How does internalized transphobia affect transwomen?

[ReineD]

This came up in another, current thread, and I didn't want to take it off topic by asking the question there. Two post-transition women mentioned that it has been problematic in their lives.

This surprised me, since I thought it was a phenomena that affects CDers. But, maybe my understand of it is wrong. I always took it that it manifested itself as shame in expressing femininity, for a person who has been socialized as a male. And also the fear of being read and being ridiculed, in much the same way that the football team will ridicule a boy whom they consider to be a sissy. I further thought that transwomen are immune to this since they are solid in the knowledge of who they are.

What am I not getting? Thanks for your responses.

[STACY B]

Pack Mentality ,,,Just like when your still in the Closet ,, An the guys start talking about Trans ,,CDs , What ever an you pile on with the rest just to fit in . So on the other hand you are in the girl crowd now an want to distance your self from the other new comers with the early stages of this problem an act like your just one of the girls an don't want or feel the need to start all over ,,,Been there done that kind of thing ,,, An just want to get on with your life an let the rest get there on there own . It's just human nature ,, Fight or Flight ,,, So instead of beating a dead horse all over again ,,They never understood the first time what makes people think they will understand now ? I understand it completely ,, You fought your fight an came out looking an acting womanly an with no traces of him left so why fight someone else's fight when no one was there in your corner ? I guess your just tired at the end of this road an want to get along an live the life you traveled so far an hard to get to just to be pushed back to the front of the line when you were walking out the door !

[Aprilrain]

All of us M2F TSes were socialized as males so it baffles me that you would think we would be immune to that socialization. Most of us lived well into adulthood as males often trying harder than the average male to prove our masculinity. Saying that we are "solid in the knowledge of who (we) are" is like saying we are islands unto ourselves. The fact remains that each of us has this past that effects us one way or another. If we are stealth we have to basically give up all those people who used to know us in order to remain stealth if that is not posible then we are relegated to being trannies. People simply do not believe us that we are really woman (or men) because there is nothing in their experience even remotely close to gender and sex incongruency. Birth sex is immutable to cisgendered folks so the minute they "find out" we are no longer just another woman (or man) now we are a freak. It dosen't matter if they "accept" us who cares if you don't get beaten or killed if the end result is that you are a circus sideshow freak anyway?

Personally I think Transphobia is the wrong word. I think trans-mysogynistic would be more accurate, It's more of a disdain and hatred than it is a fear of. If you would like a better understanding the book "Whipping Girl" would be a good read.

[Frances]

I should respond since I used it first in that other thread. By "internalized transphobia," I mean the fear and hate of one's own trans nature, and the feeling of shame because of it. It is not directed at others. It is usually fostered by the transphobia and/or homophobia of close relatives.

I knew I was a girl as soon as I realized that there were genders (3-4 years old). My father left for Africa when I was 4 (and never really returned). My mother started her 18 year-long cancer battle when I was 6. She disappeard from my life and I was placed in the care of others, including my grand-mother and my mothers's sister (and her family). These people recognized that something was wrong with my gender and started a life-long campaign to "correct it." My grand-mother was especially fond of negative reinforcement. She never missed an opportunity to denigrate any male who crossed some kind of gender line. Her vocabulary included the words: dirty, disgusting, faggot, should not be allowed to live, etc. My aunt prefered derision and physical violence (my grand-mother was pretty violent as well, though).

Throughout my pre-teen years, I thought only about somehow finding a way to become a girl one day. When I played with my legos or whatever, that is what I thought about. At thirteen, something happened. I masturbated for the first time. I found this picture of Raquel Welsh in a dance rehersal. I started fantasizing about being an adult female in society and being beautiful and desireable (young girls do this all the time according to studies, but it's called autogynephilia when an adult male does it). This provoqued a massive cleavage of my personality. I could be that woman for brief moments in a very idealized way, but the fall was very harsh. Afterwards, I would hate myself with great intensity and for allowing myself to contemplate this idea. I was a fractured individual.

From age sixteen, I started going to doctors to find a cure. I thought that getting rid of the sexual behaviour (fantasies) would cure me. The first doctor, a GP, suggested that I make my rib-cage bigger through exercise. I saw a psychiatrist at 20, but he was more interested in my eating disorder. I went to a renowned gender clinic at 28. Being into reparative therapy, they were very keen on curing me. It did not work. Cis-gendered people misunderstand so-called autogynephila and the complex sexuality of trans people, even mental health professionals.

The cure I so desperately wanted finally came when I repaired my fractured personality (years of therapy were necessary) and became one single whole person, no masculine and feminine duality, just one integral human being. That is when I transitioned.

The internalized transphobia is still there. It comes from early childhood after all, and is very engrained. The most obvious way it manifests itself in my life now is in how I don't want to be reminded of my transness (hence the desire to keep my stealth lifestyle) and in projecting this hatred in others minds. I automatically expect everyone who finds out about my transness to hate me and discriminate against me. It actually rarely happens (apart from my carreer, where it has been happening), and people are nice to me. But how can I not expect them to hate me for being trans when I hate myself for being trans?

Late transitioners, autogynephiliacs, non-homosexual transitioners, etc., are invalid concepts in my mind. The big differentiator is the presence of internalized transphobia. People with it will delay transition as much as possible and try to live as heterosexual* cis-gendered people until they cannot take it anymore. People without internalized transphobia transition at twenty and live happy lives in the correct gender.

*or gay, but since transphobia/homophobia get blurred so much that individuals usually suffer from internalised homophobia as well.

[Stephenie S]

I could not add much of anything to Frances's lucid and well thought out post. I did not experience any sustained physical violence as a child, but otherwise it could be my childhood and young adult life that she describes.

S

[Kathryn Martin]

As expressed in the other thread I am not sure that the characterization as transphobia is correct. I believe that it is a discomfort and often a hatred of self because of imposed expectations of both congruence of gender and sex as well as the behaviors associated with either gender which is a nurture issue supported by physiological realities (i.e. hormone physiology).

[Frances]

As expressed in the other thread I am not sure that the characterization as transphobia is correct. I believe that it is a discomfort and often a hatred of self because of imposed expectations of both congruence of gender and sex as well as the behaviors associated with either gender which is a nurture issue supported by physiological realities (i.e. hormone physiology).

Not transphobia, internalized transphobia. The first word is important. The description you provide does not clash with the concept of internalized transphobia as it is understood by mental health experts and trans activists/intellectuals.

[arbon]

I further thought that transwomen are immune to this since they are solid in the knowledge of who they are.

What am I not getting? Thanks for your responses.

Today yes - I have no shame or confusion about it. I know who I am.

But, just for one example, going back just 3 years ago when I confided to a friend how I felt and he asked me why I did not transition my response was because I thought everyone would hate me. I really believed that.

Being trans, having the feelings and thoughts I had, was a very bad thing and not acceptable. That is the way I had always felt about it and I was very ashamed. I used to hit myself, yell at myself. I was frustrated and terribly confused about it all, about me.

[Jorja]

I have been following this thread and the other thread with great interest. I have sat down to type a serious response several times now. The words just will not come out to say what I want say without sounding condescending, stupid or just plain wrong. That is not what is needed here.

For now, I will just say that you cannot change what happened in the past, you can only create the future. Internalized transphobia happens because of discrimination, ignorance and stigma in society. We do not have to live with it. Your transphobia is in your own mind. Once you defeat it, it will never bother you again. Perhaps a few visits with a good therapist might help you deal with it.

[elizabethamy]

I'm not going to explain myself until I understand myself, but I do want to underscore a couple of things said in this remarkable thread, and I hope several others contribute...First, it's not just the sexuality of transpeople that's complex and complicated, though that's an important point to make. It's the whole psychology of us, the very unusual, layered and complicated people we have made ourselves into through repression, avoidance, negative socialization battling against the true self, the occasional ray of enlightenment, the endless and usually productive process of self-discovery. We are hard to reduce to terminology, though it's very useful to discuss. The second point is to talk as the representative (poster child? pinup girl?) of late awareness. Late awareness is poorly understood - it's either a remarkably strong repressive ability, a supernatural quantity of obtuseness, or perhaps that combined with lack of exposure. Growing up, I didn't know what transsexuals were. Hadn't even heard about it until perhaps age 27 or 28. I grew up in a house of men, with boy cousins and a shortage of females in the neighborhood, on the school bus route, etc. Oblivious. Yet the "internalized transphobia" that's deep within me never had that name or even that clear of a manifestation -- it was just a good unhealthy dose of white rural Heartland fear of "the other," which encompassed a whole host of types -- gay, people of color, disabled, etc.

Late awareness means you start late. Not only do you have to decide what to do about your gender identity problems, you also have to unpack all those other phobias and feelings about "the other." I'll need live to 95 to figure it all out!

elizabethamy

[ReineD]

I thank everyone for your replies, but I am particularly humbled by yours, Frances. I think I understand better now, and honestly my heart broke when I read your explanation. Anyone who wishes to understand what transwomen go through needs to read your post. I am just so, so sorry that you (and others) were shamed like this by the people entrusted to take care of you, and I can well understand why it might take years, if not a lifetime for the scars to fade away. I wish I could somehow do something to help. :sad:

[Kathryn Martin]

Not transphobia, internalized transphobia. The first word is important. The description you provide does not clash with the concept of internalized transphobia as it is understood by mental health experts and trans activists/intellectuals.

I agree with you on this point with one exception. I was not transphobic and internalized that feeling, I just hated myself. No more though.

[Badtranny]

People without internalized transphobia transition at twenty and live happy lives in the correct gender

Brilliant. I have never heard a more succint explanation of why I'm a late transitioner. I'm not late because I didn't "know", I'm late because I didn't want to be a tranny.

I spent my childhood being called a faggot and a sissy, and then my young adulthood trying to prove them wrong. I made choice after choice to be unhappy rather than give "them" the chance to say "I knew there was something wrong with that fag". Coming out meant admitting to myself that I really was less than a man, just like "they" said.

Of course I got older and realized that a woman is not "less" than a man, the problem now is this pervasive feeling that I'm less than a woman.

Transphobia=Less Than

[Frances]

I agree with you on this point with one exception. I was not transphobic and internalized that feeling, I just hated myself. No more though.

You hated yourself for what reason though?

[Kathryn Martin]

Because my body lied about who I am


You hated yourself for what reason though?

[Saffron]

This surprised me, since I thought it was a phenomena that affects CDers. But, maybe my understand of it is wrong. I always took it that it manifested itself as shame in expressing femininity, for a person who has been socialized as a male. And also the fear of being read and being ridiculed, in much the same way that the football team will ridicule a boy whom they consider to be a sissy. I further thought that transwomen are immune to this since they are solid in the knowledge of who they are.

What am I not getting? Thanks for your responses.

It's a complex subject, and not being English my mother tongue, it's hard to me to write about it. But I'll try.

Human beings need to socialize, and the fear to be rejected often makes us to hide our tastes or our true self. For example, usually girls & boys act only to fit in the group.

I've been like this for all this years. I remember being a kid and playing with my cousin's dolls, even I asked for a doll baby for my birthday (I've pictures of me with it, lol). I remember wishing my boobs would grow, putting on my mom's wig and my aunt's dresses, I remember one day my mom told me that she preferred to had a girl (only joking) and I wanted to yell "I AM A GIRL" feeling very hurt, etc, etc...

You think it's pretty obvious what my situation was. Well, to me it wasn't! I didn't know anything about CD/TS/TG... I was scared and then at some point, I simply started to hide it.

Of course the problem didn't disappeared, I thought that being straight I could be with a woman and forget about all of this: WRONG. I've been with women, I had relationships and a girlfriend for several years. It was more or less ok except the sexual part, I'm too shy to talk about it, just say it didn't work.

At that point I surely must know, you think? Well, NO. I was still denial. I even started to think that it was just a sexual dysfunction, although it was pretty clear that I had no problem at all with the physical part.

So after many years being isolated and alone I came to a point that I cannot support it more.

Then I started to search for info, and then decided to try as a CD. I registered at this forum and started to try things. I was still on denial and almost wishing I was "just" a CD so I shouldn't to do any transition or surgery.


And finally, the night before telling my mom, I couldn't sleep at all. It was like 12 hours analyzing my entire life. Then, when I was about to tell her, it was just like if I finally opened the door, and then it was pretty clear to me that I was a woman. It was an act of pure honesty with myself. at that point I didn't have anything to lose, so the fear and denial all gone.


So you must think that FINALLY I'm solid in the knowledge of who I am?


NO.

I still think in the transition, and the fear of being ridiculed, of society treating me like a monster, like a freak, that I will never find a SO or anyone who will like me is so strong that I still feel the doubt.


It's so easy to think that you can ignore it and try to be happy, and even you can be happy in a lot of aspects of life, that it's normal to bury all those feelings and start to believe in your own lie.


Sorry for my bad grammar, it's very difficult to focus when you're writing this kind of thing.

[Frances]

Because my body lied about who I am

So... because you were trans.

I don't get your interventions (in this thread and the other one). Reine asked us to explain a term we used (Kaitlyn and I) in the context of our lives. I explained it as I understand it and used the pronoun "I" throughout. Why are you telling us that we are using the wrong term in two threads?

[Kathryn Martin]

Sorry, I'll shut up about it

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I should respond since I used it first in that other thread. By "internalized transphobia," I mean the fear and hate of one's own trans nature, and the feeling of shame because of it. It is not directed at others. It is usually fostered by the transphobia and/or homophobia of close relatives. <snip>

So much of this describes what i went through that it's actually hard for me to read

i handled some of it differently, both in my mind, and in my personal life...but its like you wrote out an alternate version of exactly what i went through

Especially the part about why I delayed transition as much as possible but could not take it anymore...

I also relate to the whole horror of wanting to be raquel welch, just like any other girl...only to feel nothing but rampaging testosterone and then the shame and guilt afterwards..3,4,5x a day, every day for year after year...i'd be in this head space where i felt good about myself, and at the end i'd have to look at myself and the aftermath in the mirror...ugh..

One thing i would add is that when i felt this way, I had NOBODY to share it with...NOBODY to cry to, NOBODY to ask if i was ok, NOBODY to compare myself to...that's why the concept of internalized is so important...this feeling has nowhere to go but inside


I am proud that I rose above my internalized transphobia to transition, but in all honesty, i didnt actually eliminate the feeling, i just transitioned despite it..

I feel like i'm an abuse victim, recovering from the abuse i did to myself..

[melissaK]

IMHO This is another award winning thread. I am deeply moved by some contributions.

Jorja I value your common sense approach, but getting over all the past damage doesn't happen in a session or two of counseling for most of us, well at least not for me. Just getting through my minds defenses and dissociations (emotional repression; memory repression) took awhile - like years. I have a spiffy IQ, grad school entrance exam scores among the few top percent, and a graduate degree, but none of that made figuring myself out any easier. I change what I can about myself, I try hard to accept the rest. :)

Frances, your story resonates with me. My sense of self was badly fractured by the collision of my inner feeling I was a girl and all the "you're a boy" programming that school, parents and society at large dumped on me as a child. Reine, all I can think is it really gets internalized at that age and interferes with "normal" personality development.

I'm way out of my expetise to say there's a pattern or not, but I have a good friend who to this day is haunted by his childhood traumas inflicted by a psychopathic father. Getting over those traumas and just forgetting them hasn't happened for him, 12 years with a psychiatrist and an MD as a wife, and coping with recurring depression and suicidal ideation is "as good as it gets for him." Which of course was the whole point of the movie by the same name. I know several others with similar long term damaged inner selfs.

While I can now see for the first time in my life how all my mental health issues come from those childhood events, and while I have made great progress in getting past this, I can still falter. And the why's take time to decipher.

Even at my early stage of transition I can see how much I want approval of a "me" that I barely know, and those around me know that "me" even less. The person people know is just the front that protected a little girl if that makes sense. Integrating those arrested development feelings into adult grownup feelings is a challenge. I dont have the years of experience as "myself" to feel very confident. Its hard to be strong and believe in myself. Put me around the Romans or doubters and I'll be be sorely tempted to be Peter and deny knowing myself three times before the rooster crows.

[Saffron]

It's almost scary to see that reflected on all the stories.

What I really hate is people who treat you like if you were becoming a woman. It's not about that, it's about your body becoming what you are. I hate it when they say "a man who wants to be a woman".

That's when I think nobody could understand it and all the bad feelings come.

[KellyJameson]

I think of it as being prejudiced against yourself with no chance of escape.

Prejudice is taught so in a culture that hates a specific aspect or for transsexuals the whole person you try to escape what is hated, loathed, disgusted by, rejected, ect.. which is you

By rejecting what has been rejected by others you walk away from yourself which stops self understanding because you reject your identity and try to adopt another that is the opposite of the one you are.

You cannot hide being a woman so "naturally" identify with other women and not naturally identify with men and as a transsexual may experience men from the same place women do.

As a transsexual woman it is very possible you will have homophobia because you feel as a woman the pull of the man (awareness as the other and opposite) but the repression of homosexuality in the culture is internalized and your own attraction for men is experienced as homophobia even though you are experiencing heterosexual attraction.

The culture is completely opposed to your existence and much of the culture does not even acknowledge the possibility of your existence.

Everything we do and everything we are is met with hostility so there is very little left inside that can be found and offered up that will have value to others.

Masculinity is intent on keeping "permissible masculine expression" locked in a very narrow range to keep femininity out so men can feel like men which is fine for men but terrible for transsexuals because it makes hiding more difficult increasing the damage that the culture imposes adding to the massive sense of failure, worthlessness and disease.

Internalized transphobia is others hate turned inward so you become prejudicial against yourself.

Similar to but much worse than the experience of hating your skin color because it is seen as making you less human and more primitive.

As always this is how I experience it and it may be different for others.

[EnglishRose]

It's still affecting me right now, in that I've only gone out in public presenting female a few times (though three in the last week). Women are expected to be shorter than 6'6 and I'm scared of being that tall trans woman that people laugh at. It's getting better but still.

(I know there are taller cis women than me)

[Bree-asaurus]

This came up in another, current thread, and I didn't want to take it off topic by asking the question there. Two post-transition women mentioned that it has been problematic in their lives.

This surprised me, since I thought it was a phenomena that affects CDers. But, maybe my understand of it is wrong. I always took it that it manifested itself as shame in expressing femininity, for a person who has been socialized as a male. And also the fear of being read and being ridiculed, in much the same way that the football team will ridicule a boy whom they consider to be a sissy. I further thought that transwomen are immune to this since they are solid in the knowledge of who they are.

What am I not getting? Thanks for your responses.

We're not immune. We might know who we are inside, but we're so afraid and so beaten down by social standards that we overcompensate and even try to convince ourselves that we are not who we are.

You see this with gay people too. It's becoming pretty apparent that the people that are most outspoken against gays are overcompensating for the fact that they just might be gay themselves.

[ReineD]

Sorry for my bad grammar, it's very difficult to focus when you're writing this kind of thing.

I understood perfectly, you did just fine. Thank you for sharing. :love:

[MC-lite]

Brilliant. I have never heard a more succint explanation of why I'm a late transitioner. I'm not late because I didn't "know", I'm late because I didn't want to be a tranny.

I spent my childhood being called a faggot and a sissy, and then my young adulthood trying to prove them wrong. I made choice after choice to be unhappy rather than give "them" the chance to say "I knew there was something wrong with that fag". Coming out meant admitting to myself that I really was less than a man, just like "they" said.

Of course I got older and realized that a woman is not "less" than a man, the problem now is this pervasive feeling that I'm less than a woman.

Transphobia=Less Than

This rings true for me, as does what Kaitlyn said. I hated myself because I always felt like I was damaged and hiding it from everyone around me. I also hated women for many years until I realized why.

Once I transitioned, I lost all of my self-loathing, and, in the process I lost all of my mysogony. I hated women because I hated myself. I hated myself because I saw myself as being a damaged, worthless man instead of seeing myself as a woman whose body is damaged (not figuratively...literally. Physically, I'm in between genders.)

It's funny, but now, my closest friends are women. :)
And now when I run into the occasional Transwoman, I smile because I have an inkling of what they're going through and I know how much courage it takes to transition.

[gonegirl]

What I really hate is people who treat you like if you were becoming a woman. It's not about that, it's about your body becoming what you are. I hate it when they say "a man who wants to be a woman".


Dear Saffron,

When I read this I understood perfectly what you feel because I feel/fear it too. I tried to explain it to my wife recently - that I'm still the same me inside and always will be me, but my outside doesn't match my inside and it's caused me a lifetime of disquietude. My wife, although sympathetic, finds this very difficult to comprehend. Thank you for describing it so succinctly, I'll try talking to her again and borrow your explanation.

Thank you again,

Mac

[morgan51]

This is an award winning thread and should be a header for this section. I agree with Frances description of child hood and abuse it is my childhood as well. I have only recently been able to get some internal acceptance and that after going fulltime, separation from my wife, estrangement from my sister, the plot seems to have no end. LOL Crazy how this has to work for me thankyou all who posted here. Morgan

[Jennifer Sophia]

This is something I am struggling with, I had a lot of internalized hate of myself. Now that I am trying work through things, this behavior is hard to break. I am feeling better about myself, but those feelings are still there.

[Jamie Ann]

Not transphobia, internalized transphobia. The first word is important. The description you provide does not clash with the concept of internalized transphobia as it is understood by mental health experts and trans activists/intellectuals.

We are getting the same misunderstandings over and over again. ALL TRANSPHOBIA IS INTERNALIZED. The first word is redundant. Presumably, those who use it are trying to say something about people who are distressed over what they think others think and how it impacts them and their relationships. But being distressed in not the same thing as being transphobic.

As far as I have been able to determine, “internalized transphobia” is used by only one notable group in the whole wide world (viz., WPATH). They are not representative of mental health professionals in 2012. Even the American Psychiatric Association has disavowed WPATH and its underlying premises. Others see that phrase as an implicit endorsement of blaming the victim (more on that below). Transphobia as defined by most researchers and other well-informed persons in 2012 means antipathy towards transgender expression and transgender persons. Moreover, that feeling of antipathy is internalized or else it is not transphobia. As used by well-informed persons, “internalized” means integrated into one’s larger pattern of cognition and emotion, i.e., something relatively stable. Antipathy based on some temporary circumstance or idiosyncratic provocation is not likely to be recurring and is not transphobia, even though it might have been directed against a trans person. A stable pattern of antipathy has been internalized or it wouldn’t be stable.


So how is the term “internalized transphobia” being used here? Oddly, most of what WPATH would call “internalized transphobia” does not even involve transphobia, properly understood. Self-hatred often is rooted in bullying by parents, pastors, or others. If a person behaves in a way that others would disapprove, she may feel guilty, even worthless. But to anyone who has such self-hatred, I would ask: “Do you feel disgust toward OTHERS who dress across gender lines? Are you inclined to bash OTHERS who crossdress? Would you ever attack OTHERS because they are crossdressing?” If the answer is no — if your self-hatred stems from not living up to the expectations of your pastor, your parents, or whoever — then you are not even transphobic, much less transphobic prefaced by a redundant adjective. You have not internalized transphobic thinking and feeling patterns. Transgender teens who feel depressed, anxious, or traumatized are only rarely transphobic. They are distressed, but not transphobic.

As just noted, even the American Psychiatric Association has disavowed WPATH and its underlying premises. In the feminist literature, its approach and surrounding vocabulary would be considered “blaming the victim.” A woman who has been raped and feels depressed, anxious, and violated is not called an “internalized rapist.” A member of a minority racial group who feels despair rooted in having been denied opportunities for which she is well qualified is not called an “internalized racist.” Like sexism and racism, transphobia refers to the victimizer, not to the victim. Victims may feel bad, but they are not to be called racist, sexist, or transphobic.


The proper use of “transphobia” is as a concept having to do with understanding prejudice, discrimination, and even hate crimes involving transgender persons as victims. For those who want to focus on the victim, “psychological victimization” is an accepted concept in such discussions and investigations; it refers to the depression, anxiety, etc. that may be experienced by victims of transphobia (or racism or sexism or homophobia or religious intolerance or …). There is no need for an additional concept that often is plain wrong in its implications. Those two encompass all that we need to guide our analyses. I would like to see the participants on this forum give serious attention to using transgender vocabulary properly and encouraging others to do the same.

http://toselfbetrue.com/transgender/glossary.html

[ChelseaErtel]

I took me a while (I'm 52 and just realized I was TS this year) to figure out who I was. One of the hardest things to come to grips with is the feeling of not belong to either gender. As a male, I've been fighting my feminine side all my life. But I have still be raised and lived as a male; married, had children and a job. I am not a typical male as I hate sports, going to bars - the usual guy stuff. But when I go full time and transition I will be closer to a woman, but still not a woman. I can never gain the experience of growing up a girl and turning into a woman. I can never experience the prejudices women experience or the years of just being a woman. That is something I can never capture AND I will always have the experience of growing up male.

So, I feel like I don't belong to any group. Right now I feel like I'm in limbo. I'm not 100% yet, still working things out with my wife, but I do go out as Chelsea and I no longer give a damn if I'm read or ridiculed. It's the other parties problem not mine. I'm just being who I am, and that is a woman.

I visit my 78 year old mother once a month as Chelsea and she told me that I have her walk, and I have the mannerisms of a woman. She even thought my voice was feminine when I was Chelsea. I felt good after she said that even though her opinion is somewhat jaundiced.

So, once I realized I was a women in a man's body - and it hit me like a brick - I was "solid in the knowledge of who" I am. My problem is balancing what I need and want with my family. I think the only thing absolute in life is there are no absolutes.

[ReineD]

We are getting the same misunderstandings over and over again. ALL TRANSPHOBIA IS INTERNALIZED.

No, it isn't. Transphobia is the negative reaction of biased people towards TGs. Not all TGs will internalize the bias to the point where they will believe the inaccurate myths and stereotypes they've been exposed to, and feel shame or self-hatred as the result. But, many will.



A woman who has been raped and feels depressed, anxious, and violated is not called an “internalized rapist.”

No, because rape is not a bias against her as a being, by a segment of the population that feels it is superior and that attempts to oppress her. Actually, this was called "chauvinism" and women's reactions to this likely would have been called "internalized oppression" (a belief there were many things that her husband could do that she coudn't). And then it evolved into "feminism". :)

Getting back to the rape victim, she will likely suffer from PTSD.



A member of a minority racial group who feels despair rooted in having been denied opportunities for which she is well qualified is not called an “internalized racist.”

Internalized Racism (http://www.rc.org/publications/journals/black_reemergence/br2/br2_5_sl.html)

Things have changed since the 1960s. But internalized racism was alive and well for a long time in this country, and it still is in some areas.

If you want to read about internalized oppression in general, here is a great link:

Internalized Oppression (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Internalized+Oppression)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

No, it isn't. Transphobia is the negative reaction of biased people towards TGs. Not all TGs will internalize the bias to the point where they will believe the inaccurate myths and stereotypes they've been exposed to, and feel shame or self-hatred as the result. But, many will.

I agree...

I guess i'm not one of the "well informed people of 2012"

[angpai30]

I still think in the transition, and the fear of being ridiculed, of society treating me like a monster, like a freak, that I will never find a SO or anyone who will like me is so strong that I still feel the doubt.
It's so easy to think that you can ignore it and try to be happy, and even you can be happy in a lot of aspects of life, that it's normal to bury all those feelings and start to believe in your own lie.


Being trans does not mean solidity in anything except for characterized misunderstandings of ourselves and the mistakes we have made in our lives leaves us with regret, shame, guilt and feeling angry at ourselves for waiting for so long to transition. The final push to transition is not because we are in a solid state of character it is because of our lives, how we lived our lives as men and tried so hard to be what was expected of us. The internalized proposition of life to be men and everything to do with being trans has been ingrained in our hearts, minds and subconscious, which leads to fear and still even misunderstanding of ourselves as we have still silent hatred for what must be. Our life's journey has brought us to this point of no return and as we struggle with our own identity. there are those who would make a mockery of our struggle and thus push us to leap and some don't rebound.
I am transitioning late because I thought of myself as clinically insane at one point to even consider being a girl. I as many on this form have lived our lives to please the social congruence of position characterized at birth... our role, our path, our responsibility to follow in the path of our fathers as men, doing what many believe is the right thing, the obvious. But I being trans found the social stigma to be demeaning on any level as it has lead to my own internalized problems. My family does not accept my transitioning as many other families do not accept their own for being different or walking among a different crowd other than intended for them.
Yes, we are solid knowing who we are, but we have paid a heavy price to know exactly who we are.

Angela

[max]

Brilliant. I have never heard a more succint explanation of why I'm a late transitioner. I'm not late because I didn't "know", I'm late because I didn't want to be a tranny.

By this do you mean ideas like
I can't transition because I'd make such an incredibly ugly girl
or
I can't transition because it will make my life even harder than it already is?

[~Emma D~]

I’ve tried to put how I struggle into words. My aim is to transition and I know I can’t survive otherwise.

I couldn’t find a truer two words to use about me than internalized transphobia. It sums me up 100%, and is along the lines a counselor told me where I was in my last chat.

I’m now 51 years old, married with two sons.

I came out at the age of 17 to my parents which went very badly. My first appointment with my GP at that age led to an appointment with a Gender Counselor, which they made sure I didn’t attend. Back then I knew who I was, I may not have understood why I wasn’t made right, but I dont think I hate myself.

At 22,my life changed when I was assaulted as woman, but the assault changed when he realised I wasn’t a real woman. I came to hate and hurt myself so badly that day, I don’t know if I can ever forgive myself for the pain I have caused since. My own transphobia started that day and has been with me every day since, it doesn’t go away and never will until I come to terms with my life.

Back then in 1983, I turned my back on myself to live, and started living the wrong life as a man, I married within a few years and we had two sons.

You make choices in life, as to whether my own have been right or wrong, I don’t know anymore. I can never say that my children shouldn’t have happened, I could never deny them, but at the same time, I see the pain I have caused my wife and I know she would have been better without me.

Over the years, the continual denial is getting harder to deal with. I go through the same battle day in day out, breaking point is coming closer as my sons have gotten older and I see some light in the distance.

When I present in public as a female, it just feels so right, nothing else. I realise what other people see, as I don’t look passable best part of the time. Simple fact is I’m not 22 anymore.

For me, internalized transphobia is there, fear, guilt and self-hatred go hand in hand.

From an early age I knew who I was, coming out in my teens and into my early 20’s was natural as I could ever be. I wanted to be female so badly, but, what do you dowhen you become afraid of being a woman. They say time is a healer, I’m not so sure.

I wish I had more courage and could just get on with it.

I hope this makes sense.

Emma

[Badtranny]

By this do you mean ideas like
I can't transition because I'd make such an incredibly ugly girl
or
I can't transition because it will make my life even harder than it already is?


I don't think it's that easy to answer.

I was bullied and called a fag a lot and the worst part about it was it was true. I was a fag. I was attracted to guys and I was a little too femmy for a country boy in Southern La. I did not want to be gay or femmy. I wanted desperately to be one of the guys and just fit in. In elementary school I was happy playing jump-rope with the girls but by Junior High I had decided to man up and prove to all those jerks that they were wrong about me. I even tried playing football for a couple of years. I wanted to be in band or drama but I thought that might make me look gay, so I didn't. My whole life slowly became an orchestrated attempt to prove I was a man. I didn't want to do anything that would cast doubt on my masculinity. This effort sort of reached its zenith in my mid 30's when I started to slowly accept some truths about myself. I hate to admit it but I was still doing things as a twice divorced adult that I was doing as a scared kid. I was making decisions based on how "they" would perceive me. The worst part about coming out to myself was having to admit once and for all that "they" were right about me. I didn't want them to be right. I didn't want to be anything less than a man. I came out as openly bi, then a few years later as openly gay, then a few years later as a gay CD, then about a year later as a TS. I think my very last grasp at resistance came at the end of 2009 when I decided I was just going to live life as a gay man and not ruin my life with a transition. That was a short lived decision.

[ReineD]

Wow Misty (and others who have shared similar stories). Just wow. Thanks for sharing, even though some readers here will not be able to understand. But some will, and your words will be here for those who can look past their own personal definitions. :hugs:

[Marleena]

We're not immune. We might know who we are inside, but we're so afraid and so beaten down by social standards that we overcompensate and even try to convince ourselves that we are not who we are.

Bree said it for me. Even though I'm on HRT I still have demons in my head, I'm not sure whose voices they are making me second guess myself at times.

I think some of the older girls will have a harder time with this because we had no information highway or support back then. Luckily things are changing for the better.

[Kathryn Martin]

And what would a self identified part time crossdresser know about "internalized transphobia"

A white man part time in a dress telling post-op trans women about their own reality. It's like the conservative right wing men redefining rape for women. For someone with such a low- post count, it is really arrogant to tell people that have walked the walk what's what and what not. Makes me laugh. The whole post reeks of a man telling the little women how the world works.

[Badtranny]

Makes me laugh. The whole post reeks of a man telling the little women how the world works.

LOL I was thinking the same thing.

Man in Black: You're that smart?
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.

[LeaP]

As far as I have been able to determine, “internalized transphobia” is used by only one notable group in the whole wide world (viz., WPATH). They are not representative of mental health professionals in 2012. Even the American Psychiatric Association has disavowed WPATH and its underlying premises.

Sometimes I wonder who reads what. Having actually read every bit of the APA report on treating GID, I find the SOC validated over and over again. The overarching theme of the report is that it is either impossible or unethical to conduct high-level (e.g., blind, double-blind, many types of clinical trials, etc.) studies on the transsexual population. Clinician experience, case series and reports, literature surveys, and secondary data analysis drive the recommendations. These cannot rise to the level of true APA practice guidelines, as a result, with the exception of one subset of the adult transsexual population. And what it cited again and again as based on clinician experience is the WPATH SOC. The report also points out that R7 is backed by evidences, even mentioning that 4 full issues of the International Journal of Transgenderism are devoted to SOC R7 evidences - important, since one of the APA goals is evidence based care. The report also points out that while WPATH is not an association of mental health professionals per se, it contains many practitioners.

Moreover, the report condemns the APA itself! In particular for leaving transsexual and gender variant people high and dry.


"While the existence of the diagnosis contributes to the stigma of affected individuals, the unintended result of the APA’s silence is a failure to facilitate full access to care for those diagnosed with GID."

While I'm happy to see yet another mental health organization backing trans care, especially medical necessity and insurance coverage, there is clearly an aspect of turf protection going on as well. I find the bolded portion of the excerpt particularly troubling as these are extremely common in the transsexual population.


"... althoughthe practice of psychiatry overlaps with that of other medical specialties as well as with other mental health fields, including psychology, it is distinct in many respects. In particular, the diagnosis and treatment of major mental illnesses (e.g., psychotic disorders) in which gender identity concerns may arise as epiphenomena are primarily within the purview of psychiatrists, as are the pharmacological management of psychiatric disorders that may coexist with GID (e.g., mood and anxiety disorders and the assessment of undesired psychiatric manifestations of hormonal manipulations). ... Third, it is likely that APA guidelines would positively impact the number of psychiatrists willing to provide services to individuals with GID as well as the development of opportunities to receive training in providing such care."

[Edit]

Oh, and one other thing. Regarding the professional use of the concept of internalized phobias, the APA report employs the term "internalized homophobia."


"... co-occurring factors that should be specifically evaluated, such as associated obsessive–compulsive features, delusions about sex or gender, dissociation, personality disorders, Asperger’s disorder and internalized homophobia."

[Hope]

Yes, I know who I am... Yes I know that I can never change being who I am... Yes, I find JOY in being trans on a regular basis... Yes I have lived here for going on 2 years, and I still have days where I look in the mirror and think "Who the he11 do you think you are fooling?" I still catch myself identifying with male characters in movies. I still catch myself using male speech patters on occasion. I still avoid spending time with a lot of other trans women when they reflect who I am a bit to much... particularly when they don't pass, or don't want to pass as well as I do.

I think what you are not getting is the life-time of social stigma about being who we are. I think you are not getting (because you have no real access to it) is the life time of femme phobia that exists in male culture (and female culture, but to a MUCH lesser extent). I think what you are not getting is the experience of having to live a life as something one loathes - and then when one finally tosses off the shackles of that existence - still catching yourself identifying with it. I think you are not getting the reflection in the face of WAY too many people (even though it is a very small number) that tells you "Oh right - I am a freak now!"

Personally, I don't have a HUGE problem with this... but I also don't think that being trans is something shameful... though obviously lots (most?) of us do. But even I have moments where I think "I really am just a freak in a dress."

[noeleena]

Hi,

Max,

Some of us,,, dont,,, transition we cant fact is what to a male or female, ????.......

we do have issues we have hardship & can & do loose every thing , we are not perfect in our bodys we have organs missing & some are both or mixed.

Do we live as a male or as a female,

You said about the ugly or not looking like a female or woman, you know how a sharp knife cuts quick clean & you know how it hurts after, okay the pain goes away the wound heals some times youd never know youd been cut,

SOME TIMES...... its pretty rough so not all of us have that oh , you look like a female . woman. about us, you'r right we have to live with that scar for a lifetime, yea i know what its like,

will i talk about the mind theres no need i said... scar.... we are scared there as well.

...noeleena...