Therapist laid it on the line

[Darla]

My therapist finally laid it on the line. She presented it like we both knew it all along, but that I was dancing around the issue. Personally I bet she was fed up with me, and to some degree so am I.

Basically - I'm a crossdresser and there's no way ever my wide will ever accept me as such. She affirmed that I seek acceptance and I'll probably not get it.

Kind of a bombshell and I'm still a little reeling.

So do I get divorced? Anybody ever been here? Seems pretty dark down in this hole.

Darla

[sandra-leigh]

How important is that acceptance to you? What are you "asking" for? What could you "live with" ? What (of what is present now) can you not "live with" ?

[Jodi]

Yes, I have been there. Divorced now for 12 years after being married for 33 years. We are both happier today.

It can be a tough road.

Only you know what is the correct course of action.

Jodi

[Megan Briana]

There is only one answer to this, and I am afraid none of us can really help make it (although if we could, we would). Ultimately it will come down to your choice. Like it has been said, what are you willing to live with and without? It is a hard choice and my thoughts and prayers got out to you. Whatever decision is made, be sure to find peace for yourself.

for myself, I was in a marriage that nothing could have helped survive. My cd-ing played no part in it, but there are times i wish it had. It might have opened up doors to other issues we wound up dealing with at the end.

[Leann68]

Wow, I would never attempt to tell you what to do, but that said if you don't mind I will mention a few things to think about, and also a little about my own situation.
First how much do you Love you wife, sometimes a person's Love for someone else can make up for a lot of things that we would like but not get.
2nd, you do not give a lot of info, Is their any degree of acceptance, meaning can she accept that you have the desire to dress, but just can not stand to see it?
Does she accept some underdressing?

My situation is a little like yours, my wife can not stand me dressing, but she lets me underdress, I wear panties all the time, and have for the last 30 years or so. I have boobs so she lets me wear waist simmers, and a bra on occasion, I like the open shelf bra because it supports my breast and makes them stand out which makes them extra sensitive. I can wear spandex shorts all I want.
If you will tell a little more about you situation I am sure there are lot of Girls on here that will give you advice.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Darla, I see by your age that you may have probably been married for a few years now
what you have to do is ask yourself , Can this marriage be saved and what are the alternatives.

[Cynthia Anne]

I don't think it could be said any better then how Sandra said it! Remember we all live and die with our decisions we make!

[Lorileah]

First how much do you Love you wife, sometimes a person's Love for someone else can make up for a lot of things that we would like but not get. Just remember this works both ways. Love is not one person giving up everything for the other, it is two people working together to find common ground. So many times here it seems that it is either my way or the highway for one or the other partner. Communication and negotiation, not demands and immovability.

You want your wife to accept what you are and I would bet that for the longest time you didn't accept it. You didn't change over night, she won't either. In the final minute though you have to be happy. She deserves to be happy. You have to live with you no matter what. Can you be happy not being who you are? Are you willing to give up who you are? The rest of Leann's post is true, can you meet somewhere in the middle and both still be happy?

How did Billy Joel put it?
later you sleep in your own space Either way it's O.K. you wake up with yourself ...

[Cassandra Lynn]

Basically - I'm a crossdresser and there's no way ever my wide will ever accept me as such. She affirmed that I seek acceptance and I'll probably not get it.
Darla

Just to clarify this comment, this is what your therapist said to you?

And if so, i'm shocked and amazed that no one has jumped all over this. This site has a good many folks who are trumpeteers for acceptance and that everyone loves us and will be just fine with the news.
So therefore i'm wondering where all the indignation comments are.......something like...."how dare you therapist say this to you!" or maybe...."this is not the right way for a certified therapist to speak to a patient!"

Or maybe i'm just missing the boat entirely.

[Brianna612]

My X would not put up my dressing at all and after 10 years called it quits. That was a very hard time but now couldn't be happier.

You won't know until you talk to your wife. You'll have to come up with a compromise that you both can live with. I always live with the belief that for every negative there is a equal or greater positive.

[reb.femme]

So therefore i'm wondering where all the indignation comments are.......something like...."how dare you therapist say this to you!" or maybe...."this is not the right way for a certified therapist to speak to a patient!"

Or maybe i'm just missing the boat entirely.

I was trying to work out if your answer was tongue in cheek or not :o. Either way, it's good that someone can state a point in black and white rather than hedging around the issue for once.

It is a tough decision but to paraphrase Lorileah, a relationship is one of compromise not ultimatums. That said, all options look to be on the table at this point, even the nuclear divorce option. Sorry if I seem unsympathetic, but I'm a realist and pessimist first and foremost.

Reb

[Marlana]

Well, what ever you decid to do has to be your decision. The important questions have all been listed above. For me personally, I choose my wife and family over cd'ing. I am in a similar situation. My wife wants nothing to do with my cd'ing. Doesn't want to see it or talk about it. I do underdress at night and on weekend mornings. When she goes out of town, Marlana gets to come out and play. I hope all goes well and you can live with your decision. Good luck.

[ChrisP]

I've been there, and your therapist gave you the best answer she knew; hopefully well informed from her time with you.
The ball's in your court. It always has been.
There is no "correct" decision here, only what is right for you.

If I may, pick up a copy of the book "Should You Leave?" by the psychiatrist Peter Kramer. He argues that much dissatisfaction within a marriage is due to depression. Consequently, before making a major decision like this
consider a course of antidepressant medication.
For me, that advice didn't change my decision, but it did make me realize how much negative emotion I was walking around with every day.
I made some changes in my career and marriage that I am still content with 10 years later.
The issue was me, and the solution was making choices that weren't entirely selfish but which didn't require me to sacrifice joy just to try to appease someone else's unhappiness.
You are hopefully in a place in life where you can share the journey with people you care about, rather than trying to pretend to be someone you are not just to prevent complaints from others.

[Cassandra Lynn]

I was trying to work out if your answer was tongue in cheek or not :o. Either way, it's good that someone can state a point in black and white rather than hedging around the issue for once.

It is a tough decision but to paraphrase Lorileah, a relationship is one of compromise not ultimatums. That said, all options look to be on the table at this point, even the nuclear divorce option. Sorry if I seem unsympathetic, but I'm a realist and pessimist first and foremost.

Reb

Agreed, and as to the OP, i too concur with the ever intelligent and honest Lorileah.

[KellyJameson]

I'm not married but in all my relationships I must feel that my individuality is honored, that I'm not being used purely as an object for someone elses benefit, a means to someone elses ends.

That they recognized that there is a flesh and blood person standing before them who can be hurt and deserves to be protected, particularly from them.

To love, a person must carry within them a sensitivity so they feel the same pain the one they love is feeling and so seeks to protect them and help ease their burdens.

From this compromise is born because compromise is about sharing pain.

Not crossdressing is not experiencing the self which is painful so when it is given up the person is expected to bear the pain alone which is not love in my opinion.

I understand why some women would not want to experience this because it could affect her sexual desire, her sense that she is with a man that cannot emotionally support her, concern for how others will be affected and or react, concern that it is a mental illness and a whole host of other reasons.

The question for me would be is my wife cowardly and always runs from pain or does she have a generosity of spirit that comes from strength in the face of adversity.

Is one person always doing the giving and the other always doing the taking, it is a pain avoidance form of selfishness.

Are you nothing but a beast of burden that is expected not to feel pain and only do what you are told?

To give up crossdressing (you) when you are not loved is different than giving up or changing your crossdressing when you are loved but it is crucial to really understand the concept of love which leaves you feeling valued and protected for "you" and not for "what you do" which is secondary.

Love is a response to what we value so how we are loved comes from the persons own relationship to their lives and with their own mind, love is the result of the relationship a person has with life, wisdom, truth, pain and their own mortality.

It is the expression of the collective qualities or absence of qualities that make us more than just smart animals.

Are you loved by someone who has the capacity to love?

Is she couragous, sensitive, humble, honest, fair (justice), giving, confident but not arrogant ?

All these things come from the relationship a person has with themselves, what they have learned and what they really value and this will decide how they treat you.

If I could decide between crossdressing and love it would than depend on whether I believed to my core that I was really loved.

[Ressie]

So do I get divorced?

Sounds like you're jumping the gun a little. A lot of marriages are doing OK in cases like yours. How's the relationship other than the crossdressing issue? Love is a decision you know. If you're depressed because of your marriage, then divorce might be considered. But you're not giving enough info to us "experts" to give advice.

[MissTee]

Gheesh, that's a tough one for certain. Not sure I'm the one to advise, either. So, are you saying divorce is imminent? I would offer up that it's difficult to think that the survival of my relationship rested on this one issue (CD-ing). If she don't want to be a part of dressing then DADT would work for me. If you set the ultimatum of accept or else, then you have to be prepared to suffer the "or else" part.

[carriecatgirl]

Ok im going to lay down some food for thought. How long did it take for u to get to know yourself in cding? One year or 20? To expect a so to accept in timely matter means that they need time. Just as u had time to find out your likes and dislikes so does it take time for your so. Just cause your therapist says she wont doesn't mean she cant or wont. I would give her time love and communication. Also some So's need tons of time some not so much. I wanted to say also that some have there own ideas of what is ok and what isnt ok. Its up to you on what you want to or are willing to compromise on. If its ither your family or your cding that takes president.Which ever is more important to you. Your desicion but Some partners don't want to be involved but are ok with giving you time to dress on your own. I dont have enough information to know whats going on to give your more on the gg/ partner front to help you. Just cause someone says that they wont doesnt mean that they wont forever..

[docrobbysherry]

I'm with Serene. Confused about what u mean about what your therapist said/meant, Darla. The way I read your post, your therapist concluded that u r a CD and your wife will never accept that?

Which makes no sense, from my experiences with professional counselors. They usually try to seek avenues of truth and compromise in relationships. Why would your therapist take away all hope of saving your marriage? It's not up to him/her, it's up to u and your wife. If u both wish to stay together, you'll agree to compromise and stay together. If one of u gives up, THEN your marriage is over! This happened in mine. My wife said she was done compromising and that was the end for us.

I don't see this as a CD issue. If you've been together awhile, you've both already had to compromise. Your CDing is simply one more u need to work out. Whether u stay together is not up to your therapist. It's up to u 2!

[angpai30]

To many times in a relationship there are many things holding a couple together, but then there are those things ripping them apart. In my marriage when I still classified as a CD my wife would do all sorts of things to make me feel like she wanted to help, but then turn around and bash me instead. My point is, is that I did what I did because I had no intuition on what my ex was really saying because I was so involved and I felt like I just could not abandon being a trans woman. I wanted to be a woman so much that it destroyed any chance I had of even getting back with her like both of us wanted at a certain time of our seperation, but even now I could never go back to being a "Man". I have desired being a woman since I was five, which is the time I knew that I was different than the rest. As everyone has said... this is a time in you're life which you must make your own decision on. Does it feel right to divorce? Does it feel right to stay married? Does it feel like a lie? Does it feel like Truth? We all wish for acceptance, but in reality how many of us actually get accepted? I am not accepted by my family, but I still live with them. Nobody talks to me accept for one brother and my mother. I have six brothers and one sister and only one brother and my mother talk to me? OK, whatever time to move on. You have to weigh the consaquences of your decision because the ripple effect will not only effect you and your spouse. It will effect all that know and love you... are you willing for that to change as well? Life got better for me because I was always fighting with my wife and yelling at my kids. I was always angry, defensive, paranoid and bitter because I could not accept that I wanted to be a woman at that time. I feel differently now and my transition is a source of strength for me and I don't let anybody tell me otherwise. You have to take into consideration your own circumstances, your own family and friends, your wifes mental and emotional state as of right now and how can you help her feel better. I in my own relationship with my ex-wife made being a woman all I thought about and I regret that with all my heart and being, but I still would not go back. I am happier and life has more meaning to it now. Don't do anything that you know will not increase your own happiness and the happiness of all those who are intertwined with you. But if it must be done... just remember that when grafting a tree will the branch you are grafting make the tree stronger or will it weaken the tree. Does the branch have enough strength to help the tree overcome the challenges ahead. By removing the branch from one tree to graft it onto another tree don't just assume that the best decision to make would to graft it onto the tree. You have consider if the tree in which you wish to remove the branch is healthy enough to even overcome it's own challenges down the road. I would sit down with your wife and explain to her what you explained to us here, but don't mention divorce. The best thing that you could do is talk to your wife, family, and even friends if you have any that you can talk to about this. Don't let what your therapist said make you automatically beleive that divorce is the only and final answer because there is never a final answer just a decision that was made in hope of a better life. I'm sorry I started mumbling, but my divorce failed because that's what I thought and I made it so my ex didn't even want to be around me anymore because I was always dressed at home.


Angela

[Diversity]

Tough to answer your question. My question to you is: Do you love your wife? If so, do you love her more than you love CD'ing? It would seem to me that you would always put your wife above your urges to CD. See if you can reach a compromise (with her setting boundaries that you can live with), then I believe there is a good opportunity to save your marriage. I know that I was lucky to save mine through talking with her!
Di

[Beverley Sims]

I would try and make your marriage work first.
Just because there appear to be a lot of accepting SO's here it is not as clear cut as that.
There are limitations.
These people have worked at the marriage.
Divorce is not something you contemplate lightly.
It is for the rest of your life.

[Sarasometimes]

Darla,
If that was my therapist I would never return!!! Does your therapist have training and experience with gender indentity issues? No therapist should get tired of listening to a client! That is his/her job! I have been to more than a half dozen untrained therapists, who assured me they knew gender issues. It wasn't until I changed practices, that I realized how I was teaching them and paying for the priviledge! I strongly suggest you try someone else. Also has your wife ever gone to a session with your therapist, with or without you? If no there is no way the therapist can make this conclusion!! Run Forest! Run!!

[Darla]

Wow. Woke up this morning to all your amazing replies, and I think I've figured out how to make a post last a long time. Give a little bit of information but not enough to fully flesh out the argument. Isn't that how the TV series Lost worked? My apologies for dumping the half story on you girls. And seeing as how it's really hard to reply to quotes on an iPhone screen please bear with me - I hope to hit all your questions....

I Love my wife a lot. A lot. Like soul mates love, and our relationship reflects that. She's an only child and had an intense relationship with her mom and that same intensity is transferred to our relationship. We're a nuclear family (and there's a joke coming up) because we have all the strength of a tight knit family, but on the off days you know how nuclear energy reacts when not handled properly. I have no intention of leaving my family, but I do have this need to dress.

How well do I know myself? Not that well in terms of who my feminine self is. And I need to know her. Dressing is one of the ways I want to know myself better, even if it's incompatible with the boundries I have now. And those boundries are as self imposed as those that my wife and I have discussed.

What do I want? To explore this side of me which means the space to dress, at home, possibly in a DADT manner if that works. I would like to attend a support group at some point- I'd like to know some people who are like me. I'd like a little freedom to shop for clothes, but within reason and not break the bank. But not have to hide charge purchases or stash cash or lie about where I went at lunchtime.

So that's the form of acceptance I'm hoping to get. I guess some of you would call it tolerance, but it's a step better than where I am at now. I haven't dressed in 6 months and my brain is beginning to melt.

And as to what my therapist said, I applaud her in some ways, was that through all the sessions we've had she's come to believe that my wife won't under any circumstance come to accept any part of my dressing. So we work on ways to find joy in other parts of life. I operated in therapy as if there might be a chance my wife would accept some part of it, or might come to grow into a little acceptance. But I think my therapist put the hammer down and put it bluntly. She might be right. And so that left me hanging - or rather as many of you said - the balls in my court and always has been.

And as a postscript to this my wife always prys after therapy. I've been moody and depressed probably for two weeks, seriously and yesterday I looked like that cumulatively with the added bonus of being run over by the therapy bus. My wife and I talked this morning and there were a few cracks in the door. She asked what I wanted to do and pitched a few far flung scenarios, like underdressing, or dressing fully when the family was away, and also touching on why sexy men's underwear isn't the same as a bra and panty set from Victorias secret. It was a surprise, and it got us talking. It was a small break in the clouds. I feel like a coward for not bring it up sooner, and I'm trying to let go of the guilt for not having done so.

And divorce was a bad, overreative statement. It would take a lot for me to seriously contemplate this. I do love her very much.

Darla

[NicoleScott]

Yes, we should have revealed that we crossdress before we married, but we didn't, so here we are.
Darla, when my wife found out that I crossdressed, she wanted us to go to counseling, and I agreed. The problem was that I wanted her to accept my crossdressing, and she wanted me "cured". Not having a common goal doomed the counseling to failure. There was no way it could have succeeded (as far as meeting conflicting goals). Maybe the goal should have been to save the marriage.
This is hard to believe but true: the counselors (husband wife team, meeting with my wife and me both individually and together) recommended that we stop the counseling sessions, and that we split, seeing that I could not stop crossdressing and she could not tolerate a crossdressing husband. Harsh reality. We divorced soon after.
But life went on. For both of us.

[Ressie]

Darla, it seems that your therapist wanted you to realize and accept the worst case scenario.

[Tina B.]

Unless your wife has joined you in Therapy how would your therapist know what she can learn to accept? And only you know what you can accept.
Love is a pretty good reason to try to work it out, getting married is never the end of the journey, it's the start, and takes a lot of work to keep it healthy.
And it sounds like corny, but it really does take to to Tango. Your4 second post, it sounds like your ife is willing to try to find ways to work it out for both of you, give a little, get a little, it can work.
Tina B.

[Stephanie47]

Darla. I'm glad you expanded on the original post. I am not a therapist. If your wife does not accompany you to therapy, the therapist will not know her true feelings. At least at a bare minimum the therapist should see her alone, so she can get a handle on her perception of cross dressing and how she perceives how you see yourself. I have never gone through therapy as relates to cross dressing. However, I as an individual and as a couple have gone to therapy for non cross dressing issues, primary combat related PTSD issues. Sometimes we do not see how others actually see us. Sometimes we create issues that could have been avoided.

I think your yearning to be accepted by your wife is more about you wanting to accept yourself. I felt that way along time ago. You seem to be in a DADT marriage, but, with you still beating yourself to death over it. I do not need to have my wife involved in my cross dressing to fulfill my simple desires. For a long time I thought, if my wife bought me a pair of panties everything would be alright. I finally figured out trying to convince my wife to participate/accept was hurting our relationship more. She knows I cross dress when she is not home. She knows I have a wardrobe that is not hidden, just not hanging in the walk in closet. She told me decades ago, if I needed to go to a support group, to go.

You seem to have self imposed a boundary/limitation upon yourself without reaching it with your wife's input. Six months for a cross dresser to struggle is too long. Maybe your wife would be agreeable to a trip for you out of the house or her visiting away. Maybe she would be willing to take a long day trip.

From your elaboration, you do NOT seem to be in a 'toxic' relationship that is destined to dissolve.