Effect of the drugs used prior to GRS

[Pythos]

The hormones used as part of the transformation procedure, would they by chance bring on a kind of irational attraction to hyper-masculine men?

Ex. A person you know states how they dislike "macho" men, scruffy beards, just most things that go with macho men. Then when they are placed onto the drugs prior to sex reasignment they seem to suddenly find such male models to be attractive. Males character models like Karl Urban, playing either Judge Dredd, or another male model called "priest", which for all intents and purposes is a scruffy looking vampire.

A friend of mine that had no attraction to such male models (models I truly think are outdated and kinda gross), has gotten an attraction to such....and can really not explain why, just says that that man is "sexy"

**I am sorry, I omitted an important thing. The individual is intersexed. The doctors messed up early on and gave a mix of drugs that were more aimed for transsexuals and those really messed things up. The drugs administered were supposed to correct bad issues with cramps and other issues.....they have NOT done anything, but mood swings, and other characteristics have been evident, and in the last three months these issues have gotten worse.**

[Marleena]

I have read a study of MTF transsexuals where a few of the TS women's sexual attraction had changed with HRT. Some who had no previous interest in men found themselves attracted to men. So yes I believe it is possible.

[ReineD]

I've read several M2F TSs (who thought they were hetero for most of their lives), write that they were increasingly attracted to men the further along they got with HRT. A few of these members have analyzed this and have come to the conclusion that the attraction they thought they felt towards women prior to transition was in fact a rather deep feeling of admiration and sisterhood which combined with a then male libido (prior to HRT), gave a mistaken impression they were sexually attracted to GGs.

[Anna Lorree]

Yes, sometimes it seems to happen. There are arguments over whether the person's orientation changes, or whether they always had such an inclination, but masked it because they were fulfilling their earlier male social role. Kind of a glass half empty or half full debate, but important to the gay community who steadfastly say there is no changing orientation. If you are interested in the whole mess, there is a book I read entitled "When the Opposite Sex Isn't" (http://www.amazon.com/When-Opposite-Isnt-Male---Female/dp/0789034476/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349195434&sr=8-1&keywords=when+the+opposite+sex+isn%27t).

Anna

[Frances]

The hormones used as part of the transformation procedure, would they by chance bring on a kind of irational attraction to hyper-masculine men?

Why is an attraction to hyper-masculine men irrational? Is a man's attraction to Kim Kardashian irrational too?

[Aprilrain]

I've read several M2F TSs (who thought they were hetero for most of their lives), write that they were increasingly attracted to men the further along they got with HRT.

wouldn't that mean they are still hetero? ie a woman who is attracted to men.

[Pythos]

Frances, I do not wish for this to be taken too off topic, but the reason it is irrational is because there is NO reason for this attraction other that "But it's THAT man, Karl effing Urban". The individual in question was beaten and raped by such a male figure as well, so it just confuses me. The person has had an aversion to the "macho man" look and persona, but since being put on these pills, slowly has become attracted to what can only be termed "violent" men. Male characters in shows like Spartacus, Cold and emotionless figures like Judge Dredd, and so on. This change is fairly recent FOLLOWING, an adjustment to the birth control pills she was put on.

My question however pertained to whether or not these changes are indeed due to the drugs. These drugs were meant to correct a seriously painful menstrual cycle, which they have done nothing for, but have changed my friend's moods drastically, and so on. I don't think she is on the correct pills, and I am concerned.

[ReineD]

wouldn't that mean they are still hetero? ie a woman who is attracted to men.

*sigh* Picky, picky, picky. lol :)

Ok, allow me to change my statement to:

"I've read several M2F TSs (who thought they were attracted to women for most of their lives), write that they were increasingly attracted to men the further along they got with HRT."

I think that Pythos and others got the gist of my meaning. :p



My question however pertained to whether or not these changes are indeed due to the drugs. These drugs were meant to correct a seriously painful menstrual cycle, which they have done nothing for, but have changed my friend's moods drastically, and so on. I don't think she is on the correct pills, and I am concerned.

Pythos, you're referring to your gf! She's been distancing herself from you for some time now and I'm sorry but I get the impression this is just another way for her to distance herself even further.

[Aprilrain]

The real question, Pythos, is, why are you still letting this girl jerk you around?

[Frances]

Frances, I do not wish for this to be taken too off topic, but the reason it is irrational is because there is NO reason for this attraction other that "But it's THAT man, Karl effing Urban". The individual in question was beaten and raped by such a male figure as well, so it just confuses me. The person has had an aversion to the "macho man" look and persona, but since being put on these pills, slowly has become attracted to what can only be termed "violent" men. Male characters in shows like Spartacus, Cold and emotionless figures like Judge Dredd, and so on. This change is fairly recent FOLLOWING, an adjustment to the birth control pills she was put on.

My question however pertained to whether or not these changes are indeed due to the drugs. These drugs were meant to correct a seriously painful menstrual cycle, which they have done nothing for, but have changed my friend's moods drastically, and so on. I don't think she is on the correct pills, and I am concerned.

The pills may have increased her libido. Unfortunately, some people who were abused seek to recreate the abuse throughout their lives, especially if they were young when it happened. There is a link between their sexuality and the event. She may also have always liked that type of guy, but was suppressing her feelings before the drugs.

One thing: your language denies her any agency. She was not put on drugs; she started taking them. Her being attracted to someone means she has agency. It is her will.

[elizabethamy]

...important to the gay community who steadfastly say there is no changing orientation.


I don't see a contradiction here. If a person takes cross-sex hormones to change (or emphasize, or feed, or strengthen) the gender character of the brain, wouldn't it stand to reason that a sexual orientation change could be possible? Which still wouldn't leave the gay community any way to "change sexual orientation," short of switching genders, which, if you're not transsexual to begin with, would be a catastrophic mistake.

This issue is up there with the transgender phenomenon itself: obviously a reality, but hard if not impossible to say why.

Men are icky, though.

elizabethamy

[Frances]

I don't see a contradiction here. If a person takes cross-sex hormones to change (or emphasize, or feed, or strengthen) the gender character of the brain, wouldn't it stand to reason that a sexual orientation change could be possible? Which still wouldn't leave the gay community any way to "change sexual orientation," short of switching genders, which, if you're not transsexual to begin with, would be a catastrophic mistake.

This issue is up there with the transgender phenomenon itself: obviously a reality, but hard if not impossible to say why.

Men are icky, though.

Was there a change in orientation here?

[Stephenie S]

You show a misunderstanding of transgender hormone therapy. There is little connection between birth control pills and the hormone therapy TG women "take" to aid in their transition.

That said, like Frances, I too fail to see why an attraction to "hyper" masculine men is irrational.

Stephie

[Pythos]

I am sorry, I omitted an important thing. The individual is intersexed. The doctors messed up early on and gave a mix of drugs that were more aimed for transsexuals and those really messed things up. The drugs administered were supposed to correct bad issues with cramps and other issues.....they have NOT done anything, but mood swings, and other characteristics have been evident, and in the last three months these issues have gotten worse.

Why am I allowing her to Jerk me around? I am here asking for information and advice in concern for a friend. That is what she is right now, and likely will always be, especially if she is now attracted to that sort of male image that I myself find repulsive and really do not want to emulate. That being said SHE has made efforts to re-unite. She has majorly cut back on drinking, smoking, and working like a nut bar. She is putting effort into keeping at least a friendship. I am not about to shoot her down for that. Long ago she said when she got put on these drugs that if the mixture was wrong undesirable changes could occur. In the early stages this indeed happened, then they go it right, and she was fine...kinda. Then recently there was another change....that change in the mix was three months ago.


One thing: your language denies her any agency. She was not put on drugs; she started taking them. Her being attracted to someone means she has agency. It is her will.

My language is that of someone that has little knowledge in what is invovled here aside from the research I have tried to do, and what she has told me. She WAS put on these drugs by her doctor when she was having very bad bleeding and cramps. This was not fully voluntary. She needed these drugs.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

in the end, its very unlikely that these drugs are causing her to change what kind of man attracts her..

i hope she gets better

[STACY B]

I think that's a bunch of Bull ,,I think that if a Guy changes genders an swears he's straight an once he is in the Mix so far that he will relent cuz of being so far gone that he might as well jump all the way ,,, Kinda like swimming ,,, Get in up to your knees an go a little deeper an then just jump in an get Wet . It's just the stigma of being trans an gay that puts a bad light on it all ,,, If you change all the way why not do what cha want after its all said an done . An Don't attack me ,, Remember I'm a Frail little girl ,,, So go pick on someone your own size . LOL,,,,,,,,

[Stephenie S]

I too hope she gets better.

Stephie

[BRANDYJ]

*sigh* Picky, picky, picky. lol :)

Pythos, you're referring to your gf! She's been distancing herself from you for some time now and I'm sorry but I get the impression this is just another way for her to distance herself even further.


The real question, Pythos, is, why are you still letting this girl jerk you around?

This girl has lied to you since day one and hhas been jerking your chain ever since. I don't understand how you can believe a thing she says. Her attraction to the kind of guy you mentioned has always been there, and her telling you now is just another way to distance herself from you by finally telling you the truth about what she's attracted to.

[Pythos]

She has lied....but with me has stopped. All she has told me in the last 5 months has been the truth and verified by other sources. Also, I know she has cut back on the drinking seeing as when she accompanied me to club last week, she practically spat out her old favorite concoction of Heinekin and vodka, and could barely finish one reg beer. She had ONE cig and is switching to electric. I am proceeding with caution. NONE of her friends ever noted her liking that kinda male, this to them is new as well, they have asked me what was going on with her. So, no, this is new. I am NOT putting all that much effort in. She has been the one that initiates. What should I do, tell her to eff off, and have her be upset? Possibly sink into depression AGAIN which is where she was at before we two met. When her friends tell me I am the best Boyfriend she has ever had...I listen. Also, I have asked straight out, should I leave her life. The answer has been NO. So if she did not want me around, if she did not like me, if she was "distancing" herself from me, then why when given the out she does not take it. Why does she keep me on her friends list on FB, and WHY does she stay in contact?

She is quite messed up, and sadly we may never get back together, but I am there as her friend. She has stated to me that she is surprised that I did not just ditch her like all the others.

Okay with that out, it seems that yes indeed the drugs could be affecting her. I have talked to others, that are on birth control and they stated that stuff really messes with ones mind if the mix is incorrect. I just needed some input, and I appreciate the concern. When someone enters my life, unless they completely and utterly screw me over, I am there for them. Even that twit from two years ago, if she came back and needed help and support, she would get it. I don't just toss friends over.

If my ex, really cleans up, and does ever want to genuinely try again, we will lay out ground rules, and definitely try again. If someone enters my life that makes her look not so great...well then my U-boat will sail, and she will lose me in that aspect of life. I am no catch, but I think compared to her past relationships I was pretty good, at least from what others have said.

Now please can we get back to the original question. Forget about who it is, though keeping in mind the individual is intersexed and NOT TS.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Ill stay with the intersex side here, as thats my side.

To answer a ? like that has a number of factors an intersex person can have both sets of thinking some of cause its only one way our hormones are different & can respond in different ways. theres no hard & fast set of it can only be this way or that way. okay.

i know how im wired & it wont change if im on meds or not in fact no meds did much for me because of my own hormones my body has rejected meds for years so if they do happen to work im a little surprised , yet there were other changes not related to how i see men or women.

The other factor is some meds can change the mind , here we are getting in to hard drugs & the longer a person is on them then yes it can effect ones mind to the point of being like a zombe. with out the info of the drugs or meds i cant tell, again dose rate can alter very quickly & put one in a commer like indused state , trust me i do know about that, & what they can do.

Dont discount what some meds can do & again the person concerned & how they react to them male & female can be very different as well .

...noeleena...

[CharleneT]

I am not a doc, but I seriously doubt that HRT - of any form - can change your sexual orientation. I think it may be a bit of a crutch to think so in fact. BC preps are really small doses of those hormones targeted at doing little other than controlling a woman's cycle.

I hope your friend gets good help. From reading the above posts it seems that she has multiple problems and it could be hard to solve one without progress on several. You are a good friend to stand by her ;)

[Raquel June]

Why is an attraction to hyper-masculine men irrational? Is a man's attraction to Kim Kardashian irrational too?

An attraction to Kim Kardashian's body isn't irrational. But any man who has heard the woman talk would be totally irrational to still be attracted to the woman herself.



The individual in question was beaten and raped by such a male figure as well, so it just confuses me.

That should clear things up for you. The woman has been raped, and you birth control is what's making her nutty? Try blaming it on the fact that she needs years of therapy. My ex started cheating on me, and when I left, the first guy she started dating looked a lot like the guy who raped and stabbed her when she was 14.

And honestly, I don't see what's confusing about an attraction to Karl Urban. He's a sexy guy. He's got a sexy accent. Nerdy girls like him. He was in Xena and LotR. He's Bones in Star Trek for Christ's sake. He's not exactly a neanderthal.



One thing: your language denies her any agency. She was not put on drugs; she started taking them. Her being attracted to someone means she has agency. It is her will.

Exactly. She is responsible for her actions. It hurts to lose a relationship, but it is basically a stalker mentality that puts you in the mindset of thinking, "She doesn't know what she's doing! I have to save her from herself! If she was being rational, she would want me, not a macho guy!"

You can't force someone else to get help. If you think they're out of control, whether it's drugs or alcohol or just self-destructive relationships, there's not much you can do other than remove yourself from the equation which will show them you're serious. Consequences is often the only thing that gets through to people. But come on, you're acting like she's lost her mind but you don't really have any evidence of that other than an attraction to Karl Urban.

You can only fix yourself. And don't gloss over the fact that you do need help. Being needy and irrational is a pretty sure way to drive a woman into the arms of a macho guy who doesn't give her that kind of drama.

She also wants to express an emotional range, and mocking her feelings is really going to piss her off. A woman wants you to be rational and stable, but when you argue that she's being irrational all she hears is that you don't respect her feelings.

Of course I'm overgeneralizing a woman's needs, but...

[Kathryn Martin]

There is nothing irrational about being attracted to masculine men. In many MtF there is a highly suppressed latent attraction to men. In some cases transsexuals are solely attracted to men, in others an attraction to both sexes and in some sole attraction to women.

HRT has zero effect on your sexual orientation. What happens is that once on the path of transition we will give ourselves increasingly permission to be who we are which in a sense lets the cat out of the bag. Those that were attracted solely to men have no barriers left, bi-sexual transsexuals will continue to be attracted to men and women and those attracted to women will continue to be attracted to women.

Given that many of us have suppressed their attraction to men with a vengeance as part of our attempt to survive as men (big red flag for someone who feels incongruent and hopes to maintain stability) when hormone therapy begins we permit ourselves slowly but surely to let go of suppression of much that "constructed" our "male" lives.

[STACY B]

There is nothing irrational about being attracted to masculine men. In many MtF there is a highly suppressed latent attraction to men. In some cases transsexuals are solely attracted to men, in others an attraction to both sexes and in some sole attraction to women.

HRT has zero effect on your sexual orientation. What happens is that once on the path of transition we will give ourselves increasingly permission to be who we are which in a sense lets the cat out of the bag. Those that were attracted solely to men have no barriers left, bi-sexual transsexuals will continue to be attracted to men and women and those attracted to women will continue to be attracted to women.

Given that many of us have suppressed their attraction to men with a vengeance as part of our attempt to survive as men (big red flag for someone who feels incongruent and hopes to maintain stability) when hormone therapy begins we permit ourselves slowly but surely to let go of suppression of much that "constructed" our "male" lives.




Thank You ,,,, Same thing I said But in English ,,Not Red Neck Eze ,,LOL,,,, PERMISSION !! Thats it ,,, Now the Body fits ,,So it OK NOW !!

[Marleena]

I'm glad we are getting some clarity on what is going on finally. Most if not all men have to deal with it at some point. It's called "she's not into you". The sooner you learn the warning signs the better. She is putting up new obstacles so that she doesn't have to be romantically or otherwise involved with you.IMHO

[Kaitlyn Michele]

...
Now please can we get back to the original question. Forget about who it is, though keeping in mind the individual is intersexed and NOT TS.

right, but its you that is ignoring the answer to your original question...

Which is no effect on sexual orientation

[Aprilrain]

If it is so important that she is intersexed and NOT TS, and in your mind that is a major distinction why are you asking us?

Correct me if im wrong but In past posts you have indicated that this girl was interested in SRS so Im confused as to why she would need hormones to control an out of whack menstrual cycle. that doesn't make sense.

[LeaP]

What's not being given its due here is a normal level of sexual fluidity in humans.

Women are reportedly more fluid, based on relationships - regardless of whether they ID as straight or not. There is a strong cultural recognition and tolerance of this that is reflected in several ways I won't detail.

But I also wonder about males because the rates of same-sex contact is so high during puberty and young adulthood.

It seems that the level and fundamental nature of transition could trigger this fluidity, regardless of primary sexual identity.

[Frances]

What's not being given its due here is a normal level of sexual fluidity in humans.

Women are reportedly more fluid, based on relationships - regardless of whether they ID as straight or not. There is a strong cultural recognition and tolerance of this that is reflected in several ways I won't detail.

But I also wonder about males because the rates of same-sex contact is so high during puberty and young adulthood.

It seems that the level and fundamental nature of transition could trigger this fluidity, regardless of primary sexual identity.

I find this thread utterly confusing.

Are we talking about a man or a woman, about someone who is physically both or neither? Is he or she attracted to men, women or androgynes? Did this person change their orientation from women to men or from androgynes to macho men? Are this person's genitals typically female, male or a little of both? Does she have a penis and still need to go to a gynocologist?

I am not being flippant, but people giving responses based on various combinations of the above possibilities. What is the actual situation here?

[Pythos]

1) We are talking about an individual that has both male and female sexual characteristics, but more feminine down below.
2) For as long as I have known her, as well as others have known her she has been bisexual, and been most attracted to women. The males she has shown attraction to have always been androgynous. She has never referred to the macho male as anything to do with sexy. She loves strong confident women. When she first fell for me she thought I was female...when she learned I was male, she was all the more attracted because in her words I was the best of both worlds.
3) Her sex organs are ambiguous...small male parts, but mostly female down below. She has a horribly painful cycle with bad bleeding that has lead to anemia. This is the reason she went on the meds. She does go to a gynecologist, to which I have driven her.
4) Before she went on the meds she asked me to keep an eye out for any changes in her behavior, eating habits and other things. She said she will become more light sensitive (which has indeed happened), and that was normal. But other things could be a sign the mix is wrong. The first doses were all wrong and were indeed more like what would be given a transsexual. This resulted in violent mood swings. The dose was later corrected for HER biology, and things were much better. But the pills seem to have done nothing about the pain of her cycles. I just wish with that being the case she would get off of them. They are not doing what they were meant to do, but messing with her in other ways. She herself has said that the pills are "effing me up".

Hopefully this clarifies the situation now. It is a screwy situation, one that I do wish was not the case, and that she and I were instead looking at a future together, as we were this time last year....before these pills.

For someone putting up barriers, and distancing herself from me, she sure is putting effort into improving herself AND keeping me close. She has been given ample oportunity for me to leave her and each time she has wanted me to stick around, and so I do. She is utterly confused...which is sad, for both her and myself.

[CharleneT]

Okay....

She really needs a good endo or better gyn doc.

[Frances]

Thank you Pythos for the added information.

[Bree-asaurus]

I've read several M2F TSs (who thought they were hetero for most of their lives), write that they were increasingly attracted to men the further along they got with HRT. A few of these members have analyzed this and have come to the conclusion that the attraction they thought they felt towards women prior to transition was in fact a rather deep feeling of admiration and sisterhood which combined with a then male libido (prior to HRT), gave a mistaken impression they were sexually attracted to GGs.

This. Allllll this! :)

When you're gay or transsexual or any part of the LGBT community, often times you live a life of learned behaviors. You repress the feelings you're not supposed to have and overcompensate for the feelings society says you should have. A lot of the time, this is all subconscious. It's not that HRT is making some transsexuals like men. It's just similar timing because it is quite often the case that when a person is undergoing HRT, they are still learning to accept things about themselves they have been hiding from. Sometimes this is a sexual orientation. Sometimes not.

Of course, we don't know everything there is to know about transsexuality... so who can really say that there have never been cases of HRT changing sexual preference?

In my case, I started questioning and accepting my real sexual preferences first, and that led to me also questioning my gender. If my sexual attraction didn't feel right and I realized I was repressing it, was I also repressing my gender because I never felt like a man?

[DebbieL]

There are so many different dynamics in play before, during, and after the transition process. If you were an effeminate boy, a "Sissy" in elementary school, there is a high likelihood that you would experience males and something to fear, to avoid, and to react defensively. Worse, you might have even had to fight, associating males with violence, fear, and anger. There is also the possibility that some homosexual men misinterpreted your feminine traits for homosexual traits, and tried to seduce you, and then got upset when you didn't respond the way they expected. In my own case, I had 4 different rape situations where men tried to demand more than I was willing to give. I was able to negotiate to a situation I could tolerate, such as a hand job rather than oral, or oral rather than anal, but it wasn't something I wanted and if I could have avoided it, I would have done so, and did my best to avoid it later.

Conversely, women were friends, and women who wanted sex with me had to be much more aggressive, almost masculine in their approach. If a woman made it very clear that what she wanted was sex, I would provide what she wanted, quite happily, even if it was just going down on her in the coat room. Ironically, when women tried to reciprocate, I would shake as if I was freezing, get so ticklish they couldn't even get close to it. The first few times I did make love, I couldn't have an orgasm, because I was dressed and acting like a man. It was only when my girlfriend tied me down and blindfolded me that I could surrender, focus on what she was doing, and get deeply into the fantasy of being a woman seduced by a woman. Later relationships were with women who were heavier, and often looked and acted more masculine, more sexually aggressive, and more "in charge". This included my first wife. I liked being seduced, sometimes even dominated, both sexually and emotionally. In many ways, these women were men with breasts. Several even admitted to being tom-boys and were frequently referred to as "one of the guys".

After coming out as Debbie more publicly, and especially to the point where I could pass, I found that males treated me differently. Gay men were more gentle and seductive, willing to take their time. There were a few times when I'd be in my short skirt, leather boots, and girls leather jacket, get offered a ride on a motorcycle, and be seriously tempted. When I went to straight bars, there were both men and women who obviously wanted to seduce me, and were totally different in how they talked to me, how they touched me, how they danced with me, and how they interacted. More importantly, there were many men and women who PREFERRED Debbie to Rex, and really supported and encouraged transition.

If I had come out when I was 20 instead of 35, it's very easy to see that I would have been much more open to a man who wanted me to dress up all the time, to look sexy, wanted me to grow real breasts, and wanted to enjoy mutually satisfying sex on a regular basis. This would be especially true after being with women who seemed to want to discourage my dressing, wanted to limit how far it went, weren't as interested in sex, or wanted to be pleased and didn't want to reciprocate. Add to that the fact that I wasn't that well endowed as a man, and hormones make things much smaller, make it hard to have erections hard enough to be useful. I had no problem using my mouth, fingers, dildos, vibrators, and other toys, as well as kinks such as bondage & power play to please my partner, but even then, most of them ultimately ended up deciding they wanted a "real man" - someone well hung.

I didn't experience getting anal penetration until the end of my first marriage, and even then my wife was trying to freak me out. To her disappointment, I actually found that once I relaxed and accepted the situation (I was powerless to resist), I could really enjoy it and enjoyed it quite a bit. It wasn't until my second wife that I experienced being seduced by a woman wearing a strap-on, but once I did I found I really enjoyed that as well. If I had made that discovery in my 20's it's quite possible that I would have been much more interested in men who wanted me as Debbie most or all of the time, rather than women who weren't too keen on Debbie and just wanted her a few times a month, or a few times per year (by the end of my first marriage).

Then there is the fantasies of what it would be like after the SRS, to have a fully functional clitoris and vagina, and being able to really enjoy being penetrated vaginally while aroused in the clitoris. The imagination can do some interesting things, and it's easy to see where, when going through HRT, there would be a tendency to have fantasies of what it would be like to have female orgasms. I've had no trouble giiving women orgasm after orgasm, sometimes for 1-2 hours, with 30-40 orgasms per hour, and I often got jealous. A few partners have been able to give me multiple orgasms as well, and once I learned that orgasms didn't require ejaculation, it became much easier to have more, but the idea of having the kinds of orgasms I gave to other women was very appealing.

This brings me back full circle though. My understanding from most women is that most men tend to focus on foreplay only long enough to create interest in penetration, and lose interest after ejaculation. To me, that would be very frustrating, and might make me more inclined to want a lesbian partner instead.

[KellyJameson]

This thread has me very worried.

You are born intersexed and up until recently if there was ambiguous genitalia it was "corrected" shortly after birth.

My "brother" was born this way and he has needed a lifetime of medical attention so I see it as extremely serious and it requires the care of a specialist because there are all sorts of health problems and a shortened life span.

Androgen insensitivity,chromosomal abnormalities, ect.. are very serious and in my own case also affected how my body reacted to and utilizes insulin and as a child I went into diabetic shock because of it, this is not something to be ignored and it affects the whole body not just the sex organs.

I do not know how doctors could have missed this because she would have a long long medical history.

Do you feel completely confident she is intersexed because if so taking hormones without the doctors knowledge of her intersexed condition could be extremely dangerous.

If she is I would recommend joining "The intersex society of North America" for information and resources.

In my opinion the health is much more fragile so lifestyle choices affecting health are huge.

My heart goes out to you both.

[Pythos]

Back in December I took her to get the pills prescribed. She went to a Gynocologist. Not sure a pre-op trans sexual would go to such...I may be wrong. I have felt down her front and I felt nothing that felt like a tucked male organ. If there is, then she hides it supremely well with relatively loose panties, cause while doing as a lover does at times, I felt no really strong undies...so I am pretty sure she is as she says. Mind you we did not get fully intimate, so there is a slim chance she is a M to F....though from what I have seen, it is highly doubtful.

[CharleneT]

I think this situation is too complex for us to guess about.

[Pythos]

Complex is the least of a term to use. LOL.

I got more insight today. I have seen her having a Star Crush on Urban. The actor played Dr Mccoy in the new star Trek film. Now I get it. and yes she has had a crush on him since that movie. She made clear it is only a "star crush". I asked her would she have found me more apealing if I had a scruffy beard and short cropped hair, and she said, "Hell no, don't you dare do that." so I have more of an idea of what was happening.

Thank you all for your input.

I am being very cautious and like I said, she has A LOT of straightening out to do, and if someone else enters my life that I am attracted to on the scale I am with her...well this u-boat will sail.