Question about spiro

[Cheyenne Skye]

My doctor put me just on the spiro first to make sure I could tolerate it. I had my blood drawn last week to check kidney function etc. I have been on spiro for three and a half weeks so far. I go back to the doctor in two weeks where we will discuss the test results. Assuming all is well with the blood test, he will then write the script for the E. My question is this: I've noticed a lack of energy the last week or two( presumably because of the low T level). Will I get this energy back once he starts me on E? Or am I destined to be tired for the rest of my life?

[melissaK]

I got tired more quickly. Heavy lifting was surprisingly not as easy .

Hugs,
'lissa

[sandra-leigh]

Normally there is some adjustment to the tiredness, some relief. However, spiro reduces testosterone, and along with feeling weaker you can feel more tired. A question is how well you can manage it.

The "maintenance" dose of spiro will probably not be as high as what is used to get your T levels down.

If spiro makes you dizzy, you really have to be careful. Some people adjust to that and some don't, and it's dangerous while you have it. Dangerous in the same sense as driving drunk.

I happened to be one of the minority who could not tolerate normal (for HRT purposes) doses of spiro; anything more than the intro dose knocked me back too far. None-the-less, that intro dose was enough to reduces my T levels significantly.

[Tammy V]

I was on DIY Spiro for almost 3 months before starting E, although a low dose. When I went to the doctor he doubled the Spiro dose and gave me an E patch. I was taking herbal estrogen with the Spiro and never noticed the lack of energy but it did begin to erode my strength and muscle mass just a tad and that trend had luckily continued. My T was below normal male when I started HRT and I attribute thte Spiro with most of that so that's a likely cause of low energy....

[harley47]

Spiro does have drawbacks. I am pleased with the demasculinazation benefits-loss of body hair, lessening of beard regrowth, maybe some body softening-and allowing estrogen to do its wonders. But, strength and energy suffer-muscle mass loss. I do fear some of the ill effects of less T, but that is such a terrible hormone I am willing to accept the risks. It will be come apparent that sexual abilities will suffer. I can get erect, but hard to maintain, and any sort of 'normal' escalation of arousal and a climax end up 'fizzling' and inability to function sexually-in the conventional male role. You can learn othe ways to find physical happiness. good luck, harley

[Inna]

Big time!!! with introduction of spiro, T levels should drop dramatically, T is a aggression hormone, built by nature for strength, speed, agility and muscular regeneration, besides being totally useless for Transsexual woman. so after a while with T reduced to mere drop, muscles will start thin down, it is a good thing, unless of course you are lifting heavy stuff and get physical at work. And No, the energy did not come back for me, however, there are side effects of spiro, which by it self may promote fatigue.

I feel such as I am on pretty high dose for a while, can't wait to do Orchi, and for once put spiro away for good!

[noeleena]

Hi,

Spiro, Was a waiste of time for myself & did not have to be on that in the start, only did it some months later.

My own hormones did more for me than spiro,

As to strength lose about 10 % from start to end . body mass was / is the same = im the same weight now as i was 46 years ago,. give or take 5 lbs . & im happy with that.

Okay this is my self , if i had any undue effects on my body , = the meds i were on or had taken id be off them straight away. no ?s id stop. end of , now thats me iv been around meds & drugs for too long .

The blockers did not work for myself in the way it does for trans. the reason being im intersexed so not all drugs meds work for us, thats the difference,

It allso depends on how long youv been on spiro. if your not happy with whats going on then .....TELL .... your G P. & recheck a new set of blood tests to see where your at,

As an interesting detail the lack of T for me did not have much effect. even though im a woman one, my levels are as a normal woman my E is normal though remember im a menopusal woman.

So there can be lots of differences for each of us,

...noeleena...

[StephanieC]

I found no real decrease in energy. There are some times when I'm a bit more tired but I don't think anymore so than normal.

Of course, I'd been on DIY for years before and already had changes from that: muscles, skin, etc.

The effect of hormones on each person can be so different though.

-stephani

[LeaP]

I have more energy, which I attribute to lifting my mood. I am losing muscle.

[Stephenie S]

There is so little information given out by doctors about spironolactone that it's scary.

Listen up.

Spiro is a diuretic high blood pressure medication. How does it work? It works by making you urinate (diuresis). It removes some of the fluid in your body. (Less fluid = less pressure) Simple, right?

OK. Spiro has a side effect that makes it useful to those who want less testosterone in their bodies. Spiro blocks testosterone. HOWEVER, the normal dose of spiro taken for blood pressure control is quite small. The dose needed to adequately block testosterone for trans women is 10 or more times the normal dose for blood pressure regulation.

So. What do you think happens to your blood pressure when you start these high doses of spiro? Right! Your blood pressure drops like a stone. Low blood pressure = weakness, dizziness, light-headedness, the possibility of fainting when you stand up quickly. All these are dangerous symptoms and MUST be paid attention to. Stand up slowly. Expect some loss of strength. Expect to feel light headed.

Will these symptoms continue? No they won't. In the vast majority of cases, your body will adjust within a few weeks. But please be prepared for some adverse effects when you start spironolactone and don't be afraid of them. They will not last. Unfortuneatly, I have found that few doctors inform their patients very well about this dangerous drug.

Stephie

[StephanieC]

There is so little information given out by doctors about spironolactone that it's scary.

List up.

Spiro is a diuretic high blood pressure medication. How does it work? It works by making you urinate (diuresis). It removes some of the fluid in your body. (Less fluid = less pressure) Simple, right?

OK. Spiro has a side effect that makes it useful to those who want less testosterone in their bodies. Spiro blocks testosterone. HOWEVER, the normal dose of spiro taken for blood pressure control is quite small. The dose needed to adequately block testosterone for trans women is 10 or more times the normal dose for blood pressure regulation.

So. What do you think happens to your blood pressure when you start these high doses of spiro? Right! Your blood pressure drops like a stone. Low blood pressure = weakness, dizziness, light-headedness, the possibility of fainting when you stand up quickly. All these are dangerous symptoms and MUST be paid attention to. Stand up slowly. Expect some loss of strength. Expect to feel light headed.

Will these symptoms continue? No they won't. In the vast majority of cases, your body will adjust within a few weeks. But please be prepared for some adverse effects when you start spironolactone and don't be afraid of them. They will not last. Unfortuneatly, I have found that few doctors inform their patients very well about this dangerous drug.

Stephie

Well, I certainly didn't recall my doc mentioning this. But he was telling me about a bunch of stuff so it's possible I missed this.

-stephani

[ReneeT]

Big time!!! with introduction of spiro, T levels should drop dramatically, T is a aggression hormone, built by nature for strength, speed, agility and muscular regeneration, besides being totally useless for Transsexual woman. so after a while with T reduced to mere drop, muscles will start thin down, it is a good thing, unless of course you are lifting heavy stuff and get physical at work. And No, the energy did not come back for me, however, there are side effects of spiro, which by it self may promote fatigue.

I feel such as I am on pretty high dose for a while, can't wait to do Orchi, and for once put spiro away for good!

Inna, testosterone is not a totally useless hormone in women, trans or otherwise. Natal women do require some testosterone for normal physiologic function- just not much.

[abby39]

My doctor put me just on the spiro first to make sure I could tolerate it. I had my blood drawn last week to check kidney function etc. I have been on spiro for three and a half weeks so far. I go back to the doctor in two weeks where we will discuss the test results. Assuming all is well with the blood test, he will then write the script for the E. My question is this: I've noticed a lack of energy the last week or two( presumably because of the low T level). Will I get this energy back once he starts me on E? Or am I destined to be tired for the rest of my life?

Spiro didn't have that effect for me. I think it works differently for everyone? But I have always been high-strung...so who knows? Wow, I'm sure this reply was a whole lot of NO help! :)

[abigailf]

I am not sure it was a loss of energy or just the thinning of the muscles that caused me to wear down quickly. However, one thing I did notice that impacted my energy was my diet. I altered the way I eat since hormones and I have more energy than my body requires.

I do at times experience a loss of breath. Meaning if I go from a rest to active rather quickly I need to pause and take a deep breath, I have also noticed slight dizziness under the same conditions and need to catch my breath. I am a runner and have a low resting heart rate, so the sudden need of oxygen to the muscles requires some deep breaths.

Although, I have noticed this breathless feeling is more frequent after a weekend of feasting on food my body could otherwise do with out. Sometimes however, I just need a big juicy hamburger and an apple pie ala mode...

My doctor also pointed out that sometimes stress can be a big contributor, which would make sense too because when I get these feelings it is during some of the more stressful times of my week.

[Jordie]

Hello All,

I have been about a year on Spiro. I am a low blood pressure individual by nature and Spiro really drop it down but my body tried to recover but never completely, lately, I have been feeling very dizzy, light headed and with with steady headaches. I have reduced my dosage by half as per my doctor but still the same. I don't know what to do next. Is there any other med for reducing T? Do I have any other options? Your input will be appreciated?

Love

[sandra-leigh]

Is there any other med for reducing T?

finasteride and dutasteride are testosterone inhibiters; spiro is a testosterone blocker. If you are outside the US, cyproterone is often the second choice (after spiro), but it is considered too much of a liver risk in the USA.

[Jordie]

Is Spiro safer than the other meds?

[sandra-leigh]

Is Spiro safer than the other meds?

That is the impression I have formed. Apparently most people tolerate spiro fairly well. (I also recently heard a pediatric endo saying that adolescents tolerate it very well.)

[Raquel June]

Spiro didn't really make me tired, but it made me super dehydrated. I felt like I had a dull hangover most of the time.

My heart rate is low and my blood pressure is the high end of normal, and I get a lot of exercise. So lowering my BP a little didn't seem to matter. But if you're active, taking a strong diuretic like spiro can be a real annoyance because you need to force yourself to drink a ton of water.

Since Spiro lowers your BP and removes salt from your body, though, you can compensate for it pretty well just by putting tons of salt on your food. That'll also make you want to drink more water. That's what I did. It helped.

But I didn't like Spiro, it didn't work very well for me, and I really didn't like upping my dosage. But it didn't make me feel like I had low energy. Maybe that's because it wasn't working. Cypro makes me more tired. But caffeine helps.

Honestly, the thing that makes me most tired is having a boring desk job. But being on T-blockers and E, I think I just need more sleep. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe it's because my boobs are growing. I mean, people in puberty need more sleep.

It's just been hard for me to adjust. I used to be fine getting 5 hours of sleep per night, and maybe 7 hours a couple times per week. Now I need more like 7 hours, and it really helps if I get 9 hours a couple times per week.

[abigailf]

Hello All,

I have been about a year on Spiro. I am a low blood pressure individual by nature and Spiro really drop it down but my body tried to recover but never completely, lately, I have been feeling very dizzy, light headed and with with steady headaches. I have reduced my dosage by half as per my doctor but still the same. I don't know what to do next. Is there any other med for reducing T? Do I have any other options? Your input will be appreciated?

Love


Do you add any salt to your foods?

I don't recommend you doing this without consulting your doctor first but maybe add a little more salt to your diet to help raise your BP.

[CharleneT]

There is so little information given out by doctors about spironolactone that it's scary.

Listen up.

Spiro is a diuretic high blood pressure medication. How does it work? It works by making you urinate (diuresis). It removes some of the fluid in your body. (Less fluid = less pressure) Simple, right?

OK. Spiro has a side effect that makes it useful to those who want less testosterone in their bodies. Spiro blocks testosterone. HOWEVER, the normal dose of spiro taken for blood pressure control is quite small. The dose needed to adequately block testosterone for trans women is 10 or more times the normal dose for blood pressure regulation.

So. What do you think happens to your blood pressure when you start these high doses of spiro? Right! Your blood pressure drops like a stone. Low blood pressure = weakness, dizziness, light-headedness, the possibility of fainting when you stand up quickly. All these are dangerous symptoms and MUST be paid attention to. Stand up slowly. Expect some loss of strength. Expect to feel light headed.

Will these symptoms continue? No they won't. In the vast majority of cases, your body will adjust within a few weeks. But please be prepared for some adverse effects when you start spironolactone and don't be afraid of them. They will not last. Unfortuneatly, I have found that few doctors inform their patients very well about this dangerous drug.

Stephie

BINGO !! SO true about the docs !!

Also, Spironolactone will cause your body to retain potassium. This can be a significant problem, so while on S you need to be careful about eating foods that are rich in potassium. You may have some muscle cramps while on S, they can be quite strong.

[Inna]

Inna, testosterone is not a totally useless hormone in women, trans or otherwise. Natal women do require some testosterone for normal physiologic function- just not much.

I have meant it in a Transspecific ideology, of course in order to be absolutely free of T levels, adrenal cortex would have to be removed as well. However a 15 to 70 ng/dL of T as it is within normal levels for woman is simply insignificant comparing those of 550-1200 in males, but as you noted, Not Totally Useless!!!

[Stephenie S]

Isn't anyone listening?

Spironolactone LOWERS your blood pressure. Being tired, weak, lightheaded, dizzy, lack of energy, confusion, sudden blackouts, are ALL symptoms of LOW BLOOD PRESSURE, not low testosterone. For almost everyone these symptoms will subside with time as your body gets used to the relatively massive doses of a medication (spiro) that is specifically designed to lower blood pressure.

These symptoms won't last. Drink lots of water, and be careful when you get up at night to urinate.

Yes, spiro is a potassium sparing diuretic. That means that is does NOT excrete potassium when you urinate. So what? The "what" is that the electrolyte potassium, along with other electrolytes (like sodium [salt]) must exist in a fairly delicate balance in your body in order for nerve impulse conduction, cell metabolism, and muscle contraction, to occur. Upset this delicate balance, and you are in trouble. Excess potassium can kill you. But in a normal healthy body, the kidneys will excrete any excess potassium in your diet. If you are healthy, you need not worry too much about excess potassium, but this is one really important reason why we say do this only under a physician's care.

When you first start taking spiro in the huge doses needed for testosterone blocking, you must be aware of the usual side effects. But hundreds of transwomen have gone through this. The human body is an amazingly adaptable thing. Give it a chance.

S

[cyndigurl45]

Spiro is my friend even after the orchi, you see spiro is also a heart drug the diuretic effects removes fluid around the heart helping with CHF and hypertension and has potassium sparing effects so for me it's a good thing :-)

[StephanieC]

[Also, Spironolactone will cause your body to retain potassium. This can be a significant problem, so while on S you need to be careful about eating foods that are rich in potassium.
This is amazingly difficult to do! Look at labels...even things like yogurt, fiber cereals, snack foods...some of these are significant. I thought it was just a matter of avoiding potatoes and OJ...no ma'am! And I'm not even sure about the foods that don't list potassium on the label.

-stephani

[Jorja]

@Stephenie S, just so everyone here knows and is not relying on information from Wikipedia or someplace else, are you a doctor or nurse?

[Stephenie S]

Dear Jorja,

Yes, I am. I do not use Wikipedia. But my information is available in any standard medical textbook. I just try and put it in lay terms.

S

[Jorja]

Dear Jorja,

Yes, I am. I do not use Wikipedia. But my information is available in any standard medical textbook. I just try and put it in lay terms.

S

Thank you, I thought I had read that about you before. However, there are many new people here that do not know that.

[Raquel June]

Isn't anyone listening?

Spironolactone LOWERS your blood pressure. Being tired, weak, lightheaded, dizzy, lack of energy, confusion, sudden blackouts, are ALL symptoms of LOW BLOOD PRESSURE, not low testosterone.

Those are symptoms of extremely low blood pressure, but why are you saying none of them are symptoms of low testosterone? A lack of energy can definitely be caused by lowering your testosterone.



For almost everyone these symptoms will subside with time as your body gets used to the relatively massive doses of a medication (spiro) that is specifically designed to lower blood pressure.

...

These symptoms won't last. Drink lots of water, and be careful when you get up at night to urinate.

What makes you think your body will adapt to Spiro and it will no longer lower your blood pressure? If that were true, it wouldn't be a very good blood pressure medication, would it?

Above, you can see Jordie complaining about being on Spiro for a year and still experiencing dizziness and headaches.

I was on Spiro during 2009 and 2010. What made me switch to Cypro in October 2010 was that, after two years, I had a near-constant hangover-like headache from being dehydrated, and I couldn't drink enough water. There was just no way for me to work out on a daily basis. My BP is always around 130/80. I was just dehydrated. Although being dehydrated does lower your BP... so who knows.

But I've gotta assume that some people just don't adapt, unless it takes over 2 years.



This is amazingly difficult to do! Look at labels...even things like yogurt, fiber cereals, snack foods...some of these are significant. I thought it was just a matter of avoiding potatoes and OJ...no ma'am! And I'm not even sure about the foods that don't list potassium on the label.

-stephani

I think most of the potassium in potatoes is in the skin. Tomatoes, avocados, bananas, and 8oz of OJ all have about 500mg. One time when I was on spiro I ate nothing all day but a huge tomato for lunch and lot of guacamole for dinner, and that evening I got big cramps in my thighs and felt like my heartbeat was kinda irregular.

I ate some pizza and drank some soda and felt fine in an hour. On one hand, it made me take the potassium thing more seriously, but on the other hand, it also made me feel like I didn't have to worry too much because the symptoms are pretty obvious long before it really hurts you.

[Aprilrain]

Occording to my endo Compared to other BP meds Spiro is not a very good one and most people adapt to it. Just sayin.

[CharleneT]

This is amazingly difficult to do! Look at labels...even things like yogurt, fiber cereals, snack foods...some of these are significant. I thought it was just a matter of avoiding potatoes and OJ...no ma'am! And I'm not even sure about the foods that don't list potassium on the label.

-stephani

You do not need to eliminate potassium, just be careful of how much you consume. Yes, the list is long and there are some surprises on it. I've got to run now, but I'll post a list of foods to be cautious of later.

C.

[Stephenie S]

Raquel asked:

"Those are symptoms of extremely low blood pressure, but why are you saying none of them are symptoms of low testosterone? A lack of energy can definitely be caused by lowering your testosterone."

No, silly. Low testosterone doesn't cause lack of energy. Are all the women in your experience weak and tired? That's a kinda sexist thought now, isn't it? I have very low testosterone levels, for instance, but I have plenty of energy. Those symptoms are low blood pressure. And spironolactone is not often used for BP control any more just because it not a very good med. We have much nicer ones now.

We don't discus dosages here but the amount of spiro needed to be of much use to a pre-surgical transgender woman can easily be 10 to 20 times the dose needed for adequate BP control. As I said, this can be a massive dose. Blood pressure might and can drop like a stone. This is often not mentioned at all. Spiro is a diuretic. It lowers BP by removing fluid from your body. Quite simply, it makes you pee. So, when you get up in the night to "pee", guess what? You can pass out. It's a very dangerous drug until your body gets used to it (which it will). But these symptoms are not from lack of testosterone. They are from low BP. I said this all once already.

130/80 is borderline high blood pressure.

You should not have to worry much about potassium at all. Healthy kidneys will excrete all the potassium your body does not need. Hyperkalemia is almost always due to some other functional breakdown. Both April and Charlene are correct. Read their posts.

S

[Raquel June]

Raquel asked:

"Those are symptoms of extremely low blood pressure, but why are you saying none of them are symptoms of low testosterone? A lack of energy can definitely be caused by lowering your testosterone."

No, silly. Low testosterone doesn't cause lack of energy. Are all the women in your experience weak and tired? That's a kinda sexist thought now, isn't it? I have very low testosterone levels, for instance, but I have plenty of energy. Those symptoms are low blood pressure. And spironolactone is not often used for BP control any more just because it not a very good med. We have much nicer ones now.

You're right. I'm sexist. Going from 1,000 ng/ml of testosterone to 30 ng/ml has zero side-effects. It is impossible for anything but low blood pressure to make you weak or tired. /sarcasm

My point is that yes, those are symptoms of very low blood pressure, but low blood pressure is not the only thing that can cause those symptoms. And if you are really a medical professional, I can't believe you're acting like it is. Other HRT meds commonly have the effect of making people tired, and they don't lower blood pressure. I need more sleep than I did before HRT, and I don't take Spiro.

And again, a major complaint I had (and Jordie had) about Spiro was headaches, and that is not caused by low blood pressure.

And I think it's hysterical that you think the biggest concern people on Spiro should have is collapsing on the way to the bathroom. Do you honestly think that is a legitimate concern for people under 65?




130/80 is borderline high blood pressure.

That's why I said it. Spiro dehydrated me and made me feel awful, and it wasn't because my blood pressure was too low.

[Stephenie S]

Sweetie, you don't have to believe me. I'm not the testosterone cop. But I do know of what I speak. Medication doesn't always work the same way in everyone. That's why we call it the "practice" of medicine. Grin.

My only point in all of this is that the ability of spiro to lower your BP drastically when taken in the dosages many TG women take it is rarely discussed by medical professionals who prescribe it.

And low testosterone may make YOU tired, but half the population of the world may take issue with you based on their personal experience. I know I do.

Does estrogen make you tired too?

This information is available in any medical text. Do a little research, hon.

S

[sandra-leigh]

And low testosterone may make YOU tired, but half the population of the world may take issue with you based on their personal experience. I know I do.

The NIH believes that low testosterone in adult males can lead to fatigue, and to depression (which can in turn trigger fatigue.) I find similar concerns expressed in other documents written by completely different doctors.

Testosterone and Depression (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19625884) (testosterone treatment reduces depression)


Low testosterone levels predict incident depressive illness in older men: effects of age and medical morbidity. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15669883)

Unexplained Fatigue in the Elderly (http://www.nia.nih.gov/about/events/2011/unexplained-fatigue-elderly)


Testosterone increases lean body mass in older adults, increases grip strength, and increases self-reported physical function. There are inconsistent effects on observed physical function. Preliminary data suggests testosterone increases mitochondrial area. In open-label trials in hypogonadal men, testosterone improved mood and increased energy or pep. One potential explanation for testosterone’s effects on fatigue is increased hemoglobin concentration.

[Stephenie S]

"Oh, my testosterone is low! I have no energy at all. I am so weak and tired all the time!"

Yeah, right.

Can I use that as an excuse for not cleaning the house today?

Have you noticed the massive advertizing campaign being run on American TV lately? The big money world (Industrial Pharmacology and Madison Avenue) has decided that testosterone is the new mega drug. They are trying to convince every male over 45 (a big market, right?) that they need to take testosterone to combat the latest "disease", low "T".

It's hard not to be influenced by this sort of thing.

Years ago Madison Avenue had everyone worrying about "regularity". Take a laxative so you poop every day.

Then it was Prozac. Let's get every American woman on a mood enhancer so she can forget about the incredibly degrading life situation of living as a second class citizen in a patriarchal society.

Next it was heartburn. Take Zantac or Prilosec every day so you can go right on eating vast amounts of unhealthy food.

Now it's Low "T". Think how much money there is in getting every American male taking a testosterone supplement.

I'm sorry guys, but half the world's population has low testosterone (women). And considering that women do MOST of the actual work that keeps the world running, I don't think that low testosterone has much to do with low energy. And we live longer too.

When you start taking spiro in the relatively massive doses needed to block testosterone your blood pressure drops. This is the source of most of the complaints about spiro. Just fact. Sorry.

S

[sandra-leigh]

"Oh, my testosterone is low! I have no energy at all. I am so weak and tired all the time!"

Your attempt at rebuttal is equivalent to saying that age-related Oesteoperosis is not linked to low estrogen levels in women because men have even lower estrogen levels and men don't get that kind of age-related osteo.

There are several parallel biological reactions triggered by estrogen or testosterone, but those parallel reactions need sufficient levels of one of the two to work. Low testosterone without sufficient estrogen to trigger those reactions is known to correlate to fatigue and to depression, and testosterone treatment is known to often improve mood and to lessen depression, even if the biological mechanisms for this are not yet known. See my previous postings for appropriate links.

[Raquel June]

Stephenie S -


As much as I enjoy being a smartass, I'm not looking to fight with you.

I remember in late 2009, I was moving to Arizona to transition, and I had a lot of stuff going through my mind, and you said so many nice things to me, and sent me a lot of PMs that I still have in my inbox. I'm not looking to gush too much and go OT, but it meant so much to me. You're a really awesome person and I hope I haven't offended you.

And I just got a PM from someone telling me that she was on spiro and just fell and hit her head on the side of the bed recently. So I'll give ya that, it's a real issue!

I was mostly just trying to give my reaction to Spiro, that it affects people differently, and I never seemed to get used to it.

When I was in high school, I was in track, and I worked really hard and did really well. When I came home exhausted, I would sit on the couch and watch TV for awhile, and my BP would really drop. And then when I would stand up, a lot of times I would see spots and get lightheaded. Sometimes the floating spots would get very intense and everything would start to get dark. So I would sit back down until the feeling went away. But I thought it felt kinda cool, so one time I just kept standing and stretched my arms out and closed my eyes ... everything got dark. I went completely unconscious, and next thing I remember, I was confused and having a seizure on the floor, rolling around, and I couldn't stop banging my head into the side of the couch. It was kinda scary, because I couldn't see or hear, and then my hearing came back, and a few seconds later my sight started to come back. Maybe it wasn't a real seizure, but I definitely couldn't control myself. I couldn't see. Everything was black. And I was just rolling back and forth banging my head into the lever that reclined the chair on the end of the couch. So, from then on I sat back down when I felt dizzy.

I think it's really interesting that I had that problem with very low BP back then, but when I was on Spiro, it really didn't make me feel like my BP was low. It just gave me a headache and made me feel super dehydrated.

[Diana L]

I don't want to hijack this thread but I have a question that is somewhat related. I just started spiro and estradiol today at a small dose that I will increase over the next few weeks. My dr says it is ok to take the spiro once a day but wants the estradiol spread out to where I take it 3 times a day. What I have seen here is that people split the spiro to twice a day and the estradiol once a day? I know we can't discuss dosages here but it appears to be the mostly recommended dose. I'm just concerned if it is necessary to split the estradiol into 3 dimes a day.

Diana L

[sandra-leigh]

[QUOTE=Raquel June;2998733]As much as I enjoy being a smartass, I'm not looking to fight with you. [...]

Heh. Some confusion here.

You suggested lower-than-normal male testosterone can affect tiredness, not just through spiro beyond blood pressure. Stephanie disagrees with that and attributes it to spiro itself, especially spiro's effect on blood pressure. And I am supplying supporting evidence an arguments that lower-than-normal testosterone in a GM can contribute to fatigue and depression, and that Stephanie's logic on the point is not satisfactory, so I am supporting your point.

My own experience on the matter of the link between testosterone and weakness (rather than fatigue) is that it is not clear that my peak lifting strength is any different now, but for sure I have quite poor muscle endurance now. Lift but not hold. Muscle recovery seems decently fast, though, so the effect is as if my muscles quickly use up a local store of energy, after which a brief rest is needed to resupply from the local area.

I have little visible sign of muscle mass reduction from HRT. My upper arms might perhaps be less taut. My leg muscles have expanded: some pants I could wear before now will not go up more than a couple of inches above my knee. My wife says "It's fat!", but as it felt firm to me, I asked my masseuse, who replied that, No, it was definitely muscle, that I had unusually strong leg muscles. And I'm pretty sure my fundament is bigger now, but again it is firm muscle. When does my bubble-butt arrive in the mail? :heehee:

-------

Diana, are you taking the estradiol orally?

(I am on patches so I cannot answer myself, but other people will need to know the form you are taking it in.)

[Anne Elizabeth]

About 12 years ago I was suffering from fatigue and a T test shod that I was low an my doc prescribed T to compensate. Helped. Now what is not being considered it are you comparing yourself to a female or are you comparing yourself to yourself. A drop in T in a Male can create fatigue and tiredness relative to what that Male was used to. You can not consider a drop in T similar to a female with low T. They are 2 different situations.

[Raquel June]

Heh. Some confusion here.

Yeah, sorry. I totally quoted the wrong post. I was talking to Steph S. :)