10 Days off hrt...7 months down the drain...

[Myojine]

So june of 2012 i ended up in the hospital for suicide watch.
No, I didnt want to there, an agency for homeless youth called the local hospital becuase I was crying in their office during intake.
So I ended up in the hospital and they REFUSED to allow me to take my hormone therapy, even though it was perscribed by a physician.

Well 10 days off of it my body went into overdrive and i got a huge burst of testosterone and androgens. 2 months later i have zero breast mass, a lot of new facial hair and a permanent facial hair shadow. Im furious about this.
That hospitals policy destroy 7 months of hrt and my feminine appearance. I have to wear make up now to keep the shadow from being noticable.

Do you think i have a grounds for a medical malpractice law suit? Those 10 days i was refused HRT devistated my entire transiton up to that point.

[LeaP]

First, you have my sympathies. Without knowing more, though, it's impossible to say whether or not you have any solid grounds for a suit. Generally, a physician is given wide latitude in situations like this, even more so with an involuntary commitment (which is what it sounds like). If the doctor's medical judgement was that your HRT was contributing to your being suicidal, and he had sufficient knowledge and evidence to make such a judgement, you likely have no case. But there are an infinite number of possible approaches to this, so you'd have to have a lawyer look into the details ... and it sounds like you have no money.

[kimdl93]

Ask yourself this question: What would you do if you operated an agency for the homeless and had a client crying in the lobby? Was it not reasonable for them to act as they did? Before you answer, what circumstances brought you to the office for the homeless in the first place?

Ten days...yeah, a bit of a set back, but nothing more.

Other than that, I doubt that any of us would wish to offer legal advice.

[Melody Moore]

FFS, 10 days off HRT will NOT devastate your entire transition. Many trans people have to go off hormones
for different reasons I have to stop my hormones 2 weeks before my SRS. So my advice is simple... Move on!

[Myojine]

FFS, 10 days off HRT will NOT devastate your entire transition. Many trans people have to go off hormones
for different reasons I have to stop my hormones 2 weeks before my SRS. So my advice is simple... Move on!

I went from a full A cup to no breast mass whatsoever over a period of 2 months even after being back on estrogen for 1 1/2 months on a full mg above the previous dose i was taking.
Just so you know how much damage dropping off of spiro and e did.

[Melody Moore]

Myojine, considering you haven't really been on HRT all that long, you would not have had a lot to lose. Sorry.

And I seriously doubt that you would have lost all your breast mass from being off hormones for such a short amount of time.
I know a number of trans women who stopped for a number of years and went back on HRT and they have plenty of breast.

Legally you have no case of malpractice given the circumstances as to why you were put in hospital.
As I said Move on! Get back on HRT and carry on, because what else can you do? Keep crying about it?

[Myojine]

Myojine, considering you haven't really been on HRT all that long, you would not have had a lot to lose. Sorry.

And I seriously doubt that you would have lost all your breast mass from being off hormones for such a short amount of time.
I know a number of trans women who stopped for a number of years and went back on HRT and they have plenty of breast.

Legally you have no case of malpractice given the circumstances as to why you were put in hospital.
As I said Move on! Get back on HRT and carry on, because what else can you do? Keep crying about it?

/facepalm why did i take you off ignore...
I had a full A cup... But ofc this is just melody trolling as usual.
You know youre the reason I ahvent posted in months. Yeah, you.
I come back and see your wonderful face.. swell!

And yes I did loose all of it. I have photo documentation of it too. But old wise one knows eveyrthing even though the person shes talking to like an idiot has been studying physics and evolution for 2 1/2 years. YUP Gotta love the old ones.
What are you Jelous because im so young? That im ACTUALLY pretty? PLEASE
-ignored-

[Melody Moore]

I had a full A cup... But ofc this is just melody trolling as usual.
Jealous because you are young? Get real, at least I have some life experience. And as
for trolling, get real, I just gave you some simple advice to move on because is all you
seem to want to do is create more drama for yourself which you don't need from what
I already know about you. So stop making a mountain out of a molehill and just get back
on the HRT and carry on. If you don't like my advice then ignore me. I don't mind ;)

[Paulette]

Okay everyone take a deep breath and let it out slowly. Now that we are all calmer let just address the facts, you were placed into the mental health system by a doctor thus stopping you HRT will not subject him to a malpractice suit. I suggest that you talk with your personal doctor about the apparent lose of breast development and see if this is just a small speed bump on your road to being who you truly are. Myojine as young person you have so much life ahead of you, wasting time worrying about the past will only bring you down.

[Myojine]

Okay everyone take a deep breath and let it out slowly. Now that we are all calmer let just address the facts, you were placed into the mental health system by a doctor thus stopping you HRT will not subject him to a malpractice suit. I suggest that you talk with your personal doctor about the apparent lose of breast development and see if this is just a small speed bump on your road to being who you truly are. Myojine as young person you have so much life ahead of you, wasting time worrying about the past will only bring you down.

I already did, this morning infact. The doctor is getting blood tests from me in the labs, my next appointment is is on the 13th, and my doctor is going to up my dose.

[ReineD]

People who are on HRT can correct me, but I thought that any breast augmentation is irreversible, at least according to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_(male-to-female)#Changes)? And also, HRT has no effect whatsoever on facial hair?

Still Myo, I'm sorry for what you went through, especially the reason you were in the hospital in the first place. I know it may not be a consoling thought right now, but I'm sure that if you start up with HRT again you will soon get back to where you were before hand.

I hope that one member in particular sees this thread and responds to it. She went off of HRT for some months (I think she's back on now) and she may be able to help. If you like, you can PM me and I can see if I can find a link to the thread where she discussed this.

:hugs:

[Melody Moore]

ReineD,

You are correct, when you grow breast tissue it does not just go away. Anyone who has been on
HRT and wants to de-transition often needs to have a mastectomy to remove the breasts and this
is why I believe that Myojine's issues here are mostly psychological, and not physiological.

[Myojine]

People who are on HRT can correct me, but I thought that any breast augmentation is irreversible, at least according to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_(male-to-female)#Changes)? And also, HRT has no effect whatsoever on facial hair?

Still Myo, I'm sorry for what you went through, especially the reason you were in the hospital in the first place. I know it may not be a consoling thought right now, but I'm sure that if you start up with HRT again you will soon get back to where you were before hand.

I hope that one member in particular sees this thread and responds to it. She went off of HRT for some months (I think she's back on now) and she may be able to help. If you like, you can PM me and I can see if I can find a link to the thread where she discussed this.

:hugs:

The literature the doctor handed to me when I walked into her office a few months ago said that breast development will reverse if you dont continue HRT and the testosterone is allowed to take affect again. I'll get the document later, its in my partners storage unit. HRT doesn't stop or reduce facial hair, it mearly stops new facial hair growth for the most part.

And apparently you guys are missing the point. Im on HRT right now and have been since the middle of july, however I was off of it for the last week of june into july. The off time bascially "reset" my developement cycle. Thats what the doctor said to me this morning.

Those 10days halted the process, reintroduced a massive surge of testosterone and masculinizing androgens which were stopping the estrogen and spiro from even functioning.

[Michelle I]

I was on Vivelle Dot for about 1 1/2 years, I had a heart attack in May and have been off the patch since that date. I was experencing some breast growth and small phyical changes during the 1 1/2 years I was using it. Since I have been off of it, a little shrinkage back to their previous size has occurred but the main problem I encountered was my inner peace. While on the patch, I felt like my inner self and mind was meshing in a way that had never happened before. Since going off of it I have been more moody, more emotional and bad thoughts enter my brain.

[Traci Elizabeth]

In most states by law ANYONE admitted into a hospital for possible suicide attempt gets an automatic court order against them for involuntary psychiatric evaluation taking away all your legal rights until such time as the hospital staff psychiatrist releases you. They can and do post police at your door if you are a flight risk. Plan and simple!

It is impossible for me to believe that in 10 short days off hormones you had any physical changes. Like Melody, I will be off all of mine 2 weeks B/4 SRS and 30 days after. I don't think my 36C's are going anywhere in those 45 days. Now I might be climbing the walls and/or acting like a real bitch, and having ungodly hot flashes but NO "itti bitti titties" here.

[Inna]

OK I will come to the rescue of what Myojine is saying is and could be true. I have experienced devastation after my FFS, though I never really spoke of it, of loosing at least half the mass in breast tissue. I was off HRT regimen for 1.5 months and since the surgery was invasive I was forbidden to take any form of hormones rightfully so as they slow the immune system and tissue regeneration. So, I have experienced same disappointment seeing my breast deflate.
Said that, it took a while, about 2-3 months to get quickly back to the previous stage and as well to go beyond.
I know hon that it hurts and anger fulfills devastation, and feeling of revenge would be sweet, but just give in the thought that perhaps, just maybe, all things happen for exactly the reasons unknown to us yet fulfilling the prophecy of life unfolding. Maybe you had a tumor which formed in the breast tissue and by divinity of your predicament, such was able to deflate and disappear............will never know. Revenge is as much part of human psyche as is forgiveness, yin and yang of emotional capacity. Revenge however is of anger and builds and inflates into more and more dreadful state. Forgiveness is of serenity, and more of it brings yet more and more peace and fulfillment.

You are here to write this post, and so everything that happened was in the past and you know what Kung Fu Panda's line brilliantly states: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift, and that is why it's called the present"

[Tamara Croft]

You are correct, when you grow breast tissue it does not just go away.

You have just been proved wrong by Inna, who has just stated she lost her breast tissue by coming off hrt... so I'll thank you to knock off your attitude in this thread, because you are NOT a doctor, you do NOT know what caused it and quite frankly, your holier than thou attitude is getting on my last nerve, so give it a rest :Angry3: Any more bitching in this thread will have consequences.. you have been warned... goddit? good!

[Beth-Lock]

There are some issues in this thread that concern me, even though I am old, and you certainly have my complete sympathy.

I am seeing an endocrinologist and contemplating getting started on HRT. The more I learn though, the more complicated it seems. I do not doubt that you had problems that others did not. As I said HRT is a complicated matter. (But then living without it can be complicated too if you are trans.)

Putting people in psychiatric care is something else I have had recent experience of. It is hard I guess to avoid its being brutal and cruel, and doctors seem to be too busy to even try to alleviate this. Any experience of such involuntary holding is bound to upset the patient far more than those who have not been through it, and recently, can imagine. So again, I can understand why you are very angry, even if others seem to discount the impact this sort of treatment has on one. I do not. Luckily, it is easy to put this behind you, since life goes on and demands our attention, and we can hope the pain and damage will not be too serious in the end.

P.S. Suing doctors, no matter how outrageous their behaviour, is rarely satisfying, since they stick together, and back each other up.

[noeleena]

Hi,

The age of a person has a lot to do when one is on meds in this case H R T as i dont know the back history i cant give a good answer , as to how it will effect one . so what ill do is say this .

I have been off meds for two times first was 3 weeks 2nd was 11 weeks, because of surgery flights & a lot of trav. breasts lose was from an b down to a & it took 11 monthes to regain that lose,

I knew i would lose that amount as to the blockers it did not work on my body as iv said before, my body system is a little different.
As to body hair & face hair again depends on age mine aged 58 at the time,
i did change, the hair over the last few years has declined from 100 % down to 8% okay with my age an eperlater my very low does rate of one only med.

Is where i am as of now, Allso my own hormones have worked in my favour

The younger you are it is very different, & just by takeing more or higher dose rates will not in many case's do you any good other than incresse the likelyhood of blood clots & cancer,

I know of too many cases of death because of very high dose rates plus other major health issues so be very carefull ,


Just to check your body lose get another blood test & see where your levels are if your not happy about things, though 7 months is not a long time in reguard to long term meds .

A 10 day off meds will not produce much of a change .

for what its worth,

...noeleena...

[morgan51]

Personally I stopped hrt for 2and 1/2 years after being on it for about the same amount of time. I was devastated mentally and somewhat physically I did it to appease my wife. I had terrible anxiety increased facial hair growth and did loose a little mass in my breasts but that has already started to come back I've been back on hrt for about 2 months and my whole body is comming out of my funk! Good luck to you It seems we are all different as to how ht affects us and what results we get. I thing the break was good for me b/c It showed me how much better I do on them. Hugs Morgan

[linda allen]

I don't know anything about HRT, but your doctor should. As for a lawsuit, legal advice you get from a web forum is worth exactly what you pay for it - nothing! If you want to know if you can sue the hospital, contact a lawyer who specializes in medical malpractice.

My non-lawyer opinion - Anybody can sue, but I don't think you have a case that has a chance of winning.

[BRANDYJ]

I have a different slant on this in a sue happy world we have. In the first place, the OP was in a homeless shelter for youths. They feared for your life and in effect might well have saved your life by putting you in the hospital. I can only assume that both the shelter and the hospital provided their services free of charge to you. I know it might sound harsh, but you now want to sue a hospital that probably can't charge or bill you, and the thanks they get is a law suit? To me, it's just morally wrong. Sorry. I hope you are getting the help you need to simply live. And the ones you want to sue acted to keep you alive. To sue them is not a nice way of saying thank you. If you are homeless and perhaps jobless, you have a lot more to worry about then a little breast flesh in my opinion.

[Frances]

I had been on hormones for two years when I stopped for SRS. I had to stop for the two weeks before surgery and the 11 days at the recovery house. I lost my breasts completely, and the vellus hair on my chest became real hair again (I also started smelling differently). After surgery, I got back on Androcur for a while in order to help the Estrogen work better. The breasts did not come back. Almost a year and a half later, they had still not come back. I started Androcur again (it is a weak progestin) and my breasts finally came back.

So, in my case, two years of hormones down the drain (as far as breasts are concerned) in three weeks. It can happen.

[Felicity71]

Going off hormones for a period seemed to kickstart facial hairs, arm hair, leg hair, and a little chest hair.

[ReineD]

I lost my breasts completely

So now this makes three people in this thread who attest to reversed breast growth after stopping hormones.

Does anyone have the inclination and time to amend the wiki page? Their info is misleading and looking closer, there is not even documentation supporting the irreversible breast growth statement. Usually they're pretty good about amending info that is not supported.

I wonder how many thousands of M2Fs have read that page and how many have started HRT just to get breasts, thinking they are permanent and these M2Fs will stop when their breasts have grown.

[Inna]

So now this makes three people in this thread who attest to reversed breast growth after stopping hormones.

Does anyone have the inclination and time to amend the wiki page? Their info is misleading and looking closer, there is not even documentation supporting the irreversible breast growth statement. Usually they're pretty good about amending info that is not supported.

I wonder how many thousands of M2Fs have read that page and how many have started HRT just to get breasts, thinking they are permanent and these M2Fs will stop when their breasts have grown.

True, and further more, HRT is a stuff of life, it isnt an aspirin, or herbal supplement, it is a bio-chemical compound ( a biological software ) which resets cell metabolic responses! Metabolic responses are the language of the cells how they perform, how they communicate, how you exist! By going on, then off, then on again, and so on, an individual is Playing a Russian roulette. It isn't to say that for the desperate Transsexual woman getting hormones might many times be an act of desperation and actually despite the dangers could save her life, I know only too real what that feels like as I have done just the same. But I had a RESPECT towards this chemistry of life, the only life I was looking forward to.

So, HRT should only be the avenue to the new and true self, if other ulterior motives are at hand, think about it, get implants, get all the implants you thinking off, but if you just want to play around with dress up, fetish or what ever else you fancy, DO NOT go for the body and mind altering HRT, you may regret it if you do!!!!!

[Niya W]

Actually you are wrong. You still have legal rights. They oly way they can take them away is via a court hearing and they place you under conservatorship. Now there is a process to follow. After a 72 hour hold it then goes to a 14 day hold. At that point you get a court hearing and the judge decides. Even then you still have legal rights.

[Tamara Croft]

Wiki shouldn't be used in reference to anything, it's not reliable, they even say so themselves it's not credible...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use

[ReineD]

Wiki shouldn't be used in reference to anything, it's not reliable, they even say so themselves it's not credible...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Academic_use

Right. Like they say, it is a starting point for research, providing that any statement on their pages is sourced from credible research or material - which is often the case. For example, have a look at the 93 references at the bottom of the Hormone replacement therapy (male-to-female) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_(male-to-female)) page, which are predominately scientific studies, found in peer reviewed journals and research libraries. Those sources are credible.

This one "irreversible breast growth" fact, however, is not supported by a source material and it should be removed. I had looked at that page before and not noticed there is nothing supporting that claim. So someone needs to fix this on the Wiki page.

[Bree-asaurus]

This one "irreversible breast growth" fact, however, is not supported by a source material and it should be removed. I had looked at that page before and not noticed there is nothing supporting that claim. So someone needs to fix this on the Wiki page.

I think this happens a lot with transgender HRT. Nobody knows all the facts, but some people pretend that they do and make statements like "always" and "never" when really, nobody has any idea.

My own doctor even changed his opinion on some stuff regarding HRT. In the beginning, he was trying to help transsexuals out and was relying a lot on word of mouth. 200 trans patients later, he sees that some of the info that's out there isn't really substantiated.

[ReineD]

Right. I really like Wiki, because it is a good starting point for further research. And they've gotten a lot better in the last few years about sourcing their material credibly. You'd think there would be a key core of people working on the M2F & F2M pages though, who would constantly update the material or at least remove false data.

My own SO has been a contributor to material that has to do with her own research field and if you look behind the scenes at Wiki, often times the discussions over the credibility of a fact or a source is debated rather forecefully.

This is why I was hoping that one of our more research-minded transwomen would take it upon herself to fix the error on that page about the irreversible breast growth, or at least make a notation there is no citation to support that claim, since a lot of people do use Wiki. :)


EDIT - There. I did it myself. Now each of the "breast development" and "Enlarged nipples and areolae" under Irreversible Changes has a "citation needed" next to it. Hopefully someone will come along and either provide a study that supports this, or remove it entirely.

[giuseppina]

I don't know much about being on hormones and their effects, as I don't identify as TS.

I do know what the inside of a psychatric ward looks like. I was voluntarily admitted by a psychiatrist for what I now recognise as PTSD. There wasn't much to keep people occupied other than a common TV set. I could have walked away had I chosen to do so. I wasn't comfortable there, and it didn't do much good other than a taste of group therapy.

If three other cases of HRT effects reversal apparently similar to Myojine's are on this board, chances are good this issue has been written up in the professional journals somewhere.

Myojine, it doesn't surprise me that you reacted in the way you did, but I don't think you have much of a case for malpractice. I do, however, question the psychiatrist's decision to discontinue the HRT apparently without consulting your doctor managing your transition, as you were in a rather fragile state and any changes can have serious consequences. I was somewhat suicidal when I was admitted to the psych ward, and have some idea of how you feel.

One thing that antidepressants don't do is change the negative thought patterns that go with depression. That is something you have to do yourself while you work with a therapist. It is hard work, but it can be done.

And Bree, the thought of a doctor relying on word of mouth to treat a patient scares me. If s/he doesn't know what s/he is doing, s/he has a professional and statutory obligation to refer you to a more qualified practitioner.

[CharleneT]

The problem with hormones is their affects are very complex and directly relate to other hormones in your body. It is hard to make black and white predictions of their affects or what happens when they are out of balance. Is breast growth permanent if HRT is continued long enough ? Well, in most cases, yes it is - although the papers I've read (don't have the refs handy, sorry) said that there is often some reversal if HRT is stoped. As we can see from some of the members stories, it also can reverse a lot. Prior to my GRS I stopped HRT for 30 days, and then another 30 days afterwards. I cannot tell for sure how much reversal might have happened because I had a AM. But, just before the GRS there had been no change. That is the more common result.

Mjone you are young and your system may be more reactive to hormonal changes. I'll bet that over 7 months the growth will return. I am no doctor though ...

As for a malpractice suit, check with a lawyer who specializes in that. I think you will find that they say you don't have a lot of hope of winning it. Most lawyers who do those suits work on a contingency basis, so you can tell real quick whether they think you will win: they only get paid if you win. Hence they won't be much interested in your case if they do not think it is a viable one. So if they seem to say you have a case, or give a lot of sympathy - and then back off taking the case ... there's you answer. Decisions made in emergency medicine (ER's and those made by paramedics) are looked at somewhat differently. They are given more latitude for treatment because they do not know you or your history.

Your experience with facial hair is curious, there are no combinations of HRT that affect its growth much at all ? Body hair for sure, but facial ?

[linda allen]

I have a different slant on this in a sue happy world we have. In the first place, the OP was in a homeless shelter for youths. They feared for your life and in effect might well have saved your life by putting you in the hospital. I can only assume that both the shelter and the hospital provided their services free of charge to you. I know it might sound harsh, but you now want to sue a hospital that probably can't charge or bill you, and the thanks they get is a law suit? To me, it's just morally wrong. Sorry. I hope you are getting the help you need to simply live. And the ones you want to sue acted to keep you alive. To sue them is not a nice way of saying thank you. If you are homeless and perhaps jobless, you have a lot more to worry about then a little breast flesh in my opinion.

Brandy, I have to agree with you 100%. The rest of us are paying the bills for care for the poor and now they want to sue?

As for losing breast mass when hormones are stopped, if it were that simple, genetic females would become flat chested after menopause.

[Frances]

As for losing breast mass when hormones are stopped, if it were that simple, genetic females would become flat chested after menopause.

Genetic females do not have testicules.

Plus we are talking about a few months of breast tissue growth in an adult male, not a lifetime of growth in female with only adrenal glands producing testosterone.

[Raquel June]

When hormones make your breasts grow there are a lot of different things going on. You have to build the whole structure of glands. I think everybody is different as far as what percentage of their breast volume is fat and how much is the actual mammary glands and whatever else.

It's my understanding that when you stop taking hormones, the glands themselves aren't going to go away, but they are going to atrophy and deflate. And GGs who hit menopause do get saggier boobs. I don't think that's all due to gravity. They lose some perkiness without the estrogen. And like Frances said, if you actually have testosterone, too, you're probably in even more trouble.

But bodybuilders who get gynocomastia have to get it surgically removed. And I think if we go off HRT we might lose breast volume, but what we've gained in the actual development of a mammary structure is probably still there, even if it atrophies.

Everybody is different, though. When someone takes a lot of progesterone in their HRT, or when a GG is pregnant, sometimes her breasts will grow and sometimes they won't. And when she starts to lactate, they'll definitely get bigger. Usually that is just the glands filling up, and your breasts will lose a lot of volume once you stop lactating. But I've also known several GGs who permanently retained an extra cup size or more after having a baby.

I went off HRT for a year. It did cause me to sprout some sparse facial hair. I lost some breast volume, but I only had a small A-cup to begin with. All I really lost was some of the perkiness. But everything seems fine being back on HRT. After a month I was definitely back to where I was before. I was up to a large A-cup in a couple months. And now I'm a solid B-cup.

So in the end it wasn't so bad. I needed to get a couple touchup sessions of laser. No big deal. And I'm 36. Hopefully you'll be fine. You'll probably be better than fine since you're young.

[Kathryn Martin]

Sorry but your comment just hit the "most ignorant" list in my book. I am one of those that pays a huge amount of taxes every year but to imply anyone owed me anything because of it is just so stupid, male redneck I cannot even imagine how anyone would make such a remark. If this is a malpractice case (which I doubt for a variety of reasons [I do malpractice litigation]) but assuming it were, the fact that someone provided free services (free services are paid services under Title 19 after all it's just free for the patient, the social safety net at work) then doctors are under same obligations to practice with the same due diligence and competence as when they work for a paying patient.

You also did not fare any better with your comment about breast mass. Sometimes people should be careful to speak to things they have no knowledge of. It is a well known fact that post menopausal women lose glandular tissue and elasticity due to the precipitous drop in estrogen and progesterone production in the body. It is likewise with women of transsexual history. Especially if you transitioned as an older person (that is not between 20 and 25) there is a significant impact and usually quite quickly. I lost one cup size as a result of going off hormones for surgery for a total of three weeks. So instead of insulting people it may be better to get informed, and leave your misogynist views out of this forum.


Brandy, I have to agree with you 100%. The rest of us are paying the bills for care for the poor and now they want to sue?

As for losing breast mass when hormones are stopped, if it were that simple, genetic females would become flat chested after menopause.

[Sandra]

....and before this gets into a free for all this thread is closed.