Transgenderism and sexuality

[Nigella]

There have been a number of threads where the discussion of being transgendered and sexuality seem to be co-joined.

This is not just restricted to the crossdressers on the forum, but some transexuals.

The other side of the coin is that the statement "gender and sexuality are two different things".

So my question is, are we any different from the rest of society, where we have to justify our sexuality and for some this is done by using transgenderism as an excuse?

[sandra-leigh]

I don't justify my sexuality: I just report it. Or perhaps more accurately, mostly I don't report it.

As far as I can tell from studies, my sexuality used to be well within human norms for non-transgendered people. Nothing to excuse there.

Now, relationships rather than sexuality: my being TG does have potential relevance there, in that other people perceiving me as being somehow-not-male could help account for my difficulty in even getting dates. It's not an excuse, though, just a hypothesis.

[Jorja]

You will see in this forum the distinction is made as clearly as possible so that there is no question about what someone is talking about. Gender and sexuality are two different animals entirely yet can go together so well.

[Kathryn Martin]

Maybe I am totally dense but I don't understand the question can you explain

[April Lyn]

the best way I ever heard it put, and I believe it was from Jennifer Finney Boylan, was that "Its not who you want to go to bed with, but who you want to go to bed as" I think this sums it up for me nicely.

[Saffron]

What really opened my mind was that gender identity and sexual orientation are two very different things.

Please don't make fun of me, but I always thought that a TS woman could only like men. Then someday I read about larry wachowski (yes, The Matrix co-director) becoming lana, and that she was a lesbian!? It was a shock to me. I know it's just plain stupid but that was me then.

[Debglam]

We are made up of a number of parts and as others have said, gender is one aspect of who we are and sexuality (sexual orientation) is another. Separate and discreet. Hey, I'm also right handed and a mechanical genius!:)

[Kirsty_D]

What really opened my mind was that gender identity and sexual orientation are two very different things.

Please don't make fun of me, but I always thought that a TS woman could only like men. Then someday I read about larry wachowski (yes, The Matrix co-director) becoming lana, and that she was a lesbian!? It was a shock to me. I know it's just plain stupid but that was me then.


It surprised me, as I always thought I was seriously screwed up… I want to be a woman but I also want to be with a woman. I thought Transsexuals were exclusively homosexual. Once I discovered this was not the case the barriers to my own transition started to crumble.

[STACY B]

Homosexual ,,Heterosexual ,, Bisexual, Asexual ,,, I think it's all a bunch of Bull ! I think we are all attracted to a certain looking person ,,, No matter what the Plumbing may be ,,, An what reals you in is what behind the wrapper ,,,Not love ,,, The work is CARING ,,,When some cares what happens to you then you have got it beat . You can over come looks an attitudes ,, Mood swings an what ever else there is but at the end of the day if you CARE then thats all that matters !!! An when I say care that means all of it ,,, Truthfulness ,, Honest ,, Thoughtfulness ,, Always there threw it all ,,Never cut an run when the going gets tuff ,, Share every thing good bad an the ugly ,,An work threw it together an make it work with compromise an comunacation ,,, CARING !!

[Dawn cd]

Confusion exists in the outside community more than it does in the trans community, in the sense that people just assume all men who crossdress or transition are homosexual. We who live inside the experience are more aware of the distinction between gender and sexuality. However, because we have experienced fluidity between male and female, I think we more easily accept fluidity between straight, bi, and gay. We're more tolerant, in ourselves and in others.

[sandra-leigh]

I see that most people are reading the question as being about sexual orientation. My earlier reply, though, was about sexuality -- e.g., libido; actual frequency of sexual acts; kinkiness; monogamy (or not); broadness or narrowness of being attracted to others (e.g., there is a particular range of body types that I tend to find immediately exciting, which is some degree of narrowness, but at the same time, it is easy for me to see something attractive about most members of the appropriate sex, which is very wide attraction; my understanding is that there are other people who find only a few quite specific individuals to be attractive.)

[Bree-asaurus]

My sexuality has nothing to do with my gender. I came to terms with my sexuality before I came to terms with my gender. The only link they have is when I started exploring one lie I'd been living, I thought I should explore the others.

Frankly, I think both should be a non-issue. You are what you are and you're attracted to what you're attracted to. It's how you were born... so big F-ing deal!

:D

And yeah... the rest of the world is far more confused about my gender and my sexuality than I am. It's all pretty darn clear to me!

[KellyJameson]

Some people begin as heterosexuals and die as heterosexuals, others begin and die as homosexual and still others start out one way and end another. Most who tell me they are heterosexual also admit to experimenting when they were younger.

Strip away all cultural influences and I suspect there would be far more sexual fluidity.

Biology is not the only influence on sexuality but it is an influence and for some the biology is the only influence but sexually I think they make up the minority.

Most people seem comfortable with their gender identities and in my opinion gender identity is much more fixed than sexuality and I believe this goes deeper into a biological expression that society than reinforces or acts against.

If you look at intersexed conditions where it was common to use surgery to build a vagina because it is easier to "digg a hole than build a pole" this often resulted in gender dysphoria and now they are looking at androgens as a marker for deciding on what surgery to perform.

My own opinion is that there are similar forces at work that shape identity and sexuality but sexuality is less of our biology than identity is.

Identity is like a lock that only one key will fit into to unlock it. You do not choose destiny it chooses you.

Many talk about not having a gender identity but I think they can say this because they have never lived without one so are coming from a place where they do have one whether they recognize it or not, saying you do not have a gender identity is a luxury.

[Bree-asaurus]

Strip away all cultural influences and I suspect there would be far more sexual fluidity.

Yuppers. I did a bit of experimenting myself (part of it was forced I guess), but that's how you find out what you like. And when you do experiment, you realize that attraction can go further than a small patch of flesh between the legs.

I consider myself straight. I'm attracted to men, physically and emotionally, first. But I believe that the right person, regardless of their gender or their physical parts, could win my heart. It's happened twice. Hopefully this second one is the last :D

[Inna]

Inna"s take on this............I think................

Sexuality is how someone perceives attractiveness of another. Feeling is external, as it refers to someone other then self. It can be expressed in attraction to one or dual gender.

Gender is how someone knows of their core being and it is internal, it is a foundation upon which one builds relationship with the world, without clear knowing of such, world is faint and illusive. Gender can stimulate individuals clarity as to their role in societal hierarchy including their sexual role, sometimes misleading their actual sexual character outside of societal norm.

Society at large has no clue how gender dysphoria works, why should they, they know exactly who they are from day one, and labels such as Transsexual or Sex reassignment surgery, do not help the least as they contain misleading connotations to sexuality.

Gender is a house foundation, where sexuality is the color of the roof! both a part of house yet function wise, worlds apart!

[Aprilrain]

It surprised me, as I always thought I was seriously screwed up… I want to be a woman but I also want to be with a woman. I thought Transsexuals were exclusively homosexual. Once I discovered this was not the case the barriers to my own transition started to crumble.

If you're a woman who likes woman then you're a homosexual. If you're like me, a woman who likes men, then you're heterosexual. If you're a man in a dress who likes woman then you have issues:lol:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I"m not sure where you are coming from on this...I have to admit that i have a negative reaction to the question...maybe i don't understand the question??

_____________________


"transgenderism as an excuse to justify sexuality" huh???? for transsexuals??? This highlights again why its hard to accept that people think transsexuals and "transgenderism" are the part of the same thing...

Transsexuals do not tend to say their identity is cojoined with their sexuality...and if they do, over time and transition they almost always figure out that its not.

Do transsexuals have conflicted internal feelings over their sexuality? yes
Do we confuse ourselves as we muddle through our lives and try different partners as part of learning what we are all about?yes
Do MTF transsexuals date and fall in love with women as part of their attempts to live a male life? yes
.. but that's not what you asked about...

[Aprilrain]

I"m not sure where you are coming from on this...I have to admit that i have a negative reaction to the question...maybe i don't understand the question??...

That's because the ops question?, statement?, assertion? Makes no sense.

[Nigella]

Maybe this will clarify the points/questions


are we any different from the rest of society, where we have to justify our sexuality

Non trans people who are openly bi-sexual, homosexual or even asexual justify their sexuality because it is different from societal norms, are we any different, do we justify our non conformist sexuality?


and for some this is done by using transgenderism as an excuse?

How many trans people use their transgenderism as an excuse for differing from the norm, rather than accept that they are different. This can be substantiated by the number of times we see "I'm bi when dressed"

[Frances]

Maybe this will clarify the points/questions

Non trans people who are openly bi-sexual, homosexual or even asexual justify their sexuality because it is different from societal norms, are we any different, do we justify our non conformist sexuality?

How many trans people use their transgenderism as an excuse for differing from the norm, rather than accept that they are different. This can be substantiated by the number of times we see "I'm bi when dressed"

I don't get this thread or line of questioning. Trans people have a different sexuality naked than when they are dressed?

[DebbieL]

Gender Identity and Sexual preference are probably unrelated and probably both established at a very early age, but there are many cases of transsexuals who have transitioned their gender and as their gender changed, their began to change as well. There may be a number of reasons for this.

It's very likely that our "Natural State" is to be bisexual and bi-gender. Gender behavior is often imposed based on perceived gender. When researchers took a boy baby or toddler and dressed him in pink, people would treat him like a girl, remarking how pretty she was, how she would be a heart breaker, ... Conversely, girls dressed in blue were often treated more like boys, often allowed to fight, and treated more "tough". Children often confuse dress and relate to both parents with love.

As we grow older, the pressure to conform to gender becomes more intense, often both our REAL gender and REAL preference are things that are established at a very young age, usually by the time a child is 4-5 years old, they become aware of both their gender and preference. If they are "Normal" - then it's just how things are. For a child who is gender conflicted or homosexual, they my feel shame or guilt for being different. They may feel isolated because they want to play with the girls but are forced to play with the boys. When boys don't seem to behave like the culture thinks boys should behave, they become targets of violence. A boy who would rather play with girls is considered a "Sissy". The pattern goes even deeper though. Boys who cry, who giggle too much, who don't fight back, who don't engage in physical violence, who are too friendly to girls, and so on, are generally targeted for acts of violence. The violence may be perpetrated by a few bully boys, or, if the boy is enough of a "Sissy" - the majority of the boys will violently attack the "Sissy". Ironically, this can actually make the Sissy boy even more inclined to hate being a boy, to wish to be a girl, and to hate boys in general.

Often, sexual preference becomes an issue as they get to puberty. As children, the boys stayed with the boys, and the girls played with the other girls. Often, each group would exclude the other, there were "no boys allowed" in the girls club, and "no girls allowed" in the boys club. Initially SOCIAL preference was primarily homosexual. In middle school or Jr high, just as the boys are starting puberty, the ritual of going to gym class, working up a sweat, then going and taking showers with a bunch of other boys becomes a daily ritual. Homosexuals may be aroused, but there is such a sensitivity, a sense of feeling unnaturally vulnerable, that any indication of homosexual interest will be discouraged - usually the bully boys or the jocks, often under the DIRECTION OF THE GYM TEACHER, will encourage violence against any who don't conform to male gender and heterosexual norms. This includes flushing out the abnormals by making lewd comments about the girls with the largest breasts, the nicest legs... and seeing who does NOT respond. Those who do not "norm up" and participate in actively verbally lusting after these women - become targets for violence.

Often, around high school, the sissy boys become attractive targets for the homosexual men. The homosexuals are looking for "safe dates", and often assume that a very effeminate boy will be open to their advances. The effeminate boys may have completely disliked boys by this point, having only a small handful of male friends, and lots of female friends. They are often flattered by this positive attention. Some will respond to the positive attention and begin to explore the homosexual lifestyle. Other effeminate boys have been so scarred, bruised, and terrorized by boys that such an approach may just be too threatening. They will resist or avoid, sometimes going deeper into their own isolation. When I was in high school, many young men came on to me, but I had zero interest in being a boy or kissing a boy. On the other hand, I had so many boys come on to me that I started introducing them to each other, and before long was accepted as part of the gay community in school, even though they knew that I wasn't actually attracted to men. Some of the boys assumed that I was still hiding my sexual preference in the closet, but they didn't understand sexual identity in the closet.

Many of us find that we are sexually aroused when we dress in certain clothing. Dressing is such a rare experience, so fraught with fear of getting caught, that we often dress only in private, only for short periods of time. When we do, we want to be as pretty and sexy as any girl, because we can only do it for such a short time. Since we have had no experience of being out in public when dressed too sexy, it's easy to be so sexy that we can be aroused by our own reflection. I remember when my father first showed me some pictures from Playboy Magazine - as part of the birds & bees conversation. He was a bit concerned when I showed very little sexual attraction when I looked at pictures of completely naked women, but when I saw similar women in garter belts, stockings, and bra, I was more interested and he assumed that I was safely heterosexual.

This link between clothes, gender, and sexual arousal often leads many transsexuals and transgenders to hope that if they got married, and started having sex on a regular basis, that they would lose the desire to dress, and lose the desire to be a girl. In many cases, we would even try harder to hide our feminine side in hopes of attracting a woman who would be willing to dress the way we wished we could be dressed. In some cases, women who saw our effeminate nature misunderstood that for submission. Some women, looking for men to dominate, would seek out effeminate men, thinking they would be easier to "domesticate". For many transsexuals and transgenders their discovery of the dominant/submissive play was accidental, often because they were attracted to the sexy clothing worn in these magazines. They would see pictures of beautiful women in stockings, heels, corsets, and they were dominating other men or women, or the images were of the women alone, but they described wanting to dominate men. Many transsexuals and transgenders, already struggling with years of shame and guilt over hiding their sexual identity, their unusual needs, actually find the prospect of a woman who wants to dominate them to be attractive. Many transgender magazines have themes of forced cross-dressing, forced womanhood, or "petticoat discipline". The theme of being forced by a woman to act and dress like a woman after all these years of being forced to act and dress like a man, is often appealing.

Often, it isn't until well after being married for a while that a transsexual realizes that the sexual activity is not enough. They may continue to keep their dressing a secret, even from their own wives, but they will gradually dress more often, volunteering for business trips, then packing for both the boy and the girl. They may eventually have a stash of clothes that they keep hidden from their wives, carefully concealed. Some men even go so far as to buy entire wardrobes while on the road, which they dispose of before coming home.

Ultimately, the transsexual is confronted with their own world of deception. It may be that their wife finds their stash, or a picture of them en-femme shows up at work, or in a location where it can be seen. Often, the secret is so well kept that people won't even believe the evidence in front of theme. Through the years, the transsexual spends most of their lives desperately wanting to live honestly, to be the woman they have always wanted to be. At the same time, the terrors of very real violence, very real trauma, and horrible consequences have made the mere thought of discovery, of "coming out", of letting their secret be known, is so frightening, so terrifying, and so horrible that they will do almost anything to prevent that discovery. The conflict often gets so intense that they become suicidal. The prospect of living the rest of their very long life trapped in a man's body is enough to make a quick and relatively painless death, with perhaps the hope of reincarnating as a woman, far more appealing. Conversely, the prospect of discovery, and all of it's horrible consequences, can be equally terrifying. Many transsexuals have to face the very real prospect that they could lose their parents, siblings, wives, children, jobs, careers, friends, support from spiritual communities, and might even have to face jail, or institutions - could be so terrifying that they are ready to take their own lives.

However, when they finally do come out, literally everything changes. In many cases, they do lose friends and family, their wives may be supportive, suspecting all along, or they may be so upset by this ultimate deception that they feel they can't trust him/her anymore. The old slips away, soon to be replaced by the new. Often, at this point, they are willing to get therapy, and therapists who understand gender identity issues will help them sort out their sexual identity. The therapist gives homework, like "go to at least one gay bar or gay social event this week" another week it might be a lesbian environment, and another week it might be going to a heterosexual environment, they may be asked to go to each place as both a boy and as a girl, so they can experience the world relating to them as male and female. Over time, the therapist has them spending more and more of their time in the female role. At some point, it becomes clear to both therapist and patient that transition may be indicated, and HRT is started.

Ironically, the beginning of permanent transition can bring out even more pressure to conform. The ex-wife might try to have visitation revoked, an employer might start a campaign of negative feedback designed to tear down confidence and get the TS to voluntarily resign. If the TS was part of a church or religious community, that group may try even harder to "bring them back into the fold" - on condition that they stop the transition. In addition, some of the most physically painful parts of transition, electrolysis, laser hair removal, waxing, diet, exercise, and so on.

At some point, after living as a woman full-time, the situation begins to change. Men start treating her like a beautiful woman rather than a guy in a dress. They are more polite, more respectful, some are even romantic. Women start to treat her as "one of the girls" inviting her to social events, shopping excursions, even bridal showers and baby showers. Often, for the first time in her life, the MtF, now living as a woman, actually feels comfortable in her own body.

For those who complete SRS, they finally have the freedom to live as the women they have always wanted to be. They are able to enjoy their own sexuality, and now that they don't have to worry about a guy being shocked by the c*ck, they can be more open to romantic advances from men. They can take their time, they don't have to rush into anything, and may even consider getting married to a man.

It's not a bed of roses though. They may feel the need to keep the fact that they were once men as much of a secret as possible, some may even be tempted to try and keep that secret from their boyfriends or husbands. They are also far more aware of discrimination, harassment, and lack of respect from other men, because at one time, they had the respect that one man gives another man. They may be more aware of being sexualized by men who are not attractive to them. They may even experience groping or other sexual assaults for the first time. Not wanting to blow their cover, they be inclined to "let it slide", which makes them seem even more "available" to that kind of advance.

The other problem, especially for transsexuals who transition later in life, is that they don't get to be the young and beautiful women they have always wanted to be, they are older women who have to dress more conservatively, act more aggressively in business, and often have to take pay cuts and/or demotions in the process of transition. They may even find that they have to work harder - in addition to having to manage their presentation as a professional woman. They no longer have the option of switching back to "Man Mode".

In the long run, I have not heard of many transsexuals who have completed transition and wished they had never transitioned. They seem to be happier, more at peace, and comfortable in their own skin. This may be because the mortality rate of transsexuals who do NOT complete transition is so high that those who do complete consider themselves lucky to be alive at all.

[Aprilrain]

This can be substantiated by the number of times we see "I'm bi when dressed"

this is strictly a CD phenomenon and has nothing to do with TSes at all IMO.

[docrobbysherry]

this is strictly a CD phenomenon and has nothing to do with TSes at all IMO.
I agree completely, April. Fantasizing u r a woman courted by a man simply reinforces the, "I feel like a woman", fantasy for CDs. I had those same fantasies when I began dressing 15 years ago and assumed I was gay or bi.

However, I eventually determined since I've never been attracted to a man, that I'm straight. I think many CDs enjoy this fantasy when dressing. But, like me, few would actually explore that fantasy. If they do and enjoy the experience, regardless of how they're dressed, I believe they r gay or bi. Whether or not they'll admit it. I don't think u can't change who you're attracted to simply by changing your clothes, Nigella.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

yikes
"I'm bi when dressed"...is this like when i put clothes on i become bisexual??...

One can wonder when a crossdressing guy likes men when they dress what that means, but it has nothing to do with TS people...

once again, its a perfect example of the whole TG umbrella thing and how somebody like me gets drawn into a situation where broad brush thoughts about "sexuality" are somehow related to whether i am male or female, and whether i am living in my correct gender..

and it allows a huge opening to enemies of transsexuals that view the whole concept that i exist as some sort of sordid sex thing...

[kimdl93]

two part question. The first part - so many people hold erroneous ideas about a linkage between transgenderism and sexual preference. So, its a common thing for people to assume I'm gay because I'm TG. On the latter question, I have no idea what may motivate individuals. I personally doubt that people present themselves as TG to justify their sexual preference.

[DebbieL]

Sexual preference and sexual practice are often far less defined than we'd like to admit. For example, I might be very sexually attracted to tall women who are wearing short skirts, high heels, satin tops, dark hose, and nice make-up, but if they aren't acting interested in me, then in practice, I'm not going to get involved with her. On the other hand, if a woman in baggy pants, boyish shoes, and a baggy shirt comes up to me and tells me that she wants to dress me up and have kinky sex with me, I'm very likely to take her up on her offer. In fact, the few times I HAVE had such an offer, I have almost ALWAYS accepted and didn't regret it.

Now, if a very handsome man who was very gentle and very nice told me he saw my picture in a web site and wanted to dress me up in a beautiful wardrobe, have wild and kinky sex every night, and wanted to get me started on hormones so I could have nice big breasts - There may have been times in my life when I would have very seriously considered such an offer, and probably would have accepted it.

To me the worst situation is a woman who dresses like Debbie, looks sensational, and then uses her looks to get free dinners, car repairs, other financial considerations, but rarely if ever actually provides any sexual satisfaction. I'm actually thinking of my first wife. The only time she really dressed up was when she wanted something VERY EXPENSIVE. A trip to Denver, a car, relocate to Denver, a house, a new boyfriend...

Monica Lewinski was able to seduce Bill Clinton because she had actually read Jennifer Flower's book, she know Clinton's kinks, his past issues, and his secret hot button. She knew that if she could get 30 seconds alone with him, he didn't stand a chance of resisting.

Consider the possibility of a woman you did not find sexually attractive offering to take you home, get you dressed in your favorite clothing, take you out for dinner, dancing, and then make love to you all night long while you were still wearing the dress - maybe even add in a bit of bondage or one of your other favorite kinks - would you turn them down? Let's assume you weren't married and there were no impediments.

Now, consider the same offer from a very attractive and handsome man, who treats you like a beautiful woman, and when he makes love to you, you have hours of pleasure. Would you consider that offer?

I've often thought that if I had been out, fully dressed, and was still drinking, there is a very good chance I would have succombed to the charms of at least a few nice attractitve men - especially if they wanted DEBBIE instead of Rex.

[kellycan27]

I personally doubt that people present themselves as TG to justify their sexual preference.

What about those people who wish to be treated like a woman when they are dressed, and according to them wouldn't touch a man with a ten foot pole when in drab? Aren't they using their dressing to justify being with a man? "it's not gay because I am a girl". Just as there are a lot of str8 chaser types who justify having sex with a guy in a dress, because he presents as a woman.

[KellyJameson]

Those that identify as men who crossdress that say they are bi when dressed are using the clothing to heighten that which is already inside them and than use the clothing as an excuse to give themselves permission to do what they want to do but have not allowed themselves to do so I see them as not having accepted their sexuality.

I am completely neutral about others sexuality unless I care about them and see their behavior as being destructive. I'm just as comfortable with gay men as straight and never has a persons sexuality influenced my desire to associate with them or not.

I respond to people by being aware of how they affect my body and mind and I have never been sexually interested in a man who is gay but twice I have in men who are straight which of course meant there was nowhere to go with it.

I feel a different "vibe" from straight men than gay that resonates with something inside me and I have never experienced this "vibe" coming off a woman because they are to much like me so not different in ways that would cause me to be aware of them. It is easy to have women as companions but I cannot bond with them sexually because they cannot reach and touch something deep in my mind.

For me being transsexual does affect my sexuality but on the deepest level where I sense this person is my opposite or what I think of as yin and yang soul mates.

Sexually people try on many people and have many different types of experiences but if you are looking for connection that touches your core there will have to be an alignment between opposite energies and this experience is much more difficult to find for transsexuals in my opinion.

Sex can be the release of sexual tension so lives on the surface and emotional connection to the other person is not necessary but for me I have always longed for this emotional connection but was blocked by my body because I cannot touch the other person in the most important ways (intimacy) so cannot build a life together.

I do not care about justifying my sexuality I just want to be released from it by being released from the body that prevents it. I have to be complete before I can attract my opposite and until this time I have to accept a loveless existence imposed on me by that which I have no choice over.

[Marleena]

Well I was telling everybody I'm straight, but I'm not! Once I started to transition I became a lesbian.:heehee:

Now I'm reading that sometimes people on HRT change their sexual preference. So I could become straight again so just put me down as confused with an excuse.:D

[Saffron]

Now I'm reading that sometimes people on HRT change their sexual preference.

Changed it or simply made them to be more open about their sexuality?

For example I clearly like women. But I do find men like Ryan Gosling or Jeremy Renner attractive. not to the point of doing something, I just think they're sexy. And you can have a crush that it's not purely sexual. I wouldn't call this bi, since all the sexual act is out of the question.

[Marleena]

Changed it or simply made them to be more open about their sexuality?

For example I clearly like women. But I do find men like Ryan Gosling or Jeremy Renner attractive. not to the point of doing something, I just think they're sexy. And you can have a crush that it's not purely sexual. I wouldn't call this bi, since all the sexual act is out of the question.

Hi Saffron it was a case study of TS women that started HRT. A couple of them "changed" their sexual preference. No explanation was given so it could probably be easily discredited. I need to find the article again.

[Thera Home]

Oh my gosh

My freakin head hurts from reading all this..................:eek:

Don't worry,I think you's guys are all circles just like me:heehee:

Thera

[Laurie Ann]

WOW what great insights into the difference of gender and sexuality. I only hope that I can offer something that makes sense to all here. I have always known I was female but growing up in the fifties and sixties hid my desires trying to fit in by being a jock trying to date attractive girls in fact I married my high school sweetheart thinking that would drive this perversion from me. I would buy her clothes I wanted to wear but which she never felt comfortable in when making love to her I would try and encourage her to take the lead again to no avail. I have always found myself attracted to men often thinking of making love with them but always as a woman dressed as I felt any other woman would dress. I have gotten to the point of finally knowing that my true gender has come to the forefront but my sexuality is still up in the air so my conclusion is I am sexually conflicted. I hope I made sense.

[sandra-leigh]

Oh sexual orientation. The only "justification" that I find myself doing is around the fact that I was (and continue to be) attracted to women, which fact portions of the TS community say "proves" that I cannot possibly be TS.

(Portions of the medical community too, such as the Blanchard autogynephilia hypothesis that only those MTF who knew from an extremely early age (e.g., 3-5) and were always and exclusively attracted to males, can "really" be MTF transsexual, and the rest need to be "cured" of their "fetish".)

[Kathryn Martin]

Thank you Nigella for clarifying, I really did not understand the question.

I have always been bi-sexual, that is attracted to men and women and have had both experiences when I was much younger, provided I was attracted the the person as a human being. I am also monogamous, and happened to be married to a woman.

I have never made a big deal out of being bi-sexual and have never thought I had to justify myself.

I do not believe that transsexuals ever would justify being of any sexual orientation by referencing it to their gender identity. That would suggest that gender determines who you are attracted to.

It just makes no sense to associate sexual orientation to the clothes you are wearing. I am the gender I am and of the sexual orientation I am, regardless of what I wear.

It's like saying whenever I have sex with a woman I wear pants, or when I have sex with a man I wear a skirt. I suspect if you do feel that way there is a fetishistic element involved because sexual arousal is determined by the gender of your partner and wearing appropriate heterosexual attire. That makes no sense at all.

[Saffron]

Oh sexual orientation. The only "justification" that I find myself doing is around the fact that I was (and continue to be) attracted to women, which fact portions of the TS community say "proves" that I cannot possibly be TS.

(Portions of the medical community too, such as the Blanchard autogynephilia hypothesis that only those MTF who knew from an extremely early age (e.g., 3-5) and were always and exclusively attracted to males, can "really" be MTF transsexual, and the rest need to be "cured" of their "fetish".)

that people reminds me at those who say that homosexuality is an illness that can be fixed.

[Linda St. John]

Well, thanks a lot guys.....now, at my age ...I find out I'm gay and....a lesbian !!
Thank God, I've long since given up sorting it all out. Que sera ,,sera !
Linda

[Lucy Lou]

I do totally agree with Laurie Ann here. I found that I wanted my partners to ware what I wanted to ware and do what I wanted to do. I have never had an experience with a man, but seeing as I have cross dressed for about 25 years, and wanted someone to find me attractive I feel that it is only a matter of time before i really know what it is like to feel like a real woman. Society has a lot to answer to. if it was cool to be what ever you wanted to be and everyone just accepted it we would not have to try and justify our behavior. Sexuality is something that we all have to deal with. Lucy

[Anna Lorree]

Well I was telling everybody I'm straight, but I'm not! Once I started to transition I became a lesbian.:heehee:

Now I'm reading that sometimes people on HRT change their sexual preference. So I could become straight again so just put me down as confused with an excuse.:D

Yes, this is a recorded and somewhat studied phenomenon. Read "When The Opposite Sex Isn't", by Sandra L. Samons. It is based on the author's clinical experiences treating MtF GID patients. There are many on this very board who have reported a similar experience (having been attracted to and often married to a female, transitioning and now being attracted to men). I don't think it is nearly as clearly understood as I at least wish it were, and I have done a lot more reading on it than the average schmo on the streets. I know that I find it fascinating, as does my therapist and my psychology professors.

It has potentially huge political ramifications. The gay and lesbian communities contend that orientation is 100% fixed at birth, yet there are those within the TS community that seem to defy the fixed orientation rule. Some would say those TS who seem to switch their interest were just confused gays all along, but that seems like a glass is half empty versus half full argument. It's all a matter of how you look at it, the perspective you take. Personally, I want to know the scientific, spiritual, medical and physiological truth about the relationship between gender and sexuality, as well as the possibility of a person changing their orientation. Keep politics out of it for me, show me facts.

Anna

[Marleena]

Yes, this is a recorded and somewhat studied phenomenon. Read "When The Opposite Sex Isn't", by Sandra L. Samons. It is based on the author's clinical experiences treating MtF GID patients. There are many on this very board who have reported a similar experience (having been attracted to and often married to a female, transitioning and now being attracted to men). I don't think it is nearly as clearly understood as I at least wish it were, and I have done a lot more reading on it than the average schmo on the streets. I know that I find it fascinating, as does my therapist and my psychology professors.



Thanks Anna! It's so difficult to prove any case studies are accurate as they are usually small samplings and somebody is always quick to try and disprove them or explain them away. So I dare not state it as a fact. I hope one day scientists are given funding from some source to study transsexual issues in more depth and give us clear answers. I'm not going to hold my breath though. The study of fruit flies seems to be more important to "them" than human beings.

[Megan Briana]

:D

And yeah... the rest of the world is far more confused about my gender and my sexuality than I am. It's all pretty darn clear to me!

Absolutely! I know where I am and if those around me dont see me or come looking, then I wont be seen or found by them. They may not know my secrets, but neither have they come asking about them.

[Bree-asaurus]

It has potentially huge political ramifications. The gay and lesbian communities contend that orientation is 100% fixed at birth, yet there are those within the TS community that seem to defy the fixed orientation rule. Some would say those TS who seem to switch their interest were just confused gays all along, but that seems like a glass is half empty versus half full argument. It's all a matter of how you look at it, the perspective you take. Personally, I want to know the scientific, spiritual, medical and physiological truth about the relationship between gender and sexuality, as well as the possibility of a person changing their orientation. Keep politics out of it for me, show me facts.

Anna

Societal pressures can do amazing things to a person. The "changing of sexuality" found in transsexuals is no different than the "changing of sexuality" in gays and lesbians. There are many gays, lesbians and transsexuals who have repressed their true sexual identities and only came to terms with them later in life.

It isn't a rare story to hear of someone who grows up assuming they are attracted to one sex, assuming their odd feelings about it are normal or feel like they can make themselves be attracted to that sex if they try hard enough. They invest in this false attraction and build families and lives on it only to realize down the road that there is a reason it felt so weird to try to be 'normal' or that they couldn't make themselves be the person they were trying to be.

I thought I was attracted to women. I thought my performance issues were normal. I thought my awkwardness with women was just because I was a social retard. I had no desire to flirt with women and thought that other guys were just born smoother with the ladies than I or were more experienced at it. I never realized that I could just be "in the moment" with a partner... I thought being in my head the whole time was normal. I thought that me noticing how handsome or cute other guys were was just me being honest while other guys had to lie to be macho. Guess what I found out a little later in life? My sexuality didn't change... I just finally put together all the pieces and had one of those "AHA!!!" moments.

My first date with a guy was awesome. It felt natural, we flirted with ease and it was just plain ol' fun! Nothing like dating women... what a chore!

[Saffron]

I agree with you Bree.

Also, for TS it could be even more difficult or confusing, since your body doesn't match your gender identity.

Then you fully transition to find out that you really liked women or men, but as a your current gender and not the one you body was.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the facts for me are that i never considered being with a man ever.. now i do..

what the means and why are not important to me at this point..

if you are questioning your gender and trying to decide how to live your best quality of life by either transitioning, or considering transition, every single moment you spend pondering your sexuality is wasted, and in fact, may be clouding your judgement around the much bigger issue that you need to deal with..

[Jennifer Sophia]

I agree with Kaitlyn Michele, transgenderism and sexuality are two seperate issues, one does not affect the other. Before we start learning we might think these two things are intertwined, me included.

The last time my dad was in town I had him come to one of my therapy appointments. It went well, but he asked if I was gay during the session. It made me stop and think to myself, why did it matter if I was gay? I wasn't offended, but that was not the reason we were there. I answered as best I could, and that was it.

[Bree-asaurus]

if you are questioning your gender and trying to decide how to live your best quality of life by either transitioning, or considering transition, every single moment you spend pondering your sexuality is wasted, and in fact, may be clouding your judgement around the much bigger issue that you need to deal with..

Yup.

Find out who YOU are... and THEN you can worry about who you are attracted to. Better yet, when you do find yourself attracted to somebody, don't question and ponder and worry... just go for it. Who cares why?

[Rianna Humble]

The last time my dad was in town I had him come to one of my therapy appointments. It went well, but he asked if I was gay during the session. It made me stop and think to myself, why did it matter if I was gay? I wasn't offended, but that was not the reason we were there. I answered as best I could, and that was it.

As a TS, I would have had to ask him to define what he meant by that question - was he referring to you being attracted to people of your natal sex or people of your gender? My specialist refuses to use the terms gay/straight etc but asks who you are attracted to.