Transgender: caught in flux

[Frédérique]

...some CD’ers don’t like being called transgendered.

I was researching something for another written piece, perusing Wikipedia for information, when I came across a link to transgender. Curiosity got the better of me, so I made a side trip to the wonderful world of TG, a place where I am supposed to be, according to many members on this site. Some of you may know that I slice and dice the term "transgender" on a regular basis – I don’t feel I am transgendered, in fact I am merely a crossdresser, so my place in this community is questionable at best. I like being here, but I feel like I don’t belong. Question everything, right?

Anyway, according to Wikipedia, “the precise definition of transgender remains in flux.” This means that the term is moving or passing in continued succession, i.e. flowing, and precision can only be dreamt of at this point in time. I don’t feel I am transgendered because I do not go from one gender to the other, PERIOD, rather I go back and forth, as the word “cross” may indicate. I transform from M to F by way of appearance, but I always return to my original state. When I am crossdressed I am a male in female clothing, no more, and no less, but some people insist that my crossdressing is a transgendered act. Hmmm...

That’s OK, but, if anything, I become a temporary TG when I dress up, not only in the eyes of the community, but in the eyes of the world as well. Labels seem to be important these days, but I fail to understand why this is – is individuality such a bad thing? I dress-up, therefore I make myself transgendered in doing so? That’s a neat trick, especially when I remain male UNDER my clothes. Luckily, Wikipedia has provided some standards for all you TG wannabes (me included, I guess). Do you, the MtF crossdresser, “fit” any of the following transgendered criteria?

1) "Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."

OK, I “move” between M and F by way of clothing, but am I moving between (or combining) conventional gender roles? Good question. If I’m wearing male clothing, but I’m engaged in what many would call a female “role,” does that make me transgendered? What if I dress-up in my favorite female outfit and do something only a male might do? My appearance could accurately be called unambiguous (use your imagination), but, apparently, my actions don’t make sense. I eschew the traditional male uniform but remain male, albeit a modified version of one – does this make me transgendered? Perhaps we should initiate a discussion about conventional gender roles, since society is apparently wrapped up in outward appearances – if a male wears an apron while doing something a woman is expected to do, is this a TG act? If you ask me, it’s a very slippery slope out there, and grabbing a fluctuating concept like transgender can be problematic...

2) "People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."

“This is what I have to work with,” as Hedwig once said. I don’t feel I was “assigned” a sex, rather it just turned out this way. True, all expectations and my subsequent behavioral patterns were based on the genitals I found in my possession, but a gradual turn towards the feminine, accompanied by a gradual turning away from the masculine, had more to do with circumstances brought on by mental trauma, and less to do with a general dislike of one’s “equipment.” In short, I don’t feel that the description of my “self” that came about was false, but it could be slightly incomplete. Of course, I could argue that everything is THERE, within ME, in regards to gender, ready to be exploited or enjoyed, whatever the case may be. Dressing in girl’s clothes for the sheer joy of it has nothing to do with my genitals, in fact I will often re-establish contact with the latter as soon as the panties come off...

3) "Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."

I identify as a male, but an effeminate male, thank you. I was effeminate before I began to crossdress, and the crossdressing, in this instance, was a foregone conclusion, or an expression that merely verified certain innate feelings. To me, MALE is not an assumed gender. I am male, and I will wear the clothes of the other gender on occasion – this amounts to non-presentation of my birth gender, so proponents of TG may have a case against me after all. However, I’m here to say that I am definitely male underneath the layers of feminine finery. If I am presented with a choice of two boxes, M or F, and I have to check one, I will unhesitatingly check “M.” Not doing so would be silly, since I AM a male. I may want to look like a girl, but I’m a boy – I don’t see how I can be accurately termed transgendered when I have no doubts about my identity. It doesn’t change when I dress up, either. I simply wear women’s clothing and have fun doing so – I know that I have created a pleasant atmosphere for myself, a brief vacation from masculinity, but no more...

BTW, when I say “effeminate,” I mean I harbor some of the qualities traditionally associated with women. If I exhibit tenderness or gentleness, I am effeminate to other, more traditional males, and everyone else as well. All males have the capacity to be effeminate, but few get in touch with these feelings they are not really supposed to embrace. Many males have female characteristics, either expressed openly or kept out of sight according to what the situation is. Also, there are plenty of effeminate males who don’t crossdress, and there are many masculine males who DO crossdress. You could certainly make a case for ALL people being a mixture of the two genders, a natural by-product of human evolution, but being incorporated (along gender lines) and being transgendered are two different things – it’s literally a mixed bag. I’m not in the process of going from M to F in a straight line, rather I am going back and forth, retaining my gender identity, continuing to “describe” myself, tweaking convention along the way, and having fun doing it…

I may transvest (crossdress), but I do not transgender. I don’t mind being called transgendered, for lack of a better, more "fitting" description, but let’s be accurate, please...

What are your thoughts about this “in flux” term transgendered? Are you really TG?

PS – Oh, sorry - WARNING: long post! :doh:

[Marleena]

Ahh another thought provoking thread, my friend! You convinced me long ago that your are a crossdresser but I prefer to call you Freddy.:) The LGBT alliance decided to protect and represent crossdressers under the TG umbrella. So they are the guilty party here.:) You are not alone my friend, others feel the same as you do. I think labels are a pain in the a$$ with so many variables that I'll refrain from labeling mysef for simplicities sake. I'm just Marleena when I'm here with the rest of you.

[NathalieX66]

Frederique, insightful as ever....thank you.

I'm cool with masculine males and effeminate males/feminine women and masculine women....and everything in between. We are all a spectrum. We are snowflakes
Just like snowflakes, everyone of us is different. That's humanity in it's raw form.

I enjoy dressing as a woman. I enjoy going places as a woman.....and I enjoy being a man.

Peace & love.

[Lorileah]

Ah, yes "wikipedia" the end all and final...oh wait they just updated ...

Since Wikipedia is written by anyone who happens to own an Apple IIe or higher I would not put much credence into what is posted there. That is sort of like citing Jerry Lewis on Quantum Physics.

Trans =across (one definition) Gender=relating to male and female. Thus as you say transgender is dressing like the opposite gender.

Since Merriam-Webster is more cited and less fluid ": of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth" All dictionaries change and grow with the times and the scientific community is one of the worst. However the medical definition is the same as above.

You can call yourself whatever you like, but when the world needs to have a common ground they will choose a word. Since Latin is a Dead language it is often used since it doesn't flux as you say. Trans..never changes. It's use depends on the end. And when things like laws are written they use words that encompass instead of delineating every "Tom" "Richard" and "Harry". They use words like people.

Tomorrow someone could amend what you quoted from Wiki to say all Transgendered people have three legs and a horn.

[busker]

What are your thoughts about this “in flux” term transgendered? Are you really TG?

PS – Oh, sorry - WARNING: long post! :doh: [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

This question reminds me of a joke that I head about 40 years ago.
A Catholic man had a Jewish neighbor. The Catholic guy was forever chiding the Jew about eating meat on Friday. So one Friday the Jew decided he would put the Catholic in his place. so he set up his barbeque , had his chicken out and when he knew the Catholic guy was watching over the fence, he chanted as the chicken lay on the grill, "born a chicken, raised a chicken," and passing the fork over the chicken said, "you're a fish".

[Jordan-NH]

Exceptionally good and thought provoking read. I personally have never been one to put much into words. I often get lectured about using non-PC terms, but I'm of the mentality that a word only has a much power as you are willing to give it. I'm then told that's an easy statement to make as a white male. I then have to bite my tongue and bring to light my hidden side which I think does give me some insight into being looked down upon or spoken poorly of because of what I am.

What you said got me thinking though, if we lived in a society where hanging a rubber chicken around your neck was the quintessential female trait, would we all be doing that instead? I know a lot of women that hate that they have to shave their legs, yet I love to do it. Odd I can love something that many women hate. So what is it that truly makes us identify with one gender or the other?

Besides what a word may or may not mean or what society pushes upon us, I'm pleased to say that I am exactly the same as you. As much as I love dressing up and putting on the physical facade of appearance and movements, I am still always very much in connection with my male side and I'm not sure I would ever want to change that. There are definitely days that I wish the boobs and vagina were real, but that has never been trumped by my wish to return back to my true form at some undetermined point down the road.

[Silmaril]

We are all a spectrum. We are snowflakes. Just like snowflakes, everyone of us is different. That's humanity in it's raw form.

I really like this; I'd say "It says it all," but I have more I'd like to add... :battingeyelashes:

I think the matter lies not in what "trans" means, but in what "gender" means. I subscribe to the belief that gender is more complicated than chromosomes; it's a combination of DNA, presentation, orientation, roles, and behaviors, all viewed (sometimes mercilessly) through the lens of "tradition" or sometimes (unfortunately) "stereotype."

For each of those dimensions, you can find ways to step away from the extreme society expects you to dwell in, but there are varying degrees of social tolerance depending which dimension we're talking about. I'd say a guy who crosses his leg at the knee is less at risk than the guy who will cry openly when he is sad, who is less at risk than the guy who speaks with a higher pitch and uses a lot of hand gestures.

...all of whom are less at risk than the guy who shows up wearing a gown.

But I'd argue they have all dared to step away from the norm/tradition/stereotype. And for that reason, I'd argue that--to some degree--they are all transgendered. I think everyone is ...except possibly the Marlboro Man.

Gender isn't like musical chairs, as if when the music stops and you have to sit in either the girl chair or the boy chair. There are a lot more chairs in this game than society likes to admit. It's just that those chairs all come in shades of grey, and some of them bother people a lot more than others.

Freddy, I don't know why this topic vexes you so. It seems to me that rather than arguing to prove that one isn't transgendered, the more productive argument might be to prove that pretty much everyone is transgendered. if everyone is transgendered, then gender itself becomes an illusion.

Or, paraphrasing from Syndrome in The Incredibles, "When everyone is transgendered, no one will be."

That's my thinking anyway.

[Cassandra Lynn]

I don’t feel I am transgendered because I do not go from one gender to the other, PERIOD, rather I go back and forth, as the word “cross” may indicate.


Funny, i seem to recall having this convo on another site a few yrs back and the person i was 'in debate' with used the analogy of a ship crossing the ocean; "transatlantic" or "transcontinental".
As if once the ship reached it's port that was the end, one and done.
Are we then to assume that trans= across means there's no crossing back?


If pressed to assign myself some lettering for referencing i use TG/CD in hopes it might assuage anyone's feelings.

[PretzelGirl]

Ah, but a transatlantic voyage always comes back. It would be mighty expensive to keep sending ships to Asia and then you have to keep building more because they never come back. Trans is back and forth.

The thing is that we need to go with common usage no matter what we feel. If the world looks at us and says we are all transgendered, then we are. Words don't always link perfectly to their base meanings. They take hold based on common usage and end up defined by that usage.

[Leah Lynn]

Should I really screw it up and say I have gender dysphoria?

[Veronica27]

Freddy, I don't know why this topic vexes you so. It seems to me that rather than arguing to prove that one isn't transgendered, the more productive argument might be to prove that pretty much everyone is transgendered. if everyone is transgendered, then gender itself becomes an illusion.

Or, paraphrasing from Syndrome in The Incredibles, "When everyone is transgendered, no one will be."

That's my thinking anyway.

Those of us who do not feel that we are transgendered are often chided on here for being overly concerned about labels. However, in actuality it is they who are hung up on this issue, insisting that we all be labelled transgendered. My concern is not so much over the terms themselves, but rather that they be accurate from both a linguistic standpoint as well as a descriptive one. Crossdresser is not totally satisfactory in this regard, but it is much better than transgender which linguistically is a meaningless word.

Gender is primarily the categorizing of words as being applicable to either the male sex, the female sex or either or neither. The decision as to which category they belong is an arbitrary one decided upon by an evolving culture. This is nowhere as significant in the English language as it is in others such as French where the word for almost every inanimate object is assigned a "gender" and requires the use of the appropriate French forms of "the" and "a". The genders are described as masculine, feminine or neutral. Common useage through the years has led to the incorrect use of the word gender as a synonym for the word sex. But as human beings, we do not possess a gender, but rather we possess our own unique blend of characteristics and qualities that make us who we are. As Silmaril put it so eloquently, there are many dimensions to this subject, all of which carry varied opinions as to the "gender", of each dimension, depending upon the culture, the era, and a host of other subjective determinants. Even if we accept that the term now extends beyond its original reference to language, and is now applicable to humans, what combination of qualities will we select to label some individuals as masculine, some as feminine and some as trans.

The application of the term gender to human beings is indeed an illusion, whether we stick with the original sense of the word as a linguistic concept, or allow the expansion of it to be synonymous with sex. If gender exists, everyone is transgendered and hence no one is transgendered. We do not need to take it further by pointing out the inaccuracy of the prefix "trans", which by its original Latin meaning implies a "one way trip" as opposed to a "round trip". Nor do we need to dwell on the fact that it imparts a "condition" on us that may or may not be true.

But the crux of the argument is that most who consider themselves to be CD's do not argue against the use of Transgender for those who feel that it is more appropriate for them. We simply oppose the insistance on it being descriptive of all. We are all individuals and are urged to be true to ourselves. That is all we are doing. If an umbrella term is needed, let's find a more accurate and all inclusive one. All transgendered crossdress, but not all crossdressers are transgendered.

Veronica

[Veronica27]

For those who question the arguments about "trans" being a one way journey, think of the building of the transcontinental railways. They were built once, from one point to another. (Okay, some were built from each end and met in the middle). The trains go back and forth, but the original building of the railroad was a one way trip. The railroad itself remains a single span from one point to another. It is the trains that go back and forth, not the railroad. From Latin, trans means across, beyond or on the other side. Trans is correct for such things as "transport of goods", "transmition of TV and radio signals" and "transexual", all of which refer to a one way movement of someone or something from one place or condition to another. Common useage has extended its use beyond its primary meaning, but I look at such things as being the result of cultural laziness as opposed to logical evolution of the language. For back and forth or round trip, we should be using wording similar to reciprocal or alternate or swinging (although the last mentioned has also taken on incorrect meanings). "Cross" comes as close as anything to a simple solution.

Veronica

Veronica

[Frédérique]

What you said got me thinking though, if we lived in a society where hanging a rubber chicken around your neck was the quintessential female trait, would we all be doing that instead?

Could be! If a man wears a carpenter’s tool belt for a short time, does that make him a carpenter? If I wear a beret, does that send a signal to everyone that I am a sissified intellectual, or perhaps even a homosexual? What if I couldn’t find my OTHER hat, so I (consciously)grabbed the beret – if I like wearing the latter, and continue to do so now and then, does that begin to transform me in some way?

Recently, Neil Armstrong died, and I thought about the Moon landings. Neil went to the Moon, and, for a short time, he was a resident of the Moon, the first of small, select, lunar “community.” However, he came back to Earth, resuming his existence as an Earthling. He had experienced trans-lunar insertion (TLI), but he came back, a round trip, just like MtF crossdressing…
:doh:


Freddy, I don't know why this topic vexes you so. It seems to me that rather than arguing to prove that one isn't transgendered, the more productive argument might be to prove that pretty much everyone is transgendered. if everyone is transgendered, then gender itself becomes an illusion.

It doesn’t “vex” me – I just find it interesting to dissect accepted terms that nobody seems to think too much about. I’m trying NOT to do this, believe me, but since we MtF crossdressers are included under the TG “umbrella,” I like to see what I’m up against – if they’re going to label me as one thing or another, aren’t I allowed to examine the label (at least)? This IS a discussion forum, after all…

I don’t mind being called transgendered. I may already be transgendered, according to the broad definitions that pass for terminology these days, which says a lot about so-called individuality. I can argue all the live long day (which is not my intention, BTW), but I know I will encounter those who INSIST on taking certain things for granted – in many ways the assumption that all MtF crossdressers are transgendered is just the same as assuming all MtF CD’ers MUST be gay. It can’t hurt to poke a few holes in these dogmatic ideas from time to time, since questioning everything is a healthy (and necessary) aspect of the human condition…

I don’t see how all people could be transgendered, endlessly in transit from one gender to the other, but all people definitely contain a blend of the genders, showing one or the other to varying degrees – crossdressing, especially the MtF variety, is an excellent example of this. By all means call me transgendered – I won’t mind, but I may ask you a few questions…
:straightface:

[ColleenA]

For me, I readily see myself as a cross-dresser but I don't identify as transgendered.

When I physically put on female clothing, I mentally take on some of the behaviors of a woman. I definitely have a fantasy of being female, with breasts, vagina, sexy physique, etc., but I remain grounded in the reality that I don't have what it takes to be a woman - physically, mentally, emotionally, nor in many other ways.

When I dress for arousal purposes, which I still do at times after all these decades, I focus more on the physical attributes I would enjoy having - and having stimulated. At these times, lingerie is more important than the rest of my wardrobe.

When I dress to relax (exclusively around the house), I want to be free to let out the feminine side of my nature as well as to enjoy wearing pretty items such as short skirts, blouses and heels. Sure, in ways it would be nice to actually be female, but at these times, I am not dwelling so much on body parts.

Never have I seen myself as a woman (or a woman trapped in a man's body - a term popular in the '60s and '70s that apparently has become passe), nor have I entertained the notion of transitioning. In the end, I guess you could say I am a heterosexual male who started with a fetish and ended with a lifestyle.

And that is why I don't view myself as transgendered - or as part of the LGBTQ community except as an ally.

I have friends who are gay, and I support full equal rights for them - in the workplace, in the military, in marriage, etc. However, I have no interest in hearing about anything to do with man-on-man sex, such as their wild weekend getaways (though woman-on-woman sex can be titillating).

I've dated a TS woman, starting when she was early in her transition and lasting more than five years. In fact, on many levels, seeing and understanding how she was a woman her whole life, despite any physical pre-GRS flaw, highlighted my own non-transgenderness.

I can accept people most anywhere on the sexuality or the gender spectrum. But when I've been at LGBTQ events or centers, I don't feel I am part of their community. I am too straight for the sexuality part and too male for the gender identification part.

[Silmaril]

It doesn’t “vex” me – I just find it interesting to dissect accepted terms ... if they’re going to label me as one thing or another, aren’t I allowed to examine the label (at least)? This IS a discussion forum, after all…

Of course! ...and I certainly hope nothing in my reply implied I'd have it any other way. :o

Your post prompted me to do some dissecting of my own. I agree with Veronica: it's a bit of a linguistic trap. My instinct is to start by establishing what is meant by "gender." If we're talking about the journey (trans) from here to there, I'm inclined to establish an understanding of the starting and ending points before I analyze the journey.

Where gender represents the end points, I'm just not sold (for the reasons I wrote above) that there's that much difference between "here" and "there." Our culture likes to polarize and think in terms of black & white, but in fact it's all very relative and personal. Again, I hark back to where I started: Nathalie's snowflakes ...which arguably is also where I should have stopped. :heehee:

[Krististeph]

[QUOTE=Lorileah;2951892]Ah, yes "wikipedia" the end all and final...oh wait they just updated ...

Since Wikipedia is written by anyone who happens to own an Apple IIe or higher I would not put much credence into what is posted there. That is sort of like citing Jerry Lewis on Quantum Physics.



Lori- please see Dr. Britney Spears' dissertation on semiconductor physics... http://britneyspears.ac/physics/basics/basics.htm

This will teach to not to be so glib in your comments! :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Hey- if it wasn't true= they wouldn't put it on the internet....

[Krististeph]

Oh Freddy, what are we going to do about this? perhaps we should call you "trans-fluxed" Hey, there's an attractive label. I'm serious, we HAVE to label what you are- if you don't have a label (regardless of whether or not it is accurate) how are we going to be able to sort you into a bin and move on to important things like deciding how much and what type of junk mail and free credit report offers to send you? Come on- you are holding up progress on our economic recovery here- give us a label so we can somehow try to use you or take your money without us having to put any effort or care into it.

Sheesh, for all your writing, you really don't like co-operating very much, do you? I need to get the kids loaded in the minivan and run to costco to get a 50 pound box of pre-formed burgers (60% lean) for the sunday bbq brunch (we have 8 people coming over) and you are taking up my time because I have to stop and think about how I can con you out of your money. I mean, why ELSE would you exist?

how dare you buy women's clothes, but you are a male? I can't select both those boxes at the same time on my bulk mailing screen! WTF? Oh sure, we _could_ add a 'crossdresser' checkbox, but that would take time to do. and you don't even want to be classified as that.

Hmmm.. good thing no one else in the ENTIRE WORLD is like that... "Ass mode: OFF"

Frederique- there are no words to describe you- except those that you so prolifically write- You are one in a little over 7 billion. Fining the right label is almost like trying o learn a language from a dictionary- can't do it- dictionary contains NO information- only self references.

I love it when our PBS channel tells me the programs was brough to me by 'viewer's like you'.... I just snicker and think of 'gosh, i wonder where all those other cheerleader outfit wearing jocks who fly, shoot, do kung fu, love astrophysics, teach, invent, sew, etc, etc, etc are?'...

nobody is like you, and labels, even broad ones, are never even close.

no- you don't 'transgender'- you just do a different part of you for a while. So part of you it rather female. Better than being part chipmonk.

but more important- you communicate about it- you still make that effort to link up with the rest of the world. That's a lot more that so many of us do.

Labels? Okay, here the the exact label that perfectly describes you, and no one else but you: X-1000-0000-0001 (ver 1). There. Unique. i challenge anyone to find a label the better describes you. or, you cold just use your name. Everyone here already knows you better than any label could ever describe.

How about "in progress"? "Ad-hoc"? "Women dress how they want to and so do I?" (apologies to the Izzard)....

Personally, i like my rough labels- In practice- i'm more CD than TG- but I think my mind is either TG or a totally other mix of male and female or even something different.

Ahhh.. what the heck do I know? I'm just sitting around dressed in a cute skirt suit, putting off doing my homework, just like i've done for the past 40 years... (the homework part, that is). :angel::alien::evilbegon:cute::cheer::chained::str ugglin:sb::surrender:smug::stirthepot:.... etc.

Kris

[KellyJameson]

I do not think of transgendered as something someone does but as a word that tries to capture who they are and because of who they are they give expression to this by what they do by conscious choice and unconscious behavior.

I also do not think someone else can decide for you if you are transgendered,this is a personal experience that must be determined by each individual.

Others may offer an opinion but each person must decide for themselves.

For me the word transgendered is always about unconscious identity that may or may not be conscious but is distinctly different than being an "effeminate male"

I'm cautious with the word effeminate because I do not think of someone who is gentle, nurturing, sensitive, warm, feeling,ect.. as being effeminate but elevated above his fellow humans who swim in a sewer of fear driven aggressive behavior.

These behaviors and qualities are often absent in females so they are human abilities and qualities independant of being one or the other.

In my mind identity is chosen for you even though you decide to adopt your identity in the first years of life, it is consciously "unconsciously" decided in that you do not consciously know you are deciding what gender you are so it is a "felt" decision of who you know you are that you than "label" and it is done by being with others and
"feeling" who they are and when they "feel" like you than you know yourself through them.

People told me I was a boy but this had no meaning to me because I was already a "girl" so I subconsciously ignored (rejected) their definitions.

The problems come from others treating you based on what they perceive you to be and not who you are because this separates you from yourself and you lose your identity causing an existential crisis which appears to others as mental illness.

[melisa-melisa]

Freddy~ That's quite the navel gazing. Got Lint?