This is why I find DADT so frustrating...(a GG perspective)

[Moxie]

Moderator Note: This was originally posted to the "This is why I find DADT so frustrating..." thread, but was diverting the thread from its original course. This diversion contained some interesting thoughts so the thread was split.

Wow, this is why I have avoided joining this forum despite my H's encouragement. Posts like this one make me cringe. Since when did CD become something us wives MUST be involved in? Is this YOUR hobby or ours? Please forgive my anger here, but I get so confused and, yes, resentful, when I hear men whinge about DADT as thought somehow we NEED to be a part of your CD lives.

Why??

I don't understand this and probably never will. This is a huge problem in my own marriage as I have NO desire to be involved in my H's dressing and yet he continually pressures me to do just that. Yet, he has zero problem when I'm not interested in watching a sport game he's watching. And yes, he's very passionate about sport!! So what gives? Can't you just do this without involving us? I don't like my H's dressing because, despite what he sees when looking in a mirror, I see my H in a dress and he looks sort of silly. Doesn't matter how well he's dressed or how good his makeup, he's still just my H looking silly. No offense to anyone here as this is not a comment about all of you, just my personal feelings. I understand it's an urge, a need, but from a GG perspective, it's a very strange one! So is this really how he wants me to see him? As silly and strange? Surely it's better then, that I don't, and that he indulges this need without completely destroying how I see him as a man. Because, believe me, once we get that image of you in full dress in our minds, we CANNOT get it out, and if we don't like what we saw (which is usually the case) we won't like how we see you from then on even when you're in male mode. Of this I am certain. So maybe it's time some of the men on here acknowledge that it's not always good for us to see this side of you, and if you can't tolerate DADT, then perhaps the control issue isn't just with the wife.

Anyway, sorry for stealing this thread but this is a pet peeve of mine, has been the entire five years I've known of my H's dressing, and given the responses on this thread I'm better off leaving and letting him spend all day out with other GG's who apparently make him feel good. Funny that, given THEY don't have to live with it. Believe me, were they living with this, they might see this as something other than a quaint quirk. And maybe, just maybe, these other GG's are just being polite. I know I would be amused and even curious if I had a CD client. But marrying him? I don't think so!

Just my two cents, for whatever the thoughts of a GG are worth here.

[ColleenA]

Doormat, I just want to make a few comments. I don't intend to try to convince you to let him have everything his way; rather, I just hope that a few things can be clarified for your benefit. (BTW, I notice this is your first post. Thank you for being willing to express your thoughts here. I hope you don't fear I or anyone else will attack you.)


Since when did CD become something us wives MUST be involved in? Is this YOUR hobby or ours? ... I have NO desire to be involved in my H's dressing and yet he continually pressures me to do just that.

DADT generally refers to zero acceptance of the dressing done by one's spouse - "keep it hidden," "don't let me see anything to do with it" - which sounds like your position. Understand, though, there are various levels beyond DADT.

One level is basic tolerance - acceptance that the spouse is going to dress as they like around the house. Another level is mild participation - this may include calling them by a femme name and otherwise referring to/interacting with them as a female. One intense level involves going out in public with "her," such as shopping outings. Another intense, but much different, level takes it into the bedroom - enough said about that. As is readily evident from various threads on this site, there are members in each of these situations.

Separately, is this something he would do, say, once a week? Or is it something that, given the chance, would last from the time he gets home from work until he leaves again the next morning?



Yet, he has zero problem when I'm not interested in watching a sport game he's watching. And yes, he's very passionate about sport!!

First, let's apply those levels I mentioned to sports. Do you accept that he is going to watch, say, a Yankees baseball game, and so find something else to do with your time? Do you learn enough about his favorite teams that you can respond some when he talks about them? Or do you take/fake enough interest to actually watch games, not throughout the season, but at least when the team goes to the playoffs?

Now, let me make a huge distinction between his interest in sports and his interest in cross-dressing. The first is something he can share with plenty of other people, be it family - his dad, his brothers, his sons - or friends or even co-workers he has little else in common with. He can find many outlets readily available for interaction and support of this interest.

But, I expect, he has no one to turn to regarding dressing up. So he looks to you, hoping not just for acceptance, maybe not even for simple support, but for the chance to share and interact with one other person. More importantly, if he's like me, he is looking for affirmation for this part of himself from someone he loves, something almost no one else can provide. And why not his spouse? After all, you're the person he gets intimate with in other ways. Why, he reasons, shouldn't he safely be able to share this most private part of himself with you?


You, however, have a problem with it. As you say:


I don't like my H's dressing because, despite what he sees when looking in a mirror, I see my H in a dress and he looks sort of silly. ... So is this really how he wants me to see him? As silly and strange? Surely it's better then, that I don't, and that he indulges this need without completely destroying how I see him as a man. Because, believe me, once we get that image of you in full dress in our minds, we CANNOT get it out ...

I get that this outer reality, which you must look at, in no way matches his internal self-image. But is that fundamentally any different from overweight women who wear tight clothes and see themselves as sexy? Or from men with dead-rat toupees on their heads?

He's not asking you to actually see him as a woman in reality, but to humor him in his fantasy. Trust me, if I ask my SO to play with my "boobs," I am not deluded into thinking that I actually boast D cups. But I temporarily ignore the reality for the sake of having fun via my imagination.

So, unless there is no way you are willing to accommodate his dressing at all, what you might consider is negotiating with him what limits you can tolerate. If so, include the distinct message that you are doing this for him, not for anything you want yourself. That then is a defense later against, having given him an inch, seeing him try to take a mile.

[Moxie]

Thank you, ColleenA, for responding to my questions/concerns. And yes, I do fear attack on here - hence my reason to lurk for many months; however I possibly don't care any more what anyone thinks of me or my opinions as I'm struggling too much in my marriage to care and if I get any advice from here that helps then the attacks were worth it.

Anyway, again, thanks. I've had these conversations time and again with my H and I now find them pointless. He has his position and I have mine and we are STUCK! But currently our agreed on boundaries haven't been breeched (once a week, not around the kids, not in public etc) but I know he wants to add me into this equation and I just can't do it. I'm already traumatized by discovering a photo of my H fully dressed on our computer. I can't explain how I felt as I feel I just hurt people here. But I felt...scared and a little sick. Not because he looked terrible or anything as he actually looks very good! But sick in that way when you feel something isn't quite right...when you think someone is lying or talking behind your back or just doing something generally wrong. I felt that when I saw his photo because I felt he was hiding behind this female outfit, and possibly I also wonder if he isn't schizophrenic!

Sorry again if I offend.

This general wrong feeling has been very hard to overcome. Even when I think "it's just clothes, who cares", or "he is just having fun, what's the harm" I know I don't believe myself. I want my H to be a whole and happy person, an authentic person. The funny, handsome, secure man I married. But I struggle to see this now. I now see a man who hides behind women's clothes and makeup and who seems terribly insecure and confused as to why he does this. And yes, he's done it all his life, yet still he can't tell me why. Why do grown men play dress up? And why is it so hard for you all to see how strange this is for a GG? We want to understand and support the man we love, but we want a whole and happy man, not a man living a double life. That's not an authentic life, at least in my book it's not.

Perhaps I'll never accept or understand and should take note from the comments here that happiness might come from being apart. I don't know. I just know I love my H with all my heart, but the CD makes him very hard to like.

Again, sorry if I have offended anyone and for stealing this thread. Today I am just very sad.

[Paula_56]

Wow, this is why I have avoided joining this forum despite my H's encouragement. Posts like this one make me cringe. Since when did CD become something us wives MUST be involved in? Is this YOUR hobby or ours? Please forgive my anger here, but I get so confused and, yes, resentful, when I hear men whinge about DADT as thought somehow we NEED to be a part of your CD lives.

Why??

I don't understand this and probably never will. This is a huge problem in my own marriage as I have NO desire to be involved in my H's dressing and yet he continually pressures me to do just that. Yet, he has zero problem when I'm not interested in watching a sport game he's watching. And yes, he's very passionate about sport!! So what gives? Can't you just do this without involving us? I don't like my H's dressing because, despite what he sees when looking in a mirror, I see my H in a dress and he looks sort of silly. Doesn't matter how well he's dressed or how good his makeup, he's still just my H looking silly. No offense to anyone here as this is not a comment about all of you, just my personal feelings. I understand it's an urge, a need, but from a GG perspective, it's a very strange one! So is this really how he wants me to see him? As silly and strange? Surely it's better then, that I don't, and that he indulges this need without completely destroying how I see him as a man. Because, believe me, once we get that image of you in full dress in our minds, we CANNOT get it out, and if we don't like what we saw (which is usually the case) we won't like how we see you from then on even when you're in male mode. Of this I am certain. So maybe it's time some of the men on here acknowledge that it's not always good for us to see this side of you, and if you can't tolerate DADT, then perhaps the control issue isn't just with the wife.

Anyway, sorry for stealing this thread but this is a pet peeve of mine, has been the entire five years I've known of my H's dressing, and given the responses on this thread I'm better off leaving and letting him spend all day out with other GG's who apparently make him feel good. Funny that, given THEY don't have to live with it. Believe me, were they living with this, they might see this as something other than a quaint quirk. And maybe, just maybe, these other GG's are just being polite. I know I would be amused and even curious if I had a CD client. But marrying him? I don't think so!

Just my two cents, for whatever the thoughts of a GG are worth here.

Someone just opened a window feel the fresh air, thanks for the other side of the story, not what we want to hear but I suspect it's pretty typical of most wives.

[TxKimberly]

I wouldn't have a problem with my wife not wanting anything to do with it, in fact that IS pretty much where my wife and I are at. The "problem" in the OP, is that the wife wasn't happy with just not being a part of it, but instead felt compelled to make Leslie feel like shit about it the night before - again something that I also see with my wife from time to time.

Wanting nothing to do with it is perhaps understandable and livable, but being mean and hurtful about Leslie going out is a bit more than that isn't it?

Doormat, as Paula said, your viewpoint IS wanted here, whether it is flattering to us or not, hurtful to us or not, it is an honest opinion from a woman who loves one of us.

[NicoleScott]

Agree, Kimberly. That, and no longer making any bones about going out as Leslie, the blame is shared for the breakdown of DADT, if it was ever DADT. Both Leslie's and Doormat's situations are sad, but let's not blame DADT because neither of those situations are DADT. DADT works for those that make it work.

[ColleenA]

Since when did CD become something us wives MUST be involved in? ... I don't understand this and probably never will... Anyway, sorry for stealing this thread but this is a pet peeve of mine ...

It sounds to me like you need to talk about this further, but of course this thread is not the place. One possibility is to create your own thread in this forum asking CDs why they do it; I would be happy to reply to you. Another is to join the FAB forum. From the intro there:

"F.A.B. members (Female at Birth) ... have a private forum that you may like to join, specifically for F.A.B. members only. ... There are rules regarding access, which do seem a little harsh, but please forgive us for that, it is just a precaution to make our F.A.B. Forum a safe haven."

I expect you would find there women encompassing a wide range of reactions toward their SOs' dressing, from acceptance through to absolute rejection, but at least you should at least have the opportunity to vent to and hear from others in the same position as you, as opposed to someone like me who can offer sympathy but simply cannot relate.

[NicoleScott]

It isn't stealing the thread. This is about pushing crossdressing activities beyond DADT and wondering what the problem is. That is the similarity between Leslie's situation and Doormat's.

[ColleenA]

In terms of looking at DADT versus any involvement of the SO, I agree with you, Nicole; comments here are quite appropriate. But in her second post, DoorMat (like Sara Jessica, I too have a hard time calling her that) mentions wondering why grown men play dress up. That is the discussion that I didn't want to see take over this thread.

[Wildaboutheels]

Why won't people just accept the fact that EVERY single one of us probably has something that we are completely inflexible about? If a SO won't accept something and has their feet firmly planted, trying to discuss that something with them or compromise or convince them to change their beliefs is likely only going to make things worse.

It doesn't matter how long you beat a dead horse. He is still never going to get up and all you are going to do is wear YOURself out.

[Pexetta]

Someone just opened a window feel the fresh air, thanks for the other side of the story

+1

That's why I love cd.com, there are few other places where opposite perspectives come together like this.

[ReineD]

I don't understand this and probably never will. This is a huge problem in my own marriage as I have NO desire to be involved in my H's dressing and yet he continually pressures me to do just that.

Hi DM, welcome to the forum! :hugs: (I'm a GG too).

I'm so glad that you decided to join the site and participate in this thread. This is a great opportunity to see both sides of the fence at the same time. I also fully agree that we cannot compare a GG nail tech or SA who treats a CDer as a platonic friend (just like a friendship with another GG or a gay man), to a wife who has difficulty taking in the feminine part of her husband. Also, it's OK to share how you feel from your heart. Many of the members here will understand, because they have similar situations with their own wives and they just want to make things better, just like you do. You might, however, start your own thread about this, which would be a better place for the members to answer your questions about why they dress ... so as to not derail too much from Leslie's thread.

Anyway, I wanted to ask you, and this is very much in topic with Leslie's situation ... how exactly does your husband pressure you to be involved in the CDing? I have a feeling that you and your husband have two completely different understandings of what "to be involved" means and I suspect this is the situation between Leslie and her wife as well. So if you would answer this, I think I may be able to help.

:hugs:

[TxKimberly]

. . . I also fully agree that we cannot compare a GG nail tech or SA who treats a CDer as a platonic friend (just like a friendship with another GG or a gay man), to a wife . . .

I'm not sure if this is taking the thread too far off of topic or not, but this in itself is an interesting observation. It has been obvious to me for a while now that quite a few women, maybe even most women, are quite all right with the idea of one of us. Many might even find the idea fascinating. There is a catch though - it is interesting and perhaps admirable as long as it is SOME ONE ELSE'S HUSBAND! When it is YOUR husband, it is no longer cute or interesting! LOL

Also, and to get a bit more on topic, you really can't place a whole lot of stock on the fact that SA's and the like are kind, good natured, and friendly to us. After all, this is their job and they are paid specifically to treat people well. When a person approaches you in a social setting and spends time to have a conversation with you, this is friendship. A salesperson engaging you, spending time with you, and helping you to feel good about yourself is just someone doing a good job. Don't get me wrong, they might be sweet people and might even actually enjoy spending time with you, but when you boil it down, their core motivation is to do their job well.

[Moxie]

Anyway, I wanted to ask you, and this is very much in topic with Leslie's situation ... how exactly does your husband pressure you to be involved in the CDing? I have a feeling that you and your husband have two completely different understandings of what "to be involved" means and I suspect this is the situation between Leslie and her wife as well. So if you would answer this, I think I may be able to help.

:hugs:

Hi ReineD. Sorry I didn't reply immediately but I went away and had a think about this whole situation. And sorry for changing topic on this thread - I don't really want to discuss the WHYS of CD as I feel this is a question with no answer and a thousand answers. No point dwelling too much on this as I'll only turn myself inside out!

Back to DADT, the real problem I'm having is visualizing my otherwise masculine husband in women's attire as it makes my stomach turn despite my open mind, and my H pushing me to help him dress so we can then sit about chatting like friends. I also guess he wouldn't mind if intimate relations entered this equation as he is a CD motivated by both comfort and sex.

But what he doesn't seem to understand is I don't want to sit and chat with my husband like girlfriends. I have plenty of them already. What I don't have plenty of are husbands! The very idea that he thinks I would want to participate in such an activity causes me untold resentment. He also seems to think I would enjoy helping him transform into this alter ego, like I'm still some giggling teenage girl obsessing over make up and outfits. I'm a busy married career woman with two children and a mortgage. When I get three spare minutes in my day I can think of THREE HUNDRED other things I'd rather do than act like a teenage girl with my H.

And the sex thing? Yep, no point going there really. My H has this weird deluded theory that everyone loves femininity, even on men. He honestly can't imagine why I'm not turned on by boobs and lace and long hair and that if I'd just compromise and give this a try I might actually like it. I want to kill him during these conversations. He really has NO clue what it's like be a heterosexual woman. No clue.

So here we are, in some strange DADT situation where I'm actually quite content when I'm not involved with the CD as he's a great husband and father and before all this came to light five years ago, life was good. But DADT is apparently no longer working for him and with the way things are going, I can see our good life turning very, very sour. I don't want to compromise on who I am any further than I already am doing. Just being married to a man who dresses like a woman is beyond my personal and sexual comfort zone. Why can't he see I'm already compromising by just staying married to him? And why did he give his mother and father and brother the respect of not dressing around them when he lived at home (none of whom still have any clue my H is a CD) yet he can't give me this same respect?

Anyway, sorry this is so long. I'm sure there is more here that I've not mentioned or thought of, and I'm certain I've insulted everyone again, but I never imagined my life and marriage would turn in this direction and I'd give anything to have it turn back to the way it was. :sad:

And I fully intend on changing my name on here at some point, lol. Perhaps to FluffyBathMat? But right now DoorMat fits perfectly, as life sure is wiping its feet on me at the moment.

And sorry, one other thing: if everyone wouldn't mind referring to my H as a 'he' if they do respond to my endless questions, that would be very helpful. I know many of you prefer 'she', but I didn't marry a female and the very idea I would ever address my H as 'she' just pushes me further along the "I give up" line.

Thanks.

[giuseppina]

Hello Doormat

I'm wondering if a licensed but nonjudgemental marriage counsellor might help you and your DH get over your differences. A member of the clergy is probably not appropriate here.

What you describe is rather like what we call pink fog, that is, gone a bit off the deep end with crossdressing without considering what his partner thinks.

Unless he slows down drastically, I see you becoming more resentful of the crossdressing. It isn't helping now, and unless things change, things are going to get worse.

It would be good for your DH to have his own account here. It sounds to me he needs to be brought back to reality. If there is something underlying his dressing, that has to be worked out separately, and a counsellors assistance is likely the quickest way to get this in the open, if he will go.

[Marleena]

But what he doesn't seem to understand is I don't want to sit and chat with my husband like girlfriends. I have plenty of them already. What I don't have plenty of are husbands! The very idea that he thinks I would want to participate in such an activity causes me untold resentment. He also seems to think I would enjoy helping him transform into this alter ego, like I'm still some giggling teenage girl obsessing over make up and outfits. I'm a busy married career woman with two children and a mortgage. When I get three spare minutes in my day I can think of THREE HUNDRED other things I'd rather do than act like a teenage girl with my H.

And the sex thing? Yep, no point going there really. My H has this weird deluded theory that everyone loves femininity, even on men. He honestly can't imagine why I'm not turned on by boobs and lace and long hair and that if I'd just compromise and give this a try I might actually like it. I want to kill him during these conversations. He really has NO clue what it's like be a heterosexual woman. No clue.

So here we are, in some strange DADT situation where I'm actually quite content when I'm not involved with the CD as he's a great husband and father and before all this came to light five years ago, life was good. But DADT is apparently no longer working for him and with the way things are going, I can see our good life turning very, very sour. I don't want to compromise on who I am any further than I already am doing. Just being married to a man who dresses like a woman is beyond my personal and sexual comfort zone. Why can't he see I'm already compromising by just staying married to him? And why did he give his mother and father and brother the respect of not dressing around them when he lived at home (none of whom still have any clue my H is a CD) yet he can't give me this same respect?


Doormat it sounds like your husband needs a reality check based on what you're saying here. Only you can do that. Does he know how you really feel? I'm not being judgemental here btw as I know some SO's cannot deal with it, and I get it. It cannot and should not be forced on anybody.

[heatherdress]

DoorMat - Thanks for your honesty and candor. I can't help but feel your H has placed his needs beyond yours and your marriage. I hope you can convince him to get help.

[daphne_pynk]

Hi DoorMat, I can understand where your coming from. My wife and I had long conversations into the night about CD'ing and and what we have found for her it was more of a breach of trust then anything else for us. she married me with herself fully exposed and open to me while i hid this dark secret from her. She felt tricked and betrayed and that's why she resented my CD'ing at first.

once we built our marriage up again she also discussed a few other things that i didn't think of at all.

she's not a lesbian, she married a man, she's attracted to men and if she wanted a chick she would have got one. I can't force her to change what she likes and i haven't ever tried but its good to just say it. Also if i'm both the man and the woman in the relationship...what the hell is she doing here? she felt like she was either being pushed out of her roll in the marriage or into the male roll. We worked most it out but it took almost a year of talk.

Could it be that also CD'ing represents the feeling of a breach of trust in your marriage?

[Stephenie S]

Yeah. I second and third most of what's been said so far.

Doormat? Your hubby is mistreating you. You know it, I know it, he probably knows it too on a deeper level than he is working on right now. The only person who can call a halt to this is you. He is operating on a fantasy level and he needs a little grounding from you.

Now I don't mean to say that he is deliberately trying to sabotage your marriage. I'm sure he's not. But that is what is gonna happen if you can't bring him down to earth.

There's a LOT of fantasy in crossdressing and your guy is caught up in fantasy. If you don't want to participate in his crossdressing just tell him so. There is no law that says you have to. If you don't want to sit around and chat with him when he is dressed, then don't do it. Go out. Go to bed. Take a bath. He'll get the idea. If you don't want to go shopping with him, TELL him. Just don't do it. You don't want to help him with his makeup? Don't do it. There's no law that says you have to. There's no "Crossdressing Rule Book". I learned how to put on MY makeup. So did you. Let him learn how to put on his own darn makeup.

It sounds like you have a few rules. They are called boundaries on this forum. And any crossdresser who wants to stay married abides by them. Those few who continually try to "push" the boundaries are the ones who end up with a big lawyer fee and child support payments.

Look, not very many women ask for a crossdressing husband. It's not a pleasant discovery for most wives. But really, it's a pretty harmless hobby if it doesn't take over his life. That's what boundaries are for.

You say, "OK, I hate your crossdressing, but if you don't shove it in my face, I can live with it. Lets make some rules."

And then you sit down together and make some rules. It sounds like you are well on the way to doing that already. Good.

It also sounds like he is having trouble abiding by those rules. Not so good. Maybe there should be consequences. He's a grownup. Grownups can handle consequences.

I can't tell your hubby that he's acting like jerk. I'm not there. If I was I'd tell him. But you're there. The ball is kinda in your court.

Your marriage can survive crossdressing. But there needs to be a few rules. Suppose he wanted to take up rock climbing? That's a VERY dangerous sport. You could say NO. "No rock climbing for you buddy. Not if you want to stay married to me." Or, instead of forbidding it, you could lay down a few rules: Only with a guide. Only in July and August. Only $100 a month. Not until the kids are grown. Whatever. I dunno. A few rules. Do the same thing.

You can do it. Your marriage is probably worth it.

Stephenie

[ReineD]

And sorry, one other thing: if everyone wouldn't mind referring to my H as a 'he' if they do respond to my endless questions, that would be very helpful. I know many of you prefer 'she', but I didn't marry a female and the very idea I would ever address my H as 'she' just pushes me further along the "I give up" line.

Thanks for mentioning this. I'll keep it in mind. I refer to my own SO as "he" when he's in male mode, as "she" when in female mode, and sometimes as "s/he" which is how I've come to think of him. So if I let a "she" slip in, please put it down to an oversight on my part, and not an attempt to offend.

:hugs:

Just so you know, my SO dresses an average of twice weekly ... once on her own during the week to go out in the next town over at a Starbucks (with laptop and office work) and once on weekends when we go out, again in the next town over, for either an afternoon of doing Saturday afternoon stuff and dinner. Lately though, he's been averaging about once every two weeks because he's so busy at work. And he rarely feels the need to dress at home, although she did dress exclusively at home (the frequency would vary) for years before she learned how to go out and blend in everywhere. Oh, and my SO finds it is in his best interest to live according to society's rules, which is to keep his gender identity private from people at work, his elderly parents, my kids and my ex, and our more traditional-minded friends.




He also seems to think I would enjoy helping him transform into this alter ego, like I'm still some giggling teenage girl obsessing over make up and outfits.


My H has this weird deluded theory that everyone loves femininity, even on men. He honestly can't imagine why I'm not turned on by boobs and lace and long hair and that if I'd just compromise and give this a try I might actually like it. I want to kill him during these conversations. He really has NO clue what it's like be a heterosexual woman. No clue.

He's projecting what he wants onto you. And it does sound like Pink Fog, in that he has lost sight of age-appropriate reality. Women past their teenage years do not spend evenings having girly nights of makeup and nail polish. I mean I understand his enthusiasm since it is all relatively new to him (and likely he is still very much in the closet?), but he needs to recognize that the focus on girly fun is unique to him and other CDers who are in his shoes, namely the CDers who are allowing themselves for the first time in their lives to push past all the male taboos, the major one being "THOU SHALT NOT LOOK LIKE A GIRL NOR BEHAVE IN A GIRLY MANNER". :p

He does need to dress though, and if you are interested enough to learn why, you will gain a better understanding of this by posting specific questions here (over a period of time ... you don't have to do this all at once) to get a variety of answers. This is what I did, and the biggest difference it made in my life is that my SO and I have an absence of conflict over the CDing. Honestly we do, and I've got to tell you that it's more peaceful living this way than resenting a part of my SO that he cannot help being.

But, trust me, all of this takes time and also requires some major deconstruction on our parts about what we think we know about gender. As obvious as this is, I need to say that our SOs, even though they are not transsexual (they do not wish to become women), do not have the same type of gender identity as do men who do not CD.



my H pushing me to help him dress so we can then sit about chatting like friends. I also guess he wouldn't mind if intimate relations entered this equation as he is a CD motivated by both comfort and sex.

OK. The only part of the above quote that I can see from your husband's POV, is a desire to spend a few hours with you dressed, and this is because he wants you to accept his need to be feminine occasionally, which is an integral part of his psyche. It's not a hobby. I've got to say though, that the time spent does not need to be vacuous (doing things that teenage girls do). You can talk about current events, the kids, watch the same type of movie that you always watch together, share a meal and discuss your respective days, or any number of things that you do together when he's in guy mode. My SO is the same person in thoughts and in deed, whether s/he is dressed or not. And I do not see a different person, whether he is in guy mode or girl mode, even though I did in the beginning since seeing him dressed was such a departure from his male look.

As to the other parts of your quote, your husband would do well to realize that it is not a good idea to ask a wife who is turned off of the CDing to help him get dressed or put makeup on. Not a good idea at all. Also, he may wish to be sexual with you while dressed, but hopefully this is not something that he's pushing onto you. Above all else, partners need to respect each other's sexual boundaries. Not doing this spells major libido issues later on for the person who feels pushed.

I hope you will stick around DM. Not because I want to see you "convinced" that the CDing is the best thing since sliced bread, but because I believe that any wife who is married to a CDer will be happier if she at least begins to understand where it is coming from, which will help her dispel any stomach-knot-making notions of what she thinks it is all about.

[jaanine]

i wish i never read this post there is a marriage that aint gonna last just as mine didnt and its sad

[Lynn Marie]

Doormat, you're a gem. You've nailed the unhappy wife's side of DADT perfectly. It surely is not your obligation to embrace our "silly" hobby. It's bad enough that you even have to know it goes on when you're not around. I've already been through this. Like I said in the other thread, DADT doesn't work. There's just no way for the wife to get this ridiculous image of her man in a dress out of her mind whenever she sees him. Ridicule is the obvious reaction. I just don't see how we can expect anything less. On the extremely rare instance where the wife can actually embrace our silly hobby then the marriage has a chance. Otherwise it is just an exercise in toleration.

[Amanda_P]

What does DADT mean anyway. I've never heard it before

[noeleena]

Hi, D M,

Iv looked at this issue from another perspictive as im not a dresser or trans & how would i cope if i could with a mate that is a male. iv gone over a lot of issues,
I know i can accept others who dress as us or are trans & with a need , iv had to look at this from a womans view mine.

Okay i know there are quite a few women who dont have a issue with thier husbands dressing yet its more than ... just ... the dressing if it was only that then its about clothes not all the rest of what takes place, that then becomes the issue,

its the forms the hair =wigs makeup shoes, the voice & then the look. then takeing on the manisims like its a act impersinating us & trying to be us. .

We are wired differently we think differently & really .... WE ... just are different.

I still find it hard to understand men i dont relate to men never did & never will & when they dressup i think how strange now whats really going on

So could i live with a partner who is a dresser. the whole way of what we mean by a dresser, i would be struggleing i can tell you . when your in a close relasionship . i need to see the real person not an actor not some one who is trying to be someone who they are not.

as you know im a SCA, Renaissance member our men dress in dress's skirts & lovely gowns lovely colours & yes they look so nice , you know its just so lovely . these men are all out men stronger & bigger than i , yet there is no intent to be us or like us , its not an issue .we have over 70-80 men i know them all we are together for a week once a year with our women & some children its a neat time. so there is a difference in the clothes they are just being them selfs.

& when we come on our forums it all changes, our island people do dress in lovely colours & skirts .male's.yet they are not trying to be other than who they are they are normal men.

Of cause you may ask what am i in all of this , one of the funny things is i never dressed as we are talking about . though our men do wear Kilts thats not the same as the dresser's would say.

I have a close friend over in Austraila who i talk with a lot & yes spent time with & his Mum & she still calls him by his birth name .

& has dressed for quite a while & told me he was going for tranistion. so the name has changed to fem. So as a friend ill accept with out a problem . its the liveing with that i would find very hard, & that is as a normal woman .

...noeleena...

[Shadeauxmarie]

What does DADT mean anyway. I've never heard it before
Don't ask, don't tell.

I am ecstatic to have moved from total secrecy to DADT with the permission of my wife after she joined me in therapy. She thought therapy would cure me. Now, we're focusing on us.

[ReineD]

On the extremely rare instance where the wife can actually embrace our silly hobby then the marriage has a chance. Otherwise it is just an exercise in toleration.

"Embracing" is not necessary for the marriage to be a success. Many people are married who do not embrace one or more things about their spouses, in fact this likely describes most marriages. Successful marriages are based on genuine and heart-felt compromises. A more valuable attitude to have, is acknowledgement of a spouse's inherent need, and an ability to respect the spouse's needs and give them room to express those needs, even if it takes awhile to fully understand them. And this goes both ways. A CDer needs to respect where his wife is at with all of this too.

I don't know your personal circumstances, but if you were married and expected that your wife should have embraced the CDing in order for your marriage to be happy, then I can understand the reasons for a divorce.

Obviously, if the husband experiences a complete gender change (a wish to live full time or near full time) and the wife cannot change her heterosexual romantic/physical attraction, then it is a different story. There cannot be a compromise if the husband is a woman and the wife wants to be married to a man. But it doesn't sound as if this is DM's situation.

[kristinacd55]

Hi Door Mat....and welcome to the forum...what an entrance you made! It's refreshing to hear a GG's point of view even when it's a painful observation. The great thing is that it gets the conversation going which is what my wife and I are finally going to be doing in therapy to try and save our marriage. She's been out with me dressed 4 times now, but has major problems with it (especially in the bedroom) but hasn't been able to share it up until now. The main thing is to get a dialogue going, because in the past the only thing she would say was "I have issues with the crossdressing" without being specific in nature.

Thanks again for the post, and for the moderators to split this off too.

[Shari]

Hi Doormat and thank you so very much for your post.
My wife and I are in the same situation as you and your H are. The only difference is that I've accepted the fact that my wife does not want to see me dressed or participate in any girly activities with the "man" that she married.
Another difference is that my wife didn't say I looked silly, she said it creeps her out. You've provided me confirmation that she doesn't love me any less, she just doesn't want a girlfriend who sleeps with her.
Simple, huh? And I get it.

What we all want here, are those women who will accept and will embrace and will go to bed with us dressed. So many threads abound on this site with the bliss of an accepting partner. We sometimes get caught up in the fantasy and selfishly expect our wives to embrace our hobby. Most times the wanting of acceptance overshadows the reality of the situation.

A majority of us must step back and try to remember that our wives have likes and needs and feelings too.

[Leslie Langford]

DoorMat, since my original post on DADT triggered your emotional response to this touchy subject, I feel compelled to address a few additional comments to you personally in order to clarify further how I stand on this, and how your situation differs from mine. And yes, I hate that name you call yourself as well - it denotes victim-hood, and you are better than that.

First of all, IMHO, you are not in a DADT relationship - at least not in the way that I would define it. Yes, your husband is a crossdresser and wants to be free to explore this side of himself, but he is going way beyond DADT. He doesn't just want you to acknowledge and accept him as he is and be free to pursue his "hobby" without interference - he wants you to actively participate in it, and this goes against every fundamental instinct that drives you.

He wants you to be - as sex columnist Dan Savage defines it - GGG, or "good, giving, and game," which, as Dan sees it, "is what we should all strive to be for our sex partners. Think 'good in bed,' 'giving equal time and equal pleasure,' and 'game for anything—within reason." Fair enough in principle, but it also implies that the partner is willing to embrace and indulge his/her spouse's or SO's own particular quirks and fetishes (assuming that these exist) without judgement because - wait for it...they actually love them and are committed to making them happy, even if that requires some compromise. Does your husband do this for you?

DoorMat, you have expressed a revulsion to your husband's desire to present as a woman for reasons that are well known to those of us who have non-accepting wives or SO's, and we can't fault you for that. You are a product (victim?) of your upbringing and socialization, and not everyone is an artistic, unconventional, non-judgemental free spirit who actually embraces and can have fun with the type of "uniqueness" that we crossdressers represent.

Like you, my wife feels that she married a "man", does not want to meet "Leslie", see a picture of "her", or even see "her" clothes or any other tangible evidence of "her" existence. And again, like you, she feels that if she ever saw her husband in full "Leslie" mode, it would indelibly sear so powerful and highly negative an image of him in her brain that it would haunt her forever and irreparably damage the relationship. The other part to this is that she also vehemently asserts that she is not a lesbian, and therefore cannot be expected to embrace a relationship that would appear to push her in that direction.

I accept that, DoorMat, just as you have every right to feel the way you do about this whole crossdressing thing insofar as it involves your husband. And quite rightly, you did not sign up for this, nor did my wife, or the wives of many others here. But then again, I didn't choose to be transgendered; transgenderism chose me.

Guilty as charged when it is said that I should have informed my wife about this before we got married so that she could have made an informed choice as to whether or not to flee or stay in the relationship. And yes, if I had to do it over again, I would definitely have told her about this side of me. My only defense here is that I was still very young when we were married (23 years old), I was not yet a fully formed adult, and at that time, didn't know myself as well as I do now. There was precious little information about crossdressing out there back then (1970's), it certainly wasn't something that you could talk to anyone about, and I truly believed that this was simply a phase and that marriage and a regular sex life would "cure" me. Clearly I was wrong. I suspect that the same is true of your husband, as it is for many others here.

But in all fairness, my wife has to share some of the blame for this in terms of being an "enabler" and staying in the relationship despite her avowed aversion to my crossdressing. After all, she had many opportunities to leave me over the years had all this been too much for her, and she even chose to have a second child with me well after she had found out about my crossdressing, thereby further cementing the relationship. The reason she continues to give to this day for staying with me is that despite it all, she loves me deeply, can't imagine a life without me, and is willing to put up with this quirk (within reason) because the "good" in our marriage far outweighs the "bad".

But here's where we differ, DoorMat - unlike your husband, I have no desire to force my crossdressing down my wife's throat. Not only would I feel equally awkward presenting as "Leslie" in front of her after all these years given her very negative stance against this - how much "fun" would it really be to have her participate in this activity under these conditions, especially if it is done under duress and with clenched teeth?

So, no - I have no problem whatsoever with DADT according to this reality. But where I do see a disconnect is when we have allegedly agreed to a "live and let" live" type of arrangement and I try to follow the "rules", and then female emotions that trump logic and prior agreement occasionally rear their ugly head and I am subjected to the kind of negativity that I described in my prior posts.

I try to be understanding and "suck it up" on those occasions, but sometimes the rants and inconsistency just get to be too much, and I simply say "screw it" and do what I have to do for the sake of my own mental health. And sometimes, that means doing something that my wife disapproves of, including my increasingly frequent excursions out in public as "Leslie" of late. But despite all that, I still respect the basic DADT "rules" that we have established and only do it when she is not around.

But what I am no longer prepared to do is to sugar-coat it or lie about my crossdressing in general to "spare" her feelings. And if there is one thing that I have leaned from my participation on this forum, it is that for most women - when they finally do discover that their husband or SO is a crossdresser - it is not so much the fact that he does this, it is the previous absence of honesty surrounding it that causes the problems. The associated lack of trust issues that then permeate all other aspects of the relationship as part of that fall-out often start to grow like a cancer as a result.

So to that end, I've finally decided to "grow a pair", be totally forthright about what I do, and let the chips fall where they may. It is the lesser of the two evils, even if there is a certain degree of risk associated with such openness. And the funny thing is, I have no doubt that on some level my wife appreciates this, but her pride and stubbornness preclude her from ever admitting it.

DoorMat, I feel your pain, and can offer no assistance except to clarify further on how I stand on this whole issue as I have done, and where it differs substantially from yours. Perhaps outside counselling by an impartial third party would be beneficial here as others have suggested. My wife and I have tried it as well and have found it to be useful, but don't expect miracles. At the end of the day, it all comes down to how flexible a couple can be in modifying entrenched behaviors and accepting the others' POV and needs.

Clearly, my wife and I are still working though our issues as well after 35+ years of marriage, and sometimes it just comes down to agreeing to disagree. But even this is not always as simple as it seems - hence my venting here in my previous posts and seeking advice and support.

But I will say this - this forum has been a God-send to me in terms of better understanding myself and finally coming to terms with who and what I am - and actually embracing this side of me for the way it makes me a much more balanced and complete individual. It has done more for me in that respect than much of the counselling and therapy that I had pursued prior to that. And the reason is very simple - THE PEOPLE HERE HAVE ACTUALLY LIVED THE EXPERIENCE, AND THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

You have done well to come to this forum to seek help and support, and like others here, I strongly urge you to join the F.A.B. section to be in the company of GG peers who can better help you sort through your issues. Now as for that name change that is so sorely needed...;)

[Lynn Marie]

"Embracing" is not necessary for the marriage to be a success. Many people are married who do not embrace one or more things about their spouses, in fact this likely describes most marriages. Successful marriages are based on genuine and heart-felt compromises. A more valuable attitude to have, is acknowledgement of a spouse's inherent need, and an ability to respect the spouse's needs and give them room to express those needs, even if it takes awhile to fully understand them. And this goes both ways. A CDer needs to respect where his wife is at with all of this too.

I don't know your personal circumstances, but if you were married and expected that your wife should have embraced the CDing in order for your marriage to be happy, then I can understand the reasons for a divorce.

Obviously, if the husband experiences a complete gender change (a wish to live full time or near full time) and the wife cannot change her heterosexual romantic/physical attraction, then it is a different story. There cannot be a compromise if the husband is a woman and the wife wants to be married to a man. But it doesn't sound as if this is DM's situation.

Somethings we can compromise on and somethings are just not negotiable. Come on out of the fog and see reality. Anything that you can't talk about with your closest confidant and partner in life is a wall between you. It's not a compromise, it's a wall just like any other wall. It's purpose is to separate us. Doormat feels that separation acutely. Don't ask her to learn to live with it as you have.

You're right, most marriages are compromises. Exercises in toleration. People living together for the sake of the kids, finances, religion, etc. So often they don't even actually like one another! It's just a marriage of convenience. I see them all the time. It's sad.

[Annaliese2010]

"...and if we don't like what we saw (which is usually the case)..."

"Usually the case"? Hmm...to me your words imply that in some cases you might like what you see. Is it possible if your H's female looks were different, as in perhaps being more convincingly pretty, overwhelmingly sexy, alluring or whatever it is you find appealing in some GG girls you see or know, that you'd have no problem 'cause you'd then be girl-on-girl attracted to what you saw?

Since this apparently isn't the case, you like him but not her.

Ok, I get that. Fair enough ;)

[ReineD]

Somethings we can compromise on and somethings are just not negotiable. Come on out of the fog and see reality.

Um, isn't that what I said? Have a look at the last paragraph in my post that you quoted. Obviously, if a husband expects full and unconditional support, approximating glee, and the wife is having a difficult time with her husband's feminine expression, then it won't work. If the husband is TS (even if he doesn't acknowledge this), or is in a deep Pink Fog, then it won't work.


Doormat feels that separation acutely. Don't ask her to learn to live with it as you have.

I'm not. See the last paragraph in my post #20. My point, rather, is for a wife to recognize who her husband is, try to understand where it is coming from, dispel what she thinks it might be based on being raised in a world that knows nothing other than the m/f gender binary, so that she can put it in perspective. She doesn't have to "embrace" it as you suggested earlier in order for their marriage to be happy. But she can learn more about it so it doesn't freak her out as much. The benefit to trying to understand this is for the wife's own peace of mind more than her husband's. They can still negotiate boundaries and if she still does not want to be involved after she has taken the time to see past the fetish aspect of this (providing her husband's motive is not sexual fetish), that's up to her. But at least she won't drive herself crazy if she knows that her husband is dressing while she's out visiting her mother.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

[Kaz]

I really want to contribute to this even if I am just agreeing with other posts. I don't have a problem with that as it gives Doormat (DM) a rounded view of opinion here. I also want to thank DM for posting and starting a tremendously helpful discussion.

I think Reine is right on the ball as usual with where my head is. I used to closet dress (ie she didn't know) for years... I was worried it would freak my wife out and I always thought it would go away - as we all know and as I have done since I joined here, it doesn't. I decided not to tell but took it more seriously. Yeah, she found out but has never seen me fully cross-dressed - just found things when I'd been careless. We have had a few sparky moments that indicate her feelings about this are far from good (though she accepts it is okay for other guys to do this)... but we are now in a classic DADT relationship. She knows that I do, but doesn't want anything to do with it. She doesn't want to see anything or hear anything about it... BUT... she gives me a lot of time and space.

We have three grown up daughters by the way... we could separate (except dealing with the house and money gets complicated), but the reality is that we have had a solid relationship over the years and we value and love each other, in the way that mature loving couples of our age tend to. She is my best friend and my wife and we have shared a lot together. So I am happy with the way things are really... OK I would like to get away for a few days every now and again and get to 'transform' fully - used to be easier than it is now - but I have NO DESIRE to involve her at all!

She wants me to be the guy she has known all these years, the guy she married. OK, I still am, but she cannot accept this other side of me as part of her life - though she does accept that it is a part of my life and an important one. So here we are. The big point is that I respect her views and will totally support them. And I think this is where DM needs to move her H to. He really needs to be appreciative of who she is and her needs and feelings...

[kimdl93]

I don't know if frustrated is the word...I think saddened or disappointed might describe how I would feel if my wife couldn't accept me in my entirety. I know that it's a strongly held emotion, value or belief we are talking about...but values and beliefs, reactions and emotions can change. All to often, with all due respect to those in DADT relationships, accepting and dealing with reality seems to less important than preserving cherished, but erroneous beliefs.

[Erica2Sweet]

[B]...I don't like my H's dressing because, despite what he sees when looking in a mirror, I see my H in a dress and he looks sort of silly. Doesn't matter how well he's dressed or how good his makeup, he's still just my H looking silly. No offense to anyone here as this is not a comment about all of you, just my personal feelings...

I think it would be wrong for anyone to deny you your feelings on this or any other matter.


...I understand it's an urge, a need, but from a GG perspective, it's a very strange one! So is this really how he wants me to see him? As silly and strange?...

Of course he does not what you to see him as silly or strange. You may have accepted that as your reality, but it doesn't have to be that way. It's all really up to you how you view him both today and in the future.

My suspicion is that he's looking for kindness and acceptance from you, and some sense of normalcy with regard to his gender issues. The common scenario is that he's likely grown weary of hiding a part of himself and wishes for you to see ALL of him for the first time.

For any relatively healthy adult, isolation over time is emotionally self-destructive, but worse yet, an SO's rejection can be devastating. Just about any male who experiences gender-identity issues over a long period of time can tell you about all of the negative feelings associated with it. Perhaps your H is feeling some of these negative emotions and is reaching out to you in order to close some of what he perceives as emotional distance between you and he, that his secretive crossdressing probably caused, to basically feel better about himself, and maybe even to feel better about how he feels you perceive him as a life partner.

My wife and I often talk about the enormous burden that gender identity issues can become when we as individuals try to navigate them in isolation. I can only image how awful it must feel to not be able to confide and share this with the one who is supposed to be our closest ally. Granted, sometimes, we do it to ourselves by not being honest about who we are from the start.


...Surely it's better then, that I don't, and that he indulges this need without completely destroying how I see him as a man...

If he was incapacitated, bedridden, or confined to a wheelchair due to an accident, would that also destroy how you see him as a man? In any of these examples, the way in which he appears to you visually would suddenly be completely different, and no longer in line with what we normally think of when we think of a healthy man. With this in mind, where is the dividing line between what you could accept and what you could not with regard to the image you have of him as a man and husband? Further, which is more important: your "image" of him or his feeling of being loved and accepted by you?

In comparing your life before the moment you knew about your H's crossdressing, to immediately after you found out, nothing changed about your H except the knowledge you gained in that find. He's still the same person you married, its just that now you know about the secret side.

In these instances, being perpetually angry is easy. What's hard is getting past the anger and looking at what is truly important.


...I'm better off leaving and letting him spend all day out with other GG's who apparently make him feel good. Funny that, given THEY don't have to live with it. Believe me, were they living with this, they might see this as something other than a quaint quirk. And maybe, just maybe, these other GG's are just being polite. I know I would be amused and even curious if I had a CD client. But marrying him? I don't think so!

My wife knew about ALL facets of me before we were married. She's supportive and encouraging, and also honest when I need a dose of real honesty. While I don't deny you your right to be angry and hurt by your find, it's not accurate or fair to claim sisterhood and lump all women together in terms of who they would and would not marry. Further, my wife is not being polite or humoring me with regard to my gender flux, and the same can be said for a good number of the other folks here.

This whole situation is an excellent example of why it is so important to be completely honest with one another when those of us with gender-identity issues enter into relationships. The trust that is diminished when these secrets are discovered within a marriage often times can never be restored fully.

[Asche]

And I think this is where DM needs to move her H to. He really needs to be appreciative of who she is and her needs and feelings...
DM cannot move H. He has to move himself.

By the same token, neither H nor anybody at CD.com can make DM change her feelings/views.

If either one of them feels that they cannot continue in the relationship without the other changing, the relationship is not long for this world. But if they can make a truce on this issue -- something that both can live with, if not like -- and will hold to it like grown-ups, there may be a possibility of time working some sort of magic.

The advantage of true DADT is that it gives both people time -- relief from pressure -- to change on their own.

[Amy A]

I am in a log term relationship with a girl who doesn't know about my dressing. I'd love to tell her, but I'm scared of two things:

1. Rejection
2. Acceptance, but at the cost of a load more baggage being piled onto my girlfriend, who has to put up with so much from her family. I don't want to be another thing in her life that brings her down, the guilt would be unbearable.

DM, it's really interesting reading your thoughts, and although it depresses me greatly, it's good to get that grounding in reality that we all need sometimes. I think your husband is pushing you too far, and needs to back down. You didn't sign up for this and it's not fair of him to push it upon you. I feel awful hiding such a secret from my SO but after reading this I wonder if given the choice she'd rather not know.

Anyway I hope you find a way forward that works for you, whatever that may be, and you can move on to being fluffybathmat.

[ReineD]

I think saddened or disappointed might describe how I would feel if my wife couldn't accept me in my entirety.

That's a great point, Kim, and I think it's important to point out for novices like DM, that your words, "in my entirety", varies greatly among individuals. You among several others here, experience the need to present in a feminine manner a bulk of the time, although you can muster a male appearance when necessary. Other members here cannot muster any male appearance at all, namely the transitioned/transitioning TSs. And still others feel a duality in their gender identity to varying degrees and their need to express femininity is not as constant as the first two. And last, there are members here who feel no feminine gender identity at all.

In other words, there is a spectrum.

A wife who has difficulty with all of this will have a greater chance coming to terms with (and note I am not saying "embracing" :p) a husband who genuinely does have a strong male component to his gender identity, than a husband who doesn't. And such a husband will find it easier to cope with a wife who has difficulty with the CDing, more than a husband whose male gender identity is very weak or non existent. So the two may be rather closer than they think.

I would very much like to hear from DM's husband at this point to find out where he sits along the spectrum since it is difficult to help DM without knowing this.

[Kaz]

DM cannot move H. He has to move himself.

By the same token, neither H nor anybody at CD.com can make DM change her feelings/views.

If either one of them feels that they cannot continue in the relationship without the other changing, the relationship is not long for this world. But if they can make a truce on this issue -- something that both can live with, if not like -- and will hold to it like grown-ups, there may be a possibility of time working some sort of magic.

The advantage of true DADT is that it gives both people time -- relief from pressure -- to change on their own.

Whilst I accept your philosophical perspective, I disagree... we move people by influence and structured arguement... it was ever so... My perspectives have changed through discussions on this forum... but I accept that for change to happen beneficially we have to be open to influence and persuasion... that is down to personal choice...

[Wildaboutheels]

Fluffy, your feelings are entirely understandable given your last post. Sounds like he is not merely requesting a modification of your agreed upon compromise but is more or less demanding it and trying to run it down your throat. And you obviously did not sign up for it and likely never would have married him had you known.

????????

He HAS managed for X # of years [either through fear or respect] to hide it from his brother and parents and probably doesn't want your kids to know but in the last five years now, is insisting that you change your views. Sounds like a lack of respect to me at least concerning his CDing. He has this crazy idea that many have. That Love conquers all. In Fairy Tales maybe.

You COULD stop him from dressing at home [when and if you are around] if it bothers you that much. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. [if he refuses to listen]

Might I ask a question of you? What IF he decided to come out to his parents and brother and maybe even kids without your knowledge? And what IF they all accepted him. Might it change your opinion any? Of maybe how much it means to him? I doubt it but who knows. We all like what we like and don't need a specific reason for our feelings.

For what it's worth, I don't think a counselor would help you any. I have a good friend who IS a counselor and she has told me on more than one occasion, that by the time most people come to counseling, too much water has gone under the bridge.

If it's any consolation, I think you have been more than fair with him by your account of things.

You do give all indication that you still think he is a good father and husband and still Love him.

[Stephanie47]

DoorMat; If I treated my wife as your husband is treating you, I would expect her to bail. There is absolutely no obligation for you to participate in any manner with his cross dressing. Your relationship is no a DADT relationship. It is a relationship of emotional abuse. One cannot equate participation with cross dressing in the same light as watching sports. My wife does not want anything to do with my cross dressing. When we were young and naive we did not know what cross dressing is. There was bedroom play, but, it was not interpreted as cross dressing. When we BOTH realized what my interest was, my wife's slant on my wearing negligees changed. This was more than Halloween. This was more than fooling around. This was a game changer for her, and, for ME. We had that heart to heart ELEVATED discussion and crying.

I could not figure out why I did this, so how could I explain it to her. I spent years hoping she would participate. But, she didn't and won't. I had to self examine my motives and why it was necessary to pressure her. I wanted her to fully accept every aspect of my personalities. But, was it necessary? I decided upon self reflection, not why I did it, but, what did my cross dressing bring me. What it brought me was a sense of peace and tranquility about issues that were not of her making. They are my issues.

You are young and have a career. If hubby has violated your inner most core principles and expectations of marriage, trying to change him, and, he change you, will not work or happen. It's time for a reality check.

Heck, you stated, if you knew he was a cross dresser you (and the vast majority of women) would not marry the guy. Heck, I would never marry a smoker.

[Amanda22]

If DM and her H can't agree on, and live by boundaries as far as CDing is concerned, then split! I'm not trying to be mean. "Accepting someone in their entirety," as Kim said so well, is a foundation for a great relationship. I can't imagine living with, much less marrying a person who accepted me only partially, or whom I accepted only partially. That sounds like hell.

[TVAmanda]

Hi DoorMat... your H is being a selfish insensitive pig. You are right to feel angry and resentful over this. You didn't sign up for this when you got married did you? I'm continually amazed at the entitled attitude that a lot of the girls display here but really, if you get married without telling your SO about your crossdresing, you're not entitled to anything, except divorce. A lot of girls expect you to understand and accept their crossdressing, but don't put in a similar effort in understanding and accepting YOUR feelings. There is a huge difference between acceptance of crossdressing and participation in it, I can't believe people are stupid enough to link them together. Your H needs to get that through his thick skull, be thankful that he has DADT, and not push his luck anymore.

And newsflash to crossdressers: heterosexual woman are not interested in you! If you want a GG to dress up with find a bisexual one and make sure you tell her BEFORE you start the relationship. It's just good manners really.

[Moxie]

Thank you everyone for your responses! I am actually quite surprised by most of them, given much of the topics I have read on this forum during my many months of lurking. I expected everyone to be on my H's side while encouraging me to fully accept his dressing or give up.

Of course, some here do feel a wife should fully accept and I do understand this if the husband involved is a fulltime crossdresser etc. I probably should have placed more information with my initial rant (sorry about the anger but this has become a very touchy subject lately) and explained that my H has actually been dressing for most of his life, but not very often and even now that we are in the middle of this 'war' he still says he only needs to dress once a week, sometimes only once a month. I don't have a problem with how often as I don't see this changing as my H is actually very masculine and from the conversations we have had, he doesn't see himself as having much of feminine side. He just likes to present feminine on occasion, if this makes sense?

I'll be honest, it doesn't really to me! lol

Anyway, it's helped a lot to have my feelings validated that he's pushing me too hard. I think so, too. Funny, but when I first found out five years ago, he didn't. In fact, he sort of brushed it under the carpet and I didn't hear much more about it. This was true DADT, I guess, and selfishly I liked this stage or our 14 year marriage! But then, for whatever reason that even he can't explain, he decided a few months ago that this wasn't working for him anymore and that he wants to bring this out into our relationship and have me know what he's up to etc. Sort of like a midlife CD crisis!

I've pondered everyone's thoughts posted here and have realized that he's probably decided he does need more acceptance from me. But why now? I am not sure. We have had external family issues to contend with that have certainly made us both more reflective on our lives. Would it be fair to say that CD is a part of the person? It's very hard as a GG to understand how dressing as the opposite gender can be a 'part' of someone, but I'm really trying. If it is a part of my H, then I can sort of understand why he would need validation of this part. I just wish I wasn't to repelled by the whole thing. Someone here was very correct when they mentioned socialization and upbringing. At no point was I taught of crossdressing or even knew men did such a thing! Men are men and women and women and everything else is seen on stage. lol

He really is a good husband otherwise and on an intellectual level I know he didn't choose this path. But neither did I, and often times I think of all the other paths I would rather walk down and all the other things I'd rather think about/do with my H. I understand this is something he MUST do, but it's infinitely sad to me that we are at such odds with the things we like to do together. Crossdressing is definitely an enigma.

I also thought I would mention the family dynamic - I don't feel it would help me to have them know as I doubt they would understand. I think they would only make both of us feel worse and the parents are just too old to gain any benefit from this knowledge. However, I have confided in a close friend and she has been a huge source of non-judgmental support and has never once suggested I leave my H. But she knows him quite well too, and can see the man he is otherwise. She's also seen it all and can list quite a few worse things he could be doing!

But back to the DADT and my H pushing CD on me, I have decided to sit him down and have a straight conversation with him as this can't carry on. Talking here has made me realize that he probably isn't doing this to intentionally hurt me and that he likely just wants me to acknowledge this part of him exists. But he also needs to BACK OFF and let me deal in my time. This is going way too fast.

I won't be quite so abrupt, of course.:)

I do have one question: given what I have read here and how addictive CD seems to be for many men, will any further tolerance on my part cause my H to escalate his dressing? I don't think I could handle that, but it's a big fear. I also don't want to be seen as a control freak who refuses to learn or understand because of a fear of escalation, but I really do worry that he might fall further into this 'pink fog' you all talk of.

And in response to the question about whether my H looking really good as a woman would have made me feel better and even possibly turned me on? Hell no! lol. I'm sexually and emotionally attracted to all things masculine - the smell, the look, the texture of a man. I think you have all been surprisingly kind and accepting and understanding of this rather angry wife, and from your profiles I can see many of you make very beautiful women, but I want you all to know that your male sides are very much appreciated too. I feel sad when I read of the dislike of masculinity and how male clothes are 'drab' etc. Men are also beautiful, and I wanted you all to know that. :)

[Thera Home]

Hello Door Mat

You and my wife should meet, she just aquired a black stallion and will be setting out on the persecution of those crossdressing infidels.:heehee:

Thera

P.S. Im first on her hitlist

[Moxie]

You didn't sign up for this when you got married did you?

And newsflash to crossdressers: heterosexual woman are not interested in you! If you want a GG to dress up with find a bisexual one and make sure you tell her BEFORE you start the relationship. It's just good manners really.

No, I didn't' sign up for this as I didn't know for the first 9 years! And I have told my H this exact thing - that he should have married a bisexual girl during one of our more volatile conversations and honestly, I think he honestly believes all women ARE bisexual. It's just so hard for him to comprehend that someone might not like femininty. It's conversations like this that have driven me here. I now see this is inappropriate and uncommon behavior for most CD men and I will be letting him know this!

[STACY B]

LOL,,,,,, He's screwed ,,,; LOL,,,, He ,,Your H Better quit while he's ahead cuz I tell ya what sissta seems to me an this is just me talking here ,,,That you dont want NOTHING to do with an will never want nothing to do with it ! Hey thats OK,,, Cuz I tell ya I dont like sports ,,An won't ever ,,, No matter what ,,So I know where ya coming from when ya say you dont understand it ,,,, It ,,, meaning the dressing ,,, I won't ever understand any kind of sports ,,, I know why they play ,,I know what it is ,,But I just don't like it an will never like it . So Homeboy betta go back in Da Closet B-Fo he be livin by his self ,,,LOL,,,,, ROCK ON ,,, An dont back off !! Cuz he has the right to be happy ,,,An so do you !!

[Asche]

Of course, some here do feel a wife should fully accept and I do understand this if the husband involved is a fulltime crossdresser etc.
I think there are different levels of acceptance.

I think if you are going to remain in this relationship, you have to accept that he is a CD and is going to remain so, in much the same sense that if you live in Maine (USA), you are going to have to accept that it's going to snow in the winter. You don't have to like it, but you'll have to make your peace with how things are.

On the other hand, you don't have to enjoy it or participate in it. To continue the snow metaphor, you don't have to want to roll in the snow and have snowball fights, and if you don't like snow, your H should make peace with the fact that you're likely to spend every winter inside, next to a radiator, grumbling until spring.


It's just so hard for him to comprehend that someone might not like femininity. It's conversations like this that have driven me here.
It sounds like he needs to work on learning to accept you as you are, and not just as an extension of his own needs; in particular, he needs to accept how you feel about CDing, even though it's not the way he feels about it.

BTW, this is a depressingly common problem among CDers. You may have noticed that posts crop up rather regularly by CDers asking why "Women" don't seem to enjoy high heels, pantyhose, make-up, and all the other parts of performing femininity as much as they do. And other CDers have to remind them: "hey, not everybody is you."

[Erica2Sweet]

...And newsflash to crossdressers: heterosexual woman are not interested in you! If you want a GG to dress up with find a bisexual one and make sure you tell her BEFORE you start the relationship. It's just good manners really.

Are you implying that a woman has to be potentially sexually compatible with someone who exhibits gender identity issues in order to have any sort of mutual connection (intellectual or otherwise)?

If so, I can tell you from experience, this is completely false. What you don't seem to be acknowledging is the fact that, for someone with gender identity issues, there's more to connecting with other people than just playing dress-up.

[Stephanie47]

Doormat, at #44 you indicate there was an uptick in his need to include you in his cross dressing. If there has been in the past a DADT marriage, and, he is now forcing the issue of your non participation, I suspect there is something else going on. What is the catalyst for his actions? The issue may not be cross dressing. Is there stress at work? Is raising the ante an excuse for you to dump him? As you've probably read many times on this site, many times marriages are terminated because of reasons other than cross dressing. Cross dressing just becomes a convenient excuse. Cross dressing may the lesser reason of many. Kind of a no fault divorce. "I dumped him because he is a cross dresser." "She dumped me because I'm a cross dresser."

Some of us, like I, have found cross dressing is a stress reliever for issues that arose prior to marriage and have nothing to do with masculinity and femininity. Additional stresses compound other stresses. I would seek out what stresses your husband is encountering. If there are other stresses he needs to deal with them.

[Meghan]

I am a bit hesitant to get involved. This is a very, very tough situation and I have strong feelings on both sides.

DoorMat, judging by your choice of a forum name and the information you've relayed, it appears you believe your H's obsession with dressing is more important than you are, and he is putting your needs behind H's own agenda.

It's a struggle. It's possible that H believes now this is out in the open, it's OK to push it and take every opportunity to dress. But it sounds like there were communication and prioritization issues before this ever came out. I don't know, but it's possible that this is coming out because H feels he has nothing left to lose by going for it, so to speak, and that you're pretty set that this isn't what you expect or want from a partner.

My wife and I play in some very open and vulnerable places mentally, and it still took me five years of a completely open environment before I could really come out to her. It scared her for a while. but she made it safe for me to come out.

I make it OK for her to express her worst and best sides, with complete security that I won't ever go for the things that she's shared with me, both good and bad. In exchange she does the same for me.

I challenged that trust when I held this back. I had talked myself into thinking it wasn't real so I misled her as well as myself. At some point, I had to bring it out, I couldn't talk myself out of it any more and it was affecting our communication.

Once it was out, though, I went at her pace even when it was almost impossible to control myself and not just run for the panty drawer!

I can understand how I might have behaved if trust wasn't involved. I can see how it could have quickly spiraled out of control and degenerated into something awful if trust wasn't a foundation of our relationship.

Was your trust gone for you long before you found out? Is there a chance you could repair the breach or has the levee broken forever?

Our relationship is far from perfect, but we both had the advantages of a failed first marriage where trust was lost (or never gained). We were honest about who we were, or at least as much as we could be, when we wrote to each other well before we ever met.

The problem is, no one knows 100% about themselves. We all make mistakes and make incorrect estimates based on our own flawed assessment of ourselves. I guess the question is: is there room for someone to update their "resume" as they learn, or did they lie on their resume to get the job (and did they do so knowingly or out of ignorance)?

I don't think any of this is advice at all...just a few thoughts about trust and relationships. I hope something here helps either one of you get through this tough time. If you love each other, and if you truly want to repair what you've broken, then you have to start with trust and you have to keep your commitment to yourselves and each other no matter how hard it gets. I don't think any relationship can work long-term without it.

Meghan

[Erica2Sweet]

DM cannot move H. He has to move himself.

By the same token, neither H nor anybody at CD.com can make DM change her feelings/views.

If either one of them feels that they cannot continue in the relationship without the other changing, the relationship is not long for this world. But if they can make a truce on this issue -- something that both can live with, if not like -- and will hold to it like grown-ups, there may be a possibility of time working some sort of magic...

Beautifully worded wisdom. I love this. :)

[Sometimes Steffi]

DM

I want to thank you very much for being brave enough and honest enough with your post. And the little bit of anger mixed in made it very believable.


Hi Doormat and thank you so very much for your post.
My wife and I are in the same situation as you and your H are. The only difference is that I've accepted the fact that my wife does not want to see me dressed or participate in any girly activities with the "man" that she married.
Another difference is that my wife didn't say I looked silly, she said it creeps her out. You've provided me confirmation that she doesn't love me any less, she just doesn't want a girlfriend who sleeps with her.
Simple, huh? And I get it.

What we all want here, are those women who will accept and will embrace and will go to bed with us dressed. So many threads abound on this site with the bliss of an accepting partner. We sometimes get caught up in the fantasy and selfishly expect our wives to embrace our hobby. Most times the wanting of acceptance overshadows the reality of the situation.

A majority of us must step back and try to remember that our wives have likes and needs and feelings too.

I think this is about where my wife is. She is very uncomfortable with it. At one time I had the hope that she would accept or maybe even embrace my crossdressing. But, in talking to my therapist about it, I realized that I can not control her. Now my goal is for her to tolerate it within some reasonable boundaries.

She has said many times that she doesn't want to see me dressed. She could never get that picture out of her head. She also told me she doesn't ever want to go out as "girlfriends". Some of us (OK, maybe me) are entranced and encouraged by those CDs who have wives or SOs who not only embrace, but encourage their husband's CDing. And believe it or not, I know several CDs (or maybe they're TSs) who are on hormones and still married. I even know one who has fully transitioned. So, maybe their wive's are really special, but we can dream can't we. I guess not.

One last thing. I finally get it. You saved one other wife from going through what you are going through. I just hope she will tolerate me enough to allow me to go out every once in a while.

[Asche]

(Warning: Tangent ahead!)


Whilst I accept your philosophical perspective, I disagree... we move people by influence and structured arguement.
If by "structured argument" you mean rational argumentation, I would respectfully disagree. I've never seen anyone convinced simply by rational argument. The most you can do is to offer people arguments with which they can convince themselves.

And there's a good reason: in real life, most disagreements aren't due to logical errors, they're due to conflicts of interest, values, needs, desires, attitudes, tastes, etc. Resolving them requires re-evaluating priorities, making compromises, changing one's own attitude, etc. And this usually only happens if the people involved feel safe (=not threatened) enough to consider giving things (such as old attitudes) up. Argumentation usually makes people defensive and less likely to reconsider their position.

What I see going on in this forum (to the extent that what goes on is positive) is people being exposed to different ways people live and see the world. If they're receptive, they can learn and maybe change themselves. That may be "influence", but it's not argumentation.

[TVAmanda]

Are you implying that a woman has to be potentially sexually compatible with someone who exhibits gender identity issues in order to have any sort of mutual connection (intellectual or otherwise)?

If so, I can tell you from experience, this is completely false. What you don't seem to be acknowledging is the fact that, for someone with gender identity issues, there's more to connecting with other people than just playing dress-up.

Erica2Sweet we are not talking about a mutual connection (intellectual or otherwise) here we are talking about a marriage, which is a sexual institution. You need to read these things with reference and in context to what the original poster said.

[Erica2Sweet]

Erica2Sweet we are not talking about a mutual connection (intellectual or otherwise) here we are talking about a marriage, which is a sexual institution. You need to read these things with reference and in context to what the original poster said.

Please forgive me for not reading your post the way you wanted me to.

[nikki626]

IMO, this is why I probably won't say a word to my future SO about my hobby. I rather keep it a secret rather than have her be involved in my hobby that she wants no part of.

[STACY B]

IMO, this is why I probably won't say a word to my future SO about my hobby. I rather keep it a secret rather than have her be involved in my hobby that she wants no part of.



Smartest thing I herd all day ,,,If ya wife dont like it at all your LIFE will be alot Better off not involving her ,,Cuz you can't change people . If there dead set on hating it your screwed an alot of chix real GGs chix dont want nothing to do with it ,,They like there MEN to be MEN not little girly girls an they want to feel protected an safe an it Scares the hell out of them to see you all Dolled up like a girl an it takes all the life out of there image of what they thought you were .No matter what you say they will never be the same ,,It will take YEARS to get past it ,,If ya think you cant go without doing it ,,,HIDE like hell or Break Camp an get a you know what ,,,You wont be the first one that has done it !!

[Amanda22]

I wish you and your husband the best outcome for you both, whether that is together or separate. I won't be a referee because it doesn't seem fair. When you have your talk, I hope you're both guided by your intuition of what's best for each of you. Good luck!

[ReineD]

... my H has actually been dressing for most of his life, but not very often and even now that we are in the middle of this 'war' he still says he only needs to dress once a week, sometimes only once a month.

...

I've pondered everyone's thoughts posted here and have realized that he's probably decided he does need more acceptance from me. But why now? I am not sure.

Because it takes a while for CDers to give themselves permission to stop repressing it. Men are strongly socialized to reject any part of femininity within themselves. If your husband's need to express femininity was not strong, believe me he would still be happy in a DADT arrangement. It is quite common to take some years for the need to surface ... since it is buried deep while young.



Would it be fair to say that CD is a part of the person? It's very hard as a GG to understand how dressing as the opposite gender can be a 'part' of someone, but I'm really trying.

Yes, it is a part of who he is.




If it is a part of my H, then I can sort of understand why he would need validation of this part. I just wish I wasn't to repelled by the whole thing. Someone here was very correct when they mentioned socialization and upbringing. At no point was I taught of crossdressing or even knew men did such a thing! Men are men and women and women and everything else is seen on stage. lol

Right. You will need to learn to look at gender differently than we've been taught and I agree, it isn't easy. And yes, it is repulsive to many GGs to see their husbands in dresses. But this is because of a lack of exposure to anyone who is gender non-conforming, as you point out. We humans are always more comfortable with the things that we are familiar with.

Your husband is the same person you fell in love with and this will not change. He still wants to be your husband. You may not want to read this just yet, but I've seen it happen time and time again here ... if a wife determines that the CDing is not some "weird" fetish thing that threatens to take her husband's affection away from her, she can learn to actually stop seeing the clothes as "changing" who her husband is, in other words, she will cease to believe that the clothes are turning him into someone he is not.


.
He really is a good husband otherwise and on an intellectual level I know he didn't choose this path. But neither did I, and often times I think of all the other paths I would rather walk down and all the other things I'd rather think about/do with my H. I understand this is something he MUST do, but it's infinitely sad to me that we are at such odds with the things we like to do together. Crossdressing is definitely an enigma.

Yes it is an enigma. I tried to understand my SO's and other member's motives for years, and just when I think I get it, someone will say something that shows me that I don't get it at all. lol. So now I just accept that my SO has a need that I do not understand. As to not wanting this in your life, when you think of it, many of us have things that we do not want in our lives but that we finds ways to cope with when they present themselves, anything from the loss of jobs, to a child born with a disability, to a son being gay, to the house burning down. I hate to compare the CDing with all these things that many people believe to be negative, but I'm just saying that people do cope with the way that their lives unfold.

Another important consideration is for both you and your husband to be on the same page as to who should know about this and who shouldn't. Most of the time, (unless a husband is TS and needs to live full or near full time), CDers are quite happy to not have coworkers/family/friends know. The reality is that much of the world does not understand the CDing, and unless a person is entirely self-sufficient (own business with clients in other towns for example), there is a risk of some loss when people do know.


.
But back to the DADT and my H pushing CD on me, I have decided to sit him down and have a straight conversation with him as this can't carry on. Talking here has made me realize that he probably isn't doing this to intentionally hurt me and that he likely just wants me to acknowledge this part of him exists. But he also needs to BACK OFF and let me deal in my time. This is going way too fast.

The bold is my emphasis.

This is the BEST possible attitude that you can have, and yes he is going way too fast!

OK first let's separate the pink-foggish things you described earlier ... if your husband sincerely is pushing you to "have fun" putting on his makeup or painting his nails, taking pics, having dress up nights as you both giggle into oblivion, he's got to change his attitude. This is not at all realistic when it comes to participation from a reluctant wife and as you pointed out, these are not things that women past their teenage years do.

BUT, if he is asking you to sit with him while he's dressed to talk about the regular things the two of you talk about, in other words, your permission that he can just "be" himself in your presence occasionally (at least for as long as it takes for him to trust that you do not outright reject him), then he will be well served to go about this at YOUR pace, just like you said. If you feel pushed and backed into a corner, this will not help at all.

If he cannot understand your position, I'm afraid there is a risk that the two of you will turn this into a power struggle, a sort of two-sided, push/pull where he is adamant that he is entitled to be who he is, and you are adamant that you are entitled to your feelings against it, with no possibility of open-mindedness and compromise on either part. This sort of scenario is a no-win for each one of you.

The two of you must never lose sight of each other and your respective needs, or the importance of maintaining the health of your relationship, and if you keep THIS in the forefront of your minds, it will make the give and take and the compromises between you all that much easier.

And I'm glad that you actually said "in my time". This means that you are not closing the door on this entirely, and so there is hope that eventually, in your time, your husband will not feel as if he must continue to keep a part of who he is from you.



.
I do have one question: given what I have read here and how addictive CD seems to be for many men, will any further tolerance on my part cause my H to escalate his dressing? I don't think I could handle that, but it's a big fear. I also don't want to be seen as a control freak who refuses to learn or understand because of a fear of escalation, but I really do worry that he might fall further into this 'pink fog' you all talk of.

Yes, there is a likelihood that as your acceptance grows, your husband will want to take it out of your home and go to a TG support group for example. And this will mean making cosmetic changes to his appearance so that he doesn't look like a guy in a dress when he goes out. But keep in mind (although you may not be ready to see this) that by the time he is ready to do this, it may not be a stretch for you either. So my best advice is to take it once step at a time and always be cognizant of one another's head space (without getting into power struggles).

Also, please know that many CDers do have the desire to go out (my SO does) and this does not mean they are turning into women or they want to sleep with men. You might want to read my second paragraph in my post #20, if you are interested in knowing what the CDing looks like with my SO and I. And allow me to emphasize, my SO rarely, RARELY dresses at home any more. He just doesn't need to. He knows that he has no constraints on his freedom and this makes a huge difference.



.
And in response to the question about whether my H looking really good as a woman would have made me feel better and even possibly turned me on? Hell no! lol. I'm sexually and emotionally attracted to all things masculine - the smell, the look, the texture of a man.

The turn-on part, I'm afraid is a rather common CD fantasy. But, it comes from a desire to want this part of themselves to be accepted by their wives. Also, many (most?) CDers believe themselves to be quite unattractive as men.


No, I didn't' sign up for this as I didn't know for the first 9 years! And I have told my H this exact thing - that he should have married a bisexual girl during one of our more volatile conversations and honestly, I think he honestly believes all women ARE bisexual. It's just so hard for him to comprehend that someone might not like femininty. It's conversations like this that have driven me here. I now see this is inappropriate and uncommon behavior for most CD men and I will be letting him know this!

Oh believe me, being bisexual is not a guarantee for acceptance. I have a female friend who is bi. She told me once that she likes her men to be men, and her women to be women. A flexible sexual attraction CAN make a difference when it comes to accepting a CDer in the bedroom, but only IF a person is accepting of non-conforming gender to begin with. The two are actually not related.

And he really does need to stop projecting his love of femininity onto you and everyone else, although judging by some of the threads I've read here, it is rather common to do this. I don't get it either.

[Badtranny]

Geez RD, you are spectacular.

I'm humbled by your awesomeness and amazed by your insightful-ness. (I know it's not a word but I like alliteration!)

[Moxie]

CDers believe themselves to be quite unattractive as men.

I didn't realize this but it sure makes a lot of sense. My H is a very attractive man yet he's actually very humble about this, if not oblivous. It makes sense now, though I find it incredulous that he thinks he's attractive when in female clothing! I guess this is the illusion so many here speak of.

And thanks for answering my other questions. I have much to think about. But really, if I'm honest, the place I'd like to reach would have me not thinking about CD at all! I find the worry and fear the worst part of all this. My annoying female brain never turns off when it latches onto anything vaguely concerning - my kids would tell you this! If my H did have a female side to him I imagine he'd worry a lot more about this than he does. Seems I'm doing enough worrying for the both of us.

I am interested in the FAB forum as I imagine I might find some good answers to my situation there too. Though, hearing the CD side has been very important as I don't know how my H really feels as being so close to the situation, it's very hard for either of us to communicate this at the moment. So hearing everyone's views/opinions has been great, even if some of it was difficult to read. The escalation in particular as I do feel this might be too much for me.

And yes, I do think other issues aside from CD have pushed us to this point - the family issues included. So perhaps a counselor might help us address these so I can figure out the CD better.

Meanwhile, I'll look wistfully back on the DADT days when I didn't have to think about this so much. For those H's living DADT, if it's not too stressful for you I do think it's probably best for wives who feel like me. I often wish I didn't know of his CD at all as it really has affected how I see him. And before everyone suggests I'm being close-minded here, the reality is you are all hard-wired to dress as women, while I am hard-wired to want a masculine man. I can't help this no matter how much I understand or learn to accept that he crossdresses. This need in me will never change, and I will be heartbroken if he can't meet these needs for me anymore.

Thanks again. DM

[ReineD]

I didn't realize this but it sure makes a lot of sense. My H is a very attractive man yet he's actually very humble about this, if not oblivous. It makes sense now, though I find it incredulous that he thinks he's attractive when in female clothing! I guess this is the illusion so many here speak of.

Well, I suppose it can be looked at as an illusion in the strictest sense, if we keep in mind that they are genetic, male-bodied men who feel a need to present as women. To the onlooker it does look as if they are creating an illusion. But you need to know that this thing called "gender" is more than just the bodies we are born with. There is a lot of information about this online, but basically gender is comprised of three components:

1) The physical self (primary and secondary sexual characteristics),
2) Gender identity (which gender that the brain more closely aligns with),
3) Gender role & presentation (our preferences, and the ways that we feel comfortable presenting ourselves).

Among cisgenders (people like you and me), there is absolutely no discordance between (1), (2), & (3). Everything matches, and so we don't think of them as separate things. Among transsexuals, (1) is in direct and complete opposition to (2) & (3) and TSs are very unhappy until they can make (1) match (2) & (3). Among CDers, it varies a great deal, but there is definitely a discordance between some of (3) & (1), and there may even be some discordance between some of (2) & (1) as well. But not fully, and not always, so transition would be a huge mistake ... it's all rather complex, difficult to measure and define, and the vast differences between individual CDers are influenced by more variables than I can list. Plus, there can be mild discordance, or stronger discordance, even if it never reaches full discordance as it does in transsexuals.

Anyway is it an illusion when a CDer is true to his need to look like a woman in order to resolve the degree of discordance he experiences (there is a reason that he doesn't believe himself to be attractive as a man)? I guess that's up for debate, but I don't see it that way.



And thanks for answering my other questions. I have much to think about. But really, if I'm honest, the place I'd like to reach would have me not thinking about CD at all! I find the worry and fear the worst part of all this. My annoying female brain never turns off when it latches onto anything vaguely concerning - my kids would tell you this! If my H did have a female side to him I imagine he'd worry a lot more about this than he does. Seems I'm doing enough worrying for the both of us.

I know DM. :hugs: It is much easier to not think about any of this. But, .... this doesn't make it go away.

Not to monopolize you or anything (I promise I'll be quiet after this), but I'll tell you a story. About 3-4 years before I knew my SO, I made friends with a woman whose husband turned out to be a CDer. We belonged to a women's group together, and the first time I saw her husband there (dressed as a woman), was the first time in my life I had seen a CDer. So I was rather like all those "other" accepting GG SAs and nail techs. lol. I didn't judge him, but I did have a mild curiosity. It took a few meetings before my brain constructed a new file folder for a new type of person that I had not encountered before, which was a genetic male who was not a drag queen, who was not gay, yet who needed to present as a woman. But in rather short order, seeing her on a regular basis just became normal for me and I began to think of my friend's husband as the person that I saw shine through from the inside more than by the manner of dress. We did get to know each other over the years as my friendship with the wife developed, and I had ample opportunities to meet the husband in both male and female modes. We were all friends. I also knew their marriage was good, and so the notions I had previously held about CDers were dispelled.

So I did have rather a leg up on the CDing by the time I met my SO. Still when he told me, my first (silent) reaction was "Oh, no! Is he gay?" No matter how accepting I had been towards my friend's husband, and how accustomed I had become to seeing her dressed, he wasn't my husband! And I had just never imagined that I might be in a relationship with a CDer since they are either rather rare, or deeply closeted. And no matter how nice was my friend's husband, I entered the relationship with my SO with a bit of (silent) trepidation, wondering how it would all play out. So you see, you are not alone and despite my exposure to a friend who CDs, my SO and I still had many growing pains with the CDing as she developed a clearer undertanding of what it all meant to her (this is a nice way of saying while she went through her own Pink Fog), and while I redefined my prior understanding of gender and gender roles in a romantic relationship (even though he presents as a guy the bulk of the time), including my own. :p

But I promise you, if you can try to wipe your mind free of what you had previously thought about gender and instead try to see your husband's soul, it will get better ... for you, just as much if not more than for him. It does eventually, really all fall into place.

:hugs:

[Sarasometimes]

Thank you Doormat for sharing your painful ordeal with us. I have few comments; Firstly, I think you may gain some solace if you can find someone to confide in about your situation that is as unbiased as possible. Talking with a friend who can't fathom your desire to stay married will not help you much nor would someone who can't fathom you seperating. Finding a good therapist/counseller who is knowledgeable in gender issues is a tough thing to do but that would be my first suggestion. Getting an understanding as to why your H needs to do this may help. I"ve been going to therapy for several years to better understand and manage my closeted (akaDADT) dressing and when the subject of bringing my wife up to speed is discussed I can't get past the you can't unsay something and you really hit on this and I thank you for that. If I venture down this path and she doesn't want it we are done. I can't say "oh nevermind i was kidding". I feel for you having images that bother you and I think a therapist may help with those.
One thing that may help ever so slightly is if you ask yourself one question about your H. Does he have good qualities that are somewhat considered feminine (examples: nuturing with your kids. Has a fashion sense when buying you gifts?...Does he skip the macho crap/ I'm a stay at home dad and I know that some of my ways of doing that are shaped by my place on the gender expression contiuum. I don't have a need to hang with the boys, flirt and act macho.
Best of luck to you and as we know life is short so do work toward making yourself happy in a way that is best for you, your children and then your H.

[Meghan]

OK first let's separate the pink-foggish things you described earlier ... if your husband sincerely is pushing you to "have fun" putting on his makeup or painting his nails, taking pics, having dress up nights as you both giggle into oblivion, he's got to change his attitude. This is not at all realistic when it comes to participation from a reluctant wife and as you pointed out, these are not things that women past their teenage years do.


While I 100% agree that this is not something a reluctant wife is willing to put up with, is it possible the dressup/take pictures/stay up late/slumber party phase is just that? A phase? After burying things for so long, I personally believe it to be a way to learn the skills that women have (and teens don't). If my theory is correct, the "female" identity essentially gets put into a deepfreeze around puberty (or when sufficient negative influence makes it harder to keep going, it's easier psychologically to repress it). I think it sits, in a dormant state until the cat is out of the bag.

As soon as "she" is back in the world again (and out of the back of the brain), she wants to develop and grow and catch up to the rest of the world. I think this explains the mad obsession with playing dressup and perhaps the pink fog. Like all life, the female side wants to not just survive but flourish. It can't automatically catch up because it hasn't been socialized past age 10 or 11. I think it's asking a lot to expect it to just be mature. IMPOSING this side on friends, partners, spouses and kids is not acceptable though. Everyone in the support system needs time to adapt and learn, not just "her". People need time to decide if they want to stay in or "opt out" too.


BUT, if he is asking you to sit with him while he's dressed to talk about the regular things the two of you talk about, in other words, your permission that he can just "be" himself in your presence occasionally (at least for as long as it takes for him to trust that you do not outright reject him), then he will be well served to go about this at YOUR pace, just like you said. If you feel pushed and backed into a corner, this will not help at all.

I think we all can get there with time. I think it's totally unfair of H to push it and impose the rules of engagement though. I think both need to work out a plan to maturity which respects boundaries and trust.


Also, please know that many CDers do have the desire to go out (my SO does) and this does not mean they are turning into women or they want to sleep with men. You might want to read my second paragraph in my post #20, if you are interested in knowing what the CDing looks like with my SO and I. And allow me to emphasize, my SO rarely, RARELY dresses at home any more. He just doesn't need to. He knows that he has no constraints on his freedom and this makes a huge difference.

I believe your husband has evolved over time and learned along the way, from you and your help and support. I bet he's supported you some, too, during this process.


But, it comes from a desire to want this part of themselves to be accepted by their wives. Also, many (most?) CDers believe themselves to be quite unattractive as men.

This has always been true for me. Put on makeup and looked in the mirror when I was 10 or 11-ish, that's the first time I every thought of myself as attractive. GREAT POINT!!!

This is a fascinating discussion. Thank you both for sharing it with us.

Meghan

[outhiking]

IMO, this is why I probably won't say a word to my future SO about my hobby. I rather keep it a secret rather than have her be involved in my hobby that she wants no part of.

If CD'ing is truly just a hobby for you, then you can take it or leave it and this would work out. However, for most of us it's deeply a part of who we are. I'm ashamed that I never shared it with my wife-to-be so many years ago. Still, I'd rather she know now then accidentily walk in on me or see some female clothing that's not her's and fear that I'm cheating on her. Ours is a DADT situation, but accidents do happen.

[ReineD]

While I 100% agree that this is not something a reluctant wife is willing to put up with, is it possible the dressup/take pictures/stay up late/slumber party phase is just that? A phase?

Yes these types of behaviors are very much a phase, thankfully. But this does not mean it is OK to insist that a wife participate in all the "glee" when she is trying to wrap her mind around the CDing. DM's husband needs to be realistic about his wife's state of mind, in other words, he needs to get out of the Pink Fog if he is, in fact, insisting that DM participate as if she was as enthralled about this particular brand of femininity as he is.

[Meghan]

Yes these types of behaviors are very much a phase, thankfully. But this does not mean it is OK to insist that a wife participate in all the "glee" when she is trying to wrap her mind around the CDing. DM's husband needs to be realistic about his wife's state of mind, in other words, he needs to get out of the Pink Fog if he is, in fact, insisting that DM participate as if she was as enthralled about this particular brand of femininity as he is.

100% agree!

I try to follow an honor, don't offer rule most of the time and I would suggest that to H...if the wife asks, talk away. If she doesn't, find another outlet...like here, or find a girlfriend to call etc. Join a support group! Secondlife worked for me for a couple of years too.

And I totally understand that's not always a followable rule 100% of the time...it's hard. It's really hard.

If H follows the rule 50% of the time that's going to be WAY too much for her. If H follows it 95% of the time it might still be overwhelming. DM needs all the time she needs to adjust to what, for her, is a new reality even though it's always been present for H at some level, whether consciously or not.

Meghan

[UNDERDRESSER]

Also, many (most?) CDers believe themselves to be quite unattractive as men..Interesting, I think this applies ( applied? ) to me.

Now I have a GF, who makes no bones about how attractive she finds me ( irrespective of how I am dressed ) I am finding my feelings on this subject are changing. i still want to dress in a body conscious way, but i am leaning more towards doing it with more male apparel. IIt helps that I work for a company that allows sporty clothing ( even somewhat encourages it )

I've said before, that I think some CD urges come from the fact that it isn't generally accepted for males to dress in a body displaying fashion. The old joke, "Cycling shorts look more ridiculuous the further you get from the bike" comes to mind.

[ReineD]

The old joke, "Cycling shorts look more ridiculuous the further you get from the bike" comes to mind.

And also, the further you get from healthy BMI. lol ... and this goes for GGs as well. :p

But seriously, the idea of not feeling attractive in male mode is behind a seemingly universal distaste for taking pride in and building up a decent male wardrobe. Even my own SO falls into this, and just this year, he finally bought new clothes for himself for the first time since I've known him. And they do look very nice! (BTW, my SO is also gorgeous as a male). :)

[UNDERDRESSER]

And also, the further you get from healthy BMI. lol ... and this goes for GGs as well. :p

But seriously, the idea of not feeling attractive in male mode is behind a seemingly universal distaste for taking pride in and building up a decent male wardrobe. Even my own SO falls into this, and just this year, he finally bought new clothes for himself for the first time since I've known him. And they do look very nice! (BTW, my SO is also gorgeous as a male). :)So true! Yes, I am starting to get more interested in building up my male wardrobe, with my SO's support I should add. I'm going to be looking at some Indian inspired stuff she has talked about, still a bit feminine looking from a Western perspective.

I think some of my distaste for a bigger male wardrobe has been that I see much of as displaying how financially succesful one is. I don't like that, and anyway, I've never been that succesfull financially!

[ReineD]

I think some of my distaste for a bigger male wardrobe has been that I see much of as displaying how financially succesful one is. I don't like that, and anyway, I've never been that succesfull financially!

And you don't think this is true for women as well? :D

Think of all the high priced designer clothes and the expensive fine jewelry, pricey Louboutin shoes, $700 leather bags, etc. These are definitely economic status symbols, that the less expensive clothing & accessories manufacturers strive to mimic.

[UNDERDRESSER]

And you don't think this is true for women as well? :D

Think of all the high priced designer clothes and the expensive fine jewelry, pricey Louboutin shoes, $700 leather bags, etc. These are definitely economic status symbols, that the less expensive clothing & accessories manufacturers strive to mimic.Good point, but they may have been bought by a previous BF, and the primary purpose is to display the body don't you think? It is also fairly easy to find cheap female clothes that can display in a similar manner.

[ReineD]

Good point, but they may have been bought by a previous BF, and the primary purpose is to display the body don't you think? It is also fairly easy to find cheap female clothes that can display in a similar manner.

No. The choice of presentation/adornment, for everyone, is very much a desire to reflect one's socio-economic status and values, whether a person likes to portray him/herself as an academic type, a bohemian type, an athletic type, a relaxed shabby/chic type, a successful business person, etc.

People use clothes to reflect who they feel they are and this goes for cisgenders as well as people who use clothes to reflect an alternative internal gender.

Just look at all the varied styles here, anything from the hippie chic, the goth, the business woman, the suburban wife ... each one of these looks reflects a particular socio-economic class.

[Julie Gaum]

A lot has been written with opinions supporting two sides but not "Fifty Shades of Gray". Doormat: You don't intend to be evasive and you are trying to be completely honest. For that I applaud you; however with all that you have typed I would summarize it as "My way or the highway". No, there is much more beyond career woman and children in this discussion that you can't bring yourself to reveal on this Forum. In my humble opinion either find a good gender therapist to unload with (First alone and then with "H") or pack it in ..... life is too short.
Julie

[MissTee]

It's threads like this one that help me fully appreciate my DW. We share a wonderful relationship as husband and wife and have for over 30 years. She's cool with my CDing, and even encourages it at certain times. She once told me I'm simply "dimensionally sophisticated" and it needs no explanation.

That said, I'm in man mode most of the time. About once every other month we get away for a girls weekend and will slip in a day here and there. In between time we shop together, get couples massages and mani/pedis together, and a few other bonding activities other might consider feminine. On the flip side, she goes fishing with me, works on the bikes with me, goes to the skeet range with me, etc.

In short, we choose to celebrate being alive and the togetherness. We've lost two children in separate tragedies and there's not a day goes by that that doesn't tear at us in some way. Thus, we'd both share that there are far worse things that can happen than me wearing a dress occasionally. Nevertheless, it might not be for everyone.

[Bree Wagner]

But he also needs to BACK OFF and let me deal in my time. This is going way too fast.


From the CD perspective, this can be really, really hard, but it can also 'work'. My wife and I have been together 13 years and it's been a roller-coaster in how crossdressing has played in our relationship. I told her about it from the beginning, but after some initial small experiments it faded into the background, not quite DADT but close, for many years. She just wasn't ready to deal with it. But what she did allow me the opportunity to do was to discuss it with her every so often. We'd talk about how it affected us, how it made her feel, and where we stood. She'd occasionally accuse me of being pushy and usually would just tell me she wasn't ready to deal with anything else just yet. I'd do my best to shelve the issue for a while. Thankfully she never closed the door on talking about it.

Almost a year ago we had another of the chats and it boiled down to her saying "Ok, let's take it slow, but I think I'm ready to start dealing with it". It's been an amazing year since then and I realize how lucky I am. Not everyone gets to this point, but if I hadn't given my wife the time and space she needed we never would have either.


Also, many (most?) CDers believe themselves to be quite unattractive as men.


Interesting conjecture. This seems worthy of a thread of it's own to see the response. I know I'm one sexy beast of a man. I also have an ego the size of the Hindenburg, but that's neither here nor there...

[Wildaboutheels]

"No. The choice of presentation/adornment, for everyone, is very much a desire to reflect one's socio-economic status and values, whether a person likes to portray him/herself as an academic type, a bohemian type, an athletic type, a relaxed shabby/chic type, a successful business person, etc."

EVERYONE? Sorry, Incorrect. Some people just dress in what they like or find comfortable and could care less what others think. Just as some millionaires drive what other folks might consider a "beater". Now if someone is attending some type of function, most will probably dress to suit the event.

Judging a book by it's cover is never a good idea IMO.

[ReineD]

Interesting conjecture. This seems worthy of a thread of it's own to see the response. I know I'm one sexy beast of a man. I also have an ego the size of the Hindenburg, but that's neither here nor there...

LOL LOL LOL. Well, you should have an ego. You're attractive!

But seriously, there have been quite a few threads about this about this over the years. I didn't make this up. :p

[Missy]

ok I must ask what is DADT?

[ArleneRaquel]

ok I must ask what is DADT?

DADT - Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

[Leslie Langford]

...But seriously, the idea of not feeling attractive in male mode is behind a seemingly universal distaste for taking pride in and building up a decent male wardrobe. Even my own SO falls into this, and just this year, he finally bought new clothes for himself for the first time since I've known him. And they do look very nice! (BTW, my SO is also gorgeous as a male). :)...

This is certainly something that I can relate to as well, and is what probably accelerated my descent down that slippery slope called "crossdressing".

I remember even as a young child being envious of the pretty clothes that girls were allowed to wear, as well as the enormous variety of styles, colors, materials etc. that they were comprised of. What a difference compared to the universally boring and uniform styles of clothing that were foisted upon us males, and where boldly colored and patterned neckties were about the only way that we could show some individual flair. Even better, girls were allowed to wear skirts, dresses AND pants, and every day, the trip to the closet to decide what to wear was an adventure, with so many possibilities available for mixing and matching and creating an individual "look". And the shoes...OMG, the shoes...and the make up...and the jewellery...and the accessories...!

Girls had so many options to make themselves look pretty and camouflage any perceived flaws they had regarding their appearance and body shape with judicious clothing choices, as well as a liberal application of make up and ever-changing hairstyles. No wonder that we teen-aged boys felt that we looked like total dweebs in comparison, and our self-esteem usually dwelled in the basement. These goddesses lived on another planet for all intents and purposes, and we could never be their equals. They also seemed as unattainable as those Playboy models and centerfolds that became our solace as we wrestled with our budding sexuality.

To DM's point, then - and I believe that Reine touched on this as well in another post - is it any wonder that some of us crossdressers appear to be cases of arrested development when it comes to our female clothing choices? After all, we never were 16 year-old girls who were able to experiment with make up and get their urge to dress sexily and provocatively once they hit puberty out of their systems at that time. And so, we make up for lost time (and opportunity) as we fast forward this process in our middle-aged years before ultimately settling on a more flattering and age-appropriate look that we can actually take out in public.

As DM continues to struggle with H's crossdressing and his apparent need to involve her in it (and to some extent, be "in her face" with it), perhaps she can take solace in the fact that it is probably just a phase within the larger context of his coming to terms with his "inner" girl (a.k.a. the infamous "Pink Fog"). This is a phase that in all likelihood, he will eventually outgrow as comes to terms with his transgenderism and lands in his own particular comfort zone, and where he can perhaps retreat back to a true DADT compromise with her that both can live with.

And yes, like many crossdressers here, I also feel that I make a far more attractive woman than a man when fully made up, although my wife seems quite happy with me in the looks department when in "guy" mode. Make up can do wonders as the crossdresser soon discovers and is very addictive, and the consensus here seems to be that when properly made up, most of us look a good 10 years younger than our biological age. This just adds to the "high" and is one more reason why we find our crossdressing so fascinating and appealing.

But I have also become so hooked on my female wardrobe and how much fun it is to dress en femme for the reasons already given above that I, too, have let my male wardrobe decline through attrition, and really have to force myself now to buy something new when it requires replacement or an update. This has become another bone of contention between my wife and myself, and she often feels compelled to buy me something new herself that she feels I will look good in when I appear to be letting myself go in the "drab" department.

[EllieOPKS]

HI Doormat
You represent the 99% of the women in the world in that not only dislike the idea of your husband cross dressing but it is actually repulsive to you. I think you are 100% normal. It's also normal to say do what ever floats your boat but count me out. I think he is about as big of a self centered jerk as you are likely to ever find. He's basically telling you that he fully understands your feelings and doesn't care. Maybe you should make him read your post on this website before he becomes one of the criers that posts on here "well, its over...she left me but I am still wearing my bra....poor pitiful me".

[UNDERDRESSER]

No. The choice of presentation/adornment, for everyone, is very much a desire to reflect one's socio-economic status and values, whether a person likes to portray him/herself as an academic type, a bohemian type, an athletic type, a relaxed shabby/chic type, a successful business person, etc.

People use clothes to reflect who they feel they are and this goes for cisgenders as well as people who use clothes to reflect an alternative internal gender.

Just look at all the varied styles here, anything from the hippie chic, the goth, the business woman, the suburban wife ... each one of these looks reflects a particular socio-economic class.All good points, but don't you think that many women's styles also have a very definite "body display" aspect that most men's don't?

[UNDERDRESSER]

It's threads like this one that help me fully appreciate my DW. We share a wonderful relationship as husband and wife and have for over 30 years. She's cool with my CDing, and even encourages it at certain times. She once told me I'm simply "dimensionally sophisticated" and it needs no explanation.

That said, I'm in man mode most of the time. About once every other month we get away for a girls weekend and will slip in a day here and there. In between time we shop together, get couples massages and mani/pedis together, and a few other bonding activities other might consider feminine. On the flip side, she goes fishing with me, works on the bikes with me, goes to the skeet range with me, etc.

In short, we choose to celebrate being alive and the togetherness. We've lost two children in separate tragedies and there's not a day goes by that that doesn't tear at us in some way. Thus, we'd both share that there are far worse things that can happen than me wearing a dress occasionally. Nevertheless, it might not be for everyone.Ouch! Sorry to hear of your loss, so glad you have your partner to help you face that. Your relationship sounds very like the one I am currently building with my GF. She is very happy to give me a pedi/manicure, doesn't care what I wear as long as it doesn't stop her touching me, is a better bicycle mechanic than I am ( you should see her happy grin when she has grease all over her hands! ) We just like....being together.

[Amanda22]

Ouch! Sorry to hear of your loss, so glad you have your partner to help you face that. Your relationship sounds very like the one I am currently building with my GF. She is very happy to give me a pedi/manicure, doesn't care what I wear as long as it doesn't stop her touching me, is a better bicycle mechanic than I am ( you should see her happy grin when she has grease all over her hands! ) We just like....being together.

Yes! That's like the relationship my wife and I have. We love and trust each other, and respect each other's desires and needs. Neither of us has to understand the other's motivations. We trust that the relationship is always safe, so it is.

<rant>
I know other couples in which the husband CDs and the wife is totally cool with it. The wives not only tolerate our dressing, they enjoy it! I think there's a common perception that no wife ever wants to hear about our needs. In my opinion, DADT is just hiding and creating a problem to deal with later. If I don't respect and honor my spouse in her entirety, then I'm a liability to her and I'd understand her leaving me. If she wants to wear a mustache, male clothing, and take voice-lowering classes, I'm all for it. I'll help her shop and have her put on a fashion show for me.

I'm sure my opinion is influenced by the fact I'm married to an enthusiastic person, but I really don't see what the big deal is seeing your spouse put on clothes intended for the opposite gender. It's fabric. "Oh my god, I can't deal with it. The world is forever changed!" You want a shift of your world? Hope your doctor never tells you or your loved one you have a terminal illness, or like MissTee, you lose a child.
</rant>

[Sarasometimes]

Hi Doormat,
I have already replied to this thread but I wanted to share some recent incite I got. This past weekend I got to spend all day Saturday dressed while my family was out of town and although I had great fun, the one thing missing was someone I cared about being there to share it with. Now with that being said, I understand that with my DADT situation that isn't possible so I needed to be satisfied with a fun day alone. The reason I'm sharing this is to give some incite as to your husband motivation to want you included. I'm not suggesting that that is a fair thing for him to do or expect, just maybe why he is insistent about it.
I hope you have found some solice and incite by your sharing with this board and i know you have given me incite into how a GG may look at DADT. Thanks again and I hope you can find peace and happiness.

[Jenniferathome]

I don't understand this and probably never will. This is a huge problem in my own marriage as I have NO desire to be involved in my H's dressing and yet he continually pressures me to do just that.

I agree, you will never understand because WE crossdressers will never understand. It is weird. Now, for me, the DADT means DISCUSSION about, not participation in, dressing. DADT is ignoring the elephant in the room. If a couple can not discuss the topic, that is horribly lonely and creates an atmosphere of "walking on eggshells," with the crossdresser always wondering. What you describe is well beyond DADT. Your desire to NOT be involved is perfectly fair and reasonable.

[Moxie]

I hope you have found some solice and incite by your sharing with this board and i know you have given me incite into how a GG may look at DADT. Thanks again and I hope you can find peace and happiness.
Thanks, I'm happy enough I suppose, but I imagine peace is a way off. I'm back to lurking on this forum again as I realize I feel very out of place here. My thoughts on my H's dressing are very different to those of everyone here. I struggle to see and understand the things said - such as the 'inner girl' and expressing a female side. How would any man ever really know they had an inner girl? Has anyone here ever actually been inside the head of a female? I can't help feeling my H's dressing is more a misdirection than an inner girl. He has zero feminine traits other than his collection of clothing and honestly, from a GG perspective, his desire to dress seems rather self centered - another irony. Women tend to put the needs of others first. To me, crossdressing seems like a very 'guy' thing to do.

Anyway, I'll keep lurking and learning and maybe I'll understand more over time, or maybe I won't. Maybe there is nothing to understand. My H is who he is and I can see now that this is a lifetime issue we will be dealing with, or at least he will be dealing with, as I haven't yet decided whether that this is something I can live with. DADT is not going to work, I see that now. I also see that CD can be a gender issue and not just about the clothing, though once again (and purely from a GG perspective) I can also see the addictive element at work here and just watching the strange high my H experiences after enjoying himself alone I worry that pushing further for that high creates gender confusion that was never originally there.

So yes, little peace here I'm afraid as my head is thinking about everything. But thanks to everyone who responded here. I know I come across as abrupt and cold but really, if you met me you'd see I'm actually a very warm, fun, and yes ATTRACTIVE girl (I know many people assume angry women must be bitter and ugly) who was very content until the rug (or doormat) got pulled out from under her five years ago and I'm still staggering. My H, the MAN I love, has disappeared into this pink fog everyone speaks of and I'm half tempted to just leave him there!

But we will see. I will lurk and learn and maybe post now and again, if I haven't been banned by then for speaking the mind of an upset GG!

DM

[STACY B]

You know what I see when I read your post ? I would BET anything that the Chix here Just Can't wait till you get 10 post so they can PM the hell outta you .. Cuz they just love the GG perspective an want to know all about you an your views . I think you should follow your heart ,,This Thing is Not for Everyone ,, Not good nor Bad if you bailed ,,It's not ,,, If I were you an you just couldn't deal with it I would Break Camp cuz lifes to short ,,If my wife told me she can't deal with it I would respect her more for making a choice an us not having to fus an fight about a bunch of Craziness . Cuz for me This is Home ,,, Way to much wasted time already ,,But I am 1 of a Kind ,, An I stay the same no matter what I wear ,,I am me ,,, An that's the way I will always be ,, There are lots of people in this big ol world that just don't care an lots that do ,,The only trick to this Madness is finding the right Group ,,An that's that ! No Magic just that !

[paulinescotlandcd]

Heck, you stated, if you knew he was a cross dresser you (and the vast majority of women) would not marry the guy. Heck, I would never marry a smoker.

This about sums up my opinion. The vast majority of women simply can't look at their man in a dress (etc) and see simply their man in a dress, it skews their view of him despite how manly he might be out of a dress. I told my wife before we got married and 33 years later we still have issues over the matter. I have concluded that CD'ing is, in the vast majority of cases, incompatible with married life.

[Lorileah]

Wow, am I late arriving to this party.

I know there have been many comments and honestly I have not read them all. But I feel I have to respond to a couple things here.

Hobby? A hobby is making train sets or collecting coins. Not something that is innate. I know you have a different perspective and I am glad you decided to join here so you can learn. But this is not a "hobby" to the majority. It is something we "are". Now if your H is indulging for sexual purposes or just to annoy you that is another story. I am going assume that H is actually a part of the TG spectrum that is not looking for a reaction or a fetishist. Maybe if you (and him if he is the one who tells you it is a hobby) started looking at this not as playtime or something that fills a Sunday afternoon, it may help you reconcile part of it.

Forcing you to partake is wrong no matter what the activity. Common misconception is that married couples need to be together 24/7 and share the same likes and dislikes. This is a major cause for rifts in the relationship. Differences are good. Differences let you take a break, to grow as a person beyond your spouse. So not wanting to partake is OK. Calling him "silly" is not OK. No more than if he called you some sort of put down for whatever you do. (and as an aside here when a person says things like "no offense" or "don't take this personally" they really are saying I know I am being offensive and I am making it personal, own what you say or just don't say it...I don't mean to be rude.)

Now as far as seeing how hard it is for the GG, try being on the other side of the coin. We don't choose to be different. It isn't a choice we make. That would be sort of strange to want to become a fringe group. Looked askance upon, having remarks made, not being treated as a human but as a freak. It is hard for all of us and believe me if we could make the world a better place we would. Most of us have been in the over compensation groove. Macho attitudes, dangerous sports, he-man activities. We try but it doesn't work (or else we would not be here now). We have the same issues you have with dressing. We feel that it is wrong, that we are somehow bad or strange people. It does not help much when the one person we have chosen to be there for us through thick and thin, richer or poorer, reinforces all the bad things we believe. Everything you know about TG you have been taught. Taught by persons who have not lived it or who have the wrong information. remember the world being flat? (OK you weren't there but I was). The reason it was being taught as flat is because for the casual observer you don't see the curve, you see the edge or what appears to be the edge. So someone who everyone believes in knowledgeable says "Since you cannot see beyond 10 miles, the Earth just ends there." Then one day some guy decides to see if that is true and..over the next 100 years..the position changes. The same is true of TGism. You have been told it is wrong. But why do you believe that? Clothing isn't magical. It does not make you strong or bold or wise. When you put on slacks does that make you stronger? Why do you believe that the clothing your H wears makes him less a person (notice I didn't say "man" because that is just a bad label..what is a man anyway? AT best it describes an adult with a certain part of anatomy). You have been told, by people who have either an agenda or are ignorant, that men in skirts or dresses or makeup or heels or whatever are "perverts, gay, murderers, clowns" in general not "normal". You get information that is incomplete or just wrong. And you build on that. It is hard to un-learn anything. But you have to be willing to start with a fresh slate.

This is not all one sided. It is something that both of you have to work on together. That is marriage right? Working together, work FOR each other, being your spouse's best friend? You should not support illegal activities, you should not support abuse, you should not support meanness. But you should support the person. No matter how they present.

Yogi Berra said (ok gratuitous sports analogy because I am after all that appendage)
Ninety per cent of the game is half mental. . That fits here. It is the mental part that needs to be changed. It is the learned response that started with the day you were born and they told you you "have to" be something. Boys are this and girls are that. We know that isn't true. This is just a vestigial thing that needs to be seen with "new eyes". Why do you think it is silly? If he grew a beard would that make it less silly? Do you not know the person under the clothes? There was a reason you married him. I hope it wasn't because of looks. Looks fade. True heart remains.

Sorry if this seems mean. I don't want you to believe that I have chosen one side over the other. I have been on both sides. Trust me, life is too short to fight, Like the spouse that hated the SO's snoring, but then missed it when they died. I have made a huge assumption here that your H is a crossdresser and not a fetishist. If I am wrong mea culpa. But in the grand scheme of the world, when one spouse becomes unmoving it makes the relationship less happy. Work together, learn from each other, compromise, see the world from a new angle. My way or the highway leaves one person with their thumb in the air.

[giuseppina]

...Heck, you [DoorMat] stated, if you knew he was a cross dresser you (and the vast majority of women) would not marry the guy. Heck, I would never marry a smoker.

Smoking is on my short list of dealbreakers as well, but at the same time, I like to think I am open-minded enough to tolerate anything as long as it does no real harm. One of the very few things Dr. Phil said that I agree with is words to the effect that "It isn't the <insert harmless taboo activity here> that is the problem, it is how you deal with it that causes problems."

[Angela Campbell]

This is what I get out of this, feel free to correct me. H is a crossdresser, like most of us he doesn't want to be but was born this way. He is not going to quit. It seems that his desire is escalating ...it does for most of us.
You have known for quite a while, I think I read 3 or 4 years?
You do not accept it at all and quite probably never will.
H has probably lived with this for most of his life and undoubtedly has felt all alone in this and is quite likely ashamed of it as well. He desparately needs someone who understands him, I do not think you will. His bahaviour sounds a bit rude or pushy to demand you accept it but he is desparate.
Sounds like a mexican standoff to me. He will not quit and you will not accept it. Either he gives in and goes back to keeping it secret from you or you tolerate it and allow resentment to build up and the relationship suffers. I do not think either one of these sounds good. I wish I could offer something but there is nothing I can offer.

No DM you do not know me. I have been married twice and I did not allow either of my spouses to even have an inkling I do this. It has always been there from as far back as I remember. I didn't want to cause my spouses the same level of discomfort I had about this. It is a burden I bear alone. It is a lonely existance, I am sure he is frustrated too. I wish both of you the best.

[Darla]

Hi Doormat (it's so hard to address you that way)

I can absolutely see your viewpoint, that CDing is an addictive and self perpetuating activity, that we all (cDers) feel comes to define us. It's hard to not see it in the pink fog, but your words would pretty much sum up my wife's view of it. She doesn't understand and doesnt care to read books, consider what it would be like to live with me if I ever dressed around her. But I can understand that she doesn't understand why I can't just turn it off, stop it and concentrate on other things. It's like being stuck in a loop and yes, you're right, no one can truly understand what it is like to be a genetic girl. We approximate it, sometimes tragically. But I just passed a woman on the street who approximates a stereotype of femininity that borders on the overcompensating - decked out in "trashy chic" that was an amazing display of a hard right turn on the feminine spectrum. Where an I going with this?

Oh yeah - your spouse seems to be asking too much of you and needs more. More acceptance. I suspect that your spouse wants something that he can't have, and there's a certain allure in that. But it comes at a cost to you and it sure seems like its too much.

I totally get the yuck factor of seeing your guy in a dress. You are who to are and you don't find it acceptable at all. Thats something he wants to change. It's unfair of him to ask you to if it's beyond your comfort level. In fact I think its rated selfish. However hard your marriage might be I don't believe he knows how lucky he is that you tolerate the DADT policy.

You two are at a stalemate I find my marriage in. Only he gets to dress. I don't. I've pretty much given it up and every day is torture. So maybe he should suck it up, join a support group if he wants some affirmation, and get thee both into couciling so you both can't figure out why he's pushing and if the
Marriage can be saved. From your attitude it seems like you're on the fence. Maybe he doesn't know that.

Good luck and hope you can work it out, if it works for you both.

Darla

[Badtranny]

But we will see. I will lurk and learn and maybe post now and again, if I haven't been banned by then for speaking the mind of an upset GG!

DoorMat!!!!

I love your posts and your perspective. I especially love that you're pissed off and not afraid to say it. I generally support my CD sisters by default, but I'm not married to one. The variety of CD attitudes and personalities is so huge that they absolutely defy categorization. Some of them I immediately feel a kinship with while there are others who seem like they're from another planet. Having said that, cross-dressing would NOT be a deal breaker for me as long as I knew it from the very beginning. There are a few CD's on this board who I would totally date and I'm on record as digging big strong alpha males. The deciding factor to me is confidence and self acceptance. If my otherwise masculine guy wanted to dress up on occasion and go out with his friends then I wouldn't mind that at all. But if he wanted to sit around the house in a bra and panties and pretend his name was Esmerelda and wanted us to giggle like girlfriends, than that relationship would be a short one.

The issue here isn't cross dressing is it? It's a personality conflict. You don't like his "fem" personality because his internalized shame has broken him into two people. It is NOT your job to work through his issues. If I were you, I would be on the road because all the time you spend wishing things were different is just wasted time, and if there is one thing a tranny knows, it's that time is way too valuable to waste wishing.

[ReineD]

But if he wanted to sit around the house in a bra and panties and pretend his name was Esmerelda and wanted us to giggle like girlfriends, than that relationship would be a short one.

Me too! LOL. You do have a way of putting things. :D



My thoughts on my H's dressing are very different to those of everyone here.

Not really, if you compare your thoughts to the other GGs. Many wives feel the same way you do. And although I support my SO's need to dress, there were aspects of it that I found hugely difficult and painful to understand.


I also see that CD can be a gender issue and not just about the clothing, though once again (and purely from a GG perspective) I can also see the addictive element at work here and just watching the strange high my H experiences after enjoying himself alone I worry that pushing further for that high creates gender confusion that was never originally there.

I get confused about this too. It's very difficult to determine why there seems to be such euphoria (pink fog) involved with expressing an alternate gender especially in the beginning. And, what wife wants to be married to a partner who appears to feel this enamored about something that is outside his relationship with his wife? We're talking about more than a love of golf here, and more than just taking on the expression of femininity as yet another facet of a CDer's personality. The highs seem to be akin to the highs that most of us experience when we first fall in love!

My SO and I began our relationship just as he was beginning to step out of his closet, going out in the mainstream in the next town over, very much during the time when I was still in the "new love" phase of our relationship. Without going into all the details, eventually it did feel as if his priorities had shifted away from me, and he was falling out of love with me. I was devastated and the only way I could survive was to also step back emotionally from him ... not because I was against the idea that he needed to express femininity, but because I felt that it was by far his most profound source of emotional joy, and at the time I felt that he could never feel the same way about me. I did not want to be in an unequal relationship, where he was my heart's priority, while expressing femininity was his, this was just too hard. So I also managed to pull away emotionally (I was not able to break it off entirely), to the point where I accepted that we only had a casual, part time sort of "dating" relationship … not the intimate, emotional connection between soul mates that I thought we had had. Slowly I began to detach and it was heartbreaking for me. We tried talking about all of this at the time, but we were both on different pages and the talks were not successful.

I can't pretend that I know what my SO was experiencing during that stage of our relationship, if it was pink fog over his increased feminine expression or if there were other relationship issues outside the CDing that were affecting the distancing. But, just as I felt that our relationship was ending, things began to change. I don't know if he noticed that we were having issues and he made a concerted effort to improve things, of if the focus/priority of experiencing all these wonderful new aspects of the CDing abated naturally as my SO found a way to incorporate expressing her femininity into his regular life, OR, if I just slowly stopped looking at the Cding through the lens that I had looked at it previously. Probably it was a combination of all these things. So now, things have settled down considerably for both of us. We're back in the proverbial saddle again. :)

My point in sharing this is to tell you that if your husband has it in him, as you say, to "be even more gender confused" (which really means questioning whether he is transsexual and wanting to transition), then no amount of suppression or non-acceptance from you with stop this. It may delay the final decision a bit, but in the meantime the two of you will continue to experience an uncomfortable push/pull with all of this. On the other hand, if your husband is NOT a transsexual (like my SO), then allowing him to express himself on a regular basis will help him to reach the place where he is happy with his own routine, and it will cease to take on epic proportions in his mind.

Among the vast majority of CDers, "more CDing" does not lead to wanting to become a woman, although it seems as if the members who do feel this way are pretty vocal around here ... as they should be. When you think of it, the members who are struggling with whether they are women or not do need to work through a lot more stuff than someone who knows who they are. My SO has not participated in this forum for well over a year. S/he's too busy!

[Moxie]

...it seems as if the members who do feel this way are pretty vocal around here ... as they should be. When you think of it, the members who are struggling with whether they are women or not do need to work through a lot more stuff than someone who knows who they are. My SO has not participated in this forum for well over a year. S/he's too busy!

You know, this makes A LOT of sense to me. I imagine plenty of the stories on here that scare me are from those facing the very difficult position of being truly gender dysphoric and it makes perfect sense that they're the most vocal. It's a little unnerving to a wife though, and perhaps some of these stories could be filtered into different categories? Or maybe that just separates everyone which I also imagine would make people feel worse. I will have to learn which posts to read!

I have also spoken enough to my H to know he isn't a transexual, nor has he ever had any personal doubt in this area. He doesn't consider himself to have any 'girl' inside his head or anywhere else. I don't feel this is our problem but rather his lack of control and addiction to dressing that is now, apparently, involving me. This is the pink fog, I guess. Funny, but I wouldn't mind a pink fog of my own right about now! I feel like having some fun times away from reality too. But I don't have any real way of disappearing from myself like my H can and that bugs me as, like you mentioned with your SO Reine, I often think he has more love for CD than for me.

And maybe he does. :sad:

I also thought I'd address the "silly" comment someone here mentioned. I didn't actually say this to my H as I'm not that unkind. I just posted here that this is how I instinctively feel about a man in a dress and that's something I know I need to work on. I totally understand how unfair this double standard is, given if I wanted to I could tug on a pair of work boots, tool belt and hike down the road and no-one would blink an eye. I get this. But I also wouldn't stuff socks down my pants or tape a fake beard to my face so this is a little different. I also wonder why women don't CD if it is something people are born with? Surely a birth condition would affect both genders and you'd have an equal portion of men and women doing this? Or maybe women do CD and they don't talk about it?

Thinking aloud...sorry.

Anyway, I'm grateful for all the feedback and comments here as they've given me much to contemplate. I may take a hiatus from the forum for a bit (lurking still, of course) as I'm not ready yet to chat to other wives as I feel crossdressed out, if that makes sense. I need to think of something else for a while and settle my mind. I've told my H to leave things alone for now and he has agreed to do that, amazingly. I guess this is a start.

Thanks again.

[ReineD]

I imagine plenty of the stories on here that scare me are from those facing the very difficult position of being truly gender dysphoric and it makes perfect sense that they're the most vocal. It's a little unnerving to a wife though, and perhaps some of these stories could be filtered into different categories? Or maybe that just separates everyone which I also imagine would make people feel worse. I will have to learn which posts to read!

Absolutely! You can imagine what I went through five years ago as my SO was branching out and either intentionally not communicating everything that was going through his mind to me, or assuming that I already knew and understood everything. lol. :p I put myself through the wringer reading all the threads here. And what complicates things is, no one puts "fetish CD", "identity CD", "TS", or "TS questioning" under their names, nor does anyone confine themselves neatly to the appropriately named forum sections! :D So yes, I had to learn to filter. And I asked a lot of questions. I'd PM people and ask what they meant when they said such and such in a thread. I'm sure many people thought I was a pain. The best solution for you though, would be to outright show a thread that concerns you to your SO, and get him to tell you how he feels about the individual posts. Tackle it by the horns, believe me it's a lot easier when you put everything out on the table that way.



I don't feel this is our problem but rather his lack of control and addiction to dressing that is now, apparently, involving me. This is the pink fog, I guess.

If this is fairly new behavior, sometimes the beginning feminine expressions seem fetishistic, when they're not really. I don't know your husband, but just the fact that you're married, with kids (and presumably happy together in and out of the bedroom) tells me that he is experiencing a need to express non-fetish femininity but he doesn't quite know how to yet. I'll give you an analogy. A few years ago I conducted an experiment. I wanted to know how difficult it would be for me to exhibit male behavior and so I asked my SO to give me some pointers on how to walk like a guy. I wasn't trying to be humorous, but honestly my attempts were so exaggerated that it was laughable. It's hard to express a gender different than the one we've been socialized in. So the more salient things about the other gender are the first things we notice and try to copy. In the case of a man who has a normal male libido, these things will be what men are attracted to, or the more stereotypical features of femininity, which are for example short skirts, blonde wigs, bright red nails, and so on. My SO's tastes in clothing and activities matured a great deal over the years with exposure and practice and now she dresses like any other GG. I think I mentioned that she goes out about twice per week schedule permitting and honestly, unless she talks to someone, most people don't clue in that he is a genetic male.

As to your husband involving you, I'm glad that he is respecting your head space about this right now and not insisting. Doing otherwise will make things much worse. But, your marriage is a two way street and the CDing (according to everything that I know about it) is not going away. So at one point you will need to make up your mind about how willing you are to recognize your husband's needs. And if you still can't be involved (he really does need to learn just how to be his normal self when he is dressed), then for the sanity of your marriage, he will need some time and space on his own. TG support groups are a good solution. The one that my SO belonged to (we hardly go any more since we don't need to), welcomes wives, parents, adult children, etc. They're a good bunch of people and there is absolutely no fetish/sexual behaviors involved. It's a large group and there is always dinner, a buisness meeting, an activity or a speaker, and just chance to sit around the table, make new friends, and reconnect with old friends.



Funny, but I wouldn't mind a pink fog of my own right about now! I feel like having some fun times away from reality too.

I felt the same way too. But not any more. :hugs:


like you mentioned with your SO Reine, I often think he has more love for CD than for me.

This is the single most difficult issue between the CDers and their wives and the hardest thing to bridge between couples. But you need to understand that your husband and my SO are not like men who do not crossdress. So we cannot ascribe to them the same motives that we did to our past boyfriends for example. As difficult as it is for your husband to learn how to express femininity without making a caricature of it, it is hugely difficult for us as their partners to learn how to redefine what we thought we knew about them (and by extension our own roles in their lives), based on all the other men we've known throughout our lives. It's like learning a different language, and this is why communication is essential to a marriage where there is CDing. If he does something that rubs you the wrong way (for example acting like a frilly teenager), you and your husband have GOT to get to a point where each one of you can talk and BE HEARD without the other feeling insulted, hurt, or angry. And learn to come up with solutions that will be beneficial to you BOTH. It just never works when it just goes one way.

Good Luck DM! My heart goes out to you. But, I hugely admire your willingness to lay it out on the line with us here, and work through what everyone has said. It gives me hope that you will be able to do the same with your husband.

:love:

[Meghan]

If he does something that rubs you the wrong way (for example acting like a frilly teenager), you and your husband have GOT to get to a point where each one of you can talk and BE HEARD without the other feeling insulted, hurt, or angry. And learn to come up with solutions that will be beneficial to you BOTH. It just never works when it just goes one way.

My wife has been working with me on this for years now. It's hard not to pout when I am called out for feeling embarrassed or silly. It's really, really hard to get past that reflex.

The only way I know of to get to that place, where I am willing to listen to anything she says, is to let my defenses totally down. But I can do that only when I truly know that I am safe. That's the tough question, right? How do we both get to a place where we know we are completely safe to discuss anything?

I used to ask her questions like "are you sure" when she told me it was OK to push the front seat back when she was in the back seat. I thought I was being nice, she thought I was questioning her. I realized quite quickly that she was right. If I was pushing the seat back too far, she WOULD have told me, and I have learned to trust that.

Meghan

[Michelle V]

I believe you as supportive a wife as you are have every right to vent about your situation, your husband is a very lucky man for having a wife that allows him to express himself. I am aware of how ridiculous I feel, society has made it clear that if you are different then there is something very wrong with you and our lifestyle is a Huge NoNo. The fact that you allow your spouse to share his pastime with others is a great gesture. I believe he is torn between his role as yous partner and his need to be feminine, we are a selfish kind, and sometimes we seek approval from our spouses because deep inside we realize we are taking some very important principals of marriage with our dressing. Best of licks to you both and thank you for being involve.

[paulinescotlandcd]

Just me again, I was going to send you a wee light hearted message but it would appear that I can neither send you a private message or email, maybe another time. All the best.

[Moxie]

Just me again, I was going to send you a wee light hearted message but it would appear that I can neither send you a private message or email, maybe another time. All the best.

Apparently I'm hopeless at lurking, lol. I promise to give up posting after this! But all light hearted messages are appreciated during this trying time, only I have no clue why they are not allowed?

Though, the thought counts a lot. Thanks :)

[Presh GG]

Hi DM

I am also a married GG... It seems Reine has been the only other GG in this 5 page thread , but DM , there are sooo many of us here,everybody's just staying out of MTF right now. I know not why... Life, I guess?

Please ,Please just take a peek into FAB.. There are GGs there on the whole spectrum of understanding. Not just a gang of women trying to talk you into accepting or makeing you feel " odd one out " ..I PROMISE. We''ll listen and our storys are an "open book ".

Also, we talk about alot more than just CDing.

I hope we see you there.
Presh GG

[ReineD]

Apparently I'm hopeless at lurking, lol. I promise to give up posting after this! But all light hearted messages are appreciated during this trying time, only I have no clue why they are not allowed?

Yes, they're allowed! :)

You hadn't yet posted ten times when Pauline tried to send you a Private Message (PM), which is our in-house mailbox. Your PM capabilities were not yet activated. You've got 12 posts now, so you're good to go.

[sometimes_miss]

O.K, I simplified this quote, but for a reason, I have a simple answer


Since when did CD become something us wives MUST be involved in? Is this YOUR hobby or ours? Please forgive my anger here, but I get so confused and, yes, resentful, when I hear men whine about DADT as though somehow we NEED to be a part of your CD lives.
Heard this idea on a show called 'Becker' many years ago. Sometimes marriage means you have to do things you hate, with someone you love. Just because you love them. I don't like decorating the house, I don't like shopping, I don't like visiting all her cranky relatives, I don't like a lot of things. I didn't like that she cut her hair short and almost completely stopped wearing dresses and skirts 'because it's a pain', I didn't like that she stopped routinely shaving her legs after we got married,I didn't like that she was a lousy cook, I didn't like that she left sharp objects all over the house, I didn't like that she left the TV, radio and lights on when she left the house, I didn't like that she left the doors unlocked when she left the house and sometimes even the door wide open, I didn't like that she ruined my expensive tools, I didn't like that she erased my hard drive, I didn't like that she seemed to insist I keep the toilet ready for her use but seemed to think there was no purpose to the lid on the toilet, I didn't like that she left her shoes in the middle of the hall for us to trip on in the dark, yes, I didn't like a lot of things. But I put up with them because I loved her.
Ladies, if you're upset because you can't tolerate the concept that your man isn't the 100% macho man you think you need to get yourself hot, fine, but remember you're not perfect either; we have to love each other despite the imperfections. Remember, he STILL IS the man you married. Only how you decide to interpret who he is, has changed. How he feels about you has NOT changed, and that should be the most important thing you must remember.

[ReineD]

Hey, Sometimes_miss, don't hold back! :) I divorced my husband after a 30 year marriage, and I had nowhere near the long list of things that bugged me about him as you have. lol




Ladies, if you're upset because you can't tolerate the concept that your man isn't the 100% macho man you think you need to get yourself hot, fine, but remember you're not perfect either; we have to love each other despite the imperfections. Remember, he STILL IS the man you married. Only how you decide to interpret who he is, has changed. How he feels about you has NOT changed, and that should be the most important thing you must remember.

Coincidentally, I've just spent a considerable amount of time on this in another thread. It's not about wanting to be married to a macho man. It's about the difficulty involved with having to share our role as the woman in our relationships, when nothing in our lives prepared us for the possibility that one day we might need to. Even non-macho men who do not CD, have no desire to share the woman's role with their wives. And it's about more than learning to reinterpret who our husbands are. It's about reinterpreting who WE are in our relationships with men who wish to share our roles ... and changing our expectations of the relationship dynamics as the result.

Not saying it isn't doable, just that it isn't as simple as you make it out to be. :)

[MsJanessa]

Actually for many of us it's more than a "hobby"--the two descriptions which fit it best would be "lifestyle" and/or "compulsion"--that's why we want our wives, significant others, etc to share it with us and even enjoy it---obviously howver, there are many women who are put off by this and don't want anything to do with it, hence DADT---

[DonniDarkness]

Doormat,

Hi my name is Donni. Im a married crossdresser and i have a wife that supports me, but it was never an easy path to get where we are today with acceptance and understanding about each other. I have written a great deal about our experiences, anxieties, and fears on this forum. I wanted to add some things to this thread that i thought might help your perspective.

Reading your posts in this thread i hear a woman who really loves her husband and is IN LOVE with the Idea that she has the man of her dreams. Now, Crossdressing and Transgenderism has thrown a man sized monkey wrench into your perspective of your husband as a Masculine man.

As crossdressers most of us go thru phases of self acceptance, Denial, depression, anxiety, and euphoric daydreaming (pink fog). It sounds like your hubby is going thru self acceptance and struggling with anxieties about who he is as a Transgender Man.
Thats why all of a sudden he is seeking your Validation and Participation. He is trying to tell you that this is an important part of who he is and he craves and needs your acceptance because he is in love with you. Your important to him and without your participation even in conversation about Crossdressing and his Transgender needs, it just adds more anxiety to his dysphoria. He needs to be able to talk to you about this part of his life, even if you decide you want nothing to do with crossdressing. Your HIS Wife, he needs that soft hearted ear to listen and help him guide his path through the frustrating times and the good times. So even if you decide to never be a part of crossdressing, i humbly implore you to at least listen to him and continue to educate yourself on what it means to be Married to a Crossdresser, so that way you can help and support him emotionally and mentally throughout the rest of your lives together.

You keep repeating the phrase in different words "Ive lost my husband!?"

Have you really lost him? Does he live his life happily married to you and support you as a Husband should? Protector, Father to your children, Housedad/Help with income and finances.....(the list goes on and is different for every couple). If he does all these things and has made you so happy and made you fall in love with him just by being the man you always wanted to fall in love with...you need to ask yourself truly why your so upset about the idea that you have lost this man you love. Hes still there....the only thing that has changed is what you know about his self identity as a Crossdresser.

The clothes, makeup and wigs are all just objects that help the rest of the world perceive us as we perceive ourselves. Crossdressing is an illusion for the rest of the world that would normally see us as just another average joe. The illusion is a outlet for us and it is also a cause of internal turmoil throughout our interpersonal struggles.
At times we crave more than just the illusion...we need validation from the ones we love and respect. Thats the major reason your hubby would love to giggle like girls and put on make-up and play dress up with you. It not that hes trying to change your outlook on crossdressing, hes seeking to have some social interaction with someone he loves and respects.

Socially we go through some pretty awkward phases. As men we are told to deny all feelings, emotions and fears....because men are "supposed" to be hardened, emotionally shut off and never scared of anything.....But some of us are still all the things we should be perceived as....just some of have a really innate urge to rock a mini skirt....but id still WALK THROUGH FIRE to be there for my wife when she needs me. Why?...Because im madly in love with her.

From my side of things in this thread i dont think that you really want to leave him for being a crossdresser....you just need to be reminded that your man is still there for you when you need that knight in shining armor to sweep your worries away. If thats the case then tell him so. Communication is what all the successful CD relationships have, even if they are DADT.


If you or your husband have any specific questions feel free to PM me. Im here to try and help.

Tough and Fabulous,
-Donni-

[Michelle (Oz)]

Donni

That was a good and thoughtful post which captures my situation too. It may be helpful as I try to turn my wife's abhorrence of CDing around.

Thanks
Michelle

[Asche]

The clothes, makeup and wigs are all just objects that help the rest of the world perceive us as we perceive ourselves. Crossdressing is an illusion for the rest of the world that would normally see us as just another average joe.
For me, it is the "average joe" that is the illusion. I tried for decades to "pass" as a normal man, and IMHO didn't do a very good job at it. Finally, after a half-century of pretending, I started trying to "pass" as myself, whoever he is. It is when I dress that I show something of who I really am -- at least, to the extent that one can ever see who someone "really is" simply by looking at them.


At times we crave more than just the illusion...we need validation from the ones we love and respect.
Everyone needs that. Everyone needs a place where and people with whom they don't have to lie about who they are. The more you have to pretend to be somebody else, the less you are anybody at all, and the more you become a shell of a man. And the more you have to hide parts of your essential self (because society won't tolerate it), the more you need some place and some person where you don't have to hide.

[DonniDarkness]

For me, it is the "average joe" that is the illusion. I tried for decades to "pass" as a normal man, and IMHO didn't do a very good job at it. Finally, after a half-century of pretending, I started trying to "pass" as myself, whoever he is. It is when I dress that I show something of who I really am -- at least, to the extent that one can ever see who someone "really is" simply by looking at them.I find that it is much easier to pass as a Unique Individual rather than trying to pass as a gender. Passing is subjective to your internal view of yourself, but this thread isnt about passing as man or woman, this thread is about couples who struggle with acceptance and understanding within their own personal relationships.


The more you have to pretend to be somebody else, the less you are anybody at all, and the more you become a shell of a man. And the more you have to hide parts of your essential self (because society won't tolerate it) This statement bothers me. You hide because society wont accept you?...sounds familiar,i used to hide too. Then i went out. The more i went out, the more all these ingrained societal anxieties were left in the closet i stepped out of. Ive been out many times now and yet to have a "bad" experience. No one was waiting with pitchforks and torches.... And over the past couple of years i have quit letting fear rule my happiness as a Transgender Man. My quality of life is superior now compared to what it was after i gave fear back to the society that "wouldnt tolerate me"

Dont let Fear rule your life. Own who you are.

-Donni-

[Asche]

I find that it is much easier to pass as a Unique Individual rather than trying to pass as a gender. Passing is subjective to your internal view of yourself, but this thread isnt about passing as man or woman, this thread is about couples who struggle with acceptance and understanding within their own personal relationships.
"Average joe" isn't a gender, it's a role. It's a lot more than being visibly male. And "passing" is very much about other people's view of you if the goal is to avoid being ostracised and harassed. Some male people take to the "average joe" role easily, to the point that it is, for all intents and purposes, who they are. Others of us always find it foreign, and even if we're successful at it (I was not), we feel alienated from ourselves when we do it. And if we do it long enough, we don't know who we are any more.

And, yes, I think it is relevant to this thread because a component of the conflict is that H is not the "average joe" that W thought he was when she married him and that H probably thought he could be or at least "pass" as back when they were getting married.



The more you have to pretend to be somebody else, the less you are anybody at all, and the more you become a shell of a man. And the more you have to hide parts of your essential self (because society won't tolerate it)

This statement bothers me. You hide because society won't accept you? ..sounds familiar,i used to hide too. Then i went out. The more i went out, the more all these ingrained societal anxieties were left in the closet i stepped out of. Ive been out many times now and yet to have a "bad" experience. No one was waiting with pitchforks and torches.

And yours bothers me, too, because it seems simplistic.

You may be lucky enough to be able to not-hide in your way without negative consequences. Not everyone is so lucky. When I wrote "because society won't tolerate it," I actually had in mind what life was like for gay people when I was growing up (1950's and 1960's), when people I knew were essentially run out of town when people found out they were gay. (It still happens -- Google "anoka" and "homophobia".) And plenty of people here have reported concrete negative consequences if they become known as CDers.

I'm actually pretty lucky. In contrast to when and where I grew up, I'm in a part of the USA that is pretty tolerant of "eccentricities," and I'm living in a time when, in the Western World, at least, there is growing tolerance and even appreciation for people who are "different." So I can now wear skirts and dresses pretty much anywhere (except work) with no problems.

It is the people who can't trust that certain parts of who they are will be accepted who most need a place where they can show those parts of them to someone else and have them accepted and recognized.

Because we humans need to be seen in order to exist -- to refuse to see us is to erase us.

[DonniDarkness]

because it seems simplistic.It is simplistic...Stop making excuses about why you cant be who you are. The world has no power over you unless, you give it away freely in the form of internalized phobias.


I think it is relevant to this thread because a component of the conflict is that H is not the "average joe" that W thought he was when she married him and that H probably thought he could be or at least "pass" as back when they were getting married.You do understand that we as MtF Crossdressers will never pass as a woman in the eyes of our wives. They will always see through all of the illusion we put forth because they see us as their husbands. So this arguement is completely invalid from my perspective, but i feel that your arguing just to argue.

And my goal here was to help put some positive perspective in the life of a woman who is struggling to come to terms with her husband being TG, not to argue with you over how you quantify societies intolerance for Crossdressers.

Hang in there Mrs. DM, Some of out here are rooting for you two!

-Donni-

[Thera Home]

No. The choice of presentation/adornment, for everyone, is very much a desire to reflect one's socio-economic status and values, whether a person likes to portray him/herself as an academic type, a bohemian type, an athletic type, a relaxed shabby/chic type, a successful business person, etc.


And here I thought that my ragged out shorts, my tshirt with the skull and crossbones, and boots with holes in them may me look cool?
Oh well..............Im comfy:heehee:




So yes, little peace here I'm afraid as my head is thinking about everything. But thanks to everyone who responded here. I know I come across as abrupt and cold but really, if you met me you'd see I'm actually a very warm, fun, and yes ATTRACTIVE girl

Mattie(can I call you that instead?:heehee:)
You know how we guys are. We're all wierd and lame. But, thing is were still the same person you met and married. We just decided to all a little most stress on your life w/o really wanting too...(Duh). We as a team,husband and wife need to help each other out(dealing with one's crap)whenever we can and pull each other through. Your feelings are normal for the situation your in. My wife is still wigging out and sometimes I have to put her on my ignore list if not I'll go insane. BTW,I still deal with her crap also.:D



This is what I get out of this, feel free to correct me. H is a crossdresser, like most of us he doesn't want to be but was born this way. He is not going to quit.

Yes,I think there must be something in the kool aid they sell nowadays:heehee:



Also, we talk about alot more than just CDing.

I hope we see you there.
Presh GG

You're right, these CDers are boring:heehee:
Can I join FAB too?:o
I promise I'll be nice:devil:

:hugs:
Thera

[Jane P]

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate this thread. I don't feel I have anything too terribly useful to add to the conversation ,but have found many of the well articulated views extremely thought provoking.

I am married ,in a DADT relationship ,and I try very hard to keep my not so unique desires to myself. Because we don't talk about it , I am constantly living with this "secret" all by myself , as is my wife . Nothing gets resolved ,nothing gets understood other than it happens.

I don't understand it , but continue to try to . I don't completely accept myself or my feminine desires , but am again trying to . None of it is easy but it's nice to see we are not always alone.

Jonnie

[Cam]

Doormat,
I was wondering if things would be different for you if your situation was the way it is for my wife and I? I do not not try to pass as female, in fact with my bald head and beard I would be a very ugly female. I started out with kilts. A very male garment to be sure. That transitioned into mini skirts when I would get ladies constantly commenting about how jealous they were of my legs. By the way I spent 20 years as a professional ballet dancer and teacher to explain the legs. I started wearing anties because they fit me better than the thick men's briefs, again because of my build from dancing. I don't have or want any dresses or high heals and don't use makeup. I just prefer women's clothing on the bottom half because it fits me better.

If your husband did this the way I do, would it still cause you problems? There is no judgement in my heart here, I'm just curious. Three of my four children don't care about my skirts and my marine son has even gone out to throw darts with me when I ave had a skirt on. My wife is fine with it but won't go out of the yard with me if I am in a skirt while my oldest son doesn't care what I do in my home but prefers that I dress in more "manly" clothing when he and his children are around...yes I do honor his wishes out of respect for him.