US vs. UK

[britney1]

I was reading different post by different people in the forum and noticing where they were from. From what I can tell, it seems that the UK is far more accepting than the US. I would like to invite some discussing amongst the group on this topic. What do you think? Is there a link? I noticed some things such as a higher % of SO's from UK seem to be accepting. Certain gender things such as clothing and manicures also seem to be more accepted. Am I way off base here?

[fionablack]

I am from the UK, and i don't really know how to compare. I guess I would have to be fully out of the closet and have lived in both countries at some point.

As I am firmly in the closet and unlikely to move to the States I am unlikely to get a definite answer on that. I would guess the two countries would not differ that much though.

I guess there might be a different recation if you compare different States as much as anything. I have visited a few States in my time and the people are very different all over.

I see you are from Indiana by the way. I have been there actually. A place called New Albany. I used to know a girl who lived there. She was gorgeous, i was so in love with her for a very long time. Never worked out though. Seems like another lifetime now. Whereabouts are you from in Indiana?

[Sophie]

For the record, I'm in the UK and my Fiance is fully aware and involved with my girly side. I spend every night cuddling her while we both wear satin night gowns.

I go shopping (even if it's just window shopping) with her most weekends. On sundays I get to be her girlfriend, fully dressed, and i give her a manicure and cook her a nice roast dinner. Sophie is here for her only. I have not really been out in a while, but i'm happy staying in and making myself pretty for her.

not sure if this will help you in your quest to see if the UK is more understanding or not, but it's my input!

Sophie

[Kimberly]

My mum and I were talking a little about this today, actually... we were visiting uni's and my dad was out of the picture, and my mum asked how I was feeling after coming out to them. I found out my Dad was taking it the hardest:

"Your Dad came from the kind of family where things were expected. You settled down, had a family and lived nice and peacefully. You never talked within the family - not really. He's a man... he doesn't understand and doesn't talk because he's a man, and because of his family." Well, from that, and from what I've read there seems to be one thing that really seperates the US and the UK:

In the US, people talk about how they actually feel - you guys are much more open. In the Uk, we just don't talk about it... stiff upper lip, and all that. (ugh... i hate it.)

Like this example: when I shop and buy fem stuff, I tend to get weird looks. Maybe I can just notice them better because of the acting ;), but I do get looks. Now, I swear if I was in the US, that person would have said something, rather than just give me a strange look. That's the thing in this damn country - we never tell people anything. We're too stiff upper lip in that sense. Don't want to cause any offence! Plus, it just isn't our problem!

That's the only major thing I can think of. It seems to me that shows like Jerry Springer tend to ridicule it more than we do. The british media tend to either not mention it, or they make programmes dealing with it in a documentary sense. (One show by the TV artist Grayson Perry which I can't remember the name of, and one programme on teenage transitioning and GID called "Teenage Transexuals".... all very factual.)

xx

[Sherlyn]

.......and theres quite a few of us Canadian girls in this forum

[Emma Chase]

I grew up in the UK before moving to Canada a few years back. In the experience I have been exposed to, both are as bad as each other. Okay in North America it's more acceptable to go and chat with a councilor over the stresses of life etc. Back in the UK it's still a kind of taboo thing to admit to openly.

Cross dressing is still a frowned on topic on both sides of the pond, just from my experience. Its like were 'odd' or a danger to society for some strange reason… I think it’s due to some of the older generation and the fact people are not educated on the whole dressing thing.

In my view people should not be concerned with how others dress it’s none of their business, but unfortunately human beings ALWAYS like to get involved with things that do not concern them and then judge on what they do not fully understand.

If you go far enough back in history, men wore tights and skirt like garments.

A frustrated

Emma :mad:

[Billijo49504]

I don't think you Britts have what we have. You don't have any rednecks and bible thumpers. I don't know which is worse...BJ :confused:

[Kaye_martin]

I don't think you Britts have what we have. You don't have any rednecks and bible thumpers. I don't know which is worse...BJ :confused:

Billijo: The UK has 'yobs' :(

kaye_martin

[Lauren_T]

We Yanks can trace much of our national character back to the English, but we fall short in many ways, and one of those ways is in our sheeplike conformity.

Let me please recycle two commentaries I made in ancient threads...

1.
...
Nowhere else on Earth are the rights of the individual respected and treasured as they are in England (despite what you may have been taught in an American classroom...:) ). They invented "live and let live" while we generally pay lip service to it, busy programming the next generation of conformist consumerist clones!
...

2.
...I'm an Anglophile and damn proud of my (partly) English ancestry, and I'm here to tell you that I've studied this much of my life.

The English, at their best, are THE most civilized people on Earth, and it's England that brought civilization to much of the world. So it shouldn't be surprising that crossdressing is more acceptable to the average Brit than the average American.

Personal eccentricity is and has been for centuries an Englishman's birthright. After all, tolerance, just letting others be, is the major trait of civilized people. Over here, conformity is the order of the day, despite the 60s influence. Also, crossdressing is a time-honoured tradition over there, from Wm. Shakespeare to Monty Python.
...

[Stephanie Brooks]

Over here, conformity is the order of the day, despite the 60s influence.
We're individualists. This is our uniform.

[Lauren_T]

We're individualists. This is our uniform.
And let's not forget: "Join the March Against Conformity!"

[FionaAlexis]

I'm not sure I'm totally a neutral bystander being ex-UK and having lived in London for 5 years but I think the general premise that the British are more accepting is probably correct.

Its part of the British culture and deep in their psyche to be tolerant...and eccentrics are often venerated. Cross dressing has been a key component of British comedy for at least the last century from music hall performer, Dan Leno through to Dick Emery and Monty Python right up to the current Little Britain - so the GP there has been exposed to it for yonks.

However, having said that, I wouldn't think that the UK girls would say they have total freedom - and I would doubt that the crossdressing members of the British establishment are likely to stick their heads up above the parapet any time soon.

I would say that the situation in Australia so far as acceptance is concerned would be very similar to the UK and Aussies, generally, are pretty laid back about most things.

Mainstream USA on the other hand seems, as an outsider, to still have that puritanical righteous streak. And maybe cross dressing will only become acceptable when it is not tainted as sinful and perceived as a symptom of loose morals and a decadent society.

Fiona xx

[Helana]

I would say the east and west coasts of America are the same as the UK. However travel inland to the redneck states and the religious intolerance meter rises quickly. I would hate to be a CD in middle America.

[britney1]

I would say the east and west coasts of America are the same as the UK. However travel inland to the redneck states and the religious intolerance meter rises quickly. I would hate to be a CD in middle America.

Yea, tell me about it. Like someone said, bible beaters and rednecks have doomed us here in the midwest.

[Adele 2005]

I don't suppose it's so much of a national difference, but more to do with the difference between major urban and rural communities. More specifically, most big cities (by which I mean the ones that are globally significant: London, Paris, New York, Sydney, etc...) are a mix of many different people of various socio-economic groups, ethnic cultures, religions (or none), colours, sexuality, ages, and nationalities. These places are very cosmopolitan, and to happily exist there you have got to be tolerant of diversity. Arguably it's that very diversity that makes such places so vibrant. Also, as large population centres, it's likely that whatever your characteristics there will be other people similar to you there than elsewhere.

That's not to deny that there is an unpleasant underbelly in these places aswell of bigots, homophobes, racists, and so on too. They are everywhere. It's just that they're generally heavily outnumbered by the decent majority who just want to get on with their lives.

Having said all that: I love Holland!

[Sophie]

Billijo: The UK has 'yobs' :(

kaye_martin


I call them CHAVS! angry burberry wearing youths!

[Billijo49504]

I would say the east and west coasts of America are the same as the UK. However travel inland to the redneck states and the religious intolerance meter rises quickly. I would hate to be a CD in middle America.
We do have the rights to protect ourselves though. Is that a lot of makeup in my purse or a Smith & Wesson? ;) That's something you can't do in the UK.:(

[Lauren_T]

We do have the rights to protect ourselves though. Is that a lot of makeup in my purse or a Smith & Wesson? ;) That's something you can't do in the UK.:(That's also something you don't need to do in the UK... :)

I have lived in, among other places, my hometown, Washington DC, Miami and Houston. All three are extremely hardcore cities - well, actually, DC and Miami are very nice cities with an extremely hardcore violent element in certain areas; Houston is a total cesspool.

I am not anti gun, in fact I consider myself a fairly decent shot - targets, I don't hunt. But my point is, I haven't owned a gun since I was 15 and I have never needed one.

The extremists on both sides amuse me. Just because the evidence shows that banning firearm possession disarms only the law-abiding, not the criminals - that doesn't mean every tinfoil-hat loony should be entitled to stockpile antipersonnel weapons either.

[Helana]

We do have the rights to protect ourselves though. Is that a lot of makeup in my purse or a Smith & Wesson? ;) That's something you can't do in the UK.:(

We dont need them, only hardcore criminals carry weapons not yobs who may want to attack us. Pepperspray and stun guns are fine by me. Besides my handbags have no space left to carry guns, too full of the really necessary items!:D

[Rachel Morley]

Well, as a Brit who now permanently lives in the US, I have to say I very much agree with Fiona about it historically being in English humor. I also agree (in a general sense) with Helana about the "coasts thing". I live on the west coast and San Francisco seems very tolerant of almost anybody. I had a weeks vacation in New York City and that also seemed very liberal to me. That said when Marla and I go to London there too there seems a vibe of tolerance going on. As far as the middle of the US goes I wouldn't know about their tolerance of cding, but when we had a stop over in Minneapolis, Minnesota once, I remember we couldn't buy any alcohol on a Sunday :confused:

There was one thing that was a huge surprise for me when I moved to the US, and that was the level of open expression of one's religion .

As far as cding goes, basically, I don't think there's that much difference, but if pressed I would say that generally speaking the UK might be more accepting. Just my 2 cents.

[JMO2]

We do have the rights to protect ourselves though. Is that a lot of makeup in my purse or a Smith & Wesson? ;) That's something you can't do in the UK.:(

I think a metal pen in the right hands could do as much damage as a firearm....:D (Cross or Mont Blanc)

[Helana]

I was just reading today how Elton John will be marrying his partner next month in Britain. That pretty much sums it up. While most American states are busy voting to outlaw gay marriage, the UK now allows it and with little social backlash either. Mind you other European countries and Canada beat us to it. Amongst all the Western countries, America, except the coastal states, is the least tolerant.

[Helen MC]

From reading the "How do you sit" thread and the link to the "Bob Lonsbury" website posted there I can see that there is a very atavistic Butch and Macho attitude persisting in US Male society compared to here in the UK and Western Europe. Correct me please if I am wrong here but the gun carrying , right wing , militaristic Male still sems to be an icon in the US whereas over here he would be considered a bit of a fool and a fossil.

Without being too political, as an illustration I read of two cases recently. One was of an American Man working for a large business who was a Reservist and was called up to fight in Iraq. When he returned home to the USA and went back to work he was greeted by his co-workers and employers as a Hero. Over here in England there was a similar man who was in our Territorial Army (a part time Volunteer Reserve) who on returning to work after fighting in Iraq was considered as a bloody fool by many of his co-workers, the British People being a lot more hostile from the start to being involved in the Iraq War. We also do not have this gun carrying , shooting trip mind-set, that seems to be the case with many American men and boys. For a start it is a Criminal Offence not a RIGHT to own a firearm in the UK unless one has a very difficult to obtain licence. All in all the typical British male does not feel any need to PROVE his masculinity by external and visible actions and is generally more tolerant of anything that is different as long as it is not a threat to him, his wife or his kids.

Anyone care to comment on these points.

[swiss_susan]

Having lived in both the US and UK:

US: Chicago, Washington DC, and Virgina

UK: Scotland, Blackpool, and Basingstoke

I have found that anywhere you go you will find all kinds of people, from the most tolerant, to the most hate filled bigots. Except here is Switzerland where everything is snow covered and tastes lie chocolate. :)

I do think that in the UK there is a greater tendency to avoid public discussion of what is percieved to be a private lifestyle. Where as I find in the States the tendency is to be much more towards, Hey this is what I want to do and I will shout it from the roof tops. Someone mentioned Jerry Springer, that I have always found to be a poor example of anything. After its sole purpose in not even to entertain, but rather to give lots of people something to point at and "hey at least I am not that f*** up!"

Before anyone jumps on my head, I am not specifically talking about us here but rather general societal tendencies.

Either way you look at it we have it a lot better than many. What do you think crossdressers in a culture like Saudi Arabia have to go through.

No we don't live in an ideal world but on the whole I think both the UK and US allow us more freedom than almost anywhere.

After all we are talking about acceptence. If people chose to disaprove of our lifestyle choices thats their right, they can point and laugh, ridicule us. They are exercising the same freedom we do when we go out. Remember freedom is never free.

I really don't mean to offend anyone, and am sorry if I did, but these are only my opinions, and like a**holes everyone has one and they usually stink.

Susan

[Amelie]

If the original question is saying where is CDing more tolerated. (US or UK).

I would have to say countries like Brazil and Phillipenes are way more tolerant. There are more T-girls out and about in these countries that the US or the UK. Even when I lived in NYC, the CD bars had more Philipene girls than white American girls, so I think if we judge a countries tolerance for Cds as which country has the most Cds out and about, then I would think Brazil and the Phillipenes are way more tolerant.

If the UK is more tolerant, then why do the some of the CDs from the UK don't have their pics on the avatars? OK, it might be because of family, friends, jobs, or even their looks, but this is all a part of intolerance, I would have thought that tha UK being so tolerant that having a pic of themselves in the avatar would be no problem.

Now if the mid part of the US is so bad(intolerant), then I must commend the Cds for their bravery. They put a pic up of themselves with the fear from intolerant people, but the UK Cds, what is their reason for fear if their country is more tolerant than the middle part of the US?

[Helana]

Amelie

Yes the Philippines and Asia in general is much more tolerant than the West. They are by no means totally welcoming as any minority group always faces a certain degree of prejudice. The key difference between Asia and the West is that there is no homophobia - gays are not feared nor are they considered evil. There is no need to prove your macho-ness

For me the tolerance level for CD is tied directly to the level of homophobia in your society. And homophobia is linked to right-wing religious doctrine.

[Selina]

If the UK is more tolerant, then why do the some of the CDs from the UK don't have their pics on the avatars? OK, it might be because of family, friends, jobs, or even their looks, but this is all a part of intolerance, I would have thought that tha UK being so tolerant that having a pic of themselves in the avatar would be no problem.
...
but the UK Cds, what is their reason for fear if their country is more tolerant than the middle part of the US?

Well, in my case it's that I haven't actually got any pictures of myself. Though I agree that that's a poor excuse and I shall do something about it...

(Can't comment on the US vs. UK debate, since I've spent almost no time in the US).

Sel.

[Amelie]

Well, in my case it's that I haven't actually got any pictures of myself. Though I agree that that's a poor excuse and I shall do something about it...

(Can't comment on the US vs. UK debate, since I've spent almost no time in the US).

Sel.


Selina, it isn't important if you put a picture of yourself, it doesn't matter either way to me, It's one's words that matter most.

It's just that this type of thread seems to come up often, here and at other forums, even some goth forums. And the response that I always here is that the UK is more tolerant than the US, yet CDs from the terrible, intolerant mid-US are able to post pics of themselves, yet there are some from the tolerant UK who do not post pics. I was just wondering why there are any CDs from the UK that might be afraid to post a pic, if they are so tolerant or at least more tolerant than the mid-US.
I think there is good and bad in both countries, everyone learns to adapt to their surroundings.

[Lauren_T]

It's not complicated.... and it has nothing to do with fear of exposure; CD or not, the average American is more extroverted (and thus more inclined to put a likeness of him/herself up in public) than the average Brit. Fact. :)

[BeckyCath]

I'm in the UK, I'm in Oxford, and i live in an army town to the north of the county, and i have had no problems when i'm out and about.

I have had a few uneducated plebs clock me and make comments, but that doesnt happen now. There is alot of tollerance, as we have a quite liberal media over here, and english politics isn't dominated by religious right wing bigots, all tho Blair would toe the Vatican line given half a chance, even tho he isn't "actually catholic".

When the Gender Recognition Act went through parliament in earlier this year, the House of Lords tried to spanner it, and that was lead by some of the non elected bishops and of course Lord Tebbit himself... so some of our recent legislation hasn't had it too easy. The single sex civil partnership bill was also part of the raft of legislation intorduced by the more leftie element of the Labour government, but some would rather see same sex partnerships recognised with all the same rights as a marriage...

Most folk over here just want to get on with their own lives, and don't want to worry about what others do, and if they have a problem, they largely keep it to themselves, they will rarely say anything to your face, it's more discrete tut tutting...

I have only been to the states once, and that was when i was in denial, so i can't comment...

You've just got to do what feels safe in your own little world, and my little world at the moment is Oxford and the environs, and i know where not to go round here!

Rebecca

[Jasmine Ellis]

Theres one thing we do have us British and you Americans we fight together for the good of the world. "God bless us all"

[freshfrankie]

You ladies mentioned the religious right and the midwest. Remember one thing. Those are the people who put George W. Bush in the White House for two terms. They, just like Mr. Bush, are clueless. They are completely intolerant of anyone unlike themselves or who don't share the same beliefs as they do. It's a scary time in America and unfortunately for the rest of the world also when you have the most powerful country in the world with an idiot as President! Don't be mad at me. I never voted for that MORON!

Love
Jeannie

[Lindahexi]

Lauren, I agree with you 100% about the average American being more extrovert than the average Brit. My avatar pics are always of myself (mostly legs) but I don't show my face for fear of being recognised by family or friends. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to be able to show myself fully to all of you, but I dare not risk it without 'coming out' to everybody first, and that may lead to ridicule or worse. I think here in the UK we are very tolerant of peoples preferences, but crossdressing is still a bit voodoo to some folk, even thogh gay and lesbian are now fully accepted.

Hugs,

Linda.

[Lilith Moon]

My avatar pics are always of myself (mostly legs) but I don't show my face for fear of being recognised by family or friends.

If any of my family/friends said they had recognised me in here I would ask them what they were doing here.

[CaptLex]

Correct me please if I am wrong here but the gun carrying, right wing, militaristic Male still sems to be an icon in the US whereas over here he would be considered a bit of a fool and a fossil.

Without being too political, as an illustration I read of two cases recently. One was of an American Man working for a large business who was a Reservist and was called up to fight in Iraq. When he returned home to the USA and went back to work he was greeted by his co-workers and employers as a Hero.

Anyone care to comment on these points.

Oh, I hope not, Cherub. I really hope the stereotype you describe is not an icon of the U.S. Although, I'm sure it could be in parts of the country. I live in the mostly-tolerant east coast where I think most of us view these people as ridiculous and cartoonish, so I'm a bit frightened to think that the world sees us all like this. :eek:

As far as the American soldier who returned home a hero. I think this illustrates what many people (myself included) feel, which is that we may oppose the war and all the reasons for it, but we don't blame the soldier who puts his life on the line since he is just a man trying to support his family and only a pawn in the politics of the situation.

Sorry, I can't comment on the US v. UK issue, since I've never been to the UK. I just wanted to answer these particular points. I will say, however, that tolerance in the U.S. has a lot to do with where you live in the country, but you can find lots of intolerance all over without looking too hard.

Please let me also make clear that these are only my opinions and should not be considered representative of all Americans. I just want to make sure people outside the U.S. realize that we don't all think the same way, just as I'm sure not everyone in other countries has the same opinions.

[freshfrankie]

In the USA you can be a male, be drunk, obnoxcious and belligerant at a football game,come on to women at work and bars, go into a gun store and buy a 357 magnum, pee in the bushes and everyone thinks it's ok . He's just a guy. But let us ladies walk into a womens shoe store dressed and try on a nice pair of mules(I love them!) and women will move their children away from us, men will want to beat us up and drive a stake into our hearts. What's wrong with that picture? I hate to say this but in America religious,racial and sexual bigotry is alive and flourishing. Why do others care so much what others do, believe in or what color they are and what sexual orientation they are if they are hurting no one? I just don't get it. All I can say to those people is"GET A LIFE!" Hugs

Love Jeannie

[Fallen Angel]

I think it has to do with on place or another.I think it has to do with how confertable we feel and the areas that we live in lager cities are more tolerant of us where as maybe a small town isnt as likely to so.Liverpoool could be compared to say california or new york where you have such a melting pot of people its all socaily acceptable or tolorable.And I also factor in how long some ones been out and about as well.Ive been cding for over 20+years and out in pupblic for over 15 and im very comfertable being out for some its still new for them here and abroad.im om yim and there are girls that wont do voice but will do cam because they dont want to break there majic of being la fem I guess what im trying to say is to each there own and one whay or a nother they have had to courage to be here picture or not

[Lisa Golightly]

I think it is something to do with our innate eccentricity. There is something about men dressing as women that is as English as tea, umbrellas, bowler hats, fish and chips and double decker buses. Our comedy is steeped in it and our theatre made the idea of boys dressing as girls an established norm. As Noel Coward would probably have said about crossdressers 'They all look so positively lovely and seem so terribly nice'. Toddle pip old things :)

[Sam-antha]

Just been and had a peek at the FRAPPER map locations of members.
US ones are east and west coaster and nothing between
Guess that Helena is right with the meter readings.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Right then. Jolly good thread. :-)

I'm from Central Illinois, it's not the Bible Belt, but it's not SF either.

We've got our "religious" contimgent here, a good portion of whom are immigrants from the Bible Belt because of economic reasons. They wear their faith on their sleeves, they don't know that some of the long timers consider such behaviour somewhat rude.

But it's not like the region is uncivilised. I'm visibly different, I've got long hair, pierced ears, women's jeans and sneakers (trainers). Anyone who paid attention could see the shaved arms in summer, not withstanding the watch and charm bracelet. I've been female pronouned in drab, (from one little girl: "She looks like a girl")but other than that, nothing happens. No name calling, no football (american football) louts going aggro. I've only been asked my gender once, in a fast food drive through, which didn't bother me as much as two other fast food workers behind the one who asked discussing my gender within earshot.

I've been en femme a few times in my hometown, not as often as I've been femme in the chicago burbs. I didn't feel as comfortable as I do elsewhere but there wasn't any reaction that I could see. I've been to Walgreens, Fashion Bug and the local grocery store as well as the local county mental health service.

I do feel "safer" in the larger towns though. That's just how I feel and not empirical data or whatnot. Maybe I just need to work on my comfort zone.

Veronica

[Jocelyn Renee]

What a great thread! Hypocrisy, bile, name-calling, Christian bashing, smug intellectual superiority, ill-informed BS, and some good ol' fashion America bashing all in one convenient place. Why it's a bigoted a-hole's dream world! Oh wait, I'm not at my favorite neocon Website; I'm among the most caring, non-judgemental people on planet earth. Why I must have become confused by all the loud claims of tolerance and pleas for acceptance.

I'm mixed race (black/white), I'm married to a white woman, and I live right in the center of the redneck universe (Morgantown, West Virginia USA - a Red State to boot). Yet, I still manage to put on a dress and go out dancing every week. I still manage to go to restaurants and to the mall. Strangely, not one crazed, macho, cowboy Christer with a 357 Magnum has tried to drive a steak through my heart. You know though, there was that one time - when I was 5 years old and living in the paragon of acceptance, Los Angeles, CA - that an angry mob tried to stone my mother, brother, and I to death and then shot a few rounds at our car as we escaped.

I'm a Christian; my wife's 34 immediate family members are Christians; a significant number of my friends are Christians. Most of us go to Church twice a week and - gasp - even read the Bible sometimes. Their response when I came out to them: "Why would you ever think we'd think any differently about you? Can we come along next time you go out?" Guess they must have missed the Christer newsletter urging them to kill us all and cleanse the world. Most of the people I'm closest to are all gay, les, or TG; many have quite different political views from my own. All this time I've managed to be their friend. I've managed to not think any less of them because they think differently. My friends and family have managed to not have a problem with them. We've never called them a name. Thank God I visited this thread! Now that I know what a Christian's really like, I'm gonna have to wipe them from the earth. Shame; I really loved those people.

My 78 year old father-in-law lied about his age and joined the US Army when he was 16 so he could fight in the Pacific during WWII. After 43 years of active and reserve service, he retired as a Brig. Gen. In his lifetime he was a semi-pro baseball and football player; he started several businesses; he raised 6 children and is blessed with 18 grandchildren; he earned 7 post-graduate degrees; he was a Dean and professor for 26 years; at the age of 73 he helped found a Christian school, served as it's first Chancellor, and operated the equipment that dug the foundation and raised the steel; he is the major financial contributor at our church; when he retired, he had accumulated more than 5,000 letters of praise from colleagues and students who's lives he had changed. But, he's a Bible thumping neocon, so obviously he's not worthy of the air that he breathes.

When my own son volunteered to join the military and then volunteered to go to Afghanistan, I suppose I should have consulted with this thread. That way I would have known that he was nothing more than a macho cowboy who wanted to carry a gun simply to prove he is a man. His job in Afghanistan was to go out every day and buy products from local merchants. They would take these products back to the base warehouse and add them to food and needed supplies that were provided by American taxpayers - some of them are probably dirty Christian scum. Later, they would go out amongst the villages and distribute the food and supplies to people. Sometimes they would bring back children and adults for medical treatment. At least that's what he told me he did; I'm sure this thread could give me the *real* reason he was there. He could have been home playing Halo on his XBox, just like every other selfish, arrogant American. Instead, he chose to risk his life to help people half a world away. Had I come to this thread first, I would have known that a Bible thumping, redneck, macho cowboy like him, only wanted to prove what a man he was. If I would have known that, I could have kept him safe and sound at home. Why if that's all he wanted to prove, he could have just driven a steak through some gay guy's heart.

I'm 43 years old. In my lifetime I've had crosses burned on my lawn; a mob tried to kill me; I had an ex-girlfriend out me, costing me my job, my daughter, nearly all my so-called friends, and nearly my sanity. I can honestly say that I've never been more disgusted than after reading this thread. The overwhelming hubris it must take to advocate some of these positions is truly astonishing.

With a straight face, you demand the right to express your opinion and live the way you want, yet you indignantly deny the same rights to anyone who dares disagree with your point of view.

After spending centuries bathing in the blood of their fellow countrymen and sitting idly by while evil festered in their midst, Europe is now the paragon of virtue and a 229 year old country is solely responsible for absolutely every evil that exists on this planet. No, better yet, it's George Bush. As soon as we get the "proper" kind of leadership in Washington, the rest of the world will love us again. Oh, how I long for that day!

51% of mt fellow countrymen are retarded. You're much smarter than we are, after all, Europe agrees with you. Anyone who lives in a Red State is not to be tolerated. They're stupid and bigoted. Not at all like their coastal superiors. You hear that Europe, not all of us are like that. Us coastal dwellers are just like you. Please like us...pretty please?!

The US is a festering pool of ignorance, crime, and brutality. The most violent areas are all Blue State urban areas, populated mostly by caring, intellectually superior beings. Don't let that fool you though, the blight and crime is fully the fault of the Red State Chisters, due to their lack of compassion, money grubbing ways, and their bigoted nature. The rest of the world is kite flying and puppies, well, except where the US has screwed it up. There's no crime, violence, or ethnic unrest in the whole of Europe, well, except where there is crime, violence, and ethnic unrest - that's Bush's fault too though. Bosnia? Spain? France? Chechnya? Middle East? Africa? All the fault of Bush and the Christers, and maybe the Jews too. All the Christians I know living happy, productive lives, while somehow managing to leave the homos alone or maybe even befriend one or two? Just an illusion. My betters told me so.

You know what? I'm tired of listening to your sermons on tolerance while you giggle and nod in agreement at every hate-filled polemic directed at small-town, Red State, Christians like me. I'm tired of being told I'm intellectually inferior and too stupid to know you're right. I'm tired of being told that I'm a rabid, hate-filled plague upon the world because I am a Christian. I'm tired of being told that Christians practice insufferable evil for opposing gay marriage, while you sit in silence in the face of the true evil you bear witness too. I'm tired of being told that I'm not nuanced or cultured enough by a people who invented, exported, and tolerated barbarity - the very same people who we've spent enormous blood and treasure defending and protecting the last 60 years. I'm tired of your condescending, smiling face telling me that everything my eyes can see is a lie.

Most of all, I'm tired of this putrid arrogance and hypocrisy. Amid the shouts of, "Haliburton", "No Blood for Oil", and "Abu Grahib", not one voice is raised in anger against the brutality of the other side - not one. You have no praise for the 50+ million people liberated in Iraq and Afghanistan. There is no condemnation of the butchers who beheaded a peace activist today. You care not that there are stirrings of freedom in other parts of the world. You stand up thunderously when a murdering piece of s*** is lead around on a dog collar, but you sit in stony silence amid tales of rape, meat grinders, and mass graves visited on the innocent. You worship the UN and blame America for a 150,000 civilian deaths, yet not one word about the rapes of children and the failure of the UN to protect the victims of appalling genocide in Africa.

Sure, every now and again a feeble voice calls on someone, somewhere to do something. Your voice is hushed because the ones you call out too are the very ones you despise. The ones you malign with your pithy forum postings. The ones you and all your loving friends laugh at and look upon with amusement at their pitiful lives of friends, family, Bingo games, and bake sales. You call upon them because you can't manage it for yourselves. All you can manage is hatred for Bush, hatred for America, and hatred for people like me and the 51% of my countrymen who have the audacity to think differently than you.

My father-in-law is a hero. My brother-in-law, my brother, my cousins, and my friends are heros. When my son came home from Afghanistan, I hailed him as a hero, because he is a hero. He's a better man than you and he's a better man than me. Men and women like him give their lives and spill their blood so we have the freedom to sit at our keyboards talking about painting our nails, debating whether England or America is safer for a man in a dress, or complaining that we can't go outside in that dress for fear that some marauding band of Bible thumping Jeebus freaks will come around and stab us in the heart. If I may, I have some very un-Christian advice...Get some f****** perspective! And the next time you're looking for a perfect example of bigotry, intolerance, and arrogance, take a look in the mirror.

[Stephanie Brooks]

Jocelyn Renee,

Great post Lady!

[Lauren_T]

Hello, Jocelyn. You certainly don't need to ask anyone's approval of what you want to say, least of all mine. That said, I certainly respect the sincerity and fire in your words. Most of us would readily admit that we all need to vent at times, and I'm sure I speak for most all of us when I say, 'we hear you.'

However, after reading your post I had to double-check exactly what thread I was reading:

...
Hypocrisy, bile, name-calling, Christian bashing, smug intellectual superiority, ill-informed BS, and some good ol' fashion America bashing
...My word, that's a lotta accusations of some pretty mean stuff.

Funny, I didn't find much trace of those things you've listed. And since you provided no examples, we're left to wonder just exactly where you read these things.

Yes, we respect your anger. Yet those are some rather judgemental accusations. Some of them would at least appear to be quite exaggerated and the rest merely mystifying.

It seems, that in your anger, you have been led to attribute to us all sorts of violent, vitriolic statements that were not made. "Kill us all" "wipe from the earth" "stake through the heart" "dirty Christian scum" are just a few.

No one said these things. I know; I just checked.

But one that stands out rather strongly is the 'Christian bashing' bit. I have, as I said, reread this entire thread. Didn't see a thing critical of Christians.

Or are you possibly referring to the strong, highly justified disapproval, dislike and distaste many CDs and nonCDs feel for Bible-thumpers?

If so, then you are obviously labouring under the tragic misapprehension that 'Bible-thumper' is a synonym for 'Christian.' But this is not so.

All Bible-thumpers are Christians; however, not all Christians are Bible-thumpers.

The definition of a Christian may be said to include any individual who sincerely attempts to observe the teachings of the man Jesus of Nazareth, aka Christ.

In rather strong contast, the prototypical Bible-thumper is a sanctimonious, smug, self-righteous, hypocritical, prying, totalitarian, elitist, bigoted, intolerant, judgemental, authoritarian, anti-democratic, arrogant, gullible, holier-than-thou, paternalistic, egocentric control freak who endeavours to force his or her fundamentalist beliefs on everyone possible. And their mothers dress them funny.


I confess that I suffer from this horrid habit of quoting myself rather than writing something new when the talk veers toward an already visited topic, so, due to a paucity of invention on my part, here I do it again:


I ... say that if Christians continue to allow judgmental bigots to pass themselves off as representatives of Christianity, then what do they expect the rest of the world to see all of them as?

Christians who take umbrage at how they're portayed in the media and such would be well advised to quit shooting at the messenger and turn their attention to disavowing the bigoted hypocrites in their midst, as they are the reason for the bad press that Christians say they receive! Clean up your own house first, I believe the phrase goes...

No one in this thread - or this Forum - bashed Christians.

And as for the rest of your judgements of us? Why not simply address the guilty parties indidually and see what they might have to say, hmm? :confused: I'd imagine that would go a long way toward clearing up any remaining misunderstandings. :)

[Helana]

Well said Lauren. I did not know that crossdressers who profess fustration and even anger at people who are intollerant of diversity are the enemy.

Sorry Jocelyn but your anger seems to be patriotic and politically motivated and I for one am at a complete loss as to why you could even think these things about others here. What has Iraq got to do with crossdressing? But I respect your right to express your views even if I do not understand them:(

Hatred is self-defeating and pointless. If you want to view the rest of the world as your enemy then that is your choice but nothing good will come from it.

[Barbara B]

If any of my family/friends said they had recognised me in here I would ask them what they were doing here.

My thoughts excactly Lilith:)

[Helen MC]

Jocelyn, your post has confirmed all my observations.

[Lauren_T]

Well, it would appear that, by means of her "drive-by flaming" - stopping just long enough to toss a flash-bang grenade into the middle of a peaceful discussion, then disappearing - she has succeeded in breaking up what she obviously feels was a combined Klan klavern, Nazi rally and Black Mass.

We'll not be hearing from her again in this thread...