spousal breast acceptance

[harley47]

Do any married members with observable breast development get acceptance by your wives? Please, be serious, no fantasy replies. Can you disrobe in front of your wife, expose your bra and breasts, and experience acceptance? Please explain and elaborate.

[mirandacdgirl]

my girl has made it clear to me she is the only one in the relationship to have real breasts..I would love to take hormones to just add a little to the hips and bust.. but im stuck with breast forms.

[carriecatgirl]

Im a gg and my hubby has some "man boobies" cause of being a bigger male. Now does this mean i accept yes cause its a part of him. Do i wish he had smaller ones and i was the ones with the boobs yes. Cause simply put i sometimes want a strong man and the manly type on occasion. Does this mean i dont accept him heck no.. He is an awesome dad and loving partner. Know that this sounds all confusing didnt mean to be. Just one gg/partners point of you. If you cant love the person then your not as in love with them as you thought..

[sandra-leigh]

I can (and do) disrobe in front of my wife, exposing my bra and breasts. But the experience is more like tolerance than acceptance. I get more leeway if it is a "cute bra" (problem: I don't fit those sizes anymore.) But if it isn't "cute" but instead is sexy or decorative or is "clearly a woman's bra", then she gets that "I'm a bit hurt" look. I get noticed less in a very plain pull-over bra such as the Elita cross-over mini-cami series (sort of like sportswear bras.) It isn't quite the bra itself, more like what the bra represents, and it happens that traditional bras "trigger" her discomfort. "Too serious at "playing at being a woman", perhaps.

Now, the above is with respect to the disrobing when I am wearing a bra. If I am not wearing a bra, then the reaction is different. My breast volume is higher than hers (but her cup-size is higher than mine as she has a much lower band size.) She sees my A-ish cup breasts, with the woman-sized aureola, but she still sees them as... I don't know. Odd flab, or moobs, or something like that, but not "boobs". And from time to time she expresses that something is wrong, that she hopes they are temporary and will go away when I lose weight or that the doctors "cure" whatever-it-is medical condition that has raised the flesh up. Just within the last two days she said something along those lines, and followed by reminiscing "remember how flat your chest used to be?"

You might correctly gather from this that I have not been open with her about the fact that I am on HRT -- she sees the medications but doesn't know what they are for and doesn't look them up and "estradiol" doesn't hint enough for her to catch on. So she'd prefer them gone, expressing her preference for my body to be more male, non-acceptance that way. She does know that I'm transgender -- but we haven't talked about my need for body changes, so in one way I have not given her a chance to be accepting of what I need full-time (as opposed to something that I might happen to enjoy dressing up "like" from time to time.)

It doesn't feel good to be doing this "right in front of my wife", counting on her not to connect the dots until it is "a good time to talk" or "she has gotten used to it". But going on hormones was something I needed to do, whereas The Talk can be procrastinated...

[larry]

Im a gg and my hubby has some "man boobies" cause of being a bigger male. Now does this mean i accept yes cause its a part of him. Do i wish he had smaller ones and i was the ones with the boobs yes. Cause simply put i sometimes want a strong man and the manly type on occasion. Does this mean i dont accept him heck no.. He is an awesome dad and loving partner. Know that this sounds all confusing didnt mean to be. Just one gg/partners point of you. If you cant love the person then your not as in love with them as you thought..

Now THAT is one lucky Dude !!!

[noeleena]

Hi,

Once Jos knew about me being intersex being a female . then no it was not a issue even though my breasts were growing it was okay.

Even when Jos knew i was going to have surgerys she said well since your going to Thailand why dont you have breast surgery , so i said do you think i should well why go all that way & not oh okay ill think about that, nearer the time i said you think i should ,,,,, YES.....& then she stoped & said ....what am i saying . oh heck ..... so we laughed about that Jos even though it was hell Jos backed me up hey it really was hard for her,

So surgery time away, over to Phuket. 23 days ,15 hour day trips there & back. a bit sore though not to bad, so womens surgerys & back home

Jos would not look at the after till some 6 months later, & then it was okay ... oh just like mine . well yes , i wanta go over & have my breasts done......okay when ,im still waiting for her answer. gee another trip over yeaaaa ...... ooops gota save the money first .

Dont make the mistake & think its easy to lose one who you think is who you are, & then say i really am a woman . being intersex does not make it easy its still hard accepting , takes time , * & lots of love,*

...noeleena...

[EnglishRose]

Yes because we already decided to stay together through transition and beyond.

[JohnH]

There's no problem with my wife seeing me with breasts and wearing bras. I have B cup breasts thanks to M2F HRT, and there is a good chance I may wind up with C or D cup breasts.

On the other hand, I really get a good ribbing from my wife:

1. In Sunday School there was a video presentation of the journeys of Paul. There was a statue of a Greek goddess and my wife reaches over and says,"John, that's you." while putting her hand on one of my breasts.

2. She has called me "Titty Boy".

3. She has told me I need to tighten my bra instead of of telling me to buckle up.

John

[Karren H]

since mine are primarily due to a pituitary tumor .... she doesn't have a choice.... even though I've been enhancing them further..... as long as they aren't adorned in feminine clothing.... she's ok with them....

[Marcyme]

Im a gg and my hubby has some "man boobies" cause of being a bigger male. Now does this mean i accept yes cause its a part of him. Do i wish he had smaller ones and i was the ones with the boobs yes. Cause simply put i sometimes want a strong man and the manly type on occasion. Does this mean i dont accept him heck no.. He is an awesome dad and loving partner. Know that this sounds all confusing didnt mean to be. Just one gg/partners point of you. If you cant love the person then your not as in love with them as you thought..

That is the most honest and caring post I have read in a long time. Your partner is VERY lucky!

[Kathryn Martin]

I am sorry to say but this thread reeks of something that has little or nothing to do with transsexualism. Women have boobs, what's not to accept.

[Frances]

I am sorry to say but this thread reeks of something that has little or nothing to do with transsexualism. Women have boobs, what's not to accept.

I agree with Kathryn, but the forum being called crossdressers.com. Thems the breaks.

[sandra-leigh]

I am sorry to say but this thread reeks of something that has little or nothing to do with transsexualism. Women have boobs, what's not to accept.

"What's not to accept" is the transsexualism with all its implications. In mental models, clothes can be changed back, nail polish can be removed, hair can be cut, behavior can vary from moment to moment, voice can be shifted back -- but visible body changes such as bust development are seen as being permanent and so can raise different emotions and different thoughts about "the long term".

And if there is a certain amount of mental gymnastics about "going back to the way things were before" being possible until the body changes... well, yes, people do really half-think about such things. Time has gone on, neither person is the same anymore, the world has changed, memories of what was before often don't match reality, but people do have such reactions, and telling them to "Get Over It" (or equivalent) doesn't work.

Does my wife understand and accept that I am on the female side of Transgender? No, she does not, and my boobs are an ever-present symbol to her that I am never again going to be the male she fell in love with.

[Badtranny]

I agree with Kathryn, but the forum being called crossdressers.com. Thems the breaks.

Yes but it is supposed to be the TS section and this thread is clearly in the wrong section. I wasn't gonna say anything but since ya'll brought it up...

I guess the next question will be "what does your spouse think about your name change?"

[StaceyJane]

My wife and I talked about this last week. She says I have only one life and I have to be happy. She was worried about my mom noticing.

[Frances]

"What's not to accept" is the transsexualism with all its implications. In mental models, clothes can be changed back, nail polish can be removed, hair can be cut, behavior can vary from moment to moment, voice can be shifted back -- but visible body changes such as bust development are seen as being permanent and so can raise different emotions and different thoughts about "the long term".

And if there is a certain amount of mental gymnastics about "going back to the way things were before" being possible until the body changes... well, yes, people do really half-think about such things. Time has gone on, neither person is the same anymore, the world has changed, memories of what was before often don't match reality, but people do have such reactions, and telling them to "Get Over It" (or equivalent) doesn't work.

Does my wife understand and accept that I am on the female side of Transgender? No, she does not, and my boobs are an ever-present symbol to her that I am never again going to be the male she fell in love with.

I could have gotten behind a post like this one however.

[sandra-leigh]

Yes but it is supposed to be the TS section and this thread is clearly in the wrong section.

According to an earlier posting, the original poster has been on hormones for 6 years (but has not had SRS) and is glad not to be under the control of testosterone anymore. I would say that qualifies them to ask the question here.

At the risk of putting words in the original poster's fingers: "If you are married and on HRT, then how is your wife coping with your breasts, a quite visible symbol of female-ness?" and (interpolating) "My wife is not comfortable seeing them" and "If you are in a similar situation, how do you yourself cope with this kind of non-acceptance?" And perhaps even shades of "Is my marriage necessarily doomed, or does it work out for some people? Is it just a matter of time for adjustment? Or if it hasn't happened in 6 years, does that mean it isn't going to happen, or perhaps even mean that things are going to get worse?"

[Aprilrain]

My boyfriend totally accepts my breast development, in fact I'm pretty sure he wouldnt mind seeing a little more. My ex wife likes to grab them when joking around, I'm pretty sure she accepts me fully for who I am.

The question it's self seems a bit fantasy oriented. Who cares if your wife accepts your boobs the real question should be is she going to accept you after transition at all! Most do not.

[Stephanie-L]

Actually, I do find this an appropriate thread for this forum. And to answer the question, I do have some breast growth, and she seems to accept them. We have talked about my upcoming breast augmentation, and even discussed cup sizes, implant type, etc. She is having some issues with my transition in general, but my breasts are not an issue for her............Stephanie

[Raquel June]

I think the question was worded in a creepy way, but it's probably an appropriate question. If you look at the OP's other posts, he/she is in an interesting place... Apparently has been on T-blockers and estrogen for 6 years, but still presents as male and considers him/herself a CD.

[sandra-leigh]

The question it's self seems a bit fantasy oriented. Who cares if your wife accepts your boobs the real question should be is she going to accept you after transition at all! Most do not.

Recall that different people mean different things by "transition", and different people stop at different points.

I have been transitioning for years. I think I'm probably going to take more steps within a couple of years. I don't know yet what I will decide to go ahead with or not over that mid term. My gut is currently suggesting that long-term I would like to become "publicly female", sort of like "non-op". Because (and this will probably sound a bit strange), one might feel the need to "by default" be thought of and treated as female, and yet not identify as being completely female. The Fairy Godmother can come and wave her "female body" wand over me any time now, and on the whole I'd be rather pleased at that, but my psyche would still be stuck somewhere in the middle.

In the meantime, the mostly-still-treated-as-male time, I struggle, and part of that struggle is my relationship. There is a balance, and I take into account my wife's opinions. That doesn't mean I necessarily "give in", but it can mean that I might do things differently or more slowly. Especially as my wife is adjusting, even if not as quickly as I might prefer. And Things Are Going To Change when her mother dies. (Late stage Alzheimer's can last anywhere from 3 months to 10 years.)

[JohnH]

My wife and I talked about this last week. She says I have only one life and I have to be happy. She was worried about my mom noticing.

I have already told my mother I have breasts. It runs among our family, even with the males.

John

[harley47]

Hormones essentially kill any serious performance--you are wise to be happy with the Walgreen's inserts. That is my view-you appear young, maybe too young to hang up your revolver. good luck

Thanks for the posts. I draw a distinction between crossdressing that, usually, has a slight turn on component. If 'fetish' is too strong a word, forgive me. With meds I have found many changes including virtually zero interest in crossdressing for looking pretty sake, wear pretty fashions,etc. I wish I were young again, could walk down the street with my shirtwaist dress floating in the breeze, but this is never possible. I totally admire those who will devote lots of time to making themselves pretty and many can pass. good for them.
I take meds to help me cope mentally and to try to have my body match as closely as my brains wants it. My breasts are both a source of mental pleasure and an embarassment sometimes. In December we will go to Sanibel island in Fl. Beach-combing is easy in shorts and a loose shirt (I can't wear a T shirt unless I am seeing my female mental health counselor), but forget the pool-yes I can wear a sun shield top on, but that still shows. I frankly have concerns about embarassing my wife-I don't care any more about strangers. She tolerates what I have become, but I don't undress in front of her-I want to help maintain the illusions of a conventional marriage.
I wear a Bali crop top to keep the girls in check-today I had a CT scan, decided I shouldn't wear a bra in case I had to open my shirt-didn't need to in fact-no electrodes attached-but my breasts did juggle a bit-clearly not like a woman with a D cup, but as I am slim, what I have aren't 'man boobs' that go with a beer belly-they are obviously breasts. Today, it didn't matter to me-and I have concluded that the health care folks really don't care a bit-they have seen it all and are too professional-and weary.
I think it is great that some have accepting wives, but I sense an undercurrent that most females would prefer to be the sole partner with breasts. Sadly, most Humans are wired that way.

[DebbieL]

Do any married members with observable breast development get acceptance by your wives? Please, be serious, no fantasy replies. Can you disrobe in front of your wife, expose your bra and breasts, and experience acceptance? Please explain and elaborate.

My wife has been kidding me about my "man boobs" since our early dates. She has noticed that they are getting larger, especially now that I've lost more weight around my waist. She likes them, but she worries that if they get too big to hide under a dress shirt, that would get noticed at church and at work and cause problems. She knows I'm transsexual and that in the ideal world I would probably go for a change. I've told her that if she wins the lotto I want boobs. Her concerns are more practical and logistical than actual preference. She loves when Debbie makes love to her, and realizes that if I ever died, she would have to find a girlfriend to get anything like it. I think if she knew that I would still be making good money and she didn't have any legal or financial repercussions, she'd be OK with it. She doesn't want me dressing like a ****, and I pretend to be disappointed, but I also know that I have to dress situation appropriate if I don't want to get clocked. Being the girl in the bleachers with the 3 inch heels, mid-thigh skirt, and low cut blouse (assuming I'd want to show of the cleavage of the real boobs), would probably get me more attention, and higher risk of being read. Going to a shopping center in a sensible sweater and jeans, or shorts and sensible shirt and Sketchers, may not be near as much fun, and I won't get as much attention, but I can also shop for hours without even being noticed as anything but a reasonably attractive 40-something woman. If I try to go for stunning hot 30 year old, I start out getting attention of MILF, but then they start looking too closely and then they discover I'm a guy react far more visibly, sometimes howling laughter, sometimes shouts, and sometimes derision. Much the same type of thing that GGs get when they dress too sexy and attractive, but not responding to the interest of her admirers.


Hormones essentially kill any serious performance--you are wise to be happy with the Walgreen's inserts. That is my view-you appear young, maybe too young to hang up your revolver. good luck

For some of us, that is actually a blessing. Between blood pressure meds, Avodart (an antiandrogen), and the other drugs, the testosterone level is almost nil, but that means I don't get that rush of hot flash when I see a woman in an attractive outfit, it also means that it takes much longer to have an orgasm (which may not include ejaculation) but I can enjoy the arousal for much longer as it builds in intensity. I have never been very large (about 3 inches long and 1 inch diameter when fully erect), so I never depended on what was between my legs to please a woman. As for being pleased, vibrators and magic wands can do amazing things! Not quite "Lesbian" sex, but definitely not heterosexual sex. I think the last time I had sexual intercourse was back in late 2004 or early 2005.

[Kathryn Martin]

As I said above ...... no real connection to transsexualism as it turns out

[sandra-leigh]

As I said above ...... no real connection to transsexualism as it turns out

Let's see... "I take meds to help me cope mentally and to try to have my body match as closely as my brains wants it." How is that distinguishable from transsexualism ?

[Badtranny]

Let's see... "I take meds to help me cope mentally and to try to have my body match as closely as my brains wants it." How is that distinguishable from transsexualism ?

Because Sandra, transsexualism requires a transition from one to the other. There has to be a progression, or else how do we distinguish between transsexuals that have changed everything and live their lives openly and people who are secretly wearing a teddy?

[Marleena]

I never replied to the thread earlier because it was in the CD section and I found the questions to be of a personal nature as the poster also wanted details. So I'm confused here. Does Harley indentify as a TS or a CDer on hormones?

[Nigella]

for you wannabe mods


This forum is for those with the external genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics of one sex, but whose personal identification and psychosocial configuration is that of the opposite sex.


I take meds to help me cope mentally and to try to have my body match as closely as my brains wants it.

I think that answers the point on where this thread belongs

[Marleena]

So...now that that's cleared up. We discussed the possible ramifications of breast growth of me being on HRT. Any TS woman should have this discussion with their wives in advance so there are no surprises. So.. no unexpected reaction from the wife and nothing to tell.

[ReineD]

You might correctly gather from this that I have not been open with her about the fact that I am on HRT -- she sees the medications but doesn't know what they are for and doesn't look them up and "estradiol" doesn't hint enough for her to catch on. So she'd prefer them gone, expressing her preference for my body to be more male, non-acceptance that way. She does know that I'm transgender -- but we haven't talked about my need for body changes, so in one way I have not given her a chance to be accepting of what I need full-time (as opposed to something that I might happen to enjoy dressing up "like" from time to time.)

It doesn't feel good to be doing this "right in front of my wife", counting on her not to connect the dots until it is "a good time to talk" or "she has gotten used to it". But going on hormones was something I needed to do, whereas The Talk can be procrastinated...

I would hate to be in a situation like yours. It's not about the questions of boobs vs. no boobs, it's about knowing who a partner fundamentally is. How can there be true intimacy in a relationship when such an important aspect of a person's being, namely gender, is interpreted differently by each partner?

To answer Harley's question, if I knew my husband's gender ID, my husband's goals, and if I knew the growing breasts were caused by HRT vs. mistakenly believing they were caused by weight gain or a medical condition, and if I accepted my husband's transition, then of course I'd accept her breast growth.

If I felt I could not be in a romantic relationship with another woman, then I wouldn't be able to accept and support this. But, rather than try to curtail my husband's transition, I would suggest that we both move on from our relationship so that we could each find compatible partners. If my husband did not identify as a TS but still wanted breasts, I have no idea how I'd feel.

If my husband and I did not have the same understanding of his/her gender ID and he/she either attempted to hide/misconstrue/not clarify the cause of breast growth, this would cause a major rift in our relationship.

[Silentpartner GG SO]

If my husband started growing breasts due to HRT I'd be moving into the spare room - or he would.

[Kathryn Martin]

Reine, what about breast growth in case of both anti-androgens and estrogen to combat prostate cancer, is that an acceptable boob? What about gynecomastia in a young man that never goes away?

I cannot imagine starting body altering treatments for the sole purpose of "try to have my body match as closely as my brains wants it" without full and complete disclosure to my spouse. As you say true intimacy which should be basis of a relationship means that you are no longer the master in your own house so to speak. In your decision to give yourself to a life partner you are entirely free. In your decisions following you have subordinated your freedom to this commitment. And the cornerstone of such a commitment is that you do not ever make life altering decisions without the partner having a fundamental, deep and life affecting interest in them. So many believe that their need to do what they must, such as transitioning is the cause of their marriage breakup.

I say that if your marriage breaks up over transitioning then it is just an perceived "honorable" out of an otherwise unworkable situation. If you are not honest to your spouse about what moves you much greater things than transition are at issue between you, and if your spouse rejects your transition and refuses to converse with you about your needs the same applies. People are so good at blowing smoke. If you don't like your spouse and have grown tired of her or him don't attempt to cover your failings up with a straw argument about transition.

If you are a spouse and cannot accompany your partner through a transition then don't cover up the real reason which is variously self definition by others (social embarrassment), inability to care for your life partner (loss of love), and many others.

If you are a spouse and cannot tell your partner what you existentially experience and how that will affect you and your partner, then don't call the reason transition, but call it what it is: you really no longer care enough about your relationship anymore.

It is astonishing how much lying we do for comfort, isn't it.

[elizabethamy]

Good points by Kathryn, Melissa et al about commitment, unconditional love, lying, and the purpose of the transsexual forum. But I'm struck by the way we TS's of a certain age assume the validity of the "gender binary." The younger generation embraces the bigender, genderqueer, middle path, use your own term for not entirely male or female. It's ironic that we embrace the very binary that is the source of the "bind" that has trapped so many of us for so long.

In my case, I am either somewhere in the middle, or not fully understanding my situation yet, or perhaps just too much of a natural compromiser in every way of life to see myself as a "woman in a man's body." I go through life increasingly alienated from the male world but not a member of the female world. Do I have to get my own forum now?

elizabethamy

[ReineD]

Reine, what about breast growth in case of both anti-androgens and estrogen to combat prostate cancer, is that an acceptable boob? What about gynecomastia in a young man that never goes away?

Absolutely, if the intent is not to have breasts in order to relieve GID. One of my sons was beginning to develop some volume increase on his pecs during high school when he was gaining/losing weight in between his two preferred sports, football and wrestling. He did not consider this "breast growth" where he felt some inner satisfaction over having something to put into a bra. He was never embarrassed or pleased about this, it just was what it was, and it never occurred to anyone that he might have been concealing an alternate gender ID.

I didn't word my post well. The issue is hiding a gender ID out of a perception that the wife would not approve. I also agree with your other point: A wife who knows that she cannot be married to another woman, should not pretend this is due to social embarrassment ... although, I can see the fear of social repercussions being a factor in the decision to stay the course through transition, but this all depends on individual circumstances.

[Frances]

In my case, I am either somewhere in the middle, or not fully understanding my situation yet, or perhaps just too much of a natural compromiser in every way of life to see myself as a "woman in a man's body." I go through life increasingly alienated from the male world but not a member of the female world. Do I have to get my own forum now?

Maybe there should be a forum for happy in-betweeners.

I have very stereotypically male interests. I play guitar, I love hockey (not just the games, but the news, trades–everything about it). I do electronics, etc., but I am still a woman.

The surest way to be a member of the female world is to become a female (no penis). The physical binary is just fine with me and with almost everyone who transitions all the way. Maybe it is us who need a special forum (males who have become females or are on they way to doing it).

[ReineD]

But I'm struck by the way we TS's of a certain age assume the validity of the "gender binary." The younger generation embraces the bigender, genderqueer, middle path, use your own term for not entirely male or female. It's ironic that we embrace the very binary that is the source of the "bind" that has trapped so many of us for so long.

This is true, although there's a difference between believing that people do fall at various points along a gender spectrum, and sexual/romantic attraction. I do not believe in the gender binary. I count among my friends many people who fall outside of it. But at the same time, I am not sexually/romantically attracted to females.

... at least, this is true so far in my life. If my SO were to discover that she is not dualgender, and she is in fact TS, I'd have to reexamine all of this all over again. There's no telling what would be my conclusion, since I've not been in this situation.

[kellycan27]

It would be a done deal at cding or transitioning.. much less him growing breasts. just saying

[Kathryn Martin]

Elizabeth, I would actually disagree with you as well. I believe that transsexuals think that the sex binary is valid. The gender binary does not exists in the same way at all. Since the beginning of time gender variance is part of the human experience. Transsexuals know that they are part of the extreme ends of the gender "spectrum" if you will they are either men or women. Their body appears to belie this factual experience. As a result they must bring the body into congruence.

That does not mean that there is no recognition of the gender fluidity that others may experience. I embrace in my knowledge and acceptance all of them, and I am not the judge of my neighbor. What they experience is as valid and as valuable as my experiences. But if you say to me that I am the same then I balk and say: not so. One of the biggest issues is the determination by gender variant persons that we are all the same, yet all different. This view makes transsexualism as a condition indistinguishable from gender variance and reduces it to a situation only applicable to the individual afflicted with the condition. This is turn leads to the conclusion that the health care needs of transsexuals are not important because they are just "another expression on the gender spectrum".

Embracing the binary of sex, that is female vs. male reproductive physiological and physical configuration, is scientifically, socially and emotionally the obvious choice. Embracing the gender binary is not. If you do it will trap you. If you read Frances response correctly it reveals the fallacy of attempting to define gender as a binary. Gender as a binary is a social construct (or you could call it the rule) which has 7 billion exceptions on this planet. What you experience as a trap is that others impose social standards of expression, conduct and behavior on you. If those "standards" did not exists there would be no trap and a large number of persons would not transition. These people are gender variant and are pushed and herded into improvident decisions and actions which they otherwise would never undertake. Only persons experiencing incongruency in the physical and physiological sense would.

Sexual orientation is an entirely different matter. In my view it is immutable. That does NOT MEAN that relationships MUST FALTER because one of the partners transforms his or her body. As Reine says "there is no telling what would be conclusion". It means when confronted with such a situation she would not pre-suppose and answer and leave but rather deal with it which may or may not mean that the relationship might end. It's up to the persons to work on this until resolution. It's the effort that counts here. How would you know what you would experience until you try it and tenderly explore the unknown.

[ReineD]

Gosh, I need to learn to express myself more precisely!

Again, I must alter something that I said, when I wrote, "I do not believe in the gender binary". I do believe there are people who do identify strictly at either end, male or female (I am one of them), in fact this describes most people, but I do not believe this is all there is. I see gender identity as a spectrum with a smaller percentage of people who are not at either end. I haven't given much thought about a sex binary though, except to say that I view M2Fs who only want breasts (for example) and not full GRS as either being dualgender or fundamentally male if their reasons for wanting breasts are fetish.


If those "standards" did not exists there would be no trap and a large number of persons would not transition. These people are gender variant and are pushed and herded into improvident decisions and actions which they otherwise would never undertake. Only persons experiencing incongruency in the physical and physiological sense would.

Are you saying that, because we embrace the binary of sex, non-binary gender variants (people who are not true TSs) feel pushed into making the decision to transition?

[Kathryn Martin]

Reine, I believe that two aspects effect this result of pushing people into transition that should not need to transition.

Firstly, we think that sex and gender are the same thing when they are not. The problem is that gender is a social construct not a fact in and of itself. Sex is a biological fact.

Secondly, arising as standard from the gender construct is acceptance of a binary system that in fact is not and never was. Every person including you and me have some fluidity in their expression as a woman or a man. Many very manly men have aspects to their personality that do not meet the gender paradigm that results from the social construct of gender. The same applies to women.

Because many gender variant persons believe that their individual form of gender expression is not acceptable, they suffer, often increasingly from the pressures of the paradigm against their own experience. For many it can reach a point where transition appears to be the only way to find acceptance of their individual expression. Herded along by the so called support groups and their undifferentiated "advice" decisions are made that would never be made if their individual expression would be acceptable in and of itself. Think about how feminists were perceived for the longest time as "women trying to be men" when in fact all they did have a personal expression that did not sit well with societal standards and expectations. It is the same kind of dynamic here.

If society would simply accept that vast spectrum of personal individual expression then the search for acceptance would immediately end. No transition would be necessary.

Not so for transsexuals. I had to have my body brought into congruence. I did not a hoot what people thought about what I wore and how I behaved which was very much not manly before transition. People told me outright and not in jest that I was not a real man. Acceptance has never been my issue. Having a body matching my soul configuration did.

I hope this clarifies.

[ReineD]

Not only does it clarify, it solidifies. :)

On the fluidity of gender expression: like you, I do not look at people's preferences or personality traits as being particularly masculine or feminine. To do so would believe in stereotypes. To mention a few examples, I know GGs who don't give two hoots about makeup/heels/dresses, who are athletic and outdoorsy, or who are analytical. And I know men who much prefer being the chefs in their households, who prefer intellectual hobbies over guzzling beer/fast cars/watching sports, or who have a developed sense of aesthetics. Yet these people identify solidly with a gender that is congruent with their bodies.

However, I don't know what makes people feel internally aligned with one gender over the other given that there is such a wide spectrum of behaviors and personal preferences that is acceptable among both genders ... as you mentioned earlier, 7 billion different combinations of this. :) If a male, for example, loves ballet and the arts, this will not make him believe that he is female. Nor will a girl who loves competition and excels at playing soccer believe that she is male.

It is among the crossdressing population that I see the sharpest division of preferences/affinities that are considered either male or female, the most salient being anything that has to do with cross-gender expression specifically in terms of appearance (a love of makeup, pantyhose, painted fingernails, long hair, shaved bodies, sexy lingerie, designer fashions, or what have you), as a contrast to the GGs who can't be bothered shaving their legs unless they have to, or keeping up with fashion, or wearing makeup and who do not feel any less female because of this since they know that their bodies align with their gender ID.

And I've noticed the same among the transitioned/transitioning transwomen. The focus is more on aligning the body with the mind than in segregating any behaviors or clothing preferences into what is considered masculine or feminine and placing importance on this.


... I don't really know where I'm going with this. :p

[Badtranny]

... I don't really know where I'm going with this. :p

You don't have to go anywhere with it. Discussion is worthy simply for the sake of discussion. ;-)

[Julie Gaum]

Another consideration: When I was in my 20s I was in excellent shape with almost no fat due to the military and then rowing for the U. of P.. I never developed a pot
as I was jogging for many years and exercisng my dogs. Now, as the years progressed my pecs turned to flab even though my abdomen stayed flat. Bottom line: I
always wear a 38 B bra with no padding needed. This is not unusual as I've seen my older relatives in the shower and they too developed boobs of sorts as have non-family members. So for those heteros still in this thread that's something you might look forward to.
Julie

[sandra-leigh]

However, I don't know what makes people feel internally aligned with one gender over the other given that there is such a wide spectrum of behaviors and personal preferences that is acceptable among both genders ... as you mentioned earlier, 7 billion different combinations of this. :) If a male, for example, loves ballet and the arts, this will not make him believe that he is female.

I really struggled with this for a number of months. How to know if I was just an male with uncommon tastes, or was something else. I tried to think it through, and found "evidence" on both sides, and couldn't "prove it" one way or the other. It was driving me batty (good thing that battybattybats was around to talk to about that :heehee:)

So how did I decide? Answer: I didn't!! It was beyond my capacity to intellectually analyze! Instead, one day in the middle of mentally reacting to a posting on this system, I said to myself something like, "Hah, that wouldn't happen to me because I'm transgendered!". And having said that to myself, I suddenly knew it was true, knew that it was the right answer, knew that everything fit, knew that there was no more question for me about whether I was just an unusual male or "something else". And as soon as it was clear to me, I felt so much better. It was a relief to be transgender, a relief to finally know rather than to struggle.

What makes me feel like I am definitely not male? I cannot point to anything objective that cannot be explained as merely stretching the boundaries without crossing over them. And I have stopped trying to answer that question. I worked hard to try to answer objectively and I couldn't, and ended up going on inexplicable internal feelings, upon a variety of internal revelation.

I suspect that if I had managed to "prove" through point and counter-point, through logical debate with myself, that I was just an unusual male, that I would have been unsatisfied. My revelation did not just answer the question: it made me happier, and more peaceful.

[Elizabeth]

Reine, what about breast growth in case of both anti-androgens and estrogen to combat prostate cancer, is that an acceptable boob? What about gynecomastia in a young man that never goes away?

I cannot imagine starting body altering treatments for the sole purpose of "try to have my body match as closely as my brains wants it" without full and complete disclosure to my spouse. As you say true intimacy which should be basis of a relationship means that you are no longer the master in your own house so to speak. In your decision to give yourself to a life partner you are entirely free. In your decisions following you have subordinated your freedom to this commitment. And the cornerstone of such a commitment is that you do not ever make life altering decisions without the partner having a fundamental, deep and life affecting interest in them. So many believe that their need to do what they must, such as transitioning is the cause of their marriage breakup.

I say that if your marriage breaks up over transitioning then it is just an perceived "honorable" out of an otherwise unworkable situation. If you are not honest to your spouse about what moves you much greater things than transition are at issue between you, and if your spouse rejects your transition and refuses to converse with you about your needs the same applies. People are so good at blowing smoke. If you don't like your spouse and have grown tired of her or him don't attempt to cover your failings up with a straw argument about transition.

If you are a spouse and cannot accompany your partner through a transition then don't cover up the real reason which is variously self definition by others (social embarrassment), inability to care for your life partner (loss of love), and many others.

If you are a spouse and cannot tell your partner what you existentially experience and how that will affect you and your partner, then don't call the reason transition, but call it what it is: you really no longer care enough about your relationship anymore.

It is astonishing how much lying we do for comfort, isn't it.

This is a very good post in my opinion. I spent many years lying to everyone about who I was, but the biggest lie I ever told was to myself. I married my first wife without telling her I thought I was a woman. I thought I was going to take that secret to the grave. But because of that mistake, my ex was not given the opportunity to make an informed decision about marrying me. So no matter she didn't keep her vows because she was not given the chance to op out. We already had two kids and a mortgage when she found out. That made everything my fault. Trying to convince her to be the person I needed, just wasn't going to happen. So we had an 18 year marriage of resentments.

I wish I would have given full disclosure. Because then if she stayed with me, she would never have leveraged that against me. I wouldn't have regretted marrying her and she wouldn't have regretted marrying me.

My second wife has only known me as Elizabeth. We have 100% disclosure of everything. She knows the very worst about me and I know the very worst about her. So we never have to worry about finding anything out or having to keep a lie, which of course is the part that ends up hurting everyone.

Don't keep secrets. You only end up hiding from yourself and hating yourself for lying.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[ReineD]

"Hah, that wouldn't happen to me because I'm transgendered!". And having said that to myself, I suddenly knew it was true, knew that it was the right answer, knew that everything fit, knew that there was no more question for me about whether I was just an unusual male or "something else". And as soon as it was clear to me, I felt so much better. It was a relief to be transgender, a relief to finally know rather than to struggle.

I'm glad that you've come to terms with who you are and you are doing your best to deal with it. But, "transgender" is somewhat ambiguous. It's OK to fall between the binaries somewhere along the spectrum when it comes to internal gender ID. I dare say that most everyone on this forum, other than the GGs and the TSs, are in this category, even the CDers who identify male but who do fall just a little to the right (or left :p) of the male end of binary.

But, as Kathryn pointed out and I fully agree, society is not quite prepared to deal with people who present an ambiguous external gender. Most everyone will agree that the sex-binary must be adhered to, at least in the society in which we live. And by this I do not mean a delay in obtaining SRS, since most people have no idea what's under someone's clothes, but all the secondary characteristics that don't quite jive: a male face and male hairline with makeup. A male body with women's clothes. Or a person who maybe has breasts, or maybe it is gynecomastia, with some items of female clothing mixed in with male-looking clothing. Or someone who gets away with presenting somewhat male to some people and somewhat female to others. And this is hugely difficult and unfortunate for the people who do fall in the middle and who cannot say, "I am a male", or "I am a female". At least, transsexuals do have the option, as difficult as it is for some, to begin and follow through on the arduous path towards transition and this means for most, much expense towards electrolysis, FFs, and SRS in addition to risking the loss of valuable relationships. But, the end result is a gender that society does understand.

If someone begins a course of HRT while trying to maintain a somewhat male impression to either the people at work, a spouse, family, or friends, I can't see how they can truly live comfortably along that fence in the long term (although if they can pull it off, kudos to them). My SO does falls somewhere in the gender middle and she made the decision years ago that she would find a way to always be who s/he feels s/he is inside, while presenting either fully female at times or fully male at other times because she recognized the strength or society's rules. She did not want to become an outcast. And so a part of her decision conscious or unconscious (I believe) was to not alter her body unless she was prepared to go all the way and this means full time with all the necessary surgeries.

If someone is transsexual, in my view she does not do herself any favors by holding back and trying to live in the middle ground. I dare say that her sanity will be threatened if she attempts this. If someone is not transsexual but not fully male (in the case of a MtF), this is hugely difficult but still I think that partial body changes are a mistake too, since it keeps her perpetually on that fence in terms of dealing with all the people around her who can't quite comprehend who s/he is.

[Sara Jessica]

If someone is transsexual, in my view she does not do herself any favors by holding back and trying to live in the middle ground. I dare say that her sanity will be threatened if she attempts this. If someone is not transsexual but not fully male (in the case of a MtF), this is hugely difficult but still I think that partial body changes are a mistake too, since it keeps her perpetually on that fence in terms of dealing with all the people around her who can't quite comprehend who s/he is.

Reine, you're talking about my elephant!!!

But there is a difference in that my elephant isn't sporting breasts au natural. And her contemplation of such a thing is limited to fleeting thoughts because really, my wife would have some serious issues if I went down that road (I've enough issues already given the body mods I've done thus far).

Regardless, I'm a bit troubled by the "more trans than thou" which is taking hold of this section of the forum. My own diagnosis has been dismissed in the past because I was not personally pushed to the brink (that I haven't felt the pain of others which made such fateful decisions a requirement) and now TS is defined as the physical act of transition, going all the way, of walking the walk, so to speak.

Alas, part of me thinks I am alone on this middle path of mine, taking my gender issues way too seriously for some on the CD side of the fence and not serious enough for this section. Yet I know there are many out there who are just like me, even without a forum for "happy in-betweeners"...without the boobs, of course. YMMV.

Paraphrasing a quote I heard earlier this year, transition is doing as little as possible to make you happy.

[EnglishRose]

If someone is transsexual, in my view she does not do herself any favors by holding back and trying to live in the middle ground. I dare say that her sanity will be threatened if she attempts this.

I can attest that this is totally, utterly true.

[Frances]

Regardless, I'm a bit troubled by the "more trans than thou" which is taking hold of this section of the forum. My own diagnosis has been dismissed in the past because I was not personally pushed to the brink (that I haven't felt the pain of others which made such fateful decisions a requirement) and now TS is defined as the physical act of transition, going all the way, of walking the walk, so to speak.

Who said TS was defined as the physical act of transition in this thread?

[Sara Jessica]

Who said TS was defined as the physical act of transition in this thread?

Ummmm....


Because Sandra, transsexualism requires a transition from one to the other. There has to be a progression, or else how do we distinguish between transsexuals that have changed everything and live their lives openly and people who are secretly wearing a teddy?

I guess it will be never-ending and something I just have to accept, that there will always be somewhat of a gulf between many facets of our community.

Assuming OP identifies as such, does her acquisition of breasts by whatever means make her less transsexual? Does my choosing to balance my life on a middle path make me less so? Or does one get the name tag with diagnosis but then loses it should they fail to launch?

But Frances, you were much more subtle, talking about a "female" club for those who truly have arrived.


The surest way to be a member of the female world is to become a female (no penis). The physical binary is just fine with me and with almost everyone who transitions all the way. Maybe it is us who need a special forum (males who have become females or are on they way to doing it).

Therefore, you said it as well. Really, it's the same difference.

[Frances]

But Frances, you were much more subtle, talking about a "woman-only" club for those who truly have arrived. Really, it's the same difference.

I always stay out of discussions on terminology. Since people cannot agree on a common definition, discussions get heated over misunderstandings. I was trying to explain the difference between interests and a physical imperative. Like ReineD pointed out, there is a lot of talk on this forum about make-up and clothes, and their significance. I was trying to underline the fact that women feel like women and know that they are women whatever they are doing and however they are dressed.

The site is called Crossdressers.com, and though there is a transsexual forum, it is open for everyone. That means that some of the opinions and viewpoints will come from gender-variant people who identify as men. I stay out of the crossdressing sections, but I understand that CDers will enter the TS section. I wish there were a section for people who have transitioned (or are on their way). I really do. It does not mean that I consider myself superior. It's a matter of common ground and knowing that answers to questions or comments will come from people with similar life-experiences. There are sub-groups like that at Susan's, but I like a lot of the people here, and have been member for 7 years.

I sometimes find the transsexual forum a little too broad, but do not wish to change it. Instead, I am wishing for my own little corner.

Here's the thing with me. I understand that not everyone can get the surgery, and for lots of reasons (money, health concerns, age, etc.), and I wish they could get their identities changed legally in all countries. If you live as a woman 24/7, and have been doing so for a few years, then your papers should not be a cause of concern. So, if you live as a woman, then that fact should be recognized. However, I don't understand how a woman could want to have a penis. I am not saying it's wrong or that I am better for having had the surgery, just that I can't comprehend it.

[kellycan27]

Im a gg and my hubby has some "man boobies" cause of being a bigger male. Now does this mean i accept yes cause its a part of him. Do i wish he had smaller ones and i was the ones with the boobs yes. Cause simply put i sometimes want a strong man and the manly type on occasion. Does this mean i dont accept him heck no.. He is an awesome dad and loving partner. Know that this sounds all confusing didnt mean to be. Just one gg/partners point of you. If you cant love the person then your not as in love with them as you thought..

Your husband's "man boobies" ...Are they by design or circumstance? In other words did he grow them with the intent to emulate female breasts or were they a side effect of his being a "large" guy? If he wasn't a big guy would you still feel the same if he wanted to grow boobs?

[Laurie Ann]

Kathryn, as usual direct and to the point we women have boobs so no biggie

[Kathryn Martin]

What makes me feel like I am definitely not male? I cannot point to anything objective that cannot be explained as merely stretching the boundaries without crossing over them. And I have stopped trying to answer that question. I worked hard to try to answer objectively and I couldn't, and ended up going on inexplicable internal feelings, upon a variety of internal revelation.

I suspect that if I had managed to "prove" through point and counter-point, through logical debate with myself, that I was just an unusual male, that I would have been unsatisfied. My revelation did not just answer the question: it made me happier, and more peaceful.

Sandra, I agree with you that to some extent there is no objective answer to many of these questions if applied to an individual biography. When you made the statement to yourself "I am definitely not male" you measured yourself against what? The yardstick you used was a conception of maleness which was informed by societal expectations and gender paradigms. Sometimes it is really important to look at examples. Some of the most masculine men I have met in my life had a deep interest in art, literature, fashion, cooking, they picked flowers and thought sport was something you did to keep healthy not something you watched. They danced fabulously, wrote poetry and cried when something moved them. But they grew up in a society and in times where those things were fostered and supported, where to be a full and proper man required you to have these interests and abilities. And no one would ever have thought of them as anything less than fabulous examples of their gender.

So, what makes you feel not male is in my view gender expectations that are culturally determined. As you explained the revelation made you happy. It gave you peace because in some ways it opened to the door for you to be who you are and permit yourself to embrace yourself. The reality of giving permission to oneself against the social paradigm confronting yourself is one of great importance in my view because it creates the need for a pathology of self. This means for gender variant persons that they must assert a condition (being transgender for instance) when in fact no such condition in fact exists. If you had been brought and lived in a society in which the full spectrum of gender expression was embraced and fostered, would you have ever have asked the question “what makes me feel that I am definitely not male?” Instead, being confronted with a strong gender paradigm, albeit false, you must ask the question whether you conform to the false paradigm. In not doing so gender variant persons are being put to a false dichotomous choice: are you male or female. In order to explain the “outside the paradigm” we pathologize and parley a common variance into medical justification for behavior that should be recognized as common in the first place.


I'm glad that you've come to terms with who you are and you are doing your best to deal with it. But, "transgender" is somewhat ambiguous. It's OK to fall between the binaries somewhere along the spectrum when it comes to internal gender ID. I dare say that most everyone on this forum, other than the GGs and the TSs, are in this category, even the CDers who identify male but who do fall just a little to the right (or left :p) of the male end of binary.

Reine, even GG, TS and GM persons are to some extent fluid in their gender expression. We all do things and behave in ways that would under a strict but false scrutiny be considered not conforming to our false gender paradigm in the society we all live in.

[ColleenA]

The site is called Crossdressers.com, and though there is a transsexual forum, it is open for everyone. ... I wish there were a section for people who have transitioned (or are on their way).

As I understand it, Safe Haven is the section you are asking about. Am I wrong?

[Frances]

As I understand it, Safe Haven is the section you are asking about. Am I wrong?

Yes, but nobody goes there. The trafic is so slow!

[ReineD]

Regardless, I'm a bit troubled by the "more trans than thou" which is taking hold of this section of the forum. My own diagnosis has been dismissed in the past because I was not personally pushed to the brink (that I haven't felt the pain of others which made such fateful decisions a requirement) and now TS is defined as the physical act of transition, going all the way, of walking the walk, so to speak.

Sara, I'm not in the loop here for obvious reasons, so maybe I can give you my perspective as a non-trans outsider.

I never see these discussions as "I am more trans than you", as if there is a hierarchy of validity. I see it more as, "My male self is causing me more distress than anything else in my life and if I don't get rid of him or the pretense of him, then I'll go insane. I can no longer even attempt to try to strike a balance. I'm at the proverbial end of my rope."

Most of the transitioners who post here regularly did have male lives for years and I imagine many of them tried their hardest to make it work, hence the reason for transitioning in one's 30s, 40s, or 50s. So, you're not alone and you're not fundamentally different. You're just at a different point.

Also, you've got to admit that even you, Sara, would feel differently about yourself after having spent a year living full time (say you had the opportunity to go on sabbatical somewhere), than after being yourself for a day and then reverting to guy mode for family and work. So it does make sense that a transitioner would feel significantly different about herself after all options of being male are permanently removed. But does this mean that her internal gender ID component of the three components that comprise gender (physical self, gender role, and gender ID) is more female now than it was before the permanent switch? I don't think so ... although I could be wrong. I can't imagine someone like Kathryn (sorry to pick on you Kathryn) feeling that her gender ID was any less on the female end of the binary, before she transitioned, than it is today. But, the other two components did change (physical body and gender role engaged in). Don't you think it makes sense that this should make a difference?

No one is saying that you do not feel you are a woman internally.

[EnglishRose]

Yes, but nobody goes there. The trafic is so slow!

That's the thing - we're only a niche of this whole website, hence Safe Haven being relatively slow. I suggest you add another site as well as staying here, if you want something more lively AND transition related (there are such places out there).

[Frances]

That's the thing - we're only a niche of this whole website, hence Safe Haven being relatively slow. I suggest you add another site as well as staying here, if you want something more lively AND transition related (there are such places out there).

I came to the same conclusion, and posted in two threads of the post-op section of Susan's after lunch. I don't really know anyone there though and I really dig some of the members here, you know? I will have to be a bi-forum person (or a two forum spirit?).

[cyndigurl45]

My first wife was cool with my dressing just figured it was part of my intersex condition, she was even cool with my bi-orchi said it wade me look more like a girl down there. I was still doing most everything in drab. But when my boobs really took off and even in drab I looked like a woman I went from an eh A to a very full B over a years time she totally freeqed out. She never came right out and said OMG I'm married to a woman but that was the just of things. Funny 100 years later were stil friends??

I would add that my husband likes my boobs ;-)

[Kathryn Martin]

You have got to be kiddin' me ..... enough of the two spirits your one person whole and sound:naughty:D


I came to the same conclusion, and posted in two threads of the post-op section of Susan's after lunch. I don't really know anyone there though and I really dig some of the members here, you know? I will have to be a bi-forum person (or a two forum spirit?).

[LeaP]

That's the thing - we're only a niche of this whole website, hence Safe Haven being relatively slow.

A LOT of the TS forum threads could have been posted in Safe Haven, and would have picked up the activity there. There are only two conclusions I can see. Either it's a chicken and egg situation, or the OPs actually want the participation of the non-TS population. ... Which they then complain about!

I think the TS population is more than large enough to support Safe Haven with a healthy level of activity. I would prefer that more threads in the transsexual forum were posted in Safe Haven instead. They aren't, and personally I'm a subscriber to the chicken and egg view. So my approach is this: If something is personal, I take it to Safe Haven or to PMs. If not, I post my thread in the transsexual forum.

[Kathryn Martin]

If not, I post my thread in the transsexual forum.

This is the reason I no longer post original posts here. But I do comment..... just can't help myself

[Badtranny]

Yes, but nobody goes there. The trafic is so slow!

Is Safe Haven for transitioners only? That would be interesting but I have ZERO interest in joining a private forum. I like my pearls to be seen by as many people as possible. That's also why I don't PM much. I'd rather discuss whatever it is in public.

[EnglishRose]

Is Safe Haven for transitioners only? That would be interesting but I have ZERO interest in joining a private forum. I like my pearls to be seen by as many people as possible. That's also why I don't PM much. I'd rather discuss whatever it is in public.

Nope, another forum I frequent is, but Safe Haven is for all transsexual women.

[sandra-leigh]

Safe Haven is an invitation-only forum that you can ask for an invitation to.

[Badtranny]

Safe Haven is an invitation-only forum that you can ask for an invitation to.

That would never happen.

[Kathryn Martin]

Well, can I invite you?

That would never happen.

[Badtranny]

Well, can I invite you?

LOL

Don't test me lady! ;-)

I don't like invitation only stuff. I like to be out in the open and unprotected.

[Kathryn Martin]

Oh I agree, but some things are better spoken in private
LOL

Don't test me lady! ;-)

I don't like invitation only stuff. I like to be out in the open and unprotected.

[LeaP]

You want to hear what the kick is? The discourse, by and large, is much more civil in safe haven. Given that the negative tone in the open transsexual forum is attributed to this so-called brutal honesty of the transsexuals, it should give people pause.

[ColleenA]

Yes, but nobody goes there. The traffic is so slow!

I had no idea of that. I only put it out there because you had commented a few times in the thread about having no place for transitioners/transitioned only.



I don't like invitation only stuff. I like to be out in the open and unprotected.

So, is your view akin to Groucho's "I would never join a club that would have me as a member"?

[Badtranny]

So, is your view akin to Groucho's "I would never join a club that would have me as a member"?

LOL

Yes you're probably right. I have always been suspicious of any group that would pursue me and a little too ambivalent about joining anything else. I don't think any trans person ever escapes the effects of growing up confused and alone.

Some pain leaves a scar, but some just leaves a stain.

[sandra-leigh]

I don't think any trans person ever escapes the effects of growing up confused and alone.


I had, for decades, considered my childhood estrangement to be a product of my being both bright and physically uncoordinated. But once I started dealing with gender struggles, in my mid 40's, I realized that there had to have been at least one more factor, and that if I had already been transgender without myself realizing it, that that would account for rather a lot. Emotional scars, however they happened.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

LOL

I don't think any trans person ever escapes the effects of growing up confused and alone.



I think this is very true..

add to that for me it took 40+ years to realize that i was alone, that i felt like no one knew that i even existed...talk about a slap in the face...

its no wonder that we endlessly debate the meaning of labels and terms that describe us...

[StephanieC]

To answer Harley's question, if I knew my husband's gender ID, my husband's goals, and if I knew the growing breasts were caused by HRT vs. mistakenly believing they were caused by weight gain or a medical condition, and if I accepted my husband's transition, then of course I'd accept her breast growth.

If I felt I could not be in a romantic relationship with another woman, then I wouldn't be able to accept and support this. But, rather than try to curtail my husband's transition, I would suggest that we both move on from our relationship so that we could each find compatible partners. If my husband did not identify as a TS but still wanted breasts, I have no idea how I'd feel.

If my husband and I did not have the same understanding of his/her gender ID and he/she either attempted to hide/misconstrue/not clarify the cause of breast growth, this would cause a major rift in our relationship.

Reine, I really respect your postings. I think you tend to have very compelling arguments and succinct, well-stated and well-thought postings. I think the situation gets complex if both parties are evolving in their sense of themselves as well as possible paths for a relationship, particularly if it is many years old. For me, I also don't really understand the term "romantic": I think this means different things to different people, especially if you believe in multiple lives (how do "souls" relate).

At any rate, for me, I would love to have a situation where things are clearly-defined and/or have been known for a while. In these cases, I think it is easier to discuss the future. Or perhaps I'm just afraid.

Anyway, I really appreciate this post.

-stephani

[Kathryn Martin]

its no wonder that we endlessly debate the meaning of labels and terms that describe us...

The debate seems to come from the usage of terms rather than the terms themselves. I am baffled at three apparently interchangeable uses: transsexual - transgender -gender variant for something completely undefined in the minds of the vast majority of people in general as well as on this board.

Transgender: an umbrella term that leaves everybody from transsexuals to gender variant persons to crossdressers and fetishists out in the rain and describes nothing;

Transsexual: persons who suffer from a condition caused by their physiological and physical sex configuration being incongruent with their innate gender;

Gender Variant: persons who cannot reconcile their personal gender experience with societal expectations and paradigms;

Fetishists: persons who use of some object, or part of the body, as a stimulus in the course of attaining sexual gratification, such as feminine appearance, as a shoe, a lock of hair, or underclothes, as feet, as .

If we could agree on these which in my view accurately describe and define most of the persons that frequent this forum for the purpose of obtaining information and support, then maybe we could start educating the public and know of what we speak when we are here.

[sandra-leigh]

Transsexual: persons who suffer from a condition caused by their physiological and physical sex configuration being incongruent with their innate gender;

With regards to "suffer", I have seen some members indicate that they do not "suffer" (e.g., anguish), that they always knew what they were and were always comfortable with it, and SRS for them is "merely correcting a biological mistake". At the same time, though, it is very common for people to come to realization of their transsexuality through a period of suffering (e.g., anxiety, emotional pain, depression) -- so common that some people speak of the entire field as being concerned with "gender dysphoria". Even here, we tend to recognize "transsexuals" and kin through their discussions of their dysphoria (suffering). So it would probably be a good idea for us to clarify which kind of "suffer" we refer to.

I also think we should clarify what we mean by "physical sex configuration" for this purpose.

Is "physical sex configuration" chromosome, XY vs XX? If so then how do the intersex fit, and the Androgen Insensitivity people fit? There does seem to be a meaning to intersex people "transitioning" rather than just "changing clothes", that it does seem common for intersexed people to appear to go through very much the same dysphoria and suffering and "transitioning" process as non-intersexed.

Is "physical sex configuration" instead body parts? If so then is internal conflicts with regards to "secondary sexual characteristics" part of this discussion? Facial hair, body hair, facial shape, breasts? I pretty much had body morphic dysphoria over my lack of distinct breasts, and loss of male sexual function was not too high a price for me. On the other hand, I don't have much interest as to what my "primary sexual characteristics" (genitalia) are, so a definition of "physical sex configuration" that is rooted in terms of "primary sexual characteristics" would not include me -- and also would possibly not include no-op transsexuals.

[Kathryn Martin]

Suffer: If you are a person with a biological mistake you may very well be alright to be who you are and know who you are but nevertheless suffer from a condition that caused the mistake. No other meaning is expressed or implied

Physiological and Physical Sex Configuration: No breasts, penis, hairy, coarser bone structure, one less rib, testicles, testosterone etc. = male; Breasts, vagina, less and finer hair, finer bone structure, ovaries, estrogen etc. = female. No other meaning is expressed or implied;

Intersex: “Intersex” is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male." No other meaning is expressed or implied;

Androgen Insensitivity: Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) is when a person who is genetically male (who has one X and one Y chromosome) is resistant to male hormones (called androgens). As a result, the person has some or all of the physical traits of a woman, but the genetic makeup of a man. No other meaning is expressed or implied.

Transitioning: is a verb defined as: Passage from one form, state, style, or place to another. No other meaning is expressed or implied.

NON-OP transsexual: Is a contradiction in terms. Since transsexuality is defined as a "condition where the person experiences it's gender as incongruent with their physical sex and seeks to repair their sex to match their gender" they cannot be non-op. They can be pre-op but but never non-op. If you don't seek closest approximation then how can you "change thoroughly" your "sex". (trans a prefix occurring in loanwords from Latin ( transcend; transfix ); on this model (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/model), used with the meanings “across,” “beyond,” “through,” “changing thoroughly,” “transverse,” in combination with elements of any origin: transisthmian; trans-Siberian; transempirical; transvalue.)

This whole discussion about meaning of words that have an assigned meaning by common usage is nonsense. These words do not mean what you ascribe to them but what their actual plain meaning says. So don't confuse your emotional reaction to them with meaning.

Using precise language defines the bright red line between gender variance and transsexualism. You either express yourself outside of the gender binary or you don't. If your gender experience and expression varies from your what your sex is and you have no existential need to bring your sex into congruence then you are gender variant not transsexual.




With regards to "suffer", I have seen some members indicate that they do not "suffer" (e.g., anguish), that they always knew what they were and were always comfortable with it, and SRS for them is "merely correcting a biological mistake". At the same time, though, it is very common for people to come to realization of their transsexuality through a period of suffering (e.g., anxiety, emotional pain, depression) -- so common that some people speak of the entire field as being concerned with "gender dysphoria". Even here, we tend to recognize "transsexuals" and kin through their discussions of their dysphoria (suffering). So it would probably be a good idea for us to clarify which kind of "suffer" we refer to.

I also think we should clarify what we mean by "physical sex configuration" for this purpose.

Is "physical sex configuration" chromosome, XY vs XX? If so then how do the intersex fit, and the Androgen Insensitivity people fit? There does seem to be a meaning to intersex people "transitioning" rather than just "changing clothes", that it does seem common for intersexed people to appear to go through very much the same dysphoria and suffering and "transitioning" process as non-intersexed.

Is "physical sex configuration" instead body parts? If so then is internal conflicts with regards to "secondary sexual characteristics" part of this discussion? Facial hair, body hair, facial shape, breasts? I pretty much had body morphic dysphoria over my lack of distinct breasts, and loss of male sexual function was not too high a price for me. On the other hand, I don't have much interest as to what my "primary sexual characteristics" (genitalia) are, so a definition of "physical sex configuration" that is rooted in terms of "primary sexual characteristics" would not include me -- and also would possibly not include no-op transsexuals.

[sandra-leigh]

OED definition: "(suffer from) be affected by or subject to (an illness or ailment)"

It looks to me as if that is the sense you mean, and I think we can go forward with that sense. But to remove the ambiguity of "suffer", I would suggest that we change the phrasing you used, "suffer from a condition caused by", to "affected by a condition in which".

In your "Physiological and Physical Sex Configuration" list, I cannot tell if your intention is to "and" those physical attributes, or to "or" them. If only one of those physical attributes is incongruent with innate female gender, then is the person "male" or "female", or does the entire sentence become not applicable? Likewise, if all except one of the physical attributes is incongruent with innate female gender, what result then? Does it depend on which attribute? For example, is "extra rib" of the same significance to this discussion as "penis" is ? (Though, checking, it turns out that males and females have the same number of ribs (http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio105/ribs.htm).)


Since transsexuality is defined as a "condition where the person experiences it's gender as incongruent with their physical sex and seeks to repair their sex to match their gender"

No fair changing the definition after the fact and then assuming the changed version as if it had always been in effect. Your original proposal said nothing about "and seeks to repair their sex to match their gender".


If you don't seek closest approximation then how can you "change thoroughly" your "sex".

And that sentence changes the definition you gave in the previous sentence! "change thoroughly" is not the same as "repair"! What portion of MTF transsexuals bother to get their chest resculpted or their bones thinned? Is FFS now a de factor requirement for transsexuals who did not happen to grow up with the female range of facial bone proportions?

Harry Benjamin, the person who defined "transsexual", included non-op transsexuals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender):


Transsexual, unlike transgender, originated in medical and psychological communities. It was defined by Harry Benjamin in his seminal book The Transsexual Phenomenon. He defined transsexuality on the "Benjamin Scale", with levels of intensity; "Transsexual (nonsurgical)", "True Transsexual (moderate intensity)", and "True Transsexual (high intensity)". Many transsexuals believe that to be a true transsexual, a person needs to have a desire for surgery. However, it is notable that Benjamin's moderate intensity "true transsexual" needs either estrogen or testosterone as a "substitute for or preliminary to operation." There are also people who have had sexual reassignment surgery (SRS), but do not meet the definition of a transsexual, while other people do not desire SRS, yet clearly meet Benjamin Scale definition of a "true transsexual", such as Miriam Rivera.

With regards to meanings by common usage: "transition" meaning "change completely" is not common usage. Look for example at Oxford English Dictionary (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/transition?q=transition); the only verb form definition there is "undergo or cause to undergo a process or period of transition" and transition as a noun is defined as "the process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another". Notice no "change completely" there. The Compact Edition Of The Oxford English Dictionary defines "A passing or passage from one condition, action, or (rarely) place to another; change".

Thus, for example, if you are engaged in melting a candle, the candle is transitioning from one state to another -- and that is the case whether or not you melt all of it.

Appeals to "common usage" require that one define common usage amongst whom, and require that one explain how you know that the usage is indeed the common one without consulting a reference source (in which case one is now discussing reference meanings rather than "common usage") ?

My earlier response to you was merely an editorial one, that as some people might understand some of the words differently, let us discuss and be sure of the shades of meaning before we get too far. I was not confusing anything, merely seeking to be sure that everyone was arriving at the same understanding.

Now, however, you have changed your original words sufficiently to define "transsexual" one rigid way by fiat. It could be that "most of the persons that frequent this forum for the purpose of obtaining information and support" fit your proposed characterization, but that is a point we are unable to prove one way or another as 'most' of the visitors never register or post; see the forum stats for evidence of that. If we restrict our view to the people who register and post or PM us, then as best I have been able to determine, there appear to be more "middle road" people here than people who have definite plans for (or have finished) SRS. And recall that you having defined away people who devotedly wish for SRS but don't go through with it being as "gender variant" and not "transsexual". I would have little difficulty, however, with the possibility that "most of" the more vocal people who post in this section are "transsexual" under your proposed definition.

I am certainly prepared for the possibility that I might turn out not to be "transsexual" under any "common usage" or modern clinical definition. I haven't claimed to be "transsexual", but I am open to the possibility that I might consider myself to be transsexual. I do, however, firmly believe that "transsexual" needs to include some people who do not wish for SRS, and needs to include some people who wish for SRS but find it to be not something they can undertake in their circumstances.

It has been written here by more than one person, that one should not get SRS unless one cannot survive without it. If a person finds that they can, through struggle, manage to live "yet one more day" indefinitely without SRS, then I don't think it is our place to define that person as being non-transsexual.

[Sandra]

...and seeing as this has gone way of what the opening post was, the thread is now closed.