Does your gender change after your transition physically?

[Kate T]

Please, if I offend anyone or just have no idea then I apologise but I have a question that the answer seems obvious but I don't know if it is.

Principally for those who have undergone or are a significant way along their transition and at least have had some change to their physiology or anatomy to alter their sex. I also make the assumption that we are treating Gender and Physical Sex (i.e. anatomy and physiology) as independant characteristics of an individual.

Do you feel more feminine or that your gender is more female now that your physiology / anatomy has been rectified to be more female? What I am getting at I guess is do you think that altering your physiology or anatomy has had any effect on your perception of your gender?

[noeleena]

Hi,

Never haveing transioned i would have to say im the same now as iv been for 65 years, allso being intersexed should have in many ways made me or put me in a i like both male & female. & then the can of worms would have opened.

Being femininein im not not in that leage, well i dont think i am,

Yes im a female / woman, has my gender changed ill say im a non sexual though fall under female not discounting some of my maleness,

Haveing surgery's , has that changed how i think or how i see men or women . no. meds the same. no.

Because of my difference i never saw male & female as different to me they were the same or so i thought, i thought they = every one was like myself normal.......a ooops, later on in life i found out ... oh dear ....i was the one that was different,

...noeleena..

[Kristy_K]

Do you feel more feminine or that your gender is more female now that your physiology / anatomy has been rectified to be more female? What I am getting at I guess is do you think that altering your physiology or anatomy has had any effect on your perception of your gender?

When I first transition looks didn't matter that much to me. But what woman doesn't want to look prettier. Now that I have had couple of surgery's I will have to say it has boost my confidences in being me right up there. I guess I would have to say they made me feel a little more female because of getting my body in line with who I was.

I just reach 1 yr. into my transition. I have learn that being female isn't about how you really look but does help.

[abigailf]

I am a pre-op trans-woman. I still will not use any locker room at the gym because I am so self conscious of the fact that I am a woman with a penis. It makes me very uncomfortable. It complicates situations like dating, going to a new doctor or any place where my nakedness is expected to be different than it is.

So:

Does having a penis make me less of a woman? Not at all, but having a vagina will allow me to feel more comfortable with myself.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I had SRS and FFS a couple years ago..and don't forget HRT...thats a physical thing, you are changing your body to be more chemically female...

More than anything, its what i got rid of that resonates with me. The crazy internal dialogue that haunted me more and more is totally and completely gone... the non-stop wishing, wondering and internal whining about why I couldn't be a "girl" was over, and in all honesty, i feel that "I'm just here" or "im just me"...

I recall talking to my sister about this prior to transitoning, and she was very upset...one thing she said was the she didn't have any idea about how anyone could have some kind of internal sense of sex or gender...kind of like a popeye i am what i am type of statement...the idea of what is your perception of your own gender is murky..

I don't feel much more female or much more feminine.. my friends have told me they are amazed at how instantly i "acted more like a woman", and to me i have no idea what they are looking at.. (perhaps staring at a male my whole life makes it impossible for me to see it??)...

so i guess what i'm saying is that overwhelming feeling i have is that I am whole and that i am myself...Putting in terms of the concepts of female or feminine don't do it justice for me....in fact, as i write this and reread the whole idea of what i went through seems distant and almost imaginary..it doesn't compute that i went through all that because i feel so normal

[Frances]

Transition is about making visible to the outer world what is inside us. In other words, acquiring a body that communicates our actual gender so that the world communicates back the right way. Our gender is already there, it's the sex that gets changed.

Being post-op, I get asked a lot how I felt after surgery, if I felt different, if I had some spiritual awakening or something along those lines. I did not feel any different, and did not expect to feel any different. The biggest mistake that someone could in life would be to expect that transition would somehow make them feel like a woman. I feel more feminine, prettier, but my core is the same.

Someone bought their letters and got surgery at Dr. B a short while before me and thought that their gender would change. This person (I am avoiding gendered pronouns on purpose) thought that they would feel like a woman if they acquired a vagina. Upon waking up, the realization that the core had not changed and that the core was man while having had SRS was too much to bear. He attacked the nursing staff with scissors and had to be brought to a psychiatric facility.

There is a lot of talk on this forum about how to figure out if one is trans or not. Usually it centers around interests and stereotypical traits. Women know they are women at their core. It is essential, and has nothing to do with make-up and dresses.

Your gender will not change with transition.

[ReneeT]

I had SRS and FFS a couple years ago..and don't forget HRT...thats a physical thing, you are changing your body to be more chemically female...

More than anything, its what i got rid of that resonates with me. The crazy internal dialogue that haunted me more and more is totally and completely gone... the non-stop wishing, wondering and internal whining about why I couldn't be a "girl" was over, and in all honesty, i feel that "I'm just here" or "im just me"...

I recall talking to my sister about this prior to transitoning, and she was very upset...one thing she said was the she didn't have any idea about how anyone could have some kind of internal sense of sex or gender...kind of like a popeye i am what i am type of statement...the idea of what is your perception of your own gender is murky..

I don't feel much more female or much more feminine.. my friends have told me they are amazed at how instantly i "acted more like a woman", and to me i have no idea what they are looking at.. (perhaps staring at a male my whole life makes it impossible for me to see it??)...

so i guess what i'm saying is that overwhelming feeling i have is that I am whole and that i am myself...Putting in terms of the concepts of female or feminine don't do it justice for me....in fact, as i write this and reread the whole idea of what i went through seems distant and almost imaginary..it doesn't compute that i went through all that because i feel so normal

This accurately sums up my experience. While I have not yet completed transition, i am far enough into the tunnel to see the light ( train?) at the other end. I have never felt male or female or like a boy or girl. I have always felt like me, and i expect that i will go on feeling that way. What is different about me than other genetic males is that how I am most comfortable interfacing with the world is stereotypically more female. So, for me, transition is really a social thing, a means to facilitate the world interacting with me, in the rigid gender binary society that we live in, the way that I feel most comfortable interacting with it. I dont hate my penis, or other male attributes; they just stand between me and harmony with the world. I am certainly longing for the day when the constant gender conversation in my head goes away. At least it has subsided from an argument to an encouraging discussion....

[Inna]

I believe what you seek is the assurance of a positive congruity between body and mind which is achieved through transition.

GID or GD, Gender Dysphoria where body is perceived as a wrong aspect of already birth imprinted brain gender, refers to that state which you seem to describe.

So do I feel any more female then I did before the commitment to transition? YES I DO!!!

However superficial it sounds and perhaps it is, as already mentioned above, I set out to let the world know who I really was. When interacting with environment we constantly being bombarded with connotations of who we are, within the simplest relationships we are being approached based on visual clues first and interacted with according to those clues. A perceived male will be approached differently then perceived female, and so I feel that my transformation wasn't only for my self mirrors reflection but in fact in a very large measure, it was my reflection in the eye of societies gaze.

Now when ever and where ever, I am perceived without question as a natal, genetic woman, and that is exactly what I was after, I feel and breath as a woman, where before I always had a feeling and stigma of a freak, outcast, abnormality!

So, My GENDER did NOT change, but the overwhelming feeling of womanhood definitely have risen to a new HIGH!!!!

[STACY B]

Sure Lady's all of you that have replied !! That's EASY for you LADY'S to say ,,,Your BEAUTIFUL ,,,,

[ReineD]

Transition is about making visible to the outer world what is inside us. In other words, acquiring a body that communicates our actual gender so that the world communicates back the right way. Our gender is already there, it's the sex that gets changed.

Being post-op, I get asked a lot how I felt after surgery, if I felt different, if I had some spiritual awakening or something along those lines. I did not feel any different, and did not expect to feel any different. The biggest mistake that someone could in life would be to expect that transition would somehow make them feel like a woman. I feel more feminine, prettier, but my core is the same.

Someone bought their letters and got surgery at Dr. B a short while before me and thought that their gender would change. This person (I am avoiding gendered pronouns on purpose) thought that they would feel like a woman if they acquired a vagina. Upon waking up, the realization that the core had not changed and that the core was man while having had SRS was too much to bear. He attacked the nursing staff with scissors and had to be brought to a psychiatric facility.

There is a lot of talk on this forum about how to figure out if one is trans or not. Usually it centers around interests and stereotypical traits. Women know they are women at their core. It is essential, and has nothing to do with make-up and dresses.

Your gender will not change with transition.

This needs to be emblazoned in bright lights.

I also know someone who felt that transition would change them. It didn't go well.

[Kathryn Martin]

I she didn't have any idea about how anyone could have some kind of internal sense of sex or gender...kind of like a popeye i am what i am type of statement...the idea of what is your perception of your own gender is murky..

This is such an interesting comment. It reminds me of the poem by Christian Morgenstern entitled The Impossible Fact.


Palmstroem, old, an aimless rover,
walking in the wrong direction
at a busy intersection
is run over.
“How,” he says, his life restoring
and with pluck his death ignoring,
“can an accident like this
ever happen? What’s amiss?
“Did the state administration
fail in motor transportation?
Did police ignore the need
for reducing driving speed?
“Isn’t there a prohibition,
barring motorized transmission
of the living to the dead?
Was the driver right who speed … ?”
Tightly swathed in dampened tissues
he explores the legal issues,
and it soon is clear as air:
Cars were not permitted there!
And he comes to the conclusion:
That his mishap was illusion,
for, he reasons pointedly,
that which must not, can not be.


It seems your sister had a Palmstroem moment there, which is completely reflective of societies general approach to us.


I experienced and continue to experience very similar things. Today I realized that I could not visualize anymore what I looked like three years ago. My internal self image is, for the first time congruent as well. And all of the dismay and despair through the years has faded away.

[EnglishRose]

Yup that's really quite scary. I didn't even contemplate transition until I already knew I was female.

[Badtranny]

Your gender will not change with transition.

Wow that was chilling, ...but not surprising.

I see similar attitudes on this very site quite often. In fact there is a banned member who always kinda made me think that she regretted the glorious vagina, and I also wonder about those that are always banging the "I am a woman!" drum. I personally regret some of the ridiculous arguments I was pulled into (if not volunteered) about the value of various surgeries and whose feminine identity was strongest. I have never believed that the final cut was necessary or instrumental in a gender change from an outside perspective. Obviously it's extremely important to those that need it but that's not what this discussion is about is it. The question at hand, is will you indeed FEEL like a woman after transition? I believe the short answer (like I've ever had one) is "no".

I said before that I have no idea if I feel or have every felt like a woman. I may feel like a monkey as far as I know. One thing I can be sure of is that I have never felt masculine or "like a man". Or at least what I think men must feel like, and again we are brought to the real puzzle. What do men feel like? How do I know I don't feel like a man? I wrote once that if I could have had the courage to stop hiding when I was very young, and I mean like Kindergarten, then I don't know for sure that I would have ever transitioned. Maybe I still would have, but maybe I would have found a place that was comfortable being whatever I would have been. As it is now, I've been socialized to the point that I don't know any other way to interact with the world around me, than as a woman. Frances nailed it with the following;


Transition is about making visible to the outer world what is inside us. In other words, acquiring a body that communicates our actual gender so that the world communicates back the right way

People do not transition for anything else other than this. At the age of 40ish I had grown so weary of being misunderstood by women that I literally couldn't take it anymore. I tried being openly gay but that was almost ridiculous at times, because I found myself "acting" like a flamer so that women would know right off the bat that I was "one of them". I know it sounds silly, but those are the kinds of things that happen when you are "acting" instead of being. After awhile I was forced to come to grips with what my 9 year old self tried to bury forever. Reading sites like this was even more confusing at the time because I didn't CD and I didn't hate my pickle, so maybe, just maybe there was something else.


Transition is about making visible to the outer world what is inside us. In other words, acquiring a body that communicates our actual gender so that the world communicates back the right way

There was nothing else. This is the truth about transition. It is NOT about surgeries or clothes or makeup. Strip all of that away, strip away your life, strip away your body, and now ask yourself who you are. You are nothing but an essence. Who are you?

[KellyJameson]

This is an amazing thread, it flows like pure poetry or a ballet in perfect harmony.
I wish it could become a sticky so it does not disappear into oblivion.

For me the experience is a coalescing, a bringing together of scattered pieces of myself into one complete whole so changing the physical self is making what was already there more so, it heightens the experience of being me and I have noticed a much stronger awareness of everything, leaving me with a very powerful sense of being connected to everything.

You discover the person that was already there but was hidden in the shadows because you could not experience the physical manifestation of that person

We need our bodies to live through so we can experience our "self" and this "self" is immersed into the experience of reality called life which acts on you much like being carried by a strong current down a river but "you" the "current", and the "river" are one and the same. Life is movement and through movement we have experience and in this "experiencing" relationship we are transformed so become the unexpressed potential that was locked inside us waiting to be born.

Every person is a seed and from this seed everything springs forth, the seed already holds that which is inside it and everything else is the soil so the seed and the soil dance together each affecting the other that through the randomness of life becomes a life lived.

Life is a holistic experience and it is only an illusion that we are separate but gender dysphoria is that illusion turned into reality, you become a permanent outsider to yourself and without a self cannot experience reality so stay partially stunted until the dysphoria is resolved.

You change by being released from that which was preventing change to become what you already are.

Life is a metamorphosis that gender dysphoria stops so we create one metamorphosis to continue the one we were destined for at birth.

[Kathryn Martin]

There is so much truth packed into the few sentences of your comment it makes the head spin. you have in these few words expressed the essence of transition for true transsexuals.


Transition is about making visible to the outer world what is inside us. In other words, acquiring a body that communicates our actual gender so that the world communicates back the right way. Our gender is already there, it's the sex that gets changed.

The dissociation of being of a gender and the world communicating back your birth sex is so fundamental it amounts to a sense of being invisible and never to be touched. It is the loneliest place imaginable.


Being post-op, I get asked a lot how I felt after surgery, if I felt different, if I had some spiritual awakening or something along those lines. I did not feel any different, and did not expect to feel any different. The biggest mistake that someone could in life would be to expect that transition would somehow make them feel like a woman. I feel more feminine, prettier, but my core is the same.

Our spiritual awakening is the same as any other woman. We grow up to be women but experience as if our self is an unheard caller into the wilderness. Now, after the process is complete, the world communicates with us for the first time and we become visible and touchable. This existential loneliness is no more.



There is a lot of talk on this forum about how to figure out if one is trans or not. Usually it centers around interests and stereotypical traits. Women know they are women at their core. It is essential, and has nothing to do with make-up and dresses.

If your inner experience is not that of a woman and your dysphoria is rooted in what gender you are rather than what sex you are the likelihood that you are transsexual is not very high. Attraction to "shiny things" such as clothes, makeup, extended pinky fingers and playing with dolls does not mean you are a girl, a woman.


Your gender will not change with transition.

[Kate T]

Thankyou everyone for your replies and thoughts.

I think I understand. IF I do then my next should also have an obvious answer (I think!). Does that mean that you never felt "male" before starting your transition?

[Frances]

Thankyou everyone for your replies and thoughts.

I think I understand. IF I do then my next should also have an obvious answer (I think!). Does that mean that you never felt "male" before starting your transition?

Not quite, we felt like women.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

This is one of those threads i thought about alot (which tends to get me into trouble!!)

To Frances and Kathryn's points..

A key point to me is that putting the concept of "we felt like women" into words is darn near impossible to verbalize(even in your inner dialogue).. cisgender people simply take it for granted...the same way they take for granted that they like cake vs pie..and they don't sit there and say my boobs or my penis make me feel like a woman or man...even tho they clearly do!...when they say words like "feel like a woman", it really can mean anything..it just doesn't matter that much...just like it really doesn't matter that much if you like cake or pie..

However, that does not mean that it isn't a central part of being human... in fact, i think we are empirical evidence that its possibly the central part of being human, at minimum we exist to procreate, and there is only one way i know to do that!! LOL

Their internal knowledge of their own gender is part of what makes them feel like a person and is something that filters human experience..(this is how i read kathyrn's point earlier when she said...."The dissociation of being of a gender and the world communicating back your birth sex is so fundamental it amounts to a sense of being invisible and never to be touched. It is the loneliest place imaginable. )...perfect... call me a whiner, but that's what it feels like

The most manly woman on earth is still unequivically a woman...she may get teased, mocked or even mistaken for a man....but no one actually would ever ever consider her to be a man..and she has no inner sense of herself as a man, and she doesn't have to look at her vagina to know this..she "just knows"...she knows the same way many of us ts women know.. after years and years "we just know"

[melissaK]

I don't know that I really qualify to talk on this thread. But, I will anyway. With the disclaimer I'm not close to fully transitioned in the common sense. I'm a few years down the HRT road, with no other transition plans in play. Its been a huge task for me to get to here from where I was. And I know my journey is not done.

But that journey has had certain definitive moments, moments that have never been repressed despite the mental fog of dissociation that has so marked my life. I have at times been incapable of speaking of these moments, but they have always been there: being age 4 (or 5) and playing with the neighbor girl as a peer, trying on her Mom's makeup, and knowing I was pretty; being age 8 (third grade) and having the teachers physically bar me from my girlfriends on the hopscotch court (worst f'ing day of my life - dissociation became chronic ever since); being age 9 and being again barred from my girlfriends; being age 13 seeing Christine Jorgenson's book on a paperback carousel and just knowing that that was me; and being age 23 getting hugged by a lesbian woman and knowing that was the relationship I wanted.

So, on HRT I have grown breasts. And it is the first time any part about me other than my eyes, and sometimes in my younger days my hair, have ever been right.

So, no HRT hasn't made me feel more feminine in the least. It's ended a lifetime of pain and has played a huge role in being to unravel and reassemble my dissociative self.

[Marleena]

I don't know that I really qualify to talk on this thread. But, I will anyway. With the disclaimer I'm not close to fully transitioned in the common sense. I'm a few years down the HRT road, with no other transition plans in play. Its been a huge task for me to get to here from where I was. And I know my journey is not done.



My story is very similar to Melissa's except I'm only 6 months on hormones.

I knew I was different at about age 5. My first day in Kindergarten I cried all day because I felt like an alien that was dropped into a room full of humans. The feeling of being on the outside looking in continued until my twenties until I finally realized what was wrong. I started to take my GF's birth control pills hoping they'd change me into a girl. In those days there didn't seem to be any help for me and I gave up on the idea. I then went on to do do the guy thing until age 58 when the desire to transition hit hard again. I had blocked all of the earlier memories but when I finally accepted I was TG all the memories came back along with a second bout of GID. I finally feel "right" and all the anger and depression are gone and I'm finally happy. I'm not sure how far I need to go with this yet.

[Pamela Kay]

I may not qualify for this post either but I will give it a shot. I just wish I could put my feelings into words as well as has been done here. I agree this would be a great sticky.

I agree with most of the posts so far in the fact that I don't know that I will ever know what it feels like to be a woman but I never really knew what it felt like to be a man either. I have been all my life trying to figure out how to be a man and never could get it right. I always knew something was different about me but I never could put my finger on it and then later in life tried to fill the void by working harder at being a guy and doing what my family and friends told me defined a good man. As others have said I never quite fit in with the guys no matter how hard I tried. I did try some of my mom's clothes on from time to time but it had been drilled into me so hard what a man does and doesn't do that I always felt ashamed and would not to it again for long periods of time. It was defined to me in such black and white terms what a man and a woman was that I never really considered there could be other possibilities.

So for 47 plus years I suppressed it until I was about to go crazy (literally) and finally allowed myself to believe what I knew to be true. I went to a gender therapist hoping it was all a mistake and she could fix me but that was not the case and she only helped me verify my own self discovery.

I do identify more as a woman but it's not about the clothes, makeup, or any of the other things. I have had to dress like a guy and fight the voices in my head and the GID as has been already mentioned until I started hormones and could reach the point where I could transition. I have TS friends who feel terrible when they have to present as a man and I can relate to that. I feel that way too but this journey so far has taught me who I am no matter what I'm wearing or what I'm doing. Clothes don't always make the woman. Don't get me wrong, I am much more comfortable presenting as a woman and interacting as a woman but that doesn't mean I'm not me when I have had to dress as a male because I now know who I am inside.

So I will probably never know what it's like to be a man or a woman. All I can do is be the best and happiest me that I can be.

[Kathryn Martin]

This thread has turned out to be an amazing conversation. Thank you Adina for raising it


Does that mean that you never felt "male" before starting your transition?

Between the age of nine when I was told by my mother never to disclose that I knew I was a girl to age 45 one of the most pervasive fears I had was that I did not appear male enough. It was a constant struggle for me to project something at least marginally that would allow me to fly under the radar. My behavior, how I walked and gestured was a constant give away. I had to force myself to sit with my legs open, adopt a staccato speech pattern, take the melody out of my speech. People thought I was an effeminate man. We don't want to be women. We want the world to stop calling us men because our disability belies our self. I never suffered from not knowing who I was, or had doubts about myself. I suffered from a body that made the world disregard who I was.

One of the worst things for me was fighting constantly against my deep need for financial security, emotional security, the deep need for strong partner. I pretended to be strong, risk taking, the silent type and failed miserably. While it was enough for the world to believe I was an effeminate man, the loneliness it occasioned was like an island in an abyss which I could not cross. I walked in this valley of despair for far too long.

Through my transition I have finally found my bridge to cross the abyss and the world started to communicate with me the right way. That is what we mean when we say the pretense falls away. Now I have to unlearn the tight control I kept on my self and I can be who I am unreservedly for the first time. What a shame it took 45 years to accomplish.

[Badtranny]

We don't want to be women. We want the world to stop calling us men because our disability belies our self. I never suffered from not knowing who I was, or had doubts about myself. I suffered from a body that made the world disregard who I was.

Perfect.

Let me also add that we sure as hell didn't want to be Transsexual women. Even when I knew it was possible, I didn't want to be one of "them". All I really wanted was for people to stop expecting me to be a dude. Even at this early stage of my transition (still don't pass 100%) my life is soooo much better because NOBODY treats me like a man anymore.

[KellyJameson]

Ones reaction to being viewed as an effeminate man could be another marker for those trying to understand if they are experiencing gender dysphoria.

I would always be hurt by this label and had a terrible internal fear of believing myself to be a effeminate man because it completely clashed with my own internal sense of being stronger than those using the label against me, a label that was used as an insult to imply a weakness
that I was not experiencing because I was just being me.

The insult attacks you on two levels, one consciously where you understand the danger of appearing weak so it is about social survival and subconsciously where identity lives but it is only understood consciously so you do not see that it is a double insult but consciously focus on being labelled weak.

This creates a trap because you than learn to fear appearing weak and close down the expression of self which is the expression of identity so remove yourself from yourself going deeper into the already existing gender dysphoria that was there from the beginning.

Society makes gender dysphoria much worse by turning you against yourself so you reject out of fear the very thing you need to do to remain who you are making the fracture worse and the path back to truth longer.

You stop living identity so cannot reconcile the dysphoria in relationship to the body and believe it to be something else because that has been what you have been conditioned to believe, you go into disassociation and mental illness.

It is a type of unintentional brainwashing to eliminate the self but only because no one understands that who you are is not who they see.

It makes so much sense now why some go into a display of symbolic hyper-masculinity to prove to themselves and others they are not weak, they are defending their womanhood (self) from attack but this creates a paradoxical experience of thinking you are defending your masculinity until you realize that you were actually defending the self (identity) that is internal and not your social standing among the common tribe of men that you never belonged to, you are an outsider.

You are not fighting for advancement and it is not about ambition, you are fighting for survival.

I really understand now why so many self destruct, the true miracle is that anyone survives it.

[EnglishRose]

I think I understand. IF I do then my next should also have an obvious answer (I think!). Does that mean that you never felt "male" before starting your transition?

For me, it took a long time to come to terms with, but I realized I'd just been accepting the default and I'd never actually "felt male" whatsoever. For what that's worth (and as others have pointed out this kinda thing is so hard to qualify.)

[melissaK]

Perfect. . . .
Even at this early stage of my transition (still don't pass 100%) my life is soooo much better because NOBODY treats me like a man anymore.

I can't recall anyone every expressing that before. We're always so focused on getting treated like a woman, but I can see that in some ways just getting treated like a TS and not like a man is a huge step to being treated as what we are. "Perhaps" my sweet ladies, that is a more true and more authentic life than being perceived as a genetic woman which we are not. Well, I'm not advocating we give up SRS and such, nor am I saying we don't feel deeply that we are girls or women, just thinking we should respect that middle ground more than we do.

[morgan51]

I can claim an even smaller portion of transition than the women who have posted here so far but just saying who and what I really am and being on ht for some time and presenting female 24/7 has let me be treated as" not male" for a significant part of my day to day interaction with society and that has made all the difference. I am looking foward to making the shell match the brain every little step seems to releive a small portion of the g.i.d.

[Frances]

I can't recall anyone every expressing that before. We're always so focused on getting treated like a woman, but I can see that in some ways just getting treated like a TS and not like a man is a huge step to being treated as what we are. "Perhaps" my sweet ladies, that is a more true and more authentic life than being perceived as a genetic woman which we are not. Well, I'm not advocating we give up SRS and such, nor am I saying we don't feel deeply that we are girls or women, just thinking we should respect that middle ground more than we do.

You are infering something that Badtranny might not have meant. I don't think our society is accepting of third and fourth genders. For most people, there are only two categories: males and females. Someone perceived as a trans woman is perceived as a man. You are right though in saying that being accepted solely as trans would be a more authentic life, but that is fantasy. In my country, changing identificaiton without SRS is not possible. That means perpetual discrimation everytime id is shown, and when that happens, male pronouns get used, not special ones for in-betweeners. It would be great if trans people only had to pass as trans people, and I have expressed that desire many times in the past, but as I progressed through my transition, I came to the conclusion that it is not close to happening. Maybe one day.

[LeaP]

Principally for those who have undergone or are a significant way along their transition and at least have had some change to their physiology or anatomy to alter their sex. ...


... I said before that I have no idea if I feel or have every felt like a woman.

... You are nothing but an essence. Who are you?



The dissociation of being of a gender and the world communicating back your birth sex is so fundamental it amounts to a sense of being invisible and never to be touched. It is the loneliest place imaginable. ...

If your inner experience is not that of a woman and your dysphoria is rooted in what gender you are rather than what sex you are the likelihood that you are transsexual is not very high. ...


... One of the worst things for me was fighting constantly against my deep need for financial security, emotional security, the deep need for strong partner. I pretended to be strong, risk taking, the silent type and failed miserably. ...

As stated by a few others in this thread, I barely qualify to participate. I can't speak to the question of what happens after transition. I can to my experiences and feelings before that point, and early into HRT.

Melissa's question about essence is an important one. My answer throughout my life has been that I am a non-entity, no essence, an empty space between generations. I've also been adamant that I am not male. Yet until a year ago I had never experienced a sense of gender - any gender - and then it came unexpectedly. I knew the self-sense as female, though I have no idea how that could be. As it has returned again and again, I now mostly perceive this simply as feeling like "myself."

Leading up to this was a long period of gender struggle. It wasn't until I was almost completely through that struggle that I finally perceived the problem as sex and not gender. That's because for me the fight was against the emergence of gender. Why? I think that it is because, similar to Kathryn, I have had a very deep-seated fear over being able to support myself and live independently. Psychologically, I could not permit myself to see myself as I am, or to change, because to do so was to threaten my safety and existence.

My relationships with partners over the years have been characterized by passive aggressive behavior in private and complete retreat in public, where my partner was everything and I was barely present. Living in the working world has been all about survival. And I have avoided any social life like the plague.

It is indeed a lonely and untouched way to live. For years I tried to make a virtue of it. All the while becoming more severely depressed.

My experiences to date on HRT are encouraging. Some of the most vivid are the simplest. A woman recently walked into my office to see me about something and greeted me. I looked up and said (in an unguarded moment) "Hi!", in female-typical, pitch-variant way. And she just lit up and smiled, and we had the loveliest conversation. Connection. A similar incident passing another woman in a hallway stopped her cold. She stopped walking, looked at me with her head slightly cocked, paused, and greeted me back with a penetrating look and sort of a puzzled smile. Again, a nice conversation. Experiences like this consistently remind me of how I felt in childhood. I'm starting to let go of control because I can for the first time. (And to be honest, I still find it frightening.)

Meanwhile, my body does nothing but distress me more and more. To my relief, body hair is starting to diminish already. Coupled with epilating, it's a relief. I cannot say that it makes me feel feminine, because I still see nothing but a male body. But it is better. I've lost a lot of weight, and I feel more delicate (for lack of a better word) and graceful. Again, simple things ... I can cross my legs, which I couldn't do for decades, and such things do help evoke and sustain my sense of gender as I shed the grossness of the male body, as do the psychological and social changes in the examples above.

[Aprilrain]

What I am getting at I guess is do you think that altering your physiology or anatomy has had any effect on your perception of your gender?

In short, no. If anything I "felt" more "feminine" when I was CDing occasionally. I think the reason for that is because I was trying so hard to put up a male front that when the facade would crack, my femaleness would come rushing in and I would feel the difference between the man I was trying to be and the woman that I am. If there is a stereotypical woman, I'm probably not her, if anything when it comes to interests and aptitudes I'm pretty androgonous.
It's always been about having a female body for me, which is why CDing was so dissapointing. I'd feel as if I should have a female body but all I'd see in the mirror was a dude in a dress. That was seriously depressing. FFS has helped a lot, not only with getting the outside world to see ME but for making real what I felt inside. Not a day goes by that I don't look in the mirror and smile just a little. I dont know, its hard to describe other than to say now I look like how I should look. There is more to be done though, don't give me a full length mirror:sad: because its the same deal with the rest of my body! UGH! How frustrating! And then there is the constant nagging knowledge that everything about transition is a compromise, a best approximation.

[Inna]

I must insert personal note on the subject of "being perceived as"!

At least to me, being perceived as TRANS was worst then being perceived as man, Trans meant that I was inflicted, in the perception of societies view, with disease, a sexual deviant, dangerous or whimsically farce and twisted condition. Never mind the ancient civilizations with their deep understanding of who we truly are gifted with, No, I live here and now and so I interact and absorb direct influence of judgement.

And on the other hand, TRANSness is a label and a descriptive often, if not entirely used in negative connotation.

When I was born, as a little child unaware of my sexuality, I dreamed of being a princess girl, NOT A Transprincess, NOT A Transgirl, but a girl, simple, real, pretty of course, but a GIRL nevertheless!!!

The strives of FFS, SRS, body and poise of a woman, isnt being seek to achieve transness, but to overcome it!!!!

[Jennifer Marie P.]

I always felt like a woman and when I started transitioning my ego was greater and when I got my sex change I felt more like a woman.

[Krististeph]

There are a spectrum of correct answers. The key to why this is, is that 'gender' itself is not a simple binary thing, despite what some homophobic fundamentalists would have you believe. There are no simple answers that cover all people, so you have to actually (perish the thought!) think about it.

Hormones will affect your brain, perhaps bringing out more traditionally associates females characteristics- nurturing etc., but you have heard plenty of stories of bad mothers who do not nurture. everybody's hormonal reactions are different, add to that the cognitive perception of gender-related issues- and you get a pretty good distribution of effects.

from what my therapist has seen (he's not TG specific) he thinks there is a good 90-95% correlation with increasing femininity in mindset with female hormones. The simple plumbing change operation is rarely does without hormone therapy support, so the question is without much data, but anecdotally there are cases where some SC operations were done where the subject had serious regret afterward and suicided- he thinks this was due to poor cognitive assessment and support prior to the final operation, and that poor support could have easily been associated with poor hormonal protocol support/assessment.

That's his 2 cents, and i guess mine too... good potential mechanism, but a dearth of data.

Di we ever consider, that we as CDs ot TSs who start a hormone regimine, or go through with the complete transition, that we are doing kind of an experiment on ourselves? It's kind of amusing sometimes, the little introspections we have. I think that is part of it too-

I self-regulated some hormones about 10-15 years ago, and developed a little bit of secondary female body characteristics (probably including this freaking inch of tummy fat i cannot seem to get rid of...) but i was going through a lot of other things CD related, so i can't tell if some of my feminine feelings or perceptions were due to the hormones.

in closing, I guess i would say my best guess is a synergy of the hormones, the brain gender you are born with, and your cognitive outlook on things, all with how you are dressing and consciously comporting yourself. The brain is certainly plastic enough to adapt to a more traditionally female outlook, especially if the person wishes to do so.

Kristi

[Badtranny]

You are infering something that Badtranny might not have meant.

Yeah I think that sentiment may have grown legs. I wasn't thinking about the 3rd gender, I was just clarifying that even though I still don't pass 100% as a woman, I NEVER get treated like a man. I will pass completely one day as it is my goal and I'm working hard at it but in the interim being regarded as a feminine entity, is better on all counts than the life I was living before.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

unfortunately as of 2012 , way too many people consider a transsexual woman to be a man..

also, appearance has a big deal to do with it...when i spent time in arizona a couple years ago, i was there to meet some folks and get electroysis as well as meet dr meltzer..

i stayed with 2 ts women there... they were great and let me stay with them for a bit, they didn't even try to appear female most of the time...the reality was they couldn't...they were big bulky people, and did you ever wear a wig in 114 heat?
they couldn't afford electrolysis let alone ffs...

they both got srs however...they had a very similar view that they wished it was different, but they had to get the surgery and they were both glad they did...they both changed their names and legal genders but one of them basically worked as a guy (a plumber)

SRS and hormones was THE way they mitigated their gender dypshoria. The other thing i note is that both of them talked alot about their vaginas and both wanted to show me..that kinda freaked me out, but reading this thread i wonder if that was just trying to get affirmation of their female identity reflected back at them

[ReineD]

they were great and let me stay with them for a bit, they didn't even try to appear female most of the time...the reality was they couldn't...they were big bulky people, and did you ever wear a wig in 114 heat?
they couldn't afford electrolysis let alone ffs...

they both got srs however...they had a very similar view that they wished it was different, but they had to get the surgery and they were both glad they did...they both changed their names and legal genders but one of them basically worked as a guy (a plumber)

Maybe that's another difference between TSs and CDs. The friends you describe are happy because they've aligned their bodies with their genders and nothing else really matters. Whereas a CDer who dresses every day would be mortified to live a life, being taken as just a regular guy?

[Aprilrain]

Maybe that's another difference between TSs and CDs. The friends you describe are happy because they've aligned their bodies with their genders and nothing else really matters. Whereas a CDer who dresses every day would be mortified to live a life, being taken as just a regular guy?

I was and still would be mortified if some one mistook me for a man. My mom, dad and sisters are terrible with using proper pronouns and it drives me nuts! A big part of transition for me was getting the outside world to reflect back my femaleness. I don't think CDers have any femaleness that they want or need reflected back at them. They seem to be mostly interested in the trappings of feminity, being and feeling feminine. This is why most CDers would not be caught dead wearing jeans.

[Stephenie S]

Try to think about and remember that "feminine" is a male construct. Being "feminine" means conforming to what men think a woman should be like. It's "feminine" to wear heels, delicate underwear, hose, tight clothing, makeup, and fancy hairdos. These things are all defined by men.

Being a woman really has little to do with clothing and all of the above outward appearances. Try hard to avoid the trap of thinking that being a woman means being feminine, or that being feminine means being a woman.

S

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Maybe that's another difference between TSs and CDs. The friends you describe are happy because they've aligned their bodies with their genders and nothing else really matters. Whereas a CDer who dresses every day would be mortified to live a life, being taken as just a regular guy?

This is true Reine, but i'd add that it's THE difference... the ts person is a woman...we do all kinds of things to express that as a matter of feeling alive as a person.

..the neccessary condition for the ts is to get rid of the gender dypshoria..the cd needs to express femininity

getting rid of gender dypshoria includes any means neccessary...

Its not fair, but how to get rid of it is highly influenced by our age, physicality and financial means

Those of us that have an opportunity through surgery or luck to be able to blend in pretty much always try to do that....if you can't make it happen, then you take what you can get, whether its srs or just being able to take hormones to try to chemically feel like yourself. I know for a fact that some people are able to use the fact that they will never look feminine as a crutch to put it all out of their minds.. a funny story i recall is that when i woke up from my car accident with hundreds of stitches on my face, including having my nose sewn back together and my eyelid sewn back on, my very FIRST thought when i saw myself was "good...now i can never really look like a woman..whew"....at that time, the seeming impossibility of it all protected me...

for my friend in arizona, her inability to really look female was something that took her almost 60 years to deal with....and even tho the surgery got rid of the gender dysphoria, she still felt a desire to have someone see that she was a woman.

no CD would ever really want to be a woman except in a fantasy scenario, and no cd would make a choice to have srs but live mostly as a man, looking mostly like a man..

[Badtranny]

I don't know Kaitlyn, just because somebody fetishizes the vajeen to the point that they have to have one, yet refuse to do the work of "passing". (no matter the end result) Isn't any different to me than someone who wants to have boobs installed while still living as a man. Life sucks, but I don't feel comfortable distilling my condition down to a single surgery or fashion choices. Wearing an eye patch doesn't make you a pirate and SRS doesn't make you a woman.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i'm not distilling at all, in fact, exactly the opposite...i'm saying that a transsexual does whatever it takes, even if its just one thing or another thing...and that our lot in life often determines our choices to mitigate gender dysphoria.

maybe i didn't explain well, but this person changed her name, changed her gender , took hrt, and had srs, only to find after a number of years that blending in and being treated as female was hopeless...she couldn't stay employed, she had no hair, she had giant hands and broad shoulders and thick neck...her kids refused to call her stephanie etc etc... she realized that her gender dysphoria had been largely beat and so she took practical action to function.. she still liked being called stephanie even tho she basically looked like a guy, everywhere she went...even in makeup, even in obviously women's clothes..

I am suprised by your comment because i understand you as a proponent of we all have different ways to experience our condition, and different ways to feel better

..are you saying that stephanies choice makes her less of a transsexual in your eyes? if you knew her, i bet you would feel pretty awful about saying that she was fetishizing her body and refusing to work to pass... you are kind of making my point because you (and to some extent I) were blessed with less masculine features, as well as the financial means to take meaningful action to outwardly appear female and we both did it.... that's not doing just doing the work, that's luck of the draw...

On rereading, i'm wondering if you are focused on the idea that you thought i implied SRS would make someone a woman, and i never thought that or said that...You are really reading into my comment something that is totally not there..

[LeaP]

..the neccessary condition for the ts is to get rid of the gender dypshoria..the cd needs to express femininity ...

That's an interesting distinction that I've either missed or have not sufficiently appreciated.

[Linda St. John]

WOW ...really good stuff.....Answer to Adina's thought ....since I sort of transitioned (Hrt & Orchidectomy) ,I've basically lived as a 58 year ol' gal in the same place I always lived - people who don't know me think I'm gay - but it's a big city and it;s not a big thing . Anyhow ,I dress like most of the other girls - nothing really frilly- just shorts and a tanktop. I have long hair and minimal make--up- I guess I'm not a CD anymore. I always was female, so NO ....nothing really changed after the transition......You just learn to live like any one else. :drink:
Linda

[kellycan27]

Gender doesn't change, but the world around you, the way you look at it, and how you go about living in it certainly can and does for some. It did for me at least.

[Marleena]

Gender doesn't change, but the world around you, the way you look at it, and how you go about living in it certainly can and does for some. It did for me at least.

That sounds right to me.

I hope this doesn't turn into a you're not TS unless you have SRS or whatever debate. HRT got rid of my GID and I'm not sure how far I can or need to go with this. If I was younger and single I know what the answer would be.

[Badtranny]

.... that's not doing just doing the work, that's luck of the draw...

I wasn't talking about your friend specifically and I probably should have mentioned that. I was just using your description as a chance to make the distinction between heartfelt gender dysphoria and physical fetishes (in this case the vag) which I've come to believe is more common than we would like to admit. I have no reason to believe that your friend is not who you say she is and it is indeed unfortunate that life can be unfair to some of us but that doesn't change the fact that a vagina does not a woman make.

The lovely and talented April puts it quite succinctly when she refers to them as "dudes with pussies", and I believe there is a segment of our community that is literally fixated on the Vag installation to the point that they believe it will make all the difference. ...That finally they will be women. We all know about my genital ambivalence and I only mention because it speaks directly to the topic of the thread.

Your friend is not one of these people or I doubt she would be your friend. ;-)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

no worries

...just wanted to be clear that what i was talking about really didn't have anything to do with the response to my post.

[ReineD]

The lovely and talented April puts it quite succinctly when she refers to them as "dudes with pussies", and I believe there is a segment of our community that is literally fixated on the Vag installation to the point that they believe it will make all the difference. ...That finally they will be women.

I sense the same thing, among the many threads I've read in this forum over the years, even though sitting on one side of a laptop monitor is certainly not an accurate assessment. :p

I'm glad to see it confirmed that some of the members on this side of the forum agree that not everyone who seeks transition is doing so for the relief of gender dysphoria.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i think its MUCH more complicated than that..

we are all just human beings. we succeed and fail based on many factors... i think its wrong to assume that folks are dudes with p's if they are not accepted readily as women and then give up...many of us have the benefit of being taken as women whereever we go..i don't think any of us can speak to what its like to know that you will basically NEVER be taken as a woman whereever you go.....

we can't read people's minds, not everyone can say "F* the world i'm a girl!", when every single solitary time they talk to someone they are viewed as male..when they can't afford electroylsis...

The idea of genital ambivalence doesn't mean any of us are less or more anything...i was ambivalent too...and it made me wonder at times whether i was transsexual....thats why i did ffs first... but i was blessed...i had support, resources, etc...i have small hands and feet, and unmistakebly curvy body for some reason...and i am proud to take advantage of it..i learned to pass and it makes my life alot better

But i would never look at a person as a dude with a pussy for not passing..or for giving up passing...this ignores my own passing "priveledge" and seems very unfair to the other person..
...I can't read minds of people that are living basically as guys in survival mode after getting srs that saved their life....people have to eat

I realize some say without srs you arent a "woman"...to me that bs...i would never say that

... but how is saying that a person who doesn't try to pass but has a vagina is a dude with a pussy different than somebody calling you a dude with a girls face because you have a dick

[elizabethamy]

and, more generally, how many people could there really be who would go through transition, even if not surgically, for any reason other than to stop the gender dysphoria? My wife says, "Do you have any idea how much work it is to be a woman? Why would you want to do that?" The answer, of course, is not a "want."

While "passing" is a huge issue, I find myself completely and continuously lost as to how we aren't more unified in this, more supportive of each other, more recognizing of just how tall of a mountain it is to climb, and how much we are the only ones who understand those in our situation -- therefore, to judge our transitioned/transitioning/dysphoric sisters based on appearance is senseless and destructive to all of us.

In my own case, whether I transition or not, whatever and whoever I eventually become, this past year on this forum has been life-saving, self-affirming, and priceless to me. I hear a lot about the divisions in our ranks and the factions and the hierarchies, but whenever I have personally needed support, motivation, examples, or even goading and scolding, someone (usually multiple someones) has been there for me. On the other hand, I haven't asked for critiques of my photos...

elizabethamy

[Badtranny]

... but how is saying that a person who doesn't try to pass but has a vagina is a dude with a pussy different than somebody calling you a dude with a girls face because you have a dick

My gawd I have such a huge crush on your intellect. I could literally argue with you for days on end because you consistently force my perspective.

In this case though, I'd have to stretch too much for an argument because I basically agree with you. I have no issue with the people you describe. Like you I fully recognize my good fortune in regard to my face and body. It's been a lot of work, but I really have no room to complain when so many sisters have much bigger problems than I can even imagine.

My position is based on the people who are more like Frances described in her post about the SRS patient who kinda went nuts after they removed his nuts. I'm also referring to those on this forum who seem disproportionately fixated on the vajeen and all of it's magical powers. I think there are MtF girls who want the operation for no other reason than to PROVE to the rest of the community that they can also join the ranks of the Mighty Post-Op. Whether or not they ever do it isn't really my point, my point is they WANT it because they believe THAT will make them women and change everything. That's really all I'm talking about.

Of course I could be wrong, Lord knows it's happened. ;-)

[ReineD]

... but how is saying that a person who doesn't try to pass but has a vagina is a dude with a pussy different than somebody calling you a dude with a girls face because you have a dick

Speaking for myself, the "passability" factor doesn't come into it. I imagine there are gorgeous Dudes with Ps who seek to transition for the wrong reasons, just as there are not so gorgeous TSs who have genuine gender dysphoria. It's more a question of making the decision based on fetish as opposed to a real desire to fit into the world as just another woman.

I'm also thinking about people like Frances mentioned, not to mention the sheer fetish factor I perceive (and yes, it is only my perception), in post after post in very long threads on the other side, where the idea of having a V is lauded by people who don't seem to otherwise struggle with a gender identity.

... or the members who sometimes come into this side of the forum with questions about how to feminize "just a little bit".

[LeaP]

... I find myself completely and continuously lost as to how we aren't more unified in this, more supportive of each other ...

... whenever I have personally needed support ... someone (usually multiple someones) has been there for me. ...

Kind of hard to reconcile these two statements.

[elizabethamy]

Kind of hard to reconcile these two statements.

Not if I could say it in a way that makes sense! Which is, I've read thousands of words on here about battles within the TS/TG/CD community(ies?), and yet, without being entirely sure (or stable) about where I am on that spectrum and what I should do, I've never received anything but support and honesty. If people have thought me lesser than them or somehow ridiculous or phony or not truly TS or ...whatever...they have kept it to themselves.

So i'm really arguing that we spend a lot of time worrying about divisions that aren't expressed (at least on here) all that often.

e.

[Aprilrain]

My comment About "dudes with pussies" has nothing to do with girls who don't pass. It was mostly a retort to a certain troll who is no longer with us who was always talking about "chicks with dicks" and how one can not be a real woman until they have had SRS. That being said I do think there are some individuals who have all the surgeries but are still males at heart. If someone can be happy that way more power to them, no skin off my back, but don't sit around spouting off about "chicks with dicks" because someone still has or will always have their penis.

[Saffron]

I cannot believe someone can go through this hell only by fetish.

[Frances]

I cannot believe someone can go through this hell only by fetish.

Neither can I, but BBL (Baily, Blanchard and Lawrence) all do, and they are so-called experts.

[kellycan27]

Seemed like a good idea at the time? lol

[ReineD]

I cannot believe someone can go through this hell only by fetish.

I guess it wouldn't be hell for them ... until they change their minds.

OK this was a tongue-in-cheek comment, but it doesn't sound like they're going through hell when they're fantasizing about whether it would be more fun to have a vagina or boobs, or when they come in here and are convinced they can pick and choose which HRT effects will apply to them and which won't. Or which creams to use. If most of these people will stop short of SRS, it's not unreasonable to believe that some won't, see Frances' story.

... although it's true that we only have meager posts to rely on. So really, any discussion about this is pure conjecture.

[Saffron]

You mean this? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard's_transsexualism_typology

I find it very offensive, homosexual transsexual? To me a TS is a woman, how could you call a woman homosexual if she likes men?

And the other part is even better: "non-homosexual transsexuals", who are "autogynephilic" (sexually attracted to the thought or image of themselves as a woman)

So if I don't like men I'm "autogynephilic"?

This sounds like when homosexuality was treated as a mental illness.

[stefan37]

These are the kind of discussion threads I enjoy because they bring out the many variations in the way we think about ourselves and the journey of others. For myself the introduction of estrogen along with the suppression of testosterone has been of tremendous value to me in alleviating my GID. I think I know where I might want to go but as for now I am just living my life and working through the minefield. I was always ambivalent about my genitals, I dreamed of having a vagina but not consumed by the thought of it or the end of the world if I did not get one. On the other hand I always felt I should have had breasts and the fact I did not caused me some distress. I will say that since being on hormones for about 20 weeks my genitals have shrunk and no longer function like they did, and I have been thinking more of a vagina but again it is not at this time an obsessive thought to get one at any cost. I feel that the more facial hair I can clear and work on my socialization skills will allow me to feel more complete.
At my age I kinda feel I will never completely pass or may not even come close. I only know my circumstances and the financial obligations I have to fulfill before I can think of ffs or srs. Does that make me less a transexual than someone that has the means to go farther, I do not know the answer to that. I can only answer to that which helps me mentally get through this time of life.

[ReineD]

I disagree with the Blanchard (et al) premise, that all non-male attracted TSs are paraphilic and this is their motive for seeking transition. We have members who are transitioned and are attracted to or are in relationships with females. I certainly don't consider these members autogynephilics. But, the condition does exist (take a walk over to the CD side of the forum), it is confirmed regularly by members who identify as CDers. My point earlier was, if you have 100 such members in a room, it is not inconceivable that some will at one point in their lives wish to take it as far as SRS (whether they are attracted to men, women, or both), and if they do, it will be for entirely different reasons than someone who is not autogynephilic.

Saffron, as to homosexual vs. non-homosexual, I agree that Blanchard could have used better terms such as male or female attracted. But, this was written in the 1990s I believe and the focus in such research is not to be politically correct but to use terminology that is clinically correct, so that other clinicians can all have the same understanding of the people and conditions described. And biologically (not psychologically), a non transitioned M2F still has a male body and the accepted term for male on male attraction is "homosexual".

The people who read these papers don't make judgements (I'm assuming) about the patient's internal gender IDs, or at least I don't. And I would cringe if I saw similar terminology used in the mass media.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It would be alot easier if we could all somehow "know" what many people don't know for themselves..

Also, i think there are very very few people that get srs because of a fetish, and what's more, they are not transsexuals!!

... it highlights something that has been discussed and argued over alot, and that's the relationship that the "tg umbrella" has with transsexuals..

[LeaP]

Also, i think there are very very few people that get srs because of a fetish, and what's more, they are not transsexuals!!

... it highlights something that has been discussed and argued over alot, and that's the relationship that the "tg umbrella" has with transsexuals..

Agreed on the first point - one would have to be willing to subvert their entire life to their fetish. There are a lot of fetishists out there, but the number willing to do this is surely low. Fetish behavior is typically compartmented and hidden.

Agreed on the TG point. The gulf between the two translates into absurdity as it pertains to common interests and concerns. One may as well say clowns and women are in a common interest group because they both use makeup. Anyone arguing the commonalities (and there are some) for the purposes of organization, activism, and interaction is going to come across as pretty silly. Come to think of it, the clowns may be interested on that basis!

[Frances]

You mean this? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard's_transsexualism_typology

I find it very offensive, homosexual transsexual? To me a TS is a woman, how could you call a woman homosexual if she likes men?

And the other part is even better: "non-homosexual transsexuals", who are "autogynephilic" (sexually attracted to the thought or image of themselves as a woman)

So if I don't like men I'm "autogynephilic"?

This sounds like when homosexuality was treated as a mental illness.

Being MtF herself, Anne Lawrence is even more dangerous as a champion of this hypothesis. Check out her website and her writings.

http://www.annelawrence.com/resurrected.html

http://www.annelawrence.com/

Julia Serano has a much more healthy conception of the sexual drive for pre-op trans women. You may need to buy her book though to get the full article/chapter.

http://www.juliaserano.com/TSetiology.html

[Alicew]

You mean this? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard's_transsexualism_typology

I find it very offensive, homosexual transsexual? To me a TS is a woman, how could you call a woman homosexual if she likes men?

And the other part is even better: "non-homosexual transsexuals", who are "autogynephilic" (sexually attracted to the thought or image of themselves as a woman)

So if I don't like men I'm "autogynephilic"?

This sounds like when homosexuality was treated as a mental illness.

Hmm so where do asexuals fall on the this TS scale then i wonder,i think im atleast asexual amongst my many issues i dont have a normal desire for women and hae never had any desire to another man and im preety sure i have never knocked one out over the thought of me being a woman.
Yes i have a feeling somewhere inside that i should be a female and that my body parts are just plain wrong, but does this create my asexuality or is it just apart of it.

As i grew up the thought never even crossed my mind to masterbate i think i actually had my first aged 19 watching dr quin medicine woman of all things.So growing up to relieve stress ive used masterbation to relieve stress or to just plain cope with these feelings which i might add makes it worse afterwards feeling shame for needing to do it.

I have to be honest since ive told some people about my feelings and issues i havent had to once the thought never even crossed my mind to need to.

So if my belief is right im transexual ,yet still asexual where does that leave me on the gender scale?You see reading about here the fetishistic card gets thrown up alot and due to me thinking hard about what to do next it makes me wonder if thats all this is a pink fog fetish for wanting to be a women, you see part of my dressing is to make my self feel normal and comfortable with what i am so if i masterbate while clothed due to feeling normal is that a fetish or normal to a Trans person.

[ElleduSud]

Julia Serano has a much more healthy conception of the sexual drive for pre-op trans women. You may need to buy her book though to get the full article/chapter.

http://www.juliaserano.com/TSetiology.html

Whipping Girl is an excellent read for anyone on the transgender spectrum. Can't recommend it highly enough. Much to be learned from Julie Serano.

My interpretations on Lawrence and Blanchard:

I believe Blanchard identified a very real aspect of fetish cross-dressing. I agreed that he misapplied it to transsexuals. I think his research was on track to real knowledge, but his conclusion was premature. I would love to see his work further developed in studies specific to MTF cross-dressers that identify as male.

My interpretation of Lawrence's work is that she was attempting to validate his discovery, for further application in the study of fetishistic transvestism, while acknowledging that there has been some historical confusion between self-identified homosexuality and self-identified transsexualism. The stigma of homosexuality has been so strong for so long that it may have been psychologically easier for some individuals to self-identify as "woman in a man's body", rather than acknowledge genuine homosexual orientation.

[LeaP]

Whipping Girl is an excellent read for anyone on the transgender spectrum. Can't recommend it highly enough. Much to be learned from Julie Serano.
...

... Blanchard ... I think his research was on track to real knowledge, but his conclusion was premature. .

I would not dignify his THOROUGHLY discredited activity by terming it research. Nor his bias by terming it a conclusion.

I agree with your comments on the historical conflation of homosexuality and transsexuality. In reality, it's a view that regarded anything not cissexual or cisgendered as sexual deviation or, using the older term from the 19th century, an "inversion." Blanchard's bias can be seen as a continuation of this into the modern era.

[edit] Forgot to add that I also recommend Julia Serano. She is a groundbreaking thinker.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Here is the simple fact that screws everything up.

It is totally normal for a transsexual woman to grow up getting sexual satisfaction from the "idea" of being female or expressing herself as female. I know i did..Why this is so i have no idea..i was very disturbed by this.. i recall discussing my "secret" in group therapy and i got a huge guffaw as people said "me too"... it is less common to have these "Sexual" feelings around it, and its been said that a "true" trannsexual would never have this feeling......who knows..and who cares!

Enter Blanchard, Lawrence et al...if its about the big O, it must be about sexuality, right?? again...i don't know, but I DONT CARE.. unfortunately the papers are out there, the terms are "defined" and they are causing us issues...and because there are people that fetishize becoming a woman as well, we all get lumped together..

so if you feel there is a sexual component, stop worrying about "what that means" and focus on the basics... how bad is your gender dypshoria? can you honestly cross the bridge and say you are a woman? if you can't say you are, is there something stopping you??

but leave what makes you *** totally and completely out of the equation...it doesn't matter, NO consideration should be given to it as you decide what to do for yourself and for your life...NONE

the part of you that defines your gender identity is all that matters..

[ReineD]

Enter Blanchard, Lawrence et al...if its about the big O, it must be about sexuality, right?? again...i don't know, but I DONT CARE.. unfortunately the papers are out there, the terms are "defined" and they are causing us issues...and because there are people that fetishize becoming a woman as well, we all get lumped together..

Exactly. There's more to it than just having an orgasm. There's a difference between expressing one's innate sexuality with someone, and a preference for sexual gratification that culminates from the fantasy of having certain body parts in themselves, even if a faceless man is used as an accessory in order to make the fantasized body parts seem real.

[Kate T]

This is true Reine, but i'd add that it's THE difference... the ts person is a woman...we do all kinds of things to express that as a matter of feeling alive as a person.

..the neccessary condition for the ts is to get rid of the gender dypshoria..the cd needs to express femininity

getting rid of gender dypshoria includes any means neccessary...



I would like to thank everyone for their contributions. Whilst not participating heavily (not really being invited by my own original question!) I have read and tried to understand as much as I can.

The above from Kaitlyn I must admit I have found to be most helpful / I understand best. Thankyou Kaitlyn.

Can I add one more thing though. There are couched mutterings in this thread and there have been various other threads regarding that can read as fairly disdainful of CD's generally. I understand that the CD with a bit of a fetish and AGP who prattles on about how "wouldn't it be great to be a women / have breasts / have a vagina" is generally pretty annoying and belittles the problems and issues that TS and GG face in everyday life. However some CD's (hopefully myself included) are here to make a genuine attempt to learn and understand. Sometimes we make mistakes and say stupid things but I don't think anyone is immune from that affliction. So please, if I / we / CD's do make mistakes, sometimes gently but pointedly illuminating us is better than ignoring / hoping we will just go away.

Again, thankyou everyone for responding.

[Kathryn Martin]

I believe Blanchard identified a very real aspect of fetish cross-dressing. I agreed that he misapplied it to transsexuals. I think his research was on track to real knowledge, but his conclusion was premature.

Elle, I would disagree. If you read his 1989 paper, he says in the paper that it is simply a hypothesis. The research was so anecdotal and flawed (sample size 368 clinical patients) and his method was so biased in the construction of the questionnaire used (choices were all linked to sexual arousal and no answers permitted outside of an arousal measure {and in most questions there was absence of a "no arousal answer}] that in order to to come to any conclusions he had to assume that survey subjects were lying}) that his conclusions had no value. Fast forward 20 years and his hypothesis has now taken on the color of theory and even fact because the more often you say it the truer it gets.

In any other discipline of science, this would be considered unacceptable. It's quackery.

That a disproportionate number of MtF transsexuals have either a latent attraction to men or are actually bi-sexual in their male sexed bodies is simply a fact. The post op population of MtF transsexuals is sex oriented largely along the same lines as the general population. In the general population there are approximately 7% female attracted women.

There is one interesting aspect about sexuality of the genders, it's different in a qualitative way. This is not a weighing of value but rather an observation. Not much attention is paid to this in therapy and counseling other than attraction factors. If you explore the quality of your own sexuality (and I don't mean the mechanics but the emotional component) then much could be learned about the difference between transsexuality and gender variance and the question why some MtF persons do not seek surgery. For a disproportionate number of gender variant persons the quality of their own sexuality does not need to be changed to be fulfilled. Transsexuals need this change to bring their own mechanics of sexuality (again remember emotional quality) into congruence with who their are because a body that is incapable of expressing that quality will never do. This is one of the reasons in my view why pre-op a disproportionate number of transsexuals are either asexual, or avoid penetrative sex to the largest extent possible. Many find fulfillment of their own emotional sexual quality by bringing pleasure to others and find orgasm a difficult sometimes impossible deviance from their experience of self.

[Saffron]

Well said Kathryn.

There's a lot of info about the subject here:

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/ray-blanchard.html

[ReineD]

Kathryn, what do you make of the hundreds of sex oriented web sites out there for fetish CDers, and the thousands (tens of thousands?) CDers who identify as men but who love to engage in sexual practices where they fantasize they are women? Or they love to strut their stuff as women online and through pics, perhaps engage in webcam chats, and engage in solo sex? Or maybe just the act of putting on clothes is enough to bring them there. You should read some of the threads in the CD section by members who describe sexual experiences while dressed so intense that nothing else compares. And they will be the first to say that it is fetish and nothing but fetish for them. Their motive to dress is indeed fueled by AGP.

I agree with Elle, in that I also think that Blanchard misapplied the concept of AGP to female-attracted TSs. But this does not mean that AGP isn't alive and well among some or many members of the CDing community. These CDers are not TS, nor are they in denial about being TS.

I further believe that AGP might be so strong in some people that they may think they "want to be women" (vs. aligning their bodies to internal gender). We see them come to the TS section occasionally wanting to feminize "just a little bit", wanting to know which of the creams or potions work. Whether they go ahead with living full time or perhaps getting BA is unknown, but there is evidence that the fantasy is powerful enough to make them want to ask questions.

Everyone has a different definition of what being a woman is. For some people, it means having breasts and being beautiful, and pretending they have a vagina.

[Saffron]

But fantasizing about transition and operations it's not the same than doing it.

If is only a fetish what will he do once he gets aroused? It's not reversible, he wouldn't be able to have sex as a man never again.

I suppose there is all kind of people, in fact there's people who does bizarre operations to his body (like the lizard man). But I simply couldn't understand how a person can mutilate his sex, go through a dangerous surgery and pay a high sum only for fetish.

It's a pity I can't sell my gender dysphoria to that guy, so both of us could be happy.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

But fantasizing about transition and operations it's not the same than doing it...................
....................It's a pity I can't sell my gender dysphoria to that guy, so both of us could be happy.

Exactly...great last line .... i would also like my job and family back while we are at it..

Fantasizing about being a woman is totally different than being one....even if you are fantasizing more about actually being female as opposed to presenting as a woman...
"one got nuttin to do with the utter" as my first boss always said..

and because we are on an anonymous message board, this particular part of this forum is a good place to fantasize about being transsexual.. it can be similar to going to a porn website

my bottom line is we make it a much bigger deal here as an intellecual discussion then it is as a practical matter and it highlights why lots of us have issues with being included in a tg umbrella concept...

and whatever is happening with you "down there" has absolutely nothing at all with whether you are transsexual or not. nothing, nada, zilch, nil, zero, zip.....

[Kathryn Martin]

Reine the issue with AGP is that it is not a condition that anyone has. It is a hypothesis, a speculation if you will about an idea that Blanchard has had.

The number of men and women who have cross-sexual fantasies is in the hundred of millions. Most of those dreams (or fantasies) occur in a sexual context. It does not make them CDers, gender variant or transsexual. Then you have people who feel compelled and derive much sexual arousal from crossdressing. It is a fetish, like being submissive or dominant or loving feet and shoes. It is interesting that you mention posting pictures and videos online of yourself in women's clothing or engaging in chat dressed. Is it really a sexual fixation with oneself as a woman or is simply that others get to witness a behavior of this person that is the driving motivation. In this regard I find even the idea of a "mental illness" concept of "being sexually attracted to yourself as a woman (AGP) or man (AAP)" useless.

The interesting thing is however, that if you have intense sexual experiences when dressed, you would remove the arousal factor if you were to dress as a woman full time. It is in the end simply a sexual stimulant.

Having cross-gender experiences is something that seems to be quite different. If you look the gender variant communities including queer, androgyne etc. sexual stimulation maybe a an accompanying factor but is not the source of these feelings. The transformation of the reproductive configuration of the body is not a driving motivator. While secondary sex characteristics may be altered to lend expression to the need not to be fixed into the gender binary to express how the person experiences her/himself there is little or no body dysphoria at play. This is always the case with transsexuals.

I think that the belief that different definitions of “woman according to a person’s individual experience” exist is a fallacy. It is difficult to pretend to have a vagina or a penis when in fact your body belies such a statement. If you go back to the fundamentals, then the generally accepted definition is that if you have a reproductive system that is female you are a woman and if you have one that is male you are a man. This is the basis of the sex binary. We all know that it is not quite as easy as that. Intersexuality and transsexualism show that there are aspects of human existence where the sex binary does not assure a person's gender/sex congruency. In this sense transsexuals must bring this misalignment into the sex/gender binary to be whole.

You have had the fortune of being born physiologically and genetically a woman. Do you feel that having breasts, being beautiful and pretending to have a vagina defines womanhood?

[Saffron]

The interesting thing is however, that if you have intense sexual experiences when dressed, you would remove the arousal factor if you were to dress as a woman full time. It is in the end simply a sexual stimulant.

Yeah, it's like becoming a policeman cause you like to dress as a sexy one when you're having sex.

[Pexetta]

I detect an undercurrent in this thread against the idea of 'transgender' as an inclusive term for cross-dressing, transsexuality and all points between.

[Kathryn Martin]

Transgender is a misnomer for transsexuality. Gender and sex are not the same.


I detect an undercurrent in this thread against the idea of 'transgender' as an inclusive term for cross-dressing, transsexuality and all points between.

[ReineD]

If is only a fetish what will he do once he gets aroused? It's not reversible, he wouldn't be able to have sex as a man never again.

Right. These are the people who fancy themselves as women, who spend their times in TG clubs or whatever, who dress at every opportunity and may well manage near full time, They may want HRT to be more feminine looking, they may even want boobs, but who always seem to stop short of SRS. They do not see their penises as birth defects at all.

I'm not by any means saying that everyone who cannot have SRS is like this. I'm just saying there are people whose definition of being a woman is different than a true TS who has gender dysphoria. There's the person that Frances has alluded to a few times. There's another person, some wealthy individual who transitioned with BA, FFS (don't know if he had SRS), and then changed back. Recently there was someone on a talk show who dresses like a hooker and who said that Propecia made her trans. How many others are there that don't make it into the news? Again, I'm just saying there is an explanation for the slew of people on this site and in other places who are so sexually excited about being women that they think they might be TS (they mistake the highs they experience as "feeling like a woman", as opposed to fundamentally feeling at odds with their male bodies the way that TSs do.

[Saffron]

Don't you hate when people talk about women like a mythical creature?

[Badtranny]

Right. These are the people who fancy themselves as women, who spend their times in TG clubs or whatever, who dress at every opportunity and may well manage near full time, They may want HRT to be more feminine looking, they may even want boobs, but who always seem to stop short of SRS. They do not see their penises as birth defects at all.

I'm not by any means saying that everyone who cannot have SRS is like this. I'm just saying there are people whose definition of being a woman is different than a true TS who has gender dysphoria. There's the person that Frances has alluded to a few times. There's another person, some wealthy individual who transitioned with BA, FFS (don't know if he had SRS), and then changed back. Recently there was someone on a talk show who dresses like a hooker and who said that Propecia made her trans. How many others are there that don't make it into the news? Again, I'm just saying there is an explanation for the slew of people on this site and in other places who are so sexually excited about being women that they think they might be TS (they mistake the highs they experience as "feeling like a woman", as opposed to fundamentally feeling at odds with their male bodies the way that TSs do.

I agree with you 100%

I think another distinction between a TS and the "other" is a marked lack of pretension. TS people don't pretend anything. We don't pretend we are GG's, we don't pretend our bodies are different than what they are, we don't pretend to "be" women. We just are and I would say the drive to transition is actually fueled by the desire to stop pretending.

[Saffron]

We just are and I would say the drive to transition is actually fueled by the desire to stop pretending.

Melissa you almost made me cry with this phrase. You hit the jackpot. I'm so tired of pretending to be a man.

[ReineD]

Reine the issue with AGP is that it is not a condition that anyone has. It is a hypothesis, a speculation if you will about an idea that Blanchard has had.

The number of men and women who have cross-sexual fantasies is in the hundred of millions. Most of those dreams (or fantasies) occur in a sexual context. It does not make them CDers, gender variant or transsexual.

Exactly. If men get off on themselves as women, they are autogynephilic which is an accurate term to describe this. If women get off on themselves as men, they are autoandrophilic. But hundreds of millions? This seems high, unless you are including in these numbers people who simply have fun occasionally in the bedroom switching roles but who do not (like many fetish CDers) take it so far as to develop an opposite sex persona to display to the world in order to heighten sexual intensity.



Then you have people who feel compelled and derive much sexual arousal from crossdressing. It is a fetish, like being submissive or dominant or loving feet and shoes. It is interesting that you mention posting pictures and videos online of yourself in women's clothing or engaging in chat dressed. Is it really a sexual fixation with oneself as a woman or is simply that others get to witness a behavior of this person that is the driving motivation. In this regard I find even the idea of a "mental illness" concept of "being sexually attracted to yourself as a woman (AGP) or man (AAP)" useless.

I don't like calling it a paraphilia either, but then it depends on the degree. I've read blogs from CDers who got themselves into such a sexual tizzy over the dressing that it affected their productivity at work, they've lost jobs, they've lost relationships, just like a sexual addiction. I believe the qualifier for paraphilia is if it causes unmanageability in someone's life, and maybe most people don't let it get that far.

As to posting pics online, there are different motives: for some people it is a sexual fixation, while for others it is a desire for validation for a burgeoning feminine self.



The interesting thing is however, that if you have intense sexual experiences when dressed, you would remove the arousal factor if you were to dress as a woman full time. It is in the end simply a sexual stimulant.

I agree, but do the fetish motivated people ever get to the point of living as women full time.? They may have lost relationships, they may spend a great deal of time outside their work dressed, they may even join forums/web sites and spend time playing around with the idea of being women, or wonder how they can obtain breasts that can be hidden in guy mode.



I think that the belief that different definitions of “woman according to a person’s individual experience” exist is a fallacy.

I had a discussion with a CDer last week. He started out his thread saying how pleased he was that his presentation kept getting better (no more cheap blonde wigs), as he casually alluded to being a woman in a man's body (looking less like a costume as time progressed), accompanied by pics of cute shoes and painted toenails. I pointed out the difference between genuinely being transsexual, and enjoying the feelings associated with a cute and sexy presentation, and that the latter was not "a woman in a man's body". I don't think he had ever put much thought into it before and he did concede that it was just the presentation he was interested in, and he had absolutely no plans on becoming a woman.

His definition of "feeling like a woman" was the thrill he obtained from seeing himself transform into his image of a beautiful woman. He only used this as an expression because he really hadn't put a lot of thought into it, and his motive for the CDing is pure fun, as it is for many of our members.



It is difficult to pretend to have a vagina or a penis when in fact your body belies such a statement.

Kathyn, maybe you cannot see that some people are motivated by this fantasy because you have nothing in your own internal landscape that even comes close. But really, if you take the time to read the threads on the other side, and you do this for years, you will see what I mean. :)

Disclaimer for the non fetish CDers reading this: I am not saying that everyone who identifies as a CDer is fetish, just wanting to explain there are indeed fetish CDers who believe the thrill they get from dressing is how it feels to be a woman.



You have had the fortune of being born physiologically and genetically a woman. Do you feel that having breasts, being beautiful and pretending to have a vagina defines womanhood?

No. And speaking strictly from a GG's perspective, I know that women who cannot bear children, or have had mastectomies, or hysterectomies do not become "less" women. But it is difficult for some women to experience some of these things and I did experience a miscarriage once, in my second trimester. I did feel as if I had failed as a woman. It was short lived and my friends helped me through this, but the feelings I had the day of and the few days following came from very deep within me. I felt a sense of shame for not having been able to carry the birth to term, in addition to having felt a great deal of grief over my lost child.

[Saffron]

Sorry to hear that Reine, I can't tell about losing a child, but felling like you have failed, I can relate. I felt so bad myself for years, like if I was defective, and telling to my mom I feared she could think she failed as a mother.

Luckily everything went good and now I feel so good, so liberated. Like I'm starting a new life.

[Pexetta]

Transgender is a misnomer for transsexuality. Gender and sex are not the same.

Yes, I had a feeling that total disagreement would be the result there.

[Kathryn Martin]

This seems high, unless you are including in these numbers people who simply have fun occasionally in the bedroom switching roles.....

When I talked about the hundreds of millions I meant that likely a vast majority of the population had cross gender fantasies at some point in their life, even if it was fleeting or just once. These no one would call love with a sexual component of oneself as a gender opposite to ones own. For instance all my dreams with sexual content that I remember (three in total) I was a woman except one.



I don't like calling it a paraphilia either, but then it depends on the degree.

Indeed, if you occasionally go outside the box it's one thing but if it becomes obsessive it often crosses the line to the unhealthy.



No. And speaking strictly from a GG's perspective, I know that women who cannot bear children, or have had mastectomies, or hysterectomies do not become "less" women. But it is difficult for some women to experience some of these things and I did experience a miscarriage once, in my second trimester. I did feel as if I had failed as a woman. It was short lived and my friends helped me through this, but the feelings I had the day of and the few days following came from very deep within me. I felt a sense of shame for not having been able to carry the birth to term, in addition to having felt a great deal of grief over my lost child.

I will write to you ......


Yes, I had a feeling that total disagreement would be the result there.

I would invite you to converse with me convince me otherwise but maybe not in the confines of this thread.