Women at the office....

[Morgan_leeann]

and their styles are driving me crazy! Seems like I spend all day admiring what they get to parade around this office wearing. I would kill to have some of their wardrobes! Any one else have this problem??? :-) :-)

[Beverley Sims]

Yes! It has bugged me for years.
I have even asked some of them where they have bought their clothes.
I have some of the same clothes now. Gee they are high end shoppers.

[STACY B]

That's why I never had a Job around a bunch of woman ,,Like it out in the open alone or with other outdoor worker ,,, Don't know how you do it ,,I couldn't do it at all . To much presure ,,Just reminds me of what was not meant to be ,,, Like a recovering drunk in a bar .

[Karren H]

Its like working in a live Macys Catalogue... and I love it! So many of the young women are dressing up these day and I don't get upset.... just the opposite I get plenty of ideas and tips....

[Tracii G]

I always loved walking up thru the office checking out what the Sec's were wearing.
Give a nice compliment here and there even said things like glad you can shop at Ann Taylor or Talbott's I know who makes the money here!
Even kidded them OMG those shoes don't go with that outfit what were you thinking?
Always got a laugh out of them.

[Foxglove]

No, I'm not too worried about clothes these days. I'm in an "eyebrow phase". I've had all kinds of problems getting mine shaped the way I want them, so I study women's eyebrows very carefully. It's been a long time since I've looked a woman in the eyes. Not sure what they make of that.

Annabelle

[Kate Simmons]

So, ask them where they got their nice outfits. I've found that women just love guys with a fashion sense.;):)

[heatherdress]

Do you also notice the ugly-looking outfits? Some parade around in clothes that don't fit, don't flatter, don't appeal. Many members on this site look and dress better much better.

[Lady Catherine]

I always look and say to myself, "I'd kill to be able to pull that off." Nobody really dresses up down here in the Keys. It's a lot more casual then some places.

[kimdl93]

most of the office settings I've worked in were rather formal...business suits, etc. everyone, men and women, looked sharp but it didn't provide much in the way of fashion inspiration.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Back when I was still working I would walk through the office and admire what some of the ladies were
wearing and look at some of the other and think that I wouldn't be caught DEAD in something that ugly.

[Gillian Gigs]

What...EGAD... you mean that a gray flannel suit doesn't do it for you! ! ! Funny, it doesn't do it for me either..LOL
Same thing happens when I am at the mall doing my usual people watching. I saw this individual, mid 20's, while in the mall the other day, and it took until they were within 10 ft before I realised he, was a guy. Skinny jeans, shirt, long hair in a pony tail, and make up to the nines, saw him later working the make up counter in the Bay, and doing make overs. Had nice ear rings, with a skirt and practise walking, he would have passed without a second thought.

[AlexisRaeMoon]

Oh yeah! Some of the girls in our HR dept. dress very nicely. One in particular has the most amazing collection of heels. I look foward to see what she's going to wear daily. Distracted? Heck yeah!

[Julie Denier]

My office leans casual, but in general, observation helps a lot toward emulation.

[RitaJanelle1964]

I've worked in the medical field for the last 15 years, so pretty much all I ever see are women in scrubs day in and day out. Occasionally, our female physicians will dress with style and class, but even that's becoming more and more rare...

[~Joanne~]

It drives me absolutely crazy. Not just the wardrobes but the fact that they can dress and be out and no one gives it much thought but us CD's. Sometimes I feel tormented to no end ;)

[Leah Lynn]

At my last company I'd go through the office and see the ladies. I would often joke and flirt a little, always commenting on clothing, shoes and hairdo's. As for casual, I remember when wearing a sweater with a skirt was considered casual. In drab, removing the suit jacket and donning a sweater was considered casual. Of course, the necktie was still worn. Fifty years have seriously changed dressing habits.

[Debglam]

LOL! I always have to be careful to not be too excited when one of my coworkers wears a new, or particularly attractive outfit! I KNOW I have violated the "guys don't notice shoes" rule way too many times! :heehee:

[lingerieLiz]

I don't have a problem at all. Love to see women in great outfits. The good part is I have some also.

[Jeannie]

I worked in office with women also. The only trouble with that was we were in the Army and I was wearing what they were wearing.

[Tracii G]

It drives me absolutely crazy. Not just the wardrobes but the fact that they can dress and be out and no one gives it much thought but us CD's. Sometimes I feel tormented to no end ;)

Feeling that way is something you need to work on Joanne.
Muster up the courage that is inside you.

[NathalieX66]

No crossdresser or MTF transgender person is immune to the effects of female presence in any place. The confidence and free-ness that women have makes the rest of us envious and giddy.

[Courtneigh]

Deffinately I do...but I love watching the parade...at the office or the mall or whereever....

[toriwilliams]

there are a few women at my work that that dress really nice and i check them out to get ideas on styles and what goes best with what. but because i shop at thrift stores i have purchased a lot of (nice) clothes very cheap; so i don't envy their clothes, i have a ton of my own. (just wish i could wear them more often) :) tori

[Alice Torn]

When i was in the Air Force for a short time, I was mesmerixed by the women in Air Force skirt and blouse combos, and full dress uniforms. On airline flights, it is the same thing. Stewardesses in lovely dresses, and skirt uniforms!!

[Stefanie jones]

Yes they have such a variety it's not fair
Wish I could wear the shoes and polish my toes

[FeelingFem]

LOL! I always have to be careful to not be too excited when one of my coworkers wears a new, or particularly attractive outfit! I KNOW I have violated the "guys don't notice shoes" rule way too many times! :heehee:

Same here. I notice shoes (and pantyhose / stockings) constantly. A few times I've received the "how did you know that?" look, but it's quickly dissolved by stating that I'm married and have been shopping with my wife. Actually, my wife hates to shop, but they don't need to know that.

[ReineD]

and their styles are driving me crazy! Seems like I spend all day admiring what they get to parade around this office wearing. I would kill to have some of their wardrobes!


I always look and say to myself, "I'd kill to be able to pull that off."


I look foward to see what she's going to wear daily. Distracted? Heck yeah!


It drives me absolutely crazy. Not just the wardrobes but the fact that they can dress and be out


LOL! I always have to be careful to not be too excited when one of my coworkers wears a new, or particularly attractive outfit!


No crossdresser or MTF transgender person is immune to the effects of female presence in any place. The confidence and free-ness that women have makes the rest of us envious and giddy.


there are a few women at my work that that dress really nice and i check them out to get ideas on styles and what goes best with what.


When i was in the Air Force for a short time, I was mesmerixed by the women in Air Force skirt and blouse combos, and full dress uniforms.


Same here. I notice shoes (and pantyhose / stockings) constantly.


**big deep sigh**

I've noticed an admiring glance sent my way, here and there over the years. I was flattered because I thought he was attracted to me and it made me feel good. You know, like I was fulfilling my primal role in the male/female relationship dynamic, which is girl and boy meet, boy is attracted to girl, girl selects him, and if the stars align they mate. :) I used to see my SO's eyes light up when he saw me, and this is one of the things about him that melted my heart and sent chills up my spine. I'd go out of my way to make myself as appealing as I could on the off chance that I'd run into him, because I wanted him to be attracted to me.

But according to the sentiments in this thread, it wasn't me at all, it was just my clothes! :cry:

Is it possible for CDers in general to be attracted to a woman as a man is normally attracted to a woman, without wishing he (or she) was wearing her clothes? Can this be separated at all?

[VS Fan]

Is it possible for CDers in general to be attracted to a woman as a man is normally attracted to a woman, without wishing he (or she) was wearing her clothes? Can this be separated at all?

For me Reine, I'm attracted to the *woman* first, only THEN envious of the outfit ... so there is hope :)

VS Fan

[sweetgal]

I KNOW I have violated the "guys don't notice shoes" rule way too many times! :heehee:

I have to watch out for this as well.

[sweetgal]

NewGirl, I can totally relate. I have the same situation at my office where I work with a bunch of smokin' hot 20 and 30 somethings who are great dressers.

[Kelli Ca]

and their styles are driving me crazy! Seems like I spend all day admiring what they get to parade around this office wearing. I would kill to have some of their wardrobes! Any one else have this problem??? :-) :-) I have that problem every time I leave the house women I envy the women isee and the styles they have on

[our gracie]

**big deep sigh**

I've noticed an admiring glance sent my way, here and there over the years. I was flattered because I thought he was attracted to me and it made me feel good. You know, like I was fulfilling my primal role in the male/female relationship dynamic, which is girl and boy meet, boy is attracted to girl, girl selects him, and if the stars align they mate. :) I used to see my SO's eyes light up when he saw me, and this is one of the things about him that melted my heart and sent chills up my spine. I'd go out of my way to make myself as appealing as I could on the off chance that I'd run into him, because I wanted him to be attracted to me.

But according to the sentiments in this thread, it wasn't me at all, it was just my clothes! :cry:

Is it possible for CDers in general to be attracted to a woman as a man is normally attracted to a woman, without wishing he (or she) was wearing her clothes? Can this be separated at all?



Oh dear, Reine!

You're the one who normally answers everyone's problems.

You're the one who comes up with a solution when several different points of view are put forward, and you thrust your way through the middle.

Yes, of course it is possible for CDers in general to be attracted to a woman as a man is normally attracted to a woman.
I certainly am; I just love beautiful women; it would be wonderful to be one (so long as I don't have to be involved with men, ever).

I differ from most men, in that I am not a "leg person".
Short skirts, short dresses, minis, or shorts do absolutely nothing to me at all.
I much prefer long dresses, evening dresses, ballgowns – silk, satin, taffeta.
I realise that these are not very practical, so I'll settle for longish skirts and dresses.

I have commented positively a few times on the Picture and Video gallery.
Some of the girls there are gorgeous, but are wearing very short skirts.
I do not notice the skirt, only the beautiful girl.
Obviously, the same girl in a long, satin dress would win more brownie points, but these would be additional points, not replacement.

So, what would be my reaction to a girl whom I did not find attractive, but who was wearing a lovely ballgown?
I would like to have that ballgown; I would like to wear that ballgown, but ideally I would like two copies of it, one for me, and one to give to a pretty girl who would look tremendous in it.

Just my take on it.

Gracie

Gracie.

[Moxie]

As a wife, I find this whole thread deeply depressing :(

[Foxglove]

But according to the sentiments in this thread, it wasn't me at all, it was just my clothes! :cry:

Is it possible for CDers in general to be attracted to a woman as a man is normally attracted to a woman, without wishing he (or she) was wearing her clothes? Can this be separated at all?

Good question, Reine. One I've long tried to answer for myself. I know that I personally have many, many times in my life been torn in two: being attracted to a woman and wanting to look like her at the same time. (I once started a thread on that topic, as you may remember.)

As a woman, you shouldn't take this personally. This is to do with us, nothing at all with you. I can't speak for others, but it is something I've always found hard to deal with: knowing that I'm so abnormal and, in some people's eyes, perhaps even my own, just plain sick. How can a guy be immensely sexually attracted to a woman and yet want to be like her at the same time? For a lot of us, that's the trans dilemma, and it can be quite painful.

It's also the source of many of the problems that exist, or that we create, for ourselves and others. E.g., the big one: how can a guy marry a woman without telling her he crossdresses? Because as a heterosexual man, he loves her dearly, and he hopes/wishes/dreams that the other part of him will go away. And because he loves her so much, he's ashamed of himself, or he doesn't want to think about it, or he actually manages to forget about it for a while. But it doesn't go away--and then he's really in trouble, and she's really upset.

We don't do it on purpose, Reine. It's just the way we are, and there's nothing we can do about it. Give me a choice: I can be trans, or I can be attracted to women. One or the other, I can't be both. That would solve part of my problems at least. So which one would I choose? (Perhaps this would be a good topic for a thread?) At this point I think I'd give up my attraction to women. I think I've lost a fair bit of it anyway. By holding onto my trans nature, I'm accepting what I am. Women or no women, I've always been trans. So why not accept that finally?

Best wishes, Annabelle

[ReineD]

As a wife, I find this whole thread deeply depressing :(

Me too. Just goes to show how difficult it is for us to truly understand the inner workings of CDers. Some things I can understand, but not when it comes to hetero CDers not wanting the same things that hetero non-CDers do in women. This isn't a slam directed at all the people I quoted, but this is probably one of the biggest puzzlers for the GG SOs.

Thanks for your responses, VS Fan, Gracie, and Annabelle. :hugs:

So Annabelle, you're saying that it is so difficult to be torn between wanting a woman and wanting to be like her, that you would choose to stop wanting her?

[Foxglove]

So Annabelle, you're saying that it is so difficult to be torn between wanting a woman and wanting to be like her, that you would choose to stop wanting her?

It depends, Reine. Which woman are we talking about? If it was one that I was absolutely mad about, I'd probably want to give up my TGism--though that, of course, is impossible.

I think what I'm saying is that I've got to the point where I've simply accepted that I'm trans. That's not going to go away. So if my attraction for women were to disappear, that would simplify things for me.

I can imagine not being attracted to women. I can't imagine not being trans. And maybe I'm just getting old now, but my attraction to women isn't nearly as strong as it used to be anyway. So if I had to let one thing go, I suppose that would be the one.

This is all hypothetical, of course. I've always been an extremely confused individual, and that's not going to change. But being divided inside in this way really isn't any fun.

Annabelle

[Moxie]

Annabelle, I'm sorry it's so difficult.

For all of us :(

But thank you for trying to explain. Really, that's all a GG can ask for.

[Debglam]

But according to the sentiments in this thread, it wasn't me at all, it was just my clothes! :cry:

NO NO NO NO NO! This is NOT what I'm saying at all!

I love women, really love women and am very attracted to them. I think some of the women in my office vary from pretty to BEAUTIFUL and if I were single and closer to their age, I would be asking them out! BUT(!) I am extremely happily married to a beautiful woman and don't cheat, nor am I a "perv" leering at my coworkers. The point is that I now allow myself to OPENLY admire clothes, makeup, shoes, etc. I shamelessly will tell one of my coworkers, "That dress is beautiful, it really compliments you," or "those shoes are absolutely amazing," etc. I know I have made some of their days on occasion and that makes me even happier about this. If anyone overhears and thinks that I'm not "manly" because I take notice of these things, so what.

Yes, there ARE times where I think how I would look in that or maybe I should try that eyeshadow, but they are distinct and separate from compliments I pay. To go back to the OP, I would love to wear something from Ann Taylor to the office instead of my usual suit an tie but that has NOTHING to do thinking a woman looks pretty and telling her so! :D


Is it possible for CDers in general to be attracted to a woman as a man is normally attracted to a woman, without wishing he (or she) was wearing her clothes? Can this be separated at all?

Speaking for myself, absolutely! Happens everyday!

[Ameli]

I'm forever checking out women's outfits and makeup but I think it's completely different when it comes to my wife. It's fun to see how different women pull off different looks and to get ideas but when it's my wife getting dolled up, she looks HOT and I want to take her home and be with her. When I see someone on the street, it's fun to think about how I might look in their outfit or want to try a make up idea but I rarely think of that with my wife. I do see how my wife's clothing choices is a result of her mood, confidence, etc. I think there's quite a difference between being attracted to a woman's clothes and being attracted to a woman. On a similar note, I suspect my wife has a hard time when I check out a woman's boots or skirt or eye makeup.

Ameli

[Amy Milnet]

I do not work in a office, but I am out in public all day. When I see women dressed for the office it makes me nuts! I would kill to go to work dressed like that just one day let alone all the time.

[Babeba]

As a woman, you shouldn't take this personally. This is to do with us, nothing at all with you.

That's kind if what gets me feeling the way Doormat is - that you're not looking at women to take them seriously as individual humans but obsessing over small, superficial details. It's all about turning women into an object to spin around and admire. Worse, you're not even objectifying her as a human - but as a clothes rack, an object that is usually inanimate.

[Foxglove]

As a woman, you shouldn't take this personally. This is to do with us, nothing at all with you. I can't speak for others, but it is something I've always found hard to deal with: knowing that I'm so abnormal and, in some people's eyes, perhaps even my own, just plain sick. How can a guy be immensely sexually attracted to a woman and yet want to be like her at the same time? For a lot of us, that's the trans dilemma, and it can be quite painful.



That's kind if what gets me feeling the way Doormat is - that you're not looking at women to take them seriously as individual humans but obsessing over small, superficial details. It's all about turning women into an object to spin around and admire. Worse, you're not even objectifying her as a human - but as a clothes rack, an object that is usually inanimate.

Babeba, if you want to quote my words, you can leave my name in the quote box. I'll own up to what I say.

Secondly, this is hardly the first time this sort of thing has happened to me on this forum: somebody misunderstands what I've said, then proceeds to preach at me a bit.

Thirdly, you've been a bit dishonest here: you've only quoted two little sentences that you feel can make me look bad. If you'd quoted a bit more of what I said, then I don't think things look so bad for me.

Now the situation was this: I was responding to Reine's post #28. Now Reine can speak for herself, of course, but I got the impression she was being half-serious, half-facetious. But I decided to reply to her because I felt she was asking a good question, one that I've thought about before because it is very relevant to me.

The fact is that throughout my life I've always been divided inside myself: if I see a nice-looking woman, on the one hand I'm attracted to her, on the other hand I envy her and want to look like her. Now here's a part of what I said which you neglected to quote:

I can't speak for others, but it is something I've always found hard to deal with: knowing that I'm so abnormal and, in some people's eyes, perhaps even my own, just plain sick.

You see, this is something that I'm not comfortable with. I'm aware that it could upset a woman. You see, I'm not failing "to look at women to take them seriously as individual humans but obsessing over small, superficial details. It's all about turning women into an object to spin around and admire. Worse, you're not even objectifying her as a human - but as a clothes rack, an object that is usually inanimate."

I'm not turning a woman into an object or a clothes rack. I'm well aware that she has feelings, and if she knew my feelings it could possibly bother her.

As a matter of fact, I once started a thread on this very topic--here:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?176992-Question-for-GG-s-only-please-Curiosity-strikes-again!

Being aware that women might not like my feelings, I actually took the trouble to ask them. I think I'm a bit more sensitive to people than you give me credit for. And you'll note that neither Reine nor Doormat on this thread nor any of the other women who posted on the other thread got upset with me for raising the question.

So when I said,

This is to do with us, nothing at all with you,

what I meant was "It's not your fault. It's mine." That is, if anybody's at fault here, I accept that I am, not the woman in question. Am I at fault? Should I feel guilty about the feelings I have? I'm trans. Such are my feelings. Blame me for them if you like, but I've tried to deal honestly with them.

You don't know me personally, Babeba, and two little sentences on a forum won't tell you anything about me. But this I can say honestly: no woman I've ever known personally has ever accused me of treating her the way you say I'm doing.

Best wishes,
Annabelle

[Vickie_CDTV]

But according to the sentiments in this thread, it wasn't me at all, it was just my clothes! :cry:

Is it possible for CDers in general to be attracted to a woman as a man is normally attracted to a woman, without wishing he (or she) was wearing her clothes? Can this be separated at all?

This is one of those things that is very difficult for GGs to understand and I hope I can help explain.

Reine, I think you are selling yourself short; if a man likes your clothes, it certainly does not mean he cannot find you attractive as well. That is true of many of us. I'd be lying if I said there are not some who are only into the clothes and not the women in them. Some dressers may look at you and just be interested in what you are wearing, but please understand that is not always the case, and the fact a man likes your clothes does not mean he cannot find you attractive as well. Can the two be separated? I certainly cannot speak for everyone, but I think in general a dresser sees you, finds you attractive and also finds your clothes attractive, he cannot just turn off his attraction to your clothes like turning off a light; however, that does not mean he cannot find both you and your clothes attractive concurrently and desire you at the same time.

Please understand many of us are drawn to women's clothes we like like a magnet. Call it a fetish, an obsession, or whatever, but it is something we are drawn to and something we notice and pay attention to. I really, really cannot say emphatically enough that it does not have to do with the woman, and it does not mean they we feel there is anything wrong or undesirable about the woman. It is just something some of us are hardwired to be attracted to and notice. I am really pleading for understanding by GGs when I say that YES, even if we fancy the clothes you are wearing we can find you attractive, and it DOES NOT mean we think there is something wrong with you or that we are not attracted to you. Even if we happen to be obsessed with your clothes, we STILL CAN love you and desire to be with you!

[Angela Campbell]

For all the GG's who read this and get depressed.

I was in a relationship several years ago with a woman I have not seen in quite a few years now. I was totally mesmerized by her. It did not matter one bit what clothes she was wearing, or not wearing. Even just out of the shower or first thing in the morning it did not matter. The sight of her just sent chills down my spine and made me almost unable to talk. Hearing her voice on the phone, anything about her. It was her. I did enjoy many of the clothes she wore but she was not always dressed up. It didn't matter. When a man is in love it is the person not the look. I have not seen her in over 10 years now but if I did I would melt just the same whether she looked great or if she was over 400 lbs and bald.

By the way this was the only person in the world I ever told about my desire to dress. She was very accepting and even went shopping with me. It had nothing to do with our separation.

[Darla]

Whoo whee! One never knows which thread is on fire - and this one is! I'll hold off on the superficial "I like that my office mate is able to pair a sweatersress wil a pair of nude heels so effectively" and throw down in defense of the CDers liking women for women's sake despite their wardrobe.

My wife is my favorite person in the world. She can't always work that outfit, but I could care less. She bore two children, keeps up a home that has no business being kept up, and manages to drive me wild with a few words. When I met her I thought her tattered jeans cuffs were the sexiest thing I'd ever seen. Was it a pair of pumps in red satin I was attracted too? No - it was her. And that's all that matters. Will I be able to buy her those red satin heels (that I covet bTW) without her suspecting that I'm also attracted to the presentation as much as her? Not likely.

But news flash - a lot of men objectify. We just do it more fabulously!

Darla

[Maria 60]

When I do service work I have to go into office's and notice that a lot of office women don't dress like they used to, a lot of women wear pants more often but when you do see those real professional women, it is a great wonder to see.

[Tiffini Marie]

For me seeing the outfits the women in the office wear is the highlight of my day. I would love to have the confidence to ask where they got their outfit, and even to ask for makeup advice. That would reveal a little too much about me though. :daydreaming:

Sometimes I have to shut my office door just to avoid the distraction of them walking by.

[Babeba]

Annabelle,

I'm sorry that I upset you. I didn't mean to do that.

I quite often will quote a small part rather than a whole post, when I am posting from my iPhone. It's easier to pull out a smaller section that way. You are correct, I took away the context and it did change the meaning, now I've looked at it.

I do think sometimes however, that some cross dressing GM's do forget about the woman behind the clothes - and in threads like this one even with those members who are very aware of women as people, they post in such a way that makes it seem as though they are not. That is one of the things I was referring to. I misunderstood your sentences as being exactly indicative of this, and so I quoted them as one example of what I saw as being an example of this.

[k lynn]

I work in retail at night when I see a nicely dressed woman the first thing I notice or her eyes I am a sucker for green eyes then I notice their legs I ama leg man too just the other night a lady walked by she had a on a pair of jeans that made her legs say look at me and I did and I said to myself damn I would like to get to know her. so yes I notice how a woman is dressed but no I dont wont to wear her clothes.

[Jenn A116]

But according to the sentiments in this thread, it wasn't me at all, it was just my clothes! :cry:

Is it possible for CDers in general to be attracted to a woman as a man is normally attracted to a woman, without wishing he (or she) was wearing her clothes? Can this be separated at all?

Funny you should ask. Yes, I do believe its possible.

I know that when I see an attractive woman I'm looking at her on two levels. The male side of me is appreciating a beautiful woman. The female side of me is appraising how she dresses and how that outfit would work on me. They are two different thoughts, seemingly coming from two different places.

[ChelseaErtel]

Not really, we mostly have very frumpy engineers and scientists. But there are two young ladies who are very beautiful and have fabulous clothes.

I'm too old for their styles, but I do enjoy looking at them just to look and to admire their clothes. I'm a big shoe girl, and they have fantastic heels, oh how it makes them walk.

[Billie Jean]

[QUOTE=RitaJanelle1964;2990556]I've worked in the medical field for the last 15 years, so pretty much all I ever see are women in scrubs day in and day out. Occasionally, our female physicians will dress with style and class, but even that's becoming more and more rare...[/QUOTEWe have a young doctor from the Phillipines who dresses well. She has this black mini she wears with boots thats really cute. Billie Jean

[Foxglove]

Hi, Babeba! Thanks for your latest post. I appreciate it very much.




I do think sometimes however, that some cross dressing GM's do forget about the woman behind the clothes - and in threads like this one even with those members who are very aware of women as people, they post in such a way that makes it seem as though they are not. That is one of the things I was referring to. I misunderstood your sentences as being exactly indicative of this, and so I quoted them as one example of what I saw as being an example of this.

One thing I wanted to say here: I've put in bold your words "in threads like this one". One thing I'd like to ask you GG's to kindly bear in mind: we "girls" do have threads like this one, threads that are a bit light-hearted, a bit superficial where we're talking about nothing but clothes and that sort of thing. I can understand that GG's would get a bit miffed here because it can sound like the only thing we think comprises feminity is appearance. But we do have more serious threads, too, where we discuss more serious topics, where we look at our emotions, the nature of being trans, etc. What it comes down to is that we transpeople are like a lot of others: we have our silly moments and our serious moments. If there were nothing but silliness on this forum, I for one wouldn't be here.

Babeba, I was thinking about something last night, undoubtedly one of the most important moments of my life. I can't recall how old I was at the time, a bit past puberty I suppose. Up to then, I'd been a normal, CDing kid, sneaking around, grabbing whatever I could find to put on, doing my best not to get caught, and not thinking about what I was doing in the least.

Then one night I saw a commercial on TV. I forget who the actress was in it, and I forget what TV show she was starring in, but she was very popular at the time--and she was gorgeous. This commercial was for a TV manufacturer. This was in the early days of color TV, and the message of the commercial was, "See what vivid colors you'll get if you buy one of our TV's!"

Now this actress was all done up, and she was pointing out all the bright colors of her outfit for the benefit of those who still had black-and-white TV. I can't remember much of anything of what she said, but it went like this: "My such-and-such is this color, and my such-and-such is this color--and my dress is green." And that one really hit me hard.

That was when I realized two things: that a pretty woman was very appealing to me, and that I envied the hell out of her: I wanted to be her, or at least I wanted to be just like her. And I didn't know what in the world to do with those feelings. But that's when the gender dysphoria really kicked in. As odd as it sounds to normal people, I realized with dismay that the day would never come when I could stand before a TV, or any other sort of, audience, and say brightly and cheerily, "And my dress is green!" I know how odd it sounds to normal people, but that hurt a lot. And nothing has ever been the same since.

So these are my feelings, and should I feel bad about having them? I don't think so, because they're just part of my TGism as a whole, and if I have to feel bad about them, I have to feel bad about all the rest. And I've decided to stop doing that. It appears to me, from what others are saying on this thread, that I might be in a minority in this regard. But that's OK, too, because we transpeople come in all different varieties, and if this is a minority variety, it's still me. That's what I am.

As I said, I can understand that a woman might not like this feeling that I have. But I look at it this way: we all have feelings from time to time that perhaps we shouldn't have. E.g., sometimes you might take a dislike to somebody for no real reason. Looking at them objectively, there's nothing really wrong with them, but there's just something about them that rubs you the wrong way. This kind of thing happens: sometimes feelings just spontaneously arise in us, and we have no real control over that.

What we are in control of is how we deal with those feelings. And if you treat someone you dislike with respect, as friendlily as you can, don't go out of your way to make them unhappy, etc., then I think you're doing as much as anybody can reasonably expect.

And so I have this feeling inside me through no fault of my own. It's just the way I'm made. The question is what I do with it. If you look at that thread that I started on this topic, it was a typical experience for me. I saw a girl I found attractive, and at the same time I envied her. Same old story, the story of my life. But all I did was give her a little smile, which she seemed to enjoy, and then she went on her way. And that was it. I've never seen her since, I don't know who she is, I don't know the first thing about her.

But I didn't let this feeling of mine hurt her in any way. Being aware that women might not like this feeling, I've always kept it to myself. I've always dealt with it myself and never forced any woman to deal with it. That's why I don't apologize for it: I can't help it, and it's never hurt a soul in the world but me.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Rachel05]

Yes yes yes that is one of the torments I find of being a cross dresser, one of my female colleagues has the best wardrobe of anyone I know

[Dannigirl]

I know exactly what you mean, I just spent the week in Seattle and managed to go for a walk before and after meetings right around the time people were going and coming from work. Wow, did I ever have BOOT envy. I am infatuated with boots right now and if I had a spare $3000 I would load up on them :)

[Babeba]

Annabelle,


One thing I wanted to say here: I've put in bold your words "in threads like this one". One thing I'd like to ask you GG's to kindly bear in mind: we "girls" do have threads like this one, threads that are a bit light-hearted, a bit superficial where we're talking about nothing but clothes and that sort of thing. I can understand that GG's would get a bit miffed here because it can sound like the only thing we think comprises feminity is appearance.

I listened to a podcast yesterday that made me go, "This. Exactly this." It was on a word I had never heard of, 'femmephobia.' (It was on the show, 'stuff Mom never told you,' it's on iTunes and howstuffworks.com for free and it is really good). It put a lot of things into words and articulated them for me.

There is a certain aspect of feminism (and of women around today, in real life) who seem to feel that anything too "girly" and 'feminine' is a disservice to women; if you like polka dots, sparkles, and Hello Kitty past the age of 12 then you are buying into constructs of 'girlhood' and immaturity which leave women powerless, orchestrated by the patriarchy keeping women weak and distracted. It's insidious, because if you're too feminine a lot of women don't take you seriously. There are scads of criticisms about expressing yourself as too girly, from 'you're setting a bad example' and down. It's a nasty mentality, which also completely turns the holder of that view against trans people as well, at least emotionally.

Being a girl who loves pink, polka dots and Hello Kitty, I face this sort of thing sometimes. It totally sucks to not get taken seriously by other women because I am girly and interested in how fashion works. (If I preface any of my clothing knowledge by, 'I interned at the Fashion Museum' I get taken more seriously - because museums are automatically elitist, I guess. It's weird.) To then turn around and feel as though fashion-conscious women are kind of invisible clothes hangers at best, and objects causing pain and misery of jealousy at worst - it hurts. I want to be seen as a person, too, and I want other women like me to get the same respect... But there is little to no mention of these women's personality traits, just their closets. Don't get me wrong, I like window shopping for clothes on people too. But it's second nature to try and see what sort of a person they are as much as it is to see where they got their shoes.

Annabelle, I think when you saw that woman saying 'my dress is green,' the reason that struck you more than anything else until then was that self-expressive freedom she had - and not the green dress she had, which you really couldn't see clearly. Also when a woman is asking for you to pay attention to her clothes, wouldn't it be rude not to?

[toriwilliams]

I do understand how this subject can be disturbing, there are many different perspectives and views. in how i define attraction (interested in talking to someone about personal interests, beautiful, dating, etc) i am attracted to women. I don't know if there is such a thing as an attraction to clothes. There are attractive and unattractive women at my office that dress nice. There is also this guy who is a sharp dresser. I notice his clothes, but there is no attraction. I wonder, do women look at how other women dress? There could be many reason why we look at someone; it could be an attraction, it could be clothes, it could be a tattoo or piercing, or it could be mistaken identify (oh, I thought you were someone else)...:)

[Foxglove]

I listened to a podcast yesterday that made me go, "This. Exactly this." It was on a word I had never heard of, 'femmephobia.' . . .

Yeah, I know what you're saying. You can have freedom from one set of definitions as long as you accept another set. Probably no matter who you are, you're going to have somebody trying to force a certain role on you.


Annabelle, I think when you saw that woman saying 'my dress is green,' the reason that struck you more than anything else until then was that self-expressive freedom she had - and not the green dress she had, which you really couldn't see clearly.

Yeah, that's it. It wasn't the dress exactly. It was what she was and the freedom she had to be herself, which was a freedom I didn't have. And sad to say, it didn't occur to me to think, Well, if you don't have that freedom, maybe you should try to get it. I don't know what I was thinking about when I was young. Or rather, I do. I once read Chaucer in the original. We all have our personal escape hatches.


Also when a woman is asking for you to pay attention to her clothes, wouldn't it be rude not to?

I don't know. You tell me. On the other hand, if she's asking me to pay attention to her clothes when I'm not interested in them, is she being rude? Maybe I'd better not ask that question. I have a feeling that one could get me in A LOT of trouble.

Annabelle

[OK, wait. I've thought about it further. Of course I'd be interested in her clothes. So why wouldn't I pay attention to them? I was just thinking for a minute for some reason that that might be a trick question.]

[ReineD]

There is a certain aspect of feminism (and of women around today, in real life) who seem to feel that anything too "girly" and 'feminine' is a disservice to women;

... as is the decision to stay home and raise babies. I agree, some feminists take it too far and believe there should be no gender differences. Women and men are biologically different and they are motivated differently. This should be honored, not reviled. At the same time just because a woman embraces her femininity and motherhood doesn't mean that she is not a multi faceted individual. She needs to be respected as an equal and seen for more than her femininity or sexuality ... or her clothes. :p

I totally agree with your point, Babs. And honestly, to reverse the tables, if I saw my ideal of a perfect male, handsome beyond compare and with a body that caused my heart to do flip-flops, and he was also dressed in clothing that I find personally appealing, I'd appreciate the view. But, if he subsequently revealed an inner self that was not so appealing, my regard for his appearance would disappear.

[Babeba]

... as is the decision to stay home and raise babies. I agree, some feminists take it too far and believe there should be no gender differences. Women and men are biologically different and they are motivated differently. This should be honored, not reviled. At the same time just because a woman embraces her femininity and motherhood doesn't mean that she is not a multi faceted individual. She needs to be respected as an equal and seen for more than her femininity or sexuality ... or her clothes. :p

I totally agree with your point, Babs. And honestly, to reverse the tables, if I saw my ideal of a perfect male, handsome beyond compare and with a body that caused my heart to do flip-flops, and he was also dressed in clothing that I find personally appealing, I'd appreciate the view. But, if he subsequently revealed an inner self that was not so appealing, my regard for his appearance would disappear.

As I once said to the most beautiful man I had ever met (before Crystal and I started dating) when he asked me to hook up with him at a party, "but I wouldn't respect you in the morning!" :heehee: He looked a whole lot uglier to me then.

I think the stay at home mom debate is a major difference between second wave feminism (what most people think about when they think feminism) and third-wave feminism: third wave feminism is a lot more about each individual person being able to reach their full potential of their happiness and their abilities, and not prejudging people or situations through our own cultural lenses or gendered filters.

[Sallee]

Wow this is my post #1000 I finally made it
You have the problem I have to many cute and good looking women in the office I know I spend a lot of time checking them out and your right is is usually their outfit.
I wonder how many other guys are doing the same thing. Maybe there just looking at body parts but I'll bet it was the wardrobe that drew them to look in the first place.
Just enjoy the fantasy

[ReineD]

I think the stay at home mom debate is a major difference between second wave feminism (what most people think about when they think feminism) and third-wave feminism

Exactly. The second wave was useful to propel us out of the 1950s, but thank goodness for the third wave who brought us back to center. They gave us back our choices, although some women as you say still adhere to the second wave principles.

But, some elements of the third wave do not consider gender differences; they claim that the male/female binary is a social construct. Although I agree that some people fall outside the binary and they doom themselves to unhappiness by trying to conform to it, and also the media does still push the gendered stereotypes which makes it difficult for non-binary people to fit in, I do believe there are biological differences between men and women that account for real differences between them.

(Disregard my liberal use of "some". I'm trying to not generalize) :p

[BRANDYJ]

**big deep sigh**

I've noticed an admiring glance sent my way, here and there over the years. I was flattered because I thought he was attracted to me and it made me feel good. You know, like I was fulfilling my primal role in the male/female relationship dynamic, which is girl and boy meet, boy is attracted to girl, girl selects him, and if the stars align they mate. :) I used to see my SO's eyes light up when he saw me, and this is one of the things about him that melted my heart and sent chills up my spine. I'd go out of my way to make myself as appealing as I could on the off chance that I'd run into him, because I wanted him to be attracted to me.

But according to the sentiments in this thread, it wasn't me at all, it was just my clothes! :cry:

Is it possible for CDers in general to be attracted to a woman as a man is normally attracted to a woman, without wishing he (or she) was wearing her clothes? Can this be separated at all?

My Dear ReineD, Have no doubt that some of us look at the beauty, attractiveness, sensuality of the woman and NOT her clothes! For me it's very separated. I can honestly say that I never looked at a woman and drooled over what she was wearing. I confess, I have drooled over many women, not the package she was wrapped in. Many women can turn my head wearing a seed sack! Sure, I may or may not notice what she's wearing, but it's the total package and definitely not the wrapper.