And he's having a latté

[Frances]

I have mentioned a few times that I used to play music semi-professionally and worked in the music business. When I transitioned, I walked away from this world. There was the ackward phase when I looked too in-between, but I also avoided a lot of people and places because I did not want to explain myself over and over again (I was also afraid of being ridiculed). I figured I would become a woman, not have anything to do with music, work as a translator (my new carreer), meet some guy, and be happy.

I became increasingly unhappy with my life and my carreer (I even had a burnout and am currently out of work), and decided to try to reconnect with old friends and get involved in music again.

I spent the afternoon two days ago with an old friend of mine with whom I have played, worked and lived. We were very close. We met at a coffee shop and ordered beverages. The barista was handing out our coffees and my friend said, in reference to me, "HE" is having the latté. He did correct himself right away and said "SHE," and the barista did not really notice anything. I thought about leaving right away, but decided to stay. We had a nice time together, but the experience made me think a lot. He also said that the fact that I was still the same person made it harder. Why would I be someone else?


Transition is about making visible to the outer world what is inside us. In other words, acquiring a body that communicates our actual gender so that the world communicates back the right way. Our gender is already there, it's the sex that gets changed.

To my quote above, I would like to add that being trans-identified is being male-identified, or whatever the starting gender is.

I ran into an old acquaintance today as well. He told me a few times that I could play live again, that my transition did not matter. He said: "After all, who cares if you want to wear a dress, it's a free country," which indicates that he sees transition as an affectation, not as the manifestation of something essential.

The hurt is that they obviously do not see me a woman and probably never will. Even worse, they communicate back "male" at me! I pass very well and never have a "communication problem" with men and women who did not know me before. So how can I get involved in something that makes me happy, if I will get slapped in the face constantly, you know?

Even when the physical transformation is easy (like mine was to a certain extent), transition sucks!

[celtic.blue.eyes]

Hi Frances,
The good part is that it certainly seems that your old friends are accepting you just as they always have. He did correct the mistake right away which indicates some respect for the new you. Just as you had some adjustments to make in your transitioning, they will have to make some adjustments, and it may take a little time. Give them a little time to adapt - it's not a situation they are accustomed to, so a few mistakes are to be expected. The most important thing is if they are accepting, and not rejecting you, enjoy their friendship and enlighten them. They just need to be educated, and in a lady-like manner.

For example, if you had a pet for 10 years, and you decided to change it's name, how many times would you mistakenly call it or refer to it by it's old name? I'm not accusing, but just posing a question that only you can answer - Is it possible that maybe you are being a little overly sensitive? People are not perfect.

Best of luck!

[kellycan27]

Frances
Our motivation and need for doing what we do is not often abundantly clear to those around us. People with no clue have nothing really to fall back on except for the social constructs that they have lived with for years. And you are right.. transition can suck!

[sandra-leigh]

Several months ago, I had dinner with a local FTM whom I knew from before he started to transition, including having previously had conversations in which we talked about the middle road and about how he did not (at that time) want to transition.

During dinner I was doing fine, but at one point when I hurriedly referred to him to the waitress, calling the waitress back, I referred to him as "she", something like, "And she'd like some tea as well". I felt bad immediately, and immediately apologized. I still feel bad about it. I don't even know how it slipped out, as I certainly had male pronouns in my consciousness during dinner, but the moment that I spoke without thinking about the pronoun, out it came :sad:

I do not know many FTM personally; I mostly deal with MTF TG and TS, and MTF crossdressers, and for those people I'm pretty good about using female pronouns.

It is the case that he identified as still somewhat female when I had last seen him -- but on the other hand I have been in touch with him via FB long enough to get used to the idea.

:sigh: I can't undo what slipped out.

[Badtranny]

Celtic, your advice misses the mark by a mile. I don't know what your experience has been, but what Frances is describing has very little to do with the pronouns and everything to do with the way old friends relate to her. It's extremely unpleasant to live a life where everybody you meet accepts without question or hesitation that you are the person you feel you are and then you meet an old friend for coffee and he acts like there's been no change at all. Unless you have been through this you couldn't possibly understand how emotionally difficult it is to transition while being surrounded by faces from your past.

I don't blame people for not getting it, I even understand why they struggle with it, but that doesn't make it any easier to deal with.

[Frances]

Celtic, your advice misses the mark by a mile. I don't know what your experience has been, but what Frances is describing has very little to do with the pronouns and everything to do with the way old friends relate to her. It's extremely unpleasant to live a life where everybody you meet accepts without question or hesitation that you are the person you feel you are and then you meet an old friend for coffee and he acts like there's been no change at all. Unless you have been through this you couldn't possibly understand how emotionally difficult it is to transition while being surrounded by faces from your past.

I don't blame people for not getting it, I even understand why they struggle with it, but that doesn't make it any easier to deal with.

Yes, that's what I am driving at. And worse, I will run into these people all the time if I start getting involved in music again. They are not being mean or anything, but they keep reminding me of having been male. After all this trouble, including SRS and legal identity change, it sucks. I don't want men to say I can wear whatever I want, I want them to consider me as a sexual partner or at least as a female, not as an eccentric guy who became a woman.

[Stephenie S]

This is a hard situation. I have found that you have to have a pretty thick skin sometimes. Recently (three days ago) I had a co-worker insistently refer to me as HE in front of a patient. I found it surprisingly easy to ignore the co-worker and inform my patient of my correct gender. I do have a fairly firm grasp on my own gender identity. There have been times in the not too distant past when this situation would have devastated me. The more you have to deal with this, the easier it becomes. (WWJD?) What would a natal female say in such a situation? "Excuse me? Did you just call me a GUY?"

Dealing with people from your past can always be problematic however.

S

[Frances]

This is a hard situation. I have found that you have to have a pretty thick skin sometimes. Recently (three days ago) I had a co-worker insistently refer to me as HE in front of a patient. I found it surprisingly easy to ignore the co-worker and inform my patient of my correct gender. I do have a fairly firm grasp on my own gender identity. There have been times in the not too distant past when this situation would have devastated me. The more you have to deal with this, the easier it becomes. (WWJD?) What would a natal female say in such a situation? "Excuse me? Did you just call me a GUY?"

Dealing with people from your past can always be problematic however.

S

Thanks for sharing that.

It's not that my gender identity is shaken or anything. It's more like I may think of the guys in my life as sexual partners and even fantasize about them. They are the men I have been the closest to in my life, and feel comfortable around them. I see some of these encounters almost as dates, and they communicate male back to me, or look at me like I was severely burned in the face. So far, only one person from my musical past talked to me and looked at me like I was a desireable female. This was not in public though. Since the word is spreading fast in the musical community, I am having a hard imagining a guy having the courage to date me now that would be at all involved in it.

[CharleneT]

I live in a fairly small town and have stayed in the same business since prior to my transition. I have had very similar experiences. What I have found is that it takes a while for those who were friends to get the change clear in their heads. Often months of semi-regular contact. My efforts have something to do with it, but most of the process is in their hands/heads. The how long or if ever question cannot be answered until they just do not "get it". I have a couple of customers who still cannot see me as a woman yet. It does hurt, even though I expect it ... arrrggg.... The good news is that most of the people that I interact with in biz or social situations are now pretty much seeing me as a woman. I believe that the acceptance and switch in how they see you gets better over time because as those around them "make the switch" a person who isn't accepting finds themselves alone in how they see/interact with you. I'm not explaining this very well... tired....

As for men who knew you before now seeing you as a potential mate, that's a hard one. I can't say that I have experienced that either, why certain guys are not attracted to me is something I don't really dwell on. I'm not dating too much, two jobs fills most of my time (unfortunately). Whether any from my past will pursue a relationship .... I doubt it, but life surprises you sometimes with lovers and attractions.

[Frances]

As for men who knew you before now seeing you as a potential mate, that's a hard one. I can't say that I have experienced that either, why certain guys are not attracted to me is something I don't really dwell on. I'm not dating too much, two jobs fills most of my time (unfortunately). Whether any from my past will pursue a relationship .... I doubt it, but life surprises you sometimes with lovers and attractions.

I don't mean hitting on me. There is way that straight men look at me, a way of them being nice to me, or sublty signaling not a specific interest, but interest in a general way, as if it were a social convention or an automatic biological imperative.

Like I said, I walked away from everything that was familiar and interesting to me, including friends and acquaintances. I am generally stealth, and know that people do not clock me. My internalized transphobia pretty much goes away in my day to day life, as long as I am not around people who remind me of my transness. And the music scene will be populated by people who will. It's not that they are rude or unaccepting or intolerant, it's that I can tell by the way they interact with me that they do not see me as a woman. I don't get the look and the niceness. Instead, I get a shoulder grab and a "come back anytime buddy."

Since I was always a woman, even when my friends or old acquaintances thought I was a guy, I always saw these guys from the female perspective. Or course, it was not the same for them. So, the question is: How can I get involved in something that I am passionate about if I will be reminded constantly that I am less than (or worse... a guy)?

[Jorja]

Do you enjoy playing music semi-professionally and working in the music business? Is that something you want to do today? I suggest, dealing with this fear you have and enjoy doing what you like to do. It is no different than the fear you had the very first time you stepped out the door as Frances. Let your music and the new and improved you speak for you. If they can't get it, remind them often.

[Aprilrain]

I get it, you go to all this trouble and people STILL don't see you for you. Some of the nicest people will flat out refuse to accept that you are a woman. They will treat you well enough and to them, im sure, they think they are being totally accepting but to not be seen as the woman you are just plain hurts. I get this with my family all the time and it just makes me resent them and want to avoid them.

[Stephenie S]

Thanks for sharing that.

It's not that my gender identity is shaken or anything. It's more like I may think of the guys in my life as sexual partners and even fantasize about them. They are the men I have been the closest to in my life, and feel comfortable around them. I see some of these encounters almost as dates, and they communicate male back to me, or look at me like I was severely burned in the face. So far, only one person from my musical past talked to me and looked at me like I was a desireable female. This was not in public though. Since the word is spreading fast in the musical community, I am having a hard imagining a guy having the courage to date me now that would be at all involved in it.

Well Frances. I think you are an incredibly desirable woman.

If I was a guy from your past in the music industry I would ask you out. And probably try to get in your pants too. But too bad. I not a guy and not a musician either, (grin).

S

[Frances]

Thank you Steph.

@April: That's it in a nutshell. I have that issue with my family as well, but it's not as bad. I can avoid my family. My parents and grand-parents have been gone for 20 years and I have no siblings. If aunts and uncles have a problem, I don't have to see them.

[kimdl93]

Some people just have a more difficult time adjusting to change. Obviously, we see you as Frances, and as a very decidedly feminine and pretty woman. They are still seeing something that isn't there. Perhaps they always will. But take heart from the fact tthat you pass very well with strangers - they don't have the same filters and see you for who you really are.

If it bothers you - my first suggestion would be to let your old ffriends know that you are a woman - not a man pretending to be a woman - and that its deeply hurtful to be treated as someone that you are not. If that doesn't work, perhaps you can begin to re-enter your muscial avocation through other avenues and make a new set of friends along the way.

[CharleneT]

. . .
Since I was always a woman, even when my friends or old acquaintances thought I was a guy, I always saw these guys from the female perspective. Or course, it was not the same for them. So, the question is: How can I get involved in something that I am passionate about if I will be reminded constantly that I am less than (or worse... a guy)?

My apologies for getting it wrong. Given your last question, and the fact that apparently none of your former mates can get past the change, I would say that what you need to do is move. I know that is harsh, but it seems that in the translation world you were having trouble with those who knew you before, and the music biz seems worse ? Go somewhere they do not know you. Sure, in music you'll have to start over, and maybe not mention much of your past ... but I think your skill will shine and maybe you can work yourself into that cities scene ??

[Saffron]

I'm in a similar situation, in my country there's only 5-7 companies in my current professional career.

I know the day I go into full transition everybody will know. I can't go to another company cause I will find always someone I worked before, or that new company will know once they ask about my CV to my old one.

It's very hard and I'm trying to not to think much about it, at least until I get to that point.

In the end, life is survival.

[AllieSF]

"So, the question is: How can I get involved in something that I am passionate about if I will be reminded constantly that I am less than (or worse... a guy)?
"

You just need to develop that thicker skin that everyone always talks about. If they are still your friends and good acquaintances, like you as a human being and have no problem being around you, then give them a big break and try to not let that "It sucks" feeling ruin your moments and times with them. If they are not trying hard enough, then have those private talks with them at the appropriate moment when the "talk" will get through their thick skulls and maybe have some positive effect on them. It seems to me that you are thinking about going away from something that you are passionate about because of these uncomfortable situations. I believe that would be a very big mistake for you. Face the heat and enjoy the results as you get back into doing that which you love to do.

I am very aware of the correctness, need, desire and everything else to address someone properly. However, being the senior human being that I am, I make mistakes sometimes and, if I catch it, I then try to correct it immediately, with an apology if I can. I refuse to consider that I am being inconsiderate to anyone. I am trying my best, but whatever happens to one's brain when reacting to something in a split second, I have no control over. That is why I recommend giving those that deserve the break a break when they inadvertently error. I would think that they are human too. Instead of thinking about running away from the moment, maybe trying to think how to better educate or assist the other person to understand how important it is that you be addressed and treated correctly will give better results.

[Laurie Ann]

France's,

I have always enjoyed your candor in discussing the harrowing experiences we all must encounter as we transition. I feel for you sweetie but I know you will adapt and overcome anything put before you. Your avatar shows me a beautiful woman as such any man would be lucky to have you.

[melissaK]

Thank you for this thread Frances. I learned something new from it, or at least you've given me insight to see some things differently.

It seems all the pre-transition angst about losing friends or keeping friends is a bit over simplified.

[STACY B]

Don't worry about them ,,,They will not get it if it don't concern them ,,,EVER ,,, No stake in it ,,No interest in it ,,, Just come here an let me give you a HUG ,,,,,,,,, TIGHTER,,,,,, There ya go ,,,, Now don't ya feel better ? Me too ,,,

[Saffron]

It seems all the pre-transition angst about losing friends or keeping friends is a bit over simplified.

It's not only about losing friends, but they realizing your true genre and treating you properly.

Like Frances said, it's hard to be around a person you like or have feelings as a woman when that person treats you like a man.

Imagine the feeling of "I love you like a brother ", but worse.

[Kathryn Martin]

I ran into an old acquaintance today as well. He told me a few times that I could play live again, that my transition did not matter. He said: "After all, who cares if you want to wear a dress, it's a free country," which indicates that he sees transition as an affectation, not as the manifestation of something essential.

The hurt is that they obviously do not see me a woman and probably never will. Even worse, they communicate back "male" at me! I pass very well and never have a "communication problem" with men and women who did not know me before. So how can I get involved in something that makes me happy, if I will get slapped in the face constantly, you know?I think it is important to explain to him that you are not "wearing a dress" but in fact are a woman. It is a crucial information which he did not receive after you vanished from the scene.

He will always have trouble to see you as a woman. But you can make it clear to him that mis-gendering you is unacceptable. Too often we accept this because we don't want to cause a scene or avoid possible confrontation in doing so we become victims. In that moment when he said "he" you should have and in future you must at least say "excuse me?" and quite loud. Most have enough tact to apologize. Some will not which tells you who your friends are.

It is hard to do this but it is absolutely necessary. Don't let people victimize you.

[sandra-leigh]

In that moment when he said "he" you should have and in future you must at least say "excuse me?" and quite loud.

He corrected himself right away. Is it still necessary to embarrass him?

[Frances]

He corrected himself right away. Is it still necessary to embarrass him?

Kathryn mixed up the two stories and felt very protective of me. She and I are very good friends.

There was no need to embarrass anyone. He felt embarrassed enough. I could have left, but decided to stay. I am taking stock of some of my old relationship, and may discontinue some of them. I am very fond of the latté guy and will invest more into the relationship malgré the pronoun faux pas.

[Inna]

I wish I could be oblivious to the subject at hand, but no, I have ONE as well!!! A friend, and a good man, my business buddy with whom I have spent long hours discussing from bottom lines to our dismay with our wifes, lol.

Now, every time I visit his office, we have a great time talking however, I am still HE in his verbal expression. I correct him every time and we laugh, so it isn't really bothersome, or at least it seems that way, but YES, it is bothersome to me, as he has no reason to address me as HE other then inability to let go the memory of a long gone pall.

And so I have withheld from my visits simply because I just don't want to hear him address me that way, in the sense it is kind of weird that he would still do such while looking at a naturally looking female?!?!?!?!

What is more interesting, is the question as to what mechanism is responsible for this behavior, as it doesn't feel intentional, yet when I showed up for the first time in 2 years in his office he approached me and said: "may I help you maam" I smiled, and said "Hi Alex, do you remember me?" he was simply oblivious to who I was and I kept him guessing for a while, I was simply amused by the process. Him being a ladies man, I got him to the point that when I told him that I have a very serious message, he froze stiff in his chair, and I could tell he was afraid that he might be a father, lol.
Anyway, after my reveal, he started to call me HE, so it certainly is a puzzle of a mechanism at work. Is it his denial of what happened with me?????

[Saffron]

In some cases it could simply be a habit, e.g. I find it difficult to address myself as female when talking with people I know for so long, but I've no problem doing it with the rest.

[Frances]

In some cases it could simply be a habit, e.g. I find it difficult to address myself as female when talking with people I know for so long, but I've no problem doing it with the rest.

It's not really a question of them and their habits. It's about me and how I feel, and having my illusions shattered. I have transitioned completely, SRS and legal papers and everything. I pass no problem, so do I want to feel that hurt? Is it worth it? Is it just internalized transphobia?

Even when everything is done, there is still plenty to learn, assess and deal with. Transition does not end at SRS, unfortunately.

[Kathryn Martin]

When I transitioned and these faux pas happened, I told the persons that they had two years to get it right. I correct it every time, even judges.

Times up in 6.5 months.


In some cases it could simply be a habit, e.g. I find it difficult to address myself as female when talking with people I know for so long, but I've no problem doing it with the rest.

[Stephenie S]

I wish to say something here about Frances, please. I know Frances. I am proud and honored to be her friend. Even though she uses the words herself, Frances does not "pass". Frances IS.

Frances is a woman. A complete and total woman. Frances does not "pass" as a woman. Frances is a woman.

Stephie

[Bree-asaurus]

I wish to say something here about Frances, please. I know Frances. I am proud and honored to be her friend. Even though she uses the words herself, Frances does not "pass". Frances IS.

Frances is a woman. A complete and total woman. Frances does not "pass" as a woman. Frances is a woman.

Stephie

Here here. I skyped with Frances and she is definitely not trans. She is a woman.

[Stephenie S]

Apropos of this thread and apropos of this topic, I had an interesting incident happen at work his evening.

One of my patients in the hospital (a man) told me that one of the LNAs (nurse's aids) had told him that I was a lesbian. His comment to me was, "I don't care what you are, I like you anyway."

After a short discussion with my patient about how I did not hide my sexual preference, I went right to the nursing supervisor and lodged a formal complaint. Sexual preferences and sexual identity are totally inappropriate subjects for discussion on the job in any hospital. Nearly every LNA on duty this evening came to me later on and told me they were sorry that this had happened. Obviously, the supervisor had acted quickly.

Was this a confusion of terms? Did my patient really mean something else? Remember, it was a scant three days ago that an LNA had insisted on referring to me as HE to the patient we were caring for together. It think there is quite possibly some connection here.

In any case it was refreshing to experience such a quick response to my complaint.

S

[Badtranny]

Here here. I skyped with Frances and she is definitely not trans. She is a woman.

A woman who has a LOT of "toys". Seriously, she has a lot of toys. ...What?

[Bree-asaurus]

A woman who has a LOT of "toys". Seriously, she has a lot of toys. ...What?

I have a lot of toys too. I sold some of my biggest to people who don't mind my used toys. But they were used when I bought them anyway!

[Inna]

Huh, what??? Toys, do you mean.......ehhhhh..........do you???? By the way on the subject, I am gettin a camera for my S...e :)

[Nigella]

Nope cos that is a banned topic :lol:

[Frances]

Before I get bombarded with PM's, we are talking about the robot from Lost in Space, Gumby and a sexy beardless black GI Joe from the 60's who is not equiped to please me or Barbie.

[Jorja]

Before I get bombarded with PM's, we are talking about the robot from Lost in Space, Gumby and a sexy beardless black GI Joe from the 60's who is not equiped to please me or Barbie.

Oh, is that what they are calling them these days?

[cyndigurl45]

Frances, have you expressed your sexual feelings towards your friends?

[Frances]

Frances, have you expressed your sexual feelings towards your friends?

Like I said earlier, the dynamic that is missing, I get with most men who did not know me before. I don't necessarily want these guys to hit on me, but to be nice to me, to look at me like other guys do.

In the case of the latté guy, I have explained to him that I did not become a woman on February 21st, 2011, the day of my surgery. I was a girl 20, 30, 40 years ago as well. They could not see it, but I viewed them through this prism. And since I tend to be attracted to people I feel comfortable with, they were the actors in my fantasies. I did tell latté guy that he had been present in my mind on such occasions.

I don't have sexual feelings towards them, but I have on occasion pictured them in my mind while... you know. Now that I am visible woman, I hope they will "see me" (as in Avatar) like new men in my life "see me" (even the ones that find out that I am trans). I don't expect them to want me, but the hurt comes when I realize they don't even see the girl in front of them.

I don't want people to adapt to me. I do want respect, but what good is it if they use correct pronouns and the correct name while using he and my old name when I am not around? It is I who has to make a decision. I can be stealth as much as I want as long as I am not around people who knew me, but that means staying away from the things I am most passionate about.

[Anna Lorree]

Frances,

I'm very sorry you are now confronted by this. To be honest, it is one of the things I fear about transitioning. I work in a career field where it is basically impossible to just move to a new area and get a job. Everything is regimented, and at the level I function, my resume will have to follow me. To make matters worse, I have no other field that I can step into at anything close to my current pay and benefit level. As such, I am kind of stuck. This is part of the reason I am back in school, but even this is a long-term solution to a mid-term problem. I can sympathize, and someday I will probably be able to relate.

Anna

[cyndigurl45]

I am in know way trying to over simplify things or make light of the situation and please, please don't take this the wrong way, not knowing my personality has it's disadvantages.

I would invite them over one at a time over a bottle of wine or if there beer guys a beer, starting a conversation about nothing, strip down completely naked and ask what do you see? do you see anything male here? but like I said that's what I would do......

[Anna Lorree]

I am in know way trying to over simplify things or make light of the situation and please, please don't take this the wrong way, not knowing my personality has it's disadvantages.

I would invite them over one at a time over a bottle of wine or if there beer guys a beer, starting a conversation about nothing, strip down completely naked and ask what do you see? do you see anything male here? but like I said that's what I would do......

BWAHAhahahahahahaha!!!!!! Wow!:heehee::daydreaming::D:devil:

[Jorja]

I am in know way trying to over simplify things or make light of the situation and please, please don't take this the wrong way, not knowing my personality has it's disadvantages.

I would invite them over one at a time over a bottle of wine or if there beer guys a beer, starting a conversation about nothing, strip down completely naked and ask what do you see? do you see anything male here? but like I said that's what I would do......

I guess that is one way of getting their attention.

[sandra-leigh]

I don't want people to adapt to me. I do want respect, but what good is it if they use correct pronouns and the correct name while using he and my old name when I am not around?

I would suggest that perhaps even that's not quite it.

My FTM friend, it isn't so difficult for me to use male pronouns in conversation or email to other people, as in those situations I have those extra couple of seconds for an additional layer of mental processing to step in and adjust the pronoun, sometimes consciously and sometimes before just before that. But when I'm thinking to myself, talking to myself, then I have problems, as in some ways my mental model of him has not adjusted. Even when I see a very recent picture of him, complete with a bit of a beard, my mind first says "Mismatch!" and only then "No, that's who they are now." Even as I type this, my thought-formation keeps inserting "she" and then another part of my mind is playing Wack-a-mole and hammering down with a "No, it's 'He'!"

Using correct pronouns with you in person, and with other people when you are not present, is respectful, but if I have understood what you are saying about "seeing you" as a woman, you are hoping that their internal mental models will adjust so that you are internally considered female even before any "censoring".

[Frances]

I would suggest that perhaps even that's not quite it.

Using correct pronouns with you in person, and with other people when you are not present, is respectful, but if I have understood what you are saying about "seeing you" as a woman, you are hoping that their internal mental models will adjust so that you are internally considered female even before any "censoring".

I am pretty sure I said the exact same thing.

I have noticed a lot of posts concentrate on "them" and what they should or should not do in respect to me and my identity, and their thoughts. These posts are missing the point. I am talking about my feelings, my subjectivity, and what I need to do for myself in the face of a life situation, post-transition. A lot of questions have been asked and with every answer comes a little more interpretation of the problem from various people.

Here it is again:

Say you transitioned completely. You got the vagina. The birth certificate, the drivers's licence, the diplomas, etc., and everything else has been changed. You live stealth most of the time because the size of your city makes it possible (Montreal is the size of Boston). You gave up on aspects of your life where you were well known, but find yourself miserable for having done so, and you miss it. Going back to it means encountering people who knew you before and people who may not know that you have transitioned.

Since you see yourself as a woman and never dwell on your gender, you are surprised when people make it very obvious that they think you are not a woman, and it hurts big time, especially if you expect the regular male-female dynamic where sex is always on the table somewhat.

Do you keep on avoiding these people and not do what you like? Do you endure being treated as a guy? Do you worry about half a room knowing and the half not? Do you wonder if any of them will have the balls of steel required to date you while knowing that all the other guys think you are a guy?

[cyndigurl45]

In all seriousness you have to be happy, perhaps the reason why you had to become a woman on the outside as well, I am a very optimistic kinda girl so when faced with the half the room question knowing that half the room knows I'm a woman is like saying the glass is half full, the other half in very short order (by my actions) will know that I am a woman. I had a close friend tell me once surround yourself with like minded people, you can't tell me that those few close minded "friends" are the only people in the industry Look at Kim Petra?? is it..... Soon you will find new people, people that know the woman you are and the music you play.

[Debb]

If I may, I'd like to add my two cents.

Frances, please do not avoid those who you considered friends. Give them a fair shake .. you may have to give them a couple years of adjustment time ... if you think it's worth it.

I personally have so few friends that I would tend to think it's worth it.

For instance, there's this friend of mine, "Jackie" -- I knew her before and after her transition. We weren't great friends, but we worked together. I must say that pre-transition, I had no idea.

When I first met her, post-transition, I mistakenly called her "John" one time. I was mortified; here I was, dressed as a woman, putting her on the same plane of existence when I knew she was completely transitioned. Although I am sure it hurt, she forgave me quickly, and kept on being a friend. It was a huge boon to me, to be forgiven for that blunder, and I took it quite seriously, and made a serious effort to not let that happen again. It has taken time, but I have grown up enough now that I can see Jackie for the woman she's always been, and I can't tell you how much that means to me.

She enlarged my world by simply forgiving my slip-up, and we moved on.

Not saying it's not difficult; not saying it's not worth it sometimes. It surely was worth it to me, though.

[Saffron]

Frances, I wish I had an answer for all that questions. I'm thinking in moving to another country once I full transition. As I said I'm in a similar situation in my career, and I don't want to change my profession.

It really sucks.

Wish you all the best, and sorry for not having anything better to say.

[ReineD]

Your friend does think of you as Frances now (as opposed to your old male name). His trouble is that he is having to rewrite his memory bank since at the current time, he still has more personal memories of you from before, than recent memories that date post-transition, if you haven't spent a lot of time with him. It's just a question of time and exposure, before your friend builds a new database of new memories of you as Frances. :p

I guarantee you that when this happens, it will not occur to him to refer to you as "he".

It's like getting used to a new house, (if you'll pardon the poor analogy). We move in, we know where all the rooms are from the onset, but it still seems strange and not like home for a few weeks. And then before you know it, it feels like home. The memories of the old house have dimmed. Not only that, but after a period of time when we go back to our old houses, THEY feel strange and not home for us any more.

You need to spend a lot of time with your friend and you'll see, it will all be OK.

:hugs:

[AllieSF]

Do you keep on avoiding these people and not do what you like? Do you endure being treated as a guy? Do you worry about half a room knowing and the half not? Do you wonder if any of them will have the balls of steel required to date you while knowing that all the other guys think you are a guy?
""

1. You do not keep avoiding those people. That to me is running away from what you must face in life. Also see No. 2 below if someone is extremely dense.

2. You do not have to endure being treated as a guy. But, you should be ready for a lot of really slow learners. If someone intentionally disrespects who you are now, tell them to get out of your life, or you just leave them out of it.

3. You do not worry about half the room or the full room. You just do your thing and let your talents, character and personality speak for you. I think that over the long run it would be easier to expect that everyone in the room knows your past history, that way there will never be any surprises.

4. You should not worry about whether they have balls of steel or real flesh and blood. They will date you if they want to. I may be misunderstanding what you have written so far here, but I get a feeling that you want more than just acceptance from your old colleagues and acquaintances. Love doesn't work that way. It is almost just like a woman, extremely fickle when it comes to logic. If it is meant to happen, then it will. You cannot make it happen.

You have come so far and endured so much. However, that doesn't mean all transitioning is over. I think maybe it will be over for you when these issues become non-issues for you. That doesn't mean that everyone will be on their best behavior. To me it means that you don't really care and it doesn't matter anymore to you because you are completely comfortable with yourself being yourself everywhere and can take the worst and the best all in your natural stride. I always say hope for the best while expecting the worst. That may make it easier for you. Good luck.

[abigailf]

If transitioning was easy, everyone would do it. You are among some of the strongest people. Most (if not all) non-trans people could never deal with this crap.

People are going to perceive you in whatever way they want, you can only take solace in the fact that you are presenting the way you need to. You can not change the things you do not control, so stop trying. Instead, change yourself and don't let stuff like that get to you. I know it is tough, but you changed this much, one more step wont kill you.

How does that serenity prayer go:

{God} grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.




To my quote above, I would like to add that being trans-identified is being male-identified, or whatever the starting gender is.


I don't believe trans-identified is {original gender}-identified. I think it is just plain trans-identified. Be happy, be proud, you are transgender.

As one of my colleagues used to advise me from time to time "You just need to get past this."

[Bree-asaurus]

I don't believe trans-identified is {original gender}-identified. I think it is just plain trans-identified. Be happy, be proud, you are transgender.

As one of my colleagues used to advise me from time to time "You just need to get past this."

I'm not trans-identified. I'm trans, but I'm a woman second... a human first.

I'm not happy or proud about the cruddy hand I've been given, but it has made me a stronger person.

I'm not proud of being trans... I just deal with it.

[Frances]

Reine, Allie, Abigail: Thank you for your responses.

I am starting to think, however, that this question has a very different meaning and emotional charge depending on where someone is at in their transition. I am not worried about what people are thinking and whether or not they will change their mind-set. This is not about them. This is about me.

I will try to make it even more succint:

The following is not hypothetical. It is my reality.

I am stealth, which means that I have all the priviliges of cis-gendered people. No one knows about my transsexual past unless I tell them. For all intents and purposes, I was born female. Keeping this status requires avoiding some people and places.

Is it a mistake to give that up?

Renée Richards wrote a second autobiography to address this very point. Her conclusion was NO. I would really like the opinion of post-transitional women and men especially (having had srs or not).

[Aprilrain]

the question becomes do you want to be a woman or whatever it is that people who know nothing about transsexualism think of us as.

[Kathryn Martin]

Frances, as you know I transitioned in place. This has meant that essentially I cannot be stealth. All of my former colleagues, clients and friends are my present colleagues, clients and friends. Apart from that I am stealth. New clients colleagues and people I meet do not become aware of me as a woman with a transsexual history unless I disclose it. Over the last year or so, I have tested the water and have found that my clients, colleagues and friends do not tattle on me and leave it up to me to tell or not.

My issues are with people not being disciplined enough to control their own speech, meaning I still get called him and Martin when they do not pay attention, as in the middle of a sentence, referring to me to a third party to the conversation etc.

As with you, it is not the new ones that are the problem. If it turns out that people will not do me the courtesy to control what they say, then I will avoid them in the future or break off the relationship. We transition because we must, both physically but also to receive the privileges and protections of our gender which were not available before transition because our bodies belie our gender. For me living a "male" life was stressful, difficult and taxed my strength and essence to the breaking point. For me this besides my physical incongruence was the hardest. It means that you can never relax into who you are, ever. To be placed into a position where aside from physical transformation you are not permitted to just be yourself without worry about being outed is untenable.

So where does leave it in answer to your question? I chose a path and I am following it. And the world will accommodate me or world be damned. They will have to get over it or live their life bereft of my presence in it.




Reine, Allie, Abigail: Thank you for your responses.

I am starting to think, however, that this question has a very different meaning and emotional charge depending on where someone is at in their transition. I am not worried about what people are thinking and whether or not they will change their mind-set. This is not about them. This is about me.

I will try to make it even more succint:

The following is not hypothetical. It is my reality.

I am stealth, which means that I have all the priviliges of cis-gendered people. No one knows about my transsexual past unless I tell them. For all intents and purposes, I was born female. Keeping this status requires avoiding some people and places.

Is it a mistake to give that up?

Renée Richards wrote a second autobiography to address this very point. Her conclusion was NO. I would really like the opinion of post-transitional women and men especially (having had srs or not).

[Badtranny]

I would really like the opinion of post-transitional women

Like Kathryn I also transitioned in place so the stealth environment you describe is just a fantasy for me. I've made several comments while transitioning about not caring if people know and being a proud tranny and all that but I cannot honestly say that I would NOT be deep stealth if that option was available. It isn't and it won't be, so I deal with it.

I can tell you that I wouldn't avoid something I loved to do just because so many knew me before, but that perspective is colored by my reality. If I were to experience true stealth, I can't say that I would want to give that up, but I don't know. Every now and then I do daydream a bit about changing jobs so I can work someplace where they never knew my old name at least.

To stealth or not to stealth, it's a tough question and I'm kinda thankful that it's one problem I won't have to deal with. ;-)

[kellycan27]

Count me in as another who transitioned in the work place. I was there for so long that I became a non event for most. When we moved to California only a few people ( whom I'd gone to college and am still friends with) knew. Add a husband, a couple of kids and I am pretty stealthy. Not many pay much attention to a woman pushing a stroller or grocery shopping with a couple of rug rats in tow, or a couple playing with their kids on the beach. I quit my full time job to work part time from home and be a stay at home mom. As for myself i don't really care who knows, but I do have concerns that if the news got out it may have an effect on my husbands career. ( He's a doctor). We have been here for close to 3 years now and...so far so good. I do miss my friends and co-workers in Nevada, but I am close ( 50 minutes by air) so I can visit when I want. I loved living in Nevada, but there were just to many that knew my history. Getting out was probably the best thing that i could have done.

[AllieSF]

Thanks for the reply Frances. I think that I do understand that it is all about you. But as others have said and how I think, is that if you want to remain stealth then you have to give up those people and activities, sometimes including employment, that already know you and part or all of your history. If you want to give them up to reach your goal of total stealth, that is your decision and neither I nor anyone else can say that it is good or bad. We can share our experiences and opinions, but that is all. If you want to remain in your previous area of employment and passion, music, then maybe a physical change in location would help you find the stealth that you seek.

"Is it a mistake to give that up?"

It is only a mistake for you if your decision does not bring you the peace and happiness that you are seeking. If you continually long for that which you leave behind, then to me that is a type of unhappiness if it drives you to question your earlier decision. The good thing about decisions is that they can be changed. So, try to live the way you want, if it does not work out the way that you would like, make another decision. Good luck.

[Frances]

Thanks for the reply Frances. I think that I do understand that it is all about you. But as others have said and how I think, is that if you want to remain stealth then you have to give up those people and activities, sometimes including employment, that already know you and part or all of your history. If you want to give them up to reach your goal of total stealth, that is your decision and neither I nor anyone else can say that it is good or bad. We can share our experiences and opinions, but that is all. If you want to remain in your previous area of employment and passion, music, then maybe a physical change in location would help you find the stealth that you seek.

"Is it a mistake to give that up?"

It is only a mistake for you if your decision does not bring you the peace and happiness that you are seeking. If you continually long for that which you leave behind, then to me that is a type of unhappiness if it drives you to question your earlier decision. The good thing about decisions is that they can be changed. So, try to live the way you want, if it does not work out the way that you would like, make another decision. Good luck.

It's the exact opposite. I am stealth now, and contemplating un-stealthing. I am not seeking stealth. I am considering giving it up.

[ReineD]

It's the exact opposite. I am stealth now, and contemplating un-stealthing. I am not seeking stealth. I am considering giving it up.

I know that you said you'd like the opinions of post-transitioned women, and certainly I can't address your feelings about being addressed as "he" since obviously I haven't walked your path. But, I can offer a perspective from the point of view of an onlooker to someone who has transitioned. I'm putting myself in your friend's shoes, which I can do.

I mentioned earlier about having to replace old memories with the new, and had a poor attempt at an analogy about moving into new house. The point was that I believe the people in your life who knew you before, are more flexible than you give them credit. But, it just takes time and exposure to the new you, if you've avoided the people who knew you from before. I know people who have transitioned and I can tell you that I no longer see them as male. How can I, when they look like women, act like women, and live as women? But, like I said it did take time for my older memories to dim and for the new post-transition memories to build, and I think this is natural. The knowledge of every aspect of our past lives whether or not it has to do with a person we know who has transitioned, is informed by our memory banks. Even though we see change every day in all aspects of our lives and we accept the change, we cannot completely erase all our memories on demand. This process takes time. But, memories do dim, and we do redefine things in order to conform to our new realities. This is what makes it possible for us to move into our redefined futures.

Also, it's not an occasional slip, using "he" in the presence of a stranger, that will unlock your past to the stranger. If I had been that Starbuck's employee and had heard your friend refer to you as a "he" with you as you are, and fully evident in front of me, I would have briefly thought your friend had misspoken and would not have even given it further thought. You know, like calling someone by a wrong name, occasionally (the way I do with my kids ... I'll sometimes use a sibling's name).

I don't know what you meant when you said you are thinking about giving up, if you now plan to tell every new person you meet that you have transitioned, but I just want to encourage you to not do this. It's not my business to tell you how to lead your life, but I would only do this if I planned on being a trans-activist and becoming a poster child for the cause.

[Frances]

I don't know what you meant when you said you are thinking about giving up, if you now plan to tell every new person you meet that you have transitioned, but I just want to encourage you to not do this. It's not my business to tell you how to lead your life, but I would only do this if I planned on being a trans-activist and becoming a poster child for the cause.

I meant giving up being stealth and putting myself in situations where I may be outted. I did not mean writing a book or becoming a trans-activist. A lot of people know that I transitioned and they mostly play in bands and work in the music industry. Somehow, I am not explaining my dilemma adequately. I am not implying anything other than what I am writing.

I am wondering about giving the comfort of being perceived as cis-gendered to re-enter a world and reacquaint myself with people who will know that I am trans and may or may not see me as a woman. This is about feeling like a trans person all over again, like during transition (and sometimes get called he), to play guitars, to go see guitars in music stores and to hang out with musicians.

Imagine this scenario: You went to jail for something pretty bad. You have a new life in which no ones knows this. You get treated like everyone else. Would you move back to a city where everyone knows you went to jail and for what reason, knowing that some may not want you around?

Being called he during transition is pretty bad, but it's almost expected. When you are post-transition and live stealth for the most part, it's devestating (at least to me). The reason for this is that I think everyone sees me as I see myself. I know the new people in my life do. I then put myself in situations where I try to reacquaint myself with other people and get hurt. Should I put myself in harm's way willingly? Do I want to be that tranny guitar player? Remember that I have intense internalized transphobia. The reality may not be as bad as I envision it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The reality is not as bad as you envision...if you quietly go about your business, and meet old friends along the way, you will have to deal with a new thing in your life...that new thing is the bad feelings around being "he'd" and called by your own name...
The problem is you won't really be able to know until you try it, and maybe even more so that it is hard to put a tangible value on feelings...but that's what you must do to make a good decision for yourself...

I've mentioned to you that for me it happens alot because my daily interactions include people that have always known me....usually its ok, sometimes it gets really hurtful to me on the inside..but then i think to myself about all the positives..

I think you would be pleasantly surprised most of the time if some of your relationships are aware of your past...but there is no doubt it will create some discomfort for you and it may be a situation where a new stress for you becomes the scenarios where you have a dual life around trying to keep your new friends and colleagues that enjoy a totally cisgender lifestyle away from your music friends or old buddies... i feel a strange disconnect on days when i spend my time with people that know me only as Kaitlyn, and then go back home to be dad...i just live with it because the value i ascribe to my kids is greater than anything.. I beat gender dysphoria, i kept my kids...everything else is gravy

I did give up most of my old pals, but i still enjoy the time i spend with old friends even though they don't always internally feel that i am a woman...

One nice option you have is to dip your toe into one of those music or record shops...and see how it feels...if you are already not going because of this, you could go and if you hate it, just go back to your current plan A...folks are not going to make conscious outing attempts, and you can eliminate some of the wondering and get back to the wonderful place where you realize that you've transitioned, you are living as a woman, and there is not one thing anybody can ever do about it!!!!




also i know one factor in my transition that causes me suffering and i think impacted some of my decisions (for the negative) is my own internalized transphobia.. i have beaten it down greatly, but there is still a part of me that hates me for being me..it was very bad prior to transition and i think i left the workplace partly because of this... today it impacts me because when i feel a spark with a person (ok the two times i felt it!!) I immediately shied away because someday he will "find out" and "hate me"...i realize that's not a healthy assumption, and i have very little doubt that your own transphobia is causing you some of this angst..

[Frances]

Folks are not going to make conscious outing attempts, and you can eliminate some of the wondering and get back to the wonderful

I had some equipment to sell, and went back to one of those music stores where I used to go. (The owner had seen me in various stages of transition and even right before full-time, when I looked odd.) I went in a little while ago, post-transition. I thought I looked good and felt alright about myself. There was a gentlemen trying a guitar. The owner asked if I knew him. I said that I had met him before (he plays with recording artists Stephen Barry Blues Band). The store owner calls him over and introduces us. The guy looks at me with googly eyes, and I am all happy to meet him. The store owner says to the man: "Do you recognize Caroline? You may have met her in a different form. You see... Caroline used to be..." While the store owner was saying these things, I was cuting in with a soft voice, pleading with him to stop, saying things like: "please don't do this... please stop... you are making me feel like a circus attraction..." I did not want the dynamic between the guitar player and I to change. I know full well that the store owner may tell everyone about me after I leave his store, but I did not like going through it in real time. I felt horrible and left quickly in tears before he could out me in front of me.

I stayed away for a long time, but have recently started going back. He is a little nicer to me and compliments once in a while (he is starting to "see me"). The best way I could describe it is having to go through transition and the ackwardness of it all over again, until people get used to me and "forget" about my male past like other people did years ago.

[Kathryn Martin]

also i know one factor in my transition that causes me suffering and i think impacted some of my decisions (for the negative) is my own internalized transphobia.. i have beaten it down greatly, but there is still a part of me that hates me for being me..it was very bad prior to transition and i think i left the workplace partly because of this... today it impacts me because when i feel a spark with a person (ok the two times i felt it!!) I immediately shied away because someday he will "find out" and "hate me"...i realize that's not a healthy assumption, and i have very little doubt that your own transphobia is causing you some of this angst..

I think what you are describing is not transphobia at all. You have no hate for persons that are gender variant or transsexual at all. What you hate is being you, for being struck with this disability, and the reality of never being able to relax, as I had mentioned above into your self. I think we are all afraid that one day he will find out in some way or another and the uncertainty that this brings in a much more fundamental way to the beginning of any relationship not only with "him". The cry in the night of our own solitude is this: why we were struck with our affliction and the devastating consequences it bring to so many areas of our lives, and especially the intimate ones, such as a loving relationship with a partner, ability to bear children, to have a body that can nurture as well as a soul.

I lost a child during my wife's pregnancy because her health was so bad that we lost the child. Recently I wrote to a friend: "that I could nothing about it, the feeling that I should be the one who should have carried the child (because I was healthy and well) but being such an impossible freak was and is with me every day of my life. To this day it is one of the most deeply moving events of my life."

While these are the burdens we carry, I am also deeply grateful for the life that I have lived. I have come to understand that these matters are my unique biographical challenges, even though they are common to many of us. In understanding this however, I embrace these challenges and have made them into opportunities. In the same way that I have refused to accommodate my un-accomodating world, I refuse to cast aside these opportunities for fear of the pain they will invariably bring. I am the mistress of my own domain.

[Bree-asaurus]

I had some equipment to sell, and went back to one of those music stores where I used to go. (The owner had seen me in various stages of transition and even right before full-time, when I looked odd.) I went in a little while ago, post-transition. I thought I looked good and felt alright about myself. There was a gentlemen trying a guitar. The owner asked if I knew him. I said that I had met him before (he plays with recording artists Stephen Barry Blues Band). The store owner calls him over and introduces us. The guy looks at me with googly eyes, and I am all happy to meet him. The store owner says to the man: "Do you recognize Caroline? You may have met her in a different form. You see... Caroline used to be..." While the store owner was saying these things, I was cuting in with a soft voice, pleading with him to stop, saying things like: "please don't do this... please stop... you are making me feel like a circus attraction..." I did not want the dynamic between the guitar player and I to change. I know full well that the store owner may tell everyone about me after I leave his store, but I did not like going through it in real time. I felt horrible and left quickly in tears before he could out me in front of me.

I stayed away for a long time, but have recently started going back. He is a little nicer to me and compliments once in a while (he is starting to "see me"). The best way I could describe it is having to go through transition and the ackwardness of it all over again, until people get used to me and "forget" about my male past like other people did years ago.

That sucks Frances :(

I really hate it that people feel the need to explain to others that I was a guy. I know my mom and a good friend of mine do it a lot. They don't mean any harm by it, but they just don't realize that I don't want to be known as Bree, the tranny. But whatever... can't have everything my way :P

It's kind of funny with my mom. She loves talking to people and when I go places with her, she'll introduce me to random people, like the checkout lady at a store: "This is my daughter, we're having a girls day out", etc. It gets awkward when she slips up and says "He's taking me shopping. This is my son, I mean daughter." Thanks ma... :rolleyes:

[Badtranny]

It's kind of funny with my mom. She loves talking to people and when I go places with her, she'll introduce me to random people, like the checkout lady at a store: "This is my daughter, we're having a girls day out", etc. It gets awkward when she slips up and says "He's taking me shopping. This is my son, I mean daughter." Thanks ma... :rolleyes:

Oh jeez, my mom is the same way. I don't see her very often (she's in Bakersfield) but I was down there earlier this year BEFORE my FFS and she introduced me to her friends as "my tranny son".

I am NOT joking.

[Saffron]

I had some equipment to sell, and went back to one of those music stores where I used to go. (The owner had seen me in various stages of transition and even right before full-time, when I looked odd.) I went in a little while ago, post-transition. I thought I looked good and felt alright about myself. There was a gentlemen trying a guitar. The owner asked if I knew him. I said that I had met him before (he plays with recording artists Stephen Barry Blues Band). The store owner calls him over and introduces us. The guy looks at me with googly eyes, and I am all happy to meet him. The store owner says to the man: "Do you recognize Caroline? You may have met her in a different form. You see... Caroline used to be..." While the store owner was saying these things, I was cuting in with a soft voice, pleading with him to stop, saying things like: "please don't do this... please stop... you are making me feel like a circus attraction..." I did not want the dynamic between the guitar player and I to change. I know full well that the store owner may tell everyone about me after I leave his store, but I did not like going through it in real time. I felt horrible and left quickly in tears before he could out me in front of me.

What a jerk :angry:

I had a GG girlfriend that sometimes did jokes about being TS, maybe you can get away in this situations by simply joking, like: "yeah, once I was a 6"4' male... Well I got better". Looking like a GG everybody will think it's a joke.

[Frances]

Oh jeez, my mom is the same way. I don't see her very often (she's in Bakersfield) but I was down there earlier this year BEFORE my FFS and she introduced me to her friends as "my tranny son".

I am NOT joking.

Wow! Since my parent and grand-parents have been dead for over 20 years and not having any brothers and sisters, there is no one I have to see. I can avoid everyone that ever knew me if I want to. But the pull of music is very strong.


What a jerk :angry:

I had a GG girlfriend that sometimes did jokes about being TS, maybe you can get away in this situations by simply joking, like: "yeah, once I was a 6"4' male... Well I got better". Looking like a GG everybody will think it's a joke.

I went through all of that once (transitioning in front of people), and I will have to go through it all over again years after the fact I guess.

This may sound crass, but I honestly think that most men that knew me would not care if I had bigger breasts.

[Saffron]

This may sound crass, but I honestly think that most men that knew me would not care if I had bigger breasts.

It's not crass, it's the plain truth with most men.

You remembered me an ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-9lgEecaoM

It's in spanish but it's pretty clear...

[abigailf]

I'm not trans-identified. I'm trans, but I'm a woman second... a human first.

Amen to that.



... "Do you recognize Caroline? You may have met her in a different form. You see... Caroline used to be..." While the store owner was saying these things, I was cuting in with a soft voice, pleading with him to stop, saying things like: "please don't do this... please stop... you are making me feel like a circus attraction..."...

That does suck and it has happened to me with some of my dearest friends. I wont go into the details now but I sent an email a few days later to all of them saying that "nobody should feel the need to out me but me."

The next time I will say that in real time and to anyone including the CEO of our company if she did it to me. I was just flustered at the time and a bit ticked off to think straight.

The he/she stuff is annoying as well, but I equate it to a mosquito bite. They are annoying at first but the irritation fades and if I get too many at any one time I just go inside and avoid them. If I get too many he's, I just walk away to be alone or with people that don't know me.

The thing is about being stealth, it means you deny an essential part of your past. In the past you denied who you really were for the longest time. Now that you figured it out you are going back to denying, but this time denying who you had been. Some may call it avoidance, but the difference it subtle.

I probably just don't get it because I come from a big family and I would never want to leave behind those things I love. Stealth as someone had said is just a fantasy for me.

Since I don't get it I will have to take your word for it that being stealth is a necessity for you. That being said, couldn't you just start those things you love within a new circle of people?

[ReineD]

The store owner says to the man: "Do you recognize Caroline? You may have met her in a different form. You see... Caroline used to be..." While the store owner was saying these things, I was cuting in with a soft voice, pleading with him to stop, saying things like: "please don't do this... please stop... you are making me feel like a circus attraction..." I did not want the dynamic between the guitar player and I to change. I know full well that the store owner may tell everyone about me after I leave his store, but I did not like going through it in real time. I felt horrible and left quickly in tears before he could out me in front of me.

This makes me angry.

Caro, you need to develop a killer instinct against the ignorant and stubborn people who insist on bringing up the past, with the added benefit of adding a story to cause sensationalism. Damn, I would have stopped the store owner dead in his tracks said in an authoritative voice, "I am Caro and I would thank you to respect this. My affairs are not yours to tell for your personal enjoyment." :Angry3:

I think (or at least I hope), there are very few people who are as ignorant as this store owner jerk. In this particular instance, the bystander might have guessed the rest, or he might have questioned and found out later, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that he would have respected you for standing up for yourself.

[Badtranny]

This makes me angry.

RD, I really doubt that the jerk in question had any intention of being so jerky. People are fascinated by us and they have no idea how emotionally damaging being TS can be. Nobody does. Sensitive intelligent people (like you) can sympathize and try real hard to understand, but there are some things that MUST be experienced before there can be any hope of understanding. Being even mildly attracted to a guy who immediately writes you off because of your past is painful and flirting with a guy who eventually says, "oh I was just having some fun, there is no way you and I would ever get together, that's never gonna happen", can be kinda rough.

I don't blame people for not understanding, or for not ignoring who I used to be, they can't help how they feel anymore than I can but that doesn't take away any of the hurt.

Growing up and spending a good chunk of your life hiding from yourself definitely leaves a mark and the transition is alternately wonderful and horrible. This is a hell of a thing.

[Anna Lorree]

Growing up and spending a good chunk of your life hiding from yourself definitely leaves a mark and the transition is alternately wonderful and horrible. This is a hell of a thing.

I can certainly agree with that! I may not have transitioned yet, nor have I had to worry about stealth as a woman, but I have lived my entire life deep stealth as a guy. A fair piece of my dysphoria is worrying about being "outed" by feminine gestures and mannerisms peeking through. It sucks that we have to worry about this both pre and post transition.

Anna

[Stephenie S]

"I really do not think Frances is having second thoughts at all. Perhaps you misunderstand her completely."

This was in answer to a post that has since been deleted.

Stephie

[Stephenie S]

"The thing is about being stealth, it means you deny an essential part of your past. In the past you denied who you really were for the longest time. Now that you figured it out you are going back to denying, but this time denying who you had been. Some may call it avoidance, but the difference it subtle."

I hear this sentiment a lot on this forum. I think it speaks from inexperience.

Do you really think that those who go through ALL the pain, expense, and heartbreak of transition do so to become "trannies"? I think not. They do so to become WOMEN! Holding on to your past means holding on to the fact that you were once a man. On the surface, that seems OK. But I can assure you that once someone knows you were once a man, they will NEVER look at you as a woman, EVER!

Just what do you expect from transition? If you transition to become a tranny, then OK. But transition to become a woman means withholding your past from general knowledge. Women just were NOT ever men in the eyes of most of the population. I am sorry, but this is fact.

S

[Frances]

Here's a little update.

As I mentioned in another post, I ran into an old friend (Tony) a music store last Saturday, and we went for coffee. During our conversation, he told me that the guy working in the music store (Jeff) recognized me and said something along the lines of "I have not seen him in a long time. He is a good player. I wonder what he has been doing." My friend responded that "he was a she now." It should have been pretty obvious, though, with boobs, make-up and all.

I decided to go back there today, to talk to Jeff. Since he now knows, might as well talk about it. I went, but he was not working. Tony was there though. He was talking to another salesman whom I did not know. I did not want to bother them and waited for the conversation to be over before approaching Tony. Once they were done, I thought Tony come and talk to me. Instead, he said "ok, bye now" and practically ran away with a scared expression on his face. Remember that he was the one that said my transition did not matter and that I should go to music stores and play again.

I left the music floor of the store feeling like John Merrick and dejected, but all the men I saw on the way out were giving me their best smiles and bedroom eyes, especially the ones in the forties.

I don't get it. Am I attractive or ugly? Does the music scene not want me around? With all their eye-liner and nail polish, music guys are very macho and homophobic.

I will now get drunk and cry.

[kimdl93]

It's their problem, Frances, not yours. Seriously...you're a lovely woman. If some past life haunts these fellows then let them be damned to spend eternity there. You have moved on.

[Frances]

It's their problem, Frances, not yours. Seriously...you're a lovely woman. If some past life haunts these fellows then let them be damned to spend eternity there. You have moved on.

Thank you for the compliment. The whole point of this thread, however, is a discussion about going back. I had moved on, but am now thinking of going back to a world that seems very uncomfortable with my presence.

[Badtranny]

Holding on to your past means holding on to the fact that you were once a man. On the surface, that seems OK. But I can assure you that once someone knows you were once a man, they will NEVER look at you as a woman, EVER!

This may be true, but some of us don't have the option of stealth. My past is my present. I'm just prettier now.


I don't get it. Am I attractive or ugly?

Girl, if I wasn't strictly dickly I would be all over you like honey on a bee's foot.

[Saffron]

I think my signature pretty much sums it all up.

The only way to know if you old colleagues and friends can understand it is to try it and give them some time. Prejudices can be broken.

[Aprilrain]

After a while, if you hang out around them, people who knew you before your transition will get used to you, some will talk to you some won't but if they knew you before chances are they will never see you the way you want to be seen. Can you handle that?

[Frances]

Girl, if I wasn't strictly dickly I would be all over you like honey on a bee's foot.

I find beautiful women with penises quite hot, by the way.

[Kathryn Martin]

I think that some of the guys you knew in the past may be attracted to you and get weirded out when they contemplate that feeling. You are very attractive and like many attractive women in this world that does not necessarily translate into finding love and relationship. Seeking a relationship with someone who knew you before no matter how attracted they might be to you is freighted with a lot of problems unless there is total acceptance of your status as a woman on every level.

[Beth-Lock]

Sorry about your upsetting experience Frances.

[kimdl93]

Thank you for the compliment. The whole point of this thread, however, is a discussion about going back. I had moved on, but am now thinking of going back to a world that seems very uncomfortable with my presence.

Going back to music doesn't mean you have to go back to the same crowd, does it...maybe it does ...I don't know. But I wouldn't want to put up with their attitudes. If that's the only thing going back offers, then by all means go elsewhere.

[Stephenie S]

I find beautiful women with penises quite hot, by the way.

OH, Frances!!! You naughty, naughty girl. Go say 10 Hail Marys and hope that magic man sitting on a cloud in the sky didn't hear you.

[Badtranny]

I find beautiful women with penises quite hot, by the way.

Oh jeez, do you have to tell EVERYBODY about my little secret? ;-)

[Kerstin]

I don't necessarily want these guys to hit on me, but to be nice to me, to look at me like other guys do.

With particular reference to the underlined part, I think you're expecting too much of them. If they knew you from before, then there's always going to be a disconnect between what they remember and what they see. After a while of being involved in the trans community you forget just how freaky it is to non trans people to see a man become a woman. It's still very much a "wow WTF?" subject for so many people. Sure, they'll learn to use the right pronouns etc and say how accepting they are, but the male/female dynamic will not be the same.

It sucks, but if you want to stay around these people you're going to have to accept that some of them will see you as trans and not a woman, purely because they know you from before. It's unrealistic to expect them to keep your secret for you. Your past is what it is. If you're not comfortable with people knowing your past then you're going to have to choose friends who don't know it, because otherwise it'll always be there, waiting in the background to bite you in the ass.

[Frances]

With particular reference to the underlined part, I think you're expecting too much of them. If they knew you from before, then there's always going to be a disconnect between what they remember and what they see. After a while of being involved in the trans community you forget just how freaky it is to non trans people to see a man become a woman. It's still very much a "wow WTF?" subject for so many people. Sure, they'll learn to use the right pronouns etc and say how accepting they are, but the male/female dynamic will not be the same.

It sucks, but if you want to stay around these people you're going to have to accept that some of them will see you as trans and not a woman, purely because they know you from before. It's unrealistic to expect them to keep your secret for you. Your past is what it is. If you're not comfortable with people knowing your past then you're going to have to choose friends who don't know it, because otherwise it'll always be there, waiting in the background to bite you in the ass.

Thank you for your response Kerstin. Like I said a few times in the thread, people ask questions and from my responses spring new interpretations of the main point. While everything you wrote is valid and useful, it is nothing new to me. I have transitioned. I have lived all of this. I did choose friends who did not know. I was stealth and living as woman knowing that no one knew my past. This thread seems to have gone once in a while to this idea that I don't know what transitioning entails, and have unrealistic expectations of people's reation to my transition. I have lived all of it already. I transitioned on the job and without moving from my neighbourhood. I eventually moved and left my job, however, and started again with new friends.

The point of the thread is not what others are going through, but what I am putting myself through, and whether or not it's worth it.

[Bree-asaurus]

The point of the thread is not what others are going through, but what I am putting myself through, and whether or not it's worth it.

It is worth it. You transitioned because you had to. Now that you've been able to overcome a lot of what has plagued you, you forget what it was like before. You remember the good parts or the easy parts of how things were before. Remember, you chose the hell of transition because the hell of not transitioning would have been worse.

Life still sucks... but at least now it sucks less. Remember that.

[CharleneT]

You don't really know why Tony had that look and took off. It could be anything, or it could be you.... give it another shot. Of course, that may end up hurting a lot - or not.

[Kerstin]

The point of the thread is not what others are going through, but what I am putting myself through, and whether or not it's worth it.

If music is what you love doing, then don't let other people's perceptions of you stop you from doing it. I totally understand why people go stealth and why they don't want to be seen as trans, but it comes at a price. You went through so much to get where you are now. Is going back to the old life a price worth paying? Only you can know that.

[Frances]

It is worth it. You transitioned because you had to. Now that you've been able to overcome a lot of what has plagued you, you forget what it was like before. You remember the good parts or the easy parts of how things were before. Remember, you chose the hell of transition because the hell of not transitioning would have been worse.

Life still sucks... but at least now it sucks less. Remember that.

Your response sounds like you think I am regretting transition or having second thoughts. I meant putting myself through the pain or being seen as trans all over again and having to explain what I have done all over again, when I did not need to anymore. This thread is about making life suck a little more... on purpose.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I think you know my feelings...i think its worth it... you can always "go back" to avoiding the music scene especially if it gets to rough

..my mantra is always quality of life...how can you improve your quality of life

there may be a "cosmic" benefit to never dealing with your past, but its hard to pin that down, and you will always have the issue of running into people or having it cloud decisions ...and its especially tough when you compare things you love and feel passion for...

does spending time indulging your passion, and spending time in places that feel special to you outweight the negative feelings of being reminded about your transsexuality

i would speculate that you are always reminded about your transsexuality, and that these recent record store moments are more like symbols of being reminded and maybe you can consider that this is really your own internal issue that you are better off dealing with now...in other words, the internalized transphobia that neither one of us has really fully conquered...

its funny because we are both half way there..

in your case, you have a fullsome and meaningful female role in life...your femaleness is unquestioned and this is a wonderful thing...your internal feelings are safe and sound... but these times you touch your past bring negative feelings up and they are really really difficult feelings...it induces shame basically... to me shame is the worst...

for me, i am surrounded by people that know "him"...it is a constant part of my life...i am used to it...i have no guilty or shameful feelings around this...i feel incredible pride that i helped my friends and family navigate through this and they mostly supported me..
i hardly ever enjoy time as someone that is not known as a him at some point..and that raises an issue i deal with..

a good example is yesterday...i went to a stereophile event as a guest...it was 50 folks and i was one of 3 women there!!! you can imagine it was a pretty crazy thing...i was surrounded and my friend told me afterwards that he was THANKED more than once for bringing a woman to the party...at the end, it took me a half hour to leave as a half dozen guys got last minute courage to talk to me... it was wonderful... part of me was floating on air...the other part of me?? "OMG if they only knew!!! they would hate me!!"
i had to consciously fight the feeling... i don't have that feeling today, but i joined their club and i would not be surprised if i get asked out...and i guarantee the feelings will flood back and i'll have to deal with them...
I"m going to look at it as a good problem to have..


...i guess i'm saying here's a big hug becasue i know what this feels like to you, but i think you are best served to go into the lions den and see what happens...you are either going to have a really tough time and back off, or you are going to make significant progress dealing with an important feeling that is hurting your quality of life AND getting back to your passion as a bonus... its not a "fail" if you end up backing away, its just a part of a very difficult path that has alot of ups and downs..

[TxKimberly]

I think that you have to be fair to them. If they have known you for years, it would no doubt be very hard to just suddenly start thinking of you differently. Even if it were as simple as a name change, you go from being called "Sue" to "Angie", by habit alone your friends are going to keep calling you "Sue" until they get used to the new name. You are asking them to instantly adapt to much more than a simple name change, and maybe that is not entirely reasonable of you?

I have not, and will not, transition, so take this with a huge grain of salt, but I would assume that if you give them time to shift their internal view of you, things may improve?

[Frances]

I think that you have to be fair to them. If they have known you for years, it would no doubt be very hard to just suddenly start thinking of you differently. Even if it were as simple as a name change, you go from being called "Sue" to "Angie", by habit alone your friends are going to keep calling you "Sue" until they get used to the new name. You are asking them to instantly adapt to much more than a simple name change, and maybe that is not entirely reasonable of you?

I have not, and will not, transition, so take this with a huge grain of salt, but I would assume that if you give them time to shift their internal view of you, things may improve?

You are not getting it. Once again, this is not about them. I don't know how to make this clearer.

I transitioned a few years ago on the job, in my neighbourhood. That means having people see me change and having to get used to it. I had to do a lot of educating folks around me, be very fair to them, and be entirely reasonable. Some of them got used to it eventually. Some (collegues who saw me everyday) showed me that they still saw me as a male, even after surgery and a lot of time. Some other people who were not as close to me seem to have forgetten completely my past (like the owner of the restaurant in my office building).

Maybe only post-transitional people get this.

I am not asking anyone to adapt instantly or do anything actually. I am talking about my subjectivity, my feelings. I am wondering if it's a good thing to go through the stuff I just mentioned above all over again.

While I appreciate everyone's input. It seems very clear that people who have not transitioned concentrate on others and how I should behave according to their feelings and post-transitional people empathize with my dilemma and the feelings provoked by the situation I am in. The perspective is very different.

For the people who are coming in the thread and don't know me, I am a post-op, post-transitional. I have been living as a woman full-time for years. I transitioned on the job and went through all the pain associated with the process.

Those of you who had a tough adolescence, got through it, and are now adults. Would you got through it again, on purpose?

[Saffron]

Those of you who had a tough adolescence, got through it, and are now adults. Would you got through it again, on purpose?

Obviously, not.

I think the question is, what do you prefer, to live in stealth in another career, or return to the music business and endure all the suffering.

I don't see a win-win situation here, each option have it's own pros and cons.

Although I'm starting my transition, I'm in the same situation about my career. I wish I had a perfect solution to offer to both of us. :doh:

[Badtranny]

Those of you who had a tough adolescence, got through it, and are now adults. Would you got through it again, on purpose?

That's a GREAT analogy Francie. (After skyping with you, I think I would probably call you Francie if we hung out because most of my friends get nicknames, and you were so cute and cuddly)

OMG or Frenchie! That would be so cute, since yer French and all. ;-)

[Frances]

That's a GREAT analogy Francie. (After skyping with you, I think I would probably call you Francie if we hung out because most of my friends get nicknames, and you were so cute and cuddly)

OMG or Frenchie! That would be so cute, since yer French and all. ;-)

Yes Misty, you can call me Francie or Frenchie as much as you want.

[Bree-asaurus]

Your response sounds like you think I am regretting transition or having second thoughts. I meant putting myself through the pain or being seen as trans all over again and having to explain what I have done all over again, when I did not need to anymore. This thread is about making life suck a little more... on purpose.

Ah okay! I misunderstood that post!

Yeah, I guess you do have quite the personal dilemma. I don't even know what I would do in that situation.

It does seem like you have already begun to relive some of that pain... so maybe give it a chance for a little bit and see if they come around? Or run like hell from the music scene you used to be in and start fresh if you can? Different side of town? Different group of people? I don't know...

[Jorja]

Frances, I think it comes down to how much do you want to get back into the music world? Are you willing to go through all the crap again? It has been my experience that it will only last a little while if you put your foot down and nip things in the bud right from the start. Show them that you can still play with the best of them but don't take any crap when it comes to using the proper pronouns. Your music will win out in the long run.

[Beth-Lock]

I am wondering how sensitive GG girls do it, I mean going though all these emotional crises in junior high and into regular high? And how do their parents handle their crises, and the way their girls suffer from them?

Sooner or later, the girls must find a way of stabilizing their emotional response to these sorts of rejections and insults to their femininity and attractiveness, etc., don't they?