distinction

[Inna]

Ok lets try this again!

As I dwell on the intricacies of trans condition, weather it be, expressing femaleness through clothing such as CDing or living life as a woman she was born but unable to be congruent until transition such as TSwoman, I come to new and deeper understanding of this illusive yet in my view quite explainable condition.

As I wrote a post in the cd section which had to do with wearing garments and what such act did for folks I have received a response which gave me suddenly a more precise view of what I perceive as confirmed finding.

What I believe now that crossdressing in any shape or form, weather fetishistic, non fetishistic, expressive of feminine self or just mere as some put it "love wearing womans clothes" comes down to projecting an image of a woman which happens to be outside of self!!!! An image, or if you will, projection of the inner desires, wants and ideals in a expression which stands alone and apart from that individual.

The crossdresser therefore is expressing femaleness yet remains male who happens to carry feminine thoughts or desires.

When does the switch happen so that crossdresser no longer is comprised of separate manifestation of a woman but becomes that woman within her own expression?

And I think I got it, the moment when desire "TO BE" or if you will, powerlessness against force of truth, overwhelms ability to remain in limbo or status quo!. The ending solution to denial and full on embrace of inevitability of what may come, make for such person to now become a woman as supposed to projecting an image of one.

Withing the post I also had discussion on arousal and how the image of a woman in the mirror makes CDer feel aroused. Such provided me with concept of, projected image being separate from the individual and experienced as someone other then self! Once such visual image becomes congruent with the psyche of a person, body becomes one with mind, and arousal to self is simply impossible (unless some psychological conditions exist outside of healthy mind).

Well here is my thesis, I tried to make it as simple as I could, hope you will get the sense of this idea.

What are your thoughts on such distinction????

For admin: please let this post be heard, as I am discussing idea of transgender continuum unlike the thread in CD section which only describes physicality of garment wearing. Thanks :)

[Nigella]

For admin: please let this post be heard, as I am discussing idea of transgender continuum unlike the thread in CD section which only describes physicality of garment wearing. Thanks :)

Oh OK seen as you asked so nicely :)

[melissaK]

The ending solution to denial and full on embrace of inevitability of what may come, make for such person to now become a woman as supposed to projecting an image of one.

I think I can go along with this. I would add that I think its not just an ending solution about denial, I have been past that for some time (humor me on that), but I have been mired in the internal conflict of wanting to transition, and to stay married to a genuine soul mate who isn't on board with this agenda. I have stayed on the fence as long as I can, and as I leave the fence and move toward transition, I find an authentic "me" emerging. So, I think it's more the decision to "embrace inevitability." I'm still a long way from the end . . . so what do I know.

[Kathryn Martin]

When does the switch happen so that crossdresser no longer is comprised of separate manifestation of a woman but becomes that woman within her own expression?

And I think I got it, the moment when desire to be overwhelms ability to withhold such desire. The ending solution to denial and full on embrace of inevitability of what may come, make for such person to now become a woman as supposed to projecting an image of one.

I think this part of your hypothesis needs more thought and differentiation. Especially the "when desire overwhelms ability to withhold such desire" needs a careful examination. Ask yourself who desires, who overwhelms and who is overwhelmed. What is it that is being desired? Why is the object of the desire being withheld?

[Inna]

I think this part of your hypothesis needs more thought and differentiation. Especially the "when desire overwhelms ability to withhold such desire" needs a careful examination. Ask yourself who desires, who overwhelms and who is overwhelmed. What is it that is being desired? Why is the object of the desire being withheld?

I reread my statement and after such examination I still am understanding it same way, however I might have used indirect classifiers, I will try a different approach.
When desire "TO BE" or if you will, powerlessness against force of truth, overwhelms ability to remain in limbo or status quo!

[ReineD]

Inna, not everyone is on the same path.

Some folks who currently believe they are CDers may eventually stop projecting a woman's image that is outside of themselves and come to internalize her. Of these folks, some will eventually realize they are TS and there will be no more need for the male mask, while others will discover they are genuinely a gender that is outside the binary, which is a blurried gender line or an amalgamation of masculine and feminine identities and traits. These people pretty much accept their status quo (their birth bodies combined with an alternative gender identity), and quite a few manage to do this successfully.

While for some folks, it will always remain a fetish, whether the fetish is purely seeking orgasm and using a woman's image to feel weak and vulnerable, or if it is more a feel-good type desire that comes from the enjoyment of being admired as a beautiful woman. The compulsion in this case is beauty and feeling beautiful. Or there is overlap. While for others, it will always remain a compulsion for one primary thing, even though there can also be secondary and tertiary items added: for the clothes, for long red fingernails, for long hair, for wedding dresses or leotards or any other particular item ... the list is long.

People fetishize/become obsessed with all types of things for various reasons and to various degress without feeling as if they are any gender other than birth, and not all of these obsessions are sexual. But, if for some reason those things happen to be items associated with the opposite gender as opposed to being something "gender-acceptable" like bondage, latex, fur, any OCD behavior, etc, then they have no other words to call themselves than crossdressers.

This site may not attract the pure sexual fetishists who are not interested in exploring any inner woman (because she isn't there), because of the site rules. But, they are out there big time. We have members here who do nothing other than post pics in the gallery. Is their thing a desire for exhibitionism of something they consider is taboo?

Sorry to go on a tangent that is different than the direction you're going with, but I'm pointing out that not everyone is, or is meant to be a transwoman.

[Saffron]

I think gender identity it's not binary. It's a full spectrum, and each one is in a different position. Since our current society only believes in two genres, male and female, often a person has to choose, so the people who are more close to the male genre stays like this, some of them being CD. And the people who fells more close to the female side, does a full transition.

It's a big problem when you're in the gray area between the two genres, cause it's very difficult to discern which genre suits you.

BTW I'm talking only about gender identify, sexual orientation is a complete separate matter.

[josee]

Inna, for myself, I did go through a period of fetishistic crossdressing which over time became non-fetishistic and eventually led to an awakening of the girl that I had kept bound and gaged buried beneath the persona of the guy I had created to take her place.

For me it was a gradual process where while trying to make myself presentable and convincing as a female (still very much a work in progress) I began to hear and feel her from within.

However, long before the fetishistic crossdressing phase there was the little girl who cut out paper dolls and played hop scotch on the playground.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

it's not about desire in my opinion... i guess i felt what "felt like" desire, and there is no doubt the feeling of gender dysphoria overwhelms people...but its more like a pull towards something...like you are a magnet and once you are in the zone, you are sucked in...that's the end..

In layperson's terms, I don't beleive people that are gender fluid suffer gender dysphoria because if they are truly dual gendered, their male self can get the authentic relationships and actually feel them as authentic...think of it as a cup of life, that gets filled ...for us, it can never ever get filled...the minutes living as male just will never feel "right" and it gets to be unbearable after a time..the gender fluid person can pull away from the magnet for periods of time, and get their cup filled , the ts can't...

... for someone who feels dual gendered, they still may crave more female interaction that they can get, but its balanced by a fulfilling period of time as male... the dual gendered person lives in a binary gendered world, so that person has their own issues to deal with because they are stuck being male to the rest of the world, and i can imagine that is frustrating, but they never face that moment a non transitioned transsexual faces when they realize for the first time that they will never have another nice normal day for the rest of their lives because they feel like they can't survive the simple act of living their lives...

...so i don't look at it in terms of desiring as much as i do in terms of need

[melissaK]

Well I read the thread since my post and and I think Everyone is right. Kathryn's magnetic pull ananolgy fits my feelings that I don't have a lot of choice about what I feel or what I can do about my transition feelings; and I think Inna is right that surrendering to that magnetic pull is a moment of self discovery, a chance to find Josee's little girl on the playground and carry her into adulthood; and Reine is right that not all CDs deal with the magnetic force of transsexualism, there's a lot of other forces pulling on a lot of other folk, so we have to be careful with our extrapolations based upon our own limited experiences. As always you girls make me feel like I'm taking adult Ed classes at the community college. A good thing. :)

[Inna]

Okee, little bit more of the clarification!!!!

As I set out to describe, this OP is not to define gender, it is not to define weather all are this or that, but it is all about the mechanism of how one does perceive the image in the mirror!!!!


What I believe now that crossdressing in any shape or form, weather fetishistic, non fetishistic, expressive of feminine self or just mere as some put it "love wearing womans clothes" comes down to projecting an image of a woman which happens to be outside of self!!!! An image, or if you will, projection of the inner desires, wants and ideals in a expression which stands alone and apart from that individual.

As I am describing the "IMAGE OF A WOMAN OUTSIDE OF SELF", It links to projection, a saving grace, visualizing and embracing someone who isn't a threat to SELF as they know it because it is expressed totally externally.

Some will get to the point of no return by their growing realization that they are simply running out of strength to keep the image EXTERNAL, then some will never get to the point of such realization because perhaps they are fine doing just what they do, their EXTERNAL visual stimuli is enough to keep a status quo.

The ever so Grand question is: "are we all withing the same path, yet prior conditioning, self awareness or non awareness, environmental conditioning, makes for a distinction between the ones who will go the distance and some who won't" Mind you, the end point of this journey is all the same, to feel a WOMAN, if only for a minute!!!!

PS; I do not buy the argument that a person who is wearing women's clothing isn't trying to express womanhood but some other gender fluidity. If such was true wearing womans clothing would NOT be part of that expression, but perhaps they would wear a fireman suit in expressing the, hmmmmmm, OK bad example because it leads to kind of male domain, ok, how about the cat woman...................ahhhhh, another dead end, how about a scare crow outfit, there you go! A non gender scarecrow outfit.....wait, thats wrong too TOTO told me so, darn, can you see that wearing womens clothing ties in the very specific expression of femininity and not the other combination of gender expression.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the answer to the grand questions would simply be no...not even close.

a person wearing other gendered clothes or a guy wearing makeup can be expressing anything or nothing, even expressing their disdain and condescension...

[ReineD]

In layperson's terms, I don't beleive people that are gender fluid suffer gender dysphoria because if they are truly dual gendered, their male self can get the authentic relationships and actually feel them as authentic...think of it as a cup of life, that gets filled ...for us, it can never ever get filled...the minutes living as male just will never feel "right" and it gets to be unbearable after a time..the gender fluid person can pull away from the magnet for periods of time, and get their cup filled , the ts can't...

I understand what you're saying about a TS's cup never getting filled (until she transitions), but I just want to say that some gender fluid persons feel the same way. We tend to think of feminine expression among CDers (for now I'm speaking of the non-fetish CDs, the people who may call themselves identity-dressers, middlepathers, gender ambiguous, TGs, etc), as being something that gets turned on and off, so as long as they are not constrained in their occasional expression of femininity, they'll be OK. You suggest that these CDers have authentic male relationships they can enjoy since they can be happy within their male selves. You're assuming that their default mode is the binary male.

But there are people who do have a gender identity that is neither binary male nor female, in the way that our society defines it. For example there are males who very much feel they are feminine, but who receive the same messages as anyone else that it is not OK for men to be this way. It is not something they can turn on or off, it is always there, even if they have no wish for SRS. These CDers/TGs/or-any-other-label feel better about themselves with smooth bodies, they feel they look better when they look more feminine than the average male, they prefer the company of women, they do not engage in stereotypical male pursuits in fact it disgusts them to hear male locker-room talk about women. Yet, they do not feel incongruent with their penises and they may not feel the need to have breasts other than the forms they use in order to pass under the radar in public, when they want to express their femininity without being slammed for it. And, these folks find it just as difficult to establish solid relationships with men, as they do with finding GG partners, many of whom tend to reject feminine males, unless they make themselves out to be more masculine than they feel they are.

I've painted a specific example of one person who might be gender fluid, but the needs of each person who falls under this category will differ depending on a wide breadth of variables.

The spectrum is very wide and multi-tiered when it comes to gender identity, and this is not even considering the myriad fetish or compulsive approaches to it that also exist, either in themselves or combined with gender identity issues.

[KellyJameson]

I'm glad that you are thinking about these things Inna. In my opinion even though it will cause you some pain in the short term you will end up more fully "becoming"

When I was eight I almost drowned and to this day I remember fighting for my life and I think of that experience as the "death instinct" which is that all encompassing fight for life when death is imminent.

This was an easy experience to understand because the danger to my life was obvious.

For me the anxiety of gender dysphoria is taking that moment when I was fighting for my life because I was drowning "stretched out" over thirty years before I finally understood what I was trying to fight for which was my life.

When I was drowning and fighting for my life the battle consumed me and there was no time to think about if I was a boy or girl because I was just trying to survive and for me this was gender dysphoria as well but instead of reacting I should have been thinking about gender.

For me the dysphoria caused a paradox of reacting to it and reacting to it stopped me from going into it where the truth lay.

I lived with no sense of self because I was a mind with no "body" so it is like living but never being born.

In this state everything was "outside" me including my body so by wearing clothes I was trying to discover my body so that I could discover myself.

I was trying to go from living with "no self" to "becoming" and so being born into existence.

Gender dysphoria is a fight for life (to be born) so defines your relationship to life and death.

With gender dysphoria there is no help from the mothers contractions to push you down the birth canal, you have to do it all on your own.

My whole life I have been obsessed with psychology because this was my way of trying to be born but at the time I thought I was trying to heal myself from the effects of my childhood and I was but the mistake I made was thinking that this was the only source of my pain.

Being transsexual is a very specific place on the spectrum because you travel from one place all the way across the universe to its opposite and sometimes I feel like I have been shot out of a cannon against my will.

I experienced it as a violent rejection and movement away from the "male world including the physical me outside me" so symbolically it was represented by the male and female image.

This can cause confusion because the feminine really is more than the body and is a state of mind that the brain dictates.

When I reached that point where I could look back at the patterns of my life with the understanding that my brain is female regardless of what I may intellectually want to believe everything became perfectly clear and all the pieces fell into place.

In my opinion for a transsexual you are not going from the male to female but from not being born to being born, from a living death to life.

Others on the spectrum have already been born and they are "expanding" because they have something to expand with but as a transsexual your life is placed in a permanent holding pattern of never being born, of never being fully realized because you do not have the vehicle to expand with.

What you call the increasing desire is the discovery of hope and its respective discovery of the "will to live" .

When I was drowning as I fought my way back to the surface the light of day that reflected off the surface of the water was my guide and that is what I fought to reach.

With gender dysphoria when you see this light reflected over the water and you swim up toward it the desire to live becomes much stronger because now you have direction through understanding and hope that life is possible so the will to live that energizes the fight for life grows.

[Kate Simmons]

As far as I can see your thesis is true unless the person has equally balanced the male and female feelings and energies. In such a case, the person sees self as self, presentation notwithstanding, that is core self or core soul. That is the point when the person becomes a full spectrum one, capable of multiple expression according to choice.In essence the person becomes a fully functional multi-dimensional being.:)

[melissaK]

I'm still waiting to think someone is wrong. I still think I get Innas postulate.
And I like Kelly J's comments, I think they're compatible expressions of the same phenomena of awareness. At some point the undeveloped TS has to awaken into the world and develop - like Josee's story of the hopscotching girl on the playground before her cross gender self was rejected and forced to hide (holding her breath to avoid drowning to relate it to the fighting for life metaphor).
And I like Kate's exception, it fits with everything Reines been saying.
I really like you girls. :)