Are the wives and SO's who try to impose DADT on us fundamentally control freaks...

[Leslie Langford]

.. deep down in their hearts?

I "get" that for many women, a partner's desire to crossdress can be very upsetting. Their rigid socialization as to what male and female roles "should" be, perhaps strongly-held, fundamentalist religious beliefs, the Pandora's Box of trust issues concerning other areas that gets opened up when the CDer finally reveals himself after many years - or even worse, when the wife or SO stumbles onto that fact accidentally - often makes it very hard for them to accept that side of us.

And so begins the long descent into DADT for those couples who still want to keep the marriage or relationship intact, despite the fact that the wives or SO's prefer to dwell on the banks of "de-Nile" after the big reveal...

But it occurs to me that this unyielding opposition to our crossdressing - especially if it means never talking about it again, forcing us underground, making us hide our female clothes from their eyes, refusing to meet the "other girl" or even seeing pictures of her to validate her existence - all of these things must be indicative of more deep-seated issues.

To put it bluntly, these wives and SO's must be control freaks at heart.

My wife prides herself in being assertive, opinionated, and no-body's fool. But she is also very rigid in many other aspects of her life, is a stickler for "following the rules", and has considerable disdain for others who are more free-spirited and willing to follow their hearts and be themselves regardless of what others might think (such as crossdressers - no surprise there). In her mind, these types of people are self-indulgent slackers who need a dose of tough love to get them back onto the straight and narrow. And of course, as she gets older, my wife gets more and more set in her ways...

I, on the other hand, have begun to embrace "Leslie" fully in the last few years and have allowed her to blossom while still trying to adhere as much as possible to my wife's DADT strictures as a way of preserving domestic harmony. And so, we have a classic case of the irresistible force meeting the immovable object, and the outcome is often not pretty.

So my question to the other ladies here on this forum who are laboring under similar circumstances comes down to:

"Are your wives and SO's equally controlling in all other aspects of their (and your) lives, and has their strong aversion to your crossdressing less to to with that activity itself, and more to do with exercising their control over something that they simply do not agree with, and that their opinions must prevail at all costs?"

It would be interesting to see how my situation (perception?) compares with that of others here...

[Thera Home]

Hi Leslie

My situation I believe is similar but different if that makes any sense.:eek:
My wife's loving rejection of my crossdressing is more of a woman thing(something Im desparatly trying to figure out) instead of a contolling situation. She's just Hell Bent on that this is something a man should not be doing but to my amazement is becoming more tolerating of it. Is it become of the love between us? Sometimes it makes me wonder. Whatever the case it is a B*T*H working through this (challenge?) and I know that it has made our love stronger for some odd reason.

Thera

[Eryn]

I count my self very lucky to have an accepting spouse. We are closer and do many more things together than we did before she knew about Eryn. We socialize with other CDers and their spouses who are in a similar situation and we all have a great time. It really is no different than any other avocation where husbands get together because they share a common interest but then the couples socialize in a much more general way.

We've often spoken about the DADT situations faced by some of our CDing friends and see it as a tragedy for both parties. The CDer is harmed because it is impossible to be told not to talk about something without it being interpreted as shameful. The spouse is harmed because she is excluded from a significant part of her husband's life and the fun of associating with a very interesting group of friends.

Unfortunately, there is little that will cure DADT situations. The "line in the sand" has been drawn and absolute edicts are nearly impossible to rescind or modify. If the cause of the edict is religious there is little hope because the person has already decided that their religion is more important than their spouse. If the cause is sociological there might be a glimmer of hope, but it is likely that the person is clinging to the simplistic view that CDing as a fetish that will either go away or be cured. That can be addressed with education, but only if the person is open to being educated. If they're counting on their "tough love" to cure their spouse they won't be open to learning about CDing at all.

Overall, I think that the best approach is to set a good example for the general public. CDers are going out more than ever these days. When we're out with a large group of CDers and spouses it is pretty obvious. It's also obvious that we're all getting along well and otherwise exist normally in society. It may be that some of the onlookers are spouses who someday may have "the talk" with their husbands. They might remember the CDers they saw and realize that we are part of society too and that GGs coexist very happily with CDers. If that prevents a DADT situation from being created in the first place it can be counted as a small victory.

[Leslie Langford]

You make a number of very valid points here, Eryn.

I, too, have gotten to know a number of GG's in "Leslie" mode in the last 5 years that I have been out and about en femme, and not only are they amazingly supportive, they also seem to genuinely like "Leslie", enjoy her company, and are quite intrigued by her overall.

I realize that there is a different dynamic at play here, and it is far different for a GG to be married to a CDer and accept him, as such as opposed to only having a superficial relationship with him the way a platonic female friend would. Hits way too close to home when a marriage or a similar committed relationship is involved...

But I do cherish these GG friends in a very special way, as their unconditional acceptance of "Leslie" shows that this is possible, and contrary to what my wife might claim not "all" women are put off by crossdressers. So to that end, these GG friends have provided a much needed balance to my life, helped "Leslie" feel good about herself, and allowed her to spread her wings the way she has in the last few years.

[Anna B]

Hi Leslie.

Great that you have GG friends as you do, and long may it continue. I'm jealous!

However, I have heard a saying that girls like a man to be a CD, but not their man! How does that strike?

[darla_g]

I asked this question of my wife and her response is that its not being a control freak at all! She says that sometimes it is a matter of safety in some cases. Crossdressing is not universally accepted so it is a matter of who you wish to know about it.

[Stephenie S]

May I try to present a slightly different point of view?

I can understand DADT and I don't think that it is "necessarily" a bad thing. I have used this example several times in the past so I am sure the old-timers are sick of it.

For example: I believe that killing other living things is morally wrong. However, were my husband a hunter I would never think of forbidding that behavior. But I certainly would want a DADT on the hunting.

Don't bring home your bloody clothing and ask me to wash it.
Don't ask me to eat any of it.
Don't talk about it.


Go do what makes you happy, just don't expect me to participate in any way. This is DADT.

I am willing to bet that plenty of wives think this way about crossdressing. I do.

Truth in Advertizing:I have in the past referred to crossdressing as a deal breaker. I guess I have changed my mind. Hanging about here may have broadened my attitude (pun intended). I can imagine a situation where I could accept it. You know? I guess it depends on the person. (duh)

Hunting, crossdressing, I guess I mostly don't care as long as you don't try to rub my face in it (participate).

See what I mean?

Stephie

Not that I think DADT is a good thing, I don't. I just can understand instances where it might be a deal saver.

[Gillian Gigs]

The problem with being a,"stickler for "following the rules"", is that there are many things that are just meant to be general guide lines. By example: I can have a drink whenever I want and it does not bother me at all. But, the reformed drunk, will say that all drinking is bad, because it is for them. They are putting their weakness toward everyone, and the bottle has no hold on many people. It, to me is people putting everything into black and white, when we live in a world of color.

"People are self-indulgent slackers who need a dose of tough love to get them back onto the straight and narrow", who's defination of slackers are we supposed to use? Is tough love, a good beating with a cane, whip, jail time, well maybe not a whip, that might be kinky for them. Lastly, who is to judge what the straight and narrow is? Sorry for the rant, but we live in a world with to many judges, juries and executioners, and everybody seems to think that they fit into one of those positions. Would they like to be judged by their own standards, I think not! They usually have different standards for themselves.

[Kate T]

I do not think DADT is a good or viable long term option for ANY issue in a marriage, least of all this one.

BUT I do no think those SO's who wish / request a DADT approach are control freaks. They are coping the best they know how. The communication lines go both ways, if an SO can only cope with DADT then maybe they need understanding and help to move past DADT (which I agree is a sort of denial) and engage in communication that moves towards acceptance.

Once you truly know and understand your enemy, at that moment in time you will also truly love them. Then you have a choice. You can either crush them, destroy them completely, or save them. (Modified from Orsonn scott-Card).

In this take your pick, your wife is your enemy or maybe even more abstractly, denial is the enemy. Either way, you must truly understand them before you can either destroy the denial and / or save your wife.

[Miriam-J]

Each couple needs to understand its own most fundamental foundations. For my wife and me, open communication is the most important facet, along with quality time together and plenty of "quality" touching. Though some subjects are difficult given our very different opinions on some topics that are very important to each of us, each of us is committed to taking on those subjects together anyway - with attendant sensitivity and respect. In this view, DADT would be an abomination.

I cannot fathom a successful relationship which can include DADT on any matter, especially on a matter that is so very important to either or both. This entails walling off an important part of your psyche, essentially denying its validity with respect to your partner, or denying the need for communication. If this type of communication is to be exempted, what else is ignored. Does this mean one person can also ignore the others concerns for care of children, sexual urges, or even handling of financial affairs. Is such partitioning a valid approach to life together. Perhaps I just don't have sufficient expertise or experience to understand.

I don't see DADT as a result of control, but as a result of lack of communication and respect. Essentially one person is telling the other that their beliefs and urges are not worth discussion or consideration, that their point of view is invalid and worthless. Are there enough positive aspects of the relationship to overcome this judgement? Perhaps it's possible, but I can't see it.

Miriam

[ReineD]

"Are your wives and SO's equally controlling in all other aspects of their (and your) lives, and has their strong aversion to your crossdressing less to to with that activity itself, and more to do with exercising their control over something that they simply do not agree with, and that their opinions must prevail at all costs?"

It seems as if my friends were much more easy going when they were younger. I have a childhood girlfriend whom I see every year when I visit my home town, who MUST have everything her way and who disapproves of lifestyles that are not her own. We went shopping last month, and she insisted, no, she dictated what I should and should not buy. I love her dearly, I know her well, and her controlling behaviors do not upset me. But this is easy since I don't live with her, and the matter under discussion is never whether I should or should not express a fundamental part of myself ... (and I did buy the black teddy she felt that I HAD to buy, because it was only $10 ... a black, stretch lace little number). :p

I have several other friends, also in their 50s, who are similarly opinionated on a variety of subjects. I do think that age plays a big part in this.

Also, I think there are a fair number of people who don't feel comfortable with things they do not understand, or who don't enjoy "not knowing". Free fall is death to them. They feel safer when everything is filed away into nice, neat little boxes.

[Amanda_P]

My wife has the same problem. She believes I'm either gay or a fruitcake tulip or other names she likes to call me. She tells me she isn't a lesbian and I must want to be a woman becuase I do this. And then turn around when we went to Walmart she picks out a cute pair of PJs for me and a really cute blouse at a yard sale earlier. I just will never understand her

[Tara D. Rose]

Leslie, you are one of my friends. We as CD's can find all kind of GG's that accept us as a friend, but I do think that these GG's would not accept their own husbands if they we cd's. It's easy for these kinds of GG's that will accept, but I have seen it so many times that they will accept a cd as a friend, but that acceptance does have it's limits, it's like okay at the local pub, but not if it is in their own back yard. Like if their husbands were cd. Yes we do have accepting SO's and wives, and they are great, I have that benefit by way of my wife. I used to have a lot of GG friends at so many clubs I used to play and perform at, I could have been Tara in all of those years, and they,(GG's) would have been the same towards me. But , and that's a heavy BUT, I do not think they would have been just accepting to their own husbands. I mean it's okay and they are not judgemental and are accepting as long as it's not in their back yard.
Bottom line, they would accept you as a cd and a friend, but not as a husband. How many threads and post from here and other sites prove what I say. It's good you have GG friends that accept you as a cd. But I do think , that acceptance has it's limits, just not in their home. Am I wrong??

[Erica2Sweet]

I don't believe all wives who wish to DADT are control freaks. Some, perhaps many, just aren't able to immediately cope with the reality of their husband's crossdressing.

Chalking it up to the wife being a control freak is just another way to make the wife appear to be the bad guy for not being able or willing to be accepting.

[Tara D. Rose]

I don't believe all wives who wish to DADT are control freaks. Some, perhaps many, just aren't able to immediately cope with the reality of their husband's crossdressing.

Chalking it up to the wife being a control freak is just another way to make the wife appear to be the bad guy for not being able or willing to be accepting.
Of course not all wives. But I do feel all wives had a problem with it one way or the other, at least to some large or small degree. It wasn't like a wife said, what's that? you're a cross dresser?, oh okay, no problem, where are we going to eat tonight?

[Babeba]

I agree with many of the above posters. Sometimes DADT is temporary, sometimes it is ongoing, but it is always to try and help that wife to understand or live with something they were not prepared for and don't know how to deal with in any other way.

Women are socialized from a young age to defer to others (especially men), to cooperate, accommodate and put others first. When a wife (particularly from a generation which formed pre-Internet, when this social pressure was harder) puts her foot down on this stuff, I don't think she does it because she is a control freak, but because she just is having trouble processing this stuff and gets defensive of is ubderstandably worried about safety.If cross dressing is threatening their concept of what their life is like, then they may try to resolve it by DADT. I think what a cross dresser needs to do is show that wife their quality of life does not change when he is being feminine more often, that it doesn't threaten job security, and that you won't be beat up in the street when you step Outside. Then they need to learn about how dressing may have some benefits to this for their spouse or themselves.

[TVAmanda]

That's a very interesting opinion you have there Leslie but no I don't think it has anything to do with being a control freak. A very important factor I feel is did they know about the crossdressing before or after the relationship started. The way you have written your question makes me think that your crossdresing was revealed after the relationship had begun?

When you get married or enter a relationship your partner has certain rights. One of those rights is the right to assume that how you present to the world, and your partner, is a true and accurate representation of the real you. A crossdresser who marries without telling their wife before the marriage has lied and married under false pretences and has no right to demand or expect that their wife will then accept it. The vast majority of woman do not want a crossdresser for a husband so to think that a wife who doesn't accept crossdressing is a control freak is delusional at best.

[Aloha Jayne]

I have been married for 23 years. So for about 25 years now, I have been unsuccessful in my efforts to convince my SO that we are not going to die in a firey automobile accident any time that I am behind the wheel. I always let her drive when possible, but when I am driving she is a nervous wreck, and insists on telling me how to drive, and WATCH OUT and slow down etc. Which is all-in-all, very distracting. Now, I actually drive race cars, and have driven for a living in one form or another for 30 years. I have had very few accidents, none in the last 10 years, and no speeding tickets. I can become agressive when someone cuts me off, but for the most part I am striving to drive as carefully as possible because I want her to calm the f### down and relax!

When I came out to her this year, she (we) decided she needed to talk to someone. She found a therapist locally and we both went for several months. And, with the help of her therapist, she was able to see that she has "control issues". Not being in control makes her very uncomfortable and uneasy, and she will quickly begin to try to gain control if she can. She is a very friendly and easy going person otherwise, and not at all over bearing, and isn't insistant on getting her way. But is unhappy if she doesn't.

So my question is this: If I cannot get her to accept the fact that we probably aren't going to die in car crash, what chances do I have that she will ever accept my CDing, and just give up trying to control something that she doesn't even understand? For her at least, DADT isn't even an option, because that would mean she was giving up control. And she willingly knows this, but isn't capable of changing who she is. Yes, it would be better to have open and honest discussions with each other, which is why I came out to her in the first place. But she would have to let go of the steering wheel first.

[kristinacd55]

Interesting thread Leslie.....my wife WAS controlling, or tried to with regards to my drinking and basically the rest of my life including crossdressing. She was also that way with our 2 girls, but back in February when she started dating, she stopped being controlling to me and poof changes have come our way big time. Now, there's no control nor does she want to work on our marriage either. Overall, this change has been great for both of us (except the fact that I still want to stay married lol) because we're both free. Incredibly, it's been a huge life changer and we're both better off because of it. It's taken a hugely different mind set on my part, and having support with friends (tg, regulars, and also aa) has helped enormously.

[melissakozak]

Our wives have a different set of problems than us. First, they have to grapple with the usual problems and questions of whether or not we want to transition, our orientation, etc. Secondly, it DOES make them feel insecure in so far as it challenges HER femininity. "Am I not woman enough?" The list becomes almost impossibly endless, and then the self identity questions come up. "I am not a lesbian...." So, in our spouses head swirl a myriad number of questions and identity problems she probably had no idea she would ever face, so you are left with an insecure situation. The solutions seem to be either to be open discussion or DADT. IF the spouse is not really open to any of it, then DADT is the best policy....I think. Problem with DADT is intimacy issues due to no longer sharing such a big part of YOUR life. So, many of us are really in a tough situation no matter what.

I am fortunate. I came out early, before marriage, and I let her know this is something I AM, not something I DO. AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR SPOUSE. Baby, you were born with it....

[sometimes_miss]

I don't think so; women have historically always drawn much more of their self identity from who and what the man they marry is. Remember, until very recently nearly 100% of women took their husband's name when they go married. When I hear women talk to each other at work, who 'got the best catch' as far as a male mate was concerned was always a big thing in the pecking order. I think to a great deal it still is. Read the girl's and woman's magazines and things really haven't changed much over the years. Think about it; when was the last time you heard a woman proclaiming how great her husband was to other women, by saying what great taste he has in dresses, purses, woman's shoes, etc.? I never have. Ever. And I work with about 90% female coworkers. So I don't think it's a matter of being 'control freaks'; I think it's more a matter of having what is traditionally seen as a successful male as a mate, or at least, a masculine one.

[Krististeph]

I'd not imagine 'control freaks' so much as perhaps lacking the confidence to have a spouse who does not fit into their tidy neat little world view.

As Melissa (and Lady Gaga) said- you were born with it / that way... many religions do not believe this is so. They cannot deal with ambiguity.

I just saw a reality show about two girls, twins conjoined at the body. essentially - one body - two heads. They were graduating college- going into elementary school teaching. Did 4 years of student teaching. The schools introduces the students gradually, first explaining, then show pictures, and telling the kids about the girls' story- they then ask if the kids had any questions- nope. None of the kids in any of the classes ever had a problem! They were curious, but they came to realize this is simply something that happens when twin embryos stick together. Wierd, but natural.

So if an adult cannot accept that a person might want to be or act female instead of male, i'd say they've had a really poor and closeted upbringing, much to the disgrace of their parents, if anyone is to blame.

just my 2 cents.

-Kristi

[TeresaL]

It's a double whammy if a spouse is not up to speed in understanding that this is more from an inborn need and not a simple choice. In some cases, DADT may be linked to the lack of knowledge about it. Things will not change if they do not approach the table with an open mind and be willing to learn.

Even a domineering person can be ok with transgender spouses. They just have to be on top.

[Leslie Langford]

I agree with many of the above posters. Sometimes DADT is temporary, sometimes it is ongoing, but it is always to try and help that wife to understand or live with something they were not prepared for and don't know how to deal with in any other way.

Women are socialized from a young age to defer to others (especially men), to cooperate, accommodate and put others first. When a wife (particularly from a generation which formed pre-Internet, when this social pressure was harder) puts her foot down on this stuff, I don't think she does it because she is a control freak, but because she just is having trouble processing this stuff and gets defensive of is ubderstandably worried about safety.If cross dressing is threatening their concept of what their life is like, then they may try to resolve it by DADT. I think what a cross dresser needs to do is show that wife their quality of life does not change when he is being feminine more often, that it doesn't threaten job security, and that you won't be beat up in the street when you step Outside. Then they need to learn about how dressing may have some benefits to this for their spouse or themselves.

I hear what you're saying, Babeba, and agree with you for the most part. But where you lose me is in the fact that people do change over time (some more, some less) as does the world around us, and we need to be flexible enough to accommodate this.

When my wife and I married 35+ plus years ago, there was no Internet, very little was known about the subject of crossdressing, and what little there was, was very negative. We were "transvestites", this was considered to be an aberrant, fetishistic, sexually deviant practice, and society ranked us just slightly above pedophiles on the "creep" index. So of course, finding out that your husband or partner was a crossdresser would be highly upsetting to a woman, and the first inclination would be for her to either walk away from the relationship or else to suppress it in any way possible (enter: fingers in the ear while chanting lalalalalala!, DADT etc.) A perfectly normal reaction given the temper of the times, and one that I can understand fully. Hence, my unconditional acceptance of DADT at the time.

But the world has changed, and so have I.

Gays and lesbians have now come fully out of the closet, gone totally mainstream, and for the most part are now seen as valuable, contributing members of society who just happen to be a little bit "different". Similarly, over the last 10 years or so, there has been an explosion regarding the information available out there about both crossdressing and transgenderism in general. Laws are being passed everywhere to include gender identity as well as sexual orientation on the list of items for which discrimination is no longer tolerated.

One can hardly open up a newspaper or turn on the television these days without seeing an article, a show, or a documentary on transgenderism, a person who either wants to (or has) transitioned, and how they are integrating into society with the help of family and employers who are increasingly sympathetic and understanding with respect to their plight.

H*ll, even Dr. Phil finally "gets it", and we have seen transgendered/transsexual individuals such as androgynous model Andrej Pejic, America's Next Top Model Isis King, and Miss Universe Canada Jennna Talackova make huge strides in gaining mainstream acceptance - and even managing to put powerful, uber-macho blowhards like Donald Trump in their place in the process.

The big topic these days is transgendered children, how this condition is being detected and recognized earlier and earlier, and how progressive parents are dealing with it in a positive way. The recommended action in response to this is increasingly to take a non-interventionist approach so as not to damage the child's developing psyche. In some cases, this includes allowing them to go on beta-blockers before they reach puberty so that they can make their own decision as to which way they want to go once they are old enough to make that life-changing decision.

This is a far cry from when I was young, and when I shamefully had to hide this part of me for fear of upsetting the world around me. Fortunately, there is also a growing awareness of just how at-risk these transgendered children are when it comes to attempting suicide because they feel so isolated and alone - so all the more reason to treat them sympathetically, and to make every effort to make their lives better.

This is the world I currently live in, and no longer feel any guilt or shame over being transgendered. If anything, I now embrace it, frequently go out in public en femme , and find total acceptance everywhere I go - except at home. I just wish my wife would also get in tune with the times and join me in this kinder, gentler world...

[Tina B.]

The real problem with DADT is not wither your wife is a control freak or not, it really doesn't matter. The reason for DADT is not important, what is important is, only one person can be truly happy with DADT, and that is the one that doesn't want to hear it.
As long as you give in to it and play along, they get everything they want, and you get nothing, right where you where at when no one in the world but you knew. and every thing must be hidden, and if you get out you should feel a certain amount of guilt to go with it. You have to steal time, and money from the family, because I'm sure if you can't talk about it, she doesn't want you spending money on it.
So what do you get out of DADT, a happy wife, but one that doesn't seem to care if she has a happy husband, I don't see that that is getting much in the bargain.
Tina B.

[Stephanie47]

I'm in a DADT marriage. I can emphatically state my cross dressing is not the problem in our marriage. She does not like cross dressing and will make comments when it is shown in the media. I suspect they are barbs thrown my way to let me know she does not approve. When we were first married there was some bedroom play with lingerie; nightgowns and hosiery. No big deal. We put that aside when a child was born. When we both realized my interest in cross dressing was more than bedroom play, it eventually became DADT. Even going to see Dustin Hoffman in 'Tootsie' was difficult for her. The same with the Robin Williams flick, Mrs. Doubtfire. My interest in cross dressing and her aversion to it has more to do with her view of herself. Her insecurities from her childhood and young adult life prior to knowing her has played havoc in our marriage. I find it difficult that I fully accepted her, but, she reject me for who I am. Had I known how our lives would progressed, I would never have married her. To give up all aspirations for a person, and, to be rewarded with rejection makes one search his soul. I realize at my age, there are limitations now in trying to achieve what I should have tried years ago.

However, having given up decades of dreams and made compromises, any change in DADT will not be tolerated. My cross dressing is my last safe harbor I have for self expression. I will not lose it. So. although a wife may not be a 'control freak,' her attitude will surely become controlling. So, for you younger cross dressers, when your wife gives you an ultimatum to purge your femme clothing or take the highway, take the highway.

[ReineD]

This is the world I currently live in, and no longer feel any guilt or shame over being transgendered. If anything, I now embrace it, frequently go out in public en femme , and find total acceptance everywhere I go - except at home. I just wish my wife would also get in tune with the times and join me in this kinder, gentler world...

If you were her acquaintance, she'd probably be intrigued by you as well. But, you're not. This holds true for many (most?) people. It also explains why CDers go out without suffering negative consequences, for the most part. It is easier to approach a situation or a person with an open mind when it is not in one's back yard, especially if it is a client. SAs and nail techs know they can go home to their own "normalcy" and so they do not need to redefine their romantic gender roles with someone whom they are spending an hour or two.

[Leslie Langford]

I know, Reine, and I've made that same point myself before...

Probably wishful thinking on my part, but I just wish that my wife would get over the notion that crossdressing is some evil, perverted, disgusting, and depraved activity that "real" men don't indulge in, and that to be "outed" would make us the laughingstock of the world, and she could never show her face in public again.

All the evidence indicates that the world is becoming a safer, more understanding, and more welcoming place for people like us, so why can't she get past her entrenched and out-dated biases and get with the program?

I find this so frustrating, especially since I have been able to accept some of her own quirks - of which she also has many - and which often have no basis in logic, being typically ascribed to "women's prerogative" or the like when questioned.

[ReineD]

Probably wishful thinking on my part, but I just wish that my wife would get over the notion that crossdressing is some evil, perverted, disgusting, and depraved activity that "real" men don't indulge in, and that to be "outed" would make us the laughingstock of the world, and she could never show her face in public again.

I didn't say this in my prior post, but I also wish that your wife could at least come to see how difficult it is for you that she cannot acknowledge a part of who you are. :sad:

[Badtranny]

So, for you younger cross dressers, when your wife gives you an ultimatum to purge your femme clothing or take the highway, take the highway.

What a powerful testimonial.

[outhiking]

I sometimes wonder if my wife would have a similiar response to me if I told her I was always a poet or painter at heart and began changing my career. She'd likely feel this was not what she was promised when we married and I've failed to live up to my end of the bargain.

Just thinking out loud and planning to keep my day job :-)

[Erica2Sweet]

Of course not all wives. But I do feel all wives had a problem with it one way or the other, at least to some large or small degree. It wasn't like a wife said, what's that? you're a cross dresser?, oh okay, no problem, where are we going to eat tonight?

My wife has no problem with it whatsoever, though she knew about my gender issues and saw photos of me in girl mode before me even met for the first time in person.

The story is often entirely different when the husband isn't honest early on, before commitments are made. In those cases you not only have issues with wives not being accepting of the crossdressing, you have wives with issues related to the keeping of secrets and lying by omission.

Frankly, I feel that making the wife out to be some sort of a control freak because she's not giving the husband a pass on these issues is a clear case of shifting the blame. If the husband is knowingly not being honest and forthright, he needs to own the responsibility and the fallout.

[Tara D. Rose]

My wife has no problem with it whatsoever, though she knew about my gender issues and saw photos of me in girl mode before me even met for the first time in person.

The story is often entirely different when the husband isn't honest early on, before commitments are made. In those cases you not only have issues with wives not being accepting of the crossdressing, you have wives with issues related to the keeping of secrets and lying by omission.

Frankly, I feel that making the wife out to be some sort of a control freak because she's not giving the husband a pass on these issues is a clear case of shifting the blame. If the husband is knowingly not being honest and forthright, he needs to own the responsibility and the fallout.
I guess I should have given more thought when I said all wives have had a problem with cd husband's at first, I said that with the assumption that they are already married and then are found out or are told after marriage.

[Leslie Langford]

"...Frankly, I feel that making the wife out to be some sort of a control freak because she's not giving the husband a pass on these issues is a clear case of shifting the blame. If the husband is knowingly not being honest and forthright, he needs to own the responsibility and the fallout..."

Sounds eminently reasonable on the surface, Erica, but unfortunately, life isn't always that black and white.

Yes, I fully "own" that part of the problem - and no, I'm not making any excuses here - but any discussion touching on this area needs to take into consideration the fact that the members of this forum are multi-generational, and those of us who were youngsters in the 50's and 60's when so little information regarding crossdressing was available are at a distinct disadvantage compared to those young crossdressers coming of age in today's world.

Like many others of my generation, we had no one to reach out to, had to wrestle with this issue of gender dysphoria all by ourselves, and usually believed that we were the only people on earth who had these "strange" inclinations. And growing up in a world where men were men and women were women, gender roles were strictly defined with no deviation from the norm tolerated, and where in most jurisdictions, it was open season on homosexuals and engaging in homosexual acts was still grounds for imprisonment - of course we tended to both hide and suppress this deep, dark secret of ours. Besides, like myself, most of us probably thought that this was a passing phase, and once we had a girlfriend and became sexually active, these strange urges would go away - NOT!

There is way more information regarding all aspects of crossdressing and transgenderism available out there to the current generations - all one has to do is a Google search on the Internet to come up with thousands, if not millions, of hits on this topic and educate oneself to one's heart's content. Even the mere existence of this forum is a testimonial that, not to mention this very on-line discussion with so many interesting POV's emerging out of it.

So yes, mea culpa - but with reservations.

But my other point was that I have educated myself regarding my crossdressing over the years using the methods I alluded to above, have a much clearer idea of why I am the way I am, and no longer wear a hair shirt in penance over it. Any reasonable person is open to changing their minds on a given issue when new information is presented to them that might now modify previously held views. All I would ask is that our DADT wives and SO's do the same if they truly loved us, and not continue to treat us so harshly because they cling to outdated ideas and refuse to open their minds.

It is for that reason that I can't help but believe that the problem goes deeper than just an aversion to our crossdressing, and is more symptomatic of a fundamental and deep-seated need to control us in other aspects of our lives as well.

[Erica2Sweet]

...having given up decades of dreams and made compromises, any change in DADT will not be tolerated. My cross dressing is my last safe harbor I have for self expression. I will not lose it. So. although a wife may not be a 'control freak,' her attitude will surely become controlling. So, for you younger cross dressers, when your wife gives you an ultimatum to purge your femme clothing or take the highway, take the highway.

When we read about ultimatums being given by wives over the crossdressing issue, my wife and I often wonder if crossdressing is really the only issue weighing on the relationship in question. When it comes to understanding people and how we think, I'm a realist, but I personally find it hard to believe so many wives would be willing to just give it all up unless there were also more significant issues bogging down the relationship that may or may not be related to the crossdressing. If there's really nothing else impacting the relationship in a negative way, then we're saying that it's OK to choose selfish indulgence over the person in our life that are supposed to "love and cherish until death do us part". Saying that there's dignity in that is a pretty tough sell.

Also, I would hope anyone reading this would realize that learning effective communication and negotiating skills would, in many of these circumstances, be a wiser alternative to cutting and running from one's commitments and responsibilities. If there's anything I can think of that's worth fighting for, it would be a happy marriage.

[Kate Simmons]

I'm not so sure Leslie, I think they just want it their way. Now, there's a shocker, never saw that one coming. :heehee::)

[Erica2Sweet]

"...Frankly, I feel that making the wife out to be some sort of a control freak because she's not giving the husband a pass on these issues is a clear case of shifting the blame. If the husband is knowingly not being honest and forthright, he needs to own the responsibility and the fallout..."

Sounds eminently reasonable on the surface, Erica, but unfortunately, life isn't always that black and white.

Yes, I fully "own" that part of the problem - and no, I'm not making any excuses here - but any discussion touching on this area needs to take into consideration the fact that the members of this forum are multi-generational, and those of us who were youngsters in the 50's and 60's when so little information regarding crossdressing was available are at a distinct disadvantage compared to those young crossdressers coming of age in today's world.

Like many others of my generation, we had no one to reach out to, had to wrestle with this issue of gender dysphoria all by ourselves, and usually believed that we were the only people on earth who had these "strange" inclinations. And growing up in a world where men were men and women were women, gender roles were strictly defined with no deviation from the norm tolerated, and where in most jurisdictions, it was open season on homosexuals and engaging in homosexual acts was still grounds for imprisonment - of course we tended to both hide and suppress this deep, dark secret of ours. Besides, like myself, most of us probably thought that this was a passing phase, and once we had a girlfriend and became sexually active, these strange urges would go away - NOT!

If I understand what you're saying, its that, since the husband creates a significant problem within the marriage by admitting that he crossdresses, then the wife refuses to be accepting, that she then suddenly shares some part of the responsibility for there being turmoil within the relationship because she is not willing to accept and incorporate the crossdressing into the relationship. Then, because the wife is in a mode of non-acceptance, she's now earned the label of "control freak". This, to me, is still not owning the responsibility.

Regardless of what generation we come from, I think we all still bear responsibility for maintaining the relationships we commit to using whatever tools we have and can acquire if we want to be happily married. Saying older generations have it harder may technically be true in a lot of cases, but broken marriages and unhappiness do not discriminated based on age (or access to technology). That, I think, is an excuse. The responsibilities of the wife and husband to each other and to the success of the marriage are basically the same for all generations.

In "Karmatic" terms, it may not be entirely fair, but life usually isn't.

Taking one of your examples, what would you expect the outcome to be when a man who is a closet crossdresser marries a woman who exibits "fundamentalist religious beliefs" but neglects to inform her about his gender issues prior to the wedding?

[Barbara Ella]

From the beginning my wife has intellectually accepted that this is something that I had to do. She has always wanted me to find out what it was about and that I should do it to find my happiness. Emotionally she had a hard time letting this into her life, but she is trying. She fell into a DADT period, and just needed time where she had no new inputs to process about a feminine side to her husband of 41 years at that time. This is in no way controlling except that she needed it to be able to control her emotions for a time. Over the last few months she has asked me about things I do, and want to do. She has joked about it.

DADT situations cannot all be put into the same category. Neither person can have it all their way, and the onoy way to decide where everyone is at is through discussion.

Barbara

[Wildaboutheels]

Obviously every case of DADT is as unique as every CDer. DADT ultimately IS compromise to the non CDer and some people do use it to make their Relationship work. It's simply a matter of perspective.

[avant1465]

I have a delightful SO who sez (approximately): " .... you find crossdressing to be a comfortable part of WHO YOU ARE... and I LIKE who you are....and your C/D-ing is not harmful, and is - in fact - kind of a fun part of what goes on between us...... so... what's the question????"

She's terrific!!!!! I wish more/ALL of you could have partners who are so sensible about this part of you...

[Leslie Langford]

Erica, perhaps I didn't make myself totally clear in my last post, and for that I apologize. What I was really driving at was that "That was then; this is now".

Yes, perhaps mistakes might have been made by both parties when they initially stumbled into their DADT mode years ago, and when they approached the crossdressing dilemma the best way they could to reach a reasonable accommodation between the two of them that might have worked back then with the limited information available about it at the time.

But situations change, and people should be prepared to change with them. Time was, everybody smoked and it was a normal part of life. Now we know that smoking can kill you, and today those who still smoke are for all intents and purposes treated as though they were lepers. DDT was once the insecticide of choice; now it is banned. Any fans of Agent Orange out there anymore? See asbestos used much these days, when once it was a favored building material? My point being - new information becomes available, and sometimes we need to make a 180 degree shift in past perceptions to adjust to the new reality.

And if society now has a far different - and a far more understanding and tolerant - view of transgenderism in general and crossdressing in particular, is it so unreasonable for us to expect our DADT wives and SO's to get on board and maybe - just maybe - come to accept that it might not be the vile and degenerate practice that they once thought it was?

And for the record - if I had to do it all over again, I would definitely have told my wife about my crossdressing before we got married. That would certainly have made our lives considerably less complicated. But I would also have come armed with the best information I could as to what crossdressing was - and wasn't - so that she could at least have made an informed decision as to which way she wanted to proceed. Unfortunately, that information wasn't available at the time the way it is now...

[Jilmac]

I don't know what DADT stands for, but when my wife was alive she disapproved of my dressing even though she knew about it before we married. I hid it and never dressed openly in her presence but she caught me a few times and then I'd get a lecture about how she wanted me to be the "MAN" she married.

[Megan70]

I must be the only chic here living in a cave. What the heck does the acronym DADT stand for? I need to know the definition before I can comment. We've been married for 42 years and for 40 of those have been going out in public,shopping, thearter, movies,restaurant etc as two women. No problem here, we get it together nicely. But the initials... please enlighten me.

Megan70

[Eryn]

When you get married or enter a relationship your partner has certain rights. One of those rights is the right to assume that how you present to the world, and your partner, is a true and accurate representation of the real you. A crossdresser who marries without telling their wife before the marriage has lied and married under false pretences and has no right to demand or expect that their wife will then accept it.

While there may be many who are confirmed CDers when they marry, I think that most of us either were not fully aware of our CDing tendencies before marriage or firmly believed that marriage would cure out CDing tendencies. We all put on our "best faces" for our potential spouses and sometimes things get swept under the rug by both parties.

The demographics of this forum show that a large number of CDers come to terms with their CDing between ages 40 and 60. I fall into that category. If you had asked me in 2009, after 20 years of marriage, if I was a crossdresser I would have answered emphatically "no." I knew that I had an inordinate interest in feminine things that extended back to my teens, but I had never dressed beyond a single item of clothing or a quick trial application of one makeup item. I had it firmly fixed in my head that what I was doing was "experimenting" and that it was somewhat shameful to want to experiment in this way. I certainly wasn't going to share something shameful with my girlfriend or wife as I would be viewed as a pervert. The shame of it all was rather depressing and not being able to discuss it made it more so. I was not fun to be around as the feeling got stronger within me.

I have no idea of what changed, perhaps hormone levels, perhaps seeing something in the media, perhaps simply random chance, but I had the opportunity to dress more completely when my wife went to visit her relatives. Something clicked and I did something that I hadn't done before, an internet search. I found out that there were others like me and that what I was doing was neither unusual or perverted.

Now, Amanda, how could I have given full disclosure to a wife or girlfriend when I myself didn't know what my feelings meant? Every person has a laundry list of negative traits or characteristics and it is unrealistic to expect them all to be disclosed, particularly if a particular trait is not fully defined? The bottom line is that nobody knows themselves completely at the typical age of marriage and the married couple are expected to support and grow with each other.

During the course of a marriage people change. It is unrealistic to expect one's spouse to remain static. What if the husband puts on 30 pounds? Is the wife justified in kicking him to the curb because he isn't "the man she married?" What if the wife is infertile? That's certainly a life-changer, but is the husband justified in dumping her for it? As you can see, there's a good reason for the "For better or worse" clause is in the vows.

[PretzelGirl]

What the heck does the acronym DADT stand for?

Megan, it stands for Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Basically a setup where the CD can dress, but not in front of the spouse. The CD will not bring it up at all. The spouse supposedly knows it is going on, but as long as it isn't in her face, she won't make a ruckus over it.

[heatherdress]

Maybe spouses and SOs who impose DADT are simply poor communicators. Or insecure. Or ignorant. Or narrow-minded. Or...

[Thera Home]

Hello All
My feelings on the matter are,
Women are much more cautious and emotional on some delicate matters than men are. As a spouse, we must hadle them with kids gloves until they understand the feelings we expierence while dressed or whatever.

Thera

[Marleena]

And for the record - if I had to do it all over again, I would definitely have told my wife about my crossdressing before we got married. That would certainly have made our lives considerably less complicated. But I would also have come armed with the best information I could as to what crossdressing was - and wasn't - so that she could at least have made an informed decision as to which way she wanted to proceed. Unfortunately, that information wasn't available at the time the way it is now...

She might not have married you had she known. A lot of us older members did not have the knowledge to know what we are. If we look at this objectively most women have an ideal guy they want when they get married and you fit the bill at the time for her. I don't think too many women even consider a CD/TG/TS as someone they want to marry, there just aren't a lot of us around. If one is upfront while dating DADT becomes less likely. It can't be easy to deal with to find out after the fact. The "control freak" part might simply be her way of making sure you stay safe and don't get outed. If you get outed she will have a lot of unpleasant comments and questions to deal with. It will be embarrasing for her. Maybe she just can't deal with seeing her husband in a dress either. There are so many reasons that can cause DADT. Have you asked why there is DADT for you?

Now all of that said I have seen many good relationships and marriages on this board that have worked through it all for various reasons. So it is not totally hopeless for us.

Try thinking how you would react if you found out your wife was an FTM and was out dressed as a guy, that might put things into perspective. Also remember a GG that is not in a relationship with you will be more likely to accept your CDing. It does not affect their life.

I'll cut it short here as it could turn into a novel if we factor in all the variables.

[ReineD]

Leslie, I understand the quandary you find yourself in. In a nutshell, you've come to accept yourself over the years due to all the reasons you mentioned, and you no longer wish to behave at home as if the CDing is a shameful part of who you are. You also would like your wife to educate herself sufficiently to at least acknowledge that Leslie is an integral part of who you are. The ideal would be if she could enjoy Leslie as well, like your other GG acquaintances.

It doesn't look as if this is going to happen, and I agree this is difficult for you, especially when you read stories of other CDers here who have accepting wives. Anyone in your shoes would feel frustrated.

I also gather that you have some freedom of movement, meaning that you do not need to hide any of your things, you are free to purchase what you will, and you also go out dressed frequently without having to hide this from your wife?

So now you must choose a course of action. You can either accept that your wife will not change and no matter how much you would like her to enjoy Leslie, respect the fact that she doesn't and stop faulting her. You can still enjoy yourself when you go out and also enjoy the friendships you are making.

Or, you can decide how important it is for you to have a partner who is involved. If you find your marital situation unbearable as is, then you should consider speaking to your wife candidly about the seriousness of the situation and be prepared to make some changes (separation) if she feels equally strong about not being involved. This would be the honest thing to do, for both of you.

The worst thing to do is to build up bitterness over her non-acceptance, and assign blame on either yourself or her. Eventually the pent-up resentments will grow (if they haven't already), and your marriage will become distant if not entirely disconnected.

Do you still love your wife?

[Wildaboutheels]

Yeah, the knowledge IS out there. Plenty of it.

So what.

There is a very good reason for the expression, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". Or how about "There's none so blind as those who will not see"? I see proof of both every single day at work.

Isn't it true that we ALL have some aspect of that in us and all the LOVE in the world is not going to change our mind on certain matters?

You clearly seem quite happy with the feminine side of your life at this time. Despite your wife's [seeming] disapproval in your eyes.

GREAT! That's the way Relationships are supposed to be. It would be silly to assume mates should be willing to "do anything" to make their mates happy. We are all entitled to whatever qualities or traits we have that makes us unique but we cannot expect others to necessarily embrace or accept ALL of them.

Is it safe to assume that there are still plenty of other things your wife likes about you? Or plenty of other activities that she enjoys doing with you/you with her?

I think it was either Dear Abby or Ann Landers who were forever asking the eternal question: "Are you better off with them or without them"?

[Megan70]

O....k! does not apply here. Sorry about you gurls that are in that fix.
Megan, it stands for Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Basically a setup where the CD can dress, but not in front of the spouse. The CD will not bring it up at all. The spouse supposedly knows it is going on, but as long as it isn't in her face, she won't make a ruckus over it.

[ReineD]

Well, there are actually three different types of DADT:

1. The "sweep-under-the-carpet" variety where a wife just doesn't want to know or talk about it which forces the husband to go behind her back, wondering when he'll next have a chance to dress.

2. The "above-board" DADT where the husband keeps the clothes openly in the house or in a place that the wife is aware of even if she chooses to not look. The husband does not hide purchases and may even have packages delivered at home and also goes out without having to wait until the wife is out of town. Or if closeted, the wife leaves the house in order to give her husband space and time to dress.

3. The "voluntary" DADT where the husband actually prefers to not dress in front of his wife, either because he feels silly doing this, or his need perhaps isn't as great, although the wife does know about it. If she doesn't know, it's not DADT, it's "lying by omission".

[dominique]

This is one of the best threads on here for a while. In some of the replies I find my wife's attitude in things, eg not watching cd programmes, doing everything her way or no way at all. Which sometimes I feel its my fault I could've been more assertive when we met. When we first met I was in that dip every one goes through not really bothered whether we dress or not. So I didn't really expect it to come back with a vengence, when it did I was surprised.
Since I was found out I'm feel that I've became more passive as if to make up to her and go along with her , as much to avoid situations where we might get into an arguement and everything comes back to the fore.

[Leslie Langford]

Leslie, I understand the quandary you find yourself in. In a nutshell, you've come to accept yourself over the years due to all the reasons you mentioned, and you no longer wish to behave at home as if the CDing is a shameful part of who you are. You also would like your wife to educate herself sufficiently to at least acknowledge that Leslie is an integral part of who you are. The ideal would be if she could enjoy Leslie as well, like your other GG acquaintances.

It doesn't look as if this is going to happen, and I agree this is difficult for you, especially when you read stories of other CDers here who have accepting wives. Anyone in your shoes would feel frustrated.

I also gather that you have some freedom of movement, meaning that you do not need to hide any of your things, you are free to purchase what you will, and you also go out dressed frequently without having to hide this from your wife?

So now you must choose a course of action. You can either accept that your wife will not change and no matter how much you would like her to enjoy Leslie, respect the fact that she doesn't and stop faulting her. You can still enjoy yourself when you go out and also enjoy the friendships you are making.

Or, you can decide how important it is for you to have a partner who is involved. If you find your marital situation unbearable as is, then you should consider speaking to your wife candidly about the seriousness of the situation and be prepared to make some changes (separation) if she feels equally strong about not being involved. This would be the honest thing to do, for both of you.

The worst thing to do is to build up bitterness over her non-acceptance, and assign blame on either yourself or her. Eventually the pent-up resentments will grow (if they haven't already), and your marriage will become distant if not entirely disconnected.

Do you still love your wife?

Wow! - or is that.. Ouch?!, Reine! :eek: :doh: :sad:

I think that you have managed to encapsulate my situation perfectly, and in a far more succinct manner than I was able to do so far. Much food for thought here, and I am really going to have to mull over some of the points you have raised in your reply.

Yes, I do love my wife very much despite all my grumbling here, and deep down inside she loves me equally - if not more. When things are going well, she freely tells me this, affirms that she has never met anyone quite like me (no sh*t! :eek: :heehee:), and that she could not imagine a life without me. We have a very good marriage otherwise, have much in common, and have raised two lovely and accomplished children together. And FWIW, she was a virgin when we got married, so I am her "one and only" in more ways than one. It's just that d*mn, pesky crossdressing thing that she can't get past - especially since it is something that she cannot "control", unlike so many other aspects of her life.

It's not that I want my wife to embrace my crossdressing or evenly participate in it. Given her views on the subject, that would probably be a huge "downer" anyway, even if she could somehow force herself to meet "Leslie" or even see a picture of her.

I guess that at the end of the day, I am just looking for some validation that this is an integral part of me, that it will never go away, and that we should be able to openly talk about it without it always becoming an "issue". Just to hear her say something along the lines of: "You seem very stressed today. Maybe you need some "Leslie" time. How about I go out for the afternoon and you could dress up for a while?" That would be music to my ears, and an acknowledgement that my needs in that regard are both legitimate and "okay". I certainly go out of my way to accommodate most of her needs and idiosyncrasies without giving it too much thought.

Yes, Reine, you are right - I have managed to carve out a great deal of freedom to do what I want (and need) within the confines of our particular DADT arrangement. But I have also had to fight and claw for every one of those concessions in a war of attrition that sometimes resembled the Battle of Stalingrad, where gains were measured in inches, and the fighting was block-by-block, street-by-street, house-by-house, and ultimately room-by-room...

Yes, I may have come out ahead in the process, but at what cost, and why did it have to be such a struggle?

[Aloha Jayne]

Probably wishful thinking on my part, but I just wish that my wife would get over the notion that crossdressing is some evil, perverted, disgusting, and depraved activity that "real" men don't indulge in.


Great thread Leslie. Reine is very wise and always gives good advice. The quote above is exactly how my wife feels. So much so, that is makes me feel the same way about it, and even ruins my ability to enjoy CDing. Currently we are in a DADED mode. "don't ask, don't even do". I would be so happy for a DADT. My wife admits having control issues, but at the same time, this just makes her sick to even think about. I feel very lost, and don't know what the future will be. And like you, I have decided to love my wife and choose to stay with her, because life without her would be pathetic and lonely. But even though we all crave acceptance and validation, sometimes we just have to settle for the consequenses of our choices.

[bridgetta]

The idea that ahusband has a secret personality must be terrifying. I am going to start a thread about this. We need to have ONE personality. All the time. It means taking responsibilty for our actions

[Beverley Sims]

I asked this question of my wife and her response is that its not being a control freak at all! She says that sometimes it is a matter of safety in some cases. Crossdressing is not universally accepted so it is a matter of who you wish to know about it.

Darla, I totally agree with you. Wives are equally afraid of being found out.

[Thera Home]

Hello Everyone
This thread Im afraid has captured my attention for some reason or another:thinking:,I wonder why:heehee:
Anyway after doing some reading last night and this morning Ive come to an answer that I will share with my wife the next time I disscuss this with her(which will soon,again Im sure) and pose this answer. I would love to hear your reactions and thoughts to this. It'll the the guidelines I believe of the OP.
"Why do you cause me grief,woman. Did you design and create me? Did GOD give you his divine plan to ponder? Then why do you judge me. All I ask is that you embrace me and love me and not your idealogy.":eek:

Let me know

Thera

[Kaz]

Picking up on one of Reine's points and throwing it into my DADT world...

In our early twenties, when I met my wife, we were both very liberal about most things I guess... the bad stuff was blood sports and nuclear weapons, but how should people dress, present, sexual orientation... fantastic.. but we knew we were hetero-sexual and we loved (and lusted after) each other and it was cool. Over the years she has accused me of being a control freak and me her... she only really found out about my CDing a few years ago... most of our marriage I was well in the closet. She would occasionally find something (e.g. the red bra that was not her size), but it never went further... I purged frequently.

We had a series of big rows a few years ago where we very nearly split up (youngest of three aged 18) - we are still together... and I am still CDing, but she doesn't want to know...

My view? It isn't about control (for us), it is that she wants me to be the guy she knows and has lived with all these years, the husband, the father... she doesn't want to see a different person involved in the marriage... She didn't marry Kaz, she married this other guy... and the less I am like him, the less she loves me... simple...

I would love to show her Kaz... and show her how this side is so integral to the person she married, but she does want to know and if I ever sprung it on her it would screw her head I think!

Just my take Leslie...!! It isn't about control it is more about someone's 'mental model'... hence the argument for being honest up front... although I am still suspicious about that for other reasons!!!

[Stephanie47]

Sometimes situations do not lend themselves to negotiations. It takes many years to establish a marriage that will survive cross dressing or any other activity one spouse perceives in a negative way. I know my wife does not approve of cross dressing. Years ago she said she wished she had never revealed her past which by all standards would really make most guys run. During the courting stage you tend to only see the positive and you only display the positives. Everyone tends to hold back on the negatives. Somethings are just DEAL BREAKERS for people. Cross dressing tends to be a deal breaker for almost all women. It violates societal norms. The women feels society will view her in a negative way. There must be something wrong or kinky with her to tolerate it. She is a victim by guilt by association. So, is DADT a bad situation, as long as husband and wife agree to it, implicitly or by the 'ostrich' effect? If you have read my postings over the year or two, I firmly believe husband and wife should set boundaries they both are comfortable with.

My view of terminating the marriage is applicable to situations where an ultimatum is made. To make a person give up who they are is wrong. If the wife wants to watch you take your femme stuff to the burn barrel and watch it burn, then, is that a marriage. I do NOT limit my beliefs to ultimatums about cross dressing. I really detest men who demand compliance from their wives to do nothing but produce offspring, keep the home, and be a 'possession.' Sometimes people just 'wake up and smell the coffee' later than some.

Anyway, given an ultimatum on any issue is wrong. So my recommendation to take the highway still stands.





Also, I would hope anyone reading this would realize that learning effective communication and negotiating skills would, in many of these circumstances, be a wiser alternative to cutting and running from one's commitments and responsibilities. If there's anything I can think of that's worth fighting for, it would be a happy marriage.

[Erica2Sweet]

...Somethings are just DEAL BREAKERS for people. Cross dressing tends to be a deal breaker for almost all women...

Hi Stephanie. I do not disagree with anything in your reply. The part of this subject that fascinates and squicks me at the same time, is the refusal to cave to an inter-marriage ultimatum in those instances where the husband was not honest and forthright about the crossdressing BEFORE the wedding. Then, when the husband settles into "husband status", he at some point experiences an overload of negative feelings about his crossdressing and then confesses it all. Next, the shocked and angered wife not surprisingly says "I won't have it" to which the husband then declares "I won't stand for ultimatums in our marriage!" in a clear attempt to somehow gain her blessing to continue his crossdressing. In this all too common scenario, which one of the two initially caused the problem by being deceitful? Is the moment someone is deep inside the dog house the right time to begin re-negotiating the rules of his marriage? Is crossdressing at that point worth risking the happiness of the children in the house?

Again referring to the scenario above, I just don't see how a man in a committed relationship can honestly believe that he is entitled to acceptance and support from his wife for an activity that he was clearly not even willing to be honest with his wife about, much less be in control of. The reality is that this is most likely how a wife would view the crossdressing in this scenario. In the midst of all this, declaring an ultimatum about ultimatums is probably the last thing that should come out of a husband's mouth if he were smart. She would have the law, public opinion, and morality on her side. What more would she need to be armed with when she headed to divorce court?

[NicoleScott]

Stephanie, I agree with you that there ARE deal-breakers. But I don't quite agree with handling an ultimatum.
There is nothing required of anyone to act on the ultimatum. But if you do choose to act, it's your decision. Your decision to stop crossdressing, or your decision to hit the road. Sometimes it's best to do nothing, and put the ultimatum back in the hands of the issuer, for that person to make the decision (to break the relationship or accept the crossdressing). Also, doing nothing may expose a bluff.
Be careful about issuing an ultimatum. Never offer a choice you don't want someone to take.

[ReineD]

Wow! - or is that.. Ouch?!, Reine! :eek: :doh: :sad:

No, it wasn't meant as a dig. I just hate to see you distraught over such an impasse and I was trying to determine how important it is to you to have your wife acknowledge Leslie and if it is, you should let her know just how much her non-acceptance bothers you at your core.




Yes, I do love my wife very much despite all my grumbling here, and deep down inside she loves me equally - if not more.

I wasn't sure about the overall health of your relationship and I'm relieved to see that it is good. This means that there is room for discussion on the matter. :hugs:



I guess that at the end of the day, I am just looking for some validation that this is an integral part of me, that it will never go away, and that we should be able to openly talk about it without it always becoming an "issue". Just to hear her say something along the lines of: "You seem very stressed today. Maybe you need some "Leslie" time. How about I go out for the afternoon and you could dress up for a while?" That would be music to my ears, and an acknowledgement that my needs in that regard are both legitimate and "okay". I certainly go out of my way to accommodate most of her needs and idiosyncrasies without giving it too much thought.

Have you told this to your wife? I'm reading through your words that you feel as if your wife may believe you to be "less than", and this, more than anything else is hurtful. Please talk to her about this. She needs to know how you feel.

[Leslie Langford]

Not to worry, Reine - I took your comments as they were intended, and in the context of the constructive and positive feedback that they represented.

I truly appreciate all the time and effort that you have put into your various responses - both to me and the others here who have participated in this discussion. There were some very interesting and sometimes diverse POV's expressed here, and that is what makes this forum so great. We may not always see eye-to-eye, but in the end, we are all there for each other.

Clearly, I struck a chord with many here when I started this thread, and I have received much support from them as well (I guess misery loves company ;)) - and not just in the posts here, but also in some of the PM's sent my way. This thread even triggered a couple of new "Friend" requests, which I also found very touching.

In the end, we all have to sort out our own personal situations by ourselves, and no two are alike. But a forum such as this and the spirited discussions that it fosters gives us the tools to at least make the best decisions possible under the circumstances...

[Kaz]

I guess this is why most of us are here... we are all in a strange place... and we are scattered... thank goodness for the web... we can touch each others lives in a way we could never have dreamed of 20 years ago...

[NicoleScott]

Leslie's post started with this:

Are the wives and SO's who try to impose DADT on us fundamentally control freaks...

DADT isn't imposed, it's an agreement, or an arrangement that both parties can live with. It's not her rules, it's agreed-to privileges with agreed-to limitations. If there ever was a DADT agreement, it sounds like Leslie wants out, wanting the privileges without the limitations.

[Eryn]

...DADT isn't imposed, it's an agreement, or an arrangement that both parties can live with. It's not her rules, it's agreed-to privileges with agreed-to limitations....

In some cases it may be, but in others it might simply be a wife deciding that it is all too much for her and deciding unilaterally that she does not wish to discuss the issue. If the husband decides not to push the issue then there is a de facto agreement, but without any attempt at compromise.

[Michelle (Oz)]

The problem with being a,"stickler for "following the rules"", is that there are many things that are just meant to be general guide lines.
There is frequently an underlying bitterness among CDers in otherwise loving marriages when our wives do not understand our need to dress. In my case there is not even a willingness to try to understand what my wife regards as abhorrent behaviour and a deal breaker.

This thread and the posts are all of keen interest to me as I come to terms with the future dealing with what seems a common situation. Many seem to wonder what life would be like out of the marriage and free to follow their heart.

Gillian’s comment relates to something my psychologist said to me that has helped me greatly in understanding my wife and reducing the bitterness I feel in having to deal with “my” problem (CDing) by myself. There is this constant frustration if my wife “totally loves” me, why won’t she at least try to understand this part of me.

As a child, my wife’s parents fought incessantly and she withdrew emotionally. She then was in a 20 year abusive marriage. The psychologist believes that she did not develop beyond the fourth stage of Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development, i.e. a focus on maintaining law and order by following the rules, doing one’s duty and respecting authority.

I therefore don't think my wife sets out to be controling but takes a rules based approach to what people think of her/us and the implications of non-normal behaviour. This has helped me understand her and reduced my bitterness. Of course, it doesn’t help resolve our/my situation and give me comfort about the future.

So do we have a situation of DADT? Does DADT require my wife to know that I dress but doesn’t talk about it? So I fit into Reine's category 1 (post #52) and Eryn's post. It is far from perfect but works for the present. There doesn't seem any hope though of changing her attitude by education and understanding.

Michelle

[NicoleScott]

So do we have a situation of DADT? Does DADT require my wife to know that I dress but doesn’t talk about it? So I fit into Reine's category 1 (post #52) and Eryn's post. It is far from perfect but works for the present. There doesn't seem any hope though of changing her attitude by education and understanding.


Yes, Michelle, most likely you are in a DADT situation. She knows you dress, but she is not accepting, doesn't like it, and doesn't want to see it or know about it. But it may be hard to distinguish between DADT and dressing in secret in some cases like yours. Usually, DADT requires her acknowledgement that you need to dress but doesn't want to know about it. If a wife snoops around, trying to find the stash or tries to catch the CDer in the act, that's not DADT because it's not Don't Ask-I don't want to know, and that forces dressing in secret. It may be splitting hairs, but as you said "it is far from perfect but it works for the present."
There aren't many perfect marriages. Most of us have to do what works for the present.

[outhiking]

The funny part is I'd never dream of demanding that my wife only wear dresses and skirts and not borrow one of my old shirts when dying her hair and use a feminine one instead. I guess it's beyond the clothes. She doesn't understand the desire for me to be feminine. To her that's the wierd part.

[Joanne f]

No i do not think that they are deep down control freaks, i think that they are deep down controled by the basic instinct that it is natural for a female to be with a male , not everyone can switch this basic instinct off of ignor it .