The toughest ones were the entry level positions. In one case, the applicant got the position because they were the only person who unplugged the power cord before servicing some equipment on the practical test. In another case, a massively over-qualified person did not get a position because they argued when a fairly minor flaw was pointed out to them -- thereby demonstrating that their ego was more important to them than team work. In the positions that were not entry level, it was usually pretty clear to us which of the candidates was most qualified.

For the kind of work I'm doing now, appearance and gender are seldom issues at all, but skill and inquisitiveness and communications ability are highly important.

[Persephone]

I never knowingly had a TS person apply for a job in my company, but if they had and if their qulifications were up to our expectations I would have seen no reason not to hire them. The closest I can come, beyond my own proclivities for wearing heels around the office (but never in client meetings!), was that we had gay and lesbian staff members. I'm not a believer in the "LGBT community" junk, but that's the best I can do with actual practices.

My spouse worked for a large company and she did hire a TS, not because she was a TS but because she was the best qualified. She did do a good job although my spouse says she did have some personal behaviors that my spouse feels were not necessarily related to being a TS that did require some management intervention. Most people around the company knew of her transition and accepted and worked well with her. My spouse supported her and says that she definitely would have kept her employed, but the lady left of her own accord because the medical insurance would not cover her surgery.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[GaleWarning]

Radar, the question was not about hiring a CD. The Op asked about hiring a TS. Huge difference.

How I hate these bloody labels!

But to answer the question ... I used to hire for a role which required the employee to interact positively with the general public. I was interested in hiring people who could do so successfully. I once hired a good and gentle soul who had a deformed arm. The general public judged that person by what they saw, not by what was unseen. Does that answer your question?

[Vickie_CDTV]

Given I am in a business that caters to the trans community (even though not exclusively), sure I would consider hiring a TS. It might even be an asset.

[noeleena]

Hi,

I have worked for quite a few dept's both private & govt, I have had others work with me under me & for me. I employed others as well so iv seen a few people, in our day from the 60's on till two years ago iv never had any that had a prefrance for dressing or any other form of change.

Those i hired most did not have any trade just labourer's i just asked the person would you like to work for me on this job & if they did they were with me.

I learnt one thing at school you can have all the pass's all the therory yet are totaly useless on the job iv proved that many times if you are not teachable then you wont be with me on the job.

Iv had our daughter work for me on 3 jobs & she was very able & she can stand up to some men & tell them how to do a job & does things herself,

Its about knowing whats involved & being able to do the task.

I was in the building trade 46 years & covered all aspects from start to compleate. had other trades under myself as well.

For me its not how they look or not , its about being hoinist up front doing your job & be reliable , & they were paid more than the going rate,

Iv worked with men & women & iv worked as both percived male & as a woman. yes a woman on the job or building site with men under you,

Would i hire a person who had other preferances reguardless , yes & why not , & i have though not on a building site , it was under another situsion yet i was still in charge, & had men under me whoa the power i had......he he .... sorry just had to say it,,,,, come on i have made a good boss i just treat others as i like them to treat me, simple ,

...noeleena...

[Cheryl T]

I would hire based on the job requirements and the qualifications of the applicant.
Nothing else should matter...there's too much "equal opportunity" these days and I feel that that is one of the reasons that American businesses are struggling. They do not hire the most qualified, but to fill quotas and that detracts from the performance of the company as a whole.

[Karren H]

I've hired a number of people to work for me.... the latest one to replace me when I retire... and if a candidate has all the technical skills (15 plus years of underground mining engineering plus finance), is a team player, a self starter, speaks well in front of management groups, and is a snappy dresser like I am.... they get the job.....

[kristinacd55]

Wow, interesting post Sandra and very thought provoking. I had my business up until about 3 years ago and I believe that honestly I would have looked at a TS with prejudice eyes. Of course, it would've depended on what job they were applying for. I was in the retail business and any sales position including sales manager I would've looked at and said hmm it would just be too tough an environment for them to handle and too much of a disruption in our organization. Now, I'm looking at it from my point of view THEN, when I was also still in the closet. Today, I believe I would handle it differently. Of course, in reality I didn't hire people for sales jobs anyway, I left that to my sales manager and the office staff was handled by my sister in law so I wasn't involved in the hiring at the end. Hmm...maybe that's why we went out of business! :eek: When we were a smaller company I DID do all the hiring!

[Kate Simmons]

I'd be looking to hire the best person for the company and the one I felt was most qualified for the position. If the TS person was the one I felt was most qualified, I would hire them. Then I would make sure all of the other ducks were in a row, including providing unisex restrooms in case there any objections from other employees assuming the TS person is out and open. I would be prepared to hold meetings on diversity in the work place if need be. I would tell the TS person this up front to make sure THEY still want the position. Otherwise the fact that they are TS would not even be mentioned unless some issues came up.:)

[LeaP]

Timely topic. I was just selected for an enterprise-level (this is a large multinational) working group on recruiting and hiring.

Would I hire a TS? Sure, subject to the same caveats as anyone else. As that always includes presentation and team fit, some TSs might present some unique problems. As a manager, I would be as intolerant of anti-trans attitudes in staff as I am of racism or sexism. Because the situation would be unusual, I would likely consult HR and prep interviewers, assuming I knew from a pre-screening. But the normal considerations of presentation (not passability) would apply. Appropriate clothing, speech and behavior, etc. Someone whose presentation is teenage s*** doesn't get hired, GG or TS. (as one example)

[BLUE ORCHID]

I think for us we would be able to understant them a little better but they should be qualified for the job.

[Sarasometimes]

I agree with the bottom line approach especially with the current econony. The interviewer is tasked with finding the best "fit" for the position from the company's persepctive. This is one of the reasons I often times still call businesses before I stop by. Let us say you get hired as a qualified applicant for a sales position. And most of you customers are anti TS and won't buy from you. This could endanger the jobs of other TS'es working there. Understand that life is often unfair but that is life. I work with a gay guy and the bosses are so afraid of him, he gets put into spots he can't handle and it reflects poorly on him and our organization. So it can even work that way. Now as for me it that spot as interviewer, I would hope I would do my best to find a fit for a qualified TS that would work for all involved. Good luck in your job search and remember many people who are fortunate to be from the "mainstream" have had to look everywhere for a job, not just in their chosen field so keep an open mind and let everyone you meet know you are looking for work. Over 80% of jobs are never advertised!!

[Badtranny]

I would hire based on the job requirements and the qualifications of the applicant.
Nothing else should matter...there's too much "equal opportunity" these days and I feel that that is one of the reasons that American businesses are struggling. They do not hire the most qualified, but to fill quotas and that detracts from the performance of the company as a whole.

What? I work for a rather large electrical contractor, which is wholly owned by the largest specialty contractor in the nation which is a publicly held company so we are well aware of EOE requirements, but there are NO quotas and NO pressure to hire anyone that isn't in fact the most qualified. People like my Tea Bagger dad say this kind of stuff all the time, and it just isn't true.

[Kerigirl2009]

I have about 60 people that work for me and I would have no issues hiring someone that presents themselves in a clean, caring about the job additude, and is responsible enough to get the job done right. Even if they where TS. Now I might have a problem hiring a man with a beard that dresses in all female clothing, because that would be a distraction to the others. but if they where trying to blend or pass as female or male then I have no problem at all.

[Sara Jessica]

I have been in a position of interviewing and/or actual hiring over the last 13 years or so. To this point, no one who is trans has presented for an interview so anything I might say about what I would do if given a chance to hire someone who is TS would just be lip service.

I will say this. The corporate workplace has changed. I inherited some employee's at one point who presented with nose piercing, tattoos, faux-hawk hairstyles, etc. To this day I still see this stuff in our highly conservative environment. I have seen a heavily tattooed woman be promoted because of her ability and potential with her body art not holding her back. And the fact that my own long hair in the corporate environment has been a non-issue as far as I can tell speaks to change. Granted, such change isn't necessarily evident at every company out there but it's a start.

I hope that one day I will have an opportunity to go to bat for a TS who might apply for a position in our organization. Good people in our industry are highly sought after. I would hope that trans would not prove to make an outstanding candidate a non-starter.

[Jorja]

I own a construction company and an architectural design company. They are two seperate entities that function as one when needed. As you can imagine, conctruction is a heavily male populated trade. Many in the TG community were being (in my opinion) discriminated against and not being hired for positions they were qualified for only because they were different. I started hiring them. I now have 25 - 30 employees that are TG. We have had no proplem getting or keeping clients. We get hired because of the product we turn out not because of who we have working for us. When we are hiring, If you got the skills, you got have a shot at the job no matter what your tag is TG/TS/CD,IS,M,F, G, or Alien.

[stefan37]

I own my own electrical and mechanical contracting business. If an individual possesses the required mechanical and theoretical
skills to adequately install and troubleshoot systems and equipment, has the requisite skills to interact with clients in a professional manner and can clean up after themselves and leave the clients property in better shape than we arrived. I would hire that person in a heartbeat. I may be biased in that I am starting my transition at this time, but my customers and employees have all interacted with me wearing nail polish on toes and fingers, women's tee shirts and jeans, eyeliner and eye shadow on a daily basis for approximately 3 years to date. I have not lost any long time clients and I don't anticipate losing any after transition as long as the focus remains on finding solutions to the challenges our clients ask of us.

[Kaz]

In the UK we have laws on this. In the public sector (government) they have been very positive, so as to be seen to be taking the lead (not that good in practice...:doh:)... but anti-discrimination law here is taken seriously...

Having said that people always want to go by their biases and will work around it!

Me... I have hired people on 'talent' and that is it for me. Do they shine and will they fit the role? Lots of people fit the role and don't shine, some shine and don't fit the role...

I remember doing some work with a banking call centre - they hired on telephony skills... the rest they could teach.

Would I hire a CD/TS... depends on the role and what they bring... simple:)

[LeaP]

I agree with the bottom line approach especially with the current econony. The interviewer is tasked with finding the best "fit" for the position from the company's persepctive. ... Let us say you get hired as a qualified applicant for a sales position. And most of you customers are anti TS and won't buy from you. This could endanger the jobs of other TS'es working there. Understand that life is often unfair but that is life. I work with a gay guy and the bosses are so afraid of him, he gets put into spots he can't handle and it reflects poorly on him and our organization. ... remember many people who are fortunate to be from the "mainstream" have had to look everywhere for a job, not just in their chosen field so keep an open mind and let everyone you meet know you are looking for work....

You're right. It's not fair. It's illegal due to the recent EEOC ruling, though we will have see how it's applied in individual cases going forward.

The same arguments were made for race. It's very hard for me not to read your comments as "Business is bad. We really can't afford to do the right thing now."

I fail to see the relevance of your citation of the gay guy. Are you saying he can't handle situations because he's gay? Really?

To the extent that your "mainstream" comment refers to qualifications and real job suitability, I agree with you. For example, someone who is an awkward public speaker and introverted would not typically be hired as a company spokesman. But if by "mainstream" you meant those who aren't gay, trans, etc., then I completely disagree.

Finally, I find your breezy comment about keeping an open mind and letting people know you're looking for work incredibly dismissive of the serious problems that people who experience discrimination have in finding work. Trans people are among the worst off in that regard, with problems ranging from dismissals, underemployment, unemployment, homelessness, and people turning in desperation to work in the sex trade.


What? I work for a rather large electrical contractor, which is wholly owned by the largest specialty contractor in the nation which is a publicly held company so we are well aware of EOE requirements, but there are NO quotas and NO pressure to hire anyone that isn't in fact the most qualified. People like my Tea Bagger dad say this kind of stuff all the time, and it just isn't true.

I am about as conservative as they come, though no tea bagger, and I agree 100% with this. Also I will say this on behalf of the efforts of (at least some) large corporations: they don't pay attention to diversity just for lipservice or for legal compliance. Diversity is a very strong commitment in many companies, trained into everyone from top to bottom, monitored, and it is seen as a strategic asset in business. There are no quotas in any of the companies in which I have worked. Numbers are looked at, along with a zillion other factors, but to say that the approach is nuanced and thoughtful would be an understatement.

My current firm has adopted a policy against gender identity and expression discrimination. It has not yet developed policy details, practices, monitoring approaches, or training, however, that go along with it. New ground.

[Voulez-Vous]

If in the course of your day you were hiring for an opening in your company, and someone walks in as an applicant that was TS, what would you do?

No, I would not hire you. Why bring in un-necessary drama?

[Debglam]

I started hiring them. I now have 25 - 30 employees that are TG. We have had no proplem getting or keeping clients. We get hired because of the product we turn out not because of who we have working for us .

Awesome Jorja! You made my day! :)

[LeaP]

Awesome Jorja! You made my day! :)

:yt:


No, I would not hire you. Why bring in un-necessary drama?

:believeit:

[JeanneF]

My honest answer to the question is: I don't know. My business (automobile dealership) is such that nearly all employees are responsible for face-to-face interaction with the customer, with the exception of the staff in the back office (accounting and such). Would I hire a TS for a sales position? I wish I could say yes, but I really don't know. I have had a couple of openly gay and lesbian salespeople, all who have been excellent, but without exception you wouldn't have picked that person out of the crowd and said "yes, he's gay". I do have two lesbian mechanics who are clearly of the more "butch" type, and I wouldn't be surprised if one of them eventually transitions.

As a company we are also committed to diversity, I can honestly say that we are well represented as far as sex, ethnicity and sexual orientation. Gender identity is a little bit tougher though...that's where the personal presentation issue can come into play. I would have no issues with hiring someone who had completed her transition, but someone mid-way on the journey could be a little more of a problem. For a sales position, I think I can clearly say no. But for service or operations jobs, I wouldn't have an issue.

Great question...it really made me think.

[sandra-leigh]

No, I would not hire you. Why bring in un-necessary drama?

You are probably right -- best to avoid the likelihood that in a few months I will know your product better than you do.

[April_Ligeia]

In my experience hiring for a very large corporate entity, from the applicant's point of view, they interviewed with one person. After the fact, the interview was discussed with two other managers, and the actual hiring is done at the corporate office. I never had a TS candidate apply, but no one person makes hiring decisions in corporate America, so I honestly don't know whether or not I could get a TS person hired. I know that's not really an answer, but this thread is food for thought.

[avant1465]

I've been a hiring manager in the past, and can offer this:

IF the position requires interaction with the public... and IF that "public" can be expected to be put off by a person who is openly L/G/B/T, then I would NOT hire that prospect... I MUST put the Company's (predictable) interest first. Note, this also applies to other (more-benign?) attributes, as well.. such as gender, colour or religion....

For a position wherein I could expect that the prospect's appearance and behaviour would NOT be expected to have impact on their ability to do that job (relative to WHO they must deal with).... I wouldn't give a darn about any of their details.... such as gay/straight/CD.... OR gender, color or religion (or, even, politics!)....

I expect I'll get "called" on that first paragraph.... on the claim that EEO is SPECIFICALLY meant to prevent/avoid that... But, believe me, hiring managers must be (are) careful when they are going to put an employee in front of their Customers.... and will skirt EEO in whatever manner is necessary!!!!

[Voulez-Vous]

You are probably right -- best to avoid the likelihood that in a few months I will know your product better than you do.

No point in taking a chance when dealing with the public.

[BRANDYJ]

You all have heard the saying, "If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, then it must be a duck".
So if I was hiring I can apply the same principal. If she looks like a woman, talks like a woman, walks like a woman, then she must be a woman.... She's hired! That is if she is as qualified as any other applicant.

[LeaP]

I expect I'll get "called" on that first paragraph.... on the claim that EEO is SPECIFICALLY meant to prevent/avoid that... But, believe me, hiring managers must be (are) careful when they are going to put an employee in front of their Customers.... and will skirt EEO in whatever manner is necessary!!!!

Look, I'm not going to pretend that a chunk of the public might be put off by dealing with a TS. I'm also cognizant of the fact that a TS who isn't fully passable is going to have to overcome that with those customers. Trust me when I say that the TS is actually going to be far more aware of that than you are, in excruciating detail. A good interviewer can rapidly - and I do mean rapidly - assess the candidate's ability to succeed without resorting directly to questions of gender. In other words, just as with any area of personal challenge, it still comes down to ability, suitability, and fit.

[Voulez-Vous]

Look, I'm not going to pretend that a chunk of the public might be put off by dealing with a TS. I'm also cognizant of the fact that a TS who isn't fully passable is going to have to overcome that with those customers.

Let's be completely honest here. Almost ALL customers would be put off when dealing with a non-passable TS. Sure, I know there are discrimination laws about hiring TS's. But that employer can find some other reason to not hire a TS. A non passable transitioning TS is worse than a non passable CD. What employer would deal with that if he didn't have to? Just being honest.

[SandraAbsent]

WOW! An amazing example of proving them wrong!


I own a construction company and an architectural design company. They are two seperate entities that function as one when needed. As you can imagine, conctruction is a heavily male populated trade. Many in the TG community were being (in my opinion) discriminated against and not being hired for positions they were qualified for only because they were different. I started hiring them. I now have 25 - 30 employees that are TG. We have had no proplem getting or keeping clients. We get hired because of the product we turn out not because of who we have working for us. When we are hiring, If you got the skills, you got have a shot at the job no matter what your tag is TG/TS/CD,IS,M,F, G, or Alien.

[StephanieJ]

A few years ago I hired a TS to be the receptionist for our accounting firm. She was extremely fashionable and good with people, but a little slow on the technical side. Even though I really liked her, I eventually had to let her go because some of my biggest clients found out and threatened to take their business elsewhere. If she had been more technically competent I would have considered keeping her, but in the end I had to put our finances first and gave in to their bigoted hatred.

Another time I picked up a handful of clients who were looking for a new accountant because they found out that their former CPA had announced that he was transitioning. I had to smile because I'm sure they had no idea that their new CPA was also a cross dresser...

Bottom line is that although we all try to be as accepting as possible, we are a minority doing battle against a larger public perception. We sometimes have to put the needs of our businesses and our customers first. If a TS applied at my firm for a back office position, yes, I would hire them in a minute as long as they were technically skilled. But it get's a whole lot more complicated when hiring someone who is going to be dealing with the public.

Heck, even I sometimes wish I could come to work in a dress, but I remind myself that presenting as male at the office is just like wearing my "uniform" at work. It's not what I would wear at home, nor is it who I really am. It's just a roll I play in order to make a living.

[LeaP]

Let's be completely honest here. Almost ALL customers would be put off when dealing with a non-passable TS. Sure, I know there are discrimination laws about hiring TS's. But that employer can find some other reason to not hire a TS. A non passable transitioning TS is worse than a non passable CD. What employer would deal with that if he didn't have to? Just being honest.

The ones forced to address it through quotas. Alternatively, those who are unmasked through stings. Because your reasoning is exactly what leads to such things. It's going to get ugly because the government IS now involved.

I find the statement about non-passable TSs vs CDers bizarre. How would anyone know the difference? Returning to the general public theme, who do you think is going to care about the difference anyway?



Heck, even I sometimes wish I could come to work in a dress, but I remind myself that presenting as male at the office is just like wearing my "uniform" at work. It's not what I would wear at home, nor is it who I really am. It's just a roll I play in order to make a living.

Transsexuals are not engaged in role play at work.

[Voulez-Vous]

I find the statement about non-passable TSs vs CDers bizarre. How would anyone know the difference? Returning to the general public theme, who do you think is going to care about the difference anyway?


Why would anyone care about the diff between a CD and a transitioning TS? Well, usually CD's dress male for work. A transitioning TS would probably need to dress female because they are becoming a woman, and the public just has to deal with them. That doesn't mean an employer has to deal with them, unless they choose to.

[Jorja]

WOW! An amazing example of proving them wrong!

I am not trying to prove anyone wrong or make any other statements. I saw a need, they had the skills, I put them to work. Simple as that.

[Julie Gaum]

Julie here with other complications in this trans world: Back in the 1970s when I was running operations for a big retail chain our southern stores were hiring lesbians not because red-necked store managers liked the idea but because they made the best plain-clothes in-store detectives (most apprehensions). Worked out fine for awhile until those of that persuasion started to hire like-minded individuals. Then the you know what hit the fan. I had to direct regional security supervisors to split up these groups and spread them out to stores in other cities or states. Southern states were not very accepting then and still often a problem for CDs and TS gals today. So in a corporate world we still have to be careful of too many in one location shaking up unaccepting employes.
In another situation a hardware buyer in Cleveland was boasting that his secretary had the best legs in the buying office (which she did) and her boyfriend bought her a boat. Then her past references showed up that she was in transition. The other gals in the office protested that she was using their restroom so her boss fired her and THEN called me in Secaucus, New Jerasey. I told him to rehire her and we would find another solution to the restroms. Too late! She was now uncomfortable and I helped her find another job. Mind you this was in the 1970s.
The corporate environment to this day still has to weigh what is ethical against profitable business practices.
Julie
Oh yes, how do I go about putting a picture on my profile as I just made a few? I know I need to direct ths question elsewhere.

[sandra-leigh]

Let's be completely honest here. Almost ALL customers would be put off when dealing with a non-passable TS.

That might be the case where you are. Here, people are more open.

I don't mean to say that local TS never have employment difficulties, but rather that around here fears of many or "almost all" customers being upset do not appear to be well-grounded; it is taken more in stride by people here.

[Voulez-Vous]

That might be the case where you are. Here, people are more open.
I don't mean to say that local TS never have employment difficulties, but rather that around here fears of many or "almost all" customers being upset do not appear to be well-grounded; it is taken more in stride by people here.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm not going to argue with you, but I assure you that in the real world it generally doesn't work that way. A man wearing women's clothing (and some non passable TS' look like that) would be the kiss of death in any business requiring dealing with customers directly. Whether you want to accept it or not, that is reality.

[arbon]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm not going to argue with you, but I assure you that in the real world it generally doesn't work that way. A man wearing women's clothing (and some non passable TS' look like that) would be the kiss of death in any business requiring dealing with customers directly. Whether you want to accept it or not, that is reality.


I work with a lot of people in our business community. I am the face of the company I work for. I've worked for the company for over 20 years.

It is pretty obvious from my physical appearance that I am trans. I don't pass that well. Though I think that I am feminine enough that people don't see me as a guy wearing women's either.

Since going full time I have not lost a single account or felt that anyone in the business community was so uneasy with me that an account was in jeopardy. And even before I went full time it was pretty much common knowledge among most the people I worked with that I was transgender and in the process of transition. July was my best sales month in 2 years.

The most difficult issue has not been me scarring customers away, because that has not happened, what they are mostly concerned with is getting what they want, but rather it has been the struggle I've had dealing with my boss for the last 2 years because he has been very afraid that my transition is going to hurt the business, that it will scare customers away, and he has wanted me gone for that.

I know that when this job is gone my chances of finding something as that non-passable trans woman are pretty dang crappy, despite my work history and experience.

Just business.

[Contessa]

I wonder if I should go any further than the title. I am a crossdressing transexual. I went to work dressed now they know. The only thing I can't do now is wear skirts, dresses and heels. I am still CDTS and still working. Now what!


Tess

[Debglam]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm not going to argue with you, but I assure you that in the real world it generally doesn't work that way. A man wearing women's clothing (and some non passable TS' look like that) would be the kiss of death in any business requiring dealing with customers directly. Whether you want to accept it or not, that is reality.

I'm sorry but that is the same kind of lame excuse used in the past for not hiring blacks and people of color, the handicapped, or anyone else that looks different. What about ugly people? Where does it end?

Following this logic, every bigoted idiot would drive hiring practices for businesses. This is not the "real world" at least not in 2012. I am extremely thankful that there ARE courageous people and businesses that would rather do the right thing than the expedient thing!

[Voulez-Vous]

This is not the "real world" at least not in 2012.

Maybe not for you, but a whole lot of people will tell you different.

Where does it end? It doesn't.

[Duana]

In my past life, I was an engineering manager who has hired dozens of engineers. The only factor I ever considered was qualifications, experience and intelligence. If a TS presented these factors, I would have no problem hiring her. Period.

[flatlander_48]

About a month ago, I celebrated 40 years as a mechanical engineer. In that time, I’ve done supervision, team leadership and work as an individual contributor. I have also interviewed new graduates and mid-career folks. While I may have interviewed a few gays and lesbians, I don’t think that I ever interviewed a transgender person.

During the time that I was an engineering supervisor, it was drilled into us that one of our most important functions was to eliminate or minimize liability and risk for the company. Since the company is very protective of its public image, what this means is that we should certainly avoid doing anything illegal that could reflect on the company. However, by extension, it also means avoiding things that look bad, even though it would be technically legal. It is a question of perception.

So, what if I had interviewed a transgender person? To me, interviewing was always a difficult process as I always wanted to take more time than I had. It was important to me to develop a rapport with people and attempt to understand them within the context of the position applied for. The more I understood, the better decision I could make.

The company has a pretty decent reputation regarding inclusion, same-sex partner medical benefits, support for marriage equality, etc. However, it isn’t perfect and sometimes everybody doesn’t get the E-mail. If I felt that a transgender candidate was a good fit technically, we would have had to have a long talk about the situation inside the company and where the person might be working. While this would be a very serious conversation, I would try to be as neutral as possible. When I make a recommendation to hire someone, I don’t want their response to be effected by the notion that I was trying to influence them one way or the other. My function is purely to explain the situation and requirements as best I can, answer questions as truthfully as I can, evaluate if they fit the employment situation and understand the abilities and aspirations of the candidate. I would hope that I would be able to evaluate the person and factor in their transgender status as appropriate. I would be disappointed if I did anything less.