HONESTY......Does it have to be brutal?

[Inna]

I often speak here of ideas, ideals, experience and life I was simply so eager to embrace I could not have waited another minute once I realized how deep my denial and fears were.

Often using generalizations to describe what I tend to feel could have been a core phenomena within chemistry of Gender Disphoric individuals, but I often receive back, angered and guarded responses from many, yet not all.
My delivery is often direct, as there simply is nothing to hide anymore, nor be sufficiently poised for any one particular.

These life experiences are honest, and illustrate the world through eyes of a newly found freedom, acceptance and yes, total immersion into a life of a woman.

Though ecstatic and joyful in the life I had an audacity to dream about, I remember not long ago how dreadful and painful my quest to serenity of being true self really was.
Honesty of the world around me was simply brutal. My need to be accepted, which by the way was deeper then my strength to hold my own in angry stance of rejecting any negative connotation, kept forcing my way forward.
I was shaped by the desire of finality of transition, at least finality of visual transition as I have doubts there really is a finality to understanding Self in totality.

I often here, state brutal realities I have lived through, based on the essence of my own experience, and understand that such may not apply to all, but certainly apply to some.
Yet lately I feel drift of current taking me into a realm of being gravely misunderstood. As before I was surrounded by pain and sorrow and connected on that level, now I am joyful despite life being life, and this time around speak of issues involving my newly found strength in self. Am I to sure and too full of my self to be helpful?

Perhaps, but this is what I was taking this whole journey upon my own shoulders for, this is a place of arrival, feeling whole and strong in who I am!

All my love, despite the spikes :eek: Inna :battingeyelashes:

[STACY B]

One thing ,,,Why is it that when we all first start everyone wants to know that Dirty little secrete ? An we try an try to hide it an don't want to tell an Deny Deny Deny ? You wear womans clothes ? NO !! Yes you do ,,,,NO I don't,,,, Then all the people that are close to you kinda hold you Hostage with the secrete ? But Ya ever Notice when you Finaly accept it after YEARS of denial then No one want's you to say Nothing ,,That's the funny part ,,Ohhhhhhh I'm alrite with it now ,,An will tell an won't run anymore ,,Now since you can talk about it openly it's once again Taboo ? It;s like ohhhhhhh Crap He's gonna tell them an I have to deal with that now ? What's your thoughts ?

[Inna]

One thing ,,,Why is it that when we all first start everyone wants to know that Dirty little secrete ? An we try an try to hide it an don't want to tell an Deny Deny Deny ? You wear womans clothes ? NO !! Yes you do ,,,,NO I don't,,,, Then all the people that are close to you kinda hold you Hostage with the secrete ? But Ya ever Notice when you Finaly accept it after YEARS of denial then No one want's you to say Nothing ,,That's the funny part ,,Ohhhhhhh I'm alrite with it now ,,An will tell an won't run anymore ,,Now since you can talk about it openly it's once again Taboo ? It;s like ohhhhhhh Crap He's gonna tell them an I have to deal with that now ? What's your thoughts ?

Thanks Stacy, however you have missed my point, LOL, I am talking about this community and not people immediately around me, but I understand as you may not know me that close....but your point is nevertheless valid!

[STACY B]

Yea I didn't mean to change the subject ,, I was just thinking out loud an it was on my mind an the thread was fairly close ,,,So I jumped ,,Wanted to get a prospective from a VET !!!

[Marleena]

Interesting post Inna.:) If you're talking about brutal honesty I think at times it might be a wakeup call that we need. It could be a brutally honest comment on a picture we post or a reality check when we are a little to naive on what is to come. While finally moving into womanhood some TS women are not seeing clearly because they are wrapped up in the excitement.

There are a couple of posters here that say everything is so wonderful for them when they are only part way through the transition process. Becoming a woman is a long drawn out process and there will be setbacks that one must be aware of. SRS isn't the end either. Everybody must be prepared for setbacks and disappointments for possibly years after being postop. I think a reality check is a good thing to keep it real for us IMHO.

[Kaz]

Hi Inna,

I have got to know you over the last few years and have seen you change (well not 'see' exactly... but you get my drift!?)... we have social capital in the bank us two and I will always be one of your admirers (in terms of what you have accomplished) and supporters (in terms of what you do next). So spike away girlfriend! There is nothing that you could ever say to me that will change the way I feel about you. :)

BUT! I must say that I have observed those of you who go the whole way do change personality at various times and become down right aggressive to people who are trying to be your friends! Not just you... and you know who else! To newcomers that can seem scary! It did to me when I joined here a few years ago.

You go through a tough time and we all love you. So for me the spikes aren't an issue... I just want to see it all work out for you. But be aware that the spikes will hit some people hard... they don't have to have as tough a skin as you girl! :hugs:

Love you to bits.. always will... :hugs:

Kaz xx

[Tracii G]

Inna I have read you posts for a long time and I'm always interested in what you have to say.
What you have endured both good and bad thru all of your transition.
I wish I had the guts to do what you have it has to have been hard.
Honesty sometimes puts people off but at least they know where you stand and I for one love that about you.

[Marleena]

I have no idea if I answered correctly, but It's okay to enjoy being who you're supposed to be. I should also add the girls here are very supportive. If I'm feeling down or struggling they'll help me feel better. I got a cyberslap yesterday and it was just what I needed.:)

[Kate Simmons]

Inna, you are a strong person and you are a spiritual person but, perhaps best of all, you are your own person and I, for one, admire that. Your conviction has made you an outstanding individual, both in the world at large and here on the Forum. Never doubt that for a moment. You are an inspiration to many many of us here as it shows us that with perseverance, we can attain our goals whatever they may be. One thing remains to be said: "Carry on my friend, carry on." :hugs::)

[CharleneT]

sorry for the short answer, little time today:

"does it have to be brutal ?"

Yes

[kellycan27]

Honesty works both ways.. Give it and you are going to get it back. I say.. if one can't take the heat.. they should stay out of the kitchen... to be quite honest. There is "support" and there's the "real world" and I think that you might be finding out that the real world can be brutal.

[Momarie]

Personally, I learn a lot from what you have to share.

And I admire the way you deliver it...as opposed to the attention seeking, cotton-candy-for-the-mind, verbal vomit, pretty-poetic-prose where someone writes as they imagine a woman would...complete with femme fonts.

You are direct and honest.
And you have the amazing ability to tap into heartfelt, gut-wrenching emotions and express them without blame or self-pity.

[elizabethamy]

When you're new here, there's a certain bluntness and toughness -- you call it "spikes" -- that is a little startling and even scary. People talk about how hard it is, about almost killing themselves, about losing their families and their houses, etc. Takes whatever "pink fog" romanticism one might have right out of the picture! It takes a little bit to adjust to that harshness but it's necessary if you really want to look in the mirror and face this issue without flinching.

So let us have it, Inna. Then send flowers.

elizabethamy

[Nigella]

Not quite sure if we have had our "run ins", I suspect we have, but one issue that always comes to mind is how an individual reads a post. Another is how some appear to "know it all" and take delight in trying to put down newly discovering TSs.

People need the feel good factor of things going right for them, they don't want to listen to the doomsayers, they honestly believe that the road is smooth and no sideturns.

[AllieSF]

If I understand correctly your point: You being brutally honest in your sometimes poetic way and then getting someone else's brutal honesty in return is not always to your liking. I truly appreciate all that you have been through, are going through and still have to go through. When you start a thread, a lot of people know more or less who you are and what you have been through. Some do not. I cannot really comment on certain details of transitioning, however, I can comment on those things, comments, questions where my life experience may result in a decent response in a thread. That being said and this being a fairly wide open Forum, people, me included sometimes, will take exception to what someone says if we think that they may be over emphasizing something, making a bigger issue about something that may not be that big, over generalize some comment, or whatever else that may motivate someone to respond to a post. I know that I have done that a couple of times recently to what you had written. My responses are not meant to belittle you ar the process, level of effort, nor the emotional toll all this may have on you. It is meant to clarify or adjust what you had written from my point of view.

So, as you go through all this emotional roller coaster of transitioning, please understand that we all, at least the vast majority of us, are definitely on your side and wish only the best successes for you along the way. Translated: We love you for who you are and not necessarily for the words you write. As Kelly said, be ready for the heat in the kitchen, especially when you are doing the cooking.

[Jorja]

We as Transsexuals need to spend some time being brutally honest with ourselves during each step of our transition. Otherwise, we probably won't be able to move past this massive stumbling block until we really and completely dispel all self-deception and come to a place of crystal clear awakening that will jolt us onto the track and keep us on it. We have to peer into ourselves in great detail and perform an honest self-inventory.

During any given day, we lie to ourselves hundreds of times. Be it about our clothing or style, if its how we dealt with someone, or how much money we spent. We lie constantly to ourselves. Making the type of changes we need to make in transition, we can ill afford a lie. You have to think through every action to ensure that its an act of truth, that you are doing it because its the right thing to do, that what you are doing matters. Think about that for a second. You cannot lie to anyone, including yourself.

So the question remains, Does honesty have to be so brutal? Yes, it does.

[LeaP]

Inna,

I had to read your OP several times to try to figure out what you were trying to say. I'm still not entirely sure that I have it right, but let me parse it out.

First, to summarize: you said your need to be accepted was the force behind your press forward, even though the brutality of the discourse made it difficult. You went on to say that despite best efforts, your posts have often been misunderstood and received angry responses, partially because you like to use generalizations. This has become worse lately, leading you to question whether you are too full of yourself to be helpful any longer. Is this right?

As with several other responders, I see the need for - and value - hard reality. Some perceive that in itself as brutal. I do not. Granted, some people could be of more diplomatic at times in their delivery, but honestly, I don't see that as a problem except at the margins and with a few individuals.

Your point about misunderstandings is a different issue than the hard realities theme. To the extent that the problem you are having with that is about generalization, just toss in a few caveats. I see you've been doing that lately anyway. Problem solved. To the extent it's about other people being thin-skinned, there's nothing you can do about that, so forget it. Some of your posts are hard to understand though, Inna, and you're probably going to have to live with a certain degree of misunderstanding from that alone.

For what it's worth, I have absolutely no perception of you as being too full of yourself. And I think you are very helpful. Your joy is infectious. Your troubles are related honestly. There are themes you consistently bring up which intrigue me, particularly the experience of an increase in love. I'm experiencing something like that myself as I start to reconnect with the world. Plus, you got me on a diet. Yours.

[KellyJameson]

For me Jorja's words ring true, brutal honesty takes you where you need to go and keeps you there afterward.

[Bree-asaurus]

We as Transsexuals need to spend some time being brutally honest with ourselves during each step of our transition. Otherwise, we probably won't be able to move past this massive stumbling block until we really and completely dispel all self-deception and come to a place of crystal clear awakening that will jolt us onto the track and keep us on it. We have to peer into ourselves in great detail and perform an honest self-inventory.

During any given day, we lie to ourselves hundreds of times. Be it about our clothing or style, if its how we dealt with someone, or how much money we spent. We lie constantly to ourselves. Making the type of changes we need to make in transition, we can ill afford a lie. You have to think through every action to ensure that its an act of truth, that you are doing it because its the right thing to do, that what you are doing matters. Think about that for a second. You cannot lie to anyone, including yourself.

So the question remains, Does honesty have to be so brutal? Yes, it does.

I'm with Jorja.

I prefer honesty, "brutal" or not. It's not being hateful or angry, it's just not walking on eggshells and sugarcoating. Skip the bull and give it to me straight!

If you can't handle the truth, let alone deal with criticism or the fact that not everyone is going to be as sweet and nice to you as you'd like, that's too bad. You do have a say in how much you let other people's words affect you.

[Melody Moore]

I'm with Jorja.

I prefer honesty, "brutal" or not. It's not being hateful or angry, it's just not walking on eggshells and sugarcoating. Skip the bull and give it to me straight!

If you can't handle the truth, let alone deal with criticism or the fact that not everyone is going to be as sweet and nice to you as you'd like, that's too bad. You do have a say in how much you let other people's words affect you.
I couldn't agree more. I also find some people in the trans community often come to me looking for answers or
solutions to their issues, but then they get all butt-hurt and deeply offended when you explain to them how you
dealt with the same or similar type of issues because it is a simple case of you, not telling them what they want
to hear, but what they need to hear. But I say, If you can't stand the heat, get the hell out of the kitchen!
Because at the end of the day there are a lot more really arrogant & bad people they will come across in the
real world they will have to deal with. So I think those that can handle brutal truth & honesty will handle all
the issues that comes with transition a lot better, and those that can't handle it should forget the whole idea.

[Kerstin]

More often that not, people I've experienced who like to adopt a "I tell it like it is" personality are using it to excuse their bullying behaviour and complete lack of tact.

[morgan51]

It was easy to be drawn into the pink fog of transition . The realities of transition hit pretty hard when I am faced with them first hand. For me being ready to lose everything is a reality today and not what I envisioned at the start. I am loosing pretty much all in my life as I knew it . Family relationship etc. it seems to go on and on and change each week as I go foward. Still its what I must do to be true to myself at last. I'm truly grateful for the blessings I still receive by being myself. A sense of worth and the knowlege I'm finally becomming whole and peaceful with me! Inna you give me strength and hope as I go thru transition Thankyou. Morgan

[Jorja]

It was easy to be drawn into the pink fog of transition . The realities of transition hit pretty hard when I am faced with them first hand. For me being ready to lose everything is a reality today and not what I envisioned at the start. I am loosing pretty much all in my life as I knew it . Family relationship etc. it seems to go on and on and change each week as I go foward. Still its what I must do to be true to myself at last. I'm truly grateful for the blessings I still receive by being myself. A sense of worth and the knowlege I'm finally becomming whole and peaceful with me! Inna you give me strength and hope as I go thru transition Thankyou. Morgan

You may feel sad that you are losing your life as you knew it but you are moving toward a new life. That new life can suck or be great. You are the Master of your universe. Only you can control the outcome. Make it happen.

[Bree-asaurus]

Counselling/psychotherapy is usually conducted in a way that is sensitive to the patient/client, for after all, many if not most seeking this help are fragile. That is the right way of doing things.

I would add a qualifier to those who say that if you can't take brutal honesty, don't seek help, etc.,or get in the situation in the first place. I would modify that by saying, in that case avoid peer/public group therapy like that offered by self-appointed advisors on web sites, or in such similar things as goup therapy or psychodrama. Of course this is not practical advice, because you do not know how brutal the honesty will be in advance, or exactly how vulnerable you are.

Caveat emptor, et cetera. What can a person do? The tradeoffs among alternatives are themselves brutal.

My therapist is awesome. He is very sensitive, but he also gets to the point. He knows me and will verbally kick my butt and I welcome it! But I'm sure tons of therapists are too nice... Oh and don't get me started on "life coaches" :P

[Marleena]

IDK I think it depend on one's own definition of brutal. I don't think there any "brutal" posters left here. The only brutal one I know was banned some months ago. Everything she posted seemed like it was brutal to me.:D

[Badtranny]

I don't think there any "brutal" posters left here.

Ahem.

I'll have you know that I happen to be roundly disliked for my brand of brutal honesty thank you. ;-)

[Marleena]

Ahem.

I'll have you know that I happen to be roundly disliked for my brand of brutal honesty thank you. ;-)

Ooops, my bad! Your brutality is duly noted for future reference.:)

[Kathryn Martin]

The truth is always brutal. It leaves no room for prevarication and beating around the bush. It strikes, if advanced always at the heart of whatever matter it addresses. And more often than not it hurts.

In a forum in which people want information about transsexualism and transition putting a pink light on things is, in my view, completely contrary for what people come here for. Support at this stage in a persons life must be hard questions and answers. The issues we have to deal with demand that we do not ever mistake support for placating people or letting them believe that we see them any more or less than they are. For instance in various places here people post pictures and never does anyone give an honest assessment of what they think. In transition unless someone is truthful and honest about our appearance how can we learn.

This is one example. When someone asks if they are transsexual, we should be asking why they believe they are. And when we get an answer we must assess against our own experience and knowledge (most of us do incessant research into this topic) if we think that is true. How about asking the questions that the person should be asking rather than simply empathizing and tell our own story. We do a disservice to others if we fail in this. One of the worst things that can happen is, when you attend a support group and you get literally sucked in, then herded along a path which may not likely be your own, then spit out to live the misery. I have seen this time and again.

Yes, we must be brutally honest with ourselves as Jorja said and with each other.

[LeaP]

Yes and yes again, Kathryn.

People need to distinguish honesty and directness from cruelty. And I agree on the false support point also.

[CharleneT]

I am with Kathryn on this one. I think -especially early on- I was way too "pink". I've been thru a lot of what we call "transition" now and I am most definitely much slower to raise the "you go girl" flag. Sure, as a place for support we should be circling the wagons. The world in general is against us. Still .... I think there are a lot of people with a lot of gender issues, that may think they are TS - but who are not. How can we tell thru this form of communication ? Barely if at all is my answer.

I completely fear encouraging them to transition. I have known one person who went thru the whole process only to realize at the other side it was a mistake. She's fine, but that is nothing but luck. It could be a disaster of epic size for her.

Just for the record, she is most definitely "brutal" in her honesty now and also complete in her support ( but does not involve herself here ).

Honesty, at its most basic is often something that could be called "brutal". I'd rather get honesty than blind support.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I agree ..huge huge difference between honesty and cruelty.


However, and its a big however, its not up to me whether a person gets something out of a group. It's not up to me to try to figure out in advance if sincerely sharing truthful experience will hurt or help a person...that's up to the person
Dishonest comments have the same potential to hurt as honest comments.

People need to take responsibilty for their own lives, and its up to each individual to best manage their quality of life. This includes parsing through a huge amount of advice, solicited and unsolicited.

For the person trying to learn, it is a waste to just listen to what others did without applying that experience to their own situation.

For ts people, without brutal SELF honesty, improving your quality of life is close to impossible (Especially if the "bell is rung")...

Being able to coldly look at your situation, and assess your situation without all the baggage you've created for yourself is a learned skill, and the best teachers are other transsexuals that have done it themselves..

[LeaP]

There is a time for truth telling, and a time to hold your tongue, in the interests of sociability.

...

How about entertaining the idea of trying more subtle alternatives, for example, of just being real yourself, and by this role modelling a cooler, more laid-back and critical approach to your own transition, maybe even one leavened with a sense of humour. Is it our job to do a crude triage in the manner of gate-keepers, forcing newbies to run the gauntlet of our ill-humour, rather than letting them find out, in counseling where they are really at?

This is not a social group. Certainly not primarily.

I am absolutely baffled at how you got what you said in your last paragraph from what Kathryn wrote. More particularly as you couldn't have responded to someone who is more levelheaded or critical (in the right way) of her own transition. Nor does she use humor inappropriately.

My primary interest, though, is in your last statement – that counseling is where it's at. I'm the last to denigrate counseling. I'm in counseling, I often recommend it, and I have strong opinions about it. One of those opinions is that it's not in counseling that one finds one's identity. Any competent gender therapist will tell you that support groups and support forums have revolutionized the way that transsexuals and gender variant people deal with their issues.

My first assignments in therapy were reading. Specifically, I was asked to read books written about and by trans people, looking for similarities and patterns and relationships to my own life. As I discussed these with my therapist, I was repeatedly challenged by her on both similarities and differences. "Why ... but you just said ... That doesn't make sense ... I know what you think, how do you feel ... What was going on when that happened ... Doesn't everyone feel that way sometimes ... Etc." In other words, connecting with other transsexuals (the reading) and then going through the gauntlet, as you so colorfully put it. Hmm - sounds rather like a lot of the forum interaction.

She is also as direct as an arrow to the heart. I've been told (forcefully advised, really) on what needs focus first, to parse out issues and co-morbid conditions to clarify gender issues, to take my time, and more. She has asked me to do a number of things that have been very difficult. She deferred me from getting ahead of myself and actually refused certain topics until others had been dealt with. She has absolutely hammered me on the topic of reality as it relates to transition, including rigorous, thoughtful preparation. Hmm again.

In truth, though there's some noise here in the form of occasional off-color humor or a bit of cruelty at the margins, this is very similar to therapy. So you're not wrong in the sense that what goes on in therapy isn't helpful or isn't important to identity, to transition, to understanding, etc. You are wrong if you believe what takes place here, in support groups, in the off forum contact that takes place between members here, in real world experiences, and other interactions isn't at least as important.

Don't confuse challenge with gatekeeping. Gatekeeping refers to one thing and one thing only - access to SOC-driven medications and care. Using that term is a misrepresentation of what's actually taking place here and is loaded besides.

The people most often hurt and offended in this section, in my opinion, are those who come out of fantasy. Those folks have their hats handed to them. I have no problem with that, including the tone. Buh-bye!

There are also certain "TG" population subgroups that get predictably inflamed by dialogue in this section. I attribute that largely to mistaken assumptions about apparent similarities, the rejection of which invariably degrades into disputes.

This is one of the open forums. People can participate if they like. If there is to be some sensitivity, however, perhaps the deferral should be to the feelings, opinions, and experiences of the transsexual members for whom it is intended, the majority of which do not appear to see the situation as you do.

[Pamela Kay]

I believe it does have to be brutally honest. The facts are the facts and the level of how brutal someone thinks something is can only be measured against their own standard. Transition is hard, real hard and sugar coating it isn't going to help someone who is trying to make a decision which will change their entire life as they know it.

I haven't been on this site as long as some have been but I have been here long enough to figure out who will tell it straight. When I was trying to decide on FFS surgeons I messaged back and forth with some members here who had been there and even talked to one on the phone. They didn't have to give me the time of day, but they did. They didn't pull any punches and told me how it would be and they were right.

Inna you are one of the straight shooters and I am glad to know you, even if it's just in cyberspace.

[Kathryn Martin]

Kathryn, I know you have made some important contributions to this forum, but I am afraid I cannot totally agree with you on this issue.

How about entertaining the idea of trying more subtle alternatives, for example, of just being real yourself, and by this role modelling a cooler, more laid-back and critical approach to your own transition, maybe even one leavened with a sense of humour. Is it our job to do a crude triage in the manner of gate-keepers, forcing newbies to run the gauntlet of our ill-humour, rather than letting them find out, in counseling where they are really at?

There are two aspects which I would like to address. I love my therapist, she is smart, insightful, brilliant and very, very cautious. Not once did she ever suggest anything like a diagnosis or even commented on what she thought of me wanting to transition. She never even saw me dressed as a woman until two weeks before going full time. She was a gate watcher and when the time came she simply pointed at the gate and said: walk! There are many therapists that are like that and many that are extremely competent. There are some that aren't even worth the paper towel in their bathroom. Gate watching is a hugely important function because it must by design prevent people from "walking through the gate" if in the objective uninvolved opinion of a trained professional assesses that this is a walk that should not be undertaken. Being transsexual is not just a "most beloved idea". It is an emotional, physical and spiritual reality. If someone say you should not walk through the gate it means something. Too many go hunting for someone else because they don't like the answer that they get. It pays to get the right one and trust them. They have no dog in the race.

The second consideration is this. We are no gate keepers or watchers. But we must be vigilant to never encourage or discourage someones own search. If we commiserate ( which is quite different from being kind and caring) and say things like "oh I experienced the same thing" as our first response then we set a tone it that is not concomitant with the occasion which brings people here. Rather we need to explain the path through transition, what it means to transition, talk about the real challenges and problems and talk about issues like passing, what that means, grooming, appearance and it's challenges, social consequences, professional consequences etc. As Charlene it get's way to pink. When I talk about clothing, hair and makeup I am not talking about feminizing my appearance. That is the exclusive domain of the crossdressers forum. I am talking about the reality of living a life in which "I am".

[LeaP]

You do make some connections in your spiel to things I said or hinted at and things that seem on the face of it, completely unrelated. I guess I need a Freudian therapist to analyse if it is related on the unconscious level, or a Jungian, to tell if they are related in some mysterious cosmically collective way. A lay person like me, cannot see it however, for which I apologize in advance!

I did go back and read some ofyour earlier posts, and found them better. Certainly others praised them. But not so much this thread, though I hesitate to be that honest.

I would be happy to clarify anything in my post for you. The things that are related to your earlier post seem fairly obvious to me, though. Taking a few of them:

Your comment about therapy being "where it's at" was both colloquial and nonspecific, but inferring, in conjunction with your comments on gatekeeping, that it performed a more valuable or perhaps different function than forum interaction seem to be a fair thing to comment on, hence my comments on therapy

Your comments on "sociability" go directly to my theme of the type of interaction that happens in the forum. My response discounted truly (intended) rude and nasty behavior as marginal, instead characterizing what is interpreted as brutal as a consequence of exactly the same kind of challenge that happens in therapy sessions, at least mine.

You've expressed concerns about driving people away. My response to this was to say that the majority of the transsexuals in this section don't appear to have an issue with the discourse. But clearly there is a perception of nastiness or brutality or whatever you want to call it. My response was that this originates in conflicts between the transsexual and non-transsexuals who participate here. I wrapped this with noting that this is, after all, the transsexual section. Think of it this way: It's like a bunch of people enjoying themselves at loud party. Then, people show up who don't like don't like loud music, in fact they don't like the selection either ... and suggest that perhaps it would be better to have a cocktail party instead. And, by the way, wouldn't it be nice if everyone dressed for the occasion ...

You introduced the concept of gatekeeping into the thread, likening the challenge (my word) or gauntlet (yours) as being akin to limiting access to services. I answered that in several ways. Directly by rejecting it as a loaded term, and notably by stating those most often offended aren't the primary audience of the transsexual forum. I.e., if they exclude themselves out of some perceived offense arising from discourse the TS members actually find appropriate, then no harm of the type you suggest has occurred. One may take YOUR point further - there are other arguments that might be made, but that wasn't my point.

You made several points. I responded to several of them, often using the same terms, and then introduced counterpoints. So I'm not quite sure what you read that didn't tie to your post. I re-read my post a few times and find little that i would change. I thought it hung together quite nicely. Your characterization of "spiel" seems a bit, well, brutal, but I don't mind. I understand that disagreement in this section can be pointed and I DID go on at length ... and have again. Oh well!

I can't help with your need for an analyst to wade through posts. Please accept this amateurish attempt to explain as an extension of such therapy should you choose to pursue it, however. I find the forum works nicely that way.

[Hope]

Honesty need not be brutal. It CAN be, but it doesn't have to be, and usually shouldn't be.

In fact, when something is shared in a manner that is "brutal" it is counter productive because people put up their defenses almost immediately, and the message that one is trying to impart is defected. Almost every time.

That is not to say that the truth is always a soft cuddly teddy-bear or needs to be "sugar coated." We can all identify a personal truth we were/are less than enthusiastic about hearing. The key is to speak in a way so that others can hear you.

[Bree-asaurus]

Honesty need not be brutal. It CAN be, but it doesn't have to be, and usually shouldn't be.

That is not to say that the truth is always a soft cuddly teddy-bear or needs to be "sugar coated." We can all identify a personal truth we were/are less than enthusiastic about hearing. The key is to speak in a way so that others can hear you.

I agree with those parts of your post :P

I already posted my opinion. But I wanted to add that the cool thing about a forum is that many, MANY people offer advice and the advice comes in all forms. Some people sugar coat, some people are brutal and most are somewhere in-between. So if someone doesn't need a certain type of advice at that moment, they have plenty of other responses that they can mull over.

Variety for the win!

[Badtranny]

There are some fantastic contributions to this thread. I really can't add anything except my opinion which is simply; The truth hurts.

If I ask someone if I look fat and they say yes, then should I be upset? I asked, they told me. Is that brutal honesty?

This transition thing that we talk about is truly brutal because the world does not give a damn about our feelings. People will be understanding but they will also stare and laugh. People will be rude, they will call you names, they will treat you like a sideshow act, they will not take you seriously. Transitioning is NOT the same thing as going out fully fem every weekend. or living "mostly" fulltime except for work ya know. Transition is a take no prisoners leap into the abyss of a whole new life. There is no more "presenting as a man" in order to do something or meet someone. Transition means a name change and a reality check, and that ain't easy.

If brutal honesty scares you away than consider yourself lucky, because the road ahead would have been way too rough for you.

[Billiebluenose1878 GG]

There are some fantastic contributions to this thread. I really can't add anything except my opinion which is simply; The truth hurts.

If I ask someone if I look fat and they say yes, then should I be upset? I asked, they told me. Is that brutal honesty?

This transition thing that we talk about is truly brutal because the world does not give a damn about our feelings. People will be understanding but they will also stare and laugh. People will be rude, they will call you names, they will treat you like a sideshow act, they will not take you seriously. Transitioning is NOT the same thing as going out fully fem every weekend. or living "mostly" fulltime except for work ya know. Transition is a take no prisoners leap into the abyss of a whole new life. There is no more "presenting as a man" in order to do something or meet someone. Transition means a name change and a reality check, and that ain't easy.

If brutal honesty scares you away than consider yourself lucky, because the road ahead would have been way too rough for you.

I say if you dont want to hear the truth .. then dont ask .. id rather be told i look a chunky monkey in that outfit and sort it with adjustments ..than be lied to and look terrible and feel the eyes boring into me and feel uncomfortable ...xxx

Id take it as constructive critism ... and be pro -active about it xxxx

[ColleenA]

If brutal honesty scares you away then consider yourself lucky, because the road ahead would have been way too rough for you.

Once again, Melissa shows she has a wonderful way with words.

[Bree-asaurus]

Once again, Melissa shows she has a wonderful way with words.

She's right. Showing the public that you're transexual is probably one of the most criticized choices you can make. Being gay is criticized enough... being trans? I feel bad for what a lot of us have to go through. If you can't take brutally honest criticism from people who are looking out for you and can relate to you, how are you going to take it from people who don't understand you or even hate you?

[STACY B]

She's right. Showing the public that you're transexual is probably one of the most criticized choices you can make. Being gay is criticized enough... being trans? I feel bad for what a lot of us have to go through. If you can't take brutally honest criticism from people who are looking out for you and can relate to you, how are you going to take it from people who don't understand you or even hate you?



Geez ,,, You meen there are really people out there that HATE US ? WOW,,,No that's down right uncalled for ,, Jiminny Crickets ,,, That's Just down right Discerning .

[Bree-asaurus]

Geez ,,, You meen there are really people out there that HATE US ? WOW,,,No that's down right uncalled for ,, Jiminny Crickets ,,, That's Just down right Discerning .

lol... to bring back the '90s... umm DUH!

Why else would we be tied to fences, covered in gasoline and lit on fire?

[STACY B]

lol... to bring back the '90s... umm DUH!

Why else would we be tied to fences, covered in gasoline and lit on fire?


An that's just the reason I don't Flammable clothing ,,Or heels I can run faster in flats ,,, Lynch Mob !!! RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

[Badtranny]

Why else would we be tied to fences, covered in gasoline and lit on fire?

OMG! One time! Things got a little crazy at Spring Break and it hasn't happened again.

Sheesh a girl parties a little too hard ONE night and people never forget it.

[Bree-asaurus]

An that's just the reason I don't Flammable clothing ,,Or heels I can run faster in flats ,,, Lynch Mob !!! RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

I think there's some magical thing that makes anything covered in gasoline flammable :P

I don't wear heels either.... I'm ALWAYS prepared to RUN FOR MY LIFE!!! AHHHHH!


OMG! One time! Things got a little crazy at Spring Break and it hasn't happened again.

Sheesh a girl parties a little too hard ONE night and people never forget it.

Way to make light of a horrible tragedy, Mel. Shame on you! TOO SOON! TOO SOON!

[STACY B]

If they lite me on fire we gonna do lots of Hugging till we burn or I get put out ,,,So keep those flammable away from me ,, Anyway I will Never burn ,,,Cuz I am the Devil ,,, Look into my eyes ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Bree-asaurus]

If they lite me on fire we gonna do lots of Hugging till we burn or I get put out ,,,So keep those flammable away from me ,, Anyway I will Never burn ,,,Cuz I am the Devil ,,, Look into my eyes ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I looked... Oh god.... THE HORRORS!

I saw pineapples!

[STACY B]

I looked... Oh god.... THE HORRORS!

I saw pineapples!



SEE,,,,, Told ya,,,Told ya,,,,, Never know who's lurking ,,, Those southern Baptist told me I was ,,, I said I know ,,Trust me I know ,,,,,, See yall there ,,,LOL,,,,

[Melody Moore]

I don't think anyone ever intends honesty to be 'brutal'. But honesty only becomes brutal
when it is interpreted as being brutal. At times some people might even think I am being a
little brutal on someone who comes to me for advice, but there are twice as many others
who feel that my approach to dealing with an issue wasn't brutal at all. So go figure?

Honesty is only brutal when it is interpreted or taken that way.

[DebbieL]

We as Transsexuals need to spend some time being brutally honest with ourselves during each step of our transition. Otherwise, we probably won't be able to move past this massive stumbling block until we really and completely dispel all self-deception and come to a place of crystal clear awakening that will jolt us onto the track and keep us on it. We have to peer into ourselves in great detail and perform an honest self-inventory.

When I was 21 I attended my first AA meeting, and they read the 12 steps. I knew I was screwed, because I had to be capable of being honest with myself. At that point, my whole life was based on deception, Debbie didn't even have a name, but I knew that I had wanted to be a girl for almost 16 years, that I was a girl trapped in a boy's body. At the same time, I wouldn't tell a soul, when they hinted I would deny, when given support for being feminine I would pretend it was masculine, and if someone got too close, I'd just lie. Worse, I didn't think I had a prayer of passing. I was 6' tall, had a deep bass singing voice, and facial hair that I had to shave twice a day. I was thin enough, had a bit of a butt, and had a soft complexion, but I also had dark hair on my legs which were very nicely shaped thank to 4 years of ballet, modern, tap, jazz, and stage movement, thousands of plie' s and releve's, not to mention lost of stretching on the floor.

When drinking, my feminine personality came out one of two ways, either as "the ****", who would go down on any woman who wore a skirt and heels to the party, or "the bitch" who could castrate a man with her mouth, just by pulling his covers and exposing his disrespect for women in general, and often the girl he was with.

Of course, this would happen in black-outs so intense that I would remember almost nothing, and would hear about it the next day, or before starting at the next party. Essentially, the blackouts were the only time when that wall I had spent years constructing to keep the bullies and jocks from beating me so badly that I often ended up in the hospital.

After 4 more years of relapses, many of which were 1-2 drinks that ended up in black-outs or job losses, or being robbed at gun-point, or going down I-25 and getting side-swiped by two cars who were drag racing - I finally met a man who said "How you doing" I said "Fine" - he said "Bullshit, get honest" and I said, "I will if you'll help me". He agreed to take me through those steps.

When I did my first 5th step, I tore the page about being transsexual out of the book, it was only when he said "what, no pink elephant? Where's your pink elephant, the one you'll take to your grave. It will take you to the grave if you don't deal with it now. I showed him the last page, he didn't even know what to say, but he had shared that he had been a hustler, turning tricks as a guy on the capital steps, so I know he knew what I was dealing with, and he encouraged me to be honest with my girl-friend. I told her, and she seemed to accept the dressing, and I hoped that that would be enough.

8 years later, I found another sponsor, and after I took him through the steps, I asked him to let me do my steps with him. By then, it had become obvious that the marriage wasn't working, that I was about to crash and burn. I wrote about wanting to be a girl, growing up, all the lies and deception, even the lies to my own wife, and children, my parents, just about everyone. Most of the other issues, finances, amends, anger, had already been dealt with, but this was HUGE. Can you believe it, I'd lived with this girl trapped in my body, and she didn't even have a NAME!

That sponsor insisted that I start "getting honest" by coming out. It was August, and he said "When will we meet her", explaining that I needed to make a public appearance. I offered "Halloween" - and he said, "that's a start", and suggested that I get at least 3 more full outfits for that first week. He also insisted on meeting me, as female, getting dressed, wearing a wig and make-up. I had all that, and then he suggested that I think of a name. It actually took about two weeks to decide on one. I had several close female friends named Debbie, and I realized that with an unusual name like Rex, combining it with an unusual femme name would make the connection too obvious. I also didn't want a drag queen name or a sissy name, but a real name for a real woman, someone I actually liked. Many women my age were named Debbie (after Debbie Reynolds), so I took it.

My sponsor then had Debbie do the steps. I had to be dressed and made up before I could do any writing as Debbie. It was actually quite remarkable. The penmanship was better, the grammar and spelling were better, things were more organized. My sponsor pointed that out and I realized that he was right. Debbie had many traits that Rex couldn't seem to access, it was like there was a split personality. It was also surprising how quickly I adapted. At the Halloween party I wore a maid's outfit I made myself out of black bridal satin. Needless to say, there were a few women who wanted to take me home right then, and had I not been married - I might have accepted their invitation, even if it did mean becoming a housewife and plaything to a dominant woman.

Over the next year, my wife and I got couple's counseling, realized that we couldn't have a satisfying sex life each other. I started going out as Debbie more, my wife started having an affair, and her boyfriend decided he wanted to marry her. The more I dressed, the more I was aware of my weight. When my wife asked for a divorce, I was referred to a specialist who gave me gender counseling. I had to dress more and more often, go to many different environments, including gay bars, Lesbian bars, straight bars, all without drinking booze of course, and I had to go to AA and NA dances and dance with ANYONE who asked, men and women. To say that a whole new world opened up would be an understatement. Of course, I also had observers. One guy was going to the same parties, telling his brother, who was telling his girl-friend, who was competing for the same promotion I was. She was passing the information on to a homophobic Executive VP on the corporate jet she'd take with him to visit her family. A cool perk she liked to use.

Needless to say, by Halloween of that year, I essentially died. I lost my wife, my children, my job, and my home. I even had to leave the town where I was living. I literally had to start over, and do it fast. I moved to a no-tell motel in Denver, started going to as many gay AA and NA meetings as I could as Debbie, got a job where they not only knew about Debbie, but where women had many of the top executive positions, including the VP of my department. I was introduced to someone who had heard of me and wanted a one-night stand, that turned into a two year relationship, including delivery of her baby (she was 5 months pregnant when she met, but her ex-husband was in another state), and she started sharing me with her girl-friends, one of whom moved in with us. We helped her get visitation rights and supported her regaining custody, as well as helping her get her GED. Then another friend of her moved in and we helped her deliver her baby (her boyfriend was in jail at the time). Then another girl came to live with us, who turned out to be an undercover cop investigating my home to see if I was running a prostitution ring. When she met Debbie, met my children, saw how much I enjoyed taking care of the other children (we each too turns taking one night a week to take care of all the kids so the others could go to AA or NA meetings). When I made it clear that sex was not a requirement, only a fringe benefit, and nobody was to be forced into doing anything, she had her "Boyfriend" (police partner) come to pick her up. She reported to social services that I was the "Fairy Godmother" to all these children, a nickname that stuck as an alias.

Sadly, my ex-wife couldn't stand the Idea of Debbie taking care of her kids. She talked to her sister-in-law, a Nazarene, who fixed her up with a social worker who wrote a letter recommending supervised visitation, addressed to a judge who would make sure the request was honored. All my ex had to do was deliver it to the judge, and it would be done. To make matters worse, her husband was using a belt on my kids. I'd found the welts when giving them their baths during their visitation. She showed me the letter and I realized I would be unable to do anything about the abuse if she got my visitation limited to a few hours under the watchful eye of a Nazarene who would attempt to claim that I was being "inappropriate" with the kids if I did ANYTHING feminine.

One of my sponsees invited me to an introduction to the Landmark Forum, and I registered, hoping to be able to get past whatever was blocking me from completing my transition, AND somehow be able to assure that the kids would be safe. It was even more confronting than the 12 steps, but I began to see that I had some hard choices to make. I also learned that I had the potential to be a great leader. At the time, I thought that would be in regard to 12 step programs or something like that. I was offered a new job at almost double my salary, which led to moving to Colorado Springs so I could spend more time with my children, while also being able to drive to Denver for meetings and a cross-dresser support group. By this point, I was living Debbie all but the 40 hours I was at work, and even then I was able to wear women's clothes.


During any given day, we lie to ourselves hundreds of times. Be it about our clothing or style, if its how we dealt with someone, or how much money we spent. We lie constantly to ourselves. Making the type of changes we need to make in transition, we can ill afford a lie. You have to think through every action to ensure that its an act of truth, that you are doing it because its the right thing to do, that what you are doing matters. Think about that for a second. You cannot lie to anyone, including yourself.

One of the hardest things to face in the cross-dresser support group was hearing from MtF transsexuals who shared their tales of having to lie and keep people from discovering that they were once men, having to remember not to react as they once had when they were men. It was yet another form having to pretend that they had learned to become to protect who they really were, in order to be who they really were. What a confusing web of deception!

Eventually, my wife pulled out that letter again, and told me that I would have to stop seeing the kids, for at least 6 months, because it was preventing the kids from bonding with Jerry, who could be a real father to the children, if we would let him. He wasn't beating the kids anymore, and had learned more effective ways of parenting. At the same time, I was offered a 6 month consulting engagement near New York City, where I would have the chance to meet other transsexuals, explore transition in a state where the rights of homosexuals and "perceived homosexuals" were protected (unlike Colorado), and I would be able to decide whether to transition there, or in Colorado. I was also working on a volunteer project to make the National Science Foundation available to the general public and make it available for commercial use. I was hoping that I could meet with some publishers who might be willing to publish their content on the Internet, and maybe have a chance to work with contacts at Landmark who could work with Advertisers who could help fund that effort, and perhaps even put their catalog on the internet. Perhaps I could even work with some banks to work out how to do financial transactions via "The Net". At the end of the consulting engagement, I was sent to Dow Jones, and offered a job immediately. Using that connection, I was able to work with hundreds of publishers and corporations who began connecting to a "commercial Intenet" that could be used for commercial purposes as well as research and educational uses (the Commercial users had access to the NSFNet through a fire-wall protected network).

As the project get bigger, I went to Landmark to get more leadership training. Unfortunately, one of the conditions of one of the key courses was that I had to "Burn the Dresses" in order to become a powerful leader. At the end of the 6 month program, I realized that I couldn't burn the dress, and took another program that focused in how to manage and lead "covert operations" - allowing me to preserve my anonymity and continue to live as Debbie, as well as working as Rex. Eventually the project grew to over 8000 publishers, 30 banks, thousands of advertisers, artists in what became known as "Silicon Alley", and technology vendors. We even began working on ways to expand the project to International Scale, working with Mexico, then Latin America, then India, then China and Africa - to take computers being discarded because they couldn't run Windows 95, Windows NT 4.0, or Windows XP, and shipping them to these emerging markets where they would be configured with Linux, creating huge new markets with minimal investment.

Unfortunately, Debbie and Rex began to struggle. The less Debbie got out, the more hungry Rex got. It was like food was being used to fill the void created by not being Debbie. I would go out as Debbie more often, and lose weight, but then as I became more public, and a target of many Microsoft advocates, Debbie had to hide more. Eventually, by 9/11/2001, Rex had gained over 170 lbs growing to over 325 lbs. More than double my best weight as Debbie. It was almost like Debbie was trying to commit suicide. After the attack, I realized that many of my friends had lost their lives - they worked in the towers. I didn't know who exactly, or how many, but I knew that many wonderful people in my life were gone.

I started doing the Atkins diet, but I also realized that I might lose more weight if I started dressing up more often. At first, I'd only dress in the hotel room when I was on the road. It began to work, I lost 65 lbs. I started going out in public again, and lost even more. Then the word got out and those people who supported Microsoft were talking about it in the same networks I had built for my projects. I had to own it, but I also had to maintain a lower profile. A bit of weight came back, and I decided to try using Match.com to see if I could find a partner who would be able to enjoy Debbie. I was as honest as I could be at the time. A few women were interested and I eventually met the woman who would become my second wife. Unfortunately, I was doing more engagements in "hostile" environments, like Jefferson City Missouri, or Baltimore and Virginia. I started gaining weight again, and to make matters worse, Lee didn't object to Debbie, and even enjoyed Debbie, but didn't want to go out on dates with Debbie, go to dinner with Debbie, and she didn't want Debbie to go to church, family functions, or business functions with even a HINT of Debbie. The weight went up, so did the blood pressure. Ultimately, I ended up having a stroke that took out my left side. I could barely walk, let alone even think about walking in high heels. My face was numb on the left side, making it very hard to do make-up that looked even remotely alive. When I finally did recover, I was sent to Saudi Arabia, where being caught dressed in public was a death penalty, being caught in the family area without a female family member was also a way to get a beating - from the male family members if not by the religious enforcers.

When I finished that gig, I ended up in Stockholm Sweden, where the first SRS operations were done. I began to consider transition again. I had grown a beard in Saudi so that I would look more like a Muslim, and when I got to Stockholm, instead of shaving it off, I walked it off. It actually took almost 2 weeks to endure all of the pain, working the cheeks first, then the sideburns, then the mustache, then finally the neck and chin. I'd keep the hair down using depilatory creme, which killed many of the remaining roots, but left my face burning so bad that I had to put vitamin E creme.on in the morning. The cold weather made the damage less obvious, but it was still something to see. Eventually, my face recovered and it was almost as if I'd done a year of electrolysis on my sides, but the chin and neck weren't so lucky. Still, I was able to get some leggings and a sweater-dress and a wig, and could pass for a girl again.

I started doing Second Life as well, which gave me a chance to create a female avitar. I was able to interact with a number of real women, as well as men posing as women, and found that I had almost trouble telling which was which. Even so, most of the women never knew that I wasn't a natural woman. It was also fun playing with the impostors as well as playing with men posing as men. Since I didn't have to worry about consequences or things getting out of control, I could also try many things I probably wouldn't have tried in real life. I have to admit though, I did become a shopaholic for a while. It did give me a taste for doing it for real again.


So the question remains, Does honesty have to be so brutal? Yes, it does.

Unfortunately the truth is LITERALLY Brutal, more than half of all transsexuals have tried to kill themselves, more than once, doing things that SHOULD have killed them. The most common times are when they are in their teens and early twenties, when they are having to deal with the ugly and brutal TRUTH that their body is turning into something they dread becoming. While most men are thrilled to be getting a low voice, hair on the chest, face, and legs, erections and ejaculations, big shoulders and getting much taller, to a transsexual, it's like a death sentence. They have to face the truth, that they may have to spend the rest of their lives in a body they hate. The consolation of cross-dressing may be a placebo, but if they fall in love, tell a girl, and she rejects him, it means that even that is not an option. I said half of all transsexuals have tried, but that's because the survey only covered LIVING respondents. I was told by my therapist that transsexuals had a 75% chance of killing themselves, which would indicate that for every transsexual who lived, there may be another 2 or 3 that didn't live long enough to take the survey. Now, with facebook, blogs, twitter, and other personal records which often include a person's most private and personal thoughts, police are finding a substantially high number of suicides, especially non-violent suicides - are often young men who have been struggling with sexual preference and sexual identity.

Another time of great risk is when they reach their later years, they know there is no hope of ever being a young and beautiful woman, at that point, they know what it takes to be healthy, to live a healthy lifestyle and eat a healthy diet, so they do the opposite. They eat more junk food, more sugars, more salt, and even check their blood pressure and watch it go up. They have have even made a living will - complete with an unconditional DNR order. Eat some things they shouldn't, drink things they shouldn't, maybe even take up some unhealthy habits or risky hobbies. They might even burn the candle at both ends. They might even switch from Christianity to Buddhism or Hindu - a faith that believes in reincarnation - since the LAST thing they want to do is spend ETERNITY in a MAN'S BODY. Of course, the hope being a girl in the next life could make them a bit too eager to leave their current life.

[kellycan27]

Now that.. was brutal! :heehee:

[STACY B]

Now that.. was brutal! :heehee:



An long to ,,, You think that's BAD ,,, Yall think that's Bad ,,,You Dam sure don't wanna hear mine !

[kellycan27]

An long to ,,, You think that's BAD ,,, Yall think that's Bad ,,,You Dam sure don't wanna hear mine !

C'mon Stace.. you know i hang on your every word.. or is that want to hang myself? I forget which :heehee:

[Marleena]

C'mon Stace.. you know i hang on your every word.. or is that want to hang myself? I forget which :heehee:

Kelly I have to be brutally honest here. You look amazing in that bikini picture!

[kellycan27]

Kelly I have to be brutally honest here. You look amazing in that bikini picture! Are you trying to hurt my feelings? :heehee:

Thank you BTW
Kel

[morgan51]

Inna I connect with your description of transition life experiences,pain ,derision and triumphs I'm nowhere nearly as far along the path as you but am experiencing some pain from non aceptance non tolerance and judgemental people. I've been rejected by my sister and thrown out of a bible study group I attended for 7 years. A recovery group I attend has been great and I get to experience acceptance there and beleive me its sorely needed. The womens group there is wonderful as well and totally welcoming. I I am experiencing the feeling of being propelled foward by nonaccepting people and by my desire to just get to the desired gender on the exterior. I have no doubt about my brain gender or my hearts desire to correct the body. Fear kept me paralized too long and now that I 'm free I am single focused on getting thru this and enjoying a somewhat peaceful life. I never could have predicted all the nasty and unreasonable turns my recent going 24/7 has stirred up in this womans life. I'm sure its not over. Stay tuned! I truly enjoy your posts and look foward to more its something like a little crystal ball for me! Thankyou Dear One. Morgan

[josee]

Great thread everyone!

Inna, I love your insight and honesty, brutal or not. I have learned so much from you. Please don't ever stop!
You inspire me.