"Didn't sign up for this"

[VS Fan]

Didn't want to hijack another thread for this tangent, but I've seen the argument on here plenty of times that our wives have a right to not accept CD'ing because they "didn't sign up for it" when we were married. (This thread is somewhat specific to CD'ing and not those who want to transition, since that's a different direction and usually a different conversation with the wife...)

Other things spouses don't sign up for:

- cancer or other diseases that require lots of care
- wounded in combat / accidental loss of limb that requires care / compassion
- going bald (certainly less serious than the first two and more superficial)
- gaining lots of weight (ditto to #3)
- losing a long time career / job and can't get back into same field

I'm sure there are others (leaving "cheating" off the list, since that's a *direct* breaking of the vows by one party)... but the point is that wedding vows include "for better and for worse, for richer and for poorer, in sickness and health ...."

Ultimately it all comes down to the ability to cope and the depth of the love felt between the two people. Love can overcome most things if it's strong enough... so I'm not sure "I didn't sign up for this" is *technically* a valid excuse. I think it's certainly an HONEST reaction, but there are many other factors at play in a relationship.

Curious what others think about this. At the end of the day it's all semantics because as human beings, we can keep vows, break vows, stay with spouses, leave spouses, as we have free will to do as we choose...

VS Fan

[Kate Simmons]

This is more or less true but none of the things you pointed out are the potential "deal breaker." They do not threaten the spouse's femininity. This is what happened my wife. She felt she could not compete with my femme self, so eventually left me. There are many things to consider and it basically depends on both the partners in a relationship.:)

[angela2112]

Said this before........... A crossdresser knows he's a crossdresser before he gets married. It's unfair on the wife to be if he doesn't tell her. She should have the chance to either accept it or not before throwing herself into a marriage where she won't be the only one wearing skirts.

[Saffron]

In fact the list is a real deal breaker. You can add also having a baby.

But it's true that in our current society, if someone tells you that a couple got divorced cause the man or woman didn't want to deal with his partner having cancer or taking care of their children, sounds like a monster. BUT if you tell them that she leave him because his crossdressing, it's ok.

strange at least.

[cdsara]

this is what was said to me last night. shes feels like I am cheating on her. that this is something that makes me feel good but not with her. so now she wants me to get rid of sara completely or else. its going to be a rough few weeks or months, back to therapy i guess and see if it helps.

[discreet_mga]

In my case I never had any interest or involvement with crossdressing until after I was married. My crossdressing is something my wife does not know about and I do feel confident, from general conversations, that it is not something she would accept. This might be a little unusual for crossdressers. While I feel I have always had a more feminine side there was never any thought about expressing it until I was already married and older. I have been married for 16 years but never considered crossdressing until about 9 years ago. However, I did not really start fully dressing and getting out until a little under 2 years ago. In any case I did not have that information available to present to my wife before we got married. Delicate situation.

[Danielle Gee]

I would think that a lot depends on "when" one knows about some of the issues you have noted. What gets a lot of CD's in deep trouble with their SO is that they knew about their issues with CDing, but failed to tell them in a timely manner.

Since you used Cancer as an example, allow me to illustrate my point... I would say that the vast majority of people would stand by their mates if they received a diagnosis of cancer. If however, it was revealed that the person knew they had Cancer, and failed to tell their Spouse to be; few would be sympathetic.

I guess what I’m trying to say (poorly) is that in most cases the “what” of the lie isn’t as “ when” it was revealed

Danielle

[Jonianne]

......but I've seen the argument on here plenty of times that our wives have a right to not accept CD'ing because they "didn't sign up for it".......

From what you are saying, it sounds like you don't believe SO's have a right to not accept CD'ing. I think that is the wrong foot to start off on when trying to work out a relationship. I think the best way to work it out is to, first of all, admit that they do have a right to not accept it. And then go from there. CD'ers also have a right to be happy in their lives. So starting with accepting both of those premisis, then you can work on finding a solution that meets the needs of the CD'er as well as respects the boundries of the SO.

Respecting each others rights is the key, but, just know that not all relationships are going to be able to be worked out, no matter how hard you try. Not everything is resolvable. Sometimes you can hang together with unresolvable issues, sometimes you can't.

[Babeba]

Having cancer, gaining weight, losing a job or a limb... These are not things you know about in advance. For the most part, crossdressing is. They are completely different things.

The issue for most GGs (not all) is the feelings of being lied to, betrayed and duped by their spouses. I mean, this is your best friend who knows everything about you and vice versa. Now all of a sudden there is this whole femme side you knew nothing about? Were you not livable enough to tell? Do you really respect me if you could hide this? How could you have me share everything with you and keep this from me? Do I even know the real you?

Let's say the GG partner had had a nose job, and maybe a few other cosmetic surgeries on her face. Maybe it was to correct some facial difference she had as a kid. What if she hid that and never told, because it was in the past? Would you feel okay with that? Looking at her nose every day and not knowing it was hers? What if it was a huge bulbous honker? That ran in the family? And you only found out when your newborn baby had a big nose and someone was all like, 'ooh, Mrs. GG, she's going to have a honker like yours was! Better start saving for that surgery!' Would you feel like you had openly shared your lives and values then? What if you had even had conversations where she asked you how you felt about plastic surgery and you had been against it?

[MsRenee]

Always thought in the vows it was for better or worse sickness an health. For me I didnt become a cd until my mid 30s. At that time id been married for a few yrs. when she found out all heck broke loose. For some they do become acceptance of our second self an envelope it. Me mine enjoys it as most of her g/fs give her b/s . So we just do our thing and enjoy life as we see fit.
Renee

[Jenniferathome]

I think the key point you missed is that we crossdressers who come out after a marriage is consummated, have effectively lied about a part of us to our wife! None of your scenarios cover the lying part.

Would it be ok for a wife to say she didn't sign up for this, if her husband was a criminal and she didn't know? I'd bet you'd make that allowance. Of course crossdressing is not criminal but it is the lying that bothers women more than anything else about crossdressing. They had no chance to make their decision and are now held by vows.

[reb.femme]

In my case I never had any interest or involvement with crossdressing until after I was married. My crossdressing is something my wife does not know about and I do feel confident, from general conversations, that it is not something she would accept. This might be a little unusual for crossdressers. While I feel I have always had a more feminine side there was never any thought about expressing it until I was already married and older. I have been married for 16 years but never considered crossdressing until about 9 years ago. However, I did not really start fully dressing and getting out until a little under 2 years ago. In any case I did not have that information available to present to my wife before we got married. Delicate situation.

Very similar situation to me. I'd had a penchant for femme things early on and it seemed to develop over the years. Married early in life too, how do you tell your wife now, that you are not the person you thought you were? Major dilemma.

I agree with the being honest with your wife/SO argument but this will always be a decision for the individual and not for anyone else I'm afraid. I don't care for anyone else's moral stance and it's as simple as that. Happy to hear their thoughts and will happily introduce them into my own deliberations if I consider them worthy. My wife was and is hurt that I couldn't tell/trust her, so very aware of the problems here, but that's for me to bear and live with. I should add that I'm out to my wife and she is supportive.

Not meant to sound combative here, I just like to deal in the black and white of a somewhat grey area........if that makes any sense in English! :heehee:

[Launa]

Having cancer, gaining weight, losing a job or a limb... These are not things you know about in advance. For the most part, crossdressing is. They are completely different things.

The issue for most GGs (not all) is the feelings of being lied to, betrayed and duped by their spouses. I mean, this is your best friend who knows everything about you and vice versa. Now all of a sudden there is this whole femme side you knew nothing about? Were you not livable enough to tell? Do you really respect me if you could hide this? How could you have me share everything with you and keep this from me? Do I even know the real you?

Let's say the GG partner had had a nose job, and maybe a few other cosmetic surgeries on her face. Maybe it was to correct some facial difference she had as a kid. What if she hid that and never told, because it was in the past? Would you feel okay with that? Looking at her nose every day and not knowing it was hers? What if it was a huge bulbous honker? That ran in the family? And you only found out when your newborn baby had a big nose and someone was all like, 'ooh, Mrs. GG, she's going to have a honker like yours was! Better start saving for that surgery!' Would you feel like you had openly shared your lives and values then? What if you had even had conversations where she asked you how you felt about plastic surgery and you had been against it?

I told my SO that I was a CD right off the bat in our relationship. The big problem came later on when I wanted to go all the way and step out of the house. However prior to that when I was young I thought if I met the right girl that I could always put the CD monster away. I think a lot of us think that way and thats what causes trouble down the road.
If it wasn't such a big taboo problem to CD then most of us would be honest and tell their partners right up front and then the GG could then make her decisions whether to stay or go. If she goes her own way then its a CD's biggest nightmare that she will publicly announce that her X was a crossdresser. If it was that easy I would have told every girl I seriously dated after the age of 18.
I think for a woman to talk about a plastic surgery nose job she had when she was young before getting into a serious relationship would be a heck of a lot easier to discuss than this CD stuff.

You have more experience talking with other women that are going through hard times with their CD partners than I do but honestly I could hear a women say in a group of people ya I broke up from my serious relationship because I found out my boyfriend was a CD and many people would say, "oh how awful, I don't blame you."
If a guy said in a room full of people ya, "I broke up with her cause she had a big nose, then had surgery on it and I don't want my kids to have one." Everybody would think he was an arsehole.

I was out to a show a while ago with some people I met at work. We all started talking and we found out that this couple we were with did not have any kids. I was surprised for some reason. Not sure why, maybe because they look like the were suited to have kids. Anyway the wife of my friend said we decided not to have kids because there is a lot of mental illness in my family. Thats a hard thing to say but I think it would be harder to say, "we didn't have kids because my husband is a CD and it might be hereditary."

I'm not condoning lying to your partner" I just think its easier to discuss health issues with your partner ahead of time than it is to discuss the CD issues.

[Marleena]

Having cancer, gaining weight, losing a job or a limb... These are not things you know about in advance. For the most part, crossdressing is. They are completely different things.

The issue for most GGs (not all) is the feelings of being lied to, betrayed and duped by their spouses. I mean, this is your best friend who knows everything about you and vice versa. Now all of a sudden there is this whole femme side you knew nothing about? Were you not livable enough to tell? Do you really respect me if you could hide this? How could you have me share everything with you and keep this from me? Do I even know the real you?


Even though in some cases the CDer thought it would go away or didn't realize it until they were married the above is common.

Some women would not or could not accept this side of their SO even if they knew in advance. It's just the way it is based on their upbringing, religion or values. I think most women go into marriage based on traditional values and can't be forced to accept the Cding. Sad but true and to be expected.

[Karren H]

Obviously the "for better and for worse" clause doesn't cover undisclosed pr-existing conditions....

[I Am Paula]

This thread hits home big time. My wife is in a wheel chair, with muscular distrophy, and later, breast cancer. She knew about Celeste from very early on, when she was healthier. She was mildly supporting, but would not let me go out, and some really girly things pissed her off. As her desease progressed, to the point she needed constant care, she became overwhelmingly accepting, giving me free reign. We do everthing together, me en femme. So... I've often wondered, is this acceptance free will, or the trade off for her constant care? On the most possitive note, even if it's the trade off, it benefits both of us, and if she truly understands my need to be Celeste, it benefits both of us. I love my wife, will care for her 'till the day she dies, and we live in a win win situation.- Celeste

[Wildaboutheels]

"Love conquers all".

N O T!

One can wish for it all they want but it's not going to change.

[Marleena]

Obviously the "for better and for worse" clause doesn't cover undisclosed pr-existing conditions....

I should add that while you are in a DADT relationship it's the best you know can expect. There are some wonderful people on this board (like yourself) that just happen to be CDers. In some cases it can be worked out between the couple and some level of acceptance found. There are many examples of that on this board. So it's not totally hopeless for a CDer.

[Babeba]

Probably in those cases the CDing did go away for some time. That is not, so I hear, uncommon.

I think for a lot of the cross dressers on this board who are older, have been married since before the Internet, didn't know anyone else like this, who were so filled with fear and shame and are just now realizing that cross dressing is okay - that if they know this realization would destroy their wives of decades and also know they can keep this so tightly under wraps that she actually will never know, even after death - yeah, the right thing is to not tell.

For those cross dressers getting into relationships now - I think your best bet is to tell when you feel you can intimately trust that partner (and if you can't, why be with that person long term?)

For those cross dressers who realize after years that this didn't go away or that some vague feminine clothing urges have got a lot stronger - you know what? Yes. People DO change. And from what I can tell from listening to stories on this board, that conversation will go a lot better if you have a reason, right then, to tell. "Honey, I never told you about this because I had thought this was some teenage thing I grew out of and then I met you, but I liked to wear panties when I was a teen. Lately, I have been feeling an urge to try it again, and also try on other feminine items of clothing. I felt like a freak and I was ashamed of this when I was a kid, but I looked it up on the Internet and now I realize that there are thousands of other straight, productive, happily married men who do this and I don't feel so alone now. I really needed to tell you so I wasn't hiding this from you."

I think the benefits to telling in this case are:
1) she can never accuse you of lying or hiding, or feel like you are, about your past and the marriage up until then.
2) you ARE being honest about this.
3) if you tell her this before you start putting on clothing (or certain types of clothing like going beyond panties or a bra because I'm pretty sure most guys tried at least one or the other on as a teen - and I have the Polaroid pictures in a box somewhere from a party when I was 15 or 16 to prove that at least 8 or 9 of my male friends did) then you set up for (at worst, if she can't accept) a DADT situation where she can pretend that as an adult male you haven't done that. At best, you'll never have to deal with some weird, granny clothing mixed with a miniskirt and clown makeup situation because she will embrace your girl expression and help it along.

Edit: of course, life is rarely that simple, and YMMV - I just know that being told early means that I am happy with Crystal's girl side, and it lays a foundation for me to be more open to the level of girliness to change in the future if it needs to. I know that it is a possibility, just like someday one of us may be in a car crash, get cancer or get fat. Those (and about a zillion other things) are what I sign up for because I know they may someday happen but being with this person is worth all those risks.

Second edit: any man on here who is justifying his dressing because his wife got fat or got cellulite: THESE THINGS ARE NATURAL PARTS OF AGING. 95% of human females will get cellulite at some point in their lives. It is so common many biological anthropologists list cellulite as a secondary sexual characteristic. A woman is as likely to fully get rid of cellulite as she is likely to get rid of her breasts - both would require invasive surgery. One has a chance of happening due to cancer. The other gets a lot of moral stigma.

[Angela Campbell]

aok so lets say you married a nice woman and after a year or so of marriage she tells you she really doesn't like sex and never did and just had sex with you to get you because she was afraid if she told you that you wouldn't marry her?

She knew about it long before the vows and kept it secret because she did not know or suspected you wouldn't accept it.

For most men this would be a deal breaker. Starting a marriage on a lie is never a good way to begin.

[~Joanne~]

Said this before........... A crossdresser knows he's a crossdresser before he gets married.

Not always. They may think they have a fetish of sorts. For example, Mine started as a pantyhose fetish, then many many years later it moved on to other things and then it all came together and just within the last year I have been coming to terms and learning to accept the fact that yes, I am a CD. The fetish factor, while diminished greatly and still sort of there, is mostly gone. Now, if I got married while it was still just a fetish, how did I know before hand?

This situation is different per girl. Some accept right from the get go and yes, they should certainly come clean before getting married but a lot developed during the marriage and that can be tricky. if we applied the nose job senerio to this, let's say your wife wants one after she gets married, goes and gets one, is this a "I didn't sign up for this"? because maybe you believe that GOD gave her what he wanted her to have and she just altered it. I know of very FEW women that ever ask their husbands opinion or anything along those lines before they do something that they consider "their body". Nor do they ask about the clothes they are going to wear for whatever occasion .

I have read this over and over again since joining the forum, how we need "their" approval for almost everything we do, even non CD related, but do you really get the same respect in return? I know this vary s from woman to woman, person to person but how often do you girls ask for anything in return for being allowed, like a child, to wear something that makes you comfortable or makes you feel complete as a person? after all, a marriage is a compromise right? yet you are the only one making that compromise.

Sorry I went on the soap box, I am not married and I understand each and every relationship is different, each marriage is different, and some communicate better than others. I just wanted to vent a little about this. In the end I strongly believe, if the love is a true love, you wearing what you want to wear shouldn't be a factor, deal breaker, or a contract.

[Beverley Sims]

Those that transition and have not told their spouses before hand have a similar and more serious problem than CDers.
The same goes for liars, cheats, porn lovers, alternate lifestylers, alchoholics, religious bigots, rednecks....... I could go on.
If they have not been honest with their wives beforehand then it can be a deal breaker.
When you get married these problems do not always come to light but the majority work at it and to some extent resolve the issue.
I don't think I would have married my wife if she was sniffing powder of some kind, bank robber or possibly a CDer. :)

[Stephanie47]

This subject has been really beaten to death. It seems from numerous threads and postings over the years I've been on this site, the real issue is the consequences of disclosure. Now, that is not limited to a wife finding out about the non disclosed cross-dressing that existed before marriage, but, also cross-dressing that developed after marital vows were exchanged. Consequences also are evident in a marriage when the initially accepting wife, prior to and after exchange of marital vows, becomes non accepting. Half the marriages in the country end in divorce. I research the issue for briefly. The CDC even looks at the issue? Anyway, I'm not going to try to BS the issue. When I did step away from the site before posting I read an interesting short essay by Anne Vitale. I am not good a linkage so I'll leave it to somebody else. Anyway read:

"Notes on Gender Role Transition" by Anne Vitale

I found the essay quite interesting.

[Diane Maple]

So, it sounds like there are a number of different people on here....

My perspective... On my first date with my to be wife I told her I was Bi. Not sort of Bi, but... really Bi. I told her many many things I liked to do I had just ended a relationship with two bi girls and I made it clear I enjoy many sexual things. She was never and has never really been into too many of the things I enjoy. The cross dressing is something I didn't share with her because I hadn't shared it with anyone. Being married 14 years sexually we have always been okay. Our relationship as friends, loved ones who support one another has always been strong. We have had issues talking with one another off an on like any couple. .... Yes, she felt like she had been lied to because I had not told her sooner. In the end though, she knows this is just another part of me and she loves me and I love her. Looking back and yes, I learned this when we saw someone for a while... people change and if you are married long enough it's like being married to multiple people over the years. For me I feel like I have been married to at least 5 or 6 different women over the years. All have been and are great. They are all also a bit different. I know I have been different at least as many times. So, this part of me being shared... it is just me being me... version 7 or something like that and she loves me. Yes, things are different. Yes, we aren't the same. Yes, it can be hard. In the end though we are friends and lovers I plan on being with her till the end. No matter what she or I do.

[Sheren Kelly]

In the examples from the OP, none really change the identity or social reality of the spouse. Changing genders forces the spouse from a heterosexual relationship into something quite different. When one's gender matches that of the spouse, society can perceive the relationship as effectively homosexual. I can see that for most hetero spouses, that would be a deal breaker.

If a Hetero CD's wife began presenting as a man, would (s)he feel comfortable being perceived as gay?

[Susan.]

I don't generally agree with the premise of the OP. That being said, I gave my wife lots of time to divorce me should she chose. We even waited several years to have kids. But after more than 30 years she divorced me with CDing being her excuse though she knew right away and could have gotten an annulement had she wanted.

[Diane Maple]

I don't generally agree with the premise of the OP. That being said, I gave my wife lots of time to divorce me should she chose. We even waited several years to have kids. But after more than 30 years she divorced me with CDing being her excuse though she knew right away and could have gotten an annulement had she wanted.

This is interesting. So, she knew from the beginning? Then still used it 30 years later. Sorry to here this. :\

[Meghan]

This subject has been really beaten to death. It seems from numerous threads and postings over the years I've been on this site, the real issue is the consequences of disclosure. Now, that is not limited to a wife finding out about the non disclosed cross-dressing that existed before marriage, but, also cross-dressing that developed after marital vows were exchanged. Consequences also are evident in a marriage when the initially accepting wife, prior to and after exchange of marital vows, becomes non accepting. Half the marriages in the country end in divorce. I research the issue for briefly. The CDC even looks at the issue? Anyway, I'm not going to try to BS the issue. When I did step away from the site before posting I read an interesting short essay by Anne Vitale. I am not good a linkage so I'll leave it to somebody else. Anyway read:

"Notes on Gender Role Transition" by Anne Vitale

I found the essay quite interesting.

Stephanie,

Thank you so much for sharing Anne Vitale's writing. It has probably been at least 10 years since I have read them and there is always something new that I don't remember seeing before. One particular tiny little quote really stood out:

"Because a gender identity crisis often comes in the prime of life, this means coping with a series of difficult trade offs. It's a little like surviving a natural disaster."

It sure is.

Meghan

[new2this]

I think with most things its a question of trust and most people (not just gg's) have a problem being lied to. In the beginng of my relationship I did struggle with my position within the relationship when Dannielle was around, was I still a girlfriend? A friend? But we worked through it and I can understand how it can affect someone who has lived certain roles in a relationship for a long period of time then to have their world shook and to suddenly feel very insecure within a relationship they had found their safehaven previously . It's a new kind of relationship for me and accept all sides of my partner but think if he lied to me, hid it and didn't trust me enough to tell me then it would be a deal breaker and it would have nothing to do with Dannielle but that the trust had been broken.

[Veronica27]

I get tired of people writing about their "rights" while totally ignoring their responsibilities. Using the U. S. Declaration of Independence as a good starting point, it points out that all people should have certain inalienable rights, which include life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Liberty does not mean the freedom to do whatever you want, but rather freedom from outside coercion or compulsion, i.e. from government, along with the assumption of responsibility for your actions. Pursuit of happiness does not imply a guarantee of happiness, but rather the freedom to pursue it. Beyond this basis, there are very few natural rights, but most constitutions spell out a few which follow the primary premise, such as freedom of speech, religion, the press etc. Governments do not grant us any rights, because if they had that power, they could also take them away. What they do is pass laws which are designed to protect citizens from various infringements on their life liberty and pursuit of happiness by either government or other citizens. This is necessary because what one person feels is their right is usually an infringement on what somebody else considers to be their right.

Crossdressing is not an inalienable right, nor is hatred of the crossdressing of others a right. Society, through its laws has decreed that it is legal to crossdress. Therefore, any dispute between a husband and wife over the former's crossdressing is up to agreement between the two. Neither has the right to enforce their wishes over the other. This brings us to responsibility. When two people marry, they are assuming the responsibility to care for and look after the needs of their partner. In a loving relationship, it is logical to conclude that a compromise will emerge that allows the self expression of the husband while respecting the feelings of the wife. Just as the crossdresser can cite many reasons why his crossdressing is healthy, necessary and harmless, so too can the wife cite many reasons why this is totally repugnant to her.

By all means, crossdress within the limitations of your own needs, desires and circumstances, but do so bearing in mind your responsibility to acknowledge the feelings and sensitivities of those who may be affected by our actions, be it our spouse, the woman we encounter in the ladies washroom or anyone else we might encounter.

Veronica

[Silentpartner GG SO]

good post Veronica. you final paragraph is right on the money for me.

[flatlander_48]

One point to remember is that when we allow our feminine side to develop, we are changed. I suspect for most of us the changes in our behavior and perceptions are not big shifts, but I do believe they exist. To that extent, we can be different people from who we were when we married. If we thought about it, we could anticipate all of the other suggested changes. We know that there are illnesses, many life altering and some life threatening, by which we can be effected. If you are in the military and in a hot zone, there is the possibility that you could be injured. It is not uncommon for men to lose their hair, etc.

However, crossdressing is something yet again. I don't think it is something that one would necessarily anticipate. It's too far removed from what we would think the realm of possibility to be. The notion that people knew before they were married happens, but it probably isn't universal. I know in my case it wasn't. I married my first wife at 25. I didn't begin to think about the possibility that I might be gay until I was 42. That was indicative of how deep the suppression was. My first experience with a man was at 49. A couple of years later I began to realize that I didn't see myself as mostly homosexual. This was also about the same time that my first wife and I began to sort out our upcoming separation. I didn't start to do a bit of underdressing until I was 54 and by that time, I was in the process of relocating my first wife. Even though there was overlap chronologically, she never knew. However, I am certain if I had crossdressed some years before and told her, she would not have been able to handle it. She would feel that she "did not sign up for that" and I would be hard pressed to hold it against her.

[Heather Daniels]

This may not be relevant, but I feel the need to say it.
I did not sign up for this either. It was the hand that was dealt to me. I've fought it for a very long time and still do.
I was married before the arrival of the internet and thought I was a freak and the only sicko in the world that did it.
I didnt know any better. I also thought it would go away.... again I didnt know any better. If I can keep this from my loved ones, then I think we are all better off. How can I explain something that even I dont understand?

[Eryn]

This thread hits home big time. My wife is in a wheel chair, with muscular distrophy, and later, breast cancer. She knew about Celeste from very early on, when she was healthier. She was mildly supporting, but would not let me go out, and some really girly things pissed her off. As her desease progressed, to the point she needed constant care, she became overwhelmingly accepting, giving me free reign. We do everthing together, me en femme. So... I've often wondered, is this acceptance free will, or the trade off for her constant care?

Perhaps it is more a realization that, in the fullness of life, having a cross-dressing husband isn't so bad a thing. We all come with our warts and some of them are more easily tolerated when the "balance sheet" is closer to completion.


Even though in some cases the CDer thought it would go away or didn't realize it until they were married the above is common.

Some women would not or could not accept this side of their SO even if they knew in advance. It's just the way it is based on their upbringing, religion or values. I think most women go into marriage based on traditional values and can't be forced to accept the Cding.

It seems contradictory that "traditional values" in this case don't seem to include adherence to the traditional wedding vows. Not that long ago, being divorced was a definite black mark on a person in our society. Now divorce is so common that even the devoutly religious use it as a convenient exit when things aren't going their way.


I think the key point you missed is that we crossdressers who come out after a marriage is consummated, have effectively lied about a part of us to our wife! None of your scenarios cover the lying part....


Having cancer, gaining weight, losing a job or a limb... These are not things you know about in advance. For the most part, crossdressing is. They are completely different things.

The issue for most GGs (not all) is the feelings of being lied to, betrayed and duped by their spouses. I mean, this is your best friend who knows everything about you and vice versa. Now all of a sudden there is this whole femme side you knew nothing about? Were you not livable enough to tell? Do you really respect me if you could hide this? How could you have me share everything with you and keep this from me? Do I even know the real you?


Said this before........... A crossdresser knows he's a crossdresser before he gets married. It's unfair on the wife to be if he doesn't tell her.

This topic keeps coming up and I'll keep trying to clarify that many crossdressers do not have a clear concept of what they are before marriage. This was the case with me and after talking to a number of other CDers I don't think that it is all that uncommon.

I remember that I had an inordinate interest in feminine things from an early age. I did not even consider this interest to be crossdressing because I was also, along with most males in their teens and twenties, intensely interested in females. The clothes, the makeup, and the young women were all fascinating and inaccessible and there was no need to distinguish between them. I thought that this is what every young man was feeling. Yes, there were some experiments with donning articles of clothing and applying makeup, but these were given a thick coating of shame and buried deeply since one does not talk of acts that one considers perverse.

Moving on into my early 30s, I managed to find the love of my life. At this point I doubt that I could have accurately defined the term "crossdresser" let alone identified myself as such. I would no more have talked to my future wife about my minor gender exploration than I would have talked to her about the time I did something really dumb with a gallon of chianti. They just weren't that important in my world-view.

So, we're married, life speeds up, careers blossom, children appear, and there isn't a lot of time left for self-exploration. Yes, that "inordinate interest" remained, but there is plenty of other things to worry about and I could always tell myself that I was being a good husband by helping my wife with her shopping, etc.

A couple of decades pass, children head off to college, career is more stable, more time is available for introspection and, most importantly. the Internet brings information to our fingertips. I have more "me time" to think about those feelings that have been bothering me more and more lately, perhaps due to waning hormones. I also have more self-confidence that allows me to consider things that I would have immediately suppressed in the past.

After some research I'm surprised to find that there are thousands of people out there who have had my experience and who aren't shamed by it. I still don't really understand myself well, but I do realize that this is something that I have to share with my wife. I know the hazard in this after reading stories about wives who left decades-old marriages after similar conversations. Still, there is little choice, since the road I was on (depression, etc.) wasn't healthy for our marriage either. We sat down and had "the talk."

I consider myself very lucky. My wife could have taken the easy path, accused me of lying to her through decades of marriage, and washed her hands of me and the entire situation. Instead, she strove to help me understand my own feelings better. We talked about what I might want to do and she encouraged me to explore ideas that I had not dared to entertain before. Things were a bit crazy at first, what with the Pink Fog rolling in, but the situation has smoothed out and our relationship is stronger and much more enjoyable than ever before.

The bottom line is that many latent CDers, even intelligent and educated ones, can be ignorant of crossdressing for most of their adult lives. They can enter into relationships with no realization that they might have the seeds of crossdressing planted within them. It is insulting and hurtful for people to insist that every married CDer entered into marriage on the basis of a lie.

[Mimi]

For those cross dressers who realize after years that this didn't go away or that some vague feminine clothing urges have got a lot stronger - you know what? Yes. People DO change. And from what I can tell from listening to stories on this board, that conversation will go a lot better if you have a reason, right then, to tell. "Honey, I never told you about this because I had thought this was some teenage thing I grew out of and then I met you, but I liked to wear panties when I was a teen. Lately, I have been feeling an urge to try it again, and also try on other feminine items of clothing. I felt like a freak and I was ashamed of this when I was a kid, but I looked it up on the Internet and now I realize that there are thousands of other straight, productive, happily married men who do this and I don't feel so alone now. I really needed to tell you so I wasn't hiding this from you."


Were you listening in on our conversation all the way from Canada? :heehee: Your suggested conversation is spot on. While it came as a surprise to me, it also explained so much of Eryn's unhappiness at the time, and I would vastly prefer a happy cross-dressing spouse than a depressed and angry spouse who suppressed his natural urges. And for the record, I did not feel like I had been lied to.

[Barbara Ella]

Lorileah had an excellent thread on TRUST, and how revealing cross dressing is a real trust buster. It changes the total dynamic of male/female partnership, unlike all the others listed by the OP. When revealed early on, there is not as much inherent trust to be rebuilt. When revealed after many years of building up mutual trust, there is an excessive amount of rebuilding to do, and this can very well be too much for the wife to handle, and she must make a decision.

I agree with Eryn. I did not have a clue until I turned 65, after 41 years of marriage. i came out to my wife almost immediately, so she did not feel a lack of trust, just extreme confusion over what happened to her later years of life with her husband. There is no one size fits all, and each individual must make their own conclusion and action plan.

The key is maintaining trust and rebuilding when it is lost

Barbara

[Diana L]

I agree with what heather said totally. We all have to live with the hand that we are dealt.

Diana

[AlexisRaeMoon]

Well said, Eryn. This describes me to a tee. I never told my wife because I always thought I could "beat it." That is some addiction that could be cured if I tried hard enough. Between that and the shame, "telling" was never an option. We realize later how faulty that thinking is, but it's only because of forums like this that we can learn these things. Yes, in a perfect world, we would all have these conversation before marriage, but some us just aren't that strong. I really and truly believed that some day the desire would just fade away...well, we can see where that ended up!

[Chickhe]

...its all negativity! Nobody can predict how their life will be and nobody should feel guilty about what they did or didn't do... you have to consider the whole picture...you didn't act a certain way because the environment was not supportive... you could say your wife didn't sign up for you winning the lottery either...does that mean you can take it all? ...tell her to stop being a kill joy and go shopping together!

[WifeofWrenchette]

I have to agree with you VS fan. I've said those same things myself. The part that used to get to me was the lying/deceit since he knew beforehand and I did not. I found out through his ex-girlfriend of all people not from him 6 months into the relationship. I've gotten over that part, but am am now dealing with his perceived bi-sexuality. Sometimes it's not just the "cross dressing" aspect, but others things that come with it. If it was a simple case of "cross dressing" I wouldn't have any qualms whatsoever.

[VS Fan]

Wow - this thread took on a life of it's own - I was away from the PC all day yesterday after posting and just managed to read all of your replies. So for that, thanks for the lively discussion and points of view.

I fall into the category of "didn't know about this before I was married"... so that's where my perspective comes from, but I do agree that it's different for someone who knew all their lives and potentially deliberately hid it (but even then, I can understand those who "thought it would go away.")

I guess at the end of the day, we're all *people* and unique in our own ways... so whether a marriage can last through ANYTHING is really up to the two individuals involved, I was just trying to examine the distinction between CD'ing and other things that come up in life that are taxing to a marriage in some way. To open up a little bit more - I think my wife was initially devastated by the "news" but came around very quickly after some research on the web and conversation with me and decided she could live with it. We've had sporadic and short conversations over the past 3 years about it, but nothing as serious as the initial ones. So while I live in a mostly DADT situation, I am not afraid to tell her "don't change the laundry over, I have some stuff in there" and she knows what I mean and is ok with it (no negative outward backlash, only mild amusement.)

Anyway, thanks for listening and mulling this over with me.

VS Fan

[Jessica86]

I know when I first met my wife, I shoved this away because I thought it would just go away. I was 19. I thought I would grow out of it or something. Then, after things became serious between her and I and we talked about kids....it was time. I had a lucky break of having a dream about it, and she was staring at me with the "What is wrong with YOU?" look. Well, it seemed good, and I told her I felt like I needed to after NOT doing it for over two years (longest run ever for me.) I had things, sure, and began to get a few more things. Then, she just told me one night to, and all was fine.

One thing I'm not seeing is that some people might be like me. They might see someone so beautiful and special they feel like they can just give it up for them! I know I did! I did a good job for a while, but it came back. That's when I first started looking for help. I didn't realize I was sane, and didn't know what I was getting into. I do like the quote mentioned earlier. I didn't sign up for this life either, but I'm playing the hand I've been dealt. It may be a deuce seven, but I'm hoping it's suited!

[Leslie Langford]

I think part of the problem is that many women think that our crossdressing is some kind of selfish indulgence that we could simply stop if we really put our minds to it. And for us not to do so is wrongly seen as a slap in the face for them, and a case of us ignoring their pleas of "If you really loved me and saw how much this is hurting me, you would stop." Sadly, it is not as straightforward as that, given that being transgendered is at the core of our being and cannot just be willed away.

This type of demand puts us into a "Sophie's Choice" type of situation, and expanding on that analogy, let's use the example of a man who wants to marry a divorced woman with children. And let's assume further that the man doesn't like her (or any other) children, and demands that as a condition of marriage she abandon them to someone else's care and devote her life fully to him. Is that really a fair and reasonable thing to ask of another person, and would the onus not fall on the intransigent partner in this case to make some kind of accommodation to respect her needs in that regard?

[kimdl93]

In America, about 50% of all marriages end in divorce...75% of second marriages. So, regardless of the reasons, many peoples' relationships come to an end....regardless of the vows. I understand that some women simply can't comprehend, accomodate, accept or embrace a partner who is a CD. For whatever reason, some people are able to and others not. CDing is just like any of the other factors you mentioned....its not a choice nor an option for many of use, but its also not a disease or social pathology. Unfortunately, some women may disagree. Such is life.

[Babeba]

aok so lets say you married a nice woman and after a year or so of marriage she tells you she really doesn't like sex and never did and just had sex with you to get you because she was afraid if she told you that you wouldn't marry her?

She knew about it long before the vows and kept it secret because she did not know or suspected you wouldn't accept it.

For most men this would be a deal breaker. Starting a marriage on a lie is never a good way to begin.

Exactly! I see exactly where you are coming from and I agree that is a good analogy.

Edit:

Mimi, I didn't listen I on your conversation but from talking on here with you and Eryn I understood how a person who was TG could come out to their spouse of decades and have it be as okay as possible. I was definitely thinking of you two when I wrote that!

VS fan, I think from the sounds of it your marriage in regards to CDing is solid. I am sure she appreciates the heads-up, and loves many of the things about you that stem from the same place that makes you want to dress up. It's also very sweet that you don't push her out of her comfort zone with trying to get her to participate. In return, she seems as though she makes sure you have time to get those clothes dirty! :)

[NicoleScott]

any man on here who is justifying his dressing because his wife got fat or got cellulite: THESE THINGS ARE NATURAL PARTS OF AGING.

So I'm gonna eat that birthday cake, and blame the fat on the candles. haha

[Foxglove]

The bottom line is that many latent CDers, even intelligent and educated ones, can be ignorant of crossdressing for most of their adult lives. They can enter into relationships with no realization that they might have the seeds of crossdressing planted within them. It is insulting and hurtful for people to insist that every married CDer entered into marriage on the basis of a lie.

Very good post, Eryn. I'm just quoting this last paragraph because it sums things up for me and quite a few others on this forum. I have to say I do sometimes get tired of hearing the words "deceived", "betrayed", etc., because with a lot of us they're simplistic and wrong.

That said, I have no trouble understanding why CDing could be a deal breaker. A normal heterosexual woman wants a normal heterosexual man, and some can deal with the fact that they haven't got one and some can't. You're made the way you're made. Being honest, I know well that a CDing woman wouldn't be attractive to me in the least, and I'd have to struggle to come to terms with it. Or if I had a good buddy who came out as gay and suggested that we couldn't be friends any more unless we were lovers, that would be a deal breaker.

We're all made the way we're made. And it's up to each of us to determine what our makeup is. (That is not a pun.) If a woman regards CDing as a deal breaker, that I can understand. But let her leave off with the accusations of "lying" and "deceit" and "betrayal" where they're not applicable. There aren't many cispeople who come even close to understanding what we experience, and to write us off as "liars" and "deceitful" sells us short by a lot of miles.

Annabelle

[Gillian Gigs]

I appreciate the comments by both Eryn and Veronica, you both have very valid points. So who didn't figure that their habits would change after they married? I was just like everyone who thought, now I have a wife to play with, I don't need the clothes any more. Guess what, now I had drawers and a closet full of items to try on when I has home alone. Just like it was said, you have kids, build your life and marriage, then 20 years have passed. Did the desires go away...... As the home starts to get more empty, it comes back, in my case with a vengence! That is when I came out to my wife. No running, no divorce talk, just a knowing that I was not going any where and that I still loved her. Did I go off the deep end, no way, we had our compromises, and for the sake of love, I did not push the limits. Today over 15 years later , compromises have changed totally in my favor, to the point of my doing as I choose within the home, but still only within the home setting. I live happily with it and who knows where it may go in the future. All I know is this, "love conquers all", and we both love each other 100 times more today than when we got married. Marriage is an investment, you should be in it for the long haul, and you don't dump your stock, just because there was a down turn in the market place.

[VS Fan]

VS fan, I think from the sounds of it your marriage in regards to CDing is solid. I am sure she appreciates the heads-up, and loves many of the things about you that stem from the same place that makes you want to dress up. It's also very sweet that you don't push her out of her comfort zone with trying to get her to participate. In return, she seems as though she makes sure you have time to get those clothes dirty! :)

Thank you... she is very good about things like the laundry situation, even doesn't mind me having painted toenails as long as the kids don't see... (although my daughter did "catch" me a few weeks ago... I passed it off as just something I did for fun since they left their stuff out... she's 11 so she bought it and never said another word LOL... she even painted my fingernails a couple weeks later during a daddy/daughter night at home which my wife thought was pretty amusing.)

I actually suggested that she join the forum here when I came out to her, but I think she just did enough research to realize that it was "normal" enough and she could deal with it. It's gotten better over time, so I don't believe that she even really thinks about it much at all on a daily basis...

VS Fan

[sometimes_miss]

Well, it's all in the eye of the beholder what 'they didn't sign up for'. For my ex, the crossdressing was the straw that broke the camel's back so she said. My own thoughts are that I didn't sign up to be married to a nasty, blackmailing, vindictive evil bitch. She had lots of flaws that she conveniently ignored while focusing on what she perceived as mine. Life isn't fair. We all have secrets, and only the people who we keep those secrets from can tell us whether those secrets are important to the relationship or not.

[Foxglove]

Well, it's all in the eye of the beholder what 'they didn't sign up for'. For my ex, the crossdressing was the straw that broke the camel's back so she said. My own thoughts are that I didn't sign up to be married to a nasty, blackmailing, vindictive evil bitch. She had lots of flaws that she conveniently ignored while focusing on what she perceived as mine. Life isn't fair. We all have secrets, and only the people who we keep those secrets from can tell us whether those secrets are important to the relationship or not.

I can certainly relate to this, Lexi. When I got married, there were lots of things the wife didn’t tell me, which I might have wanted to know about. She didn’t tell me about all the stuff that, after several years of it, would eventually have me literally screaming with frustration.

Did she deceive me, betray me? I’ve never said so, mainly because I know for a fact that she wasn’t aware herself of the psychological problems that she had then and still has today. I know for a fact that even now she’s not aware of them. So how could she have filled me in on them? The only way she could have done that would have been for her to do some honest self-analysis.

It would have been very good for me, my brother and my sister if our parents had engaged in some honest self-analysis. I think we could have been a fair bit happier than we were.

We transpeople are accused of “lying by omission”, being “deceitful”, “betraying” our spouses. Every bit of it true. But who out there is any different? How many people are into honest self-analysis. From time to time I suggest that there might be benefits in that, and the reaction you get from a lot of people is basically, “Fiddle-dee-dee! Can’t be bothered!” How many people are 100% honest with themselves? I think Socrates and Michel de Montaigne were. Perhaps Ralph Waldo Emerson. I can’t think of any others off the top of my head.

Another thing I don’t like about the accusation of dishonesty levelled at us is that people often refuse to consider where that dishonesty comes from. Let them walk a mile in the shoes that a lot of us walked in when we were young and that probably a lot of young people are still walking in today, they’ll learn pretty quickly where it comes from.

We transpeople don’t grow up in a society that encourages us to be honest. What would my parents have done to me if they had known? They were two people who were strongly convinced of the value of violence against children as a corrective measure. At the age of 4 or 5 I got a serious beating over a pack of gum. What would I have got for TGism? There’s very little I’d put past my dad in particular.

When you’re trans, you learn to lie, you learn to sneak around, you learn to hide—even from yourself. You do it for self-protection. And so for me, it’s quite a slap in the face when people accuse me of dishonesty. Yes, I’m dishonest. What do you expect? Does anybody truly want us to be honest? Fine. Then let’s have no more of this:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?182375-Manager-s-consult.

Or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glrh2JrtFOU&feature=related

Or this:

http://counselingoutfitters.com/Hunter2.htm

That is, if you want people to be honest, remove the penalty for honesty. It’s too easy to accuse people of dishonesty and ignore where that dishonesty comes from.

When transpeople can live the way they want without penalty or prejudice, then they’ll have no reason to be dishonest. I understand both sides of the argument here: a woman doesn’t want to get into a relationship with a CDer without knowing about it beforehand. I understand, and I don’t blame her in the least. But an accusation of “deceit” or “betrayal” is very cheap if she refuses to recognize why a CDer doesn’t tell the whole truth from the beginning. Transpeople will be more honest when society as a whole decides that it wants us to be so.

Annabelle

[TGMarla]

There are a whole bunch of us who grew up with this thing being a real taboo, something we'd disclose to no one, not even a potential spouse. And since many of our spouses grew up at the same time we did, they felt the very same way about it. So many of us married without disclosing our crossdressing to our wives. So in a very real sense, they in fact DID NOT sign up for this.

I am very fortunate and relieved that my wife didn't chuck me to the curb over it all. I do my best to keep it away from her. But it's hard to know what the future brings. And frankly, my situation is changing. I may very soon not have the opportunities to crossdress nearly as often as I can right now. In fact, my opportunities may drop down to almost zero, which is causing me quite a bit of concern.

But I still don't blame my wife for not wanting anything to do with this. I wouldn't like it if she exhibited the same behavior in reverse. So who am I to dictate how she should feel?

[sometimes_miss]

Another thing I don’t like about the accusation of dishonesty levelled at us is that people often refuse to consider where that dishonesty comes from. Let them walk a mile in the shoes that a lot of us walked in when we were young and that probably a lot of young people are still walking in today, they’ll learn pretty quickly where it comes from.
They can't identify with it. Even educated women usually can't accept it, it simply goes too much against what they have learned to define what's appropriately masculine and what's appropriately feminine. My ex was a tomboy. Was into sports, liked to drive my truck instead of a car, wore sneakers/workboots, jeans and t shirt or sweats about 95% of the time. She liked my tool belt so much, she bought one of her own. So I thought she would at least have a clue as to why someone might want to adopt attire designed for the opposite gender. WRONG! Oh, so very wrong. Women reserve the right to wear mens clothes for themselves. They simply cannot understand a guy wanting to dress up like a girl.

[ReineD]

Apart from birth and death, there is nothing more basic and permanent to humanity than gender. It's a fundamental part of who we are and for 95% of the population (heteros), it determines our sexual attraction, which ensures the survival of our species. I know that you're not talking about transition, you're just thinking of the CDing, but CDing messes with someone's perception of gender. Big time.

It's not something that can be compared to the life changing events that happen to some people. Still, some people are more flexible than others and they can accept gender variance, as long as the issue hasn't been complicated by the betrayal of not having been told, as Babs mentioned.

[Foxglove]

Another thing I don’t like about the accusation of dishonesty levelled at us is that people often refuse to consider where that dishonesty comes from. Let them walk a mile in the shoes that a lot of us walked in when we were young and that probably a lot of young people are still walking in today, they’ll learn pretty quickly where it comes from.



They can't identify with it. Even educated women usually can't accept it, it simply goes too much against what they have learned to define what's appropriately masculine and what's appropriately feminine. My ex was a tomboy. Was into sports, liked to drive my truck instead of a car, wore sneakers/workboots, jeans and t shirt or sweats about 95% of the time. She liked my tool belt so much, she bought one of her own. So I thought she would at least have a clue as to why someone might want to adopt attire designed for the opposite gender. WRONG! Oh, so very wrong. Women reserve the right to wear mens clothes for themselves. They simply cannot understand a guy wanting to dress up like a girl.


Apart from birth and death, there is nothing more basic and permanent to humanity than gender. It's a fundamental part of who we are and for 95% of the population (heteros), it determines our sexual attraction, which ensures the survival of our species. I know that you're not talking about transition, you're just thinking of the CDing, but CDing messes with someone's perception of gender. Big time.



Lexi, I take your point, but I think we're talking about two different things here.

You're talking about the difficulty cispeople have in understanding transpeople. You're pointing out that your ex displayed a number of what would be considered masculine traits, yet could not understand your desire to display some feminine traits. You and I can agree on the inconsistency, but that's because we're looking at it from a trans point of view.

Reine's post is correct, I believe. The problem cispeople have with us is that we mess with their perceptions of gender. Big time. Transpeople like you and me--though this certainly isn't true of all transpeople, as we on this forum know well--do identify as female, at least to a certain extent, and that's why cispeople have trouble with us. Not being trans themselves, they don't have the emotional experience of wanting to cross the gender line in that way. So they simply can't understand it.

Now why did your ex fail to understand you? Hard for me to say since I can't get inside her head. But we might speculate that despite all the "masculine" traits she displayed, she still perceived herself as female. In her mind, she'd not crossed a gender line, and so she wasn't equipped to understand someone who did.

TGism is all about feelings, how you perceive yourself--which means that a woman can do things traditionally defined as masculine, yet still perceive herself as female. This means that she's not trans. And society does evolve. Things that used to be perceived as masculine are now perceived as gender neutral. When I was young, virtually all lawyers and doctors were male. Those two professions would have been perceived as masculine. But no more. A woman who becomes a lawyer or doctor isn't perceived as masculine.

Now what your ex is into still strikes us masculine, but there are enough women these days into that sort of thing that a woman can "get away with it." That is, she might be perceived as an unusual woman, or a tomboy, but nonetheless a woman. I agree with you: it seems unfair to us--but the difference is that you and I are perceived as crossing the gender line. In fact, that's the way I perceive myself. That's what makes me trans. There can be a very fine line sometimes between who's perceived as trans and who isn't. Frustrating for us, and yes, unfair, and hopefully some day soon, cispeople will stop caring about who's crossing the gender line and who isn't.

However, this wasn't what I was talking about in my post. I was talking about the accusations of dishonesty, deceit, betrayal that are frequently levelled at us, and I find these particularly frustrating. I understand why cispeople don't understand and don't like us. We're outside their experience. But I do believe they are equipped to understand why we often feel the need to hide our trans tendencies from others, and I think that often they simply don't try hard enough.

Is it really so hard for them to understand? Lexi, I look back on my childhood and youth, and I shudder at the thought of what would have happened to me if my parents had found out that I was trans. I'm not exaggerating here, I'm not trying to be melodramatic. I honestly believe that if they had found out, knowing them as I do, the experience would have left me a psychological wreck. I was scared to death of them as it was. Their finding out that I was trans would simply have been the icing on the cake.

I do believe that cispeople are equipped to understand the penalty that we transpeople sometimes pay for being open and honest about what we are. A lot of us instinctively know that we cannot afford to pay it. So we learn to hide, we learn to be dishonest. And what cisperson has the right to blame us for that? They're the ones who force us into dishonesty. Let them not afterwards blame us for being dishonest. I've never been dishonest out of choice. I instinctively became dishonest because I had a good idea what the price of honesty would have been.

Now I can understand why a woman would be upset when she learns that her husband is trans, and I can understand why she would feel she's been betrayed. And I've never wanted to lock horns with the GG's on this forum over this issue, because there are a lot of really sweet women here, and I understand their hurt and I don't blame them for it and I certainly don't want to sound as if I think it's nothing at all. Because I know well it's not nothing.

I'm quite convinced that we transpeople are often guilty of not trying hard enough to understand women's feelings in this matter. But I do often feel that sometimes they don't try hard enough to understand where this "betrayal" came from. In the heat of the moment, I can understand why a woman would be distraught. But as time goes on and maybe things cool down a bit, if she sees where the "betrayal" came from, she'll see that if we're not honest about ourselves, it wasn't out of choice. Dishonesty was forced on a lot of us. And maybe that will help her feel better--I don't know, maybe it will--because she'll understand that the man she loves and who loves her never willingly hurt her. The world put him in a bad position, and he didn't deal with it properly because he'd never learned how because he didn't have anybody to teach him when he was young. And that doesn't make him a bad person. It makes him a person who's lost in life, and sometimes lost people hurt others, even those they love.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[ReineD]

My ex was a tomboy. Was into sports, liked to drive my truck instead of a car, wore sneakers/workboots, jeans and t shirt or sweats about 95% of the time. She liked my tool belt so much, she bought one of her own. So I thought she would at least have a clue as to why someone might want to adopt attire designed for the opposite gender. WRONG! Oh, so very wrong. Women reserve the right to wear mens clothes for themselves. They simply cannot understand a guy wanting to dress up like a girl.

I need to take exception to this. As unfair as it is (and I agree that it is unfair), women are now culturally allowed to be tomboys. Maybe it will be acceptable for men to be tomgirls in the future, but we're simply not there yet.

Still, women who are tomboys do not try to pass themselves off as men. It's common for girls to play sports. It's common for them to drive a truck. If I have to get some lumber for a project, I'd much rather use a truck than my car. It's more practical. And when I'm working on projects, a tool belt is handy. And unless your wife was wearing clothes purchased in men's stores, getting men's haircuts, and gluing fake hair on her face, she was not crossdressing. Women who wear the clothing appropriate to do the activities they enjoy doing are not CDers. They are instead dressing like independent, capable women, who have learned how to do all the stuff that requires wearing a toolbelt.

Likewise, a man is not crossdressing when he wears an apron while he's making the spaghetti sauce. Nor is he behaving like a woman when he sews a button on his shirt, vacuums, or changes the baby's diaper.

You can't compare a man who presents fully as a woman (makeup, wig, breast forms, on top of the clothes), to a woman who is handy and wears a toolbelt and drives a truck. But, if a man were to present as a man and wear a manskirt, (like women who wear women's jeans and flannel shirts), then you might make a comparison.

[Jamie001]

I need to take exception to this. As unfair as it is (and I agree that it is unfair), women are now culturally allowed to be tomboys. Maybe it will be acceptable for men to be tomgirls in the future, but we're simply not there yet.

Still, women who are tomboys do not try to pass themselves off as men. It's common for girls to play sports. It's common for them to drive a truck. If I have to get some lumber for a project, I'd much rather use a truck than my car. It's more practical. And when I'm working on projects, a tool belt is handy. And unless your wife was wearing clothes purchased in men's stores, getting men's haircuts, and gluing fake hair on her face, she was not crossdressing. Women who wear the clothing appropriate to do the activities they enjoy doing are not CDers. They are instead dressing like independent, capable women, who have learned how to do all the stuff that requires wearing a toolbelt.

Likewise, a man is not crossdressing when he wears an apron while he's making the spaghetti sauce. Nor is he behaving like a woman when he sews a button on his shirt, vacuums, or changes the baby's diaper.

You can't compare a man who presents fully as a woman (makeup, wig, breast forms, on top of the clothes), to a woman who is handy and wears a toolbelt and drives a truck. But, if a man were to present as a man and wear a manskirt, (like women who wear women's jeans and flannel shirts), then you might make a comparison.

Reine,

I agree with you regarding the fact that women who incorporate men's items do not attach fake beards in order to deceive folks into thinking that they are a man. They are simply women wearing men's clothing. That is the different between women and most of the crossdressers on this site and most crossdressers do not realize or accept this fact. A lot of these women wear men's clothing (shoes, shirts, jeans, boxers underwear) purchased in the men's section rather than men's style clothing that is made for women. I would love to see Girlfriend's clothing that is made for men? Since we have boyfriend's clothing for women, why don't we have girlfriend's clothing for men?

I believe that my level of crossdressing is the same as what the aforementioned women are doing. I incorporate women's shoes, capri pants, a purse, and painted nails into my presentation. I never try to deceive anyone and present as a woman. Everyone can see that I'm a guy wearing feminine items. I sincerely believe that the path to acceptance of men wearing feminine clothing is to do it as a man because there is no deception involved.

[sometimes_miss]

I need to take exception to this. As unfair as it is (and I agree that it is unfair), women are now culturally allowed to be tomboys. Maybe it will be acceptable for men to be tomgirls in the future, but we're simply not there yet.

Still, women who are tomboys do not try to pass themselves off as men. It's common for girls to play sports. It's common for them to drive a truck. If I have to get some lumber for a project, I'd much rather use a truck than my car. It's more practical. And when I'm working on projects, a tool belt is handy. And unless your wife was wearing clothes purchased in men's stores, getting men's haircuts, and gluing fake hair on her face, she was not crossdressing. Women who wear the clothing appropriate to do the activities they enjoy doing are not CDers. They are instead dressing like independent, capable women, who have learned how to do all the stuff that requires wearing a toolbelt.

Likewise, a man is not crossdressing when he wears an apron while he's making the spaghetti sauce. Nor is he behaving like a woman when he sews a button on his shirt, vacuums, or changes the baby's diaper.

You can't compare a man who presents fully as a woman (makeup, wig, breast forms, on top of the clothes), to a woman who is handy and wears a toolbelt and drives a truck. But, if a man were to present as a man and wear a manskirt, (like women who wear women's jeans and flannel shirts), then you might make a comparison.
See Reine, this becomes a very gray area indeed. I don't try to pass myself off as female(no vocal changes, no body movement adaptations, etc.); and there are probably more guys than you might think that just wear the clothes simply because it feels like something we're supposed to do (for whatever reasons). After all, women were adopting men's clothing to wear long before they were making jeans and flannel shirts cut for the female figure. It really wasn't that long ago when pants on a woman was a rarity. And clothing 'appropriate for the activity' is always a personal choice. Women don't pass themselves off as men / Well sometimes the end result of the style of clothes results in the same thing; i've seen lots of women over the years adopt masculine behaviors and outfits when trying to fit into traditionally male 'bastions' of workplaces and society.