A little vote of confidence

[sandra-leigh]

I go to the "Trans Health Unit" at a city clinic, both for trans related items and as my GP. It is run as a team, so I don't always see the same doctor, but they all have access to my chart. A new doctor joined the team recently, and today was the first time I met with her. I think she'll work out well in the team.

As part of my visit I was describing a bit of my anxiety about looking for work, considering my trans situation. The first part of her reply was that I shouldn't have any problem as I pass. :) That was nice to hear! :o :battingeyelashes:

Unfortunate that it turns out to not even be close to the truth. :sad: But it was nice for a someone who deals with trans people to think so. And it was nice that she looked a bit surprised when I said I never pass.

My gender therapist doesn't understand why I don't pass more readily, other than my beard shadow (which I'm getting worked on.)

A few days ago, I was looking in the mirror, without my glasses. I'm getting older. The sags in my face are more male than female, it seems to me. There isn't any one especially male feature about my face that I could see through the blur, but it adds up to male rather than female. And people match that aggregate impression pretty quickly for me, even when I have moisturized and makeup and so on. :sigh:

[EnglishRose]

My therapist tells me "I pass more than I think I do". Unfortunately as I get instantly Sirred all the time, I find it hard to believe. It's hard trying to internally get to a place where one can mentally reconcile these experiences, I suppose.

[sandra-leigh]

Unfortunately as I get instantly Sirred all the time, I find it hard to believe.

:yt:

:violin: More times than I could possibly count. Even when Dressed completely and fashionably. :weep:

[Inna]

interesting to hear that most therapists will result to telling a half truth which really is a BIG lie in order to clinically help us deal and heal with trans dysphoria. I too have experienced such Optimism, lol while attending therapy, I was sure I did not pass then, in fact far from it, and every time she would sat me down in front of the DREADED mirror, I would tell her that she maybe needed more therapy then I since the person in a reflection was an ugly dude and not by a long shot WOMEN!

However I also found that during transition my ability to turn away from stark reality and into a world of wonderful self prescribed illusion helped tremendously through otherwise unbearable realities.

Here I am, after 2 years of transition, 2 long years of slipping into reality and depression for a while, to quickly picking self up by applying fantasy, a figment of my imagination, and somewhat happily stride forward. Now I am fully passable and none of the male trace remains, in fact I am a woman more then I ever was a man, but I have survived transition perhaps, because I was able to create image of her in my mind when reality kept poking its sharp claws of reality into my eyes.

[Persephone]

Sandra,

How do you account for the difference between what she sees and what you see? Or perhaps what she sees and what is happening out in the real world?

Could it be your body language? Your speech pattern? Your ability to project self-confidence?

You've been a helpful member here for a long time, so I'm finding it difficult to believe that passing is impossible for you. I'm an ugly old lady with a face that would stop a clock and somehow I'm making it in the real world. I can't be that much better at it than you are.

Maybe do some changes of stuff in little test batches 'till you find what works?

Hugs,
Persephone.

[ReineD]

interesting to hear that most therapists will result to telling a half truth which really is a BIG lie

It may not be a lie.

I'm so used to seeing transfolks here that I automatically think of them as their target gender. I have to look hard to see the male gender cues because I do want to see everyone the way they want to be seen. This was the case when my SO and I were first going out together. I was convinced that no one would read her. I was wrong. I think the difference is that her soul shines out to me, but it doesn't to some of the strangers out there who are more adept than others at reading gender cues.

I'm not surprised that a therapist would see the inner-self perhaps more than the exterior.

Back to Sandra-Leigh, I don't know how old you are, but you did mention signs of age in your face. It is my observation that it is easier for an older M2F to pass, since she is subconsciously being compared to GGs in her own age bracket, who have for the most part also lost the freshness of feminine youth. Older women just don't look as feminine as younger women. So there is not such a stark contrast between a 65 or 70 year old M2F's face and the same age GG, as there might be when they are both 30 or 40.

[kimdl93]

I think people do tend to adjust their perceptions based on familiarity. Most of the people that I see regularly seem to regard me as a woman...a rather tall and sever looking woman, but female. The first impressions are sometimes less favorable. I also think Reine's point is correct. It's easier to be accepted as a mature woman than as a 20 something with perfect skin etc. I'm actually ok with that.

[Persephone]

I don't know how old you are, but you did mention signs of age in your face. It is my observation that it is easier for an older M2F to pass, since she is subconsciously being compared to GGs in her own age bracket, who have for the most part also lost the freshness of feminine youth. Older women just don't look as feminine as younger women. So there is not such a stark contrast between a 65 or 70 year old M2F's face and the same age GG, as there might be when they are both 30 or 40.

I know that what you are saying is true, Reine, but you didn't have to say it out loud! Now I feel old and frumpy. :(

Hugs,
Pathetic Persephone.

[Kristy_K]

Sandra I do agree a lot with what other peoples says but when you get over fifty it is easier to pass. Not only that life is to short at that age to worry about what other people are thinking. It is more important to be yourself and start enjoying life. After all it is non of your business to know what other people are thinking...

[Traci Elizabeth]

I read once that the older we get past 50, the more difficult it is to determine gender by facial features alone. Let's face it, if we live to very old old age, we are all going to be so wrinkled up, no one is going to care anymore and we will all look the same.

[ReineD]

I know that what you are saying is true, Reine, but you didn't have to say it out loud! Now I feel old and frumpy. :(


You and me both! :sad:

[Wildaboutheels]

CONFIDENCE I think is the probably the biggest factor in leaving one's house dressed.

I also think most CDers are their own worst enemy and worry needlessly about "passing".

I feel 100 % positive that if all CDers were required to spend one full day walking around ANY mall or amusement park in Florida, they could easily spot 10 people a day that it would be very difficult to tell whether they were male or female UNLESS you actually talked to them. Skin and "bad" fashion are on display here almost year round because of the warm weather. The assortment of body sizes and types and how one chooses to "display" them is truly endless. Additionally there is no "right or wrong" way to walk and it is unwise to try to determine gender by it based on what I see in Florida and I have lived here for over 50 years.

So for people worried about "passing"? What better excuse do you need to come to Florida for a vacation and an attitude adjustment?

LATE EDIT: I should have added that it is quite common to see guys OF ALL SHAPES AND SIZES here in the Sunshine State with shaved arms [possibly gym rats] and/or shaved legs. I should add that some don't look like they could even spell gym much less use one.

[LeaP]

CONFIDENCE I think is the probably the biggest factor in leaving one's house dressed.

I also think most CDers are their own worst enemy and worry needlessly about "passing".

I feel 100 % positive that if all CDers were required to spend one full day walking around ANY mall or amusement park in Florida, they could easily spot 10 people a day that it would be very difficult to tell whether they were male or female UNLESS you actually talked to them. Skin and "bad" fashion are on display here almost year round because of the warm weather. The assortment of body sizes and types and how one chooses to "display" them is truly endless. Additionally there is no "right or wrong" way to walk and it is unwise to try to determine gender by it based on what I see in Florida and I have lived here for over 50 years.

So for people worried about "passing"? What better excuse do you need to come to Florida for a vacation and an attitude adjustment?

LATE EDIT: I should have added that it is quite common to see guys OF ALL SHAPES AND SIZES here in the Sunshine State with shaved arms [possibly gym rats] and/or shaved legs. I should add that some don't look like they could even spell gym much less use one.

The considerations, importance, and implications for a TS passing are very different than for a CD. While I understand your general points about confidence and people's perceptions (see multiple threads on same), to compare a CD walking around in an amusement park with a TS' concerns about passability at work is insensitive.

[Inna]

and so we come to the point I like to make!!!

Our community for better or worst is comprised of multitude of experience and approach and very little of concrete understanding of mechanics and realities of "What is Really Going On".
Please do not misunderstand what I am trying to say, and NO I am not saying that I know it all, but said that, I have devoted same amount of time during my transition on transitioning as well as on understanding of what it is and how you go about it.

To apply to something you must first know of what it really is, the basics of mechanics and underlying processes and proceed then applying your knowledge.

In all honesty, and this is as blunt as it gets, passing or in rather better word, visually assimilating into womanhood, is one of the most difficult processes one can undergo, inclusive of medical intervention and training of full on body motion, voice therapy, body trimming (necessary for those with large muscle mass conditioned by exposure to Testosterone).

I so often hear uneducated opinions about attitude, cocooning self in a pretend world of "I don't care what anyone says", being positive, that when people watching often you can't tell if man or a woman- REALLY?????!!!!!

I often visit the mecca of weird and unimaginable, Walmart!, and as often as I cringe at how woman and man do nothing to care even slightly for their appearance, cleanliness, respect towards presentation, not even going ass far as style, that would be simply too much to ask. But even there, in the midst of chaotic human undignified existence, I fail to be puzzled as to the gender of a person in front of me.

Lets stop pretending that this passability thing is really in your mind, IT ISN'T it is however in the eye of observer looking at you!!!!
And no, in general people are not nasty and ugly, they just respond to visual stimuli which happens without their conscious control, who they see is rather apparent with second guesses, double takes, stares of miss belief.

Those who verbally condone the individual are simply afraid or them selves carry issues and insecurities.

[pamela_a]

Would someone please define "passing". I'm so tired of reading things like this and nobody will define the terms.

A woman who was born without a birth defect never doubts she's a woman, no matter how she looks. She's a woman and she's accepted as one. Are you saying that just because a woman is born with a specific birth defect there is a different criteria? Is the woman who has piercings and colored spiked hair any less of a woman because she doesn't fit societies narrow definition of what a 'woman' is supposed to look like? What about the tomboys who would rather spend their time in jeans playing baseball and working on cars. Are they not women? Even the most "manly" looking woman never doubts who she is.

Do the same people who you give so much power over you reciprocate and let your attitude and opinions of them affect their life?

If you're a woman you're a woman. IME one of the biggest things people pick up on is your attitude about yourself. If you doubt it so will they.
Besides, why does it matter what anyone else thinks?

[Kristy_K]

CONFIDENCE I think is the probably the biggest factor in leaving one's house dressed.

I also think most CDers are their own worst enemy and worry needlessly about "passing".

I feel 100 % positive that if all CDers were required to spend one full day walking around ANY mall or amusement park in Florida, they could easily spot 10 people a day that it would be very difficult to tell whether they were male or female UNLESS you actually talked to them. Skin and "bad" fashion are on display here almost year round because of the warm weather. The assortment of body sizes and types and how one chooses to "display" them is truly endless. Additionally there is no "right or wrong" way to walk and it is unwise to try to determine gender by it based on what I see in Florida and I have lived here for over 50 years.

So for people worried about "passing"? What better excuse do you need to come to Florida for a vacation and an attitude adjustment?

LATE EDIT: I should have added that it is quite common to see guys OF ALL SHAPES AND SIZES here in the Sunshine State with shaved arms [possibly gym rats] and/or shaved legs. I should add that some don't look like they could even spell gym much less use one.

That was nicely said. And I also might add that a positive attitude does goes a long way in life Period.... But I can only relate from my personal experiences....

[Inna]

Fuzzy Logic!!!!

LOL, Passing is, being in the state of visual embodiment of all visible aspects pertaining to gender recognition. Passing is external, and therefore, it is a emotional cue Transperson receives from an onlooker, and so it is an external factor.

Being Confident, is an internal quality of ones self position and comfort. Confidence can however be undermined by the external factors such as Not Passing.

"I am a woman and that is that!" such statement does not in any measure make one passable or not, it merely makes them rigid in confinement of their own self image to that of internal. I am sure that being full of one self despite the outside stimuli will lead to negative connotation and depressive states, I may be wrong but doubt it!

We are a pack creatures, from day one seeking approval and direction from those who surround us. It does not change, the only change we make is how we gain ability to build walls to keep the negative, however the same walls keep us imprisoned within our own safe house!

[pamela_a]

Fuzzy Logic!!!!

LOL, Passing is, being in the state of visual embodiment of all visible aspects pertaining to gender recognition. Passing is external, and therefore, it is a emotional cue Transperson receives from an onlooker, and so it is an external factor.

Being Confident, is an internal quality of ones self position and comfort. Confidence can however be undermined by the external factors such as Not Passing.

"I am a woman and that is that!" such statement does not in any measure make one passable or not, it merely makes them rigid in confinement of their own self image to that of internal. I am sure that being full of one self despite the outside stimuli will lead to negative connotation and depressive states, I may be wrong but doubt it!

We are a pack creatures, from day one seeking approval and direction from those who surround us. It does not change, the only change we make is how we gain ability to build walls to keep the negative, however the same walls keep us imprisoned within our own safe house!

I guess that just shows you're still trans and not a woman. Maybe someday you'll understand

[josee]

For crying out loud, Sandra! You are 4 months younger than me. WE are not that old.
If you are not happy about your appearance then do something about it. Don't talk or even think about being too old. We still have a lot of living to do girl!

[Inna]

I guess that just shows you're still trans and not a woman. Maybe someday you'll understand

Pam, this whole conversation was about passing and not your innate sense of being, and if you think I am a transwoman then that is who I am...............in your eyes.............what are you afraid of?????? It is merely an opinion.......................

[Persephone]

Would someone please define "passing".

According to my recent proposal, "Passing Defined" (click here) (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?179700-Passsing-Defined&highlight=), as modified by discussion among the members here, passing is defined as:

"Dressing in a manner consistent with the opposite gender with the expectation of being perceived as a member of that gender in casual encounters.

"Examples include going out dressed and being acknowledged as a member of that gender in brief conversations with strangers such as sales associates, waitresses, and others."

The next step has no concrete name at the moment, maybe call it "Integration" and it would be "Dressing in a manner consistent with the opposite gender (i.e., the non-birth gender) and being considered a member of that gender by others in extended situations such as working, belonging to social clubs, etc."

Still open to comments and may require some wording changes.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[LisaMallon]

There is passing .. and 'passing'. I got 2 compliments recently.

One, from a trans girl (actually a trans prostitute.. I know some weird people) who I have been working on to try and get her out more into .. well 'normal' trans society.
She said I was the best looking girl at a recent night out at a trans venue.. except for my face. Thanks.

The other was another tgirl (different event) who said 'you look so passable'.

I don't think I look passable, well not yet .. as we all say ... one day.

Context is everything.

[stefan37]

I was just talking to my therapist about this topic in a way the other night. I am starting to express a more feminine image in dress and body language. My hair is cut in a feminine hair style and I wear nail polish and eyemakeup. I do get female pronouns from the rear but usually in a face to face encounter I get male pronouns. I have only been on hormones for 3 months and I feel as if I'm in a very awkward position. I have facial hair even that has been an ongoing process for the past 9 months. I am learning to be patient and allow the hormones and nature to do their work. When all is said and done there is a real possibility that while living as a female I will still be seen as male by some. Since that is a probable outcome barring any surgeries at this time, I have to internalize my feelings of being a women and have the confidence to project that image of myself while encountering people in day to day situations. I am finding by not obsessing about how I am perceived by others and just living my life as I see fit helps tremendously in dealing with my gid. It is not always easy, but I find it is becoming easier and although people are sometimes confused I am well received.

[pamela_a]

Pam, this whole conversation was about passing and not your innate sense of being, and if you think I am a transwoman then that is who I am...............in your eyes.............what are you afraid of?????? It is merely an opinion.......................

I guess you have your definitions and I have mine. I'm not afraid of anything except the things any other woman has to fear.

The definition of passing appears to be all about physical attributes and convincing everyone else about who you are. How can you do that successfully if you're not mentally convinced about who you are?

[LeaP]

I guess you have your definitions and I have mine. I'm not afraid of anything except the things any other woman has to fear.

The definition of passing appears to be all about physical attributes and convincing everyone else about who you are. How can you do that successfully if you're not mentally convinced about who you are?

That sounds like a completely different topic to me.

[Inna]

I guess you have your definitions and I have mine. I'm not afraid of anything except the things any other woman has to fear.

The definition of passing appears to be all about physical attributes and convincing everyone else about who you are. How can you do that successfully if you're not mentally convinced about who you are?

In all my conversation and deriving an opinion I have not said anything towards you nor have I pointed to any connotation or derogatory comment about you merely stating what I believe passing condition is, however you took upon your self to lash out at me for my views and direct a personal attack at who you believe I am!
What is YOUR PROBLEM????!!!!!

[pamela_a]

In all my conversation and deriving an opinion I have not said anything towards you nor have I pointed to any connotation or derogatory comment about you merely stating what I believe passing condition is, however you took upon your self to lash out at me for my views and direct a personal attack at who you believe I am!
What is YOUR PROBLEM????!!!!!

Now you're upset with me? Post 17 you were laughing at me and my viewpoint. That's ok.. I'll just be quiet now and admit I know nothing. :straightface:

For the record...it's Mrs. Know Nothing

[sandra-leigh]

For crying out loud, Sandra! You are 4 months younger than me. WE are not that old.

Heh. I didn't say "old", just "older". And remember the bit about "without my glasses". Everything looks rounder when I don't have my glasses on.


Even the most "manly" looking woman never doubts who she is.

My mother has told me of some of her own gender doubts, and a bit about her thoughts of where those doubts might have originated. I would be surprised if she was transgender at all, but she did have her doubts none-the-less.


The considerations, importance, and implications for a TS passing are very different than for a CD. While I understand your general points about confidence and people's perceptions (see multiple threads on same), to compare a CD walking around in an amusement park with a TS' concerns about passability at work is insensitive.

Yes, that point is relevant to the concerns I was briefly relaying to the doctor that day, concerns having to do with getting a job while being trans (eventually, when I get over this fatigue and difficulty concentrating.) The doctor didn't seem to be trying to flatter me when she said that I passed. She was not polyanna-ing; she proceeded to indicate that it can be difficult for trans people to get jobs working (face to face) with the public, but that working in an office shouldn't be a particular problem. (Note in this regard: we are in Canada, which has a relatively successful culture of non-discrimination, and which does not have "at will" firing laws; her responses should be considered within local social context.)

I am generally treated acceptably well in public. Yes, I had a bicyclist mutter an expletive and "fruit" a few seconds after he went by me today, but that doesn't even happen every month. I get Sir'd a lot, but it rarely seems to be said "ironically" or with ill-intent. More like it is said automatically, brains providing pronouns without consistency checking. But a job... a quite different matter, alas.

I do expect that when/if I make it to interviews, that "projection of normalcy" will be important. This is not quite the same as projection of an internal confidence that I am female: rather it is projection of ideas such as "everything's fine" and "this is how I am and it isn't going to be a problem in the workplace because it is just how I am, just background, not something I'm going to be obsessing over".

I know some people who go into job interviews with an attitude of "you should give me this job because life has treated me so poorly!" and "you should give me priority because I'm transsexual and so many people discriminate against transsexuals!". Potential employers pick up on that attitude and project trouble. The opposite to that attitude not really "Treat me like any other female", but rather is closer to "My being trans is not important; let's look at what I can do for your company."

Projection of normalcy will be important for me as I am myself still not at all convinced that I am transsexual, at least not in the usual sense. But I'm not going back to being male. If there's an accident, rebuild me as the Bionic Woman, not as the Six Million Dollar Man!

[Inna]

Honestly, I read and reread the post, I see no mention of you or your name, I speak in the general sense trying to answer question of passability and what it means to me!
If you feel that any of my statements were directed at you in a condescending way please accept my apology, honestly I often speak of controversial subjects but never against someone in particular. The most I ever said was generalizations of WE instead of ME which were used under "Creative License" as someone put it, lol.

I know that speaking of passing ability or not, is one of many highly emotional subjects, and can often create negative connotations simply by its nature. But I thought that especially here, a transsexual forum, we were good for an open honest discussion.

Once again all of my statements are generalizations and speak of the subject and are not directed at anyone in particular :)

[Jay Cee]

Sandra:

As someone who has met you in person: I could walk past you on the street, and it's very doubtful that I would know that you were anything but female. And I'm pretty good at spotting that. I'm thinking that this is more to do with confidence than anything. Understandable, given the difficult situation you are finding yourself in with work, as well as overcoming a lifetime of the "programming" trans people have to deal with regarding gender.

Maybe go a bit easier on yourself.

Hugs to you

Jay Cee