Advice requested ... work related

[Lady_Chaos]

Ok so its been a LONG while since I've posted here but I have a question for you ladies.

So Recently in Ontario they added that trans people were protected by the human rights code (back in June of this year). Great! about time right...

So with that in mind I told my HR rep that I wanted to crossdress at work a few months back (August), and wanted to be able to dress as a woman. She was first saying I shouldnt do it and it took a bit to tell her this is a part of who I am. She eventually got an action plan to help me and bring a consultant to help (she made a plan and never even followed it - skipped to the last step without consent). About a month ago, a specialist came into our office and talked to everyone 1 on 1 telling them I am a crossdresser and I want to do it at work ... shortly after that we had a group meeting where the consultant talked about the human rights code and other things. The other team members asked questions left right and centre about it and how it affects them and the business... Before the meeting I was all for sure to do it, after I felt bad for putting others in this situation and potentially loosing business for us (as our clients probably do not like this - mining industry). So I got lots to think about...

Afterwards it seemed like if I wanted to dress as a woman at work I would have to present myself as a woman full time ... initially this thrilled me, but in the real life when we deal with clients frequently it can put the breaks on it.

Today I finished a follow up call with the HR and she expected that after a month I make a decision without telling me I had to make a decision when she called (I have no idea if I can do it anymore, I want to but ???). I kind of left her hanging asking for a few more months (until the end of the year) before I can decide a step like that.

What do you girls think I should do? Ignore the whole thing (most of the staff treat me the same - a few took a while to talk to me again)... or dress like a woman full time (and no gradual thing - its all or nothing with them) ... ps - I have 0 experience with makeup and have a 5oclock shadow at noon - doing laser on my face soon).

Any help is appreciated. I feel as I need to reach out to others like me and find outlets not at work. my friends that are girls all support it and let me be me around them, one is even taking me girls shopping to try on things next week (maybe I need more outlets like that)... Ideas, opinions, suggestions, anything will help. :idontknow:

Jackie.

[Sara Jessica]

Gosh, this sounds like pink fog gone terribly wrong. The genie is clearly out of the bottle and what you choose to do with her is up to you.

Had you asked for advice before going to HR, I would have said "just because you can doesn't mean you should".

[KateSpade83]

I looked at a few of your Picture Posts and you look like "a man in a dress" look. I don't think this would fly well. I think you should just go back to wearing men's clothes at work.

[suzanne]

The look you display in your pictures and avatar says you are WAY closer to passing than I am, but that's not the issue here, is it? Is the job you have worth keeping? If it's in the mining industry, it is probably very well-paying. On the downside, it is also very macho. The point about possibly losing business could be very real if you are in contact with customers. It only takes one or two Neanderthals to make your life difficult. If not, you are likely in contact with mine workers, which could be worse for you. If they don't like you they can find a way to get rid of you, legislation notwithstanding. Possible excuses they might give could be: not being a team player, reduced productivity, excessive mistakes on the job, etc. I would bet that none of these are applicable in your case, but they could be trumped up by co-workers who just don't like CDers. And of course the CDing would never appear as part of the official record.

Like you, I also have a macho line of work; I am a machinist. Fortunately, the company I work for is considerably less macho than most, so I have found my own comfort zone. I underdress in panties most days. I have my nails done regularly: clear fingernails and a bright red pedicure. Most days, I also wear a necklace of white or black pearls, depending on my mood. I know it's mostly stealth mode, but I don't try to conceal the necklace or manicure and the point is I know what I have on and it makes me feel whole enough. This may not be enough for you, but my feminine side is not as dominant as it may be for others, either. (I am a Gemini so both sides want to participate in my life!) On days when I am feeling extra girly, I just slip into my favorite skirt and top as soon as I get home.

I truly hope you can get your workplace situation resolved to your satisfaction. It sounds like it might be a bit sticky right now, but you'll get through it. Good luck!

[Jenniferathome]

Jackie, in a classical sense do the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many? you mention that clients will be uncomfortable. I don't think anyone has a right to jeopardize the group's future. You are out now. Why not dress freely after work, weekends, etc and if you ever run into your mates, there will be no surprises.

[Miriam-J]

As others have expressed, you must be considerate of others - even if the law seems to say you don't need to. It sounds as if you have the 'man in a dress' bit down well, and that's bound to make pretty much everyone uncomfortable. If you want to crossdress at work, go all the way with makeup, hair, and shaving all around. Otherwise, follow Jennifer's advice and dress freely after work, weekends, etc. Since you're out there would be no worries about discovery.

Miriam

[heatherdress]

Just because you can do it does not mean you should dress or have to dress. If you have minimal experience dressing, you probably should not obligate yourself to a full time commitment which you might not enjoy. Good for you that you had the guts to pursue the possibility. Good for your company for being willing to support you. Good for Ontario for laws protecting human rights. But the timing does not seem right to do this full time. Be honest with yourself and your HR rep. I admire what you have done.

[ReineD]

I think the law was put in place to protect people against discrimination, who are or have transitioned and this includes having undergone major body changes through HRT (perhaps followed by SRS), and also having changed their names legally to a female name. In other words, the law protects transsexuals who do see themselves as a women born in the wrong bodies, and who see all their male sexual characteristics as birth defects, and who refuse to live as males.

I don't think the new law is meant for someone to switch back and forth between a dress and a pair of pants?

Are you transsexual, and are you taking steps towards transition? Have you begun electrolysis and HRT? Are you being followed by a medical doctor who is adhering to the WPATH standards of care for transition? Are you in the process of changing all your legal documents to reflect your female gender?

If you're not doing this, then I think it is premature for you to begin dressing at work. I'd wait until you're ready to never go back to guy mode, and then make the transition at work.

[AlexisRaeMoon]

I sometimes think how awesome it would be to be able to crossdress at work everyday, and then I think, "good lord, what a load of work that would be!" There are plenty of days when I roll out of bed, think about shaving and say, the heck with it. There'd be no getting away with that in girl mode! You need to ask yourself why you want to do this. Do you "need" to wear female clothing to work everyday, or can you find other occasions to let that part of you out? As said below, just because you can, doesn't mean you should...

[Stephanie47]

This all depends where you live. In the State of Washington cross dressers are protected from discrimination, including in the work place. The Revised Code of Washington encompasses ".......sexual orientation, including gender expression or identity...." There was a well publicized instance of a male wearing capri pants and feminine top. The law protected him from any discrimination.

I will agree a MTF transition "appears" to be more appropriate. However, the law was crafted to specifically include cross dressers. And, local ordinances in some municipalities go further than the state law.

Of course, the cross dresser really should be reflecting on why he would choose to wear feminine clothing to work.



I think the law was put in place to protect people against discrimination, who are or have transitioned and this includes having undergone major body changes through HRT (perhaps followed by SRS), and also having changed their names legally to a female name. In other words, the law protects transsexuals who do see themselves as a women born in the wrong bodies, and who see all their male sexual characteristics as birth defects, and who refuse to live as males.

I don't think the new law is meant for someone to switch back and forth between a dress and a pair of pants?

Are you transsexual, and are you taking steps towards transition? Have you begun electrolysis and HRT? Are you being followed by a medical doctor who is adhering to the WPATH standards of care for transition? Are you in the process of changing all your legal documents to reflect your female gender?

If you're not doing this, then I think it is premature for you to begin dressing at work. I'd wait until you're ready to never go back to guy mode, and then make the transition at work.

[Chickhe]

You are in Ontario,. I have a little expereince with the employment laws here... basically, the law only helps you if damage is done. I would say, document exactly what happened (times, dates, places, bring home printed copies of emails who said what...no matter how trivial is seems) in case things go terriblly wrong. They made a couple huge mistakes...first, they slandered you by telling the other employees you want to dress up and thats not true (you were just enquiring about it) and they breached your privacy. The damage done was that your working relationship with your co-workers changed and if it makes your job harder and you end up leaving the company then you have case against them for things like severance and damages. Its worth getting a lawyers advice if you are being put in an difficult position. I would say they are wrong to impose a deadline and they might be in big trouble if you did go a step farther and file a human rights complaint (which could be a huge cost to them) about how they acted so far... but its all new law and who wants to be the first test. Anyhow, sounds like the HR person was very unprepared and unprofessional....you could probably file a complaint with their association too, but maybe its best to talk to the HR person and tell them they were out of line first, you also want them on your side so I woudn't make any threats. They probably just don't know any better, you may have to tell them what to do. CDing at work is something that I bet a lot of people are unprepared for, so I would not expect a smooth road. The full time thing is probably because they only could find information on how to deal with the TS situation.

[ReineD]

The Revised Code of Washington encompasses ".......sexual orientation, including gender expression or identity...."

I should have checked before posting. Ontario law is the same, it protects from discrimination based on gender identity or gender expression.

http://cupe.ca/lgbtt/passage-tobys-law-historic-victory

My apologies to you, Lady Chaos! So now to answer your question, you just need to weigh what is most important to you and this all depends on the strength of your desire to dress at work. If you can go either way and you feel that dressing will impact the business' clients negatively, then you can choose to be in guy mode.

If you can't go either way and you need to present as a woman, then I agree that it might be easier on everyone if you go full time and I also think that getting rid of your beard shadow would be a priority. But maybe you can request a different job where you won't be dealing with the customers directly, if you don't want your gender expression to have a negative impact on them?

But, wouldn't your superiors or the company owners have a say, if they find they're losing business? Non-discrimination means they can't fire you for dressing the way you please, but if they take you away from the customers and put you behind a desk (if they find they're losing business), then surely they can't be faulted for protecting their business?

On the other hand, the more people there are like you who are willing to stick their necks out and dress publicly, the sooner the population in general will become accustomed to CDers and hopefully, in time, there won't be so many objections.

Maybe you can talk to your employers about all the different options.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Other issues aside, you are putting an awful lot of faith in a law to protect you. Just because a locality has an anti-trans discrimination law does not mean it will protect you (I have known a number of folks who fell into this situation, they were outed or went fulltime and were fired despite anti-discrimination laws, since they can always make up an excuse to fire someone.)

It is also a good idea to think about the fact we are in a seemingly endless economic depression and jobs that pay a livable wage are getting hard and harder to come by. If you are fired from your current job (they make something up to get rid of you), that is also another strike against you.

[Joanna41]

I happen to agree with the 5th post on this thread. If you are still weighing to dress or not to dress and if current clients may not be keen on your dressing....it may hamper future business with new clients. In this current economy do your needs or desires outweigh that of the companies to which provides you and everyone else there a paycheck? Loss of business would ultimately mean people being laid off I'm sure....sometimes we do need to think of others before ourselves. You can always dress after work hours and weekends without having a potential negative impact on the company and all who work there.

Joanna

[linda allen]

I'll make it short because the others have covered it. There's a saying about not pooping where you eat. What this means is, don't do anything that might jeapordize your livelyhood. Assuming you need or want to keep this job and crossdressing at work will interfear with this job, my advice is to give it up, dress like a man at wok and as a woman away from work when you feel like it.

Technically, the law may protect you but if you're costing the company business, they will be forced to find a way to get rid of you or hide you in the back room somehow.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Jacqueline, Be careful what you wish for !!

[BRANDYJ]

I looked at a few of your Picture Posts and you look like "a man in a dress" look. I don't think this would fly well. I think you should just go back to wearing men's clothes at work.

I don't mean to be cruel, but in all honesty Kate is right. You simply do not have the facial features to pull it off. Add that to the heavy beard shadow, I don't feel you could pass or blend in. I assume you are a crossdresser and not someone wanting to transition full time. With that said, I think it would be foolish and very risky to crossdress at work. Forget the law that supposedly protects you about gender expression. If a manager or company wants to get rid of you, there are hundreds of ways to do it that will not be protected by any new law. If on the other hand, you plan to transition, then regardless of passing or blending issues, then if the need is still strong enough, then go for it knowing that your job is in fact at risk. However I agree with those that think you are suffering a bad case of pink fog based on your own words in this and other posts. The sad thing is, now that you are out at work, whether you dress on the job or not, I feel you have already put your job in jeopardy. To be blunt...the world, let alone co- workers and employers are simply not ready to accept a man in a dress.

[Stephenie S]

A comment from the other side:

The work environment is not the place to crossdress. It would be nice to be able to wear what ever you want wherever you want. But work (the way you support yourself and your family) is generally NOT the place to do so. Almost every place I have ever worked has had expectations of how you should dress.

[MsRenee]

They recently passed the same law here not long ago. But the difference here is our state is a rite to work state which means they can let you go basically with no excuse. I had thoufht about going to work dressed , as my coworkers did know I was a cd had met me dresed one night for drinks. I just chose to keep it away from work. It may be the best if you did the same hun.
Renee

[Karren H]

I'm also in mining and it pays very very well..... Personally I wouldn't do anything to impact my company's bottom line or impact my carrier negatively.... law or not.... what I do off hours is one thing but at work... in the office... I am the best dressed person in the building..... suit and tie with a few fem accents.... even my boss doesn't wear a tie. I have developed an outstanding professional reputation and how I dress doesn't detract from that at all.... and it would.... I've seen it happen.... peoples perception of you depends a lot on how you look and not on what you do.... right or wrong..... if you really don't care about anyone other than yourself and your needs.... than go ahead......

[famousunknown]

This all depends where you live. In the State of Washington cross dressers are protected from discrimination, including in the work place. The Revised Code of Washington encompasses ".......sexual orientation, including gender expression or identity...." There was a well publicized instance of a male wearing capri pants and feminine top. The law protected him from any discrimination.


So, you're saying if an only occasionally dressing CD wants to wear a dress & 5" heels to work one day after dressing exclusively as a male...nobody can say a thing?
Sorry, but there's absolutely no way it can work like that.

[linda allen]

......So Recently in Ontario they added that trans people were protected by the human rights code (back in June of this year). Great! about time right...

So with that in mind I told my HR rep that I wanted to crossdress at work ....................

I've already posted my opinion about messing around where you work, but to add to that, I think you are missunderstanding something here.

The laws may protect a "transgendered" person (one who feels his or her body doesn't match his inner feelings and is in the process of changing his or her outward gender), but it's not a law to protect perople who want to crossdress at work or people who want to dress male one day and female the next.

If you really feel "transgendered", you would be dressing and living as a female both outside of work, and at the workplace. And you would be changing the gender on your driver's license, having or considering gender reasignment surgery, etc.

Then you would be protected by the law.

[cyndigurl45]

I only see one issue, please if someone else sees a flaw in my logic please correct me. There is a huge difference between cross dressing and being transgendered, where as cross dressing is, to over simplify things, is a man who wants to wear women's clothes. Being transgendered is, again to simplify things, is a person of one gender wanting to express themselves as the opposite gender. The new laws coming up protect transgendered people not cross dressers. Again I over simplified things but perhaps you get the just of things.

[Beverley Sims]

Nooo! I am sorry,
You do look like a man in a dress.
To take such a large step you do have to be somewhat passable.
Karren Hutton has it right again. Read her reply.
Me. Cding is a leisure activity that I can use away from where I live and I enjoy it.
Dressing full time is a big step and one you need to be a little successful at before taking giant steps.
I would say admitting defeat, for the company's cause would stand you in a better situation with everybody.
Every one knows but they are not likely to shun you completely and any bad patches could probably be mended. So think about it again and I suggest you go with the negative, supporting advice you have from here.
I feel negative advice from this site is genuine and with feeling where some of the positives are a little glossed over. Every body want's a good outcome for the cause and for you especially.
Lots of success in your failure to come out and I mean it whit the greatest sincerity.

Beverley.

[Lorileah]

What the law says and what clients/customers see and how they react are separate things. The business is in..well business. The business depends on money coming in. Even if your management was 100% behind you , you have to understand how the clientele works. In a perfect world, it does not matter. This is far from a perfect world. If you are someone who represents the company, then you need to represent in the best possible manner.

So bottom line. If you are willing to go all the way, willing to present daily in the same general fashion, then do it. If it is just a once in a while because you want to, then don't. There is "the law" and there is the "spirit of the law". Yes you have the right as noted by law. But you also have a responsibility to represent the company. All or nothing in this case. You jumped the shark already. Everyone knows about you in the office. Has that changed how you are perceived? Have you noticed that people are a little less likely to interact?

Nite above posts that say "just because you can doesn't mean you should" and ho people who even though they are TG take the whole over the one. Even IF you looked 100% feminine I would say no, not if you aren't all in. That does not mean you can't wear slacks that are cut more feminine. Or a blouse that isn't over the top frilly or lacy. Or shoes that are not clunky male looking (honestly notice how the higher the income exec, the less clunky and heavy the footwear and stockings). I would rely on your common sense. If something is telling you it isn't right, follow that feeling

[Marleena]

While this new law is a welcome one I can see companies asking to have it amended if Cder's see it as an opportunity to dress up at work. If enough employers complain they have way more clout than the LGBT lobbyists I would think. Now if you are out 24/7, TS, or transitioning on the job I see no issue with it as long as it doesn't hurt the business itself. This could end up being an unpopular law for the workplace if it is abused.

[Lady_Chaos]

Thanks for all the responses. I told my HR rep that I will hold off on CD'ing at work for now. If I choose to dress full time (yes that means work on getting rid of the beard) then she said it would be supportive then.

I guess I need more CD'ers to be open about it and let the workforce be used to it (just like women being able to be in the workforce, just takes time for people to accept change). Or the easier thing in my lifetime to win the lottery and not care about money anymore.

[Angela Campbell]

You look pretty young to me so I will pass on some advice I have learned through over 30 years of working in a corporate world.

1. The HR department is not and never will be your friend. Do not trust them with anything. They are not there to work to help you they are there to protect the company.

2. If a company...or someone with the authority within the company....wants to end your employment .....they will. Law or no law, fair or not fair. If they want to fire you they will find a way to do it. Good worker, or bad worker, it happens every day. If someone doesn't like you, you will eventually be gone.

3 Non acceptance of other workers will speed up #2

4. They have lawyers too. And they can afford good ones. They have already talked to theirs about you. They already have begun working on a defense for almost any actuality.

5. If you really want to transition and dress at work, take the time to become as realistically female as possible, you would be more easily accepted if you really look the part. Grow out your hair and keep it styled nicely, get laser and electrolosis, get on hormones and when the look is coming together start dressing the part. Do not consult HR or your manager about it. Just do it. If things get ugly HR will come to you. But remember they are not there to help you.

[Miriam-J]

Amen and amen to everything Almostalady said, with strong agreement based on my 30 years in the corporate world. HR is loyal to no one except those senior managers to whom they are are sucking up. They have better lawyers and deeper pockets than you can dream of. They can find a million excuses to get rid of you.

But I'm glad to see your post that you've decided to back away for now. That shows great wisdom at this point. Good luck as you move ahead.

Miriam

[Brianna612]

Do you want to transition?
Do you need to dress full time?
Do you really want to dress full time?

I think that we all have dreamed of dressing at work, however the reality is that it is not very practical. Remember companies are good at dodging laws. Just to let you know what happened to me after my divorce regarding child support. I had a handyman business and several regular clients. The child support office wanted a list of clients so they could collect child support. The paperwork was a killer for my clients and they dropped me like a hot potato. Needless to say I lost 75% of my business. Now the law says that they can not drop me because of child support, however they can make up any excuse to drop me. From then on I did not disclose any of my clients.

Be careful, just because the law protects you doesn't mean the company won't find a way around it.

[Chickhe]

There is a difference between Canadian and US. In Ontario, I don't beleive it matters what the business reasons are (the human rights trump anything else). The logic is that legally the customers are not allowed to discriminate either... so an employer would really be walking on thin ice if they treated a minority any differently than anyone else....even if their customers didn't like it (the customers can also be liable). And from what I understand the Ontario law does cover crossdressers. The main thing is, you want to keep your job and you want to not have to ever resort to testing the laws. Its better to error on the side of caution, save your CDing for the weekend if you can and if you do go full time, then do all you can to look your best. Its just a reality, actually try dressing full time for a week or two while you are on vacation and see if you can handle it, I doubt I could do it.

[sinderella]

I also work in the mining industry, I don't know how Canada laws are in regard to PPE (personal protective equipment) but here in the US there are stringent laws on what is required. The required clothing I've seen is not gender specific, the women pretty much wear what the men wear. Steel toed boots, eye protection, hard hats, fall arrest harness (all unisex). No shorts, sleeveless shirts or skirts.

With the exception of makeup, I see nothing the you could wear that says "female". Maybe breast forms or butt padding (that would make fall arrest harness' very uncomfortable and possibly life threatening if you should actually fall. I honestly see no gain in your desires. And I'm sure HR has considered these issues as well.

About all that you could wear would be undergarments, I do this already and have never needed to get permission or approval. I also don't have issues with my fellow employees. I really think that you've brought needless turmoil to yourself and your work place.

Now I might be all in when they make steel toed 5" pumps...all bets are off then sweetie ;)

[linda allen]

................. The logic is that legally the customers are not allowed to discriminate either... so an employer would really be walking on thin ice if they treated a minority any differently than anyone else....even if their customers didn't like it (the customers can also be liable). .........

Seriously? You believe that? Customers can walk away from a business for any reason they want to. If I walk into a Best Buy store and all the employees are white or black or Aisan or crossdressers, whatever, I can just turn around and walk out the door. And if I decide to stay and shop and I don't like the person who tries to help me, I can turn around and walk out the door.

Let's be realistic here.

[mmandy31]

take baby steps wear something simple until everybody is fine then step it up a notch then pretty soon nobody will notice you on what you are wearing just who you are good luck

[Angela Campbell]

There is a difference between Canadian and US. In Ontario, I don't beleive it matters what the business reasons are (the human rights trump anything else). .

Believe what you like but, If they want to dismiss someone they will. Law or no law, human nature does not change north of the US border. Remember you would have to prove you were discriminated against. Not so easy. They will never say the reason was what you were wearing. They can find other reasons, they can make life so miserable you will quit, they have endless possibilities.