How To Be A Man

[LeaP]

From time-to-time, I read comments on the site about self-sacrifice. They often suggest that the right or moral thing to do is to sacrifice your own needs for those of your spouse or family. This usually gets a lively debate. The various subgroups on the site also have their own take on this.

One argument that I have tried to advance, though, is how male the notion of self-sacrifice for one's family is. Please don't misunderstand. Women sacrifice too, and sacrifice heavily for their families. More typically, however, their sacrifice takes the form of dedicating their lives to their families through what they are rather than by serving them by living falsely. Men by contrast are expected to make any sacrifice, including their own obliteration.

Today, I was reading an article, and came across this quote by Cesar Chavez, which just nailed the maleness of the concept.

"It is my deepest belief that only by giving our lives do we find life. I am convinced that the truest act of courage, the strongest act of manliness is to sacrifice ourselves for others in a totally nonviolent struggle for justice. To be a man is to suffer for others. God help us to be men!"

How much of the struggle to be authentic is due to this exaggerated notion of male self-sacrifice?

[melissaK]

Lea sweetie, you're way better than my counselors at making me learn myself.

At first I wanted to answer by saying, yes I knowingly sacrificed myself to provide stability to my family. But God might loose thunderbolts at me for that.

So truth with myself being the purpose of this exercise I have to admit my sacrifices are far less altruistic. My refusal to transition or to follow my heart had more to do with getting what I wanted.

Bottom line is I wanted to win approval from parents, significant others and authority figures in my life. That would translate to love from parents, love from a wife, and money from employers. All of that would lead to happiness for everyone including my family. I would be Ward Cleaver.

All of this is how I'd assess myself in hindsight. As I actually lived my life day to day, decision to decision, I never analyzed my motives that way. I'd rationalize it with thoughts about not being a weird CD let alone TS, that it was a phase, that I could overcome it by force of will. When will power faltered I'd tell myself motivational things like I have to keep doing this to keep my great job so I could keep supporting everyone in my life. So that "sacrifice" idea was late in the game for me.

And it is true, transitioning will likely cost me professional standing and money. But that's an unwritten chapter in my life as of yet.

[wetlook crossdresser]

Sacrifice, give up, conform. All ominous words it seems. We each face this in any relationship but I believe in the importance of each of us finding a balance in personal direction. Prioritize needs but also be sensitive and helpful for the needs of others, especially those who depend on us. Each relationship with another should have this, some sacrifice, and some compromising but I believe one should not lose their personal identity to become a shadow of another's selfish needs. Perhaps as men, we get too worked up about fighting for causes, families, or glory that we lose self balance, fall in the struggle, and succumb to oblivion. I hope we as men can find the courage to follow our convictions and use our intelligence to find harmonious relationships where we can each contribute with love, dignity, and self respect.

[LeaP]

Well, I'm not a man, but the expectations placed on men are the point ... and must be overcome when a gender issue is involved. So much of this struggle is unlearning. But this is the most extreme expectation of all. It's real, it comes from spouses and others, too - those that tell us to our faces it would be better (for them) if we died. Surely this is part of the suicide problem. More subtlely, it puts trans women through hell fighting long past reason.

[Inna]

Interesting thread! As I will think out loud, and hopefully not get beaten down by an angry frustrated mob of self sacrificing males, I will touch on the most of basic instinct. Within the natural order, males are the aggressors, the hunters, where females are docile nurturers and cultivators.
Being calm for males seems only suitable during off time and as soon as the aggressor instinct kicks in they become an adrenaline junkies, just look at some of mans games, OUCH! it hurts to watch, well................except chess, and bowling, and............oh well, I hope you get my point without examples :facepalm:

Being frustrated then doesn't exactly slow one down in fact it may add to the dynamic, however if such person possess female cognitive function it becomes seriously complicated!

On the other hand, such would not be possible for a female as she bases her position within family nearly purely on emotional level, and frustration of living a lie would simply brake the family apart. In a sense TG Male is exactly that, a female trying top fulfill the role of an aggressor, a hunter, and usually withstands only so much until resolve gives in to emotional turmoil.

Gee, I am not sure I understand my self, but for what ever reason I wanted to be a part of this thread...:doh:

[STACY B]

Tell me one thing ? What Job or Duty could a Man have or do that a Woman could not do ,,Or what could a Man do for the Family that a Trans Woman couldn't do ? All the worse jobs on earth an even made TV shows about them I have done them an never asked for Prays ,,Just did them to get by ,, So you meen to tell me a Girl did all those Jobs ? Must have cuz I am that girl ? Tell the Boyz that one !!

[DebbieL]

For me, the pressure to conform to gender norms started when I was about 5 years old. Prior to that, I was just "one of the girls". I had a few male friends, but most boys were far too violent and since I didn't push back or hit back, I usually got hurt. On the other hand, I liked playing with girls, and we played nicely. Everything was cool until one mother came in and saw me wearing her daughter's dress, tights, shoes, and even her underwear. The woman called the PTA, the principal, and the teacher, told them never to let me play with girls at school anymore. I was labeled a "sex offender" at 5 years old.

Playing with the boys was a regular experience in terror. They would call me a sissy, and this would soon be followed by throwing rocks the size of golf balls at my head. On the way home from school, they would often pick up sticks 2-3 inches in diameter, and start beating me with them. I frequently ended up in the hospital, often with asthma so severe that it would take 2 weeks to recover. My parents knew I wanted to be a girl, but didn't want to give me any support. They were afraid my grandfather would send me to a fundamentalist Christian boarding school, where they would FORCE me to be a "man".

When I got to Jr High - 7th, 8th, & 9th, the "sissy" label was replaced with "Fairy", "Queen", "Queer". The violence was worse too. In the worst case, I was dragged across the pavement until my belly, chest, and back looked like hamburger. In high school, the jocks who were gay started coming on to me. I wasn't into boys (more associated with terror than pleasure) but since many gay guys were coming on to me at about the same time, I decided to introduce them to each other in a safe controlled way. But when I tried to dress more feminine, they maintained their distance, leaving me at the mercy of the bullies and straight jocks again. After that I decided that I would never tell anyone about wanting to be a girl.

When I went to college, I chose a girl's college, 800 women and 25 men, and quickly became "one of the girls". This mean I was friends with all of them, but not sexually attractive to any of them. I was even made an honorary member of the Mu Phi Epsilon sorority. In my stage movement class, I wore a leotard over my women's weight tights. I had really nice legs and I looked better and moved better in the lighter fabrics, and I admitted that I enjoyed them. The class gave me a birthday present of some transvestite magazines. I thought they were making fun of me, and there were a couple of "jock boys" who did get violent, but I realize today that they were trying to encourage me to come out, to express my feminine side in other parts of my life. They might have even wanted me to try dressing up. At that point, I was still too scared of persecution to even buy women's underwear. The dance-wear was my only true self-expression, and it showed in my more graceful movements, calmer disposition, and honest self-expression. In that one class, I went from being a clown to being a beautiful and graceful woman - who just didn't have breasts.

I did finally meet a woman who accepted my femininity, but she also knew that I had a very small "stick" and so after we spent an hour or two in what amounted to intense lesbian sex, she would go find some guy who was well hung, and have sex with him. She tried to reciprocate, but when she tried, I would shake and convulse so intensely that she had to stop. I think that my feminine self was so intent on not letting the male side win that she would not allow herself to be sexually satisfied as a man. As a result, I was still a virgin until I was 21.

When I was 21 I met a woman who was thrilled that I was a virgin, and decided to seduce me as romantically as she could. Her room was feminine, complete with pink canopy bed. We made love for hours, but I couldn't have an orgasm. It wasn't until I was tied down that she was finally able to get past the defenses that the girl had been putting up. I think the girl was willing to surrender to the woman who was seducing the girl. The fact that the man had an orgasm was secondary. Unfortunately, the day after I told her that I might want to wear stockings, she dropped me like a hot potato. I was celibate for the two years, and refused to tell ANYONE, even a therapist, about my transgender tendencies. When I went to see Rocky Horror Picture Show, she asked if I liked to dress up, I gave her a question mark look, and she asked if I liked to dress up like frankenfurter. I think I said I'd rather dress like Janet, but I got so freaked - afraid that I would lose my living quarters, get thrown out of the house, and end up homeless - so I kept it quiet. Since I kept women's clothes in my room (by now I was buying them), and she had the key to my room, she probably knew, but each time she tried to bring it up, fear of rejection made be too defensive to even talk about it.

When I was 24, I met the woman who would become my first wife. She loved that I didn't try to have sex with her the first date, and after many dates, we moved in together. Before moving in, I threw out all my girl clothes, but after 3 weeks, I realized that I'd made a mistake, and told her about my desire to dress. I didn't tell her about wanting to be a girl. Again, I stood to lose my living quarters and my possessions. She acted like she accepted it, and even seemed to enjoy it. I had no problems giving her intense sexual pleasure - I'd had plenty of experience giving girls and women orgasms by then. She was hooked, but the prospect of me wanting to be a girl, to go out in public, or anything other than the privacy of our own home, was more than she could handle. Just before the wedding, she pretty much shut down sexually. When she wanted a baby she would have very mechanical sex, but no real passion. Finally, after we had moved to Rochester NY, and she went back to Denver for her friend's wedding as the maid of honor, she came back, had me dress up in a corset, stockings, and heels, tied me to the bed, She was wearing a similar outfit, she picked up the condom off the headboard and threw it in the trash. Then she said "enjoy it, you'll be paying for it for the next 20 years" - She may have known she was at risk of being pregnant already.

Once she was pregnant, I was on the hook for child support at minimum, and she knew it. She would have sex with me, about 3 times a year, so I wouldn't forget what I was missing. She didn't want to do anything to encourage my feminine side, and eventually I just started working later and later, going to AA or NA meetings over the week-end, taking the kids with me, and pretty much avoiding my wife's barbs and cutting remarks. It was her way of castrating me emotionally, and emotionally abusing me. Over the next 8 years, she took full control of my finances, gave me an "allowance" and would respond to any affection with "I hope you don't think we're having sex". I think she wanted me to have an affair - so she could sue me for Alimony and Child support. When it was obvious that I wouldn't cheat - she insisted that we move to Colorado, where she could get a "No Fault" divorce - after finding a new boyfriend and meal ticket to cover the portion of my in come that wouldn't be included in Child support. We tried couple's counseling, then she suggested that I get dressed, she tied me up, ankles to wrists, and then raped me anally with a candle. Once I realized I had no choice, I just surrendered and let myself enjoy it. When I had an orgasm, she was visibly pissed. That night, she had nightmares so intense that she woke me up because she was hitting me with her elbows and fists. I woke her up and she told me she had had a nightmare about the night she had been raped by two men who had kidnapped her and taken her into the mountains. She had these nightmares every time she saw me have an orgasm.

Eventually, we got a divorce, but I had to pay half my after-tax income to her and her boyfriend/husband as child support. She got married 4 weeks after the divorce was final.

When she started dating her lover, I started going out public, and finally had some freedom. I eventually met a woman who was supportive, and had a wonderful life with her, until some guy with a $5 million patent decided to give her half if she would marry him. Just before that, I found out that my ex-wife and her husband were using a belt on my kids. Shortly after, we broke up, my ex-wife told me that if I continued the transition, she would have my visitation revoked. She had a letter from a fundamentalist Christian social worker addressed to a Fundamentalist Christian Judge, who my ex-wife assured me, would enforce the order without hesitation. Again, I was about to be labeled as a sex offender - without even so much as a trial or hearing.

Child support was draining me financially, I got a high paid consulting engagement in the NYC area. I hoped that if I could come out there, I might find some people who would be more supportive, and I did. But when I was only able to talk to them on the telephone, and I hadn't seen them for 3 years, I had also been in a leadership training program where they told me that I had to stop dressing if I wanted to be a leader. What I REALLY wanted was a sex change, but instead I felt I had to stay male for the kids, in case they needed me.

When my daughter (my youngest) announced that she was getting married, it was like I was being released. I had a stroke about 2 months before the planned wedding, and was actually looking forward to moving on to whatever was next. I didn't really want to stay in this body anymore. I had a DNR, which meant they couldn't put me into a medically induced coma, and I figured it was only a matter of days before I bled out and died. I had even instructed the hospital to use my body for spare parts. My 2nd wife suggested that I could go to my daughter's wedding if I wanted. I don't know that it was about that that made me want to be there. Perhaps wanting to see my daughter be the bride I would never be?

I had gained so much weight that I knew I would never be a young and beautiful woman now. I had just settled into the harsh reality that I would eventually die as a man, the sooner the better. I ended up doing work in Saudi Arabia, and after that Stockholm Sweden. That was when I started playing with Second Life. I got to live the fantasy of being a woman, a beautiful and sexy woman. I didn't let anyone know that I was a man. They didn't even guess or suspect. I played almost obsessively for about 3 months. I also started to think more seriously about losing some weight so that I could start dressing in real life again. Over the next 2 years, lost 85 lbs, and could even pass. I grew my hair out, fixing it up with a curling iron. Unfortunately, I was going bald. I tried getting a perm, but instead of waves, I ended up looking like a fat Richard Simmons, so I cut it all off.

Just before my dad died, he said "if there's nothing else I give you, I want to be yourself", and reminded me that he had read my facebook postings - which included pictures of Debbie and her adventures. He was finally giving me his blessing to transition. My grandfather was dead, my mom was dead, and now my dad was dead. The last time I saw my grandmother, she asked "Are you a boy or a girl?" - she couldn't tell from my voice, and couldn't see well enough to tell. I think she had known all along, which is why she let me play in the cellar, where all of the bridesmaid's dresses were stored.

When I started exploring transition again, my second wife made it clear that she was OK with my dressing, even man-boobs, but she could not accept my dressing. She would lose many rights and privileges as my wife if I transitioned - because same-sex marriage is not legal in New Jersey.

Thanks Governor Christie.

At this point, there are times when the despair is so deep and intense that I seriously think about death as the only way I could ever become the pretty woman I've wanted to be my whole life. It's not the first time, and won't be the last. For now, it's just one day at a time, as it has been for the last 32 years.

[Laurie Ann]

Debbie sweetie all I can say is WOW. I pray you do find the light at the end of the tunnel

[Inna]

Debbie, this is a chilling recollection, a portrait of sorrowful life surrounded by regret and pain of inability to shake the bonds placed on many of conformance to others expectations. Even more so unsettling, as I have lived such life right up to the point of no return.
I am sorry for your pain and know too well of its grasp on a fainting soul, but please know this, it truly is "never too late", never to late to shake the shackles of compliance and take the first true breath of life, YOUR and no one else!

[Sara Jessica]

I don't think I've ever come across a more condescending or more divisive thread. You have twisted the extremes of such a notion. Why not take it to a base level and leave it at that?...perhaps as in there is nothing more feminine than putting the needs of others above your own. Or does that fly in the face of your own personal blueprint for transition and the damage that might have been left in it's wake???

Forgive me if I take this way too personally but I am part of a sub-group you are choosing to paint with this brush. I am vocal in how MY struggle affects ME. How I am CHOOSING to put what I have built over my other needs. I have NEVER said this is the moral or right thing to do for anyone but ME, nor have I ever heard anyone else suggest that this is the case. The encouragement that I offer to others in my situation is that MY choice, OUR choice, is simply an option out there. There are more than a few of us who choose this path. When it comes to community, we tend to be champions for the greater good, for the cause of the TS woman out there. But it's times like this when I wonder why I even care. I guess it's because I am more than fortunate to have the support of many woman who have transitioned who are challenging me with ideas and wisdom in making such momentous decisions, not to mention the encouragement to stay on this middle path if at all possible.

Until you know first hand the joys I am able to experience in my family life, that many of us experience in our family lives, you have no right to be so dismissive of what we as a sub-group are experiencing. My love for my family is not defined by gender, it defies it.

Some things are best left unsaid.

[KellyJameson]

A woman in the position of "consciously thinking she is a man" would experience every moment as a obliteration to that part of her that knows otherwise so life would be experienced as sacrifice of self but by circumstances not by choice, there is an absence of free will.

Sacrifice implies elements of choice and lives in the active conscious but who we are is what we are completely.

Gender does not live in the conscious because it was created in the past and only enters the conscious because it was lost so existed separate from the conscious and is than found so the past and the present are reunited and the conscious experiences the mistake of its intellectual understanding of gender.

The truth is discovered healing the fracture between conscious thinking and the knowing brain.

The brain knows its sex even if the conscious does not and will ceaselessly push the conscious to discover the intellectual mistake it is making.

Sacrifice is independant of gender unless the truth of gender is under attack so you are than expected to be what you are not and cannot be which is than sacrificing the self but not by ones own "choice" but by the continual and never ending assault on the person who others do not "see" which obliterates or disallows the self stopping self awareness and self experiencing

Gender (brain sex) is not a choice, it just "is" and always was.

Male self sacrifice is earning the priviledge to partake in the power to create life that the woman holds so man stands outside of the circle of life while being a part of it and his connection is always tenuous, there are "women&children" and than the men which for them is "as it should be".

The closes a transsexual woman can come to motherhood is through a surrogate but she is one of two mothers to the children and may be the superior of the two, she does not by her very nature stand outside the circle of life because she is not a man but she is still expected to stand outside the circle and the sense of injustice runs deep because once again her womanhood is not being acknowledged

For men the notion of male sacrifice is natural and preferable because it is in relationship to the woman as a man but is not experienced as the sacrifice of self but the trade of one "self" for another "self" and is experienced as a maturation not a theft of self so is a display of earned honor.

Expected self sacrifice for a transsexual is experienced as repression because it attacks the true self which is not male but for a male the words of Cesar Chavez make perfect sense because men need to prove their worth and this is instinctual to the male but not the transsexual who is instinctively maternal not paternal.

Men instinctively understand that they are "less than" women in that they devalue life because of sex so live their lifes to make amends for the sins of the sex they were born into, i.e. sex equals violence but they are not guilty of this only responsible for it because it stands outside them and inside nature.

To objectify a female you must be a male, a transsexual is not able to objectify a female without experiencing guilt because it is experienced as objectifying the self so is experienced as a violation.

These of course are all my own opinions based on how I have experienced my own transsexualism.

[Aprilrain]

To objectify a female you must be a male, a transsexual is not able to objectify a female without experiencing guilt because it is experienced as objectifying the self so is experienced as a violation.
.

I don't think this is neccarily true. I know a woman who is bisexual, she will only sleep with other woman who are "dumb and kinda trashy" what is that if not objectification? It's all about sex for her and has nothing to do with the other woman as a person.

my motivations for hiding who I was were totally fear based and had nothing to do with a need to sacrifice for my family. If transition is selfish then I'm just keeping with the personal trend, I think it was selfish and self serving of me to cause my family so much grief ( I was crazy!) by denying myself the right to live. Maybe it hurts a little that I'm not who they thought I was but I think it hurt them even more and certainly was hurting me to live a lie.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I don't see the value of trying to draw these types of distinctions.

There is probably some kind of objective absolute truth that describes the nature of sacrifice, but so what.

Yes as mtf transsexuals we are faced with "obliteration" but how can we say that is a male or female thing? Why would someone really care?? Are FTM transsexuals not faced with the same thing??

[Kate Simmons]

It depends on your outlook. I can fulfill both roles with ease. I don't consider it to be a sacrifice as a man as much as a joy and privilege. You can only have this outlook when you realize it's not all about you but also others who depend on you and love you. :)

[LeaP]

I don't think I've ever come across a more condescending or more divisive thread. You have twisted the extremes of such a notion. Why not take it to a base level and leave it at that?...perhaps as in there is nothing more feminine than putting the needs of others above your own. Or does that fly in the face of your own personal blueprint for transition and the damage that might have been left in it's wake???

Forgive me if I take this way too personally but I am part of a sub-group you are choosing to paint with this brush. I am vocal in how MY struggle affects ME. How I am CHOOSING to put what I have built over my other needs. I have NEVER said ...

Until you know first hand the joys I am able to experience in my family life, that many of us experience in our family lives, you have no right to be so dismissive of what we as a sub-group are experiencing. My love for my family is not defined by gender, it defies it. ...


You are taking this quite personally. It's not necessary. I'm happy that you're happy with your choices. I'm happy that you're not one of those who reflexively calls for sacrifice, no matter what the circumstances, or the cost.

I also know family well. I grew up in a huge extended family. I have nearly 50 cousins and our family is thoroughly intertwined. We have six children and two grandchildren. People can and should sacrifice for their families in many ways, big and small.

I am not, however, arguing the extremes as much as you think I am. There are times, of course, when it is appropriate or necessary to sacrifice one's physical life. That's not what I'm talking about here.

I'm talking about the ability to live authentically when your core identity - your very being - is not what it appears to be to others. To ask someone else, someone you claim to love, to live a completely false life, is more than anyone has a right to ask (or expect). Contrary to the extreme circumstances which may demand the sacrifice of one's life, in this case I'm talking about living a lie in order for somebody to simply maintain normalcy. There's nothing noble about that. That's using somebody as a prop. THAT'S extreme.

I am also not referring to good faith, free will choice. You appear to have done that in your life. Many do not. Instead, they are, or feel, heavily coerced. And the cultural expectation with which they've been raised puts pressure on them that is more than they can bear. And so they suffer – and all too often kill themselves.

My proposition is simply this. It is that the expectations of sacrifice for males in our culture is limitless, and therefore sets up transsexual and gender variant people of all types for greater suffering, longer and more difficult struggles for self understanding, and more misery than they deserve.

We have one life. Everyone has a natural human right to live as they truly are. And no one should be expected to live a lie. To your point, individuals should also be free to choose where they draw their own lines. When a path is chosen out of freedom and honesty, as it appears to have been in your case, well and good. All too often, it is not. And that is tragic.



Yes as mtf transsexuals we are faced with "obliteration" but how can we say that is a male or female thing? Why would someone really care?? Are FTM transsexuals not faced with the same thing??

I believe it is different for FTM's. There appears to be less trauma and drama in that community. The suicide rates are reportedly lower. Those who are gender variant disappear pretty seamlessly into the general population.

The point isn't really the differential, though. The reason we should care is to see the problem for what it is. First, we can avoid inflicting it on our own children. Second, we can recognize it as part of the struggle when someone is going through a gender crisis and speak specifically to the cultural expectation instead of in generalities regarding living authentically. In other words, addressing head-on why people feel they can't live as themselves.

[KellyJameson]

We live within a relationship to nature independant of social relationships so to have the "knowing" of being a woman with a body that does not reflect this "feels" unnatural completely independant of the "social intellect" that we can "think about", it is utterly personal in that the conflict is between the natural and the social but inside (between the "is" and the "acquired" )

Stripping away all of the other reasons for sex and looking at it purely as the expression in nature for reproduction which is the original source of this energy that all of life carries is experienced as a buried truth that lives below our conscious awareness, I can articulate this energy with words but must experience it with my body.

At this level sex "feels" unnatural so I would than consciously look for a solution to the feeling state of "being" unnatural but for me there was no solution because of my sensitivity to my own nature (biology) so I could not go against and dominant the "feeling self" of my nature or I would experience a state of war with myself.

For me sacrifice lives on two levels and one you can make and the other you cannot because it is not a choice but a choice made for you.

When you go against nature you go against your design so live outside of nature which is "you" and being transsexual places you outside of nature by circumstance so to not change the body is to live unnaturally in that you live against your own life. Disease is unnatural to life not because it is a part of life but because it destroys it so is contrary to lives purpose which is to survive.

We think about the social aspects but for me that was only half the problem and actually in my case the lesser problem, it was living contrary to nature that was slowly destroying me that than created many of the social consequences.

I understand now that for me it starts in the beginning with biology (nature) but I was distracted by the social implications.

When we die for another this is not sacrifice but self interest because we have kept the higher value and sacrificed the lesser value and our values are a part of us that are aquired so we are not born with them even though our design influences those values we may adopt or reject.

The act of sacrifice is immediate and done without conscious thought but it is still the expression of the collective "acquired" conscious thought learned (created) in and by life that comes after birth.

Being transsexual starts before birth so is a product of nature so we are created by nature but are unnatural to natures design. We are created by nature but asked to exist outside of nature by that which has created us.

We are born into hell, we did not earn it so cannot be held accountable for it.

It is a birth right of all of life to live disease free because disease is contrary to life so whatever each does in relation to this is the expression of their "natural rights"

Expecting someone to live with a disease is immoral because those doing the asking would not live with disease.

This is the healthy telling the sick they have no right to health.

[ReineD]

I agree, no one has a right to ask another to live a lie. But, do they truly understand what they are asking? Do they really get it, after having lived a lifetime with someone and having no clue about the gender dysphoria (assuming your wife did not know)?

My SO is not TS and as you know, I am fully supportive of her self-expression, even if she were to wake up tomorrow and announce that she needs to transition. Our long-term relationship would likely change (although I do not know this for sure) and hopefully we would remain friends, but I would not hold back on my unconditional support. I would fly with her to Thailand and hold her hand if she asked me to. Still, I can honestly say that despite everything that I do know, despite having read your stories, your joys, and your anguishes here, I still would not "get it". I can imagine how much more difficult it would be for me to understand if we had had 30 years together as husband and wife, and had 6 kids and 2 grandchildren. I might hear her words, but I would have 30 years of contrary experience telling me it mustn't be true. Maybe the proper word for your wife's reaction is denial (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/denial/SR00043), a coping mechanism for things that are too difficult to immediately bear.

It must be an unbearable situation for you and your wife and I can't imagine living though this. You mention men, particularly, who are called upon to sacrifice in our culture more than women. What of F2Ms whose husbands feel abandoned and whose children stop talking to them? Do you think they also do not put themselves through hell for years, struggling over their decisions?

[Bree-asaurus]

I believe it is different for FTM's. There appears to be less trauma and drama in that community. The suicide rates are reportedly lower. Those who are gender variant disappear pretty seamlessly into the general population.


It must be an unbearable situation for you and your wife and I can't imagine living though this. You mention men, particularly, who are called upon to sacrifice in our culture more than women. What of F2Ms whose husbands feel abandoned and whose children stop talking to them? Do you think they also do not put themselves through hell for years, struggling over their decisions?

Thank you Reine. I know many MTFs and FTMs in person and, in my experience, the struggles they face are the same. They might have it easier (on average) than MTFs AFTER transition because visually they can blend easier, but getting there is still just as difficult and dangerous.

I think sometimes this forum tends to have a bias towards MTFs because that's the majority of the people that post here. But there is no male or female when it comes to sacrifice, responsibilities or suffering. They have it just as hard as we do.

[LeaP]

This is not a "poor us" thread. Facts are facts. Please have look at the link below for a summary of relative suicide rates among MTF and FTM transsexuals.

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~ramsay/transgender-transsexual-suicide-studies-world.htm

If you don't think it is due to cultural attitudes and expectations imposed upon the male population, to what do you attribute this? There is clearly something going on here. It needs to be dealt with, not dismissed. It's not that my notion is necessarily correct - I've been wrong on lots of things - but not digging into the source is to accept these rates.

[morgan51]

I beleive I was living in fear and denial the first 5 years of my life convinced me I was a female I had no idea what sex or gender was just that my body was wrong. I spent the next 51 years fearfully trying to hide coverup make my life look male from the outside. I actually pulled it off pretty well but the lie was everpresent and no ammount of sacrifice would keep it down. at 56 yrs. I erupted into transition and have become acustomed to loss and the joy that accompanys transition. It is a journey not a destination for me and I seem to experience more loss and more joy almost daily it certainly is not for the fainthearted. Hugs to all my sisters you all know who you are!

[ReineD]

Lea, there's no doubt that the suicide/attempted suicide rate is higher among transpersons than anyone else.

As to the higher incidence among M2Fs compared to F2Ms, they don't say whether all other variables are the same. One thing that comes to mind, is whether someone is single vs. having family responsibilities. The F2Ms seem to seek help for GID at a younger age, and they may feel less guilt if they haven't committed to marriage and children? Also, although changing genders is just as taboo among both genders for family members, I do think that the interim transition period with strangers is more difficult for birth males since people overall feel that it is more of a travesty for birth males to express femininity than it is for birth females expressing masculinity ... loss of male privilege and all that.

And last, I wonder how many of the M2F suicides were among true transsexuals, or if there might not be a number of autogynephilics whose sexual compulsions were too much to bear. I have read accounts by AGP men who became incapacitated in virtually all areas of their lives with their compulsions and I don't know if such men would seek to transition only to discover that becoming women did not resolve anything. I gather the rate of sexual compulsives among F2Ms is much lower, for example there are fewer F2M crossdressers than M2Fs.

I'm just throwing out possible explanations for the different suicide rates as an alternative to the male sacrifice theory you proposed.

[LeaP]

Reine,

Your general point on variables is valid. Some of your examples, however, reinforce the theme (e.g., sacrifice for family). The cultural view of the desirability of male vs female expression and privilege is certainly a factor, however.

I don't think age is a differentiator - and perhaps also reinforces the sacrifice theme. Suicide rates are highest among two groups: older males and teenagers. Some suspect higher proportion of suicides among teens may be due to gender issues than has been reported. I haven't seen a breakout of male vs female trans suicide. I would bet good money that the male rate is higher, though.

The autogynephiliac suggestion strikes me as very unlikely.

[ReineD]

Reine,

Your general point on variables is valid. Some of your examples, however, reinforce the theme (e.g., sacrifice for family). The cultural view of the desirability of male vs female expression and privilege is certainly a factor, however.

My point was, if a M2F is younger and single, would the suicide attempt be as high or conversely, if a F2M is older and married with children, would the rate increase? Another consideration not previously mentioned: even if the F2M is married with kids ... would the biological bonding that results from having carried a child stave off a suicide attempt, more than if the F2M had not given birth to anyone?

I mention age only as a predictor of the likelihood of having started a family. In one of the studies the average age for F2Ms was 25 compared to 32 for M2Fs.

If most everyone in the studies are childless and single, then my point is moot.

[Thera Home]

What her say??...................:thinking:



Thera

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Culturally speaking there is little doubt that women have a leg up on men with regards to having room to express gender flexibility...girls can be more like guys and "get away with it" without getting mocked, shamed and literally beaten up...

To me its really that simple. The notions you bring up Lea have validity and are a good subject for debate.

But i'm a keep it simple stupid person, and it seems to me that the notion of trying to define levels or types of sacrifice is more analysis than neccessary to understand that it sucks way more to be a girl growing up as a guy because of the way guys are treated


and Reine you are obsessed over AGP!!! lol..

[ReineD]

and Reine you are obsessed over AGP!!! lol..

It's a real concern. Not among true-TSs (the people with GID), but among some of the non-binary, gender non-conformining. And this holds true no matter how anyone chooses to self-identify, since the accuracy of self-identification is sometimes compromised by various forms of denial no matter which side of the fence someone is at.

I have spent many years talking to GG spouses and CDers, AGP is real or at least many people see evidence of it in their sex lives, yet there seems to be a reluctance to discuss it or take it into consideration among TGs in general (possibly because it was wrongly, in my opinion, used unilaterally as a motive for transition for non-male-attracted transitioners). And it seems to me that it is difficult to resolve issues between married couples who are affected by this, unless AGP is ackknowleged when and if it is present.

So I don't think it's an obsession so much as a desire for truth in a community that sometimes prefers to not discuss AGP, or only wishes to discuss the fact that it does not apply to someone who does have GID no matter what their sexual preferences are. :p

[Frances]

What does the acronym AGP stand for? I have looked on Acronym finder and did a Google search, but I found nothing.

[Bree-asaurus]

What does the acronym AGP stand for? I have looked on Acronym finder and did a Google search, but I found nothing.

Autogynaphilia (spelling?). It's something like a male being sexually attracted to themselves when wearing women's cloths.

[Frances]

Autogynaphilia (spelling?). It's something like a male being sexually attracted to themselves when wearing women's cloths.

I know about autogynephilia, I even mentioned it in the gender change thread. I had never seen an acronym. It is only one word, you know? LOL

Thanks Bree

[Bree-asaurus]

I know about autogynephilia, I even mentioned it in the gender change thread. I had never seen an acronym. It is only one word, you know? LOL

Thanks Bree

Yeah... lol. I never saw it used as AGP either, but someone spelled it out earlier in the thread so I just assumed.

[EnglishRose]

I thought this was the old archaic port for graphics cards :D

(no I didn't, just had to joke about it)

[ColleenA]

From the OP:

... One argument that I have tried to advance, though, is how male the notion of self-sacrifice for one's family is. Please don't misunderstand. Women sacrifice too, and sacrifice heavily for their families. More typically, however, their sacrifice takes the form of dedicating their lives to their families through what they are rather than by serving them by living falsely. Men by contrast are expected to make any sacrifice, including their own obliteration. ...

How much of the struggle to be authentic is due to this exaggerated notion of male self-sacrifice?

I just finished a fascinating book - "A Strange Stirring: The Feminine Mystique and American Women at the Dawn of the 1960s." Author Stephanie Coontz assesses the impact that Betty Friedan's 1963 book had - in the '60s as well as in the decades since. "The Feminine Mystique" is widely thought to be the impetus behind not just the women's movement of the 1960s in general, but more specifically women burning their bras, demanding equal pay for equal work, and driving up the divorce rate.

In fact, there is a lot right and a lot wrong about such a summation. But a primary thing Friedan's book did achieve was to tell thousands and thousands of women who felt discontented and isolated in their lives, who felt underutilized and unappreciated for all their abilities, who felt short-changed by what they were told they should want, that what they were experiencing was not unique. They were, rather, part of an immense sorority buying into society's conditioning.

The first major push for women's rights in the U.S. began before the Civil War. Many women in the anti-slavery movement, seeking equal rights for African-Americans, also started to argue for equal rights for themselves (women were also treated largely like property at the time, though in ways distinct from slaves). Some outcomes of this (though it took 50+ years to achieve) were that women obtained the vote after World War I and women's enrollment in college rose dramatically between the wars.

Though women were a significant part of the civilian work force during WWII while so many men served in the military, women's role as pushed by American society changed rapidly after the war. Some major factors contributing to this were: (1) women were expected to give up their jobs for the many ex-military men returning to the job market; (2) American industry boomed for more than 20 years after the war and sought "happy homemakers" as a major market of consumers; (3) television propagated the ideal, "normal" American family as consisting of an employed husband, a stay-at-home wife, and children who had problems minor enough that they could be solved in 30 minutes; yet at the same time, (4) the psychiatric community increasingly blamed mothers for numerous social problems, including juvenile delinquency, and women were told that they had to be "better" (read, in part, "more conforming") wives and mothers.

Meanwhile, women who attended college, attaining the highest levels of education for women at any time in history, and even those with high school educations (something rare enough prior to the 20th century) were being told that their brains did not matter. Instead, they should not only accept, but actively pursue, one and only role - that of homemaker. Any woman who wanted to be a doctor or a pilot or to pursue a PhD was looked at as, at best, odd and unfeminine. (Well, ok, women could be teachers and nurses, but most would be expected to set even that aside once married with children.)

So a very confining set of expectations about what women should do (and want) was being pushed on them. And they were made to feel guilty about having interests outside the four walls of the home where their only contribution to society could be serving their family.

Friedan crystallized for countless women what they couldn't put into words - that they wanted so much more out of life than this simplistic end. (And while "The Feminine Mystique" was not the SOLE spark that ignited the women's movement of the '60s, it was one of the top factors.)

In other words, what Friedan did was tell women that they did not have to "sacrifice ... their lives to their families ... by living falsely" and by being restricted to a narrow range of options that rejected their three-dimensionality, but instead contributed to "their own obliteration."

And this still applies today. I think, LeaP, that society puts a lot of pressure on men AND women as to how they are supposed to sacrifice their own individual interests to the "greater good," and one of the most ready, obvious channels for this is "self-sacrifice for one's family."

So to me, sacrificing self (and self-interests) for one's family is far from being a male thing. Everything that a woman does for her family does not necessarily or automatically dovetail with her innate interests and motivations as an individual. Millions of women have given up (often unwillingly) their own dreams as they give of themselves for others. Is this not an "exaggerated notion of ... self-sacrifice"?