Shut down with the honest approach.....

[Diversity]

After my last post where I successfully purchased a skirt, I thought I'd take another step and go shopping to purchase a dress. I went to the mall and saw a dress which looked great and which I also thought would look good on me. So, I bravely walked up the the counter and said to the lady clerk (about my age)., " Hi, I know this may sound strange, but I am a crossdresser, and I saw a dress in your window display, and would like to ask if you would give me some assistance. Would you have this in my size?"
She politely replied, "Oh! Well, to each his own. Sir, I don't believe I can help you. While we don't hold anything against men like you, we really are here to serve women. I'm sorry."
Before I could say another word, a lady customer entered the store and the clerk turned away and went to wait on the other customer.
Oh, well, I thanked her politely as I passed by her on my way out. I don't hold this against her, as I am sure it was a bit of a shock. So, I'll just have to continue my journey, as I would like to take this next step and actually purchase a dress in person. It would also be good to find a CD friendly store for future purchases.
In all honesty, it is exhilarating to muster up the courage and forge ahead with a positive attitude. I will do this!!! Stay tuned....... :)

[Amanda_P]

I would try walmart. I tryed on a couple blouses there and didn't have a problem.

[Diversity]

Thanks Amanda. I appreciate your suggestion and will give Walmart a try in the future!
Di

[Persephone]

What you did is great! Took courage! And you did it!

I'm really surprised at her response. Probably was confused and just didn't know what to do.

You go, girl!

Hugs,
Persephone.

[AllieSF]

I agree with what the others have said. I only recommend that the next time just ask for help and when you have her attention ask her if they have that item in this size. When she shows it to you, then ask where can you try it on. Sometimes a more positive and aggressive (not overly aggressive) approach gets you to a point where the SA has more difficulty saying no. I think she was totally wrong and should have tried to accommodate you. She didn't do anything and that is wrong. By saying you CD right away you gave her an early out. You do not need to overly explain everything. Better muck next time.

[Amanda_Robinson]

No worries. Some other store will be glad to recieve your money :-) ... You also showed great class.

[Joanne f]

Glad to see that you did not get knocked back by her attitude , some are just worried about loosing their regular customers but you will always get the odd anti CDer thankfully I do not think that there are many of those about now .
I have only had this happen to me twice whereas on the other side I have even had them close a changing room to females while I tried a dress on ( I must admit I was a bit (OK a lot) embarrassed when I came out and there was a queue of females waiting to go in :o but as suggested Walmart (ASDA over here) and other stores where you can just walk in is a good idea, if you can't try it on and you really like it as if you can have a refund if it is not suitable as most will offer this ( if not tell them to stick it ) maybe not as that will be putting us in a bad light :devil: :heehee:

[Antoinette]

Well atleast you tried. It's best if you could get your measurements using body tape (i believe its called that) so that next time you could pick up whatever you need with out the trouble.

[I Am Paula]

Don't take a step back. What you did was fine, only the SA had a problem. Just go to another store, it's their loss. I've shopped in person since the seventies, and never ever had that response.

[kimdl93]

I would contact their owner - it seems to me that they are in business to serve customers of all kinds.

[Tracii G]

Had that happen at Victoria's Secret so I will not shop there EVER.

[carhill2mn]

I think the store manager might like to hear how you were treated by an employee.

[ZeeRay]

Wow, I applaued your courage. And more so on how you handled and very depressing ordeal. Best of luck of your next outing. Keep us informed.

[franlee]

I agree with Kim and Carole 100%, this economy is not the time for a SA to pull such a asinine stunt. The only thing I will say though is you didn't owe her an explaination to begin with. I can respect your candar but it aint none of her buusiness if the dress is or me, my wife or dogs bed. I think my money is just as green regardless and I sure aint looking for her approvial. But then again I'm getting a lot more self opinionated and confident in my old age.

[Stephanie47]

I went back and read you and your wife have been married thirty years. I'd venture to say you're fifty plus. I think I would not have the guts to go up to a SA and tell her I'm a cross dresser. I would recommend checking labels and locating the dress on a website. Most of us can pretty much figure out the sizes. Order it on line. If the store is part of a chain try going to another store.

If the store is part of a chain I would also file a complaint with their headquarters. If the store is independently owned and operated and state and local law does not offer you protection as a cross dresser, there is really nothing you can do about it.

[Jorja]

Brave of you to be honest with the SA. You don't say where you live but if there is a Macy's in your area go there. I have never had a problem with them in 30 years of dress buying.

[UNDERDRESSER]

I think you just startled her, I bet the owner of the store wouldn't approve of her response.

Tracii, i though VS had a policy against that sort of thing? maybe you should complain, if it wasn't too long ago?

[Stephenie S]

So, did you do anything wrong? No, of course you didn't.

BUT, don't ever announce yourself that way. You don't want to ask if you can spend some money in a store. You want to tell them you want to spend some money in their store.

"I want to buy this dress in a size that will fit me."

Wishy-washy crossdressers often get the reaction that you did.

And don't ever be intimidated by another shopper. Your response to the other shopper should have been, "I'm sorry, but she is still helping me."

I know this is a lot of info for a novice to swallow, but I am only pointing out the right way to shop. Remember that you have every right to buy whatever you want to buy, whenever you want, and where ever you want. This is the US after all, right?

That SA was horribly impolite. What a "B", huh? Don't be intimidated. Maybe you should go back and scold her. At the least, call the store owner. But don't ever ask if you can shop somewhere. Of course you can. Just shop.

Stephie

[Amy R Lynn]

Bravo! That did take a lot of courage to do. Be proud. Its the SA that has the problem. I agree they could have handled it much better.

Tracii, I love VS. I have never had a problem there. I have tried on several bra's in their fitting rooms, and even had a SA help adjust them for me. They have a policy just for us. We are supossed to be very welcomed there. I always have been. If it wasn't that long ago, I would write to the company and let them know what store it was and if you remember the SA name. Sounds like they need some diversity training. While I can't imagine we make them lots of money, I'm pretty sure we make them some nice change.

[RADER]

I would contact their owner - it seems to me that they are in business to serve customers of all kinds.

Yes, I would be the first to ask the owner's of the store why my money was no good in their establishment.
I bet you would get a big discount next time you walk in.
Rader

[Diversity]

Wow! Thank you all for your replies. I am very appreciative for the time you all took. My next plan is to refrain from openly stating I am a CD'r. I did this, out of what I thought was a courtesy to the SA, in an attempt to alleviate any uncomfortableness she might have felt. However, this clearly backfired on me. So no more of this. You are quite right that I need to ask for something in my size and then ask where I might try the dress on.
I won't complain about the SA, as this is negative energy and I don't want to waste my time with it. Let them solve their own issues (without my help), and wonder why their sales are down at the end of the year.
Again thank you all. I am going to make this a 'fun' shopping experience for me and will gain another weave of inner strength from it, so I can be more comfortable at future shopping outings.
Also - bra fitting assistance at Victoria's Secret??? Now that takes REAL COURAGE!! I applaud you, Amy! Some day I'll get there, but for now it is one step at a time...
All the best to you all,
Di

[5150 Girl]

I'd write the company. Corrent me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they can leagaly deny you service based on gender

[crunchysoda]

No worries. Some other store will be glad to recieve your money :-) ... You also showed great class.

I agree and wow that took guts!

I think if I was the assistant I would be taken aback but Id help them.
Id be too shocked to do anything else really.

I find her response weird, they are there to sell clothes, it shouldnt matter who or why they are selling them. That's just silly. Money is money!

I never ask for help, I find SA's really annoying myself.

[Karren H]

I'd be sending that store an email so quickly.... letting them know their SAs are turning away customers....

[shayleetv]

You may feel that complaining to management is negative energy, but you are very much wrong. Complaining is how things are changed, you know the squeaky wheel analogy. You are not doing it for yourself but for all of us who may find ourselves in the same situation because it was not rectified. The reason this forum was created was to find help, hope and solace in what we are. If we don't help each other, who is? Like Ben Franklin said "God helps those who help themselves." So get with the helping.

[Jenny Doolittle]

That has happened to me just one time, and really it was the store policy not that of the sales asst. What I did was to make a point to NEVER shop in that or any of their other stores. If they are too good to treat me as a person with money, and a human being for that matter, then they don't deserve any of it!

[StephineUK]

You may feel that complaining to management is negative energy, but you are very much wrong. Complaining is how things are changed, you know the squeaky wheel analogy. You are not doing it for yourself but for all of us who may find ourselves in the same situation because it was not rectified. The reason this forum was created was to find help, hope and solace in what we are. If we don't help each other, who is? Like Ben Franklin said "God helps those who help themselves." So get with the helping.

it is clear discrimination ... if that happend to me i would not be happy and deffo take it up with management and make a complaint about the SA.

high st stores should have staff training on how to deal with transgenders..!!

there is a chain of shops here that are very TG frendly and i have been treated very good by them , also i posted customer feedback on there website to let them know as i think thats inportant..

[ColleenA]

One time my SO and I were shopping at Frederick's. We were looking mostly for her, but I found something appealing. I asked the SA if my SO could come into the dressing room as I tried it on. She said store policy was that two people could not go in together, but I was free to go in and try it on myself. I did, but when I came out, the SA apparently had gone into the back and gotten her co-workers, since all three of them were at the register staring at me as I exited.

I will never go back to that store.

[Lillyasia]

Diversity, Sorry to hear something like that happening to you. I read your post about buying the skirt and liked it. I'm sure it was an inspiration for some to forge ahead.

Getting bad treatment is something we all dread. Maybe this was your one and only time and you got it out of the way early so it will never happen to ya again?? And you did good by being polite in the face of stupidity. It's their loss. You should have held the wad of cash up as you walked out the door. I keep a $100 dollar bill in my wallet for that sometimes.

Think how great your next shopping experience will be because anything, including self-checkout, will be better compared to this.

[heatherdress]

. I suggest that you think about buying your clothes on line. It is so easy. Macy's, Amazon, etc. They all permit returns. Once you know your size, just shop on line and try on your clothes and shoes at home.

[Erica2Sweet]

As long as it does not violate this site's rules, I'd love to know the name of the store. As far as my wife and I are concerned, we want to be sure we avoid them in terms of giving them our business.

Sorry to hear this happened to you. In this day in age, it should never have happened at all.

While I'm NOT a legal expert, it's highly likely you have grounds for a lawsuit...

[bridget thronton]

Next time I bet things go well for you - perhaps a different clerk or different store

[KateSpade83]

Next time you go shopping know your breast size in forms, your belly waist measurement, and your waist measurement. Then when you buy clothes measure them for these measurements with a tape measure and you'll know if it fits. I did this many times for buying a lot of different types of women's clothes. And meaurements is how you buy stuff on ebay, too.

She really discriminated against you.

[BLUE ORCHID]

It sounds as though the SA wasn't on commision.

[Sara Jessica]

" Hi, I know this may sound strange, but I am a crossdresser, and I saw a dress in your window display, and would like to ask if you would give me some assistance. Would you have this in my size?"

This is why I hate the concept of asking permission to spend money in a store. That is pretty much what you did and even worse, you did so in person and you gave the SA a total out to reject you.


She politely replied, "Oh! Well, to each his own. Sir, I don't believe I can help you. While we don't hold anything against men like you, we really are here to serve women. I'm sorry."

"Oh but we do hold everything against men like you" is exactly what she was saying. But hey, at least she was polite about it.

My solution is always to own it and completely avoid the creepy factor. In all fairness, going to the counter and proclaiming yourself as a CD'er, you really could have predicted the result. Better luck next time.

[PretzelGirl]

For the few, a private store is just that. They can do what they want. Their risk is losing business. If you have any doubt, just think about the Chick-Fil-A mess. They made a statement and their risk was losing business. They didn't get sued and the government didn't shut them down.

What you do with these people is talk with the almighty dollar.

[Leah Lynn]

Good for you! Just try another store, because it is an absolutely fantastic feeling to purchase that first dress of your own! And even better feeling the first time you wear it!

[CindySTJ]

I think the problem was the approach as well. I shop at all kinds of stores and womans stores and have never had a problem with a purchase. Sometimes I get better service then at others but I buy what I want, ask for my size and expect the same respect as any other person in the store. It helps that I am much more polite and easier to work with the a lot of the GG's that can be rude and demanding when they are shopping. Most of the time they ask if I am shopping for myself long before I even say anything. I don't try on things unless they suggest it because I figure I can just bring it back if I want. Hope this helps..Just go in and shop like you mean it and have fun.

[Leslie Langford]

Wow! Thank you all for your replies. I am very appreciative for the time you all took. My next plan is to refrain from openly stating I am a CD'r. I did this, out of what I thought was a courtesy to the SA, in an attempt to alleviate any uncomfortableness she might have felt. However, this clearly backfired on me. So no more of this. You are quite right that I need to ask for something in my size and then ask where I might try the dress on.
I won't complain about the SA, as this is negative energy and I don't want to waste my time with it. Let them solve their own issues (without my help), and wonder why their sales are down at the end of the year.
Again thank you all. I am going to make this a 'fun' shopping experience for me and will gain another weave of inner strength from it, so I can be more comfortable at future shopping outings.
Also - bra fitting assistance at Victoria's Secret??? Now that takes REAL COURAGE!! I applaud you, Amy! Some day I'll get there, but for now it is one step at a time...
All the best to you all,
Di

I'm of two minds here, Diversity.

On one hand, I understand fully where you were coming from in this instance, and that you were more concerned with the SA's comfort level than your own when announcing so openly that you were a crossdresser. Very noble and selfless of you, and probably the approach I would have also taken 10 or 15 years ago if I had been out and about back then.

In those days, the visibility of crossdressers in public was far lower, much less was known about them, and yes - encountering one in person would likely have freaked out the average SA who had never come across one before. So yes, I would have been very cognizant of that fact and been concerned about her feelings as well. Remember, too, that this was back in the days before gay marriages were a fact of life, the repeal of DADT in the US military had not yet happened, and Ellen deGeneres, Rosie O'Donnell, Melissa Etheridge, Jodie Foster, Anderson Cooper, Ian McKellen, Neil Patrick Harris, and Clay Aiken et al were still deep inside the closet. More to the point, there was not yet a "T" in "LGBT".

But that was then, and this is now. There has since been an absolute explosion in media coverage in recent years when it comes to gay, lesbian. bisexual, and transgendered issues. If anything, we transgendered folk are the final frontier when it comes to claiming our inalienable right to "be", since the others in our extended family have already won their battle for acceptance. Not only that, we have actually become an object of curiosity for that very reason, and even hold-outs like Dr. Phil have finally seen the light and are now able to feel some empathy for us as opposed to treating us with derision.

To that end, while it was very laudable that you tried to put the SA at ease about your situation, it really wasn't necessary because - unless someone is living under a rock or in a cave these days - they must surely know what a crossdresser is and that we are fundamentally just like everyone else in all other respects. They would also realize that they have nothing to fear from us, even if they haven't met one of us in person yet.

So, for the SA to have been taken slightly aback - that is one thing. To then refuse to serve you, however - that is a whole different matter. This is no more acceptable than refusing to serve someone because they are black, Hispanic, Asian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Catholic, etc. - or even a Goth or Mohawk-sporting, pierced mixed martial arts champion, for that matter. What she engaged in here was discrimination, pure and simple, and if that approach wouldn't fly with some of the other groups that I have mentioned here, it certainly shouldn't fly with us transgendered folk - especially when we are so willing to spend our hard-earned money in their establishments.

So yes, Diversity, I would have made some noise about this and taken it to a higher level to get proper resolution. That said, this matter still could have been handled professionally and courteously even by escalating it, and if anything - you would have done the SA a favor by making this into a teachable moment for her.

It would also have shown solidarity with our community and sent a clear signal that we have the same right to exist and conduct our business in public as anyone else.

I see this as a lost opportunity for one of our group to have asserted herself and taken a stand for our community. But you also clearly recognize this, Diversity, and will likely not repeat the same error the next time such a situation arises.

But most important of all, don't let this episode throw you. Get back in the saddle, continue to go out and about to your heart's content, and don't shy away from insisting on your right to be treated just like any other GG when doing so.

[Beverley Sims]

I usually have interesting interactions with sa's with an approach along similar lines.

[Jamie001]

Yes, I would be the first to ask the owner's of the store why my money was no good in their establishment.
I bet you would get a big discount next time you walk in.
Rader

I agree with this approach. Your money is as good an anyone's money. What happened to you is discrimination. I would first approach the store owner, and if you don't get any satisfaction, you should take it to the ACLU. Folks need to learn that it's improper and illegal to discriminate.

[Diversity]

Again, I wish to thank everyone for sharing their views. I have taken in everyone's comments, and yes, I could have made a big issue out of this, but in all honesty, it took a lot for me to even go in and ask for assistance with a dress I was interested in. As many of you know, I am very new to this, and this was a challenge in itself for me. I felt, at the time, making an issue would may have escalated into something even more embarrassing for me, in front of another female customer.
Experiences of shopping are helping me to gain the confidence that many of you have already gained as you are 'seasoned professionals'. I am just a 'grasshopper', and am feeling my way and am growing within.
So, I expect to make mistakes along the way. The important part for me is that I am determined to grow in this regard, and in time will become more seasoned and 'quicker of wit', when unexpected circumstances arise. My confidence will build and in a short time, I will be much stronger. Everyone of you gave me something to reflect upon, consider alternatives, and pats on the back. Thank you very much for giving me your time and thoughts. This is the very essence of this forum, and I applaud you all.
Kind regards,
Di

[linda allen]

................ it's highly likely you have grounds for a lawsuit...

I don't think there are grounds for a lawsuit. I also don't think everything can or should be settled with a lawsuit.

I think the next step should have been to ask to see the manager. Tell the manager that the clerk refused to help and see what she or he has to say about the situation.

If there's no satisfaction, then if it's a chain store, a letter of complaint to the store's main office would be next with a copy to the store manager. If it's a "mom and pop" store, mom or pop should be contacted.

If having the dress is more important than making a point, go back and find a clerk and tell her you want to buy the dress for your wife. Know in advance what size you wear. Buy it (use a credit card), take it home and try it on. If it doesn't fit or you just don't like how it looks on you, return it for a different size or a refund.

[Paula_56]

Not the out come you wanted but, if this is the worst that can happen, then so what, Fashion Bug, Lane Bryant, Dress barn are favorties of our community and I never heard of an incident like this.

It great to be honest, she holds no power over you

[linda allen]

.......... What happened to you is discrimination. I would first approach the store owner, and if you don't get any satisfaction, you should take it to the ACLU. Folks need to learn that it's improper and illegal to discriminate.

Discrimination in one's mind and discrimination in the eyes of the law are two different things. There are many legal reasons a business can decline to serve a segment of the population. My wife belongs to a "women only" gym. I seriously doubt they are discriminating against me in the eyes of the law if they refuse to let me join. There cannot be a "white people only" gym, but there can be a "women only "gym. Retirement communities are often open only to people above a certain age. That's not discrimination, it's a policy in place to provide peace and quiet for the residents. It's legal.

Bars can legally deny entry to people younger than the legal drinking age in that community even if they say they will not purchase alcohol.

[sterling12]

Judging her comments, I think she might have been warned to be polite to ALL Customers. And, I think it's quite possible that she has already received training or memo's involving The Treatment of Transpersons. Although courteous, at the same time she was sticking it in your ear, and doing a polite "Put Down."

I don't think her Supervisor, The Manager, Store owner, and The Parent Company, have this in mind as a normal response to Trans People. In fact, I'm sure they would like to hear about your encounter! I realize that it's a further step, and you are new to shopping. It will take a lot of courage to "speak up," and to do so politely. But, think of The Same happening to another Sister? Do you want her to have to deal with some person with a superior attitude, and smooth enough to make such an occurrence seem even worse than direct aggression?

I think The Point is that she discriminated against you! Even if subtle, and done in a courteous manner she probably broke a Company Policy to treat all customers properly. She didn't even try to help you, just said: "I don't think we can help you, and then turned away and "dismissed" you. Reine, and some of our GG's would probably know for sure, but I think that was a snotty little Put Down, and she did it deliberately!

My Advise is make an effort to let someone higher up know about this. I think you might be pleasantly surprised by their feed-back.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[VeronicaMoonlit]

This is why I hate the concept of asking permission to spend money in a store. That is pretty much what you did and even worse, you did so in person and you gave the SA a total out to reject you.

Right, never "ask" for permission, your money is as good as anyone elses.




But that was then, and this is now.

To that end, while it was very laudable that you tried to put the SA at ease about your situation, it really wasn't necessary because - unless someone is living under a rock or in a cave these days - they must surely know what a crossdresser is and that we are fundamentally just like everyone else in all other respects.

Exactly, and some are even told about about us in their training. As an aside Lane Bryant SA's are VERY good at spotting transfolks in guy mode. I've seen them give me that "ooh, a transperson in guy mode" look within seconds of walking in, before they say, "if you need a changing room let me know."


So, for the SA to have been taken slightly aback - that is one thing. To then refuse to serve you, however - that is a whole different matter. What she engaged in here was discrimination, pure and simple, and if that approach wouldn't fly with some of the other groups that I have mentioned here, it certainly shouldn't fly with us transgendered folk - especially when we are so willing to spend our hard-earned money in their establishments.

And depending on store, it might even be against corporate policy, besides being illegal in some locales.


So yes, Diversity, I would have made some noise about this and taken it to a higher level to get proper resolution. That said, this matter still could have been handled professionally and courteously even by escalating it, and if anything - you would have done the SA a favor by making this into a teachable moment for her.

Indeed.


I see this as a lost opportunity for one of our group to have asserted herself and taken a stand for our community. But you also clearly recognize this, Diversity, and will likely not repeat the same error the next time such a situation arises.

Right, don't "ask" for permission to shop....just shop.


But most important of all, don't let this episode throw you. Get back in the saddle, continue to go out and about to your heart's content, and don't shy away from insisting on your right to be treated just like any other GG when doing so.

Exactly, it was just one clueless SA (who might have been given a stern lecture if she told her manager about the crossdresser she turned away)

Veronica