I wonder what the rest of the story is about the TS who end up dead.

[Nicole Erin]

Oh you are gonna just love this one it is great...

So we hear statistics about CD/TS getting hurt or killed. It hits home for us.

What I would like to know is this. The ones who suffer that fate, is it mostly -

The CD/TS who stay in safe areas, conduct themselves as women, etc.

Or is it mostly the ones who fail to mention to lovers about their true gender status until he reaches for her crotch, the CD/TS who wander around late at night, dress like hookers, prostitute themselves, date bad men, etc...

On another site I was talking to this other Ts woman who says the "community" rejects her, they say she is not a "real TS" (sound familiar?) cause she has not suffered enough, payed her dues, injected silicone in her body, had SRS, whatever...

I told her to be glad they don't consider her a "real TS".

But I think the big reason some CD/TS have such a hard time is in the real world, they conduct themselves like asses instead of ladies.

[sandra-leigh]

You can get some data for this by researching Transgender Day Of Remembrance (TDOR), which tries to collect death notices from all over the world.

Barbarita (http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/notitas-de-noticias/details/human-rights-commission-condemns-kidnapping-and-murder-of-transgender-woman/18155/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+HSN-Global-Feed+%28HSN+Global+RSS+Feed%29): Fake arrest at home, killed

Deja Jones (http://lexiecannes.wordpress.com/2012/08/29/trans-woman-shot-to-death-in-miami-police-lacking-leads/): killed during street robbery

Indi Edwards (http://lexiecannes.wordpress.com/2012/08/05/investigation-into-police-beating-of-australian-trans-woman-launched/): beaten at own home, by police (Australia), survived

Desean Bowman (http://www.wbaltv.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/Teen-s-slaying-sparks-homophobia-concern-in-black-community/-/10131532/15585986/-/cnexdhz/-/index.html#ixzz210MpgBQq): killed by stranger at a gas station

I do find a number of entries for trans people who were sex workers, but that includes those who worked in known trans prostitution areas (i.e., shock is unlikely, but post-hate becomes a problem.)

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

:eek:Oh my god, Sandra-leigh. The story about Indi Edwards is weird, and it happened after a phone call to a help line (Lifeline)?
“I called Lifeline after being rejected by my family when I told them about my surgery,” Ms Edwards, a transgender activist, said. All she was doing was seeking help and this happens.

What makes things worst is POLICE did this, so who do we turn for protection if this is how we are treated by some, how can we trust.

So it not only happens to girls who have had to prostitute themselves to survive. This is sick and so too are a number of deaths resulting from not only hatred but family and friends rejection.

TDOR is coming up soon too.:sad:

[sandra-leigh]

This is sick and so too are a number of deaths resulting from not only hatred but family and friends rejection.


In some areas, quite a high percentage of trans teens are kicked out of the house by their families. It is not uncommon for those kids to end up in sex work. Telling a 14 year old MTF who has nowhere to live to, "Just act like a lady!" is remarkably ineffective.

[ReineD]

Someone posted a link a while back to a one hour television special about transwomen world wide. One segment dealt with this very issue and featured Calpernia Adams who is a trans rights advocate. She said that what is most disturbing, is that murders of transwomen are so much more violent than other murders. There is a lot more rage involved.

And no, I don't think that a TS must be in a compromising situation in order to elicit rage from homophobes. They've been murdered just while walking their dogs in a park. :sad:

Here are links to the full series on youtube. The segment with Calpernia Adams is in the first video:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?175742-If-you-haven-t-seen-this-it-will-give-your-brain-a-run-for-it-s-money&p=2866686&viewfull=1#post2866686

[sandra-leigh]

featured Calpernia Adams who is a trans rights advocate.

Calpernia is trans; her non-trans boyfriend was murdered violently; the movie Soldler's Girl was made about the incident.

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

But I think the big reason some CD/TS have such a hard time is in the real world, they conduct themselves like asses instead of ladies.

I think that sure, there are some bad people in any group Nicole. Maybe their attitude is a result of their environment at a time of immense emotional distress. What is horrible is the degree of rage/violence that ReineD mentioned in the murders. One may never really know why but it is something that is present amongst the population. For some reason they snap, and act so violent. My god what the victims have had to endure just for being themselves throughout the gross murder.
It maybe interesting to find what percentages of murders are homophobic and the degree of violence associated compared to maybe drug/alcohol/relationship breakdow/even family members.
Oh I think I need to walk around my garden and look at the flowers although my garden is in much need of rain. :sad:
As a group, we all need support and understanding because for some of us, its our own link to sanity at times.:love:

[Kristy_K]

Even so I have never had any problems with other people. Maybe that is why my partner and I took personal self defense classes. I also pray that I never need to use what I have learn....

[pamela_a]

Has anyone seen the news lately? People are attacked, mugged, tortured, and murdered all the time all over the world. This happens while they are in the park walking their dog, or at home. Sometimes it happens to them while they're driving their car somewhere. It's even happened while they're in a religious 'sanctuary' or building. Are you trying to tell me the majority of these people are TS?

Sometimes bad things happen to trans people. Sometimes it's even because they're trans. Sometimes it's just because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Why is it that transpeople seem to blame everything bad that happens to them on their being trans....

[ReineD]

Why is it that transpeople seem to blame everything bad that happens to them on their being trans....

What struck me about Calpernia Adams' statement, was the strength of violence associated with murders of transwomen compared to other murders. I took it that she wasn't exaggerating (she might have been), when she described this.

It may not be as bad as she said.

[NathalieX66]

I've been to two transgender conferences, both had TG activist Mara Keisling speak.
According to her, and her data, close to 42% of trans people attempted suicide at one point or another. Almost twice the rate of the US military.

I also know a transsexual woman who as attempted suicide many times.

It's a sad fact, but true.

Here's a pic of Mara Keisling with Vice President Joe and Jill Biden.

[LisaMallon]

Yes our suicide rate is horrendous, either direct suicide or indirect (by drugs, etc). I doubt there is any trans person (of any type) that has not, at least, thought about it at some stage.

I have.

Sadly too many attempt it .. and far too many succeed..

[Nigella]

I doubt there is any trans person (of any type) that has not, at least, thought about it at some stage.



Sorry, but if you had bet on it, you would have lost. With hand on heart, I have NEVER considered it.

[ReineD]

Yes our suicide rate is horrendous, either direct suicide or indirect (by drugs, etc). I doubt there is any trans person (of any type) that has not, at least, thought about it at some stage.

I have.

Sadly too many attempt it .. and far too many succeed..

I'm so sorry that you were brought to that point. I hope that things are better now. :hugs:

I don't know if everyone has thought of it though, but you are correct about the staggeringly high suicide attempts. See the last paragraph on page one (from the National Center for Transgender Equality):

http://transequality.org/PDFs/NTDSReportonHealth_final.pdf


A staggering 41% of respondents reported attempting suicide compared to 1.6% of the general
population, with unemployment, low income, and sexual and physical assault raising the risk factors
significantly.

[Kathryn Martin]

Violence against transgender and transsexual persons can be divided into violence coming from the environment that is others, and violence against oneself.

Violence against transgender and transsexual persons including murder, rape, beatings etc are prevalent in the stories of transgender and transsexual individuals. The question and statement made by Nicole does however reveal a bias and and a problem at a very basic level. No one, not one single person who behaves like an ass deserves to be murdered, raped, beaten or anything other violent assault. Whether you wear mini skirts and fishnet stockings cannot ever be justification for violence of any kind.

It is the same argument or points in the same direction of people who believe rape of genetic women is justified if they dress provocatively. Sadly, this violence will never end until society as a whole recognizes the fallacy of justifying violence against persons with the victims behavior. The much higher incident of violence against transgender and transsexual persons in my view lies in the fundamental lack of understanding of society in general about these conditions.

Suicide rates, that is violence directed at self in our communities has in my view three sources.

It can arise from incongruence, identity or situational reasons. Being the victim of self directed violence (two attempts requiring outside intervention and years of suicidal ideation later in life) my situation was driven by incongruence. I have friends who attempted suicide because they could no longer deal with the pressure of having no center but being tossed between states of being. The fluidity of their self experience was so devastating that the wish to end it all became all encompassing. These two categories will always be with us.

The last category of situational suicide attempts arises from discrimination in housing, employment etc in being functional in a society such as ours. These are entirely preventable.

The actual statistics are:

41% of all transgender and transsexual persons will have attempted suicide at least once before the age of 30;

37% of all employed transgender and transsexual persons have attempted suicide;

51% of all unemployed transgender and transsexual persons have attempted suicide;

55% of transgender and transsexual persons who lost their jobs due to bias have attempted suicide;

60% of transgender and transsexual persons who work in the underground economy (that is prostitution, drugs etc) have attempted suicide;

48% of all transgender and transsexual adults have attempted suicide;

It makes me want to cry

[ReineD]

48% of all TG & TS adults, one out of every two people.

It makes me want to cry too.

What on earth can this community do to change this?

[Traci Elizabeth]

I never had those thoughts - NEVER.

But here is what I don't get: you complete transition and are living as a woman (for MTF) 24/7. Why on earth would you call yourself Trans anything? The whole point of "transitioning (again for MTF)" is to be a WOMAN! If you are a woman then how would any ill-doer or criminal know that you are anything other than a "woman?"

And who in the hell wants a "trans" label hanging on their neck?

I remember several gals on here at one time who had a "Transgender" symbol tattooed on their body in plane view! Why in hell would anyone do something so stupid? Again I am referring to MTF but isn't the goal to be a woman????????????????????????? Not Trans as the end game???????????????????????????

[Kathryn Martin]

Good for you, and the trans thing is non sequitur


I never had those thoughts - NEVER.

But here is what I don't get: you complete transition and are living as a woman (for MTF) 24/7. Why on earth would you call yourself Trans anything? The whole point of "transitioning (again for MTF)" is to be a WOMAN! If you are a woman then how would any ill-doer or criminal know that you are anything other than a "woman?"

And who in the hell wants a "trans" label hanging on their neck?

I remember several gals on here at one time who had a "Transgender" symbol tattooed on their body in plane view! Why in hell would anyone do something so stupid? Again I am referring to MTF but isn't the goal to be a woman????????????????????????? Not Trans as the end game???????????????????????????

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

Well, I have considered suicide. I planned a lot and purchased the tarps to avoid making a mess for others to clean up and had a date. I never went through with it because the day before my due date, I looked at my invalid parents and thought who would look after them. That was like an electric shock. I still think about suicide a bit even now when I get so depressed. That thought I pray will leave me, one day.

I agree with Traci, if you have transitioned why would you label yourself with trans anything. Why would you even bother visiting this site particularly when it is called "crossdressers.com".

TDOR, Transgendered Day of Remembrance

Although not every person represented during the Day of Remembrance self-identified as transgender — that is, as a transsexual, crossdresser, or otherwise gender-variant — each was a victim of violence based on bias against transgender people. quoted from TDOR website www.transgenderdor.org
It is the degree of violence focused on the victim who may fall under the transgendered umbrella and what IS the story behind it. They may have been in a relationship as man and woman but something disturbed the relationship. Sure, she may have been walking the dog at a park at the wrong time. Sure there is nothing that different to what horrible acts of violence occur around the world at any given time to humans or animals.
Its the ferocity of an attack against a person who is different in the eyes of the attacker. Its the hatred that is unleashed against someone who just want to be themselves.
It maybe a suicide that involves a person, unable to see anyway out of a mindful imprisonment who for that one point in time succeeds.
Its like... why?

[Frances]

I'm thinking about becoming a statistic right about now.

[Marleena]

48% of all TG & TS adults, one out of every two people.

It makes me want to cry too.

What on earth can this community do to change this?

Ditto..

Continuing to support each other in forums like this is important. It's one small way to improve upon those statistics.

[josee]

Please don't. We'd really miss you. I'm sure there are others who would also.

I'm thinking about becoming a statistic right about now.

[donnatracey]

Sorry, but if you had bet on it, you would have lost. With hand on heart, I have NEVER considered it.

Same here. I have to say that 48% seems awful high to me....So.....1 out of every 2 members here has contemplated suicide?? Sorry, I don't buy that. But my heart goes out to those who have....please don't!......:hugs:

[ReineD]

Frances & Suzette, :hugs:


So.....1 out of every 2 members here has contemplated suicide??

This is pure conjecture, but I'm guessing the people who are here know how to reach out so there might be fewer attempts among members? But how many TSs suffer without reaching out, and might this contribute to a higher incidence of attempts? Also, the highest rate is among transwomen working in the underground economy and they might not have the resources for regular online participation?

And last, we have only a small core of people who post here on a regular basis. How many have joined over the years, whom we never hear of again? Where are they?

I know several transwomen who have attempted suicide. I don't know any who have succeeded. And I likely know more transwomen who have attempted it, but who do not share this information.

[Jorja]

Same here. I have to say that 48% seems awful high to me....So.....1 out of every 2 members here has contemplated suicide?? Sorry, I don't buy that. But my heart goes out to those who have....please don't!......:hugs:

I would be long gone if I could have done it right the first time. After strike 3 I got the message that I was supposed to be here for a while longer so I decided to make the best of it.

[Raquel June]

Or is it mostly the ones who fail to mention to lovers about their true gender status until he reaches for her crotch, the CD/TS who wander around late at night, dress like hookers, prostitute themselves, date bad men, etc...

I think it's scary that you're blaming the victim here. Usually it's the murderer's defense lawyer who does that.




Sometimes bad things happen to trans people. Sometimes it's even because they're trans. Sometimes it's just because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Why is it that transpeople seem to blame everything bad that happens to them on their being trans....


The leading cause of death for trans people is suicide. But there have also been a lot of trans people murdered. The Transgender Day of Remembrance is not some bizarre publicity stunt blowing things out of proportion. As a trans person you're more likely to be murdered than to die of a stroke/clot/embolism from HRT.

Both of you seem pretty clueless about actual violence against trans people. Not that there are many real statistics other than TDOR's list of 645 victims, since the people writing the reports don't understand us anymore than the rest of the general public and will probably say the victim was some kind of freaky gay pervert.

But come on, there have been a lot of trans murder cases that got at least some degree of attention.

Most murder victims could've chosen a better path in life, but that doesn't make it right that they are further marginalized for being trans. Most people use some kind of "trans panic" defense, and it usually works to some degree. People get lighter sentences for killing trans people. That's why we need hate crime legislation to include gender identity, because we are so utterly disrespected.

Gwen Araujo was brutally murdered, and it was clearly for being trans, but two of the guys got 2nd degree murder and two got manslaughter, and nobody got charged with a hate crime.

Angie Zapata's boyfriend murdered her by hitting her in the face with a fire extinguisher until her skull caved in, then stole her car and credit cards. His defense was that he went crazy when he found out she was trans. Fortunately several people testified that Angie always told people she was trans before she would date them. It also came out that several days before the murder he had accompanied her to traffic court to pay some fines, and the court had used her male name, and the boyfriend wasn't confused or surprised. He also liked being penetrated (a vibrator with copious amounts of his DNA, and not hers, was introduced into evidence). I think the evidence was mostly suppressed that he was a tranny chaser and was on several dating sites and was a member of a gang that had been known to kill people for being gay.

Anyway, she obviously should've known better than to date a gang member, but it was never clear that she knew he was a gang member. She didn't know a lot of things about him, like the fact that he was dating other woman. In retrospect she should've done a background check on the guy. Maybe we should all hire private investigators to check out people we date. But it's ridiculous to blame her for doing something wrong. She was a pretty classy girl other than dating this guy.

It's just so offensive that it's actually OK for someone to use the defense that a trans person is so disgusting that they couldn't help killing them. The guy who killed Angie Zapata is one of the few people who has actually been convicted of 1st Degree Murder for killing a trans person, and that was mostly because he was clearly a monster and had six prior felony convictions.

Duanna Johnson was a prostitute, but she seemed to be treated a little more abusively than your average prostitute. The cop eventually got 2 years in prison, and then she was mysteriously found dead soon after with no suspects and not much of an investigation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ2cLyblhpc

No, people aren't breaking into office buildings and murdering trans people with desk jobs in broad daylight. But that doesn't mean trans people who get murdered were asking for it because they were poor or skanky or even hookers. Last I heard it wasn't OK to kill someone for being poor or skanky or for not telling someone what you look like with your clothes off. And when it comes to sentencing, a trans person's life shouldn't be seen as any less valuable than anyone else's.

[Kaz]

I think one of the problems here is with the stats... where do they come from, how was the data collected etc... what questions were asked (i.e. how were they worded)...

The numbers seem high to me from my knowledge of the TS community, but then I am part of a great support group... take the support away...hmmm

There is also cause and effect compared to correlation. TS could be a predisposition to suicidal ideation, but the corollary is also possible...

What I do know is that there is always light at the end of every tunnel...

Frances... we love you and want you to be around for a long time!

Kaz xx

[Kathryn Martin]

What on earth can this community do to change this?


That is a real question.


I believe we face three roots of suicidal thoughts and actions for people who are gender variant or transsexual. The first is incongruence, we struggle with realizing that we were born with a body that is disabled. The second relates to identity problems, with a sense of being adrift , unable to locate yourself within the gender paradigms society has prescribed. The third relates to situational pressures, a direct result of discrimination, denial of employment, housing, acceptance.


The first two very much relate to the conditions that burden us, situational pressure is something that anyone can face but which is particularly high among both gender variant and transsexual persons.


Occasionally on this forum someone reaches out and needs help, they post about their distress and intentions to do harm to themselves. When we look at responses that you will find to those calls for help, then they usually are either commiserating relating similar stories in the respondents own life, and assurances that a respondent “has been there” and “it gets better”. While incredibly well meaning they do nothing for a person reaching out, because they are really more about the respondent than the person suffering that very minute. Or else they empathise “I know how you feel” ,“it’s hard”, “don’t do this”, “we would miss you” etc. Again, so well-meaning but again not really at issue at the time when someone is huge distress to the point that they will do harm to themselves or at least threaten it.
Over my life I have learned that it is a question that is at the beginning of any support that can be given. In the medieval legend of Perceval, it is described that Perceval as a younger man came to Mont Salvatsch the location of Grail and the Fisher King who protected and cared for it, it’s stewart. The Fisher King was mortally wounded but could neither heal nor die because he was responsible for the care for the grail. When Perceval came before the Fisher King he failed to ask the essential question: What ails you? He showed that he was not mature enough to step into the shoes of the Fisher King and take up the responsibility for the Grail.


When confronted with a person in distress, we must ask the question: what ails you? With this question and it’s answer so often lies a hint of it’s resolution and a direction to go forward. But it means that one of us has to take the person in distress by the hand, be with them and walk with them out of the despair.


I believe that a place such as this could be a place where a distress hotline if you will could be organized - A place where someone can be assigned a member to walk with them. How to organize such thing needs to be determined but it could and would be possible.

[ReineD]

I believe that a place such as this could be a place where a distress hotline if you will could be organized - A place where someone can be assigned a member to walk with them. How to organize such thing needs to be determined but it could and would be possible.

This is a good idea, but the logistics boggle my mind. How would the phone number for a suicide prevention hot line dedicated to transpersons be made available to everyone in trouble? There would need to be an affiliation with the National Suicide Prevention Hotline, with a separate number for transpersons perhaps, such as there exists for veterans and teenagers?

http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/ (see the right side)

And this is only in the US.

Would there be special training involved for people manning those phones? I'm guessing that only transpersons would be qualified to help, since people like me, who haven't traveled that road, might say the wrong thing to a person in crisis.

I think it's doable too, and I wonder if there are trans-rights groups that are already working on something like this.

In the meantime, those of us who are reading this thread can be more mindful about asking a troubled person who posts here, what ails them. But after reading the response, it is difficult to not help in the best way that most people know, which is to speak of their own experiences and how they've overcome similar challenges?

Another concrete way to help is to join groups such as the Human Rights Campaign, and advocate for Suicide Hotline Prevention if this isn't being done already: http://www.hrc.org/

[Kathryn Martin]

Sometimes it is better to think small. What if there was the ability to contact a moderator who could refer someone on a list of members who have offered to help with this. Creating some training is not that difficult with a closed blog. Most people have a telephone and the member assigned could make their number available to the moderator who receives first contact. Something like that. Susan.org and other sites have such arrangements and people on standby. Many small hands can lift a lot of weight.

[ReineD]

I guess I was looking at the big picture.

That's a good idea Kathryn, you could ask and see. It would also depend on how many members might be willing to help, and also availability when the need arises, since it cannot be predicted who will log on when.

I would be willing to be available for one day/evening per week, as long as I received the proper training, especially since there are issues that are not possible for me to experience first hand.