So. Why is it LGBTQ?

[2B Natasha]

I know what the letters stand for. Thank you. But I can say I'm not crazy about the " Q ".

My real question is. Why not TGBLQ?

First and foremost. WE are T. So why don't we put ourselves first in line?

Anybody got a good answer?

Cheers.

[Sheren Kelly]

We were late to the party?
Lesbians and gays have been fighting for their rights for longer than there was ever a T community. I know the queens were at Stonewall when the gay rights movement first asserted themselves in public, but even today, how many T people do you see out front fighting for their rights? I've got no issue with putting LGB ahead of us in the alphabet soup, they were the ones who led the way for the rest of us.

I'm OK with the Q label as our young people need safe space to explore their identities without fear of bullying.

[GaleWarning]

I'm OK with the Q label as our young people need safe space to explore their identities without fear of bullying.

As a teacher who witnesses and deals with what happens when students use offensive terminology against their fellow students, I abhor the way the words "gay", "lezzie", "queer" are used.

I demand that my students refrain from abusing each other with hurtful terminology.

When will we learn that people are all people who need acceptance, love, affirmation, acceptance ....?

Not as long as there are people who insist that we accentuate the differences between each other!

Bloody hell! It's been a while since I last felt the need to let rip!

[Tracii G]

GLBT works for me they help/include TG's too.

[TeresaL]

Absolutely as Kelly has described. We who are "T" were not there when the LBG started working their butts off trying to fight discrimination, bigotry, and bullying. Insofar as I understand, there are laws making it illegal to verbally abuse or discriminate against LBG based on their sexual orientation. Many workplaces have taken up the slack and provided a safe haven for the LGB.

So the transgender aspect was tacked on later, and we as of yet, do not have full priveledges, nor do we deserve the generosity of the LGB, but they have added us.

Much work still needs to be done, but some things are taking place. Such as...
... One of my friends transitioned on the job in a large corporation in my community. I looked up that company's policy, and they are fully supportive of transgender folks.

On another forefront, and reported by a recent medical document, AMA has placed a plea for insurance to be available which would pay for transitioning on the workplace. Maybe we will see a turnaround from the olde era of shame and guilt in the pre-Internet days, moving past the more accepting and informed current times, and going forward to days yet unseen where few people will challenge gender differences. To be set free at last!

Clayfish, let it rip. it's not fair and never was. I hope its not true, but IMO, students and kids in general can be cruel.

[Megan_Renee]

L & G (or G &L) have been fighting for their rights openly for a long time. Science has progressed to a point where T is supported empirically, which is nice. I think that there is some thinking that the B is just an intermediary step. Q, in my understanding, is more for the Jack Harkness mentality -- Just be attracted to what is attractive, and roll with it.

So the legitimate answer, minus historical addition, is that we are not popular. (I know I was shocked to realize it... I mean, I was ever so popular in high school... Everyone wanted to talk to me... They all said such nice things as, "STFU fag," and "Go talk to your boyfriend and cry some more...") Even among the GL community we are not accepted on a wholesale level.

I'm ok with this; we even have our own flag! I like flags.

The truth is that each group orders the letters to their own agenda. G and L are much more organized than we are, which is why organizations that publish research recognize those letters first - there is a recognized body determining the order of letters.

[AllieSF]

Since we are Johnny and Janey come lately to the party, I think that we should be grateful someone added us to the bigger picture. I also think that humility is a lot better than vanity.

[ReineD]

I don't know why the letters appear in this order. Probably in order of discovery or awareness in the mainstream. Think of it like a querty keyboard. It is what it is. You're in it, so all is good. :)

The full acronym is LGBTQIA. Some of the letters signify several things.

Lesbian
Gay
Bigender/Bisexual
Transsexual/Transgender
Queer/Questioning
Intersex
Androgyne/Asexual/Ally

I fit in there. I'm an Ally! :D

You mention a distaste for the term Queer. It is actually a label that many people use proudly. Here's a pretty good glossary from the LGBTQIA group at UC Davis:

http://lgbtrc.ucdavis.edu/lgbt-education/lgbtqia-glossary


Edit - UC Davis has a pretty good website! I downloaded one of their packets, and there is a diagram that has a graphic representation of the multiple ways there are to identify ourselves by saying, "I am a [insert sexual orientation] [insert sex], who identifies as [insert gender] and I present in a [insert presentation] manner. Any signifier attached to the circles can be used to form a unique and accurate identity! :)

For example, I am a nonmonosexual female, who identifies as a woman, and who presents in a feminine manner.

I chose nonmonosexual to accomodate my SO, who identifies as dualgender and not a man. Before I met her, I identified as straight.

You should all try this!

Oh, and the people at UC Davis said there can be more signifyers attached to the various circles, they just didn't list them all. If the way you identify yourself isn't there, just add it. The only circle you cannot add a signifyer to is "Sex", since people are either biologically male, female, or intersex. But anything else is expandable. For example dualgender isn't there, but my SO would say, "I am a straight male, who identifies as dualgender and who presents in a feminine manner. The "male" part of this ID refers to his biological sex and not her gender identity.

189669

[2B Natasha]

Thank you for all your well thought out responses.

While we may have been late to the party. Fashionably late I might add. Emphases on " Fashionably ". Still. I think I shall continue to put us first in line. I let enough of society for a long time shame me into a closet and hid myself away. Time for me and in turn us to put ourselves first.

BTW. I think that the gay community as a whole. Have done a tremendous job working for there rights. They deserve all the credit they can get for it.

[linda allen]

........The full acronym is LGBTQIA. Some of the letters signify several things.

Lesbian
Gay
Bigender/Bisexual
Transsexual/Transgender
Queer/Questioning
Intersex
Androgyne/Asexual/Ally


How about "CD" for cross dressers? This is "crossdressers.com", right?

[Jamie001]

We were late to the party?
Lesbians and gays have been fighting for their rights for longer than there was ever a T community. I know the queens were at Stonewall when the gay rights movement first asserted themselves in public, but even today, how many T people do you see out front fighting for their rights? I've got no issue with putting LGB ahead of us in the alphabet soup, they were the ones who led the way for the rest of us.

I'm OK with the Q label as our young people need safe space to explore their identities without fear of bullying.


There are virtually no "T" folks fighting for our rights, because they are too busy cowering in the closet. Really LGBT should be written with a very very small "T". It is so small, it is almost unseen. A sad fact, but that is reality.

[ReineD]

How about "CD" for cross dressers? This is "crossdressers.com", right?

People take it that the "transgender" group includes crossdressers.

... and this isn't an acronym invented by this website. There are LGBTQIA groups all over the world! :)

[Foxglove]

I fit in there. I'm an Ally! :D


Reine, if you like, we could give you a promotion. Make you an "Honorary Trans", for example. If this forum were to take a vote on that, I'm sure it would be unanimous.

Annabelle

[Bree-asaurus]

Can we just put us all under the queer umbrella and call it a day? :D

[Marleena]

Can we just put us all under the queer umbrella and call it a day? :D

Nah...that would be way too easy and the thread would die!:D

Let's add a new letter to complicate it even more.:)

[ReineD]

Let's add a new letter to complicate it even more.:)

That's why the diagram above is designed to be expandable by the addition of new labels. Anyone can add a new word to the existing circles, since so many people feel they are unique and the existing commonly used words don't fit them. :p

[Marleena]

That's why the diagram above is designed to be expandable by the addition of new labels. Anyone can add a new word to the existing circles, since so many people feel they are unique and the existing commonly used words don't fit them. :p

Oh.. I'm unique allright. in fact I'm one of a kind.lol. So once we think of a new label who's in charge of adding it to the LGBTQIA or whatever it is at now?

[Sheren Kelly]

There are virtually no "T" folks fighting for our rights,...... A sad fact, but that is reality.

To be fair, there are several people who are carrying the fight for TG rights (Mara Keissling and Riki Wilchins to name a few) at the national level, but I do agree that we are under-represented at the community level in the fight for rights. We have benefited greatly from the advances in LGB rights, though we have not always been welcomed as part of their agenda.

[flatlander_48]

Thank you for all your well thought out responses.

While we may have been late to the party. Fashionably late I might add. Emphases on " Fashionably ". Still. I think I shall continue to put us first in line. I let enough of society for a long time shame me into a closet and hid myself away. Time for me and in turn us to put ourselves first.

BTW. I think that the gay community as a whole. Have done a tremendous job working for there rights. They deserve all the credit they can get for it.

Yes, but note that it wasn't the LGB community that wanted you in the closet. It was society at large; not the LGB subset. Basically we ride on the coattails of the larger movement, with the exception of the transgender advocates who are out and workin' it.

I think the important thing to remember is that labels don't inherently separate. What separates is when people distort the notion of labels for their own purposes. What we should all recognize is that everyone of those letters represents a sexual minority. It could be who we are attracted to and sleep with or what our physical differences are or a mismatch between our sensibilities and our physical reality or how sometimes we may choose to visually represent 180 degrees from our physical gender. But, our strength is in how these differences define our solidarity. If there were no labels, how would we know?

[Bree-asaurus]

Nah...that would be way too easy and the thread would die!:D

Let's add a new letter to complicate it even more.:)

What if we have TWO Qs?!?!? OMG MINDF***!!!! :P


To be fair, there are several people who are carrying the fight for TG rights (Mara Keissling and Riki Wilchins to name a few) at the national level, but I do agree that we are under-represented at the community level in the fight for rights. We have benefited greatly from the advances in LGB rights, though we have not always been welcomed as part of their agenda.

In my local community, we do have several transsexual activists fighting in the political arena. Unfortunately... they get squeezed out :(

[ReineD]

Oh.. I'm unique allright. in fact I'm one of a kind.lol. So once we think of a new label who's in charge of adding it to the LGBTQIA or whatever it is at now?

You can just add it yourself if you ever decide you want to describe who you are to someone, as long as you remember to consider all four components of the self in your description:

"I am a [insert sexual orientation word of your choosing] [insert biological sex, but choose from male, female, or intersex], who identifies as [insert gender word of your choosing] and I present in a [insert presentation word of your choosing] manner.

The beauty of this model, is that it does not confuse biological sex with internal gender, it separates presentation, and it also separates sexual orientation. This one simple model has the power to accurately describe every single person in this forum, providing they use the words they are comfortable with. If everyone used this model to describe themselves, there would no longer be huge disagreements in these threads about definitions. :)

Granted, this model is mostly useful in a forum such as this one, where most of us understand that biological sex, gender identity, and sexual orientation are not tied together and further, there are umpteen ways that people choose to present themselves.

[linda allen]

People take it that the "transgender" group includes crossdressers.

Yes and many people take it that crossdressers are gay. I think if a poll were taken (I think it already has been), we would find that the majority of crossdressers consider themselves heterosexual males.

Not that there's anything wrong with being transgendered! ;)

Seriously, I appreciate the work these groups to to support acceptance of people who are different but at the same time I am uncomfortable being identified as "transgendered" just gecause I dress like a female sometimes.

[Foxglove]

Seriously, I appreciate the work these groups to to support acceptance of people who are different but at the same time I am uncomfortable being identified as "transgendered" just gecause I dress like a female sometimes.

I accept the problem with the term "transgender". It doesn't work perfectly for me, either, and probably for very few people. I accept the term because I interpret "trans-gender" as "crossing the gender line", and that's what all of us do in one way or another. For some people it might be in terms of clothing alone, for others it might involve SRS, and then for a lot of others there's some uncertainty as to how exactly they want to express themselves.

When I came out to my son some time back, I started out by telling him that I was "transgender". Then I spent about an hour explaining what the term meant in my particular case. Anybody who wants to explain exactly what they are might have similar difficulties. You, e.g., might tell someone you're a "crossdresser" (which is clear and simple in your eyes), but you'd still have to explain certain points--e.g., that you're not gay. The general public has next to no understanding of these matters, so no matter what term is used, we have a lot of explaining to do. I suppose we could split up into various groups and adopt different terms for ourselves, but as things stand, I'm not sure that would help us much. Whatever we call ourselves, people don't know anything about us. So whatever terms we choose, they're not going to mean anything to the general public until they come to understand us better.

Annabelle

[GaleWarning]

When I came out to my son some time back, I started out by telling him that I was "transgender". Then I spent about an hour explaining what the term meant in my particular case. Annabelle

It's a hell of a lot simpler if you merely have to tell him (as I would to my son) that his father is a guy who loves to wear stockings and heels.

It gets complicated once you start to get into a discussion about why other items don't really appeal to you.

Stuff the labels, I say. Each of us belongs here for the same reason.

KISS.

[Foxglove]

It's a hell of a lot simpler if you merely have to tell him (as I would to my son) that his father is a guy who loves to wear stockings and heels.

It gets complicated once you start to get into a discussion about why other items don't really appeal to you.



Yeah. It's just that with me, there aren't many items that don't appeal to me. And I found it did help him a lot to find out something about what was going on inside me. It's not a superficial little thing we're into. It's very deep in us. I think (maybe I can't be completely sure of that) that it did help him to get a glimpse of that.

Annabelle

[ReineD]

Yes and many people take it that crossdressers are gay. I think if a poll were taken (I think it already has been), we would find that the majority of crossdressers consider themselves heterosexual males.

That's so not true! Some gay men are crossdressers too!

Listen. Rather than debate endlessly about what "transgender" means, and what "crossdresser" means, why don't you simply fill in the blanks below using the bubble diagram I posted in #8.



"I am a [insert sexual orientation word of your choosing] [insert biological sex, but choose from male, female, or intersex], who identifies as [insert gender word of your choosing] and I present in a [insert presentation word of your choosing] manner.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that you will say, "I am a heterosexual male who identifies as a crossdresser and I present in a feminine manner.

Now. Someone else might say, "I am a straight male who identifies as bigender and I sometimes present in a feminine manner." Note that this person is a CDer too.

So is, "I am a bi male who identifies as transgender and I sometimes present in a feminine manner."

As is, "I am a gay intersex male who identifies as bigender and I sometimes present in a feminine manner."

And so is, "I am a straight intersex male who identifies as a crossdresser and I sometimes present in a feminine manner."

We can argue until we're blue in the face as to who should call themselves "crossdresser" or "transgender", but it really is meaningless since a whole lot of different people use the same terms to describe themselves. :p

[S. Lisa Smith]

As a teacher who witnesses and deals with what happens when students use offensive terminology against their fellow students, I abhor the way the words "gay", "lezzie", "queer" are used.

I demand that my students refrain from abusing each other with hurtful terminology.

When will we learn that people are all people who need acceptance, love, affirmation, acceptance ....?

Not as long as there are people who insist that we accentuate the differences between each other!

Bloody hell! It's been a while since I last felt the need to let rip! I couldn't agree more!!!!

[2B Natasha]

Hello again.

I REALLY didn't mean to get into Symantecs about it. I just wanted us, as a group, to be a bit more proud of ourselves. Plus. The GLBT or LGBTQ Or how ever you want to arrange it. But you see that was the point. The lesbians put the L First. The gay men put the G first. Why can't we put the T first.

BTW. I love the diagram from Reine in post #8. FUN!

[dallasmann]

I'm not bothered by the Q myself, especially it beats U for unknown.

[flatlander_48]

Hello again.

I REALLY didn't mean to get into Symantecs about it. I just wanted us, as a group, to be a bit more proud of ourselves. Plus. The GLBT or LGBTQ Or how ever you want to arrange it. But you see that was the point. The lesbians put the L First. The gay men put the G first. Why can't we put the T first.

BTW. I love the diagram from Reine in post #8. FUN!

Actually The Community put the G first. It was the rise of the Women's Movement that raised the consciousness and brought about putting the L first. These days I hear both versions, by both men and women.

[bridget thronton]

It was hard for me to acknowledge that I am transgendered - but that really fits me since it is a continuem

[Diane Elizabeth]

Why not TQGLB? or TLGBQ?

[Foxglove]

Why not TQGLB? or TLGBQ?

Because it's supposed to be in alphabetical order.

[flatlander_48]

Because it's supposed to be in alphabetical order.

That has nothing to do with it.

[GaleWarning]

I think Q should go in front, followed by U because U always follows Q, then ... well ... nah ... forget it!

[ReineD]

No. I think it should be Q, then U, then another U, followed by an E and last, an N.

... which, coincidentally, is my user name translated to English. :D :D :D