At what point would one

[cyndigurl45]

At what point would one no longer be considered a crossdresser? I live and do everything as a woman, I have developed secondary sexual characteristics 36B-32-36 somewhat hour glass figure, obvious breast and a bilateral orechetomy. DL is changed Birthcert changed name changed all female. Some on other forums say NOPE not until after SRS. Am I wrong or are they wrong?

[Kate Simmons]

The question is: Who or what do you think you are? That is the most important thing.:battingeyelashes::)

[Kaz]

I agree with Kate... are you trying to escape the CD label? Labels are irrelevant... it is about you AND WHO YOU ARE!
That, we could discuss further.

Sounds to me like you are beyond CD and into TS, if you want the labels... there are people in that forum you could well do with talking to!

Kaz

[Erica2Sweet]

There is no peace in worrying about which loosely defined group openly accepts you and which does not. For the sake of happiness, what should be important is what you and those around you whom you love and cherish feel.

[Missy]

You are who you are in your own mind.
Question is how far are you will to go?

bad side is if you end up in jail would they put you in with men's or women's section
This all lays on what legally you are called and if you still have male parts or not

you can change name, have boobs, wear female cloths and make-up all the time and even look like a woman
but when it comes to the law you could still be labeled a MAN

[Karren H]

When M turns to F on the legal document of your chose....

[StarrOfDelite]

When we start talking about nuances between fetish crossdressers, androgynephiliacs and transsexuals then it seems to me that we are arguing mere semantics.

I personally would clinically describe you as a M2F transsexual, but would refer to you at all times as a woman. The bilateral orchiectomy and legal birth certificate gender change definitely should convince all reasonable minded people that your personal essence is female.

Regarding other forums: I have encountered a few people, mostly pre-op but a few post-op, who can be irritatingly snobby about who is a "pure" transsexual, and who isn't. Those people aren't representative of the vast majority of our sisters who have had or are planning to have the operation, but they are obnoxious and didactic, and it only takes one bad apple, as the saying goes.

Disclaimer: I don't belong to the Safe Haven forum on this site, and any comments made in the preceding paragraph have nothing to do with any person or persons with whom I have had interchange on Crossdressers.

In any case, a person who defines being a female as a person who has undergone sex reassignment surgery, is wrong. At the chromosomal level all of us transgendered girls will forever be genetic males, so, even if one of us chooses SRS, in a strictly scientific definition of the term she is still a male presenting as a female.

It's like the Wizard of Oz, where the Wiz presents the Tin Man with a heart-shaped clock, the Cowardly Lion with a medal for courage, and the Straw Man with a diploma to show he has a brain. You have the legal documents which prove you are a woman, and after that it is all sound and fury signifying nothing (in my opinion fwiw).

[Ashley D.]

I'm of full time yet! But I see my self as TS. I think it's all about you plan

[kimdl93]

I agree with Kate. The question is what you feel about yourself. If I were the person you describe, I would consider myself a woman. I don't care what anyone else thinks.

[sterling12]

Obviously your being very "tongue in cheek." Like a lot of us, you have probably been Transgendered from birth, and you moved toward, and into Transsexual with your first overt/covert Act of physically changing yourself. But, as usual, you as an Individual has to make that leap into Understanding.

I see your point, I think your pointing out some obvious "steps" that would move one toward The TS End of The Transgendered Spectrum. And somewhere within that Journey comes an obvious self examination that says, "Hey, it isn't just The Clothes or The Sex Thrill anymore!" "I have obviously moved onto a different plateau."

And, you know what? That's probably The Usual for just about all of us. Somewhere in our lives, we examine self, and give up some of our previous conclusions. Most thinking humans do this very same thing, why should The Transgendered be different?

Peace and Love, Joanie

[bobbimo]

Thats it Joanie!
We all start out as CD but some of us hear the other drummer and begin the march to be the woman they were supposed to be.
There is much to much importance put on labels, but we all love ya what ever label you have.
Like they say'You can call me anything you want, just don't call me late for supper"
Bobbi

[Beverley Sims]

I would have thought if your birth cert. was changed that would be the biggie.
You can get afemale passport.
What forms say no?

[cyndigurl45]

Thanks all your post were very uplifting, I suppose alot of this goes back to when I was very young and felt different and that I really liked all the pretty dresses the girls wore and wearing boys close just felt wrong some how, now when I just put on some grungy jeans and a T shirt with no makeup I know why that's wrong LOL OH I don't know talking in circles today, I so need a vacation I guess wearing a uniform has never been real girly and just need to be girly right now, there goes those circles again. .......

[Persephone]

At the chromosomal level all of us transgendered girls will forever be genetic males, so, even if one of us chooses SRS, in a strictly scientific definition of the term she is still a male presenting as a female.

Starr,

Mostly true, but some of us turn out to be a bit intersexed as well, although you may regard that as a different kettle of fish. But I have all the boy parts, was raised and lived as a boy although I always was a crossdresser, and just recently found out that I'm a mosaic -- that 15% of my cells appear to have Turner's Syndrome (XO). Found out kinda late in life, but it is likely it was there all of the time. Yes, I know I would still be defined as "chromosomally male" given the majority of XY, but other, even more complex, combinations are possible and could still result in an individual with one definable set of primary sex characteristics.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[StarrOfDelite]

Starr,

Mostly true, but some of us turn out to be a bit intersexed as well, although you may regard that as a different kettle of fish. But I have all the boy parts, was raised and lived as a boy although I always was a crossdresser, and just recently found out that I'm a mosaic -- that 15% of my cells appear to have Turner's Syndrome (XO). Found out kinda late in life, but it is likely it was there all of the time. Yes, I know I would still be defined as "chromosomally male" given the majority of XY, but other, even more complex, combinations are possible and could still result in an individual with one definable set of primary sex characteristics.

Hugs,
Persephone.

Persephone,

Thanks for the interesting and informative post, which illustrates the perils of making generalizations. I am familiar with Turner's Syndrome (one missing or abnormal X chromosome in girls), which I think affects about one in every five or six thousand female births, and Kleinfelter's Syndrome (boys with two X chromosomes instead of one), which affects about one in every two thousand male births, XYY Syndrome (boys with two Y chromosomes instead of just one, and about a 1:1000 occurrence), and the incredibly rare XXYY variation of Kleinfelter's. I was unaware until now that Turner's could be diagnosed in individuals who are identified as males at birth. It's not everyday that one learns something new about the incredible complexity of human genetics!

I have been interested in the subject of chromosomal variations since the mid-1970's when I wrote a law school paper on the now discredited theory that XYY males are more prone to criminal violence than "normal XY" males. Therefore, I'm curious if you know of any internet available research on the occurrence of gender dysphoria among individuals with any of the chromosomal variation syndromes. That would be a fun read.

p.s. I'm sure you are aware of all the stuff in parentheses, those are for readers who aren't familiar with the subject.

Hugz,

Starr